In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we explore dating skills for beginners—whether you’re a post-pandemic teen or a midlife adult re-entering the dating world. We break down how COVID disrupted social development, leaving many people struggling with communication, confidence, and fear of rejection, and why these challenges show up across generations. This episode highlights the importance of friendship as the foundation of healthy dating, along with practical insights on building connection, improving social skills, and navigating modern dating with authenticity instead of pressure.
Tune in to see Skills for Building Connections Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What social skills are most important when someone is new to dating?
- How has COVID disruption affected young people’s ability to socialize and date?
- What similarities exist between teenagers entering the dating world and adults returning to dating later in life?
Links referenced during the show:
https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2019/08/online-dating-popular-way-u-s-couples-meet
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/relationshiptoothers
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self
Chapter 1.13 – Expressed emotion is positive and fresh.
Healthy relationships require emotional openness.Chapter 1.24 – Boundaries are important markers between others and us.
Boundaries help protect identity and safety in relationships.
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a SpouseChapter 37 – Marriage is the highest form of friendship.
Strong relationships grow from friendship foundations.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #354 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello and welcome on April the 23rd, the, least in the States, wonderful day of the NFL draft. I am very excited about my Pittsburgh Steelers picking up a new teammate. Kasie (00:11) I'm gonna go. John-Nelson Pope (00:14) They even dismissed school, they, for like three days? In Pittsburgh? I heard that, I can't believe it. Victoria (00:15) Thanks Chris (00:17) I don't know but you... Victoria (00:19) Totally forgot about the draft tonight. Chris (00:23) It's a thing. What you hear is Mr. John Pope that hangs out with us. How are you sir? John-Nelson Pope (00:28) I'm doing outstanding. Thank you very much. Chris (00:30) Miss Victoria Pendergrass? And Miss Victoria, already said Victoria, not to be confused with Miss Casey Morgan. How are you dear? The Mystic Casey Morgan. No, that might be a new nickname in development. This is Through a Therapist's Eyes, where we are going to talk to you tonight about episode 354, New to Dating? From Pandemic Teens to Midlife Single Skills for Building Connections. Kasie (00:37) Uh-uh. That's why you called me mystic. was like, that's kind of cool. can be mystic if you want to. Mystically Casey Morgan. ⁓ Victoria (00:44) Right? John-Nelson Pope (00:45) of mistake. Chris (01:03) So this is Through a Therapist's Eyes, where we share insights and blow up stereotypes and myths about mental health and substance abuse, knowing it's not delivery therapy services in any way. We love to get up with you and talk with you through contact at through atherapisteyes.com. Check out the YouTube video. Listen, we like to provide that content, make you laugh a little bit along the way, hopefully entertain you a little bit while we talk about sometimes hard topics and hopefully very helpful topics, because we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work. Every day in our offices and this is where we talk honestly about what actually helps John Pope you haven't done it for a little while What's their job in addition to getting new YouTube subscribers and such? John-Nelson Pope (01:44) and to recruit you YouTube subscribers and such but also to give us a rating to go to your platform and give us a five star rating gold stars okay five so not four five not three definitely not three and nothing less than that it's got to be five you know Chris (02:01) Not four. Not three. You really adopted that and I hope people appreciate it because we really do do this for free free service You know, we love doing it, but we need your help. We need your help to grow really 2026 We've got start getting some traction YouTube videos YouTube subscribers and all that we're looking to push it. We need like More we need more. Alright, so let's get this thing rolling This is through a therapist eyes where we talk about the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together and so we are going to start real quick. I want to do a little bit of a rapid fire with this because Miss Victoria Pendergrass and the mystic Casey Morgan did not yet to see her face on YouTube with that one. ⁓ Listen, they didn't get to join us last week and we had a really cool show where we talked about ⁓ Ditch It or Keep It. Millennials are losing the Victoria (02:48) You Good stuff, I'm happy. Chris (03:03) Some trends there. They're ditching some some some parenting trends and I thought it was an interesting show That I was bummed that the two of you didn't get to join us with so listen. I want to be quick on this I do not want to go long because we talked about it all last episode on episode 352 but here's what I want to do I want to go down through them Neil kind of tabulated what we what John and I talked about and I want to see if you guys knew that this was a ⁓ a trend Kasie (03:07) Yeah. Victoria (03:15) Thank you. Kasie (03:32) Mm-hmm. Chris (03:33) And if you agree or disagree to ditch it or keep it. Okay, we want to go kind of rapid though. I just want to tell you, because I know we can get all talky. Yours truly biggest, biggest offender. All right. Ready Victoria? You ready, dear? I'm really, I'm really interested because you're a millennial, right? Victoria (03:45) Yeah, yeah, I'm here. I am. But I think, yeah, yeah, I'm at the end. towards the end. Chris (03:51) The article that we- Okay, yeah, I mean the article we talked about was like talking about you. And then we had an argument, Casey, I know you don't like it, but I think you and Neil, I you're a millennial too, right? Kasie (04:05) Technically, yes. I think that there is a subset generationally like they call it. I forget what they call it, but there is a name for the in-betweeners between Gen Z and millennial. Zennials. the Zennials. Chris (04:07) that we have. There's a name. Yeah. Neil (04:20) It's the Zennials. It's 7685. Victoria (04:22) The zennials. Chris (04:24) Hahaha. Neil (04:24) Yeah, I actually read a YouTube video about that today, talking about it. I need to go back and watch it, but we are a unique bunch. Victoria (04:24) I love it. Kasie (04:31) Yeah. Chris (04:31) It's a weird group. It's a weird group that fits in both. Victoria (04:33) For sure. John-Nelson Pope (04:35) All right, we need to keep on topic. Chris (04:38) All right, thank you, John. Good man. All right, let's run through these, Mr. John Pope. ⁓ Complicated chore charts was one of the first ones. Do we keep complicated chore charts or not? Did you know that it's a trend? And do you want to keep it or ditch it? Not really why, just real quick. Kasie (04:59) Yeah, I didn't know it was a trend. Victoria (04:59) Dad ditched that. Chris (05:02) You did not. Interesting. Did you know, Victoria, that that's a trend? Kasie (05:04) Not really. Victoria (05:05) Nope. No, but ditch it. I don't need to know about it. Get rid of it. I don't want it. Yeah. Chris (05:12) Yeah, I wonder how many Kasie (05:13) Yeah. Chris (05:14) of these trends are us morons in the Gen X. I can say that because that's my group, okay? That's strong word, but I wonder how many of these we created. All right, the second one, because John and I agreed, we need to ditch it. Avoiding the word no. Did you know that's a trend? Kasie (05:30) now. Chris (05:32) Yeah. Victoria (05:33) that avoiding the word no Chris (05:35) Yeah! Kasie (05:36) No, thank you. Bye bye. Hasta la vista. Victoria (05:40) Yeah, no, we, which is funny because my kid literally told me on the way home, Mom, I told him no and he said, Mom, we don't say that. Chris (05:49) See? See, I think it's a trend. Okay, well John and I agreed, we're ditching that one also. Villainizing timeouts. Did you know that that's a trend, to villainize the use of timeouts? Victoria (05:52) So yeah, we do. John-Nelson Pope (05:56) Right. Victoria (05:58) Yeah. Kasie (06:04) What does that mean? Chris (06:06) Well, you know what a timeout is, right? Kasie (06:07) Yeah, but what is villainizing Time Out? Chris (06:10) I mean they demonize it. The people, guess the trend is they make it bad. Like you shouldn't do it. Like it's all Kasie (06:17) Ow. Yeah, I mean, I didn't know it was a trend. I think that timeouts can be very effective if done age appropriately. Chris (06:29) Yes! And Victoria? Victoria (06:32) I would agree with Casey. As long as we're not abusing it, yeah. Chris (06:35) I think, John, didn't we- didn't we s- John-Nelson Pope (06:36) They're all f- ⁓ fuddy-duddies. Chris (06:42) Absolutely. Neil