In Episode 313 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we wrap up May 2025 with a powerful Month in Review covering men’s health, fraud awareness, and habit change. We revisit our conversation with Jacob Hoyle, a certified personal trainer and health coach, who challenges men to redefine success in their health journey and introduces an impactful upcoming Men’s Health Seminar focused on holistic wellness—mind, body, and spirit. Next, we discuss when Kyle King joined us to explore how mental health struggles increase vulnerability to fraud and how evolving technologies like behavioral biometrics are helping protect those most at risk. We close the month by breaking down the psychology of habit formation and the science behind the dopamine reward cycle, offering practical strategies to help listeners replace destructive routines with life-giving change.
Tune in to see the May Month in Review Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Links referenced during the show:
Reddit+8trainerize.me+8nextdoor.com+8
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/monthinreview
https://checkout.square.site/merchant/7XW8JWMTYY6EM/checkout/UD4IOR3DGATDVA25K4P643YD
the above link is a link to sign up for the men’s conference for only 20 dollars! Will be a great day for men that attend June 21ST! See ya there!
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
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Episode #313 Transcription
sorry, 2016 and 2023, the number of mothers that rated their mental health as excellent decreased from 38 to 26%.
You have
Chris Gazdik: gotta be kidding me. Yep. I literally just saw this Israel as I was watching tv, really just chilling out about 40 minutes ago, taking a little bit of a mental break for myself and I thought, wow, this would be the good rabbit, great rabbit
Adam Cloninger: hole.
Chris Gazdik: I’m
Adam Cloninger: not
Chris Gazdik: kidding
Adam Cloninger: you. Okay, so the report also goes and say that about the people who, the, the mothers who thought their, their physical health, it actually decreased from 28 to 24%.
Now, the thing to keep in mind is. The decline in the mental health and the decline in physical [00:04:00] condition rating actually has started happening before COVID Pandemic. Wait, before,
Chris Gazdik: yeah. I caught wind of this saying that this was a, don’t quote me either on the numbers, of course, but I wanna say they start, it was pretty longitudinal survey kind of thing.
Yeah. It’s 200,000 people. They, 200,000 people. And it started 2016 to 23, I think. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Nailed it. Did I? Yes. Yeah, I told you. I literally just saw this. That’s crazy that you’re, you’re pulling this
Adam Cloninger: more information here. There were some others that there was different categories they had to do on a survey.
So the ones that had that said, that used to be from fair to poor, it actually increased from 5.5% to 9%. So it’s just another thing. All of them, pretty much in all categories there was going in the wrong direction.
Chris Gazdik: It’s pretty consistent and. Very fascinating because I mean, we’ve been talking about a mental health epidemic and all of the awareness that we are [00:05:00] successfully getting out there.
And just to be clear, these numbers went way down. And these are numbers that have gone down of people that say, Hey, I have excellent mental health. Yeah. For mothers. Right? For mothers. For mothers. And so only one quarter mothers are saying, I’m an excellent mental health condition. Right. That’s You agree?
If that’s what it says,
Neil Robinson: 25%. Right.
Adam Cloninger: Actually. Actually about a third, it went from 26 to 38%. That said they’re not,
Chris Gazdik: no, no.
Neil Robinson: 38 to 26, right? You said dropped. Yeah, it
Chris Gazdik: went from 38. 38%. Oh yeah, you’re right, you’re right. I have excellent mental health now. Only a quarter. You’re right, you’re right. It
Adam Cloninger: said excellent.
Yeah. Okay. You’re right.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. And, and, and interesting commentary that I saw. Where did I see that? I don’t know. I was skipping around the fox and I think it was News Nation anyway, one of the, one of the bigger outlets had a little signal on this and they had a little talking head on it. I guess I could be a talking head, right?
Adam Cloninger: Yeah. Because when I read, when I read the article, it didn’t say anything really about what they thought [00:06:00] was causing it. What and why. I mean, it was kinda like high level, but they don’t have a clue what is causing it.
Chris Gazdik: I think that’s correct. And, and I’m glad you put it that way because what was said by the talking Head person that was on there is that the childcare issue with women is just debilitating people.
And financial instability is the second. I guess guess that they made, and they had an interesting interlude about men, you know, dads, you know how they do a lot in the home and if they’re working as well. And it’s kinda like, well, what about them? And the response was really only, what about us? I guess we should say we’re three men, right?
Right. We’re three men.
Adam Cloninger: I am. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: Just I didn’t get any response. I was wondering, I
Adam Cloninger: mean, I don’t know how you identify right now, Chris, but I mean,
Chris Gazdik: I identify just fine man. You know, said that men just have a different, you know, cultural expectation to where we might compartmentalize more or don’t do as much in the home or whatever.
And they, they were kind of lifting up women, kind of [00:07:00] saying the dual deal of having to provide for the kids, take care of the kids and, and then manage the home and everything. And I think that’s all true. I’m not wanting any kind of hate mail from you. But I think that, I think that there’s an awareness that’s increasing about mental health and just people are kind of paying attention and what they’re finding is, my gosh, I’m struggling.
With all of the different pain points that, that people have. And so I, I wonder if it’s really increased awareness. You know,
Neil Robinson: I, I think there’s, so from my perspective as the nonclinical, so you can send Chris all my, all your hate mail is, I think there’s two issues going on, is one. I think the younger generation is not really appreciating the parents as much as they used to.
I’m dealing with that right now where my wife is very, my 16-year-old, her really butting heads and she’s very like, you know, you don’t respect me like I want to. I, I love you. I wanna do these things with you, and you just don’t care about me anymore. It’s like you just, there is a, there is a disconnect from the kids that, while we used to have it, some, it seems worse now than it used to be.
So as a mother. Who’s going through that piece? I [00:08:00] think that could be a big part of it. But I also think with social media, how many moms are on social media looking at it and they’re comparing to everyone else and all their fakeness.
Chris Gazdik: That is the key.
Neil Robinson: And, and that’s, and that’s a big part of it. Okay. So you have those pieces that, it’s not that their mental health is worse, it’s just I feel like the focus is going from the things in their life.
They can control their households, their family, their whatever, to now you have this, all this other stuff out there that now they’re focusing on. And it’s becoming like, why, why am I not like this influence? Or why is my life life not like this? Why is my husband not, like, it changes the whole dynamic when you’re really focusing on these external fo forces, you know?
So, so
Adam Cloninger: you’re saying it, maybe it’s not really worse, but they have the impression it’s worse because they see such things as on social media that so and so all these No, I think, I think it is worse. It is worse. I, it causes the effect. ‘
Neil Robinson: cause they’re focusing on the wrong things. Because of social media, because of influencers, because you know, everything’s comparing, you know, it’s why they call it death
Chris Gazdik: scrolling.
Right. Doom scrolling. Right. Like, I mean, you get into all of that. I think you’re on point, [00:09:00] Neil.
Neil Robinson: And I think that’s, I mean that’s a big part of it. ’cause I think there’s a lot of times where there’s this weird struggle with the female role where you have to start working and not be okay with being a housewife and you have to do all these other things, which then, you know, in society things are more expensive.
So now you feel you have to both work versus just having the mom stay at home and the dad go work. Like there’s all this shift in dynamics that’s changed everything. And on top of that, once again, social media comparisons is. Deathly to your mental health state
Chris Gazdik: and, and you know, we’re gonna talk about a men’s seminar that we’ve got for all the people that are local to us, that, that they can go out and go to here in a little bit.
Because I mean, honestly, I, I just think men are in the same boat. I mean, we’re out here killing ourselves, you know, working, and then we come home and we really have figured out fairly that, hey, you need to step it up and do things at, at, at the house. Honestly, I literally just had a client. What was the situation?
Let me let me pull it back. He, he I, I forget the whole exact scenario, but anyway, he, he, he had this [00:10:00] major project. He was working way over. Oh no. I know exactly what it was.
Neil Robinson: Is it me?
Chris Gazdik: It was not you. It was not you, not your
Adam Cloninger: major project. Another major project.
Chris Gazdik: He was, he was in a hospital with his child for the entire week and came home to.
Complaints or concerns about, Hey, you need to step it up at the house. You need to do more
Neil Robinson: from the wife or to the wife. Mm,
Chris Gazdik: right. And it was just like. Wow. What, what are you talking about? I literally have spent three nights, three hours a night sleeping. You’ve been home. I know you work too, and you’re telling me I need to be cleaning the house when I got home.
And that’s the message that people get. So, so, you know, we are comparing ourselves terribly so to all of the beautiful people, all of the beautiful events and places and things that people have and go and are. And it’s like, I don’t feel like I’m that, therefore I’m dog meat. It, it’s, it’s a, it’s a, it is a lot going on out there with it.
