This episode takes a deeper look at casual sex through an emotional health lens, asking whether these experiences leave us feeling more connected or more alone, and what we are really hoping they will give us. Through a Therapist’s Eyes explores how dating apps and fast-paced hookup culture make it easier than ever to find sex but harder to feel emotionally secure, creating a gap between what our minds decide and what our hearts experience. Drawing on attachment science, brain chemistry, and clinical work, this episode explains why one-night stands can bring short-term excitement but often lead to emptiness, confusion, or emotional letdown when deeper needs like connection, validation, or comfort go unmet. Listeners are invited to reflect on whether casual sex is serving their growth or quietly reinforcing loneliness, and to ask more honest questions about vulnerability, self-worth, and the kind of relationships they truly want to build.
Tune in to see a One Night Stand Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- After the experience is over, do one-night stands typically leave people feeling more connected or more alone?
- Are one-night stands about sexual freedom—or emotional avoidance?
- What emotional need do people hope a one-night stand will meet?
Links referenced during the show:
Carter, C. S. (1998)
“Neuroendocrine Perspectives on Social Attachment and Love”
📍 Psychoneuroendocrinology https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306453098000195
“Hooking Up and Psychological Well-Being in College Students” https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-23334-001
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/relationshiptoothers
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #339 Transcription
Chris (00:02) Hello, this is Through a Therapist's Eyes and we are coming to you sharp and early in 2026. This is January the 8th and I'm gonna call it episode 339. It's a one night stand is the title of it and it's a little bit of a follow up on last week's show that we did where we really reviewed all of 2025. It was really a cool show. I hope you check it out. It was a great little bookend for what we did in 2025 and moving into 26. One of the things that we decided is Casey, who is, know, Casey's back is the theme. She's, uh, this was one of the ones that she wanted to be on, but then she had a family crisis or emergency come up. So I'm not sure if she's going to make it on, but that's why we're doing this again, because it was actually episode three Oh eight. And we have a different track, a different, you know, line of thinking for three 39 that we're doing this week. But, um, we'll get into that and hopefully Casey will be able to join us. So. Victoria (00:41) Okay. Chris (00:59) Listen, we at Threutherepisize believe that mental health is really important for all of us and honestly getting even more important as we move along. All right, that's the truth. ⁓ We give you insights directly in personal time at home or in your car, knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. We like to give you three questions to think about while we're doing the show so that you can kind of ponder in your own mind after the experience is over of a one night stand. Do one night stands typically leave people feeling more connected or more alone? Question mark. Second, are one night stands about sexual freedom or emotional avoidance? And then thirdly, what emotional need do people hope a one night stand will meet? You'll see those on our website as well, therotherapistize.com if you want to ponder them later as well, because those are pretty deep questions that make you think a little bit, right? Victoria (01:47) you Chris (01:56) I got the book out through therapist eyes re-understanding emotions and becoming your best self also one on marriage. I haven't marketed a whole lot. I need to talk about it, get it going, but instead I'll talk about through a therapist eyes subscribe, click the buttons, help us out with the likes. ⁓ John loves to highlight the fact that we need to get three stars. you're, ⁓ I got it wrong. What happened? Victoria (01:56) you John-Nelson Pope (02:17) Bye! You gotta get five stars. Not three stars. Chris (02:23) ⁓ Victoria (02:24) No. Chris (02:26) I thought we were different this year. Just having fun with it, click the buttons, tell a friend. I get to announce that we have not one, not two, but three new YouTube subscribers. Neil, how about that? John-Nelson Pope (02:29) now. Victoria (02:44) Yay! Neil (02:46) Yeah, I saw that. Chris (02:47) So we got Ronel Boromo, we got Tiffany Harris, and actually interesting, I swear this wasn't timed, Romancey, but you know, somebody has the, the, call name on, on YouTube, Romancey and Routine. I thought that was absolutely funny because we're doing a show on One Night Sting, so I don't know, that wasn't planned, that was just a thing. Uh, what else do we got? Contacted through Therapist Eyes, good way to talk to us. We start up live a little bit after six, usually about 6.15, we're a little late today. was trying to wait on Casey and figure out what was going on with that. But it's a great way to interact with us live when we're doing the show. So we know that this is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together. And that's our goal. So I don't know, guys. ⁓ also, Neil, we got to say that there was a there was a puzzle that was somebody made it out. Can you can you did you notice that? Neil (03:39) I saw that, hopefully they have better luck with it than we did, because that was tough. Chris (03:44) It was a hard, hard puzzle. We do have a puzzle. Yes, we have merchandise. You can buy merch and it helps to support the show and it's really helpful. And we're really glad towards the end of the year somebody got a through a therapist-ized puzzle. ⁓ Email us, let us know how you like it, how it's going for you because the white sections are very difficult. I concur with Neil. We had a whole, we had all of us on it, I think, Neil. Your wife was banging it out and Victoria, you were hitting it, if I remember correctly. Yeah, it was challenging. Victoria (03:44) So did someone order the puzzle? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I was trying. I don't know if I was being successful, but I was trying. Chris (04:17) Did you get any of the pieces in the right place? Victoria (04:20) think so, I think I got a handful, but yeah, it's tricky because then there were several pieces that felt like they could go multiple places. Chris (04:28) Indeed. We do have a little bit of a current event I want to go with. Have you guys have you guys caught because you're new to the show listening this year, we kind of talk about current events that are going on. I don't know. I don't think I want to spend a whole lot of time on it. ⁓ But it's definitely in, I think, people's hearts and minds with the Minneapolis shooting. I guess he had an ICE agent that shot a lady. ⁓ Victoria (04:30) So, you know. Chris (04:58) Have you guys caught that news story? Victoria (05:01) Huh? John-Nelson Pope (05:01) ⁓ I... Yes. Chris (05:04) Do you have factual ability to cite what we know now? Because I have not watched it at all today and I'm very limited on what I saw yesterday. I have a comment about it, why I brought it up, but what's the schematics that you know for sure? Victoria (05:04) Yeah. As far as I know, she was a bystander that was trying to help or something. And then she was taken to the hospital, but then she succumbed to her injuries there. John-Nelson Pope (05:34) Now, I've got a different version of that. I think the thing is she was said to be a legal observer, is somehow it's not a real thing in terms of legality or in the... Victoria (05:36) Is that correct? Chris (05:37) Yeah, I don't think so either. Victoria (05:39) See, yeah. Mmm. John-Nelson Pope (05:55) legal system, but the idea is that they wear vests and they are to observe, but it's to make sure that the police are not engaging in ⁓ police brutality. ⁓ She evidently was an activist. That was my understanding. ⁓ From one angle, it looked like ⁓ she was just shot. ⁓ on the other angle it looked like she had actually hit somebody and hit the ICE agent and he had had a prior event where he