had it marked down that John, we ditched it, but I think there was one early one. I think it was that one. And I was kind of like, you know, I want to keep that one. Did you think ditch it, John? John-Nelson Pope (06:50) Yeah. I thought that we would keep it. But yeah. Chris (06:58) Okay, I, yeah, I thought so too, because I think timeouts are... are awkward. Kasie (07:00) Well, maybe it means like you're ditching the villainization of Time Out. John-Nelson Pope (07:05) Yeah. Okay. Chris (07:05) Okay, okay fair enough. Alright next one is an easy one, helicopter parenting. I mean that's just from obvious ditch, you know. I didn't know this was a trend! I didn't know this was a trend! Turning kids' bedrooms into Instagram decor. So like there's this whole thing where you make your kids' room this big oasis of whatever beauty and cool stuff. I don't know, did you know that was a trend you too? Kasie (07:11) digit. Victoria (07:13) Ditch it, yeah, get it out of here. John-Nelson Pope (07:15) And then it's the Stepsons did it episode. Kasie (07:19) Yeah. Yes. Victoria (07:36) Nope. Well, I mean, I could probably put two and do together. ⁓ But I'd say digit. No. Chris (07:45) Okay, case? Kasie (07:47) Yeah, I mean, I'm not tied to it, yeah. Chris (07:50) Tied to it, she's a little bit wants to keep it a little bit. Kasie (07:53) No, I mean, I just think like, I don't want their rooms to be presentable in terms of like, I don't want them to live like slobs, but I'm not, I'm not like going to Pinterest and making inspo boards and then decorating the room accordingly. I'm not doing that, but I want it to be. Victoria (08:01) Right. Chris (08:06) Yeah. Yeah, well, I didn't know it was a thing, man. My kids John-Nelson Pope (08:11) So Chris (08:12) had stickers and rocks and all kinds of... John-Nelson Pope (08:12) in other words, not making your kid ⁓ a subject of your ⁓ selfies and your TikTok videos. Kasie (08:20) Right, right, yeah. Chris (08:23) I think this next one is a trend hiding evidence that kids actually live in the house like keeping the house looking right and perfect and feeling that pressure and needing to be on you know pictures on Facebook and wherever to where you kind of like ⁓ you can't have messiness ⁓ Victoria (08:36) Yeah, no, that's how I grew up and I hate it. No, yeah, no. We live here. I have a four year old. There's crap everywhere. But my house is clean. Like my house is clean. like, yeah, mean my dog's sitting right there in front of the front door. You can't even get in the front door because my dog's in front of it. Chris (08:47) as he's in the background. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ditch it, Casey. Ditch it. Over planning play dates and gatherings. I thought this was amazing and I know it's a trend. Like I said on a show last week, some client told me how they put this whole hall of justice together for this, for this, birthday party. Everyone came in costumes and my God, it was a lot. Kasie (09:03) Ditch it. Yeah, ditch it. Victoria (09:26) Yeah. Chris (09:26) Did you know that's a trend, Victoria? Victoria (09:28) Repeat it, sorry, Lucas was calling my name. Chris (09:30) the over planning play dates and gatherings. Victoria (09:34) ⁓ Yeah, mean sure socialize with kid, but you don't have to overdo it. I see dude. Good job. Sorry. Chris (09:40) Right. Doing everything for our kids. Doing everything for them. Paving the road. John-Nelson Pope (09:46) Yeah. Kasie (09:47) No, absolutely ditch it. That is number one way to learn helplessness is to do everything for your children. Victoria (09:49) Nope. Nope. Thumbs down. Chris (09:51) Yeah. Victoria (09:56) Thank John-Nelson Pope (09:56) I'm ready. Victoria (09:57) you, Casey. Chris (09:58) I love that. ⁓ Over the top birthday parties, guess I said that already. did. Buying parenting guides that promise solutions. Kasie (10:03) Yeah, digit. Victoria (10:04) Yeah, did it. Chris (10:10) Mmm! Victoria (10:11) I I appreciate the effort, but you know, every kid's different, so. Chris (10:17) Every kid's different. Kasie (10:18) Every kid is different. I think it is helpful for people who, like this is my only caveat, like that maybe did not have appropriate attachment styles growing up in families with parents that had difficulty parenting. And they may simply not know how. And so I'm so thankful that there are resources out there that people can turn to, to at least read up on. Victoria (10:30) Mm-hmm. Yum. Kasie (10:45) what to do in certain situations or how to approach things with kids and stuff because that simply did not happen for a lot of people. Chris (10:54) Yeah, agreed. And I like to put a plug when we talk about parenting, I always like to look at the the love and logic kind of stuff. It's not just a guide. It's it's more of a program, a process, an understanding of getting the whole relationship between the parent and the child based on mutual respect and compassion for your kid. There's a lot to go into it. I love I love that stuff. All right. Last one. Victoria (11:04) Ahem. Kasie (11:16) Yeah. Chris, do you know where's a good place to talk about parenting? In therapy, that's a good place to talk about parenting. Chris (11:22) The baseball field? Victoria (11:28) Snaps, snaps for Casey's statement. Kasie (11:31) Yeah, go to therapy. Therapy. Go to therapy. Yeah. Chris (11:32) My computer blinked out. Where's the good place? ⁓ okay. There you go. Last one is ignoring parenting instincts. We definitely ditched it, John. John-Nelson Pope (11:44) Yes. ⁓ Victoria (11:46) Wait, that's the trend is to ignore parenting instincts? Chris (11:50) Yeah, ignoring yourself, ignoring your instinct, ignoring the natural thing that you would do in a moment. But I don't think people trust themselves, Victoria. Victoria (11:58) literally goes any client of mine knows that that would go against everything that I talk about. It can go just disappear, like whatever is worse than ditching. Chris (12:09) DITCH. I- John, I gotta be honest with you, John. You and I kinda landed on buying parenting guides, the Promise Solutions. We actually kinda kept it a little bit. I don't know, they disagreed with us. John-Nelson Pope (12:19) And we did. And I think that was, I was thinking about Dr. Spock. I don't know if you all were influenced by Dr. Spock, but my parents, yeah, but not Mr. Spock, but Dr. Spock. He was a pediatrician and he wrote about parenting, raising children back in the 1940s. And Chris (12:33) Nice. Kasie (12:37) Bye. Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (12:46) He was everybody had a copy of his guide or book from in the 1950s. No, Dr. Spock. Chris (12:52) Are you talking about Dr. Spock or Dr. Seuss? Kasie (12:55) Bye. Chris (12:57) Okay, that's interesting. All right, well that concludes the rapid fire of the through-therapist-sized minds on parenting from what we talked about last week. Let's get it to it. Let's get it to it dating. ⁓ New to dating from the pandemic teens to midlife singles, skills for building connections. The questions we want you to think about as we talk today, what social skills are most important when someone is new to dating? ⁓ social skills, pretty broad term. John-Nelson Pope (12:58) Yeah, yeah, look him up. Yeah. Chris (13:25) But it gets kind of specific when you're forming relationships and such. How has COVID disruption affected young people's ability to socialize and date? Did you notice my slow pace as I read that question? There's a reason. Because I happen to believe that is a big freaking deal in this almost this whole generation of, you know, five, seven, eight to nine years of our kids John-Nelson Pope (13:55) Mm-hmm. Chris (13:55) development through that time period. Thirdly, what similarities exist between teenagers entering the dating world and adults returning to dating later in life? ⁓ Boy, I don't know anything about that. Dramatic pause. Kasie (14:06) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (14:10) I don't- Kasie (14:11) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (14:13) boldly go where no one's gone before. Victoria (14:14) Easy, yeah. Kasie (14:17) Yeah, I dated in midlife. It's a walk through Jurassic Park. John-Nelson Pope (14:18) taking a missus part. Chris (14:22) What dinosaurs came alive Casey? John-Nelson Pope (14:26) You're getting the Victoria (14:26) gosh. Right. John-Nelson Pope (14:30) dinosaur poo. Chris (14:32) Right. Kasie (14:32) I definitely have a lost or after or two in there. Chris (14:38) It is treacherous, man, in all seriousness, the world of dating is tough. I have happened to make the statement many times in my work with people that, you know, when you, when you, when you traverse into the space where you're developing a relationship with somebody that is, that is the closest relationship that you get somebody that you're even dating seriously. or married to and whatnot. cannot get any closer type of relationship. And so a lot of insecurities come out, a lot of awkwardness comes out, lot of doubts and fears are a part of that. It's beautiful, it's fun as hell, it's absolutely