In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we explore the powerful connection between dogs and human grief, and how animals often sense emotions long before words are spoken. Through Kyle’s personal story of losing his father, the conversation examines how dogs respond to sadness, stress, and emotional pain through quiet presence, comfort, and companionship. We also discuss the role of service dogs in mental health support, the difference between emotional support animals and trained service dogs, and why healing during grief is often less about fixing pain and more about feeling supported and grounded. This episode offers insight into emotional healing, human-animal connection, grief support, and the mental health lessons dogs can teach us about presence, comfort, and resilience.
Tune in to see Dogs and Human Grief Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Have you ever felt like a pet understood your emotions without words?
- How do animals respond to human grief and distress?
- What role can animals play in emotional healing and mental health?
Links referenced during the show:
Pick of the Litter: Documentary Kasie mentioned on the show
https://www.guidedogs.com/about-guide-dogs-for-the-blind/media/pick-of-the-litter
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12672376
https://sackett.net/Inside-of-a-Dog.pdf
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self
Chapter 1.22 – Grief…
Grief requires space and presence, not immediate resolution.
Chapter 1.13 – Expressed emotion is positive and fresh.
Emotional expression is supported when individuals feel safe and accepted.
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse
Chapter 10 – A strong relationship is focused on sharing experiences…
Connection is built through shared presence, not just communication.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #356 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Alright, hello and good evening, good morning, good afternoon whenever you might be catching this episode of Through a Therapist's Eyes. This is episode 356. I've got a little bit of an intro that I want to do for this show because, I mean, it's almost like the Through a Therapist's Eyes tribe has just been tuned into grief and loss. And there are reasons for that, so let me spell those things out. But this is episode 356. Dogs and human grief. They're tuned in. So that's one of the titles we have. I like the other one. I want to read it instead. Dogs and human grief, how they sense emotions and support healing. And there's some reasons why we have been kind of caught on to the grief issue lately. And there is a little bit of a story to the genesis of this show that I want to kind of do a quick intro with. ⁓ But before I get to that, let me do my normal kind of intro stuff to tell you this is where you get insights from a panel of therapists. We have usually Victoria Pendergrass who is not going to be with us tonight. think she ran into some traffic, some stuff. don't know. Casey Morgan, who is going to be with us soon, but she, what did she say? She's doing a basketball game or something like that, but we have alive in the person, Mr. John Pope. How are you, sir? John-Nelson Pope (01:20) You're outstanding. Thank you. Chris (01:22) And Casey's gonna join us in a little bit. But this is where you get insights in your car or home, knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. ⁓ I got these books out, they're cool, through a therapist's eyes, you'd never believe their name. Be starting with that. One about your own emotions and understanding yourself, the other about marriage, check them out. ⁓ This is on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, all that kind of stuff. We have a brand new, welcome to the, picnic party Tanya Picconee, Tanya Picconee and she is a new subscriber so hello and welcome to you Miss Tanya. Alright and what else do I want to say? John how many stars do they give us? John-Nelson Pope (02:07) Give us five stars. And you give us five stars because it helps us rise to the top and that all the good things are there for a five star and we'll be promoted in other platforms. I think that's important too. Chris (02:26) It is important, listen, we want to provide you information, blow up stereotypes and myths about mental health and substance abuse. And we want to give you, you know, some good information about what really works because look, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. So through a therapist eyes contact, through a therapist eyes good way to reach us. This is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. So please do your job, do your part. I'm calling you out to find a little bit more of the Tarnies out there to sign up on YouTube Live, sign up on the website. Please help us grow. Please, please help us grow. So what is the story with this show, John? We've just had a lot of things and I kind of want to give a little introduction because... John-Nelson Pope (03:15) Yeah. Chris (03:16) You know, we've, we've had definitely a lot of grief and loss. It seems like it's just all freaking around me, man. We did the show, you know, the day after I buried my dog, sweet Sadie. ⁓ Yeah. You weren't able to join us because you were dealing with your dad's funeral where you actually delivered the whole eulogy. ⁓ We have my physical trainer who had his dad died and he literally died in his arms. ⁓ Super powerful sad. mean, he was delivering CPR on his own dad. John-Nelson Pope (03:26) I remember that. Chris (03:47) can't imagine that. Ugh. Yeah, John. I just... Can you imagine? John-Nelson Pope (03:47) my god. you see, my dad was 99 plus and he was just a few months short of 100. And how I processed that is very differently than how he, your trainer, had to process the grief of his dad. Chris (03:54) Yeah. Well, I don't know if he processed it when he was dealing with that. He was just dealing with it because he only had to found him in a cardiac event and had to give, you know, give CPR. So it's just been all around us and we will get off the grief issue, but on our show, man, we really do talk about what's real, what we're dealing with with our office. Usually now we're talking