was dragged ⁓ in another protest and so it perhaps he reacted viscerally and shot. ⁓ So we don't know what motives are and to be able to jump to any conclusion whatsoever I think is is premature. ⁓ I think it just ⁓ has to be taken in terms of the tragedy that occurred. This is a woman that lost her husband a few years ago or her spouse, her partner, and she had a new partner, but their child that they shared was the first person. So the child is an orphan now. And so on both sides, there are people that are deploring what happened. ⁓ But one would say it was justified. The ICE agents would say it was justified. ⁓ On the other side, they would say the protesters, this is absolutely a tragedy and that ICE is at fault. Chris (07:48) So thank you for that, John. It's a little bit of an update. I have not, I kind of intended to want to cite, you know, an article and have specifics and Victoria, precisely that why, because I don't, we were not a news agency, you know, so I'm not too worried about our like, you know, reporting and whatnot, because that's not our purpose, but we are commenting on the mental health elements and John, thank you. That's eloquently kind of looking at like what happened and what are the dynamics from both sides and how it looks. Victoria (08:01) Yeah. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (08:15) Both sides, yeah. Chris (08:19) Because that's what we need to be able to do. Okay. My main point of the mental health element on a, an event like this is I just happened to catch it as it was pretty fresh, raw and new, ⁓ last evening. I have not looked at anything this, this week, this afternoon or today. I tried when I got home and I saw the different networks were not playing. 24 seven of this event. was very happy about that because you know how these news cycles go. My main thing is is like literally the woman was still you know in her car. Okay. And people were already completely formulating views completely making accusations and going over the top to look at who's accountable and responsible like our leaders or politicians or anyone who came across this information was like John the highlight. And what you said is, it's premature to make any assures as accusations, make any assertions to. Let's be very careful at how fast we move on these types of things. That's dangerous to our mental health. Would you agree? John-Nelson Pope (09:19) Yeah. definitely. I would agree. think that in the perspectives, it's important to let's say that this would be determined in a court of law or in a sense of that there would be some common commonality in saying how do we discern what is true and what is the truth. And we may not quite ever know. ⁓ That certainly may not change how people Victoria (09:52) you John-Nelson Pope (10:05) will react to it. mean, they may say, okay, despite this visual evidence that, let's say, would ⁓ absolve the ICE agent, or they would feel that it was unjustified, or let's say he's not absolved, and the ICE people or the government would say, there was a, you know, it's not fair. And so, we have to mentally, I think with mental health, is to not take sides but actually to help people work through those entangled emotions and complex emotions, perhaps grief. Chris (10:47) And John, I think honestly, a lot of ways we fail as an industry in that regard. And I hope I don't upset somebody, but instead I hope I motivate people to kind of begin thinking in the exact ways that you just looked at. We really have, I believe, a need to be in the front of these types of things to help people process the things that are going on, not in joining the swarm in what people are emotionally reacting to. ⁓ It's devastating and I don't know that we do that so well, know, as an industry, as a mental health industry. John-Nelson Pope (11:26) So. Chris (11:27) And that's unfortunate, because I think that's a really important task that some element of society needs to be able to create some decorum and get some balanced, you know, emotional processing on this stuff. John-Nelson Pope (11:41) Look at it at three. And it goes from, let's say, depending on how you look at it, but in other words, the taking of Maduro and his wife, going from that flawless exercise, then to it. Chris (12:02) You mean from our military, John-Nelson Pope (12:03) from our military to, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying that it was a tour de force. Then second is ⁓ Stephen Miller and Trump saying, ⁓ well, ⁓ or Trump saying we're gonna run Venezuela and then Marco Rubio saying, no, we're not gonna do that. ⁓ That's not what is meant. And then Trump saying that we do. then, so the news goes that way. and then Stephen Miller says we're going to take Greenland, we're not going to rule that out, you know, and then, and then the very same day, doggone it, this happens in Minneapolis, and somebody dies, and you know that, and we have gone, and now there's protest. Chris (12:40) Things move so fast. John-Nelson Pope (12:58) and it's because of ice and making the raids and that sort of thing. But it seems like coal is, fuel is being added to the fire. And how do we as therapists help with putting out that fire and actually helping people make informed, intelligent, dispassionate ⁓ statements or beliefs or understanding of what discussion. I'd like to return to that. Chris (13:28) Yeah. And it reminds me, John, I think honestly, of going back to the COVID era, know, where I was like really trying to highlight on our platform, the idea of being prudent, ⁓ you know, but not being, allowing fear to be in front of the, you know, the decision making so that we could be balanced in the way that we go about it. So we could go on for this a little bit if we wanted to. mean, honestly, ⁓ it's my newest favorite topic. It's, I'm sorry? Victoria (13:52) No, it, stand time somewhere else. Chris (13:57) Oh, it's my newest favorite topic, you know, with the rapid pace of news and the way that we engage things. yeah, let's move on, I think. But, you know, if we need to get onto things like that, we'll, you I want us at least here through therapist size to be able to facilitate what it is that you're eloquently talking about, John, because I don't know that we have a lot of people trying to do it. But let's get into the topic of One Night Stands, episode 339, where we are revisiting John-Nelson Pope (14:04) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris (14:27) What we talked about before, what we talked about before was, interestingly enough, is it worth it? Right? There's a little bit of a moral question or a value question. You know, do you have a one night stand and do you value that? Or is it, is it not worth it to you? How do we go about dealing with it? This is a little bit of a different thought process that we have today with what are we trying to solve? Or what are people trying to do? Like, what are the, what are the behaviors? I mean, look at the questions that we, talked about again, right? Like, Victoria (14:28) Letters move. Chris (14:56) What do they typically leave people feeling more of, connected or alone? What is the behavior about? So guess we're gonna be a little bit of behaviorists today. Victoria, you done much pure behaviorist work? I'm curious. Victoria (15:07) Your behaviorist work? No. But yes, I have incorporated some behaviorism things into my therapy. Chris (15:08) Pure. Pure. Because to me, that's a little bit about what this is. We're experiencing something, we're trying to solve for something, and we've got a behavior that is engaged without us maybe even realizing it, or maybe we do realize it, what it is that we're trying to get at. I don't know that people are operating cognition-wise with this, John. I think it's more behavior and impulse driven. Does that sound crazy? John-Nelson Pope (15:44) Doesn't sound crazy at all. I'm thinking that... ⁓ that. Well, ⁓ I'm going through this in terms of the, I think if we overthink this, we're gonna get onto some little dog trails or dog whatever they call that. ⁓ I'm thinking that we really do need to, ⁓ Just kind of say there are some things that are behaviorally mediated and we have to be able to be aware of that and accept that with ourselves and be aware of when we do this. ⁓ Maybe