wonderful in experiences when you find a person that you connect with and they connect with you. It absolutely is what makes humanity tick, but it's precarious, thus the Jurassic Park reference. Does that sound fair, guys? Kasie (15:32) Yes. Victoria (15:33) Yeah. Chris (15:35) Yeah. ⁓ So let's talk a little bit about like what happened, you know, with the experiences people had. I can talk about it very... With a lot of depth because I was watching it, man. I have a 24 year old and a 21 year old. Shout out to Aaron. Shout out to Adam. Yo. Just saying. ⁓ and their experiences were wild, right? Because, sorry guys. What happened? So, so my, my older son's Kasie (16:06) Yeah. Victoria (16:08) ⁓ Kasie (16:12) No cap, Chris, no cap. John-Nelson Pope (16:15) Perfect. Victoria (16:17) Bye. John-Nelson Pope (16:18) Yeah. So they are so embarrassed now, I'm sure. Chris (16:24) ⁓ well, I love them. So, you know, my older son's senior year was affected and my younger son's, you know, more basically almost the whole year was the whole high school experience was affected. And I have had so many clients, you know, that have that were in that time period. And it really, it really got warped for for an extended period of time. ⁓ So, so what do you guys think about that? I just want you to wrap about that. of you and see kind of what you've seen in your practice and how you've seen that affecting people. Kasie (16:57) Yeah, so during the shutdown, I was serving as a therapist at a middle school and a high school and running a school based program during the shutdown. And I can tell you that it was pretty detrimental to the mental health components of persons that we were serving and even people that we weren't serving. But in addition to that, what you're talking about here is, is pretty remarkable. John-Nelson Pope (17:04) Thanks. Kasie (17:25) The social and emotional development that did not take place during that time when people were sheltering in place during the pandemic was blatantly obvious at the return back to school from the lens that I had. It was blatantly obvious when they came back that maturity was lower. There wasn't a... Chris (17:41) Right. Kasie (17:53) lot of face-to-face interaction. I mean everybody wanted to download apps to speak to each other. Just the vibe of the school hallway was different in terms of interaction status. Plus we were wearing masks at the school so that was harder. So you know it was just a different thing altogether and when you're talking about teenagers going through puberty John-Nelson Pope (18:11) my gosh. Victoria (18:11) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kasie (18:22) and having to develop basically in a silo on their own at home or through a chat app or a video game or something like that, it's really hard. What I've noticed is that a lot of times they don't make eye contact with people when they're talking to them, things like that. Like a lot of the social norms around effective communication have left the building. Chris (18:49) That is wild and you're really talking very eloquently about it. Let's get more into some of the specifics because I think people don't realize that Victoria were you because I forgot that you were in the school Casey Victoria were you a contender yet? Victoria (18:54) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so that was my, yeah, that was my very first year working with Casey as my boss. And it was, or as my like direct boss, I guess. But yeah, and I mean, and I was at an elementary school. So I saw like, not necessarily kindergartners, because that was their first time in school anyways, but like even kindergartners having to wear masks for their first year of school. Chris (19:06) Wow. Victoria (19:26) First graders, second graders, and even up into third graders who like, they didn't know how to do school. Because their first two or three years of school, our first one or two years of school were spent virtually. like, yeah. And then plus like Casey said, they were doing math, we were doing like. six feet apart, our school had like the school logo stickers, every, what I was at like a true six feet, but it was like spread out and then the kids had to stop on those circles when they were in the hallway and hold on, I'm gonna kill my kid. Chris (20:11) Wow, that was a delayed. Thankfully, she muted herself. That's good. Nobody died, Victoria, right? Kasie (20:14) Take it out! John-Nelson Pope (20:14) That was a 180. Victoria (20:18) Sorry. You're gonna break the blinds, Stop. Sorry. But then you have, yeah, they like, but I mean, seriously, I mean, because even if you think about it, like daycares were closed. So even like prepping kids for kindergarten, like that was all gone. And what the heck did I And so then, yeah, like, I mean, Kasie (20:27) Yeah. I'm like... Victoria (20:53) Like, I mean, little man over here, like they practice standing in lines, they practice like listening, they practice like doing, like raising your hand, all that kind of stuff, which like, he wouldn't, I mean, he would somewhat get it because I come from generations of teachers. So, I mean, I would probably do some of that, but like, he doesn't have that. I mean, he wouldn't have that if he was in daycare during COVID times. Chris (21:17) So let me save you from your kid and pick that up, Victoria. Yeah, that was a big thing. Like, human beings learn how to be human beings from other human beings. Can I make that statement? And I've learned as a parent, the kindergarten teacher that we had was wonderful. Because I'll never forget her saying, like, listen, when your kid comes to class, Kasie (21:30) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (21:46) And he says things about your home and all this. I am going to take it with a grain of salt. And I ask you to, when he comes home and talks about the classroom and things we're doing, to take it with a grain of salt also. Because there's all kinds of perceptions that kind of go into that. that kindergarten, at the beginning of kindergarten, at the end of kindergarten, you talk to any kindergarten teacher and they'll tell you it is amazing because they see the kid actively like learning how to be in society. Kasie (22:02) Mm-hmm. Chris (22:15) And so if you don't have that learning process into the first grade, into the second grade, into the third grade, you're literally like a fourth grader and you're supposed to teach the kindergartners how to be elementary school teachers and you don't know. Now let's look at dating and translate that all the way up to, you know, what happens in high school and how you learn how to be a big, big, a big kid, a big high schooler, right? Kasie (22:40) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even if you think about it, like a lot of the, you know, milestones that high schoolers experience in the dating world were taken away during the pandemic, right? Like prom, homecoming, things like that. Things that you geared up to when you were in high school to ask a person out, to court a person, right? Like to actively date them and take them out and to... kind of show yourself how and what you want as a person that goes on to date later on, you know? And I think that that was a ⁓ very big setback for that generation to not have those experiences prior to leaving for college or the military or going into the workforce. Chris (23:30) So listen, if you're looking at this show and new into dating and you're an adult, we're getting ready to add you to this conversation. So I don't want you to tune out because listen, you're the same as these kids. Can I make that statement? I'm going to use that as a teaser for the adults that are listening to this and figuring out this whole dating world. You're literally the same as the teenagers. So let's look at that. Social gatherings, school events, peer interactions. early dating experiences these these these were just not had They just weren't had I Mean, I can't tell you how many experiences I had in the band You know at the back of the bus y'all know what happens in the back of the bus on a band trip, right? Kasie (24:08) Mm-hmm. Victoria (24:15) Ha ha Kasie (24:16) Gross. Chris (24:18) John, John, gotta prove it to me. Do you know what happens in the back of the bus on ban-crypts? John-Nelson Pope (24:22) Yes, ⁓ yes I do. Chris (24:26) ⁓ Victoria (24:26) one time at band camp? Kasie (24:28) Nope. Nope. Chris (24:28) baby! John-Nelson Pope (24:29) Or if you were in the choral group too, you know what happened in the back of the bus. Chris (24:38) There's a lot of fun things that happen in the back of the bus, Mr. Pope. John-Nelson Pope (24:40) Yes, yes, and somehow the teachers never knew. They never knew. Victoria (24:47) Nah, sure, they never knew. Chris (24:50) You think they never knew, you know? ⁓ come on! You! I don't believe you for a second, Casey. I know your personality. I know you! Okay. John-Nelson Pope (24:52) No, of course not. knew. Kasie (24:54) I never rode in the back of a bus, just so we're clear. I did not. I was a real caller. I was a real caller. Nope, I was a real