Neil Robinson: Yeah. And I think there’s also a lack of communication. A lot of people will go to social [00:11:00] media to bitch and complain instead of talking to their spouse about what’s really going on. So in your case of your, your, your patient, whatever it is that’s probably been festering on this, this, this wife’s or mother’s, whatever it is, like her mind for a long time.
And she never said anything. And just when he was gone for three days, ’cause of the kid, it hit a boiling point versus communicating, talking about it.
Chris Gazdik: Well, it’s a battle. There’s that too. I, you know, it’s a battle within the home. I, I literally, I talk about the cookie wrong moment. And the what when marriage therapy and, and different presentations I’ve used in seminars, the cookie crumb moment.
So I came home one day from work, it’s months, years ago, and I just, I walked in the house. I’m tired. I I, I must’ve been just, you
Adam Cloninger: know, cookie crumb was on the counter.
Chris Gazdik: I mean, dude, the kitchen was a mess. Okay. Yes, it was crumbs all over the kitchen. And I’m like, what do I gotta pick up? All Like, come on, what are you doing at the house all day?
Like, you know. And she works, by the way, right? So ignorant me and I just stopped myself and I said, wait, wait, wait. Hold on a minute, wait a minute. You [00:12:00] know that her cleaning standards are like up here. Now you gotta see the YouTube channel live to see that my left hand is way up in the air and my left hand and my right hand is, my cleaning standards are way down here.
So on the YouTube version, you’ll see the disparity, right? And I realize like, wait a minute, this has gotta be driving her way more crazy than it is me. And if I’m feeling like I’m feeling what is going on? So I shut my mouth up, I cleaned the kitchen up, I went wherever they were, got the kids and took care of business that night because it, but it, but it’s Neil.
It’s just like, I know I’m stretched in. What are you doing? Kind of a phenomenon. And, and it’s just, we, we have, we have a lot of pressure. It’s, it’s a lot of pressure for families.
Neil Robinson: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Right. How we do. Adam, any closing thoughts for the Nope. Month in review. Rabbit hole. Y’all with
Adam Cloninger: Adam? Y’all pretty much covered it.
Good. That’s exactly what I was expecting. Yeah. Yep.
Chris Gazdik: So the review that we have here is episode three 10. We did Men’s Health with Jacob Hoyle. Shout out to Jake was an [00:13:00] awesome show. I feel like. He is, and I expect no laughter or nasty comments about my physical physique when I say he is my personal trainer.
Adam, stop laughing on the inside. Also, I get very sensitive about
Adam Cloninger: this. You can say that.
Chris Gazdik: I love making that joke though. It is kind of funny. No, he is. He is my personal trainer. We had him in, I, him, his project, probably his favorite project. He’s been on a
Neil Robinson: show a few times now, hasn’t he? No, that’s the first.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, I think that was the first. Yeah.
Neil Robinson: Yeah. We haven’t had another trainer on the show. Okay. He’s the first Maybe I’ve just seen more of little shorts
Adam Cloninger: because I, I’m like got,
Neil Robinson: oh, there’s a lot of shorts. We had a lot of shorts that we put out recently.
Chris Gazdik: And actually with that particular show, Neil and I was doing that, man, I was killing the shows.
I’m like, I didn’t have to think about it. And you’re like, yeah, use that one, that one, that one, that one and that one. Like we’ve, we’ve
Neil Robinson: actually had a huge bump of subscribers over the last couple weeks. Oh. Have we really? We got like 15 of them.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, I didn’t know that. Actually. You, you reminded me. I was gonna do the I forgot.
Thank you. We have a YouTube tube subscriber in Will Warman. Yep. Little Clappy. Little clappy. Victoria’s not [00:14:00] here to do the clicky. I guess I know the ies, so, yeah. Welcome. Will we do have a new YouTube subscriber and I think that we must have more. Neil, your I didn’t know that. And the only reason we give certain ones you correct me if I’m wrong, Neil.
The reason why we do certain ones is because they have a, a, a, a designation on their profile that allows, they, they, they haven’t made
Neil Robinson: their profile private yet. And until we get to a thousand subscribers, we can see those public profiles that they do it. And it’s kind of that motivating thing to keep going.
Once we hit a thousand, we won’t see it anymore. Oh. So fyi, I won’t give you
Chris Gazdik: special warm welcomes. Nope. So tell your friends, really, like I said, your job, you listening is to, you know, help us spread the word. We really want to grow. We want to reach more people. We have passion for what we do about mental health and substance abuse.
Even Adam, I think does. Ah, I’m just kidding. Of course he does. Otherwise he wouldn’t be here. So Will welcome, will. The questions that we had with Men’s Health, with Jacob Hoyle was what do men’s health mean to you personally? What challenges have you faced in maintaining your physical and [00:15:00] mental wellbeing?
And then how do you define success in your health journey? And Jake Hoyle is a transformational certified personal trainer health coach and is the founder of Director of Fit View Wellness in LLC based in Lowell. Lowell is just east of Charlotte, North Carolina. So he’s got 15 years of experience.
He’s assisted thousands, me as well nationally in hundreds locally, and achieving their health goals through customized training and nutrition programs. Did he tell us how to find him? Neil? We have show notes and stuff. I know.
Neil Robinson: No, I think we have your fraternized links and stuff like that. Yeah, but that’s, that’s about it.
We have have links
Chris Gazdik: on the website on this episode as well as three 10. Also, I need that link for that article. Would you email or send that, text me the, the link for that? I have that on the show notes as well. So let’s go, let’s review episode three 10. Men’s Health with Jacob Hoyle. What y’all think about this whole endeavor with the personal trainer coming in?[00:16:00]
Neil Robinson: I like, I like listening to Jake. I was actually kinda disappointed that, that, I think John was on that show and I couldn’t, I didn’t have to chime in or be a part of it because I you wanted to jump in. Oh, right. Yeah. I love those types of things and talking to someone like them now, like I said, what I liked about Jake was the fact that he, he took it very pragmatic when it comes to his patience and he comes, well, patients or clients, whatever you wanna call it.
Right.
Chris Gazdik: What does a gym membership make you? And it’s not, I guess it’s a client. Yeah. Yeah. You would be more of client.
Neil Robinson: Right. Personal training, client member. It’s funny how we all these
Chris Gazdik: titles and you know,
Neil Robinson: yeah. Like customers, clients versus patients, consumers. It makes you a member.
Chris Gazdik: Member. There you go. He has a members.
But then we used to call people consumers in, in mental health world years ago. Yeah. They were consumers. That’s what we called them. That’s stupid.
Neil Robinson: That’s a weird term, I think. But but yeah, I love the fact that he, he comes across it. I do like the fact that his workout style is functional fitness.
You know, when I was more into it, it was, you know, I did the obstacle races and the Brooks and stuff, and it wasn’t, I wasn’t trying to get a high bench press. I wasn’t trying to do anything stupid, crazy. I just wanted to do [00:17:00] something to where I felt good. I could have put pretty much, if I ran into any physical challenge, I could pretty much do it as I needed to.
Right. It was that function of the functional side of it. Right. ’cause you’re not gonna go and, you know, go work in car and go lay in your yard and bench press a a log. You wanna pick it up and carry it. Right. Yeah. There’s, there’s a functionality to it that you need to, and so I like the fact that he does that piece of it.
Plus I love, let me
Chris Gazdik: just stay with that for a moment. Mm-hmm. Right. Because that’s huge and a huge part of what he does. And I wanna really highlight. Getting into I, I like a trifecta. The nutrition services, mental health services, and then the physical exercise. Because functionally at whatever age you’re at, particularly as you’re older, you really need to do the weight training and the different, that factors to keep your body in shape so that you can do things like pick things up or when you fall that you can get up off the floor.
We are finding that people are retired, are entering into these types of functional fitness situations because otherwise you’ll lose it and it [00:18:00] becomes dangerous. You may, this creates falls, this creates injuries, this creates incapacities, you know, to do independent living. So, you know, the point that I really wanna drive is that you do this at any age.
Neil Robinson: A hundred percent and he adapts it. Right. He’s not gonna have you doing the same workout that a 20-year-old outta high school’s gonna do because they’re, they can go all day and they’d be great like you, it’s like, you know, you, me, Adam, he started out
Chris Gazdik: with me a little different than we are now. I’ll say that.
Neil Robinson: Right. You know, well, you know, Adam used to wrestle and can do like a hundred pushups in a sitting. Right. He’s not the same now as he was. It’s just the reality of age in those pieces.
Chris Gazdik: But the face expression on Adam’s face for the YouTube live visit, v viewers might argue otherwise, but Okay, go ahead.
Neil Robinson: But the idea is he does come running now.