I'm not making sense but what do you think? Chris (16:38) I didn't fully track with you on that. I think you're kind of saying, let's be careful about going down some rabbit holes on things that don't matter, but what matters most in your mind when we're trying to contend with this? John-Nelson Pope (16:45) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, yeah, one of the things I think matters most is, the person gonna be intact? Let's say if the person is someone that does these one night stands, maybe I'm misunderstanding this, is that that person is damaged as a result of not being able to develop. Chris (16:54) So, yeah. Victoria (17:18) you John-Nelson Pope (17:19) deeper relationships or meaningful relationships and that their lives are basically transactional. Lord knows we have enough transactional of really, you know, when people hook up, I have clients that are younger and they talk about they're friends with benefits and I'm going to use the term vulgar, fuck buddies. Well, that says it all, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. They're not really... They're not committed emotionally to that person. It's more of a physical thing. ⁓ Chris (17:49) Indeed. Yeah, no, I think we're saying the same thing. know, at least my head's in the same space where it is a deeper dive into like, what are people really after? And I don't know that people are used to really thinking about that. And as a therapist, I try to help people to begin to understand a little bit more, to have some insight about what their process is. how are you really experiencing this? What are you really after? Because If you get it and stay in the cognitive lane, it's going to be very much cut short and it's going to be minimized in the depth of what happens with two people really connecting. And we have all sorts of things, John. Yeah. guess we'll mark this, ⁓ this video, ⁓ in the old explicit when we got fuck buddies, got, we got kitchen table, couples we have, we have swinging. have, you know, fetish kink communities and we've all kinds of things that are out there now. All kinds of things that are out there now. And. John-Nelson Pope (18:58) Yeah, and I, the old guy, you the explicit designation. Chris (18:59) You you call that a one night stand. ⁓ Yeah, Victoria (19:06) I love it, I love it, I love it. Chris (19:09) Don led us into the explicit. But I mean, that, that, you know, even maybe we need to define this a little bit, it occurs to me. I didn't think about this organizing this show a little bit, but what is a one night stand? Do we even have a simple definition anymore? Cause I don't know that it's just, you know, boy meets girl in a bar, you take girl home, girl has sex with boy, boy's happy and somebody takes the walk of shame even as a phrase that we used to talk about in in the yesterdays. don't know, you know, that's not necessarily a one night stand. John-Nelson Pope (19:11) Yeah. Well, you know, Chris (19:36) anymore. John-Nelson Pope (19:36) I think it's very, you've got to, I'm of that generation where there was a tension between you want to get as far as to many bases as you can to have sex with the most beautiful girl in the world. and you do that and yet it was something that was to be prohibited and something that was not good for young women that you would put a number in the bathroom you know like 8673 whatever that song is right jenny jenny yeah Chris (20:08) Yeah, telephone number. Victoria (20:13) 867-5309. Chris (20:15) 8 6 7 5 oh man John-Nelson Pope (20:20) And so there's that dichotomy. mean, for one, it's slut-shaming. And then the other one is, you know, I'm a hero because I'm among my peers. And so, yeah. Chris (20:32) being a gypsy. You know, I think there's lots of elements to it, you know, where, you know, my newest favorite topic, right, is this keeps on coming up. It's not on purpose. I think it's how culture has shifted. All the apps, the faster moving access, you know, I mean, I'm in the dating world now a little bit. I just can't imagine being on an app and just swiping, swiping, swiping. Instead, I'm like meeting people and getting to know them a little bit. and figuring like, okay, well, that's not gonna work. I'm not interested in that, but that is. John-Nelson Pope (21:02) You're dismissing them. You're swiping right or swiping left and you're just kind of... there's objects and things and... Yeah. Yeah. Chris (21:06) It's- Yeah, it's like a freaking, it's like a couch, John. It's just like a couch. And, Victoria (21:10) HELLO! Chris (21:15) you know, and these, these hookups, mean, things are, you know, you think you have so much more availability and as with most things, you know, what is it, what is, what are you looking for? Because loneliness is going off, out the roof. You know, anxieties are, are expanding in people's experience. You know, I mean, this is John-Nelson Pope (21:32) Did you read the article that said that men are, middle-aged men, that is 45 to 65, are the loneliest of people right now, that they're feeling loneliness even more. Right. Chris (21:47) really? Victoria (21:49) You said 45 to 65? Okay. John-Nelson Pope (21:53) I mean, I'd always heard it was like if you're really old or like my age or something, you can, know, if you're widowed or widower, but it's the people that are in 45 to 65, which, you know, our intrepid leader here is in that age range. yeah. Chris (22:18) That's right. And I think it's a lot of divorced men, John, I'd be curious about the statistics on that because I think a lot of people are landing in those spaces after their second marriage, third or whatever. John-Nelson Pope (22:24) Yeah. ⁓ But they're doing, they're playing it, they're doing the swiping and all of that and yet they're very lonely and I think a lot of that might come in and having somebody that is, you're sexually intimate and but you're not spiritually intimate at all, emotionally intimate. It's divorced from ⁓ authentic relationships. What do you think? Chris (22:52) Yeah, and I just want to highlight again, Victoria, we're not talking about the moral conversation. The first time was like, is it worth it? This is more about what's the emotional health element? What is this doing for you or against you, right? Victoria (23:08) Well, yeah, and I can't remember because apparently I don't remember being on the last episode at all. ⁓ Like, right, yeah. But I can't remember if we talked about like the fact how in the moment it feels emotionally fulfilling, but then afterwards, it feels like in the moment when you're caught in like the throes of passion or whatever you want to call it, then like, yeah, I mean. Chris (23:14) We've been ribbing her for that. Go there. Victoria (23:37) You're like, this is what I need right now. This feels great. Like, blah, blah, blah. But then, yeah, like kind of hinting at like the walk of shame kind of thing or whatever. Like, you know, when you get up in the morning or when you leave or whatever, like, then it starts to hit you that, ⁓ yeah, it's kind of like, like I was telling Chris yesterday about a, like a friend of mine who's also a therapist, like, Chris (23:57) What just happened? What did I do? Victoria (24:06) something she had told me. And at first she had told me that like she had an initial reaction to this client when something happened. And then, but it wasn't until like on her way home did that like feeling switch. And she then felt kind of like a 180 of what she initially felt afterwards. Like once she had put distance in between like this client and work and was on her way home, did she really? like start to process like what actually happened. Stop, dude. Chris (24:41) Yeah, and people are. Go ahead, John. John-Nelson Pope (24:41) Okay. had, in my day, we had a ⁓ wonderful song by Meat Loaf called Paradise by the Dashboard Light. And that's in your time. That was my early adulthood. ⁓ so, and you, you know, you get caught up in the passion and ⁓ for the release and then you... Chris (24:50) That's it my time brother John-Nelson Pope (25:09) end up regretting it. Chris (25:12) It's a wonderful little duet, isn't it? John-Nelson Pope (25:14) Yeah, his wonderful meatloaf was so good. yeah. Chris (25:17) and then went back and forth, back and forth, just like, you