caller. Victoria (25:09) So my mom, I have a quick story. My mom used to be, ⁓ even though she was a teacher, she would be a chaperone on a lot of my like school's overnight trips. And my mom has this famous story of they put the girls one year in like the front of the bus or the on one side of the bus, the boys in the back of the bus. And my mom was in the middle row with her leg, like laying down or sitting with her legs across the aisle to like keep. Chris (25:29) Yeah. Victoria (25:37) Guys and the girls I can't remember what grade we were in. It was probably like middle school John-Nelson Pope (25:39) Yeah. Chris (25:40) I don't think it worked, it? That is funny. Listen, what happens is these experiences help adolescent young adults going through puberty and becoming young adults. That's what they are, young adults. ⁓ Reading social cues and regulating their emotion when they're in awkward situations like how do I appear normal when I feel so weird inside? Communication skills and handling rejection. Listen, handling rejection. my gosh. Particularly from the guy's perspective, Kasie (25:44) That's something. Yeah. Chris (26:14) There's a lot of pressure that we feel in what it is that we're supposed to try to do to hit on somebody and we're horrible to each other. you ain't got no game. You can't get a pickup line. You don't know what you're doing. And the dude sitting there thinking like, God, you know what? You're right. Like, I don't know what to do. John, what you say? John-Nelson Pope (26:21) I Well, I was just going to say that something was different than when you and I were in high school or in middle school. It was the ⁓ in-cell culture. That's involuntarily celibate group of young men who feel like the cards are stacked against them. They're alienated. They, ⁓ it's so it's, and they... they talk about people being sort of the alpha males and they're not and that they are not going to get the girls and so they don't even what's the use of trying and I think that's a different thing. Am I wrong on that or is that just a Kasie (27:18) No, I think you're completely right. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think that now, especially with the hyper fixation on things for teens transitioning into young adulthood, when you have the introduction of things like TikTok and Instagram and Pinterest and things like that, there is a culture there that shows you Chris (27:18) No, absolutely. Victoria (27:38) Mm-hmm. Kasie (27:45) what you're supposed to be and look like. And you get that in your algorithm all the time based on what you research, right? So if you're a person that wants to start working out, you're force-fed a lot of workout videos with people with certain body types and things like that. And so it is true, John, what you're saying. There are people who feel inferior, I would say even more so now. Victoria (27:52) ⁓ Kasie (28:14) and feel less capable. John-Nelson Pope (28:15) I agree. think it's looks maxing, looks maxing is what it's called. Kasie (28:22) Yeah. Victoria (28:22) Well, don't you think like even with Chris, like you were talking about rejection, like, do you think I mean, obviously, as like even with boys, like, do you think there's ⁓ like the disconnect between like rejection virtually, like through text message and through like that kind of thing versus like experience the rejection of like in person things? And so then it's like, well, I can handle want does that make sense? Like not being Chris (28:50) It does, but I think I can even Trump this to be, to be honest with you. think I can even Trump this. You can't see me. Now that's it. Right. That's a John Cena reference, right? Thank you. I'm glad you caught it. You can't see me. Now that's when you want to be, but I think a lot of people are feeling invisible. And we've talked about on this show where, you know, that is the worst pain a human being can be on. Listen to some other episodes. We've talked about that. It's a horrible feeling to feel like nobody. Victoria (28:53) Yeah. Kasie (28:57) Thanks, Shantina. Victoria (28:59) Yeah, that, yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Damn. Chris (29:19) sees what I am. Nobody cares what I'm doing. I'm behind the screen and I could go do whatever and nobody's even going to know. Right? I think it's a very powerful new experience in the human experience. Kasie (29:22) Okay. Yeah. So I also want to add in something here. I think I would be remiss not to talk about it. It also has implications and impact on ⁓ consent, right? So this time period where people were going through puberty and they weren't learning things about rejection and things like that, it really skewed the viewpoint or vantage point of what is actual consent. Victoria (29:49) Hey, eat your. Kasie (30:00) And so what we're finding now, or what I'm seeing now a lot in my offices are sometimes people are saying yes, but their body language is saying no. And then the person on the receiving end is like coercing and trying to convince someone to say yes until they break down and say yes. I... I think that that has a lot to do with some of the standard development of not being able to appropriately learn how to date during that time period because they were out of that window due to like the pandemic and things like that. So it's an interesting change. I'd like to write a paper on it honestly, but it's an interesting dynamic and change that I've also seen. Yeah. Chris (30:50) Can I jump in, Casey? Yeah, because I want to get to the midlife folks, and then I want to get to what do we do and how do we move forward. But I saw something and I didn't know. I'm curious if you guys know there's like a universal sign of distress in relationships. Did you know this? Yeah, I didn't know that. So on YouTube, what you see them doing is they're putting their thumb to the palm and then they're squeezing their fingers over top your thumb. Victoria (31:06) you Kasie (31:09) NAH! Chris (31:20) So you start with an open hand, you put your thumb to your palm and you, and you close your fingers on top of your thumb. And that is a sign of distress. And the reason why I saw it is, believe it or not, I was on Facebook marketplace and I saw this reel and this dude was going down an escalator and the woman was standing stiff and she touched him and she went up and he went down and he looked up and she did that behind her back. And they came up and they addressed the guy and it was very powerful. was like, I watched the reel like Kasie (31:34) yeah. Chris (31:49) five, like seven times. I was like, wow, because that's moral courage. And that's so if you don't know, that's a sign that is, that is something to do thumb to the palm fingers overcoming the thumb. And that is a sign of universal distress. Yeah. Wow. John, did you know that? Kasie (31:51) Yeah. Done. John-Nelson Pope (32:09) No, no, but I'm not surprised. was thinking about the ⁓ Korean during the Korean War, during the Vietnam War, there were people that were captured by the North Koreans in ⁓ a communication ship. And one of the things that happened was ⁓ they made signs of distress. And that's how they They knew they were being tortured ⁓ because they released the information saying everything's fine, they're well, and all of that the North Koreans did for propaganda purposes. So I'm not surprised by that as being a ⁓ sign of distress. Kasie (32:45) you Chris (32:52) Yeah. Corollary. Yeah, that's interesting. All right. So you midlife people, listen, you're all experienced, right? You know the score. You didn't have COVID. You knew what the back of the bus was in band competition, right? Well, guess what? The reality of it is after you go through a long relationship and you're in your 30s or your 40s, more like your 40s and 50s, right? You're interestingly returning to dating after these long relationships, often experiencing John-Nelson Pope (32:57) Coral area. Kasie (33:19) Yeah. Chris (33:25) The same things. Okay. I cannot tell you how many times I've heard people in midlife or adults talking to me about how they don't know how to make friends. We'll come into that in a minute. But this, this is a major struggle. Confidence, fear of rejection, uncertainty about what the heck this is dating norms. I don't know what I'm doing. I've heard so many people say that. Yeah. Victoria (33:50) Chris, Chris, do you know the bowling for soup song, High School Never Ends? Chris (33:56) No. What is it? Victoria (33:59) Casey! Kasie (34:00) Yeah, high school never ends. Victoria (34:03) It's basically this song that pretty much says like high school never ends. Like people, the same crap and things that happened in high school that you experience in high school happen when you're an adult. So it's like high school never ends. You should listen to it. Chris (34:16) Totally. I can believe it. We should do a singover. ⁓ You know how many people I've seen that are in midlife dating after divorce or whatnot and they're in panic about the online dating culture and their vulnerability? Like these are huge things y'all for you ma'am and you sir that