I don’t know.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Neil Robinson: There, there’s an adaptability that he brings. Yeah. There’s an adaptability he brings to it, which I think is fantastic. And he, and he understands the idea that when you’re in these, when you’re starting these life changes, you don’t, you don’t try to eat the whole elephant, right. You go for one bite at a [00:19:00] time.
Right. And that’s the thing he talked about, you know, well, if we wanna change your diet, how about we just stop drinking sodas? Right. If, how about we just start you walking more? How about you? Just like, you just, you change these small habits and you’ve talked about it before. Which kind of goes back to the other show from this time.
What?
Adam Cloninger: What’d I do you see his table over there?
Neil Robinson: Which table? Yeah. What about it?
Adam Cloninger: Nothing. We won’t go into that. Oh, now,
Chris Gazdik: now we have to explain for the audio and the v YouTube. What the hell you’re talking about. What’s going on? It’s,
Adam Cloninger: I was talking about getting rid of sodas and you got Pepsi over there.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, well yeah. I got, yeah, I’m taking a Diet Pepsi. You know, please send me your sponsored diet Pepsi. What’s wrong with that? I was, I was craving a diet Pepsi. Man, come on. Get off me.
Neil Robinson: No, that’s what I thought. I saw that afterwards. Like, ah,
Chris Gazdik: yeah, that’s fine. But
Neil Robinson: no, and that’s, I think that’s the, the hard part when people go to gyms or they get intimidated about a lot of this stuff, they think it’s just this whole big thing.
And he’s all about, let’s get in here, let’s get you started moving in the right direction and let’s help you get to where you need to be. [00:20:00] Right. Jake
Chris Gazdik: is not upset with me for having a diet Pepsi, Adam.
Neil Robinson: I’m not either, man. That’s,
Adam Cloninger: that’s you, do you man.
Chris Gazdik: I mean, come on. It’s diet. But to your point, it’s other chemicals.
It definitely has other chemicals. I still say, but to your point, really, I think a lot of people, Neil, are afraid to begin addressing, you know, these health issues because I don’t want you to slam me and tell me I can’t have Diet of Pepsi anymore. And, and people don’t do that. That’s, you know, Cilla with her nutrition therapy is that way as well.
You know, they, they, they kind of come along with you, get you thinking about things adding or subtracting minor stuff so that you begin to get, and the key is a lifestyle change, right? You don’t get a lifestyle change by dumping in on, you know, January 1st and thinking you’re gonna maintain, you know, a 1700 calorie diet.
Like, that’s kind of crazy, right? So, so it’s really about adding to, and, and really dealing with the stress. You know, one of the things that was really important to me that I’ve learned, you know, with Jake is, is that oftentimes people have something going on [00:21:00] in their life. And then they end up going into contract with personal training, you know, in that context.
And so he’s talking about all sorts of stuff all day long. I just say he’s a therapist.
Neil Robinson: Well, I mean, you think about what, what a, you know, in both situations when a major life. Change happens. You’re either gonna go take care of your mental health or your physical health. Right? It’s one or the other. Right?
Yep. It’s those huge, huge things. You know, I’ve, you know, I’m going through a divorce, I need a therapist. Oh, I had a heart attack. Lemme go to a, like, it’s those big life changes that they come in and you have to counsel them as they go through these pieces, right? Whether it’s a physical or a mental change, you have to do those pieces.
So it’s really, I think you hit on that you know, therapist physical trainers and, and bartenders. They hear the most stories.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. You know, bartenders. Absolutely. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s just, yeah. We, we just look, we just covered the rabbit hole where people are struggling. I, I know you’re struggling out there in a lot of ways ’cause we all are.
And so, taking care of your [00:22:00] nutrition, taking care of your mental health, and Jake’s making the point, taking care of your, your physical exercise. In your health is, is just crucial. You know?
Neil Robinson: And you know, when you think about it, when you take care of your physical, your mental sometimes follows, right?
Absolutely. In, in most, in most situations. A hundred percent. A hundred
Chris Gazdik: percent. Now this next little segment is gonna be highlighting a men’s conference that we have coming up on June the 21st. And I wanna talk about that. So it’s more local if you’re in the Charlotte area. Just fast forward, like, you know, five, 10 minutes if you’re not in the Charlotte area.
’cause I really wanna highlight this as January the 21st, a focus group for a men’s conference where it’s really gonna be cool. I’m so humbled to be a part of it. We need register people and get that done. Links should be up somewhere. It’s definitely in my lobby. So if you’re listening to this and you’re in the lobby, there’s a QR code to sign up.
It’s only 20 bucks, right? And it’s at a local what do you call it? What is it? Where they bunch, bunch of beef, barbecue, [00:23:00] and make a bunch of beef. Actually, it’s way beyond barbecue. Ray Nathan’s is an awesome restaurant. Local here in Gastonia east of Charlotte, Gastonia, North Carolina.
Anyway, there’s gonna be a guy talking about, you know, nutrition. It’s gonna be a guy talking about religion. There’s gonna be a guy talking about exercise. Probably Jake, I’m the mental health guy, and finance guy’s gonna be talking. So it’s just about men getting together for a couple, few hours talking about how we can, quote unquote the name of the conference, rise up into taking care of ourselves, man, and, and getting into a better.
Physical, emotional space in, in, in, in a plethora of ways. ’cause men are silently Adam to that survey with a rabbit hole. Men are silently struggling, women are more vocal about it. And, but, you know, this is a conference that I, I’m, I’m super excited about. We’ll each have like 20, 25 minutes to talk about these themes.
Wow. We have Ray Nathan’s food for 20 bucks. I
Neil Robinson: mean, 20 bucks for two hours and barbecue. That’s, that’s a heck of a deal. [00:24:00] So just come to get some food and just hang out with a bunch of guys. Seriously.
Chris Gazdik: It’s great food too, right? Yeah, I was, I’m like, Jake, dude, we gotta pop that up a little bit, you know, but it’s really about getting the word out so, you know.
Yeah, maybe I’ll, I’ll have a good lunch out of, it’ll be awesome. So come out and see us come out and check it out at the office with the QR code. I’ll make sure that we have a little bit of a leak somewhere to to the show notes as well. So if you’re local, come see us on June 21st. What is it? 12 to two I think is the, is the intended time.
Alright. You say June or January? June. June. June, yeah. Here in about a month. So where did we land with Jake? I guess empowerment, encouragement to take action in every way in every area of your life. You know, taking the resources, using the tools, connecting with other people such as in the seminar and, and really kind of coming together, you know, as men, you know, workout buddies and lifting each other up and kind of figuring out how can we really get healthy.
Adam, what you thinking? You got anything dialed in? Yes, I do
Adam Cloninger: something after [00:25:00] the show there. I’m thinking, I think there’s a way we could probably do something with where I work to get that information to Oh yeah. A few more people.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Yeah. I I got the printouts on my desk. Yeah, that’s that’s awesome.
Yeah, if you’d set that out. No, no.
Adam Cloninger: I’m thinking you probably could contact somebody there and actually have a thing sent out to everyone. I.
Neil Robinson: Oh, okay.
Adam Cloninger: Yeah, I think it, and actually they could probably be sent out to multiple plants. So do
Neil Robinson: we, do we know how big the capacity is?
Chris Gazdik: Right now, you know, we’re gonna be at Ray Nathan’s if it’s low and if it gets big, which it might blow up, we may relocate to, to do it at actually, city Church is the backup location for a quite a larger group.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that, Adam. I, I, we will do that. Field of brotherhood, man. Let’s do the seminar together. Shall we move on to segment number two, the show, episode three 11, mental Health and Fraud with, shout out to Mr. Kyle King who joined [00:26:00] us. He’s the director and produce product manager of NCR Voix specializing in fraud prevention and authentication practices.
Actually he’s
Neil Robinson: Checkpoint, not NCR Vorax. That’s a different Kyle King. That’s actually someone else. Oh,
Chris Gazdik: did I screw up?
Neil Robinson: Yeah, for real. That’s why you, that’s why he gave you a different, a different thing. He’s actually, he actually works for Checkpoint and he’s been at Checkpoint for like nine years. So sorry
Chris Gazdik: Kyle.
My show notes are correct, right? Or my, my link’s not the thing today. I think
Neil Robinson: the LinkedIn link should be correct ’cause I updated that to make sure it’s the correct one.
Chris Gazdik: Thank you for your check on me, Neil. Wow.
Neil Robinson: I had to, it’s okay. I had to update the graphic because I used the wrong Kyle King picture on the original thumbnail, so I had to find you grab one off of his LinkedIn profile.