know, again, things are now are happening so fast that I don't know that people have the ability to kind of catch up with their mental health and their experience in it. So let's look at this and move on with like, we did an excellent show recently too, very recently, 3.36. And it was intellectual versus emotional functioning. And this came up in this show prep because, you know, if you think about it, when, John-Nelson Pope (25:26) Mm-hmm. Chris (25:44) you know, you're engaged in a one night stand or in an immediate or quick sexual experience, you know, what are you really functioning on? Are you on the emotional level or are you on the intellectual level? And how does that, how do you differentiate between what's, you know, what's going on for you? On the intellectual level, you know, you might begin thinking I could do whatever I want to do. There's no rules. I don't have to follow rules anymore. I'm divorced or I'm not happy or whatever. I'm an adult. ⁓ Intellectually, you might begin to think, hey, I can separate sex from feeling, ⁓ you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not a child. I'm not immature, right? We can be mature here in the kink communities. hear people saying all the time, we have to have good boundaries. have rules and we follow those rules and it creates emotional safety. see your face, John, you know, but this is what people are talking about. It's the intellectual level that you're thinking, but then the emotional level, have absolute attachment systems that are activating. John-Nelson Pope (26:17) you Chris (26:44) It's an automatic process. So on the emotional level, you have physical realities going on where you get explosions of dopamine and oxytocin. These are chemicals that, know, Victoria, you're talking about the heat of the passion. I mean, that's a chemical kind of thing. You are exploding automatically with that. And you're creating hope and vulnerability. have a core tension that people often make these intellectual decisions about sex, but then the experience, the emotional consequences they didn't plan for, which is what I think Victoria, you were talking about, what happened last night. So there's all sorts of things are exploding, behaviorally, emotionally, and intellectually. And I guess my curiosity is what do you think that does to the mental health element of relating to people in that way? Victoria (27:22) Yeah. Chris (27:36) Lot going on there. Victoria (27:42) Are you asking us? Was that a rhetorical question? Yeah. Chris (27:42) I think I'm just. I think I'm processing it with you. Yeah, we're figuring out the human emotional experience, Victoria. mean, last time we spoke about the intellectual and emotional level, right? When one takes over, the other one goes down. John-Nelson Pope (27:58) But you see, that's the thing is that maybe this is from my training, my background is the idea that we ⁓ are both and we are both emotion and ⁓ intellectual. That there's that aspect that you can't just sequester or silo. I'm going to just separate myself intellectually from something. with a physical act that someone would do a physical sexual act, can't just... You can say that you will separate yourself and you will not be emotionally involved and all that, but I think that catches up with you. Unless you are someone with a personality disorder and you might be a sociopath or something like that. Yeah, maybe. Chris (28:52) A.V. John-Nelson Pope (28:56) I don't think a person's hope and long and ache to be in a relationship that also includes their intellect and their spirit. Okay, so there is a little bit of a moral issue with it, but that's me. That's my background. So... Chris (29:20) Well, yeah, you know, I hear you, John. And I think, you know, it's interesting as I got to thinking about and preparing for this a little bit more in depth, you'll see later on, I think we can talk about it now. You know, there is a element where the emotional needs can be grounded. Your emotional goals, your gut level, what am I doing here, can be in a place where you're really securely attaching. know, sex, you would just be sex. You know, it doesn't have to be all intellectual, spiritual, you know, adjoining of the union and the souls, right? So say some. In there, potentially, I would raise the idea that when you really, really have a high level of balance, you know, that you might be able to attain that. The problem is, I don't know who's there a whole lot, right? I mean, I really don't. John-Nelson Pope (30:16) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (30:18) Because we have in EFT functions, your abandonment insecurities are going to explode or your engulfment insecurities are going to explode. And so your insecurity states just arise unintentionally. So theoretically, it's kind of possible that people could stay grounded, you know, but I'm not so sure many people have that capacity. John-Nelson Pope (30:43) I'm wondering, I think emotional intelligence is very important. They have a high emotional quotient ⁓ and that doesn't necessarily belong to the smartest or the most, what our culture says, the most intelligent. It's the person, yeah, that I would, and I, God forbid I'm saying this, but I would rather be emotionally intelligent than ⁓ intellectually intelligent. Chris (31:00) Correct. John-Nelson Pope (31:12) that makes sense Chris (31:12) That's because you're super intellectually intelligent. I think I'd like to be more intellectually intelligent than emotionally intelligent. John-Nelson Pope (31:20) Well, but I'm saying this is that I want to have good relationships. I want to be able to. Chris (31:21) But but but but Yes, I get your point. I get your point. And I love that you brought this up, John, because you are taking me back in my brain, at least, to where we talked about in 336, intellectual versus emotional, because it was an interesting sort of definition, if you will, of emotional intelligence that I hadn't quite heard of before. And that was when you're able to keep your intellect engaged at the same time as your emotional system begins behaviorally experiencing things. John-Nelson Pope (31:54) Bye. Chris (31:54) And that midpoint, as close to you can get is that, is emotionally intelligent. John-Nelson Pope (31:59) Yeah. And that's exactly what you say in our openings. In the opening, it's that intersection, you know? Victoria (32:02) you ⁓ Chris (32:09) Yep, Victoria (32:10) Here. Chris (32:10) the human emotional experience, right? And dare I say it gets dangerously, precariously lost on some level when we engage in that intensity. And again, the core tension, ⁓ People want to make intelligent decisions about sex, but then experience emotional consequences we didn't plan for. ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (32:13) Right. Chris (32:36) That's that imbalance. where that intersection gets imbalanced. And I don't think people really deal with that. I think they just sort of let the chips fall where they may and kind of go along with it. John-Nelson Pope (32:47) We're in rutting Victoria (32:47) Hope for John-Nelson Pope (32:48) season. We're in rutting season. Yeah, rutting. Yeah, we're rutting. Yeah, that's hormones. Just... Chris (32:51) We're in running season? Is that what you said? right, okay. It took me a second to understand what you mean. Can you explain running? Victoria (33:01) Mhmm John-Nelson Pope (33:03) Rudding is usually around with deer and let's say antelope and that sort of thing. get a real strong. Victoria (33:12) I love you, kids. John-Nelson Pope (33:16) you get the male gets very, and goats like mountain rams and things like that, they get very strong. They get one directed, they have to mate and they'll fight other males for dominance and all of that. And overpowering drive, yeah, very much. And we have that drive. It's just that. Chris (33:34) like an overpowering drive. was gonna say, I was gonna ask that. Do you think we have that level to that extent? John-Nelson Pope (33:47) No, not to that level. We're not Klingons or anything. Yeah, or Vulcans. are. Star Trek, yeah. But we are, ⁓ I think we do have it as males and I'm sure females have it to a certain extent. Chris (33:49) Okay? I love that, Victoria. Victoria (34:03) Cheers. Chris (34:06) All right, well let's move on with what research ⁓ is showing, kind some of what we kind of understand about the biology of stuff here. I don't know, John, you were checking out the article. I don't know if this is where we put the article in that you were looking at. was a. Victoria (34:07) I'll come. Mommy, I want milk. Here, you wanna sit up here? Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (34:21) sexually dimorphic patterns of cortical asymmetry and the role for sex steroid hormones in determining cortical patterns of lateralization. In other words, when we're in utero and we got a... Chris (34:31) You John-Nelson Pope (34:37) Women have two X chromosomes and men have an XY chromosome. The brains are different. They're bathed in, immediately bathed in for males. We do have estrogen, but more for testosterone and the brains develop. Women are the same thing and so the cells as the brain develops the cells will go ⁓ C-E-L-L-S will ⁓ go into different areas and become more active ⁓ and ⁓ in... males, they'll become more active in females. The women are much better and Neil has the book that he's going to show you is that women are better at integrating between and mediating between the right and the left hemispheres. Okay, so Victoria (35:14) Ha. Wait, hold on. Yeah, but you only know about Neil's book because of what I said. John-Nelson Pope (35:38) Yes, I do. That's right. So. Chris (35:41) You gotta see YouTube, he's holding up the book in the background. John-Nelson Pope (35:44) Men are like waffles and women are like spaghetti. And Victoria, because you mentioned it, why don't you tell us the difference? Because then you get this article. You will have, without having read it, you will sum up the article. Victoria (35:52) Mm-hmm. I do. Yeah. Okay, so from what I know about it, is ⁓ men are like waffles because a waffle has like the individual sections, right? Well, men can like literally zone in and like, stop touching stuff, dude, can zone in and like think about like laser focus one thing at a time, right? Like one little square at a time. If they only wanna focus on purple socks, they can literally only focus on purple socks. Like they can just. Stop dude. Where it Meanwhile, ⁓ women are like spaghetti. So I specifically say cook spaghetti rather than just like regular spaghetti because we're all like intertwined and you can't tell where one thought ends and what the next stop begins and stop touching stuff is silly goose. Chris (36:51) Victoria, you're gonna have to help people understand who you're talking to and you're not talking Victoria (36:57) Dude, he's trying to, this three year old's trying to touch everything. Okay dude, you're done anyways. John-Nelson Pope (36:57) She's talking to her husband. So what you're saying is there's, women can, ⁓ in short, can basically see connections that in terms of relationships and they might actually bond in different ways, whereas men might be able to just ⁓ put it in a silo or in a waffle and it doesn't seem to affect them emotionally. Victoria (37:13) Yeah, go play some saxophone. You can count on me. Chris (37:34) we compartmentalize and they operate on Kinect. John-Nelson Pope (37:34) but a compartmental. Victoria (37:38) Sorry, thank you, John. John-Nelson Pope (37:38) And I think that perhaps ⁓ men are more affected than just waffling. ⁓ We might actually have, we have that physical, ⁓ we also have a connection, but it's a different way of understanding it than like women do. So. Chris (38:00) I'm going to throw a little bit of a cat and mouse or a bomb in the middle of this maybe and kind of suggest there are gender differences and they're definitely going to impact the way that we experience these experiences. I don't, I don't begrudge that, but I'm going to make the statement ⁓ that, and I felt this in a lot of ways. It's one of the reasons why I love EFT, emotion focused therapy, because the attachment styles that we have matters more than gender. The way that we engage, you know, this experience of attaching, you know, John-Nelson Pope (38:05) Please do. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (38:31) I with, for instance, I may have gone in a period of time where it was a long drought of affection and my attachment style with abandonment then find somebody and like, bam, I could just imagine this explosion of like, my gosh, I got this oxytocin, I have this affection and I longed for it, I wanted it and it just, you know, it can be honestly devastating because it's too much. John-Nelson Pope (38:47) Mm-hmm. Chris (38:57) as opposed to just developing a secure attachment and managing things. Or an engulfment person who's really just shut down and numbed out and for whatever reason, finally engages in a relationship, call it a one night stand or whatnot. And then boom, kind of comes out from under the shell that they've been in for a long time. But then experiences, my God, back to Victoria, your statement. What did I do? What just happened? What are the consequences? Victoria (39:23) Mm-hmm. Chris (39:24) So I think these, these attachment styles and how you're experiencing that honestly is way more ⁓ impactful than waffles and boys and girls and differences in, in wiring. John-Nelson Pope (39:35) So you're saying, so we talked about behavioral very much and you kind of put me on the spot a little bit about that because I was deep in thought and I lost my thoughts. But anyway, coming back to this, but ultimately, no, no, you did fine. So my... Chris (39:52) Sorry, I think. John-Nelson Pope (39:57) My thought is that you're coming to the idea of more of the integration, that there's the emotional ⁓ EFT ⁓ therapy, right? In other words, emotionally focused. ⁓ So ⁓ that actually is more of operative. And so... It can overcome biology. Our brains aren't as... ⁓ Our inability as males to spaghettiize is overcome by... It can be overcome by our... I guess our ability to be emotionally focused. Huh, part? Yeah. Chris (40:48) The explosion. The explosion. John-Nelson Pope (40:53) Well. Chris (40:53) Maybe I'm not sure if this is, if this fits, what, what you're triggering me to think about is like, you know, we, we want something out of this engagement, whatever that might be. But then we get into the experience of it and it's way more than we imagined, you know, what it was. And it's almost like a reverse trauma. That's those are the words that came to me. Right. Reverse trauma. It's almost like there's an explosion of activity there. John-Nelson Pope (41:16) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (41:24) And how do you, just shuts other things down. It like takes over in the short term, but then you've got the long term and the, and the deeper questions of what am I really after here? What am I trying to accomplish? Come to the surface. John-Nelson Pope (41:31) Yeah. Oh, okay. Let me ask you this. When I was in high school and in college, I fell in love so many times and it was the most wonderful feeling in the world and all the oxytocin and all the serotonin and all that. Just, I just felt so alive and all that. Chris (42:01) Ray, Ray? John-Nelson Pope (42:04) And I remember it now like it was just a moment ago ⁓ during those times. But ⁓ I'm just kind of wondering if ⁓ what happens is when we get into a relationship, you start losing some of that. ⁓ immediacy and you ⁓ and that warmth yeah in long-term issue what if you're just having somebody that's an f buddy like i talked about earlier and you start with that because that's the bonding that takes place and you interrupt that bonding and so you don't build a long-term relationship and it makes it cripples you i think Chris (42:29) You the long term issue. Yeah, there's no. John-Nelson Pope (42:54) keeps you from being able to make those relationships because you'll just go for the... Chris (42:58) Well, it goes counteractive what it is that you're maybe trying to do with forming Victoria (43:02) you Chris (43:02) a relationship. You know, you might not be forming a relationship in your intention though. I mean, you got to have that understanding. mean, are we trying to form a relationship here or not? John-Nelson Pope (43:02) Right. Right. Yeah. Chris (43:17) But I think you're almost always doing it. John-Nelson