have gotten back out into the dating world, right? Kasie (34:22) Yeah, but I can say this. go ahead. Yeah. I will tell you that I think that my latency adolescent clients into young adults are far more resilient in the dating world than people that I see in midlife in the dating world. Chris (34:56) That's a bold statement. John-Nelson Pope (34:56) Mm. Kasie (34:57) Yeah, and I think it's based on past experience, right? So, depending on how things ended in your last relationship, there's, from what I can tell, a lot of carryover usually, and it really impacts how you proceed forward in the dating world, moving forward in your life. John-Nelson Pope (35:09) Thank Well, I'll share that I'm very happily married. It had been so for 43 years going on 44. But I saw on Easter Sunday four girls that I used to date at church. God. Oh, man. It was so. Oh, I don't know what it's. Kasie (35:31) Yes, John, you dog! Chris (35:34) baby! ⁓ Kasie (35:40) It's the ICK! Chris (35:42) It's wild. mean, John, people think that they are all developed and I got my stuff together, but they're literally learning all of these social skills in a different context, but they're learning them all over again, aren't they? Kasie (35:46) Yeah, I'm actually- Yeah, funnily enough, I am married to somebody that I dated in high school. John-Nelson Pope (36:04) Wow. Chris (36:04) Did she just say the word funnily? John-Nelson Pope (36:07) Finally, she's British. That's a British-ism. Chris (36:10) Is it a Britishism? Alright, so let's get in. Let's get into this. I hope that we've convinced you ma'am or you sir that are in all grown-up skin, you know, in your 50s, even 60s or in your 40s, man. I mean, you you're learning a lot of this stuff too, and I don't think that you know how to make friends. I really don't. ⁓ Let's do a little round robin and see what you got. Don't take my notes there, but you know, ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (36:12) Yeah. Chris (36:39) John, Victoria, and then Casey, like, how do you make friends? Minute each. Victoria (36:46) A whole minute? Well, usually what I tell, what I talk with my people is, I mean, I know this sounds so cliche, but like putting yourself out there, I usually say start with your interests. So like, for example, if you like reading, then go find a local book club, you know, go to your local library. Your local library is going to have a lot of book clubs. Kasie (36:47) Okay. Victoria (37:14) But go to your local bookstore, they're probably gonna have a couple of different book clubs. So start with an interest and then use that as an opportunity to meet other people, because then one, you're gonna then meet someone who is automatically into something that you also like. And then two, stop being weird. Stop. Kasie (37:43) You Victoria (37:44) And then, ⁓ yeah, that's where I got okay, that's five minutes is it. Thank you. Chris (37:44) Okay, Victoria, that's it. John-Nelson Pope (37:47) Well, I would say I'm going to help you out there a little bit, Victoria, because, so you would, I'm going to be tried and true, is that you actually have to go out and meet somebody. And so when she says a book club, that's great, and it's wonderful, but that you would go to somewhere where there are people doing things together. And so, in other words, you could Kasie (38:02) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (38:16) let's say take a course or go to class or you could go, heaven forfend, go to a church or you go, in my case, I would go to a senior center. And, ⁓ you know, I think that would be a wonderful place, shared interest, very, very important. And where you can get involved or you could do Habitat for Humanity, something Kasie (38:27) you Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (38:46) Give back. Share. Kasie (38:50) Yeah, my greatest friendships that I currently have in my life come from small groups at church on that's where I'm really like connecting deeply with other people and you know, sharing life with them, making a community out of it. On other places I would say is there's a really cool thing online that you can look up called meetup and meetup are several area groups near your location and John-Nelson Pope (39:13) Yes Victoria (39:16) down. Kasie (39:18) You can search different interests and things like that. And they will have events all around you that you can attend. Like there's young professional groups, Toastmaster clubs, lots of different things that are available out there. But like John said, the first step is always knowing that you have to make an effort and go look for it. John-Nelson Pope (39:44) I a client that actually is on Meetup and has done it. They do all the baseball cards. So he meets most of the guys, but that's, you know, it's friendships. Kasie (39:53) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (40:02) Absolutely. So my thing is that I've talked about a hundred times in therapy. It's a skill set to talk and connect. And as Victoria said, put yourself out there. And I think it's real simple. You simply find out what that other person is interested in and ask questions about what they're interested in. That helps to make connection and conversation. Then you find out what things they're interested in that are in common with you. Kasie (40:32) Mm-hmm. Chris (40:32) And you simply talk about those things that are in common. And then you progress into finding out new things that we can experience together. And to me, this is where the magic happens. When we start to engage in new things and experience them together. And that's the way a relationship kind of progresses from, I don't know you from Adam. I know that you're interested in these things. I know that we have these things in common. And then, hey, would you like to try something different together? People don't think about it on that basic term though, Kasie (41:02) Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It doesn't have to be complicated. We overcomplicate it in our brains because we psych it up to be more than what it is. The worst thing that someone is going to say to you is, no, I don't want to. And that's honestly the worst thing they're going to say. And I know that rejection is hard. I know that vulnerability is difficult. But when you're really thinking about the... Victoria (41:21) Yep. Kasie (41:33) Absolutely worst thing that is gonna happen is somebody might say no I don't want to do that or I can't go or right now or things like that John-Nelson Pope (41:41) Yeah. Chris (41:42) That's true. Yeah, oftentimes we're fearful of things. And I tell you, you know, the president once said, you have nothing to fear but fear itself. It's crazy because fear is so powerful. And if you do that, Casey, you just, you debilitate fear in its tracks. Kasie (41:57) Yeah. Chris (42:00) You know, and I'll tell you one of the things that I have found, you know, I like to tell the story of this dude that was in college of mine. Honestly, I'm not into John, you know, we're guys. I'm not into judging the looks of guys, but I'll be honest with you. This dude was not attractive. He was my buddy. He was my boy. We hung out, but I don't know. He wasn't that attractive, but I'll never forget sitting next to him. were. Yeah. Well, I was, yeah, I mean, well, I was his wingman, I guess, because of the story. Kasie (42:01) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (42:15) Yeah. Here's your wingman. Chris (42:28) You know, he, were sitting and having lunch or whatever. Next thing I know, he pops up out the chair and he's gone. And I'm like, where'd Matt go? Like what happened? And little while later he comes back. like, Hey, did you see that chick? That girl, she was hot. And I'm like, I didn't even see the girl. He had popped up, jumped over the bushes, started walking with her, her phone number and came back to finish lunch with me. Right. So, so confidence, you ladies, you correct me if I'm wrong. Confidence is number one. Kasie (42:42) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (42:49) Wow Victoria (42:54) Some dedication. Chris (42:58) Feel comfortable with yourself, demonstrate confidence, and execute the next... John-Nelson Pope (42:59) Yeah, definitely. I wouldn't believe. Victoria (43:00) Mm-hmm. yeah, for sure. John-Nelson Pope (43:04) And how are going to get confident unless you strike out? Unless you... Yeah, so you have to, you have to try in order to learn. Victoria (43:10) Mmm! Kasie (43:12) Well... Victoria (43:19) I mean, like I always tell my clients, so the gym I go to, they say like, we go until failure. And so, because then you can, you hate that. ⁓ But you hate it in the concept. Yeah, you hate it in the concept of the gym. But like, yeah, I mean, so, but I take that same principle and like use it with my clients. Like, yeah, go until, keep going, failure's okay. Because yeah, failure lets us know where we're at and what we need to work on. Chris (43:28) ⁓ I hate that. I do. It's right. It's good. Good. Victoria (43:49) And so when you like not just in the gym capacity, but yeah, mean, like, put yourself out