In Politics, Community, and Mental Health (Ep334), Chris takes a thoughtful look at how political fear shapes not just our beliefs—but our brains, our relationships, and our sense of belonging. From understanding fear as the dominant political tool to exploring how it fractures community and fuels chronic stress, this episode connects emotional regulation to civic awareness in powerful ways. Listeners will hear how fear narrows thinking, deepens tribalism, and keeps the nervous system on high alert—and learn practical ways to restore connection, regulate emotions, and engage politics without losing peace of mind. The takeaway: before we can talk facts, we have to calm the body.
Tune in to see Politics and Community Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How does politics influence your emotional state day to day (tension, hope, fear, disconnection)?
- What makes political messages so emotionally activating?
- What is the most powerful political tool?
Links referenced during the show:
- From Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self — Chapter 1.27 | We experience most what we focus on the most
→ Politics exploits attentional focus. If we focus on fear messaging, fear becomes our primary emotional reality.
From ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse — Chapter 30 | We tend to hold on to grudges and resentments but not facts.
→ Politics thrives on emotion, not information. People remember the feeling of threat more than the content.
(ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse)
Chapter 40 | Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust…
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #334 Transcription
Chris (00:46.178) Well, welcome to Through a Therapist's Eyes catching up behind the scenes moment there. Oh dear. This is Ju... What is this? November the 6th, 2025. We are on episode 334, hanging out with Mr. Pope. How are you, sir? John Pope (00:57.89) Yes. John Pope (01:05.8) I am doing quite well, thank you. Doing better. Chris (01:08.768) And Neil, we have your image on here. I thought you were hanging in the background. You with us, you with us not. What are we doing here today? He says, sure. I'm not sure what to do with that, but we're to be talking about politics, community, and mental health today. I think that's going to be a fun topic. It's, it's something that we used to do on the show, John. I used to, I used to laugh, you know, a shout out. I gave him a heads up. I was going to give a little shout out again to Mr. Craig Graves. always very appreciative of him. He was, yeah. John says, Hey Craig. John Pope (01:41.358) Okay. Chris (01:45.068) You know, he was instrumental. I still have a long held and will always hold a certain amount of gratitude and appreciation. He was all the way back in the beginning and to a large part, Craig is the original OG is the reason why we have a platform. We work together to get this started. So I used to love and, and enjoy sometimes it's just a part of our relationship and friendship that we would get a little political John. So, so here's a little ode to. Yep. Here's a little ode to Craig. John Pope (02:10.906) my goodness. Chris (02:14.716) we are going to be talking about these questions here. How does politics influence your emotional state day to day tension, hope, fear, disconnection, what makes political messages so emotionally activating and what is the most powerful political tool that is kind of used now? I want to kind of get on from the get front end here. Two things, one, little bit of an announcement that we do have. Casey Morgan getting ready to come back and join us. I'm excited about that. Yeah. She's going to be back and it's totally my fault. We could have, should have had her today, but, I just didn't get on the horn and, and inform her quickly enough. And yeah, we just got her cross paths. So hopefully she'll join me next week and we have a guest, I believe, that is going to be joining us and we're going to be talking about. So this is actually a little bit of a setup, next week, you know, the computer age and mental health and. John Pope (02:47.042) Yay, KC! Chris (03:13.14) It is a topic I think is the biggest thing in humanity ever, John. John Pope (03:19.426) Yes, I think so. I think it's, it's, we've gone to a post literacy age as a result of our computers. And so Chris (03:28.428) Yeah. So if you think this is going to be a show where we're to kick around Trump's use of tariffs, you're in the wrong spot. If you want to hear us talking about the big blue wave that suddenly hit the country, I guess, Tuesday, a couple of days ago, this is not the show for that. If you want to talk about what happened to Kamala Harris or why we're in a shutdown, probably the wrong show for those things, John. John Pope (03:57.742) the Chris (03:58.304) Right. We're going to be talking. good. That was deescalating for you. Yeah. I mean, we can touch on whatever makes sense to you and Neil, if you ever chime in or whatever, but, this is really like almost things you need to think about before you even have conversations about these types of things that I just listed. And if you think about the way that I said that, that's, that's really central and key and really, really important. So let me do my normal interest stuff. is through a therapist eyes where you get insights from a panel, a therapist or in personal time in your car, not delivery of therapy services in any way. we got the book through a therapist eyes, re understanding yourself and, becoming your best re understanding your emotions and becoming your best self. And then the marriage book. So I'm pretty proud of those writing contents. good, good. free or good pieces of information to get ya. John Pope (04:55.554) You can give a five-star Google review as well or Amazon review on those. Yes, that's right. Chris (05:04.244) On the book and the show. And or contacted through a therapist eyes.com is where you get up with us guys as a human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to have figured out together. So yeah, John, I appreciate the five star plump for the book. What, did you think when you saw this topic? What was your first impression? John Pope (05:28.91) thought we were going to talk about the politics and I was saying, oh God, shoot me. So. Chris (05:37.89) So that was your fear you meant that you were de-escalated John Pope (05:41.366) Yeah, I thought it's Thanksgiving or Christmas all over again. Chris (05:46.018) Yeah, well, you know, it's not. And I think, you know, we used to do that, I think, to be fun on the show, getting a little political with Craig. But really, it's really from a mental health component, man. mean, John, I think people get so much mental space, headspace and emotional space that are influenced and affected and our community. And just in neighborhood conversations, just in groups that you get a part of. mean, shoot, people even get a little bit tripped out. Neil, I wonder if you'd agree on like our fantasy football, you know, posts and communities that we all, you know, love and cherish. mean, people get weird in groups of people anymore. And particularly as politics kind of come on. Do you find that John, or how do you see that different? Cause you've got a long span of dealing with people in groups of people. all sorts of groups of people. John Pope (06:48.206) I do. And I've had that experience. And it's been rather disconcerting sometimes that you could get with a group of people and they start to, as soon as you start talking politics, people's primitive brain kicks in. They just go back to the limbic system and then they'll their heart rate goes up or their anxiety level goes up and they start to sweat and they start to fear. you know, they, they, they feel like they're losing control. And so they have to defend something. And so they, they feel like they're being cornered, even