Pope (43:19) Yeah, well, most of the girls I ever dated, they didn't want to make a relationship. I'm joking. Chris (43:25) No? What's funny that you say that because I think that's even more prevalent now, John. Like I said, you know, the impulse is driving the behaviors and the decisions much more. You know, I've got a younger son right now. He's in his twenties and he people don't want to be serious out here. They're not really looking for that. I'm like, really? Wow. What's that mean? What's going on? And I think it's just, you know, there's a self-exposed driven. We don't have the vulnerability capacity. We're really sort of engaged in fast dating. John-Nelson Pope (43:35) Yeah. ⁓ Victoria (43:35) you John-Nelson Pope (43:48) Mm-hmm. Chris (43:57) in things that look interesting, we meet, we greet, we mate, and then we move on. Right, left, right, left, and we move on. I don't think people are building the space to contain a connection as much because they're not thinking that that's gonna sustain what it is that they want. John-Nelson Pope (43:57) Mm-hmm. Swipe right, swipe left. Victoria (44:06) Okay. John-Nelson Pope (44:15) I'm seeing Victoria grin and laugh and I'm wondering what are you doing? What are are so fuddy-duddy's not getting it? What? Chris (44:19) I just wanting to check in there. Victoria (44:24) guess it's, yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's interesting to hear people that are not millennials to our agency to like, comment on these things. Because I think a lot of times, like, I know we're talking about the mental load of it, but I think a lot of times people my age and younger, and I could be wrong, but I think a lot of times, the reason that they do things like Tinder, swipe left, swipe right, they do these dating app things, is sometimes because they don't want to put in the mental effort to have a fully sustaining relationship and that, and I mean, y'all could have already mentioned this and I just missed it, but that it's just easier sometimes to have this quick connection and then yeah, it might be awkward afterwards or yeah, might, I might. like have a certain amount of regret or something on my way home, but, but, but, but, sorry, my kid is carrying around our robot vacuum. But yeah. And so, like, Chris (45:37) Okay. Well, no, I really appreciate, I really appreciate that Victoria. Here's why. Because you know, John and I think we're hitting on it and touching on it, but I feel like you just drove the nail through the board. Right. And what I mean by that is the effort and the engagement that the purposeful building blocks of really relating are not active in the, in the intent. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (45:49) Yeah. Victoria (45:50) Nah, I mean... Well, and I do, and it's not to say that people haven't out there, haven't made like genuine long lasting connections and relationships through apps and things like that. Like I have plenty of clients and know plenty of people personally who have like met on Facebook dating and like, you know, met and got married on Tinder. Yeah, no, it's, it's drastic difference. yeah. Chris (46:15) 100 % But what's the percentage, if I can jump, what's the percentage of people that, yeah. Victoria (46:30) And I mean, I could be wrong, but like most people, well, specifically like men are not getting on Grindr for like a long term, like sustaining relationship. Like it is to hook up with someone. It is, is, they're on that app specifically to hook up with someone to make it a click. And yes, okay, maybe it turns into someone that they repetitively hook up with and it doesn't. John-Nelson Pope (46:44) That's a transaction. Yeah. Victoria (46:59) just become a one night stand, but it becomes like a repetitive thing. But still, like, it's not like, ⁓ you know, I'm hooking up with this person and then in six months we're getting married and then in six more months we're like trying to have a baby. Chris (47:12) Yeah, but and here's the big question, Victoria, you are nailing it. I appreciate that because the big question that we're really trying to tackle today is does that meet what it is that you're really looking for on the surface? We research here shows it, you know, excitement and validation and novelty. These are some of the things that people are looking for and they get it. They get a lot of it in the short run, but then the long term patterns include the emotional letdown, the increased comparisons, the shame walks that we talked about, ⁓ the erosion of trust, because now how many times have you done this? You don't have the ability to be vulnerable. You know, I failed at vulnerability or it bit me in the ass and I don't want to do that again. Like, you you get what you're looking for, Victoria, but do you really, because of the drawbacks and the emotional load that it's there. Victoria (48:06) Like, so I think the key term, I think, is short term and long term. Like in the short term, yes, you're getting what you need. You know, you're getting your rocks off or whatever, and you're like making a quick connection and thirds of passion and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then long term, like you're saying, I think that's the word I would put with it is like long term, you're not getting like the sustainability and the like. mental health advocacy that you need for yourself. Chris (48:38) Yeah, well, and let's, you know, and let's think about it in simple ways. Let's, let's try to generate a little bit of an idea. Where are we at on time? Holy crap. We've to move. Let's try to generate a little bit of an idea on what people are trying to do. Are they trying to get, you know, body affirmation? Like I am an attractive person. Are they trying to get, I am a valuable person that I have something to offer and somebody, you know, has sex with me or, or dates me that quickly. And that, that proves that. Or are we trying to get, you know, a long-term partner? Are we trying to get our loneliness dealt with? Are we trying to get validation for our anxiety levels? Like what are we really trying to go for? And then you have to ask yourself those questions. Is this really providing for that? Or is it actually hindering those things? And I'm not giving an answer either way, but I'd love us to be grounded with that kind of a level when we're doing something like connecting as dramatically and closely as you do sexually. John-Nelson Pope (49:34) Yeah. a cat-o-thing and lest it sounds like we are, like we haven't experienced any of this before ourselves, ⁓ in your generation, ⁓ Chris, there was a great ⁓ song ⁓ by David Lee Roth that was, I'm Just a Gigolo. ⁓ And... Victoria (49:51) What's her? Chris (49:58) Just to giggle a little, okay, I do remember that, John-Nelson Pope (50:00) I'm just a gigolo and everywhere I go people know the part I'm playing. Paid for every dance, selling every romance. ⁓ what they say. There will come a day when youth will pass away. What will they say about me when the end comes? I know it was just a gigolo. Life goes on without me. And it's kind of... Chris (50:22) I remember that. John-Nelson Pope (50:23) Yeah, and Louis Prima did that as well in the 50s. And so there's this idea or ⁓ Casanova. There's this emptiness. We just have different ways of expressing it. We have social media. The problem is that in the past that was looked at as, and I'm getting more, I'm sorry, is looking as a negative ultimately for society. or they did it and they couched it in religious terms or whatever but also in social terms. I don't know if that's true today and I think that's what maybe Victoria, do you hear what I'm saying or am I? Victoria (51:09) Yeah, I think so. Sorry, my kid was kind of crying all over me. I think from what I heard, yes. John-Nelson Pope (51:15) Yeah, yeah. So I think more people are engaging in the gigolo lifestyle and they're coming up empty. Chris (51:25) Life goes on without. John-Nelson Pope (51:27) Life goes on without me. Chris (51:30) Yeah. Right. Yeah. And I want to get to practical questions for listeners and we have the shrink wrap up. So we need to get to a little bit. I don't want to miss the idea of, again, a little bit further on, you know, what emotional coping are you doing with these