there until failure and then you'll know where you're at. Chris (44:02) Well, let's go a little further with that Victoria. You're right. mean, I, you know, I've never been a gym rat kind of guy, you know, and I'm, I've got a personal trainer now and I work out with him and it's, it's an emotional adjustment. Like, you know, I don't like to be, you know, lifting the weight and then literally have my muscles like, whoa, and he's got to spot me. Right. And what that means for those that don't know is he takes the weight and he helps me push it, you know, push it up wherever I'm going. And it's kind of like. John-Nelson Pope (44:23) Yeah. Chris (44:31) I don't know as a dude, like I don't want that man. I don't want nobody like picking my weight. I don't want nobody, you know, saving me, but that's the whole goal when you're doing resistance training is to wear your muscles out until they fail, which means you maximize the benefits. So John, your point, you know, you can't have confidence without failure. Can you say a little bit more about that? Because I think you're right on point. John-Nelson Pope (44:54) Yeah, I think that's one of the things is that you have to have this attitude. I think it's important to have an attitude of optimism, of hopefulness. And that is that, okay, I struck out this time and I might strike out the next or the next or the next. But there will be a time when you will start gaining that confidence. You learn from it. You're self-aware. you're going to be able to finally get it right. It's like learning how to ride a skateboard or to drive or ride a bicycle. learn from the mistakes and all those little points lead you to success and you start having success. Kasie (45:36) Thank you. Chris (45:45) John, back in my guy in college, it's exactly what you're talking about. Matt would hit on girl after girl after girl. I would hit on like three girls and he would hit on like 15. So obviously he had like six girls that he got connection with and I had like, you know, two, but I only asked three. So my percentages were way up, you know, in that, in that way of thinking, but he had six and I felt like a loser. Kasie (46:04) Thank you. Yeah. Chris (46:13) Well, he was getting denied over and over and over again, and I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Right? John-Nelson Pope (46:19) Yeah, I would say that my best friend is someone like that. He gets rejected all the time. he's someone that just is hope shines eternal with him and he'll just go and he'll just keep going at it until he meets someone. He's very athletic. He's very handsome. And yet at the same time, that's not all that Kasie (46:20) Yeah. out. John-Nelson Pope (46:48) ⁓ Evidently, he's learned that that's not all that women look for is that they want a little more depth. And so he's been able to start developing that side of his personality a little bit more. So Kasie (47:00) Yeah. Chris (47:01) You know, it's a nice transition, John Depp. How dating grows. What happens when you get into a healthy relationship? It really, we all hit it on our one minute thing, right? Shared experiences. Conversation. Curiosity. Getting interested. Right? Emotional presence. Just being available. Those are powerful things that progress a relationship. John-Nelson Pope (47:15) hehe Mmm. Chris (47:30) particularly emotional presence. know, we think we have to say the right thing, do the right thing, make the right joke, do the right statement or whatever. Right. Can we speak a little bit to just being present? Kasie (47:42) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (47:42) ⁓ Yeah, because if you're not present, you're somewhere else. Even if you're occupying the same space and place, you are not there. Kasie (47:56) Yeah, there has to be quality in your quality time or it doesn't count, you know? So you have to be present. And sometimes that's hard because you're dealing with things personally while also trying to navigate relationships. And so it's a difficult space to be in, especially if you've never inspected or gone in on self-inspection around what it is that you're bringing to the dating table. And I think that that's really important. Yeah. Chris (48:23) Casey, me ask you. What does it feel like when somebody, I'm not making it weird, you're married, you know, when somebody like gives you their undivided attention, they are hanging on your word. They are fully present for you. They are listening. They are responding to the sentence that you said, not their sentence of creation. When you're getting that kind of attention from somebody, what does that feel like? Kasie (48:52) It makes me feel important. It makes me feel validated. It makes me feel like I know what I'm talking about in some regard, you know, or that that person is actually interested in me and not just putting on a front or a show to make me kind of go for them because they can, you know, be agreeable. John-Nelson Pope (49:14) I love you. Victoria (49:19) Yeah, I was gonna say I... Sorry. Now, I see it with, like, individuals and even couples I meet with about how, as much as it makes you feel, like Casey said, when it does happen, you also really feel when it doesn't happen. And, like, I get a lot of that in individual stuff, too, and couples, like I said, but, like, you may not think that your partner notices that you, you know... Chris (49:19) Let tell you something. Go ahead, Victoria. ⁓ good point. Victoria (49:47) do something and aren't present, but they do. And they just, for whatever reason, they're just not saying something about it, or it's like a recipe for resentment. ⁓ So yeah, I I would say equally as much as you feel it feels great, and it feels like want to, it's, you know, makes you feel wanted and all these things. You can also really feel it when it's not being, when it's not happening. Chris (49:51) They do. Let me tell you something, if you develop the ability to really be present in the way that we just spoke about it, you will have all kinds of friends and you will not have a problem finding a partner that you can choose out of, not out of scarcity, but out of abundance. The ability to be present with somebody is powerful, really powerful. John-Nelson Pope (50:26) Mm. Victoria (50:39) think it also bodes well to connecting it to communication. And if you were in a place where you cannot be present, to vocalize that for whatever, if it's because you had a bad day or because, yeah. I mean, because yeah, we're not saying that you have to be, we understand, I think all of us understand that as humans, we're not gonna be. Kasie (50:52) I'm good. Chris (50:54) Being honest, mean being genuine. Being genuine and honest, yeah. Victoria (51:07) perfect ever really, you know, so there are going to be times where like you maybe want to be present but you can't or you know, you just don't have it in your like social battery or your emotional mental whatever battery you have. You don't have enough spoons for the day and like, you know, and so then I think it's also equally important to not feel like you have to have this pressure to be present like all the John-Nelson Pope (51:15) See you tomorrow. Victoria (51:36) freaking time because we understand that you can't. That's that thing. Kasie (51:39) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (51:39) Okay, one of the things that Chris is very good at is that he can, his antenna goes up or at least that's my experience of Chris. If he knows I've had a real sucky day or something like that, he'll know what, and there's particularly more when I was up there in North Carolina with all you guys, but he just say, you're looking a little down today, John, how are you doing? as always, Kasie (51:43) No. John-Nelson Pope (52:07) that genuineness was always there. And so he was actually inviting me into his circle of confidence, confidentiality or circle of intimacy in terms of a relationship, in terms of a professional relationship, but also as a friend. Yeah. Kasie (52:21) trust. Chris (52:30) ⁓ Well, you know, really, I appreciate that, John. That's super kind. Man, I'm kind of... ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (52:37) Well, it's true. It's true. Kasie (52:37) Yeah. One thing that Victoria (52:39) And I, yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Kasie (52:39) I really, one thing that I, one thing that I like about what you have here, Chris, too, is you mentioned something about staying curious about others as well. I think that that helps avoid a lot of stagnation if we stay curious and figure out things about people that we're trying to date. There are really cool tools available. John-Nelson Pope (52:43) Yeah. Victoria (52:47) Ahem. Kasie (53:03) on even like conversation cards and things. I encourage couples that I work with to make their own, not to be too spicy, but we do a touch, tickle and taste card in couples therapy. But also you can make it a little more PG if you want to. So, but you can make it more about, you know, childhood, you know, things like that and have different varying questions on there. Chris (53:22) No! Kasie (53:32) ⁓ so I definitely think there are tools and ways to help yourself gain confidence in being able to ask questions, remain curious, and it always gives you the opportunity to be present. And that's what this is to everybody that's listening to us right now. These are opportunities. When we stop seeing it as a nerve wracking, Victoria (53:50) Mm-hmm. Kasie (54:00) you know, death defying experience and see it more as an opportunity, then I think we can really make different outcomes manifest themselves because when you go in with the appropriate attitude and mindset, all you're going to experience is growth. Whether it goes to a second date or third date, or it ends on a first date, you're still gonna experience growth because you did it and you did it with Chris (54:29) Love that. There are a couple of things that we would be remiss to miss ⁓ in the challenges that are here with this. ⁓ I'm going to mention them and see what you guys do with them as we need to of wrap up a little bit. Unrealistic expectations from social media. ⁓ Right? Pressure. Kasie (54:50) Yes. Victoria (54:52) Yeah, ⁓ 100%. Chris (54:56) that you feel to impress, you have to be impressive. The challenge and difficulty of being fully... The challenge of being fully vulnerable, like the terrifying reality of being vulnerable. And then lastly, particularly as we're on apps and things nowadays, the misinterpreted or misperceived communication gaps that happen with texting and other forms. John-Nelson Pope (54:58) Yeah. Victoria (55:01) Mm-hmm. Kasie (55:01) Not you are. Victoria (55:04) Right, Casey? Kasie (55:13) Okay. Victoria (55:14) huh. Chris (55:25) These are huge and somewhat modern day factors, particularly you midlife folks. You're not native to some of those things. These are the real challenges. What say you all? John-Nelson Pope (55:37) I'm thinking about people, there used to be an art, probably during World War II that it reached a high point, but after that, letter writing just has diminished. I think if you're able to express yourself on writing, then you think about it, you are actually making yourself very vulnerable by doing so. ⁓ and you express your soul. I think the problem with texting is no offense, Victoria, and I'm talking to you. ⁓ You know, and ⁓ I'm thinking, how do you even express that in terms of the deep thinking that needs to go in it? Victoria (56:27) Lots of emojis and exclamation points and gifts and yeah. John-Nelson Pope (56:30) Yeah. Think it out. Think it out. That's what I'm, Kasie (56:30) Bye. John-Nelson Pope (56:37) I'm encouraging that, that we do that. Victoria (56:40) Or what's a popular thing, not a lot of people do it, like in, especially, I don't know about like non-iPhone people, but you can do like send voice recording messages. And so I know a lot of people will, yeah, instead of texting, it's in the text message chain, but they'll do like verbal messages so that you can actually like communicate in your cadence and things like. John-Nelson Pope (56:54) Mm-hmm. You can do that. Victoria (57:10) the feelings with it rather than just texting it out. John-Nelson Pope (57:11) The nuance. The Chris (57:13) That is a great John-Nelson Pope (57:13) nuance. Chris (57:14) tip, Victoria. I just want to highlight that. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (57:17) Yeah, I've actually done that. So even I have done that. Chris (57:23) Even, even the Pope! Victoria (57:24) And not Chris's text to talk that he does, okay? But an actual voice recording memo where you can like, you know, sorry. John-Nelson Pope (57:29) I heard. Kasie (57:30) Yeah, I think. Chris (57:33) Totally guilty. We call for. Kasie (57:37) I think that there are a lot of misconceptions around vulnerability. And one reason that I think that is, is there's a lot of fad words that people now use to label everything, you know, that if you're too vulnerable, you're an oversharer, right? Or you're, yeah. And so vulnerability is not oversharing. Vulnerability is the sharing of feelings and experiences. Victoria (57:52) Mm-hmm. Chris (57:56) I hate that word. Kasie (58:06) with people, but you know, when you're being vulnerable with someone, it's because you're with a person who really has earned the right to hear your feelings. And if you don't feel that the person sitting in front you has earned the right to hear your feelings, yeah, you know, because without vulnerability, it's really difficult, almost impossible to experience anything deeper than a surface level John-Nelson Pope (58:20) I really like that. I'm going to mic drop. Victoria (58:22) Yeah, I love that. Kasie (58:37) like relationship. So you want to be sure of the person that you're being vulnerable with because it's never oversharing and you're never too much for your right person. You'll never be too much. Brene Brown said something and I think that this is a wonderful quote and I looked it up on Google so don't act like I'm like got this memorized but she said that vulnerability sounds like truth and feels like courage. Truth and courage aren't always comfortable, but they're never a weakness. Victoria (59:11) Yeah, there's this influencer, Elise Myers, ⁓ she said her famous saying is, I'm too much, go find less. So like. Chris (59:11) man. Kasie (59:17) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (59:24) That's funny. Well, my new motto is, hey, I know I'm a little extra, but that's better being lesser than I guess that's in the same ballpark. I love that. That's good, Victoria. Listen, we're going to do a segment before we wrap up with the shrink wrap up of practical questions. This is where we kind of talk directly to you, right? We're saying you're listening to the show and we're like almost like a therapist in our office and we're talking to you. Kasie (59:31) There you go. Victoria (59:31) Yeah, John-Nelson Pope (59:32) Okay. Victoria (59:32) if I'm too much, go find less. Love it. Chris (59:52) This is not the delivery of therapy services in any way, but this is the closest that we can get to you. So, practical question, I'll go first, that we're talking to you, ma'am, or you, sir, at home. Are you trying to impress someone? Are you trying to go about something in some sort of way where you feel that you need to do something special or do something big, or are you trying to just get to know them? There's a big difference between the two of them. So I want you to really think. Are you trying to impress somebody with what you're talking about or what you know or what you've done? Like a job interview? Or are you trying to get to know them and who they are, that sense of curiosity? Think about that. ⁓ Kasie (1:00:30) Yeah. Yeah, and to follow that up with, know, part of this of what we talked about today leads into my question, which is for anyone who's listening right now, ⁓ do you know how to build friendship before romance? Because just like what I mentioned in the before segment about vulnerability, you want people that are safe for you to be emotionally vulnerable with. In order to get to that place, there is a construct of friendship that has to take place first. So do you know how to do that? And if not, then follow some of the steps we talked about today, trying to build connection, trying to figure out groups. Some of the best and most interesting people I've dated in my life came from friends of friends. And that's how I met them because I went out with my friends who told me then about their friend instead of, you know, trying to necessarily just go through apps or. do things that are stressful or put you out there in a way with people who may or may not be safe for you. So do you know how to build friendship before room? Chris (1:01:43) Alright, think John, you have a question for people out there. Speak to them. John-Nelson Pope (1:01:49) Am I comfortable with the possibility of rejection? I think you may be asking yourself that. I think a lot of us ⁓ have, I think all of us have asked that question when we're outside of a certain relationship or an intimacy that we would like to have and develop with someone. One, you have to get yourself out there. You have to take that leap of faith and and say, okay, I'm willing to risk this, that person may say, no. In fact, I brought up something that happened to me 50 years ago before I met the love of my life and developed that. I had a sense of going out ⁓ with young ladies and Victoria (1:02:33) I'm going to to the toilet. John-Nelson Pope (1:02:44) And I said, okay, they're going to reject me. They're going to reject me. And invariably they would because I had that mindset. You have to be willing to risk and develop that confidence that step by step that you can live with that anxiety that comes with ⁓ possibility of rejection and know that one time, sometime, eventually you'll get it right. and you will not be rejected, you will be accepted because you will be more true to yourself and be more confident in your own self as well. Kasie (1:03:13) ⁓ you Victoria (1:03:23) Well, and even speaking of anxiety, you might even ⁓ ask yourself sometimes, you know, do I