if they're not necessarily. And I, I think that kind of takes away from group processes. I think you mentioned group and Chris (07:43.564) Yeah, all kinds of groups. John Pope (07:46.174) all kinds of groups. At church, you get people that get polarized. so you find yourself being drawn into one group as opposed to the other. And the next thing you know, you're kind of like not able to talk to somebody that has been a very dear and good friend. Chris (08:12.492) You know, Neil, do it, do quick search for us. I'm curious if you would just pop, pop some search and read around, see what you find with rates of, of social anxiety increasing or decreasing. I'm curious what he'll find John, because yeah, I would venture a guess. mean, I wonder very much if there aren't, you know, very much, increased rates of that type of thing. think people just in groups in general, is it fair to say seem more anxious? more unwilling to engage. I you that's just not as comfortable. John Pope (08:45.143) A lot more tribalism. Yeah, I do too. And I will say in my life, I've never seen people so polarized, not even during the 60s when I was kind of naive or late 60s when I became even more politically aware. But there's been a lot more tribalism recently. Chris (09:12.044) wonder even about like groups such as the military, John, you know, because this isn't just about politics. This is about human interactions. I mean, the definition of politics to me is really very much like just groups of people and how we how we relate, you know, to each other. I'm John Pope (09:16.279) Mm-hmm. John Pope (09:33.287) that's polis. It means people, the people. So it's from Latin. And so I think, yeah, I think the whole process, there's politics everywhere. The church has politics, politics in in terms of like a corporation that you're with. Chris (09:57.27) We definitely know there's politics in churches, isn't there, John? You speak from well experience in that, right? John Pope (10:00.558) Well, kind of got bitten a couple of times by that, by church politics. Chris (10:16.14) Second definition for politics is activities within an organization that are aimed at improving someone's status or position or typically considered to be devious or divisive. It's interesting that we use that word negatively that has even landed into definitions. Cause I just feel like it's group dynamics of groups of people that are getting together. Like that's what politics is. John Pope (10:16.589) And I think... John Pope (10:39.31) It's not intended to be divisive, but that's our modern understanding is because as soon as I hear politics, my stomach starts to nod. Chris (10:52.362) Gosh. It's uncomfortable. John Pope (10:56.962) Yeah, yeah. And I have, maybe I'm jumping the gun a little bit, is that when I'm in with clients on either side of the political spectrum, let's say in this country, and they're not going to talk about the elections or anything of this sort, but let's say when their person isn't elected or is elected, they're afraid that they're going to lose their rights. and I've never seen it this bad. Never seen. Chris (11:29.154) No, John, your career spans longer than mine, but it is absolutely shocking to me. And it really started around Trump's foray into politics in 2016, but it was really with, but yeah, but it was really with, uh, with Obama a little bit as well. I had, I am shocked that, uh, this has become clinical issue in sessions. John Pope (11:43.564) when he came down that escalator. John Pope (11:57.688) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris (11:59.042) Is never been clinically an issue that I have found with family dynamics, relationships and marriage. Just distract me. They started the, what was that phrase? you have, Trump deranged Trump deranged sent. was it? Trump derangement syndrome. It was like, what are you saying? I don't even understand. It's wild. It's really wild. John Pope (12:19.106) Deringtranche syndrome. Yeah. John Pope (12:26.252) Uh-huh. And then there's, yeah. But I guess one of the things is, is that I have tried not to get drawn into it. I've tried to make sure that people, don't show my hand. And, you know, I will say I'm, I will allow that. I mean, I'm not, you can't peg me down where I am. I have a strong sense of what I believe in that sort of thing. But I don't think as a therapist, it's responsible of me to impose that. I tried to do that. I'm sorry, go ahead. Chris (13:10.978) you have to be careful yep I will Yeah. Well, I was just, I was just going to join with you and I was just going to say like, I, I, I will engage in banter. And before I realized kind of what was going on, you know, the, the report section of a session, you know, like the first, I really legit think of it like as the first five to seven minutes or whatnot of a session. I'm just joining, I am tuning in and that's just banter. It's an important part of a session. I was naive. I would bring politics into that, that element and. Get, got hit a couple of times, man. John, know, right? Cause I didn't know. I didn't realize that you had to be careful until I learned. Did wow. That is a really strong element. John Pope (13:47.854) Ha ha! Yeah. John Pope (13:56.844) Yeah. I knew I was in the wrong church when I got up, and they wanted me to talk about politics, but their kind of politics. And yeah, I may even been sympathetic about that, but I have made it a policy. Part of my life goal is not to impose any type of politics into preaching. Now, I can talk about Chris (14:06.433) boy. Yeah. John Pope (14:26.582) gospel or how what Jesus taught and how we're to be aware of that and apply it to our lives today, but not Chris (14:34.22) Yeah. John Pope (14:38.078) not come up with some sort of political stance. Chris (14:45.452) And it's interesting as you think about in even the realm of a congregation or, you know, what people are doing with their space. What's going to be sprinkled all throughout our conversation today is a very powerful feature. It answers directly, you know, one, the third question that we have here today, John, what is the most powerful political tool? To me, it's a very, very easy answer. Like, you know, people have got to realize, right? John Pope (15:13.39) Yeah, I agree. Fear. Yeah. Chris (15:16.46) Fear. It's so poignant as a component of human interactions now. And it isn't just in politics. I people are fearful of all sorts of things now that anxiety has started to just rule. Neil, do you have that by chance yet? Were you seeing anything or? Neil (15:40.735) It looks like on average 7 % of people get diagnosed with a social anxiety disorder, but the numbers are all over the place because they have all the different metrics of this group is this and this group is this. But they have said it basically across the board that it is increasing, Depending on the metrics of those that are 7 to 13 or those under 18, but it is one of those things that's commonly increasing. And it was, I think I saw up to 20%. of adults at some point experience, think maybe at one point was even higher. I have all these different metrics across all these different things. I'm like, 18, over 18, male, female, this versus that. It says this one back from whenever it said 12 % of US adults experienced anxiety. It's all over the place, but basically across the board with her, this one says 19 % have an anxiety disorder in the US. John Pope (16:30.605) well I Neil (16:37.256) So I mean, that's one fifth of people have a social anxiety disorder. Seems kind of crazy to think about it, right? Chris (16:37.558) a lot. Chris (16:44.866) That's a pretty high number. John, what were you thinking? Neil (16:46.526) I think. John Pope (16:48.087) Well, I actually had a couple of my clients, because of the way the elections turned out in November, that were afraid they were going to be picked up by and arrested. Yeah. So that went up. A lot