about what we're dealing with with ourselves, you know? And so I was, I was doing a show. We were doing the month in review last week, as you guys know, if you're listening to every show. John-Nelson Pope (04:12) You're a blues. Yeah. Meow. Chris (04:38) And, you know, on the month in review, we do a wrap up, right? Of all the shows that we do for the month. And Kyle, the aforementioned Kyle was sharing very courageously on the month in review about his experience at the funeral. And we do a rabbit hole. And that just is a fun way of kind of talking about, you know, a mental health topic of some sort. And, ⁓ you know, we, it's some sort of, you know, Adam started it just literally going down the rabbit hole, right? So we're doing that little segment on the month in review and Kyle comes on and he goes down the rabbit hole, but he goes down the rabbit hole of John talking about his doll, talking about his cat. And he got interested in how, you know, they tune into what we're experiencing. And I was just listening to him and I was like, look, this is a powerful rabbit hole. This isn't even really a rabbit hole for the show. This is. Kasie (05:24) next Chris (05:33) This is something bigger and I just decided right then and there that we're going to do a whole show on this because I immediately thought of you, John, with, you know, Bob the dog, right? And your deep expert knowledge, I would say. And I mean that that way, your deep expert. Well, your lived experience, but you also have clinical experience and I believe you could train the dog. So I don't want you to back away from that. I'm going to say it again. Your deep expert knowledge on service animals, you know, emotional support. John-Nelson Pope (05:46) lived experience. Yeah. ⁓ Okay. Chris (06:01) animals, the difference and all of those. So we're going to lean heavily on John today and talk about another element. But there's another element of why I did this show this way. Thank you. Sorry and apologize for a long intro. know, we a while ago I had a person I'll call. I'll call you Mr. K. Shout out to you. He lives close to me. And I was asked a question once years ago. You know, there was like John-Nelson Pope (06:05) Okay. Chris (06:31) Is it, is it when your pet dies, is that kind of like a grieving process? Right. And I'm like, ⁓ yeah, like definitely. So it's interesting to think about whether you're losing an animal, or, or you've lost a life and your, your animal is, is sensing you and is with you. John-Nelson Pope (06:41) Yeah, it is. Chris (06:57) There's a lot of really fascinating psychological things about that. So I just decided we need to do a whole show about it. That's the origination story of this particular episode. So we got Casey that joined us. How are you, Mr. Casey? Kasie (07:13) I am well. Thank you so much for being patient on me. Had a band concert for my son. It went really well. They ended with the Wipe Stripes song, Seven Nations Army. So that was kind of cool. It was awesome. Chris (07:18) Yay! And how did the band concert go? John-Nelson Pope (07:26) UGH! that brass but yeah that wow Chris (07:33) I don't know the song, John. You wanna sing it? Kasie (07:35) It goes dun dun dun dun dun. Chris (07:38) ⁓ heck yeah. I know that from sports, baby. ⁓ We can all sing that, but I'm depressed because my Lakers are losing. My penguins have lost, so we can't talk about sports. No, we don't. don't need to do that. So let's, let's launch into this a little bit and see where we get into. ⁓ the, questions we want you to think about through the show is have you ever felt like a pet understood your emotions without words? I think about the power of that. John-Nelson Pope (07:44) That's right. Chris (08:07) Have you ever felt like a pet? And it's almost like a belittling term. mean, lovingly, our cats and dogs and mice and rats and pigs and all your pets, they don't take it personally, but they're a member of our family. Have you ever felt like they understood your emotions without words? Two, how do animals respond to human grief and distress? And then three, what role can animals play in emotional healing? Kasie (08:22) Mm-hmm. Chris (08:35) and mental health. And if you don't think they have a role in emotional healing or mental health, you are a soulless non-pet owner. Kasie (08:43) Ha! John-Nelson Pope (08:43) Yeah, it's not just pets, it's horses. Those are, I mean, it's just, they're, I wouldn't say that they operate anywhere near on the conscious level that we have, level of consciousness, but they are conscious. And they are, have sentience, Chris (09:08) and fiends. John-Nelson Pope (09:13) So anyway, think we can discuss this. Chris (09:19) Yeah. Yeah. They're heavily involved in the whole process. And I mean, it's near and dear to my heart, Casey, I think I could even play a sweet country roads about sweetie grace and be okay at this point. We've gotten through the grief and John, how are you doing real quick with, with just the loss of your dad and that type of thing. If I could check in with you, man. John-Nelson Pope (09:29) Yeah. Kasie (09:29) yeah, for sure. No doubt. John-Nelson Pope (09:40) I miss the conversations, the theological discussions, his passions. I miss his company. And even when it became very difficult, I missed his presence. And that's a hole. ⁓ And we're doing the best we can because it's a hole, a ⁓ void that can't really be filled. And, ⁓ but there's also an effort on our parts to be able to, as a family to support each other. And we have done that, I think. So it's been a, it's been a mixed, the grief and sadness, but there's also the celebration of, of a life well lived, 99 years, married 75. And Kasie (10:33) Hmm. John-Nelson Pope (10:37) I can't imagine what it's like for mom, but they were married so long and she was barely 19 when she married him. This is good. Chris (10:54) Yeah, it's crazy. It's such a life journey, isn't Yeah. No, thank you for sharing. And I wanted to tune into that because, know, we've all shared pretty openly on this show. Kyle was pretty wide open with his story with his dad and some of the things that he was talking about. And John, it was really similar to yours. And, you know, and I'm not going