things? And it does have a lot to do with swinging communities and kink communities and You know, even maybe even online porn kind of enters into this as well, though we're talking about actual sex with people today. You know, the vulnerability trap. We just had an excellent show as well on 327 when we talked about that in depth. Where is the vulnerability in this? You know, what happens there? John-Nelson Pope (52:12) At least when you're having sex with somebody, you're having physical touch. But there's people, they call themselves incels. And again, this is Victoria's generation. They're incels and they're in their parents' basements and they're seeing porn and they're getting off on idealized visions of women that are AI generated. and having they think that and they're saying that's a relationship, you know, so so it's even worse that isolation. Chris (52:50) Yeah. It's terribly, it can be, it can be. ⁓ I like to think about where it gets skipped and where we miss out on that. I don't think it's just younger generations. I think it's all around John, be honest with you, because, know, we, we, we create exposure in dramatic ways. We create connection in dramatic ways. We, we, we almost kind of John-Nelson Pope (53:08) I do too. Chris (53:19) sort of simulate vulnerability in the sense of being naked, mean, you oftentimes and, you know, exposed. I mean, you can't get much more exposed. However, you're not really getting emotional safety there. You're not really getting the long-term validation that stability in a relationship creates. You know, I've worked with people that have multiple sex partners at the same time, and it just, I don't know, it moves around insofar as the emotional safety. John-Nelson Pope (53:23) Yeah. Chris (53:47) You know, because you're stripped away from that in a way, because if I'm interested in the other person, I go to them and then I come back to you and maybe a third tertiary person. And it's like, just skip long-term vulnerability or stability. John-Nelson Pope (53:57) Yeah, throuples. ⁓ And... Condruples. Yeah. Chris (54:05) That's a word? Quadruples? Victoria (54:06) you John-Nelson Pope (54:06) Yeah. Chris (54:09) Okay, we want to do a quick experiment with, and then we'll do the shrink wrap up. We're going to kind of play around with talking to you. You you listen to show towards the end, we want to get into the idea of practical questions that we're asking you. Sort of like we're, you know, in a session and we're, trying to get you to understand, you know, what we want you to think about. So today we're talking about what are you after? What are you really trying to go for? And I'll take the first practical question of, you know, John-Nelson Pope (54:28) you Chris (54:36) What are you hoping that this experience with another person, whether you're a man listening you or you're a female, what are you wanting this experience to give you emotionally? I want you to be aware of what emotionally you're looking for so that, and I've said it a few times during the show, but if you're listening and you're considering one of these type of experiences, you've got to be clear with yourself on what it is that you're emotionally going after. Victoria (54:58) Right. Chris (55:04) Are you emotionally going after excitement? Are you emotionally going after validation? You've heard us talk about different things. Can you, the listener, be aware of what you're emotionally looking for? John, you want to go with the next one? John-Nelson Pope (55:17) No, ⁓ I'm trying to pull up the second question. What is this? Do you want to do it? Chris (55:23) All right, Victoria. Victoria (55:25) It's, I mean, do want me to just give it to him or do you want me to take it? All right, the second one is how do I usually feel the next day? Chris (55:28) Yeah, and paraphrase it. John-Nelson Pope (55:29) You give it, yeah, or give me the third one. Okay. So that would be something that you might want to consider is that you consider that there would be this opportunity for you to plan out a little bit in terms of and anticipate is this a ramification? Is this something that is going to impact me? and attack this other person. And so, you start thinking in terms of, ⁓ I'm thinking that you would be able to ⁓ ⁓ say it's not just my emotions or my feelings but it's also this other person that I'm in a relationship with and that other person is not an object. This other person is a subject, a person, a real, not a thing. And so you enter into that. So once you start doing this and start anticipating ramifications, you might be able to say, will this go? ⁓ to something further or will this ultimately hurt this other person? Will this ultimately hurt me? ⁓ Chris (56:54) Okay, so I'll give you the third one. Again, this little section is you talking to the ⁓ listener. I'm talking directly to you when I say the third question, practical for you is, are you choosing ⁓ connection in an experience like this? Or are you choosing to avoid it? And that is a question I will ask you, pretending we're in a therapy session here, right? Like when you go into an experience like this, you may be choosing either avoiding relationship because if you're quick and then done and then go to the next one and then done, you're kind of potentially perpetuating loneliness and disconnection. Whereas if you go slow and you don't engage in this and you build other foundations such as rapport, such as ⁓ common experiences, common interests and passions, and then you have sex, are you choosing connection? So I just want you to think about, are you choosing connection or are you actually avoiding it when you engage in these experiences? Victoria, you want to try the last one? Victoria (58:03) But yeah, so the last one is, this align with who I want to become relationally? So I'm assuming like if that would mean like who you want to be in future relationships with other people. And I mean, yeah, I would usually kind of talk to a client about or talk to you about how like, you know, does this, in my sessions, we talk about morals and values, like does this line up with what I want in the future, like with what you want in the future? Like would future you look back and be like, yeah, I'm super proud of this thing or yeah, maybe I wish I would have done some things a little bit differently. Chris (58:45) Perfect, okay. We'll practice this again. This is a new idea that I'm throwing at John and Victoria. We'll see how Casey does. the practical questions for you, what's that? of course she was. She does great with everything. But the practical questions for listeners is us literally speaking through this platform to you to get you to think, to really get you to engage in with us as though you're. Victoria (58:46) Short and sweet. ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (58:49) Yeah. she'll do great. She'll do great. Victoria (59:00) Of you will, yeah. Chris (59:12) in this topic and figuring out like what it is that that we're guiding you to kind of go with and think about. So a couple of mentions ⁓ in the book, Re-understanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self. I've actually started to really begin thinking about how they correlate and there's chapter 29 on codependence. I've actually read this in sessions, you know, several times and man, I don't know how you have one night stands, John, without having elements of codependence. Right. Which is John-Nelson Pope (59:18) Yeah. no, you're right. Chris (59:41) If you're okay, then I'm okay. If you're not okay, then I'm not okay. So I'm trying to make you okay so that I'll be okay is the nature of co-dependence. And when you're engaging in a one night stand, I mean, you got one time shot, man. You better perform girl. Boy, you better get it right and perform. John-Nelson Pope (59:56) or guy or guy. Victoria (59:58) Yeah. Chris (1:00:01) And it just breeds. Yeah. A hundred percent terrifying for men, John. Women can fake it. We can't really fake it. So it's, it's, it breeds codependent. John-Nelson Pope (1:00:01) Yeah, you better make sure the equipment works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we don't have that, the baculum, the bone that, ⁓ in other words, we don't have a bone in our penis. It's all