of it. Yeah. So some of that is perhaps warranted in terms of fear if it's. Chris (17:02.538) with the immigration factors now? there's a lot of that going on right now. Great fear related to that. Chris (17:17.57) Fair right? John Pope (17:19.265) Yeah. Chris (17:21.644) So let's talk a little bit. I'm sorry, go ahead. Neil (17:24.466) No, go ahead. No, was just going to add the idea of if you're not doing things, if you're not doing anything wrong, even when you see it all over the place, depending on what you're subscribed to, you'll be afraid. It's like, if you think there's cops all over the place, you're going to try to drive as best as you can thinking, you know, I might get pulled over because it's my, do I have my taillights or this or that? I think that's when you talk about politics. Part of the things that they get in the politics part is the ever pressing. narrative that the side subscribe to. John Pope (17:54.072) So, and I really love the men and women in blue, but there have been times when police have maybe taken advantage and used that, power to scare you or intimidate you. so. Neil (18:16.129) But I think also one. Chris (18:16.406) And John, don't know guys that that is necessarily an intentional reality. I think we need to draw out how that kind of works because yeah, fear is the most powerful political tool that is used, but that like almost implies an intent. And I don't, I don't know that police officers intend to be intimidating. I don't know that politicians intend to. walk in and just own a room. You know, it's something that begins to get experienced. John Pope (18:53.87) So that might be something that's taught and caught basically as as from childhood. Is that what I'm hearing? Chris (18:59.106) Okay, I like that. Go with pot and caught. I think that makes a lot of sense. John Pope (19:04.14) Okay, that perhaps you're told from an early age that you're to respect the police and then sometimes I cannot be misconstrued. you, for example, I grew up during a lot of time in which there were riots and you'd see police fighting rioters, for example, say the civil rights marches and that sort of thing. that shaped a lot of the way I viewed thing. Kent State was another, another way. And even though I'm very patriotic, and I'm very much a supporter of military, there's a part of me that still has a little bit of that. So I was taught it, but I also caught it. And so there's a part of my peace out kind of part of me. And Chris (19:37.599) Absolutely. Chris (20:00.674) Is that what you mean by caught it? So you catch the fear and do what with it? John Pope (20:03.406) caught it, catch the fear, yeah. And so you, well, you internalize it and you make yourself anxious. And so when you see those blue lights flashing and pulling you over, you might just have that nervousness that you spoke of, that anxiety. Chris (20:09.25) And do what with it. Chris (20:26.828) Yeah, it's almost like we fuse thoughts together. Somehow we get to a position of understanding or an experience that I had equates to fear and danger. And therefore I become incredibly anxious about it. And we'll talk more about how that happens in our body because you can very much feel it when it begins to happen. I mean, that's why you hear politics jump for the show and your stomach nuts up. Like why? Does the human experience do that? Well, it has a lot to do with just the basic understanding of what happens when fear really strikes. And we know that by the amygdala and the limbic system and the chemicals that just flow in us, adrenaline. I you literally start having body reactions that are primal in order to save your life, to kill something, flee from it, or to freeze like a blossom. John Pope (21:23.214) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Chris (21:24.161) You know? No one had this conversation. You can see on YouTube, I scrunched my face up and I get tensed up and I'm like, no, you even did this a little bit ago, John. You're like, it's a protection. Do we understand that? It's a protection. John Pope (21:39.277) Yeah. It's a protection. Yeah. Chris (21:47.714) Right. John Pope (21:48.078) So you want to run away if you can from it. But that's the downside of having it every year, every freaking year, right before Thanksgiving, there are articles in newspapers on how to handle discussions, family discussions regarding politics. Chris (22:13.718) Yeah. Yeah. It never used to be that way. Remember it used to be, all right, the men go outside, they get their cocktail, they get their cigar and they have their conversations and they talk. Right. John Pope (22:24.12) Maybe watch football. Yeah. And they shoot and the women shoot you out of the out of the kitchen and don't want you to pick on the turkey and you just, you know, you do your thing and the men kind of bond. But now you have people that men and women, both children, parents, grandparents arguing and having a very dysfunctional time at a a family dinner, which should be a time of blessing, you know, so. Chris (22:59.618) on and gathering and relax and joyous, right? Yeah. I mean, of course not all families operate that way. We have to of course point that out, but you know, there's just a fear dominant reaction in people's bodies. And when you have that, you literally like trauma experience, your brain frontal cortex goes offline. You're no longer thinking in rational thought. And that's really important. John Pope (23:04.334) We're on it. Yeah. John Pope (23:22.99) Mm-hmm. Chris (23:29.728) you're thinking in an emotional state. Some would say you're really not thinking when fear becomes to be invoked and you will feel it in your body. Thinking goes offline and the emotional system takes over. Can we agree to that? John Pope (23:45.312) I would agree to that and I would think about that is that whenever you get into a heated argument with your significant other or your spouse or your partner and yeah, yeah, and yeah, it's very terrifying because you didn't know that you were capable of being that angry or that scared or that frustrated and then you hit that level. Chris (23:56.354) highly equatable to that. Chris (24:00.45) Because that's terrifying! Chris (24:12.098) Mm-hmm. John Pope (24:14.6) and you have to tone it down and take it back and step back. Chris (24:20.598) Now that, John, is a really important tag that you just led on that we will highlight, you know, and get to here in a bit because that's precisely what we're trying to do. You know, when we're doing marital counseling, we're trying to deescalate people, right? Bring it back, to walk it back. But let's, let's stay with understanding for a little bit. What happens when our body gets tense, fearful, thinking offline, you start using pronouns. man, it always sucks or they have come for me or you guys over there in another group are the reason for this problem. And it's like, you know, you don't even have the ability to think specifically. John Pope (25:08.078) As a child of Vietnam, one of my earliest memories was US involvement with Vietnam. There was a TV show produced by the Army called The Big Picture. it was always something, it was pro Army, basically, but it ran on Sunday mornings. But I Chris (25:21.026) Okay. John Pope (25:37.61) And so from the time I was in middle school or junior high to high school to college, the Vietnam War was going and they were drafting people. And so there was that anxiety that was going on. People got drafted and there a lot of people that were... You know, you heard the Creedence Clearwater revival song, Fortunate Son. there were the unfortunate sons that were running through the jungle, basically. And so they went to Vietnam and they come back from Vietnam and they drop out or they just basically are so isolated and so traumatized by war. And so they become a den...and they feel like they were rejected. And so they had fear take over in their