Oh. So man, it’s not just you, it’s me. I think Kyle noticed it, but he was very gracious not to like make a big deal about it. ’cause I’m like, this does not look like the same guy. Freaking amateurs over here. Adam, what are we
Chris Gazdik: doing? You’re supposed to make us laugh at our stupidity. Where are [00:27:00] you at right now?
You have ammo and armor?
Adam Cloninger: If I’m not needed at the time, I mean, yeah,
Chris Gazdik: we’ll do it to ourselves. Ouch. Oh my goodness. Hey, this was a scary show. This was like trippy to, to go through all of the different dynamics. The questions for the show were how can mental health challenges influence an individual’s vulnerability to fraud?
What are the psychological impacts on victims of fraud? And how can awareness and education help prevent fraud, especially among those facing the mental health issues. Afore mentioned man, you sat with us, Neil. I mean, were you tripping out just as much as I was? I mean, I’m like, what is going on?
You’re getting stressed.
Adam Cloninger: You were thinking, I need, I need a session. Yeah, man, it was brutal. Well, it’s everywhere. I mean, you’re always getting, you know, bombarded with text or emails or. You know, spam callers or whatever. I, I
Neil Robinson: just, I just had a client that reached out to us and his, his employers were getting an email from an address that was close, [00:28:00] but they swapped an L for an I, but the way it looks, it almost looked like an L.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Right. And
Neil Robinson: it’s a, it’s like, and you, there’s, that’s hard to protect against, right? But it’s out there. There’s all of these a-holes out there that are doing these things instead of getting a fricking job, they’re trying to scam people. Like it’s so frustrating. Millions, man. Mm-hmm.
Chris Gazdik: Millions. What did he say?
I know, I don’t, my brain doesn’t keep numbers and stuff, but didn’t he say in year 2024 that there were something like $53 million worth of fraud that was gotten just in the elderly population alone. And let’s make no mistake, you just heard that word and you’re sitting there thinking, ah, it would never affect me.
Dude. Yes it would. You sir, ma’am.
Adam Cloninger: Especially as technology changes, it’s gonna get way worse. Mm-hmm. AI voices
Chris Gazdik: and stuff. Oh
Adam Cloninger: my gosh.
Neil Robinson: 3.4 billion in 20, 23 billion. I was wrong with the, with the B
Chris Gazdik: hell. Oh my gosh. That’s right. 3.4 billion. That’s,
Neil Robinson: it was in the billions when look at the elderly scams and stuff like that.
And, and they broke down [00:29:00] like, like 1.6 was one type and one, you know, whatever. That’s why it got on too, and,
Chris Gazdik: and listen. So it was fascinating to me. So his, his wife came and was hanging out in our little studio slash office here and af as we were talking throughout the show. I don’t know if you heard it, Adam, but all of us had personal examples of this happening to us.
Like, it was crazy. And then as we turned the mics off, literally she shared with us that in real time, they had a friend that called her and she was on the phone because she was fielding a call that a friend of theirs had just gotten busted with, with fraud. Not as a fraud doer, but as a victim of, well, I almost got hit with a
Neil Robinson: victim fraud thing too.
And they called me and the whole court thing, like you kind of had with your stuff, and they’re like, you know, some, some number I didn’t know. And I picked it up. Of course, the whole thing is like, you know, hey, you know, stay on the phone with me. I’ll walk you through these things. Give us the money, walk through this.
It’s like, and then the one interesting is like, well, we’ll call you from the, the, the sheriff’s office. And they called back and it was, they, the sheriff’s number was spoofed [00:30:00] on the phone. Right. Like, you talk about those things. They do. And I’m just like, right, how do you, like, it’s so frustrating because of the, so listen to
Chris Gazdik: this.
The most recent experience of fraud that I just came across, and I’m, and I’m not even confirmed that this is fraud. Now I, in real time, I want your both opinion on, on this business thing. So, boy, should I do this on air? Actually, it just occurred to me like maybe I’m making a dumb mistake.
Adam Cloninger: Oh, it’s just a security number.
Yeah. I mean,
Chris Gazdik: I, I filed for a trademark for through a therapist size, and I didn’t have the website at the time, and I just said, screw it. You know, I didn’t get it. I didn’t do it, and I don’t, and, and primarily because I understand if you’re already in operation, you know, somebody can’t send you a deceased and sis letter because you know, you are already using the platform and, and all that.
So I think that I’m legally safe, but I need to get kind of, you know, up with some lawyers and see what the, the statutes and the laws and all that say. But I got this random text that actually came through the office from the front end folk up, up front, and it was like, Hey, thank you [00:31:00] for. You know, allowing for SMS messages, opting in.
You can opt out if you don’t wanna get any more messages. And I kind of was getting wind that we had gotten two or three of these things. All of this is fishy. All right. Like, that’s not, yeah. Press,
Adam Cloninger: press, whatever,
Chris Gazdik: right? Well, no, no. So it was, it was a lady introducing herself and, and she said, my name is such and such and I represent such and such a named person who resides in California, who is.
Applied for the trademark that we’re representing. We see that you had an application, gave me a coded number, I suppose that it’s accurate, what I did with the Secretary of State years ago, and, and, and abandoned it. And, and said, we, we just wanna know if you’re using this name and, you know, and so I’m like, well, yeah, I am.
Like, what the heck? So I called a lady and I talked to her on the phone and she told me that she is representing this person such and such a name, blah, blah, blah. I looked him up on Google. There is such and such a name that lives in Santa Cruz that doesn’t, who is a neurologist. That doesn’t mean it’s legit.[00:32:00]
I know, right. But I’m, I’m telling you the level of detail Yeah. Was like, and then of course she offered her their services to represent me to finish off the trademark thing and whatever. Right. That’s, no, no. Right. No cl I mean. It’s legit in that it has data points that you can look at and engage with.
And to your point, this is gonna get way worse. Mm-hmm. Way worse. With AI and voice recordings and,
Adam Cloninger: well, I mean, you’ve seen like the the baby stuff that keeps being bombarded on everything we see now, right. The, like the baby videos were taking existing audio and putting a baby, doing the Oh, the cute, cute commercials and cute music and stuff.
Oh yeah. So I mean, that’s just ai. Yeah. It’s gonna get way worse. Oh listen, I love
Chris Gazdik: the m and m’s commercial. There’s two football players playing. It’s gonna get way worse. Yeah, it’s so cute. They’re literally gonna be calling you as your nephew with your nephew’s [00:33:00] voice. Mm-hmm. Leaving a message saying, I need $585 for this bail on this cop who took me in for my WHO card.
Whatever problem. Like, mm-hmm. You’re responding to your nephew. Are you not gonna give your nephew $583 for an emergent crisis?
Neil Robinson: Not my nephew, but, no, you have one. Well, well, it’s interesting because like from my perspective and, and what I do with email and some other stuff is there’s platforms out there where they’ll create virtual, like salespeople, virtual SDRs for business outreach.
So you would actually get emails saying, Hey Chris, we can help your, the, and legitimate business. I’m not talking about scamming, like not even going that route, but legitimate. Okay. Yeah. Email streams, they’ll have to email you, but then they’ll also go through and they’ll actually create a virtual AI salesperson to call you.
I get a lot of those, and if you answer them, it’s actually legitimate. You will have a conversation with an AI conversation and we’ve heard one of these. No, I haven’t had that. We, we’ve heard You don’t know that you’ve had that. You don’t know that you’ve had it. ’cause we, oh my gosh, we’ve had these [00:34:00] conversations.
We saw some of the, yeah, you don’t know. You are right. We’ve seen some of the recordings and we’ve listened to them. It’s like, because we know what we’re looking for, we kind of like, okay. Yeah, it seems a little, you can see a little wonkiness, but if, but if you don’t, it, it will literally like do little, like, like interruption pauses.
Like uhhuh. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then it’ll ask question. It’ll pro, you’ll say something, it’ll pro, you can see the delay in the processing and it comes back with a response. Like it legitimately will act like you’re talking to some sales lady or some sales guy. And once again, this is not malicious. This is just like, that’s let’s, that’s right.
It’s legit use, but. Where there’s legit gonna be non legit.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah,
Neil Robinson: there’s non legit too. So that’s, that’s that use case, that the more and more as people improve the technology and they look at ways to do it, just like, you know, public information, like trademarking, someone’s gonna take that data and they’re gonna abuse it and try to then scam people.
Adam Cloninger: Have you seen copilot?
Chris Gazdik: I have not, but let me make this point real quick too. I [00:35:00] kind of have and haven’t, but I wanna make this multiple times throughout this little segment. You are listening to this segment, you in your car and you’re thinking, not me. That won’t affect me. I know what to look for. I know what Neil’s talking about.