to say that losing ⁓ a sweet Sadie Grace doesn't compare because it does compare. You know, you would think John-Nelson Pope (10:57) Yeah. Chris (11:22) What are you talking about, Chris? dude lost his 99 year old dad, other dude lost his dad, the other dude lost his dad in his arms while he was doing CPR. What are you talking about a dog? Well, you know what the thing is, is it's funny, the emotions that you feel when you're feeling them. You know, this is something I've learned guys over the course of my career that, you know, over somebody's life cycle, isn't it true? Do you agree or disagree? I'm pretty sure you'll agree that You know, the feelings that you experience are really the same, right? Like you have different cognition at different experiences in your life and at different stages. know, Casey, when you were 10 years old and had a little crush on some boy or a teenager or your first love and you get heartbroken, I don't think that was a whole lot of different emotions that I had when I was grieving a 30 year marriage. I mean, know, the cortisol, the adrenaline, the chemicals, the hormones, all the things that you feel, ⁓ you know, my feelings of grief and loss with my dog were really similar to what people experience losing a full blown dad, right? Let's say you with the life cycle of emotion. Kasie (12:35) Yeah. Well, I think it's an important distinction to make that it belongs to the individual. There isn't rules. There aren't any rules around this stuff. Just like we talked about in one of our previous shows concerning grief, there isn't a timeline. There's also not rules for how much grief a person should feel, is made to feel, needs to feel, and at what age that grief can exist because It really is an individualized experience that you have with, you know, whether it be an animal or person, the loss of a job, the loss of a home. You know, I've had people who've had immense amount of grief over natural disasters and destruction to their homes and, you know, things like that. so I think it just, yeah, loss of a job. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (13:28) Well, it's a good job. Yeah. Kasie (13:32) It's very individualized experience. It's kind of how we think about trauma in a way, right? It belongs to the individual. So who are we to say how it is a hierarchical order as opposed to humans to animals and stuff. John-Nelson Pope (13:48) Now, I'm wondering too, is that there's a sense that grief can be prolonged or protracted or it can be complicated and that can cause some issues, obviously. And so there's where you would need ⁓ intervention in terms ⁓ of psychotherapy, for example, would be good in dealing with that. we're talking and getting that support from clergy, which would be very essential, think. it's not, ⁓ people's grief can be very profound to the very bottom of their soul. And it's a rawness and it's an emptiness or a void that is there. Because that person or that animal filled up was a very much a big part of that individual's life. and it causes disruption in one's everyday life. ⁓ My mother, for example, she goes and ⁓ she'll just see one thing of dad's. ⁓ She'll see one of his Bibles or something of this sort, and she just starts to cry. That gave her comfort seeing him Chris (15:00) Yeah. Right? It's almost involuntary, it? John-Nelson Pope (15:12) do his activities and now she doesn't see those anymore. ⁓ Chris (15:17) Yeah. Yeah. You know, this stuff really is real. And Casey, I appreciate your words and descriptions because I was listening to you and I was reminded ⁓ of an event as a young man where I was a young clinician as well. And I got so excited at becoming an expectant father. know, my wife was pregnant and You know, you guys know my personality, man. I'm out there shilling everybody. like, ⁓ this is going to happen. I'm all bubbly and googly and just googly. I like, I'm crazy. I'm stupid with excitement and giggly about becoming a dad. And then we had a miscarriage. Right. Crushed me. And I was just. dealing with that and kind of processing and, you know, grieving, obviously, and, and, and somebody at the Cameron Valley, where I got my start in managed care therapy, they looked at me and, and she said, you know, Chris, people do end up in therapy sometimes for things like this. And John, that's what you just said. I was like, wow, wait a minute. I didn't know that. I didn't think that people would do therapy for this. You know, I was young and green. John-Nelson Pope (16:27) Yeah. Chris (16:34) Call me young and dumb. But John, you're absolutely correct, man. This stuff hits people and it is more than a reason for an entry into a therapy experience. John-Nelson Pope (16:42) This could be a Chris, this could also be a different topic entirely, but in terms of miscarriages is that somebody will say something meaning well, well, you can always have another. And as though that child, that unborn child with all those hopes and dreams and all those expectations and all that that's kind of placed in that, that has been destroyed. And to say that to someone is devastating. Chris (17:15) tough. Two things. First of all, I will say very dominantly and clearly back to you if you were to say that to me, John, I disagree and I fully expect and plan on meeting my daughter. I sense that she's a daughter when I die in heaven. That's I believe that's gonna happen. I feel it in my in my heart. I'm not gonna deck you. John-Nelson Pope (17:28) Yeah, I thought you were going to deck me or something. But somebody that's callous. Chris (17:37) It's it's it's unaware. think people are naive, John. They don't know what to say. And I'm going to tell you that, as Casey said, there's no rules. You're not you're not doing anything wrong. You've got to kind of be aware and and understand that people are grieving and, you know, be sensitive. John-Nelson Pope (17:50) When I was a hospital chaplain, just a really short thing here, ⁓ there was a woman. Chris (17:57) And then I promise we're going to talk about dogs that are alive that helps humans with grief. John-Nelson Pope (18:01) Yeah, it's still, there was a still birth. ⁓ She, the baby stopped moving and the baby had stopped moving for about a week