lives. And that just exacerbated their PTSD. And they, one of the things when I facilitated Vietnam veteran groups for PTSD is you had to been there. You had to been there. was good. And if you weren't there, and the only reason why I was accepted into the group was I was of that age, I was on the end of it, but also that I had suffered of, I had been in an explosion and had seen Chris (26:46.39) Hmm. Yeah. You don't know. John Pope (27:05.353) what it could do to people to have destruction. so, yeah, it was terrible. And so they Chris (27:08.066) It's terrible. Yeah, it really becomes John and us and them, right? You just said, if you weren't there, you're not a part of us. John Pope (27:16.878) Yeah. Yeah. And the worst thing was if you were one of them and you betrayed them, they felt that you betrayed them, then that was even worse. That was a moral blow. so you were no longer part of that tribe. Yeah. Chris (27:32.756) even worse. Chris (27:45.184) Let ask you something, John. It's interesting. Let me ask you this with this context. So we're identifying fear. We're identifying groups of people, not just with politics, but in community. Fear takes thinking offline. It makes you operate emotionally. It makes you separate out into this tribalism. You're a part of us or you're not a part of us. They're doing this to me. It is in the wrong. They... We use the word they, all this ambiguous, you know, we get into these types of mindsets of clinging to group identity. And you just, you you're going to the Vietnam era because if you're a part of the group, us, you're safer. It's all about how can I get safer? And, and I'm wondering, as you just put us in this context of when you were younger in Vietnam and all of that, what would that have been like? with computer age type stuff in social media. Could you even imagine that powder keg, brother? John Pope (28:51.852) Mm-mm. Nope. No, I could not. Chris (28:54.7) I mean, if we just superimpose the things we experience in on top of that timeframe, I wonder what your brain could do with John Pope (29:07.346) my goodness, you would have distorted cognitions. They'd be warped. Yeah, it'd be very much and you would be operating from the gut all the time and that just has a...your body can't take it. You get all that cortisol in your body, you get so tense, you get exhausted and then it just reinforces the trauma over and over again. And it's like it resonates over and over again. It's echo chamber. Chris (29:45.314) Can you just imagine that spillover? I mean, we literally had tanks in the streets and all kinds of unrest and violence and all kinds of things. that stuff made to George Floyd, what was it called? BLM, BLM riots and whatever, it looked like child's play. That was nothing. John Pope (29:58.894) BLM, yeah. Well, if I said that the BLM demonstrations in marches didn't affect me negatively, I would say that I would be lying because it brought back memories of what it was like during Vietnam, during those marches. Chris (30:27.958) Yeah. And I would say for folks that have experienced things like that, that contributes just because it's like a trauma thing. You kind of pull on your experiences that come into this, but the magnification of all of that, the magnification of the fear. We were talking about police and the fear that we have of police or that police have of us. It's either you're with the blue line or you're on the other side of the blue line. What's in you with? John Pope (30:56.28) Yeah. Chris (30:57.74) Which one you gonna be with? And if you're not with us, then you're against us. John Pope (31:01.134) Which side are you on? Yeah. Yeah. It is devastating. Chris (31:04.842) It's devastating. So when you look at the computer, the community, you know, factors, I think that we can really identify a major impact of isolation. Yeah, go ahead. John Pope (31:15.406) Okay, can I ask you a question going back on this is that the radicalization of people as a result of the computer going online that you have people that would normally not be radicalized and you might have somebody in Appleton, Wisconsin or Lincoln, Nebraska being radicalized and become a pro Hamas or let's say a pro ISIS. For example, yeah, yeah. Chris (31:45.57) Yeah, it's wild. It's really wild if that is even possible. John Pope (31:52.684) Yeah, that wouldn't have been possible 50 years ago, period. No, well, because you did not have the accessibility to social media and such instant information or disinformation and propaganda. Chris (31:57.772) You think it would not? Yeah. Chris (32:09.696) It's the instantaneous reality that galanizes groups of people. You know, I was having this conversation not too long ago with a very impressive guy that I respect. But we were really pretty much on the opposite sides of this. Neil, this is our conversation in the group. Right? And it was presented that propaganda is not new, that these things are old as man, that we've used these different things and it's just a new medium of the same human John Pope (32:12.931) Yeah. Chris (32:39.134) emotional experience. Yeah, John, I see your head going. John Pope (32:43.448) Yeah, but you don't, let's say when Caesar got assassinated, it took three years for the Civil War to, between the Roman Republic of the major actors, it took three years for it to unfold. Yeah. So, mean, you know, whereas, or the Civil War from 1861, it took, it took months, but it was a lot. Chris (32:54.616) wow. Really? John Pope (33:12.866) faster, obviously, because they telegraphs and newspapers and faster modalities. And now propaganda is, let's say, with the Nazis. Well, it was even faster with the Nazis, and now it's like, or the communists, it's much faster now, and it's immediate. Chris (33:37.12) It's immediate. Yeah. I, I, I, it, it, it galvanizes these real powerful fear centers magnified together with groups of people. You know, we had mothers against drunk driving mad. Remember that back in the eighties, it was groups of people coming together in community based a lot of times on what fear and anger is another one of those, you know, that, you know, the curse to me that just. John Pope (34:01.986) Yeah. Well, they did a lot of, mean, Mad certainly did an, as simple. They were mad. They did a great good, they good to get people off, you know, make stronger. Yeah. Chris (34:07.638) They were mad! Chris (34:15.214) Good things came from it, yes. But how that operated, you know, I was just thinking a little bit. I think I'm going to try it. Let's imagine us walking down the road. What are you going to be activated the most? Like what are you going to experience that operates the most poignant, the most powerful? What is most likely to make you act, to take an action? Walking down the street, you're observing a cat in the tree. You with a lady that's stuck. Or walking down the same street, you see like, you five turtles that are in danger on the road. Or walking down the street, you see that house and the attacking dog is available in the yard without a leash. Which one you gonna act on? Chris (35:12.642) Does this not work? John Pope (35:14.84) You know, I think it works. just, I want to be able to help the lady with the cat. I also want to rescue those turtles. But if I go into the road, that's very busy. I'm going to get smashed, but somebody would just run out there and do it and risk their lives. The thing with the dog is he said, I would want to just get away from that dog as quickly as possible and safely as possible. Chris (35:42.614) Right. John Pope (35:42.702) So I climbed that tree with that woman and the cat. Chris (35:47.298) enough, grab the turtles, climb the tree and get the cat to get away from the dog. I didn't quite think about that outcome, but yeah, no, think obviously what I'm going after, I mean, I think people are going to be most likely to be almost a hundred percent reactive to a threatening dog. There