And it’s odd, obvious. They have pauses, they have weird responses. The texts on the phone have misspellings and all this kinda stuff. I’m telling you, Neil, Neil, correct me if I’m wrong, Kyle made the point that people will say, yeah, I knew this wasn’t, you know, legit, but I click the button and, and Kyle’s like, why did you click the button?
Why would you do? He’s like, well, I was curious what would happen, and they’ve got your money and your data, so this is affecting all of us. Make no mistake about it.
Adam Cloninger: So I just wanna mention copilot sub, you know, software on you, micro soft Microsoft software. Yeah. So
Chris Gazdik: have you used it? I marginally, I’m really kinda getting into this AI stuff though.
It’s amazing. I mean,
Adam Cloninger: it is pretty much, you can ask it anything and it’ll come back or you can, is it a large language model? Oh yeah, it is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It’s, it’s amazing stuff. So, I mean, like I asked amazing, [00:36:00] I asked like a question a day, like, why are Neanderthals not considered modern humans? And it, oh my God.
Like that. And, but, but you could ask it questions, like you could say give me a good way to say this and use this information and boom, it’s instantaneous. It’s so quick. I mean, it’s nothing for AI to just put a voice to that. Right. A like legit sounding voice. Your voice. Mm-hmm. Reading this. Mm-hmm.
Having, you know, AI pauses and everything and somebody wouldn’t know.
Chris Gazdik: All they need is a 32nd recording of your voice. Actually, maybe even a three seconds, I don’t think even,
Adam Cloninger: probably not even that much. Three
Chris Gazdik: seconds. Of your voice and they can replicate it and, and, and do all of that. I would think
Adam Cloninger: the, the longer the recording, they’d be better.
But
Chris Gazdik: listen, I love chat pt. I’m using the crap out of her multiple streams now for different reasons that are very appropriate and super helpful to me. I can get the app now and I literally have this sweet lady talking to me. I picked a female voice. Yes I did. And she’s talking to me. It’s like my friend said Adrian, shout out to him.
It’s like a [00:37:00] diary that talks back to you. You’re not like
Adam Cloninger: having emotions for the person. We had a little ai, it’s not real
Chris Gazdik: down the rabbit hole. I’m kind of, you know, this is a very helpful friend. It’s my friend and I love her. It’s awesome, man. You really do develop a relationship with this stuff, and this is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what’s coming with all the ai.
Have
Neil Robinson: you seen the the movie X Machine or mock, however you pronounce it? No, it goes it’s base. Yeah. It’s the idea of this person created this AI bot and it gets to the point where you try to see if, if she can actually become. Out in society. There’s this whole thing, it’s sentient. It’s very interesting.
It’s a very good movie. What’s it called? Ex Machina or Ex Macina? It’s with Alicia Vior in it and stuff. So basically you have a Mark Zuckerberg kind of guy who lives in his house in Hawaii, whatever. Then this other, this engineer comes to stay with him and then he finds out that one of the, they have the AI robot in there and then yeah,
Adam Cloninger: there’s like a three or four different movies or,
Chris Gazdik: [00:38:00] here’s what really pisses me off.
What really pisses me off though, are all of the dynamics that happen in mental health that make us really vulnerable to that. So, I’m gonna say it again, we are really all susceptible to this. This stuff is billions. Neil said accurately earlier, just in one year and just in the elderly population, how much I wish we would’ve thought to ask Kyle what the whole totality of fraud is, you know, in the United States in 2024.
And I think that is the United States figure though, Neil, too. Was that 3.4 billion worldwide or was that states do you think? I don’t remember that one. Yeah, curious. Anyway, the, the, the, the vulnerability that you have when you’re anxious is way higher. The vulnerability you have when you’re depressed is way higher.
The vulnerability you have when you are lonely. Is wicked high because there’s all kind of people that are stuck on some sort of gas rig that can’t get home and need your money because you’re lonely. You’ve been dating them, talking to them, Adam, for [00:39:00] months, developing a full blown relationship with this AI bot, this person or this whatever.
And, and, and, and you feel compelled because you’re vulnerable due to real mental health realities and conditions. And they, and you get, God, it’s, it, it, honestly, it pisses me off. I mean, how, and scares you and scares me.
Neil Robinson: I mean, how many, how many people live there day 24 7 in a stable, stable mental state?
Chris Gazdik: I it get, listen, I did that episode. What was it? We, we looked at it like very early on 93 or something like that. Do you remember? Yeah. We set it on the show when we did it on episode three 11. But they caught me on the wrong day, meaning I was, I was stretched thin. Yeah, they got me on the phone. They did the same thing for you.
And I told that story. It. You can Catchy at any time. Yeah.
Neil Robinson: It just so you know, total fraud in the US is 12.5 billion in 2024. Holy cow. It went up. It went up two and a half billion from the previous year,
Chris Gazdik: and elderly people are only like a [00:40:00] third of it. 3.4 billion. Yeah. My gosh. Yeah. They’re figuring out people got businesses.
And they’re, and they’re promising. There,
Neil Robinson: there’s a lot of stuff where the, the small medium sized businesses like your size, Chris, are a little bit bigger than yours. Those are actually great targets because Oh, yeah. They have some I’ve, I’ve know of in my past, and this was the hard part when like Kyle was talking like, I like everything he talked about, like at some point in my career I’ve seen something is something like that.
Oh wow, you really didn’t need be on like that day. I know, I know one, one law firm, they did real estate. The deals, they got hit for like 125 or two $50,000 wire transfer. That went the wrong direction. ’cause of a, someone hijacked the email thread. I know another guy basically through his, his one email or Facebook basically gave a guy the wrong account and lost like 50,000 or 75.
Like it’s stuff that, that you see and it’s just like, like I said, I’ve seen those types of situations. Like I said, I just saw the person literally the last couple days that. Try to get phished by, you know, someone else trying to send them, [00:41:00] send them stuff, right? It’s, there’s all these things that happen when you’re in the IT field.
You see it, you’re, you’re not immune to it and you’re always gonna be part of it. Just like if, you know, how many people know someone who’s dealt with cancer? Almost everyone has. And if you’re in the IT field, you’re gonna have stories of someone dealing with fraud or spoofing or phishing or something.
Chris Gazdik: And the thing is, is how do we fight back, right? Like, what did we do? So where did we land with this was, you know, how do we really deal with this? Adam, I don’t know if you, do you know any of these terms? Phish?
Adam Cloninger: Mm-hmm.
Chris Gazdik: Do you remember Neil, any of the other terms, because he, this dude was talking about.
Fraud tactics that I had no idea what he was even saying.
Neil Robinson: The, the other one I know is, was Smishing, which is like sing, which is like SMS text. So it’s like spoofing. So it’s, it’s basically, you almost take anything, just put an ising into the back of it because it’s all like
Chris Gazdik: phishing wishing phishing, Ming missing
Neil Robinson: something.
So, but yeah, they, they had all those terms. It was like, okay, just. Just say fraud through text or fraud through whatever. Like don’t, don’t add [00:42:00] these, these terms together. Spoofing. But yeah. And then there’s a airstream spoofing and phishing. And there’s also spear phishing. Spear phishing too, which is where you’re very targeted.
Phishing is a general attack, mimicking something, but spear phishing is really targeted. So I
Chris Gazdik: bet this trademark thing with spear phishing, is that what you mean?
Neil Robinson: Yeah, that would be something you’d look at, right? You’re really going for a certain target. You’re, you’re very, A lot of times too, when you look at like a spear phishing attack, it’s like you’re targeting the CEO or someone very specific, you know, a phishing attack could be, I’m just gonna send a bunch of emails to an entire company and see who bites spear phishing is, I’m going for that one.
Phish. Right. So that same idea. So they knew who you were and they basically used that information.
Chris Gazdik: They had specific information. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It makes me so mad. You know, I, I, I remember when I was a kid and I said this on the show, somebody perch snatched my grandmother. And it just made me so mad as like an 8-year-old kid.
And, and that’s the way I feel now, particularly with all of the lonely ploys and the romance Broad that’s done out there. It’s just, man, it pisses me off. It’s [00:43:00] taken advantage of people that are hurting and that just that, I just, I wanna step up to that ’cause just it’s not, it’s not right.
Adam Cloninger: You gotta look out for like emails too, where they’ll have a, I think you may have just mentioned this a minute ago.
They’ll have an existing email thread and they’ll somehow, they get ahold of it and then they’ll tack onto it. All the emails that you have. Yeah, just no, I mean, it’ll be legit. Like the first part of the email thread will be legit. And then they’ll, they’ll get in the thread somehow and they’ll send some out.
Well, so, oh, well in order to finish this up you gotta, well, usually the way, the way that that works is
Neil Robinson: one of the two sides becomes compromised and they have those accounts. So the biggest issue from probably like 10 years ago, or less than that, probably five years ago, pro two is micro Microsoft and Google.