am I going to or am I currently approaching dating with curiosity or am I approaching it with anxiety? And kind of like we've talked about before and in previous episodes, like curiosity can really be a great thing to grasp onto. And honestly, that's how we can go out there and find new people and find new experiences and be able to put ourselves out there and build the confidence to be able to approach dating and continue to approach dating with curiosity instead of approaching it with anxiety, which tends to only hold us back and not allow us to reach like your potential, your full potential in the dating world. Chris (1:04:15) Absolutely good stuff. I hope you're listening. They're talking directly to you. We are so we are ready to wrap up the show today episode 354 What a show, you know, thank you guys for doing this, you know, I loved when we come together and Particularly as a full panel and have such a wealth of ideas a lot of things kind of come out in that So we usually wrap up with what we call the friendly competition that mr. John Pope loves the best right John is your favorite segment John-Nelson Pope (1:04:41) yeah, I just love that. Chris (1:04:44) Hey, Kasie (1:04:44) Bye. Victoria (1:04:44) John, John, did Chris tell you last week that I won the week before? John-Nelson Pope (1:04:50) No, he did not. And congratulations. Chris (1:04:50) Well, I can't keep track of all this. Well, he won last week. Victoria (1:04:52) And because you tried to play sappy music on top of your thing and it didn't work. Chris (1:05:01) Come on, I know right I gotta figure out my game Kasie (1:05:05) His dog just died, Victoria. What? Victoria (1:05:08) You Chris (1:05:09) Thank you Casey, thank you! Kasie (1:05:14) They Jaze! Victoria (1:05:16) Well, he knows that I already have all the empathy. Kasie (1:05:19) Bye now. Chris (1:05:19) ⁓ man, that was crushing. Yeah. Country roads, John. She's talking about country roads. Anyway, alright. Alright, listen, I'm gonna get my game up here today. This is the shrink wrap-up where we have a friendly competition that kind of wraps up the show and we summarize the points, the things, the things we're thinking about. Neil is our friendly judge behind the curtain. He comes out and declares a winner for the year. And we're keeping track this year of who gets as many wins in this friendly competition. Victoria (1:05:25) I am, I am. John-Nelson Pope (1:05:25) Great, great song, great song. Victoria (1:05:30) You Chris (1:05:49) Who's going first? Not me this time. Amen. Victoria (1:05:54) Yeah. Kasie (1:05:56) I'll go. So here is my sharing crap up. Dating is not about finding a person that completes you. It is about showing up as your most authentic, scarred, wonderful self and simply allowing someone to get to know you for you to know them and to enjoy each other in a very authentic and special way. Victoria (1:05:57) you Kasie (1:06:26) It is not scary. It is exciting. And if you're having trouble with getting there or understanding the mechanics or understanding yourself, then all I want you to do is one simple thing. Know that there is no one on this earth that is more you than you. And that is a quote by Dr. Seuss. So. You are fearfully and wonderfully made that's a quote from the Bible but you're fearfully and made for a reason and an intended purpose and Just know that when you show up as you That's the best thing that you can do for any other person in this world So be a light be a beacon and go out there and date Chris (1:07:13) Alright. Victoria (1:07:13) She just wrote her own Dr. Seuss book. Kasie (1:07:15) It's not! Chris (1:07:17) Victoria, since you're talking, you're next, girl. Victoria (1:07:18) Yeah, I'll go next. I'm going to do my street wrap up with more of my go-to idea for a first date. And that is, or a first time you get together with someone. And that is a coffee date. And here's why. Okay. One, coffee is easy and it's simple. It's just a cup of coffee, maybe a Danish or a pastry. And then you're already in a public place. So you're not like, in this awkward by yourself, okay? And if you're doing coffee in the middle of the week, right, you have two options. If it's going really well, you can extend the coffee date, right? It's really easy to be like, hey, let's go for a walk in the park or like, hey, there's the farmer's market or blah, blah. But if it's going bad, it's just a coffee date. It's just coffee. You finish your coffee really fast and then you're like, I gotta get back to work or like, I gotta go. And I think there's a lot of flexibility with it. And so then that's my shrink wrap up is to, know, if you're nervous about like what to do for our first date or for our first time get together, do the coffee. ⁓ So there's that. Kasie (1:08:29) Yes! Chris (1:08:30) Alright, love that. John, you and John-Nelson Pope (1:08:31) I think I Chris (1:08:33) I, should we do cut? John-Nelson Pope (1:08:34) want to say that it begins in junior high at going to youth groups, for example, or going and joining a museum and there's a bunch of kids there and you go and you do it with a group. I think that you also if you're in the band or in like a group, a vocal like the school chorus, you go to the back of the bus a couple of times and you you try out relationships and you do that. If you are older and more mature or you don't have practice, when you're in college, you give yourself that opportunity to join an interest group that's not segregated by age group or by gender, but you get a group where there are common interests and ⁓ you can meet somebody there. You meet some people at work as an opportunity, even if there is no dating policy in the employment, they have friends, and you have friends and friends introduce friends. But you do it in that sense of safety of the group. And I think that is a good thing. So I would build a bit on what Victoria said and also what Casey said. and that is ⁓ take some of the pressure off of you, off of yourselves and ⁓ feel safe. Chris (1:10:11) All right, here's my shrink wrap up. It's the full breadth of the whole human emotional experience and some of what each of us said. It starts with self. It starts with understanding yourself, loving yourself, caring about yourself, valuing yourself. And when you really get that and you enjoy that, it's kind of like freeze everything up. And so it really starts with the human emotional experience internal and getting grounded and comfortable and as John said, safe with that. And then... you simply find things that you have in common with another person. And then you simply talk about that and you get engaged with that. And that is fun because then you're going to find out the commonalities that you have and you've already comfortable with self. You've already found somebody then that's in tune with you because you have something in common and it begins to be just fun. It's fun to meet people. It's fun to connect with people. And then you begin to where that really gets fun is to try new things and to experience new experiences together. And that's when you get connection and loyalty and trust and, appreciation, and you get to experience little moments where they're so into you and you're so into them. And it gets to be more and more intimate, connected and safe. And that feels wonderful. If you're not dating and you want to start with yourself and get into putting yourself out there as Victoria says, because there's a lot of love out there. There's a lot of love to give. and there's a lot of love to receive. And I'm excited for you to experience that part of the human emotional experience. Neil (1:11:48) I'm just going to start flipping a coin. You guys really make it hard. This one, I'm going to give this one to Chris. I think he really hit on the head. Casey's was a close second. Victoria's was a great idea to start with. mean, John's was a great thing with the group. So mean, honestly, if you just take all four of what's here, work on yourself. Find the interest you like. And it'll blossom if that relationship's meant to be. But no pressure. Victoria (1:11:53) Hehehehehe Whoa! Sorry. Neil (1:12:19) just go experiment and go experience new things. Yeah, exactly. fun. If you don't have fun with who you're with, it's going to be a horrible, miserable time. So yeah, having fun is, to me, a big part of it. So there you go, Chris. Chris (1:12:21) Have fun, right? Life's about having fun. Yeah! John-Nelson Pope (1:12:22) Daniel, have fun! Enjoy yourself! Chris (1:12:31) Absolutely. All right, good stuff. I got one Victoria. So ⁓ we will catch you next week with the month in review. Mr. Kyle, Victoria, what are you doing to me? Victoria (1:12:35) Yay! Is not? Chris (1:12:45) She muted herself thankfully. All right, Mr. Kyle King's gonna hang out with us with the April month in review and then we'll fire it back up in, ⁓ gosh, we're pushing into May, guys. All right, take care, stay well. See you next week. Kasie (1:12:55) Bye! John-Nelson Pope (1:12:56) Whoa. Man, you're just pressing Victoria (1:12:57) Crazy. John-Nelson Pope (1:13:00) out all over. Yeah, so anyway.