are people who are going to walk by the turtles. There are people who are going to head nod towards the lady and the cat. We're not going to necessarily stop, but if there's a dog that is threatening our safety, we are going to take an action. And this is gonna be attack the dog, run from the dog, whatever. John Pope (36:17.742) I'd even be more frightened if it was a chimpanzee that was out there because they ripped my face off. Chris (36:24.694) Fair enough. should have used the chimp, but does that demonstrate like this powerful impact and motivating force of fear? People take action when they're fearful. They go vote. They join your, your, your tribe. They get with you and against the other. It is a very motivational, fast acting highway to John Pope (36:53.704) One second, one second though. Okay. So in that case, if you're motivated to do something that you're afraid of, and it's something that, let's say your civil rights are being taken away from, that's not a bad, you're fearful of that. That's ethically, I think that's a moral thing, is to be able to react that way. Okay. Chris (36:53.878) Wherever we're going. Chris (37:23.158) fair. John Pope (37:23.82) But if you are, if you're wanting to say, I'm going to get rid of all illegal immigrants, you know, because they're different than I am, or they took my job, then you are, you're kind of reacting from a Neil (37:41.984) But here's my question, John. Your statement was given of all illegal immigrants. You're looking at a criteria and then you're saying, adding another part saying that that we're discriminated because of they're different from us. But you're you're prefacing that with they're here illegally. If you drive and you are going 90 and a 55, you're going to get arrested because you're driving illegally. So your statement was kind of a win. John Pope (38:08.386) Right. I'm not disagreeing with you. Yeah. Neil (38:12.681) But that's the weird part about the whole political side of it, right? You make one statement saying, arrest the illegals, and then you bring in another part that tries to hit the emotions of, well, you're just doing it because they're different than you. There has to be a standard of legal versus illegal, and that's what they do with the political side of things. It's like, if you're not here legally because you didn't follow the things correctly, if you've skipped something, if you haven't done something. John Pope (38:25.992) huh. I see what you're saying. Neil (38:40.401) If I have a court ruling and I don't show up for it, I have a warrant out for me because I didn't go to court, right? I can get arrested for that situation. So the problem is, there... John Pope (38:51.358) you're going to find yourself manipulated. And that's when you become part of, let's say, an interest group or you become a part of that of a certain tribe, you're going to not...certain types of constrictions or restrictions that may be legal or otherwise, or you might dismiss certain things, like for people that are If someone, if they're saying that all illegal aliens should be deported, you might, and you're saying, no, they shouldn't, you might embrace, you might say, well, we need to be able to allow more to come in and or not have have strictures against them and legal constrictions against them. And so you you might turn your back on some of the what is already legal or laws of the kind. I don't know if I'm making sense or not, it. Neil (39:57.129) But, Chris (39:57.186) Well, here's the thing. Let me chime in and summarize to get us off of a specific policy and kind of say like how this is delivered. Neil, I hear you talking about like, what is the language around this? And that drives how people operate and fear this. People generally, totally across, at least in the States, agree we need to have borders. We need to have border control. We need to have, you know, rules and laws that are followed about how people properly come in. know, otherwise we have just... chaos. mean, everyone kind of knows this, but when you start talking about it in such a way that they're taking our benefits or they're taking our jobs, or these are, these are, these are criminals that have come across, these are crazy people, you know, these types of things incendiary or fear. And then we get into horrible conversations around something that we all agree on. That's what's wild about this. See how that just twists it. John Pope (40:50.52) Yeah. Neil (40:51.006) And going back to what you talked about your tribes and your communities and all those things, right? So what ends up happening is you end up with saying, I think this way and going back to social media, when I go online and I look for certain articles because I believe one thing or another, right? I will now get 90 for 95 % of everything I see is under those guys of that opinion. John Pope (41:18.702) That's the algorithm. Neil (41:19.954) then that's the problem because you're not really given the other side of the opinion. If you go out and you were off to a, if you went to a coffee shop and you said your opinion out loud, there are gonna be people there that are going to express a difference of opinion. And you're gonna have a discussion and when you're gonna be face to face, so you're not gonna normally say the same stuff you normally would say. But when you're online and you say something or you look, you don't even say it, you just look up something. Chris (41:46.348) Closive. Neil (41:49.404) everything that comes after the fact is based around that opinion, which then further you talk about John radicalization, right? Because all you're seeing is that same opinion with no differences. You never get the counter argument to actually help you process the two different sides of a story, right? So, and that's what politics does. And that's why the algorithms are so dangerous. Chris (42:11.714) And what I want to highlight again, this show, John, I may, is really about the mental health impacts of this. You might even hear our conversation listening, you, the listener, you may hear this conversation and you may begin to feel stuff because we just got a little specific onto a thing. John and Neil, maybe they had a little conflict. I don't think you really did, but you feel that. And if you allow that emotion, then you begin to do all these things that we're talking about, tribalism. John Pope (42:12.494) Well, I agree with you on Chris (42:41.42) fear-mongering, disconnection, isolation. We catastrophize things is another thing, John. It's a mental health impact. We see the worst case scenario. There's all of this that comes in because of your emotional mental health state, not the topic. John Pope (42:49.79) yeah. John Pope (43:01.027) right. Chris (43:02.944) It's our interaction. It's our fears. Yeah, go ahead. John Pope (43:03.534) So you're not able to address, you're not able to take care of the problem. once you get, let's say once your guts all tied up in knots and your heart rate's high and you're sweating and your adrenaline's pumping, you're not gonna be able to actually reason together. And that's, you can think. Chris (43:29.064) Think John Pope (43:31.766) And so you put your think, your thinker is a stinker. Yeah, it's offline. And I think that's what the danger is, is that you notice that I noticed that a lot of people that are controversial of back in the back when I was in college, and this was 50 years ago, we had speakers come Chris (43:35.906) It's all fine. John Pope (43:59.628) and you would protest, but at the same time, you would allow them to speak and you would engage in dialogue. if somebody and it's almost like it's a reflection of the algorithm, basically, you, you are not going to listen to what that other person has to say, you're not going to welcome them and open and hear them out. And that's not done anymore. And so in a way, you're right. Chris (44:26.668) We lose