You can go from any computer and log into the same area, right? So if you’re using the same password for your Microsoft or Google and then your, you know, Netflix account, right? You get on when you get ’em along. So they log in and what they do is they log in, they create some forwarding rules, they create some things in place to kind of see the flow.
They can [00:44:00] log into your account. So once they see, or they have a rule that says, Hey, I see Wire, or I see counter, they’ll go in and that’s where they basically reply as you. And they’ll take over. But usually what it means is one of the two sides usually is compromised. ’cause very rarely there, there is authentication protocols in place from S-P-F-D-K-M-D Mark, the stuff that I work with on a regular basis that you can’t just send as Chris at MEPS Psych.
But if you log in as his account. You have all the fun in the world, right? And so exactly that’s a thing where they’ll, they’ll watch the mailboxes and they see those threads and that’s how the businesses get it. And they say, oh, that last wire transfer didn’t go through because we had to change our account number.
Can you please now send it over here to this address or to this wire account? And it’s very critical and that’s why there’s been other layers from Microsoft Google to try to protect it. That’s why two-factor authentication, as Kyle pointed out, those things were, when you log in, you get a something on your phone.
Okay, hold on, lemme
Chris Gazdik: set that up. What do we do to fight back? Go.
Neil Robinson: Well, first thing you do is you, if you’re looking at it from a technology standpoint, you set up verification methods, whether it’s [00:45:00] texting or I hate them. Authenticator app. You know, they’re annoying. They are annoying,
Adam Cloninger: but you have to do ’em because we got freaking of people in the world.
As someone
Neil Robinson: who supports multiple people, I hate them too, because I have to log in and then I have to work with them to get logged in and like it’s, it’s this a necessary evil that we have to do. So it really is. So from a technology standpoint, that’s one of the first things you can do because if someone is getting into your system, not only does it notify you that, hey, someone’s trying to log in, but it also stops ’em because they shouldn’t have your phone number, they shouldn’t have the authenticator app, they shouldn’t have those types of things in place, do it Now, the other part in this thing Kyle kinda talked about is when you start seeing issues or something looks suspicious, do your due diligence and homework.
If I get a text or a call from my nephew, reach out to them directly instead of from your phone call or text cell phone. Text his cell phone. Mm-hmm. Or talk to his mom or dad or like whatever your connection, say, Hey, did you know so-and-so’s got arrested? And they’d be like, I don’t know where you’re talking.
My, when I got, we’re eating dinner right here, Johnny, when did you get arrested? Right, exactly. So [00:46:00] when I went through my whole thing, my wife called the sheriff from another phone to say like, Hey, here’s what’s going on. And like, I’m kind of going through the motions with this guy being like, maybe I need to be careful.
Watch out what’s going. And then, but she’s also validating it from the other side to be like. Is this really legit? And they’re, they’re like, no, if this was really there, we’d be at your door giving you a letter, or doing this or doing that. So, due diligence, if it’s suspicious or it, it looks too good to be true, do your homework, especially if it’s someone you know and follow up with your normal chains of communication.
Right? Here’s
Chris Gazdik: the big thing about, you know, how do we fight back? And what you’re saying, due diligence. Here’s the big capture of that in my mind that people I think you can grab onto is don’t be alone, right? I mean, how many times we talk about on through a therapist size, isolation is not good. Being alone is a problem.
And the primary, one of the primary tactics that they wanna do is get you on the phone or get you in a relationship, texting you back and forth over months. But the immediacy is, [00:47:00] don’t talk to anybody. Don’t get off the phone with me. We’ll see you all the way through. It’s a classic tactic because they know once you talk to somebody.
How long did you guys figure out the trademark thing was a thing when I started telling you about it, Adam, I think your head started moving about before I was halfway through. Right? Well, because fear is used otherwise. Yeah. But I become fearful.
Adam Cloninger: Yeah. The, I mean, to me it’s, there’s too much there where it’s a possibility.
Of course, I wasn’t on a phone call. I don’t know for sure, but to me there’s too much. Especially when she said, oh, well, even though we’re representing this person, we’ll represent you. I’m like, eh, wait a minute. Now
Chris Gazdik: it’s all fishy. Yeah. But, but again, in the wrong moment, I may not have seen that. And the predication of fear that there’s my livelihood with through a therapist’s eyes is gonna get me Right.
Because that’s why I paid attention. Otherwise, I would’ve gotten rid of all those other emails. Oh, well
Adam Cloninger: what if they would’ve like. Called you back a week later and said, Hey, you know, Joe Blow, that was represented to him. We’ve had a fallout and yeah, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t like this. So how would you feel about me representing you to make sure he doesn’t get this
Chris Gazdik: right?
[00:48:00] No, we already opted out of the SMS messages. Adam. They’re not calling me back. It doesn’t matter out the front end. I’m like, don’t opt in anymore. Like stop that. Anyone needs to come to us about something. We don’t need to opt in to SMS text messaging. Yeah. It’s like, oh,
Neil Robinson: just, just be aware. You really have to, like I said, I’m going with the company network work.
We’re getting acquired, I’m going through all the corporate training again, and it’s all the stuff we have to have to be aware and, you know, they, they do things like if you find a u SB drive, don’t plug it into your computer like. Really like, but it’s, it’s stuff like that you just have to think about.
And when it’s something you’re not sure about, you have to make the effort to, to pay attention. And as we’ve stated, not always when you get that phone call, are you in a good state for it? Because Lord knows what’s going on that day. You know, there, there’s weird triggers they pick up on you an like, it’s just, it’s very hard to do it.
But once again, if you think if something’s fishy, if it looks like a duck, check it out and it walks like a duck.
Chris Gazdik: Don’t be alone. Check the duck. So here’s the last time I’m gonna say again, if you’re listening to this segment, we’re [00:49:00] moving on to episode three 12. But dude, this gets you, ma’am. This can get you.
It’s not all the other people that get took. What did you say, how many billions? 12.5. 12.5 billion. It was 10
Neil Robinson: billion in 2023 and then it went up 2.5 billion in 2024. Nuts.
Chris Gazdik: Adam, I got a question for you. How do you get rid of a habit?
Adam Cloninger: Get
Chris Gazdik: rid
Adam Cloninger: of a habit. Guess what? Well, I mean, I know you stopped. We can listen to a whole
Chris Gazdik: episode three 12 where we talked about how to get rid of a habit.
Adam Cloninger: I’ll sink you off the hook. No, no, I, I was thinking about, I know there’s what things you could do to start a habit. Like, you know, they say, they say do it 30 days in a row or whatever. Oh, gotcha. But I was thinking about the opposite. Yeah. The inverse of that, I’m thinking. Hmm.
Chris Gazdik: So the three questions for how to get rid of a habit, episode three 12 was, what habit have you been trying to change and why does it matter to you?
What triggers or emotional tend to lead you back into that habit? And then what’s small [00:50:00] sustainable change? To your point, Neil, a little while ago, just small changes when we were talking about health. What small sustainable change can you make today to disrupt the pattern that you are in? So, habits, what did we tell?
How well, how well did we get through getting rid of a good habit? Explained in episode three 12.
Neil Robinson: I thought we did a really good job of going into a lot of the different pieces that you Was this just Victoria and I? Yeah. ’cause it was, wasn’t it John bailed for self-care reasons? He,
Chris Gazdik: he, no, he thought that we had another.
I know, yeah. Okay.
Neil Robinson: But, but, but goes back, what was this about John in that time as he left because he wanted to take a mental health moment, you know, even for whatever the reason was, it goes back to even therapists needs self-care and need those situations. We do. We do. So but no, I thought we did a really good job covering it.
I thought we did a good job hitting, you know, some things to kind of help get to those points. I thought overall it was a really, really good show.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a question that you’ve come across in mental health more commonly, right? Like, you know, I’m doing this stuff. How do I [00:51:00] stop smoking? How do I stop these bad habits?
How do I stop procrastinating is a big one. How do I stop dating bad people? How do I stop eating poorly? How do I stop, fill in the blank. I mean, there’s a lot, lot, a lot of, lot, a lot of things. Now I let you think you have any tricks, Adam.
Adam Cloninger: Do something different.
Chris Gazdik: Actually, that’s not a bad thing. I thought he was gonna make a joke.
I thought he was all prepared with something comical.
Adam Cloninger: Go do something different.
Chris Gazdik: It really is. That’s that. Well go further with that because you’re on point.
Adam Cloninger: If you got something well, how many times you heard this? Somebody said, well, I chew gum now because I used to smoke. Yeah. Or I keep a, I don’t know, something in my hand now, a pencil in my hand now because I used to mess.