and the baby was basically ⁓ induced probably around 20, 25 weeks. And, and so the baby came out, but there was skin slip. There was, it was pretty gross. And, and She asked me to baptize the baby because I was a chaplain at the time. And ⁓ I held the baby and baptized it in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. And I said, your son or daughter ⁓ is with God in heaven. And of course, I would have believed that it would have been immediately at death, but that really gave her an anchor, purchase, peace. Yeah. And we dismiss Chris (18:59) Givers Peace. John-Nelson Pope (19:05) ritual. That's why you were with ⁓ Sadie Grace or Gracie Sadie, or you were saying, where are going to bury or what are we going to do? That was important. Chris (19:19) man, very. John-Nelson Pope (19:20) very much in your beginning of your healing. Chris (19:26) Yeah, it's powerful stuff going on there and to transition us into like, know, it's funny, the second thing I was going to say to you in response a little bit ago, John, when people say things, I'm going to say a little insensitive or callous. Again, I don't think people are trying to be, I don't want people to be afraid to talk to people that are grieving. Say, say whatever you think is going to be helpful. Don't, don't shy away because the worst thing is that a grieving person is left alone to do that alone. We don't want that. Right. So, so, but what's funny, John is like dogs don't do that. ⁓ They don't talk. They, they, John-Nelson Pope (20:00) Dogs don't do that. They don't talk. Maybe that's people when they're grieving, maybe that's what all they need is someone to be there with them. Chris (20:12) It's the big takeaway, John. It's the big takeaway of the show. The landing spot that we're landing on at the end is where we just got to. Casey, when we're rationalizing or talking or supporting, know, isn't it, isn't it something that we can learn from our animals that just want to be with, right? Be with us in that space and time. John-Nelson Pope (20:14) Yeah. Kasie (20:37) Yeah, absolutely. mean, I think it comes with a kind of shared co-regulation. You know, the animals get impeded and or whatever, it's just sitting there with you, but it's helping you regulate your own nervous system in the moment because, know, this is something that every day greets you, you know, and regardless of how you are, who you are, where you've been, what you've done, it's gonna greet you, you know? And yeah, it just feels like without condition. And I think one important lesson that you're kind of touching on, which we may get onto later on in the show, is that oftentimes as human beings, we have this innate need to fix things, right? Like I wanna fix it, I wanna fix it. And sometimes what we need is someone to just feel it. Chris (21:10) Unconditional, Kasie (21:34) you know, instead of fixing it. And our dogs or cats, probably more so dogs than cats. mean, I'm a dog, but I mean, cats are finicky, but they're still, I think they're still emotionally attuned sometimes too, but dogs especially, they, I mean, they have expressions. They are very attuned with the emotional experience of their human. And I think that they are there to just provide a sense of comfort. John-Nelson Pope (21:34) Yeah. Chris (21:41) No, right? Kasie (22:03) You know, and it can really be regulating to sit with your dog. You can say anything you want to to your dog. You can tell it anything. It's not going to repeat it. You know, it might my dog, I think he has a really bad side eye. He's a beagle, a part beagle, part Jack Russell, a Jack Beagle, I guess you would say. no, like he literally turns his head to the side and then looks at me like that sometimes. John-Nelson Pope (22:24) So he jumps up like this. Chris (22:32) Ha ha ha ha ha ha Kasie (22:35) And my husband often tells me, see, he's even tired of your bullshit. I'm like, OK. John-Nelson Pope (22:38) Okay. Chris (22:42) Even the dogs wanting you to shut up, That's funny. So again, in the origin of this story, Kyle was talking about his dog and he was making observations. if you're new to through a therapist, Kyle is a, you he's not a clinician. the panel is we're all clinicians, as we said, but he was just, he's an astute observer and he cares about mental health. And he observed his dog and that's what made him think about, let's go down the rabbit hole with. Kasie (22:46) Yeah Chris (23:11) my dog because he noticed that his dog was totally staying close to him. was like watching him and being sort of careful in a loving way, in a loving way, right? Checking in physically. You know, I saw a unrelated to anything, Kyle, but I saw on YouTube, was just, I don't know, jumping around on things and they were talking about Kasie (23:15) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris (23:40) the dog sleeping position, which is wild, wild stuff in the primal way that they have sleeping behavior, whether they're showing their belly, everybody's aware of that vulnerability, but their foot of the bed, they're watching the entry point, the snuggling close. I there's specific dog positions and they all mean something. It's pretty wild. Now I don't like sleeping with dogs, but it dress. I have like a rule in my house like no dogs I don't wanna but there's so much, Casey you mentioned the clinical word attunement. You know there attunement. Kasie (24:14) Yeah, I think too, if you've ever seen someone that has a dog prior to becoming pregnant and then becomes pregnant, it's really cool to see the way the dog will ⁓ bond with the mom even when the baby is in utero. And then outside of gestation when the baby is born, the dog has generally a good akinment to the child that's born. It's really crazy. You should do a lot of research on that. It's really interesting. John-Nelson Pope (24:50) Well, there's question that I think where dogs were, they were the first domesticated animals and they were basically, they domesticated us, I guess, partially. We kind of co-evolved on a certain level and they mirror our faces, they mirror our, there's no other ⁓ certainly not cats. I love my cat, but my cat is not my dog. But my dog can read me and read my face and mirror what's going on. So