discussion. John Pope (44:29.432) Right. Chris (44:31.244) We lose it. know, we want to, you know, it's interesting. I find lately that you hear more and more people, you know, kind of saying a standard suggestion, turn off the news. Do not have conversations about politics. Shut things off. Turn things off. You know, don't look at this stuff before you go to bed. You know, these are starting to be people are really, really even just naturally gravitating towards that because I think that we realize how unhealthy it is the way that we're engaging. doesn't feel good. Right. Neil (45:05.854) I would agree with everything, but I think the idea of not having conversations about politics is what got us where we are right now. I think you should engage in political talk, but you need to, and because that's great practice, talk to someone that you can talk to, but you're not worked up by. Because there's people that I know that there's, because Chris, you and I can have conversations and neither one of us really gets, I don't know how, well, I don't get worked up about it. I don't know about you, Chris. You compose yourself well. Chris (45:13.474) That's a problem. Chris (45:24.182) But first, exactly that. Chris (45:32.972) I don't either. Neil (45:35.357) But you need to start baby steps, right? Find someone who has a disagreement with you and have a conversation with them to start that discourse. It doesn't have to be just because people disagree doesn't mean that it's the end of the world or that either one of you is a horrible person, but yet our society makes it seem that way. So I would actually challenge the notion of go have a conversation with someone that disagrees with you that you can have a civil discussion with. Yeah, and that's because that's important. Chris (46:04.514) I'm glad that you did that, Neil. Neil (46:04.862) Because if you can drop this, because I think that's super important. John Pope (46:07.096) Yeah. I think, let me ask you this, and this is just observation, is therapists or belong to a group that there are rules of civility, there are rules for therapists that we have to abide by so that we don't try to change somebody's mind. That person has to that has to come to that themselves for them to have that emotional growth and to be able to process through their trauma, so to speak, or disagreements. But maybe we need to return to if there's a way possible to have a group like what Neil was talking about where people can reason together and be polite and Chris (47:02.05) Think about that. John, you're awesome. What you're hitting is we know this in mental health, right? We set up groups, we set up group norms, we set up group boundaries, we set up group rules, we set up group intentions or group vision. We do this in groups. Like we know in the mental health field how to set up and start groups. Otherwise it can be more chaotic and whatnot. And what you're so poignantly and perfectly on point with there, John Pope (47:10.424) Yeah. Chris (47:31.88) is we've lost the norms of how we operate in groups because computers, think I blame a lot. I'm concerned about how they have changed all of that so vastly. We're meeting online right now. None of us are even in each other's presence on this platform. It's so wildly different. I don't know that human beings are able to cope. All the norms are gone. All the rules are different. How are we supposed to engage and have this civil conversation? It's really wild. That's a really important element, John Pope (48:06.542) Yeah, think so too. Yeah, I did. Yeah. But you know, it's just like we live in an age where the computer will, with the chat GPT or what is it? Neil, what is the name? don't want to for a long, is it a large language model? Is that? Chris (48:09.792) Yeah, you do, because you brought it up. That's wildly on point. Chris (48:34.88) LLMs, yeah, large language models. Correct. John Pope (48:36.672) Yeah, LOMs that can, you know, if you're depressed, it can eventually agree with you that you would commit suicide, you know, and tell you exactly. Chris (48:47.894) Yeah Neil (48:48.702) I saw a report about there was a thing I think was a character.ai or something and there was a kid who basically he's dealing with stuff now but it basically they're now trying to get some regulations in place for if you're under 18 you're not allowed to talk to these AI models like whatever AI characters because it does it takes you down these paths because it's so agreeable on everything that if you start saying negative talks, it wants to agree with you and it just takes you down these paths. There is no safety checks and balances that basically says, well, hang on, what's going on here? This is not good. There's no safety measures to go talk to. To me, it should be if someone's talking to chat CPT and something turns bad, there needs to be some sort of a safety net, like a recovery email or phone number of someone you know, right? Before you sign up, give us this contact information of someone that you can talk to, right? But these models and because people are getting sucked into it because I feel like people are craving a connection, craving those things and they're going to AI for this. And I think the biggest problem is, is once again, AI is very agreeable. You can say whatever you want to it, just like social media, just like a lot of the politics. You only look at what you want. Chris (50:01.332) a lot of problems with it, you know, that play together and the emotions of it are huge, right? So I do want to point out and move us on a little bit with, you know, I try to think about things from the book that I wrote, Through Therapist's Eyes, Re-understanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self, and we connect this with chapter 27. We experience most what we focus on the most. And I tell you, what we get trapped with, John, is the fear and whatnot. Right? you know, the, the, the harmful effects of, you know, the process that we, we, we see with the information onslaught. It's like, you can't, you can't get away from it. And it forces a major focus. Like chapter 27, I went into a depth of like, we experienced most what we focus on the most. John Pope (50:53.506) Yes. Chris (50:54.262) You almost can't get away. John Pope (50:56.717) Now, now you can. Chris (50:57.472) And then your emotions are trapped and sucked into it, causing great levels of anger or fear, I think are the two primary ones. And then I also want to point out, interestingly, in the marriage book, Re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse, right? That's through a therapist's eyes. Chapter 30, we tend to hold on to grudges and resentments, but not facts. Now I had that thought in way of looking at marriages. John Pope (51:06.189) Yeah. Chris (51:27.232) And you said it, John, I think at the top of the show, this is an area where we have a lot of energy on this stuff comes out the loudest in our closest relationship. And so in our marriage thinking, I was looking at, Hey, we tend to hold onto grudges and resentments. We don't tend to hold onto facts. And guess what we started off the beginning of the show with our fear process destroys our thinking. It's like. John Pope (51:50.882) Yeah. John Pope (51:54.901) Right. His short circuits it. Chris (51:55.938) It's just what we know about emotions and how they drive the experience. John Pope (52:06.743) I have a client that has had a lot of trauma in her life and it is like peeling the onion because there's that sense of not being able to forgive. But each time that she peels that layer off, it's a layer of that unforgiveness. And so it's very important I think to have that ability to not hold grudges and let go of it because basically what happens when people hold grudges is that they're re-experiencing that trauma over again as though it happened yesterday or now, you know, and it's in the present. Yeah, and