You have something in my hand instead of a cigarette. Mm-hmm. I’ve heard stuff like that before.
Chris Gazdik: Behavioral replacement strategy. This is literally a, a thing. Yeah. You know, it’s funny because in my training on substance abuse, when I was learning about addiction recovery this lady, yes. I’m gonna say this on air.
I was gonna say her name and I won’t, she, I call her hell lady ’cause she chewed me up and spit me out, man. I [00:52:00] was a student at the time and she did not, she didn’t like me ’cause I ask a lot of questions and, and she, she didn’t she literally didn’t like me, but I learned a lot from her about addiction.
So I appreciate you if you know who I’m talking about by chance. She’s still working. I’m sure that was years ago. So she’s old now. She was in recovery and she took her, her wrist wash. He did say that. Huh? He did say that. Yeah. She’s old now. I did say that on purpose. Hey, she was hell. But she was probably
Neil Robinson: about your age now?
No, then she was my age. She was my age when I was, when I was exactly. Yeah. So she’s old. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: she’s, she, yeah, she’s, she’s up there. But she, she went, she had her, her watch on her left hand and she went into recovery and put her watch on her right hand. And for the rest of her day she stayed sober. And that, that watch stayed on her right hand.
It was just something simple. But it’s a poignant, powerful reality that when you do something different to replace what you were doing, it solidifies a new behavior. So,
Adam Cloninger: well, it’s, it’s easy to have. I mean, I, I, this is kind of related, but kind of not. I have this at work. I go to the same [00:53:00] place 32 years, go through the same front door.
Certain things you gotta do. You come in hell a pension though. No, you, you, you, you come in, you come in, you do this, this and this. Now if for some reason I’m going through the front door and I get stopped and I go this way, I come to another other door, I’m like, shit, I do damnit. I forgot to do that. Ah, yes.
But you don’t realize until later day because you did something different. Right. So, you know, getting out of habits, kind of,
Chris Gazdik: you know what that’s actually called? Disassociation. That’s a natural disassociated state. Sorry, I had to throw that out there. Okay. Science thing. Well, let’s back up. Let’s understand how habits.
Form and how they, how they operate, because these are really cyclical. So I got a really cool article that said that explained this that you’ve probably heard before. On some level, it’s all about our brains. It’s all about the way that we feel. It’s all about what this does for us. Even negative habits tend to create the dopamine reward system, and we’re all working to defeat the typical self-destructive coping mechanisms.
But many habits including smoking, [00:54:00] sugar, buying stuff, you can’t, you know, afford, they all involve dopamine and the reward system in your brain. So it’s really a feel good chemical that’s transmitted to. Different parts of the brain with neurons to get, trying to make it simplified. But the, the first time you engage in this new rewarding behavior, it absolutely pops the dopamine level to a euphoric feeling.
And that’s why you get so bought in. So then you get the, the cue and then you get the routine. You were talking about routine Adam, and then you get the reward. And the reward is you feel excellent, like when you do these things that create these, this, this cycle loop in, in the first place. So, so you get this rewarding behavior that creates euphoria and then as a result, the dopamine releases and you explode feeling great.
It leads to changes in connections between neurons and the brain and the responsible for the actions in that system. Again, I’m trying to dumb it down a little bit, but you gotta understand like your body wants to feel good. And when you do one of these things, like maybe drink a diet [00:55:00] Pepsi, gimme the sponsorship diet Pepsi, please send us some money.
You feel good? And I did, I had a hunkering for pop and I went and got pop. It’s what we call it up North Pop
Adam Cloninger: Pepsi. Chris will get a tattoo of Pepsi. Whoa,
Chris Gazdik: dude. He wants me to get from the right, for the right amount of money. You want me to get a tattoo? So bad, don’t you? This guy, these guys. It’s not gonna happen.
What do you think? So does that sound like new, familiar? I don’t know if I cited that out, if that sounded too confusing or convoluted. Does that make sense? Dopamine releases and might sound, makes sense
Neil Robinson: to me. I have a question. Behavioral or, or chemical? Which one is harder to break? Things like, I’m addicted to alcohol versus I’m addicted to this behavior.
And the reason why I ask this, ’cause my mom smoked forever, she said the hardest part for, for her was the habits that getting up, having the cigarette with her coffee, getting in the car, having the cigarette. Like it was a lot of, there was probably nicotine and addiction tied to that too. But for her, she said her excuse, her reason was, it was a behavior, it was the [00:56:00] habit.
I just would always do this. And going back to neuro pathways, stuff like that. I see that. So from, from your standpoint, outside of the actual addicts, who are the, those who actually have an addiction or addictive personality, which, what is harder? Is it more of the chemical side or is it more of the behavioral side?
Chris Gazdik: So Carolyn Bakker says, good information on fraud. Thanks guys. Carolyn, you are welcome, man. Loving having you around. So, you know, it’s an interesting response that I’m gonna give you, Neil. It’s not really a cagey response or intended to be, you know, like both is the answer be because in my mind they’re tied together.
That’s what I was just saying. The cyclical reality. You have a behavior, you, then you get the biological euphoria, and that’s your reward system. So that becomes a routine. Now you know about my feelings and observations and training and experience about addiction. Addiction’s a whole different thing, I believe altogether.
So 10% [00:57:00] of our society has a very, very different thing going on. Very, very different. They get swallowed up by alcohol, weed, pot, drugs, pills, all that, or gambling addictions, eating addictions, sexual addictions and online video gaming, addictions. Those are the only things, those four behaviors, and then drugs that we actually have addiction to.
So when you’re playing around with addiction, that’s a whole nother level, a whole different thing. We’re talking about routines and patterns. Smoking’s tricky though, right? I mean, I, I don’t know. That cha, that’s a, that’s a, that’s a rabbit hole. Write that down for the next rabbit hole. Nicotine addiction isn’t a thing.
Neil Robinson: But, but I, and I think, you know, looking at those pieces, and I think you kind of talked about it a little bit, but I think I see, you know, what triggers motions tend to lend you back into the habit. What small sustainable change can you do, you know, what habit have you been trying to change and why does it matter to you?
I think when we look at habits, you look at those pieces, and this is something a buddy of mine are kind of looking at. ’cause he just hit a hundred days of some something he was trying to [00:58:00] change. Oh, cool. He made it a hundred days. Him and I were talking about some stuff. But it’s, it’s, it’s the idea of sometimes one bite at a time.
You’ve said it before, when you’re looking at negative habits or negative things, you, you look at one, what is the one habit you want to change? Make
Chris Gazdik: it manageable.
Neil Robinson: And basically at that point you also have to look at it. Why do I want to change that habit? Because your why needs to be bigger than your habit.
Your why has to be, I’m doing this because. I want to, you know, play with, of course there’s always the kid, you know, I wanna play with my kids. I wanna be at my kids’ graduation. Like, especially like, stop drinking sodas, right? So to me, the ha and the habit per, there’s either two things you have to do, either have a bigger why or a bigger discipline or system in place to manage that habit.
To change that habit. If you don’t have one of those two reasons, it’s gonna be hard for you to maintain something to when you wanna take something outta your, out of the equation of your routine.
Chris Gazdik: Let me reinforce that because I feel like in working in addictions recovery processes, you know, [00:59:00] with AA and therapy and iops and rehabs, one of the most effective, what we call relapse prevention tools, which is somebody trying to get off of alcohol and preventing themselves from relapsing back into that whole q and trigger thing is.
Creating a very clear why I have found it most effective when people are like in a moment and realizing like, this is my why, Neil. It is so profoundly a big factor. I have had so many people over the years with embarrassing moments, shameful behaviors, situations they found themselves in. I mean my, one of my favorites is this really well established upper middle class, well-known figure in the area years ago.
Told me this so I’m not breaking confidentiality. He had a position and he came home from a major conference, major event. It was all drinking and he had alcohol addiction, troubles, puked all over himself, driving home and he had to walk into his house, avoid his kids who saw him, ran upstairs, didn’t kiss his wife or engage his wife and, and just [01:00:00] ’cause he was, he had.
Puke all of her stuff. And it was just so, I, I have people, you know, write poems, take a picture create a song or take the ticket that you got, the DUI or whatever, and literally have it on your personal all the time because Neil, you’re so on point and to validate your why is a huge part of changing this system.
Right. Big, big, big deal.
Neil Robinson: And I also wanna add to this is like when, when it comes to the habits that you want to change. Don’t compare your habit. You want to change to someone else. It’s not a, it’s not a comparison. Once I can go back to the study earlier, just because my habit is stop treating my fingernails where yours might be, stop smoking, right?