that's very, I think, important ⁓ to be able to have that. ⁓ I think one of the other aspects of dogs is that, or let's go to horses, for example. Horses help Kasie (25:20) ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (25:46) people, especially if they're anxious. And horses are prey animals. And I imagine that people who are highly anxious might also feel like they're preyed upon in life. And horses, in their very, their majesty and in their, but yet they're also anxious, can provide a mirror to the person that is getting help ⁓ with that anxiety and treating that. ⁓ Equine therapy is very important, I think. Chris (26:24) It is. And you know what's interesting, John, I just want to jump in and suggest this is off the cuff, just off my brain. was not an expert in this and I'm not a researcher. I kind of wanted to research it because we've already touched on like, I don't know that cats do it as much as dogs. I really don't. But, you know, if you think of the emotionally attunement, they're not just reacting to stuff. You know, they really are in attune with what we've been talking about. And John, mean, we... OK, so... You said dogs were probably the first domesticated animals. That's probably true, but horses were pretty domesticated way early on also. Right? So. John-Nelson Pope (27:02) Well, they were, yeah, about the same time as cats. ⁓ Chris (27:05) I mean, yeah, so they really related a lot to humans and our species eons ago sort of blended together. We didn't blend together with rhinoceros or tigers or birds, right? We really blended deeply with dogs and we blended deeply with horses also. And I think those are the two most human other species in action. Do you think that's, do you think that's true? John-Nelson Pope (27:31) I do think that. I think we can have relationships with our cattle and also with goats and sheep, it's more...and pigs, they're very intelligent, but ⁓ we have more of that ⁓ eye-thou relationship or eye-eye relationship with ⁓ dogs as opposed to they're not its, they're not things. They are Chris (27:46) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (28:02) Beings, basically. Not human beings, but doggy beings. ⁓ Chris (28:04) Right. Yeah. Well, they are beings. Yeah. To move our conversation on a little bit. ⁓ These animals are highly sensitive to all of the things that we're talking about, know, facial expressions, body language. ⁓ We're going to talk a little bit. John's going to share because he's the sort of resident expert, in my opinion, on service animals and therapy dogs. And there is a difference between emotional support animals and service dogs and animals. And so their tone of voice, all of the things. mean, they experience way more than just energy shifts. They respond to chemicals in your body, y'all. I mean, they're powerfully tuned in, probably in a lot of ways, even more than humans are. Because as you're talking about, right, like, know, John, they're really dialed in. And I'm thinking of an example of my buddy Joe and, ⁓ Breeds do have differences. For instance, German shepherds. He's got a German shepherd, man. They are really protective and they tune into their owner. And if you mess with their owner, they're going to lose their crap on you. So you got to be very careful because you know that that defensiveness and the pack mentality and the, all those things factor into what we're talking about, where your animals are attuned with you while you're grieving. Right. John-Nelson Pope (29:20) Mm-hmm. Well, my grandfather had ⁓ a canine that was in Vietnam. The dog was retired and the owner basically, he got to take the dog once he got out of service. And he said to Thor, his name was Thor, very appropriate for a German shepherd, and said, Chris (29:59) Awesome name. John-Nelson Pope (30:02) you take care of Dr. Buttermore and you listen to him. And I don't know if he picked that up in terms of understanding the words, but he got the intent and he was so fiercely protective of my grandfather that when my uncle came in, who was kind of a gruff guy, My uncle Doughton came in. was gird and got up and hackles got up and protected him and said, and then granddaddy said, Thor, relax or whatever. And Thor would sit down. But he was that in tune. Chris (30:53) And you know what's funny? They're not, I mean, that's a word, but oftentimes the word, like they don't understand the words. They understand the emotion. They're like children. Little five year olds, four year olds, they don't have the cognition. But I'm going to tell you what, a ⁓ six month year old baby understands the emotion of their mother, Casey. Right? I mean, there's not, in effect, sometimes words are inadequate. Kasie (31:20) Yeah, I agree. Chris (31:23) for the emotional intimacy that you can have without words. Kasie (31:29) Yeah, I definitely agree that, you know, younger children and animals can be attuned with the emotion of things. But I do think there is something to be said about words. And ⁓ the reason why I say that is not so much the word itself, but the tone and diction and inflection that you use in your voice make a difference as well as other sounds. ⁓ For example, my dog that lives inside Captain. He, ⁓ if my husband and I both put down our ⁓ electric like feet on the reclining parts of our couch, he automatically assumes that we're going to bed and he will go and hide under the table to avoid his crate. If he hears me say, are you ready to go to bed to my husband? He will go and get under the table because he doesn't want to go get in his crate, you know? And so there's things like that that I think when you do something or say something that feels like it's a routine part or with the same diction and flexion that you do with other words. They are very receptive and responsive to that. Same thing with loud voices. My dog is a rescue and he was severely abused as a small puppy. And now, like if there is a noise that sounds like it's a decibel higher than it's supposed to be. He gets anxiety. I mean, he's shaking. He's basically having a mini panic episode, you know, and so he's got a good therapist mama, but John-Nelson Pope (33:00) It's it works both ways, done this bi-directional. Yeah. Kasie (33:04) Yeah, it does. Chris (33:05) It does. It does. I got to join in and with the stories of dogs, because you guys are going to love this. This is absolutely hysterical. And I was shocked. my my I have two dogs. One has passed Sadie, we all know. And Fletcher is the other dog. Fletcher is a Shih Tzu. And he's a very, very anxious dog as well. And I mean, he picks up on stuff. Right. And so ⁓ Sadie was the older dog and she had a hard time getting outside. She could go down the stairs anymore. I mean, it was so cute. She, have a, we out back, have a deck, right? And you know, going down the deck is some pretty steep stairs and it got to where she, you know, she could go down them, but she couldn't, her hind legs, she could pop her butt up to get, to get up the stairs. So she would put her head underneath the, the step above her to brace her to pull her hind quarter up. And then each step she would do it that way. It was so cute to watch her work her, every worker imagine to get up the steps. John-Nelson Pope (33:59) Wow. Chris (34:05) But it got to where she couldn't do, you know, do that. And so she peed in the house a lot then, and, she peed on the deck incessantly. my gosh. And, ⁓ little did I know Fletcher was doing the same thing. Now I knew he was pooping on the deck because his poops are different, right? But check this out. Sadie dies. Sadie's no longer with us. And I realize that Fletcher will not go down the steps on the deck. Instead, Fletcher would go up the steps to the bonus room, take a dump up there, come down the steps back into the house where he lives his days. He learned in tune with Sadie that those steps were dangerous, that he couldn't do those steps. Tell me that isn't a toonment. They didn't have conversation about this. You know, but I had to work with Fletcher and I carried him and I put him in the middle of the steps. I only had like four days he's been with his mother since. John-Nelson Pope (34:55) Yeah. Chris (35:03) coming back. Yay, next week. And I'll work with him more to help his anxiety case he so that he can get his steps confidence back. Right? Isn't that amazing? Kasie (35:13) Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's pretty amazing how that works and I think it works that way emotionally as well, you know when There is something off within the owner of a pet whether it's a high emotion or a low emotion high meaning like anxiety lower meaning more like depression ⁓ sadness grief things like that, ⁓ our pets will notice that about us our natural rhythms are different our pheromones can change because of the and balance within our body. And so they smell it out, you know, in all honesty. The same way that service animals are trained to pick up on things like disease and such, you know, different types of disorders, epilepsy, things like that. It's all about the cadence and rhythms and pheromones that are being emitted from the body. And so when you're sad and you're grieving, your hormones are releasing and what they're releasing and cortisol that gets built up in your system, your pets know. I mean, that's science. That's not just us shooting a line of bull here on a podcast. That's proven science. Chris (36:20) Right? John-Nelson Pope (36:21) Well, no, it's interesting that you say that. I'm thinking that we may have lost, maybe we're taught this, I'd not to pay attention, but even if we're unaware of our emotions or we're not in touch, ⁓ we are producing the pheromones, we're producing the odors that can be smelled that animals can smell, particularly dogs. can can and a horse horses can do this as well and know that. Chris (36:55) Are you suggesting, John, that we used to be able to do that and we've been taught out of doing that and so humans generally have lost the ability John-Nelson Pope (37:09) we've lost the connection. don't connect. we have the, yeah, that's what I'm suggesting. yeah. So that's why I think it's important to, you can say, somebody could say, well, you know, I've got this, my hair and my head just started raising up. Well, you're taking in something, you're smelling, paying attention, you're Chris (37:16) That blows my mind, Pay attention! John-Nelson Pope (37:39) processing pheromones and odors that you're not even aware of. so when you feel like your hair is all and you feel it's not some paranormal or supernatural thing, it's, it's biological, I think. Kasie (37:55) Yeah, try being a woman in certain parts of, yeah, I was gonna say like, try being a woman in a certain part of the month and walking in a room with a dog and see what happens. Chris (37:55) Casey, you're smelling pheromones, You're smelling pheromones, baby. John-Nelson Pope (38:06) Yeah. Chris (38:08) Yeah, but what about your husband Casey? I'm think I'm tripping out on the fact that humans used to have this ability maybe and now we're smelling pheromones. Kasie (38:09) Honest to goodness. John-Nelson Pope (38:17) Well, I think we may have that ability. just, it's not as developed, obviously, as... Chris (38:23) think we had it and probably lost it, John. Maybe you weren't suggesting that, but I'm suggesting that. I think humans have lost the attunement that we have from dogs. Look, let's do a little segment on, we can learn a lot from dogs. And I guess we should talk about cats and horses. So we're talking about animals, you know, but they help in grief. They absolutely help in grief. You know, we talked about the nonjudgmental, the unconditional positive regard. John-Nelson Pope (38:28) haha Kasie (38:29) Yeah. Chris (38:52) the consistent companionship, the physical comfort that they try to offer you, the structure, and Casey was talking about the routines. These are real things in the moment that animals are sitting with. They sit with you in so many amazing ways. They don't try to fix. Casey, you went to that earlier. They're not trying to fix the problem, man. And that's not just dudes, by the way. Women have the same kind of things. We humans, we... We want to come up with solutions. We want to, we want, we don't want you to feel bad. we'll, you know, John, maybe even make the quote unquote mistake to say something that's insensitive. you know, ⁓ we just be with, and we can learn that skill