it needs to Chris (52:57.876) It's in the present and it's very activating. This is why, and this is very important, this segment I really want to highlight of the grossly important almost requirement. If you're going to discuss anything like these topics with people, community anxiety, political views, anything along those lines, you have got to regulate your nervous system. Like we try to deescalate things by avoiding them or shutting down what we feel. And it just doesn't work because just like the, the, the bottleneck that we talk about with our emotions, if we try to suppress them and hold them down, they will just explode. And that's when you have your horrible conversation with your neighbor. And we naturally try to soothe the information by offering facts. John, how well does it go when you're in an argument with your wife and you try to get defensive facts that goes against what her position is? John Pope (54:04.083) It doesn't go well at all. Chris (54:06.61) I love your reaction. It's so emotionally experienced, right? You cannot just drive facts, drive information when somebody is in an escalated state where their cortisol is flowing, adrenaline is kicking, your stomach is nodding up, your tension in your shoulders is bold. Like how are you supposed to have a conversation? This is what we try to do though. Instead of deescalating our limbic system, John Pope (54:09.559) Yeah. Yeah. John Pope (54:15.116) Yeah. John Pope (54:30.861) Yeah. Chris (54:36.14) We are trying to use our frontal cortex, which is great, because that's what we want to do. We want to be thoughtful about these conversations. Neil's right. He and I can do that. We are really both very regulated when we, and we do have these conversations, you know, and I enjoy them. I don't get stomach-nodded when I talk to Neil about that. Now, if I were to talk to my brother, that's a different topic. Before we even start, I can start feeling my stomach get crazy. I can start feeling the, God, you know, the... I can't then have a thoughtful conversation. We have got to down-regulate the nervous system. John Pope (55:20.109) So to de-escalate, so we de-escalate and we step outside of ourselves. And how do we do that? How do we step out and be able to look at it at least some dispassionately or objectively? I don't know if we can do it perfectly objectively, but maybe we could look at it dispassionately. Chris (55:20.172) And we get a little bit to how do we do that. Chris (55:48.492) There's a lot of the things like take a deep breath, talk slower, get your body back into control, regulate your heart rate, pay attention to the way that your body feels, get your willies out, tension, release, just wiggle it out, whatever you need to do to deescalate. But there's something that just popped in my head, John, that my buddy and I were talking about years and years ago, this fascinating study that he came across. John Pope (56:00.738) Relax. Chris (56:16.278) And what he came across was, I think I've cited this on the show before, it was about pain tolerance. And what they did is they measured how long you could keep your hand in a bucket of ice before you pulled out for the pain that gets created from that. And so they did it with like individual and then with people. And it was escalated when you were with people because The fear back and forth was just you could feel more and people weren't able to, to, to tolerate that. They began to develop concerns for each other and the interaction. But guess what happened when they took people and they let them play a game first. They would play a game, get to know each other, be then in relationship, be in a union of some sort. Cause we just had an experience together. And guess what happened to their pain tolerance? Went way higher. John Pope (57:16.909) It went down. Way higher. Okay. Chris (57:19.34) higher, could do more, they could withstand more, they could tolerate more. It was fascinating to see that safe space that gets created by a stupid little game literally diametrically change the way that they can tolerate fear and pain. John Pope (57:21.741) They could tolerate more pain in the end. John Pope (57:34.445) No. John Pope (57:39.053) Boy, I'd love that if you could send me that study, I'd appreciate it. Chris (57:43.404) Well, I have no way of finding it, I guess I'd have to Google it just like you would, but I know, right? Like, it's fascinating, isn't it? John Pope (57:47.01) Thank Yeah, so yeah, I could do. Chris (57:50.56) And crucial for us to begin understanding on how we can deescalate so that we don't get caught into these fear loops. Mental health is a big part of all of these things, man. And, and, and in ways that you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have really realized, anything else, I guess Neil, you as well, John guys that you can think of and, know, what are some practical ways to deescalate this, to, to soothe your nervous system so that you can get your thoughts back online and engage in difficult things? John Pope (57:55.661) Yeah. John Pope (58:06.647) Yeah. John Pope (58:22.013) I'm going to offer proper something and that is I'm in a pain group because I've had some chronic pain because of my condition now and I won't go into that too much but I've developed it as a result of this and one of the things that they've given you an app and it's called the Mindfulness Coach. And, and yeah, I do that. And that helps me when I get I have a lot of physical pain. Well, there's no difference between emotional pain and physical pain. I mean, it's the same. It's the same thing, the same areas of the brain are related to that. And the same chemical, same circuitry, the chemical biochemical aspects of it, the synapses, the triggering Chris (59:05.364) You know that. Chris (59:13.356) same circuitry. Yeah. John Pope (59:21.857) The what what it does though is you have to practice you have to practice you have to practice and I think that's my point is that you have to in a sense rehearse it and go over and say okay how do I learn it's to be learned that that so when you get triggered you can emotionally, it's understandable. Let's say somebody gets you angry or you get something like that. You can learn to go back and go back to a sense, a state of a calmer sense and presence. And so in other words, you reclaim your brain and you can engage. so it's, yeah. Chris (01:00:07.412) Now you can engage. Chris (01:00:11.648) Right. Very powerful. Very powerful. You know, I have another book reference that isolates right into that. John, through a therapist eyes, re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. It's got a lot of good nuggets in there. And I thought it was interesting because I could have probably pulled multiple, multiple things out of that book to kind of look at this because again, we experience the fear, the emotion activation, the loudest with the closest relationship, which generally is a, as a spouse or a family member that you're living with kids and whatnot. Well, chapter 40 says validating your partner's emotion or life experience builds trust. Now I was thinking about that in the context of a marriage, but I'm, you know, thinking about it in our communities about how we need to be able to kind of connect. I need to not say, Neil, you're a crazy dumb ass for thinking what you're thinking. Here's the facts. John Pope (01:00:53.965) Mm. Chris (01:01:11.254) that will tell you why you're wrong. It's not going to work very well, just like it doesn't work in your marriage that way. John Pope (01:01:17.709) That's viewed as being arrogant and dismissive. Chris (01:01:21.43) Right? And we're going to have a conversation about something so poignant as to that. So yeah, we need to deescalate. We need to settle things down. We need to engage in slower speech and breathing so that we can have political discussions that Neil is challenging you by