emotional with us in certain level. yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, it doesn't have bones, yeah. So that's vulnerability in it. Chris (1:00:28) Never thought of it that way, but yeah, there's no, there's literally no bones there. Okay. And it doesn't work very well if you don't have the emotion. ⁓ It's very vulnerable. Victoria (1:00:30) Yeah. Chris (1:00:40) You're going out on a limb. That's absolutely true. You know, I want to highlight this very much too, because it fits so perfectly in what it is that behaviorally I feel like goes on a lot of times. So in re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse, John-Nelson Pope (1:00:41) We like to talk ourself out of that, yeah. Chris (1:00:56) That's the second book that I wrote chapter 25. The title is not needing someone can turn into not wanting someone. And that's a line that came up in a therapy session as all the chapters are. Think about that. If I don't need you and I'll just swipe onto the next one, John or whatever, and I don't stick around with any consistency, then I'm actually going to find out not wanting somebody. But if I... conversely with that fall into like, really have connected with you, you provide needs for me and I provide needs for you. And we have a mutual understanding and a mutual process with that. The man, really did, the desire goes up. You enjoy or a good example of that, what, 157 years later, you still have desire? Victoria (1:01:39) Good John-Nelson Pope (1:01:42) Yeah, that's right. But she gets younger looking. I don't. So that's a, here you go. Chris (1:01:48) Fair. Does that desire go down or does that longing sustain? Like I think people need to understand that. John-Nelson Pope (1:01:54) That sustains it. Yeah, for me it is sustained. ⁓ It is intensified. ⁓ I don't have the flush of... of oxytocin going, flowing through me as much, I guess, but the warmth, the strength of marriage for me is reinforced. And the older we get, think our love grows. ⁓ And it's not perfect, obviously, but she hasn't, we're still together and we're learning. So, yeah. Chris (1:02:33) Yeah, I admire that, John, and I value that. And I mean that to be a compliment in what you've been able to create together. Right? John-Nelson Pope (1:02:38) So thank you. Thank you. Victoria (1:02:40) 100%. John-Nelson Pope (1:02:40) Yeah. Victoria (1:02:40) Go John. Chris (1:02:43) All right, Neil, we are going to do the wrap up. So this is at the end of the show, we do a shrink wrap up is what we call it. It's fun little game where we kind of wrap up the course of the conversation, what stuck out to us, what we wanted to have as a bit of a takeaway, and then whomever kind of presents that in a way that makes best sense or whatever, they get the win for the week. And ⁓ Neil, I saw a spreadsheet, what's going on with that? How are we doing this? Neil (1:03:12) just going to track it and then by the end of the end of the year I'll run a pivot table to see who actually has the most wins. Chris (1:03:19) Victoria, John loves the competition, can you tell? John-Nelson Pope (1:03:21) No, I hate the competition. I am truly a middle child. Victoria (1:03:22) I love it. Yeah, can I go first? Chris (1:03:27) I'm a middle child too, what the heck? Victoria (1:03:30) I am an eldest and I'm an eldest daughter. I'm like a double whammy. John-Nelson Pope (1:03:31) Yeah, but... Chris (1:03:34) Ugh. We're going to knock it down, Victoria. Go ahead. You go first. Victoria (1:03:40) Okay, so from today I would say that don't let fear of making like a real connection keep you from like putting yourself out there to make the connection. Like don't let loneliness be what drives you because ultimately these one night stands and these quick connections are what continually drive the loneliness. So if you can get out of that cycle and get out of that habit then I think you put yourself in a place to mentally be prepared for a long-standing, long-term emotional relationship. Chris (1:04:17) Fair, all right. I'll go first, I love that, Victoria. I think that's honestly pretty well said. You know, I'm not gonna come into a moral decision and tell you it's right to do it or it's wrong to do it. I don't do that in therapy. My guide is to be able to tell you what seems to be healthy and unhealthy as best as we kind of understand what's going on. And so I really want you to be able to be consistent, right? Be consistent with what it is that you're really searching for, what it is that you're really wanting. Victoria (1:04:24) Thanks. Chris (1:04:46) and use some of these questions and these thought provoking moments that we've hopefully created a little bit to help you to be consistent, to understand what it is that you're really wanting and does this activity, this engagement, this relationship provide that for you? Because it very well might, if you look at it on a deeper level, actually work against what it is that you want as opposed to longer term stability, which is harder to find, but may have more value long term rather than short term. Just want you to be thought. John-Nelson Pope (1:05:17) I would thank you Chris and Victoria and I'm thinking in terms of since I was the geek and the nerd that read the article that we had is that even though men and women due to the chromosomes due to from very birth from conception are different and the brains are different and male's brains are bathed in testosterone, but it also has estrogen in it. Also, females is bathed in estrogen and lesser to an extent testosterone. The fact is, is that we are more than just biological. ⁓ entities. We are entities that are social. We are entities that are spiritual. We're entities and whether we're put ⁓ a patina of morality in this or not, all of us are designed for relationship. And I think that is what we have to really focus on is that the The one thing that I come down on is one night stands do not allow one to have the greatest gift that is given to us as human beings and what truly makes us humans is our ability to relate to one another. And that's why I think swiping right and swiping left is not good overall for people's mental health. Chris (1:06:59) Okay, Neil, I'd be curious what you come up with. I wanna let the team know though, before you do, that Casey has gotten back to us. She has said that she is home, they are resting and everything is okay. So we're good, I'm glad to hear that Casey. Yeah, what you got Neil? Victoria (1:07:01) Thank you. Go, Neil (1:07:18) ⁓ you guys are actually still. I like how we're putting some stakes in this. Now you guys are actually trying harder, and you guys are putting more stuff into this. This is going to be an interesting year this year. ⁓ Honestly, the three of you guys did a really, really good job. I have to keep my bias out of this too. So I want to make sure that I think about what you guys said and bias about what was said. ⁓ I think honestly, I liked Chris's today. ⁓ John came from the moral part and I kind of agreed with him in that part. But I think what Chris said is really stands out. Victor, yours was great. actually appreciate all you guys made it really hard today, but Chris, I'm gonna give it to you today. Chris (1:07:58) Wow, I'm actually surprised. I'm actually surprised. John, I was thinking you nailed it, to be honest with you. I love winning, but dude, man, you crushed it. Victoria (1:07:58) You know that's not how you drink from a water bottle. John-Nelson Pope (1:08:04) Well. Now, well, you did too, I think. Victoria (1:08:08) John's about made me cry over there. His was like, I said. Chris (1:08:11) I know! was, was, it was wild. That was good stuff. All right, listen, we are, ⁓ we are going to sign off here, I think, and get moving on, but we're glad you're tracking with us. We really appreciate the listeners. We will want to, want to give you some thought provoking stuff that hopefully is helpful and entertain you a little bit along as we go. So, we have entered into 2026. Let's see where it takes us. The human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together. Take care, stay well. John-Nelson Pope (1:08:12) ⁓ Yeah, well. Victoria (1:08:36) Lord. John-Nelson Pope (1:08:38) Okay, take care, thank you, bye bye. Chris (1:08:42) See you next week.