from how our dogs greet us. We can learn those skills at how they sit with us. We can learn how they're just not using words, but they're fully in tune with us. It's amazing. And I have a story about that book. What do you, the two of you, I have a story that involves you, John, about that. What do you, the two of you think? Kasie (39:53) Well, so, John-Nelson Pope (39:53) Okay, Kasie (39:53) ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (39:54) you go ahead, man. Kasie (39:55) go ahead. No, I was just going to say, I think it's important to pay attention to that ⁓ as you notice and observe the attunement that your animals have. It's important to notice the shift within yourself when you are with your selected animal, whether it's a dog, a cat, a horse, what have you. Chris (39:56) Well, go ahead, Casey. John-Nelson Pope (39:57) I'm sorry. Kasie (40:17) I even know people that are very bonded to their chickens and pigs and things like that as well. Because this is why when we talk about like resiliency and we talk about the settling of the nervous system It's really important that you have the development of a resource and a resource is something that you can use That even if you just think about it it immediately brings a sense of calmness and joy to your body in the present and Sometimes when I work with people who are grieving a loss or grieving something or you know even grieving their Chris (40:23) Mm-hmm. Kasie (40:53) I challenge them to think about like what it felt like to pet the animal, right? Like their fur was so soft, it was fluffy. I would say like I could rub my dog and like a whole clump of hair would come out because he sheds all the time. And you know, when we're reminiscing, it's important to capture those moments and stories that bring us such joy because what you can do is even if your pet passes away, right? Chris (41:23) Can you pause, Casey? Can you pause, Casey, with what you can do? Because I just want to share, I am so reliving. Sadie would sit on my arm, and she had such a core, muscle group in her core, and she would sit straight up, and I didn't have to take my hand. I'd just sit there and rub her little tummy, and it was so, she was sad, such a hard tummy. And then if I would stop, Kasie (41:23) What you can do is, huh? Yeah. Okay. Chris (41:49) should take your legs and should just do this. And I have to do it more. I just have to keep on doing it. So it's like, yeah, go on. But that's a perfect example of like I'm reliving and I'm literally doing in real time what it is that you're saying we can do. Kasie (42:01) Yeah. And what's so great about that is if you find yourself in another moment, unrelated of distress or discomfort, emotional discomfort, you can rely on that resource to go back in the brain and recapture thoughts and memories about what the resource is to be able to help settle your nervous system, even if it's nothing related to your animal at all. even if it's a different form of discomfort, like you lose your job and things like that, and you need to rely on something in the moment to be mindful about, to help recapture ⁓ essences of joy for your nervous system. It's a great way to do that, is to think about your resource and how that involved your pet. Chris (42:50) Now if you're on YouTube, you just saw me with my hat sitting here on my chest exactly like Sadie would be doing. And it did! It felt nice listening to you doing it, Casey. It's so lovely! She can still be with me is the point, even though she has... she has passed. Kasie (42:58) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (43:09) You were gonna share a story? Chris (43:11) Yes, yes I was that we can learn from our animals. Thank you, John, because it involves you. I think I've told you this story, we've reflected on it, but it was really obviously an indelible moment. know, John, I'm curious, Casey, you answer this after the story. Did he act like a human or did he act like a dog? All right, ready for this? Okay, so the setting is when... Kasie (43:31) Okay. Chris (43:36) I don't, you know, you weren't with us even yet, Casey, but Metrolinux went through a move. We had an office over in Belmont in the area. was a nice office. I actually had a window. It was fantastic. Anyway, the best office I ever had. ⁓ Anyway, I do digress because we were moving and I had a lot on me as the founder, Metrolinux. I I had the computers that I had to move. I had all kinds of contracts that I had set up. terribly anxious about the inadequacy of the new office. We had gotten kicked out of the office because a certain group decided that they didn't want us there because they bought the building and they wanted their people there. Just saying, it's true. And I was just stressed out. Also, I was going through a rough time with marriage that ultimately ended in divorce many years later after that. I remember John walked in my office and I was standing there and I kind of told him a couple of things, whatever. You know, my office was in boxes and I just, I just sat down, Casey. went, I went down to the floor and just like, you let me sit here for a minute. I'll talk to John and tell him kind of what's going on or whatever I had to tell him. don't know. And you know what he did? He just crumpled his whole body down, got onto his knees and hands and sat down next to me on on, on the ground with me. He sat there with me. You know? It was a really special moment because I knew exactly what he was doing. And I was like, there you go, Mr. Chappie. That's the chaplain in you right there, isn't it? And he's like, well, yeah, you know, just, yeah. And he listened to me for a little bit. It was ⁓ a really, it was a powerful moment because John was really not trying to fix nothing. No, he was not trying to use a lot of words. know, ⁓ he mirrored my behavior and sat down on the floor. ⁓ you know, he, really, he really tuned in and, just listened. And my question Casey is, was he acting like a human or was he acting like a dog? Kasie (45:37) He was acting like John Pope, but, which I would expect nothing less from him because John is a very wonderful human being. so, ⁓ but you're absolutely right. And what we do as humans is we will talk something