the way to have. He has delivered a direct and awesome challenge. Go find somebody that you can have these conversations with and practice these emotional deescalations so that you can conquer the fear and the anger. so that you don't build the resentments and hang on to hurts and you can move through and forward to a better place in connecting with your fellow man and woman. That's the charge, that's the goal. That's what we wanna try to do. I feel like I just did a little bit of shrink wrap up, John. John Pope (01:02:12.651) Yeah, sounds good to me, Yeah. Chris (01:02:13.354) Yeah. man. Let's wrap up a little bit. We need to get to a closing point. I think I didn't do that on purpose. Closing thoughts, comments, Neil. You know, you've been listening. You have any thoughts to wrap us up before we do a shrink wrap up? Neil (01:02:31.849) think it's just get out of your little, get out of your safe space. Everything right now is just designed to exacerbate everything. Everything right now is out there. All the political, all this stuff out there is about one side versus the other. Get out of your little bubble, go experience life. We've talked about this before many times. People on the other side are not as bad as they make you think they are. But, I think that's the biggest thing. And I think also, like you said, Chris, you have to control yourself. You have to compose yourself. And once again, if you're dealing with someone who isn't composing themselves, you have to help deescalate first. Cause I, I've been go tip that a lot of times. You just, once again, I'm a logical person. So when you're like, why are you yelling me? That's a, that doesn't make sense. Well, in their mind, it doesn't have to make sense. It's, affecting them. Right. So I think that's really good to look at. And I think it also, if, someone gets worked up about something that you guys are talking about. Chris (01:03:14.134) Yeah Chris (01:03:23.426) It's affecting them. Neil (01:03:29.543) Don't get caught in the trap of escalating with them. A lot of times it's really not about you. It's about something else they're really upset about, right? So if you want to calm it, keep yourself calm and go from there. So that's the other part I want to say, because there's a lot of people that just escalate, escalate, escalate, and it just gets worse and worse. You just have to realize like a lot of times this, these anger, these emotions, it's not really about you yourself. It's about some idea or ideology that they've worked themselves up with. So just keep that in mind. Chris (01:03:59.81) It's like the worst marital fight that you've had on steroids, right? Yeah, the summary here in the end is don't start with correcting the content, start with calming the body. If there's a mantra that you can remember, that probably summarizes a lot of what we've talked about with community interaction and political discussions and mental health. Don't start with correcting the content, start with calming the body. Neil (01:04:05.0) Exactly. Chris (01:04:28.982) Alright, John, I think we're gonna have an upcoming challenge, man. We've got a series new compender coming on soon. Casey, you know, how do you think she's gonna be with the shrink wrap-ups? John Pope (01:04:39.458) yeah. She's probably one of the most articulate people I've ever met, so she's going to wipe us out. yeah, I don't think we're going to be able to do it. Chris (01:04:47.906) You think we're have to hold our own, man? We're have to bone up our skills. All right, so this is the segment of the show where we wrap up. And we call it the Shrink Wrap-Up. And we have a friendly competition between the therapists that are on panel and the wrap-up of the show. So today we have a head-to-head match-up, so to speak. Neil gets to judge to see who wins, I guess. And it is a winning of pride. So, John, you want to play rock, paper, scissor? Like, how are we gonna determine this this week? John Pope (01:05:15.863) Now, just go. say that I'm going to be succinct. I'm going to say from what we said is that in order before you allow...when you find yourself caught up in fear, you're able to be able to step back, take a deep breath, disengage, and then think about it and... Chris (01:05:17.282) Get home, brother. John Pope (01:05:45.824) wait and relax and then re-engage on a level where the person is of incalculable worth that you're talking to and that you would be talking to that person as you would like to be talked to be in a conversation with and held at high regard, that it might be mutual. Chris (01:06:11.426) Okay. I take a stab at the shrink wrap up and say, you know, I think that the title may have chased a lot of people away even from the show when they see politics. They probably didn't want to listen. So I'm hoping that people did. And if you're still here, listen, this is the deal. You've got to deescalate in order to be effective at what you're trying to do in communities, in groups of people, and in politics. Fear is not bad, but as we once had a brilliant person say, we have nothing to fear, but fear itself. I'm terribly fearful about the national debt that can be for America in the States, that can be an activating force that we then do something about it. So it has its benefits, but you cannot find the avenue. You cannot traverse the path until you deescalate and bring thinking online and generate the best solution possible. When you stay in the fear and you don't de-escalate, you can't even have a conversation. And that's the danger. And that's unfortunately the world that we live in. So de-escalate. Then you can think. Then you can solve. That's the goal. Neil, how'd we do, brother? Who's gonna get it this week? You are in charge to determine who wins the head-to-head today. Neil (01:07:34.43) I really with today's one you guys actually did a lot of good points I mean even there you know the winners are the other listeners of the show, but I would say from this competition I think next year in 2026 I'm gonna start tallying these up and take this a lot more seriously because I really would love to see I'd love to see you know first half versus second half and they do like a head-to-head at the end of the year and see what happens But I would have to give this I'm gonna have to give this one to John today. I really Chris (01:07:36.002) Yeah. John Pope (01:07:52.029) no. Chris (01:08:00.098) I love that. Neil (01:08:03.88) love to hit wrap up. think John's just hit what I what I think is important to hear and so yours was good Chris but I don't know there's somebody John's I just just was just right for me. Chris (01:08:16.128) Nicely done, John. John Pope (01:08:16.301) I want to share the cream with all three of you. Thank you. But I want to share it with all three of us. OK. Chris (01:08:22.306) No sharing brother. That's right. Neil (01:08:22.522) No, no sharing. There is no participation for free in this competition. It is 100%. You earned it. You won this one. And that's how it's going to be. John Pope (01:08:26.433) No, okay, all right. All right. Chris (01:08:31.756) love it. I love it, John. Take it, own it, be it. I'm not charged up. I'm still soothing my emotions over here. It's okay. It's okay. John Pope (01:08:31.851) All right, thank you. All right. I'll be it. John Pope (01:08:41.677) And my hands are sweating so Chris (01:08:44.962) We can handle a little bit of competition and conflict. Listen, guys, I hope this was helpful for you to really change a lot of the way that we operate on fundamental things. All throughout the world, we have this going on. This is not just a state's thing. Let's remember that for sure. So hopefully you heard some things that can help you deescalate, have good conversations, think about them, practice them. Neil has challenged you and we will check you guys out next week on the flip side. Take care. John Pope (01:09:13.678) Victor, see you.