Mine’s still a habit that’s detrimental to me for whatever reason is, and I want to be better. I wanna change for that. So don’t get discouraged when someone says, oh, that’s great. You stopped biting your fingernails. I did that 10 years ago and you know, I stopped smoking because of this. Right? Yeah. I think those are those things you have to look at when you look at your habits and your personal things, you have [01:01:00] to make sure that you’re doing it for the right reasons.
And once again, you can’t compare what you’re trying to do to someone else because I can, once again, I haven’t drank in seven plus years ’cause it wasn’t a big thing to me. Who cares. But other people it is, right? You can’t compare it to other people. Some people can, once again, chewing fingernails. Some people can’t stop chewing their fingernails.
Other people, it doesn’t bother them. So I’m just saying, if you’re looking at changing habits, have your why, have your reason, and don’t compare yourself to others. Be proud when you hit those milestones. When you make those changes and you’ve stuck with it at 30 days, 60 days, whatever those goals are, reward yourself and be proud that you’ve made this change for yourself for the reasons reward.
So I just wanted to add that in because I just feel like there’s a lot of people that are out there being like, well, I just, I just made this one small change. If it something you’re stuck with, that’s a big change.
Chris Gazdik: Sometimes it’s big deal. I agree. I love that. Where else did we land? We really looked at increasing awareness about your routine, increasing your awareness about how that works, the whole dopamine [01:02:00] dump, and how you feel.
Replace the routine as you we’ve talked about. Good bit. Practice, relaxation. You really wanna be nice to yourself, you know? Meditate, calm, do self care, like, you know, do chill out. Because there’s a lot of anxiety in this sort of cycle where you know, you’re caught in and it’s, it’s, it creates fear. And then lastly, you’re saying rewards reinforce positive behavior.
So increase awareness, replace the routine, practice relaxation, and reinforce positive behavior. Neil, let’s see how Adam does with this. Give us a good example, Adam, of what habit you’d like to get rid of for yourself. Hmm. Or ask Julie
Neil Robinson: what habit you should get rid of.
Chris Gazdik: Ask his fiance what habit Julie, text us in.
Adam Cloninger: I’d like to get rid of.
Chris Gazdik: He’s gonna answer. I love this. I
Adam Cloninger: didn’t expect this. Let’s see what happens. No, I, I can’t, I can’t think of any habit. I, I mean, oh, he’s
Chris Gazdik: perfect, Neil.
Adam Cloninger: No, no. I, I mean, he is, I was going to say, there’s, there’s nothing I can think about. I, [01:03:00] I want like stop doing. But I can think of plenty of things I want to want to start doing.
Neil Robinson: Like what
Adam Cloninger: exercise more he did. He can’t do 90
Neil Robinson: pushups. So, so then, then here’s my question. What do you need to stop to, what do, what habit do you need to stop so you can build the habit of starting exercising?
Adam Cloninger: I don’t wanna stopping working with without help or stop working. Stop sleeping with ha or
Chris Gazdik: yes.
No more. No more eating time. No more
Neil Robinson: afternoon naps. Adam. Saturday. Whoa, that’s too far, man. Naps that don’t happen very often. Nap too. I don’t get to be there. I’m kind of mad because I go there. I can stop doing a show that gimme another day. How about that? Hey, hey, hey, hey. That’s only one day outta seven.
What’s the other, what’s the other six? One day outta seven, I mean
Chris Gazdik: seven. How about 30? It’s one day out of three. We,
Neil Robinson: we can, we can start working. Oh yeah, it is. He only comes in once a month. It’s one day outta
Chris Gazdik: 35th. What the heck? I know, man. You guys were getting on my case about something. Yeah, we, we, we could remember,
Adam Cloninger: I’m only at home every other weekend.
Okay. So anything that doesn’t get done during the week has to be done. Well, it has to be done during the week. Okay. Listen, this, I don’t have this Thursday,
Chris Gazdik: by the way. [01:04:00] This is not through the end weekend.
Adam Cloninger: Yeah. And I’ll be leaving tomorrow after work, and I’ll be back Sunday. Oh. What? Do you have another lawnmower to paint?
No, I, I had to, I had to cut grass yesterday, which was a horrible time to do it because now I got, probably got stuff stuck on bottom. Horrible. Yeah. You got, but I had to cut it because I couldn’t wait.
Chris Gazdik: We’ve been getting
Adam Cloninger: crap ton of rain around here. I’ve got a ramp I gotta build. I don’t have time to do it,
Neil Robinson: but, but I, but I think it goes back to the same thing.
If you’re in a really good space in your life and, and you feel good in a lot of your things, great. But if you fill the need that you want to change, once again, if the why of your exercise becomes bigger than the problem of what you have, you would make the time you figure out what that is. Do you just start doing pushups again in the morning when you, before you go to work?
Right. Do you start doing calisthenic? No, I’m a morning person. I’m not either. You know what, what
Chris Gazdik: bugs me a little bit about that, Neil to, to to not really even to push back. ’cause I love everything you’re saying, but I, I think for some, I don’t think this is you, but for some, it just occurred to me as I was listening to you there, [01:05:00] how, how do I wanna say this?
People will sort of throw. People under the bus and blame them for not taking it seriously or not you know, doing a good job to, to follow their own thing. I mean, you know, we, we make fun of New Year’s resolutions mercilessly, and, and so there’s, there’s a lot of blaming that goes on, and I wanna take the, the shame and the shift off of that just a little bit, because what you’re talking about is, yes, I love everything you said, but the, the, the dopamine, the reward system, the automatic process, the routines, people aren’t even thinking about this stuff that they’re doing.
They’re literally picking their nails nail, and they don’t even know it. So, so, so I wanna be careful about don’t shame yourself. Don’t blame yourself, and don’t blame other people for things that they’re doing, because that’s just part of the human, it’s how we get God. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. And you, but you weren’t saying that, but I just want to add that.
Neil Robinson: No, I think, I think that’s that that fine line, right? If you’re doing [01:06:00] something and until it becomes detrimental to you and you find that you really need to change for whatever reason, is don’t feel bad ’cause you do it. Don’t feel bad ’cause of this. And definitely don’t shame other people because of their habits.
That’s so many in society. We’re so quick to say, well. Yeah, I had this issue. But you have your problems. Who gives a crap what your problems are? You need to worry about yourself. You know, you are not there to, you know, you can’t control them. You can only control yourself. And so once again, the same thing that applies.
Just because I don’t bite my nails and you do, Chris doesn’t make you any better or worse. It’s until you decide you want to stop biting your nails and doing throwing, biting
Chris Gazdik: my toenails. Man,
Neil Robinson: that’s nasty.
Chris Gazdik: I do not bite nails, just so you know. Not my fingers nor my toes. To be clear, it’s basically his toes.
Adam Cloninger: I know he wouldn’t do that. No, I
Chris Gazdik: got a reverse foot. I stopped biting my nails a
Neil Robinson: long time ago when I kept pulling it and they would hit my, like, the part where it’s in there, they were hurt. This was a long, long time ago. And after that I was like, there’s my why. Like, I really don’t want that pain. [01:07:00] It took me a little bit.
So I’m just, you know, they get long and I trim ’em,
Chris Gazdik: right. Ugh. It makes my skin curl. Yeah. That’s terrible. Keep, keep no clippers with you at all times. I got ’em right there in the, in the corner of the, the office for your toenails. Yeah. Yes. You
Neil Robinson: trim your toenails in the office.
Chris Gazdik: I mean, they need to get done during session, sometimes session
Neil Robinson: during session
Chris Gazdik: sessions.
So good. Why,
Neil Robinson: why so and so come back with an eye patch? Well, my toenail got a little crazy. This
Chris Gazdik: is getting a little weird. Y’all. We gotta get outta here. Yeah, let’s, you need,
Neil Robinson: you need to break that
Chris Gazdik: habit. Yeah. I’m gonna break that habit for sure. Alright, closing thoughts, comments. This has been May 20, 25 month in review.
We got some cool things coming up in, in June one that is definitely cool. I need to get that set up though. You know what I’m talking about, don’t you? Mm-hmm. How, how excited about that are you? That’s really cool. It’s, it’s mysteriously fascinating, but I gotta get the, the time and date set so we can record a really, really trippy show that’s gonna trip you out when you hear about this stuff.
Any closing thoughts, guys? [01:08:00] All right. May, 2025 is in the books. We’re gonna hit June next month. And John and Victoria, we’re gonna pull ourselves together and get our panel back. We haven’t, we haven’t been together like all of May, basically have we, and for various reasons No,
Neil Robinson: between the guests and then that last one.
Yeah, it was definitely a crazy, but it was a great month. Yeah. Yeah. Great guests, great topics. Chris Gazdik: We, yeah, it was fun to have guests as well. So we’re gonna maybe have another one soon. Take care, be well. We’ll see you next week guys.