to death. We really will. Like we will talk at problems. We will talk at, you know, people problems, all kinds of stuff until we're blue in the face because Part of our hope is to either fix and solve or prove ourselves correct. And that's human nature, is to try to fix and solve or prove ourselves correct. So we actually can learn a lot from animals in this regard that sometimes all it takes is just a willing spirit and someone to sit with us to help us through a situation. Now I will tell you I'm probably one of the world's worst at this just because I like to talk a whole lot. Chris (46:33) You and me both, girl. Kasie (46:35) Yeah, and when you go through counselor education, they make you do these recorded sessions, you know, and one of the skill sets they make you work on is silence and the implementation of silence and session. And I literally had to sit on my hands and bite my inner lip to not respond. So I didn't lose a lot of points on that observation. But, but I think there is something very powerful about just sitting with someone to just be Chris (46:44) Yeah! Kasie (47:05) present to just give proximity to the person to let you know that they're there and that's what animals do for us. They give us the proximity. You know, sometimes they invade our space and we're like get out of my face. But a lot of the time they really just want that proximity because even though you are their owner, they are so in love with you. They really are. They they honestly and genuinely love you. They know nobody but you really for the most part and they love you. And like I said earlier, they love you without reason. They love you without cause other than you feed them and stuff like that. But outside of that, they take you exactly as you are and where you are. And that's why I think sometimes people can struggle when it comes to the end of life for our pets. Chris (48:03) Yeah. Kasie (48:03) ⁓ because it is a grief process for us as well. And we struggle a lot during that process with guilt and things of that nature, you know, over how an animal lives and dies. Yes. John-Nelson Pope (48:14) I think. ⁓ I also think that perhaps is that sometimes when we're a loss of a beloved ⁓ companion, animal companion, a dog or a cat or, but is that we're also grieving other losses and we are given permission to grieve at that time for the animal and who is so even in death. the animal is still serving and is still loving and doing this unconditionally, even in death. And you alluded to that a little bit, Chris. I think you said, say he was teaching you, you were going through that. And I bet your heart was kind of slowing down a little bit while you were doing that. And, you know. Chris (49:05) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, there's just so much that we can learn that our animals are doing for us. So, John, let me swing it over to you. I want to do a little segment on just the service animals and emotional support animals. sort of, you a guy listening, you listening, just understand John is not speaking from a prepared sense. He didn't prepare this. I just want you to kind of free flow thought on, you know, what is a service animal? What is a therapy dog? Neil, if you could pop on the, you know what, I'm going to look it up while you're talking. I'm going to share the show that we did with Bob the dog, your wife's ⁓ service animal. And because you need to hear that one. If you're listening to the show, it's an old episode. I'm going to look it up here while you're talking, but just tell us whatever comes to your mind. Service animals, difference from emotional support animals, all the things. John-Nelson Pope (50:02) Okay. Right. Well, a service animal is a ⁓ broad category. And a service animal is any animal, ⁓ mostly dogs for the most part, but including horses and ⁓ even with other animals as well, ⁓ that are able to react and able to respond. and mirror your emotions or the persons' emotions and be able to free that and enable that person or encourage that person to let go and be able to respond and to process through issues such as grief or anxiety or depression. And so ⁓ many animals can be trained for that because They already have that innate ability to do that. They're hardwired genetically to be like that. When you get someone who is an assistance dog or let's say for people that have vision impairments or hearing impairments, those are specialty assistance dogs. They could be mobility assistance. They could be those type of animals. But they also, so they have specific training in areas where people need some real physical assistance or perhaps to deal with some trauma or emotional issues. ⁓ Horses, for example, equine assistance animals are very, important to be able to people that have dealt with a lot of trauma in their lives. And so they help with that. help But horses also, for example, can help with people that have motion and mobility issues. And so it helps people develop balance. So that horse would not just be a support animal, it would also be ⁓ an assistance animal. ⁓ Dogs, for example, ⁓ can be taught to help with people that are blind. people that are hard to have vision issues, people that have ⁓ seizure disorders like epilepsy, they can sense before the person who has is having the problem is even fully aware of it, can act and be able to move the person to safety or to bring the person and gently guide them down before they fall. ⁓ Mobility assistance, don't it? Yes. Kasie (53:18) Can I say something quickly? So not to interrupt you, John, but since you mentioned it, I just want to say that there is an insanely great documentary called Pick of the Litter, if anyone's interested in watching it. And it shows the process from breeding to birth of puppies to training to picking out what dogs will become ⁓ dogs for people who are blind. It is a great documentary to watch if you've never watched it, just to see the immense amount of training. John-Nelson Pope (53:55) Most dogs do not make it through that and they end up actually going to new homes for people for emotional support and other issues. That's probably the most elite of the training. Our dog, or ⁓ Bob the dog, or now we have Jack, Bob is retired and ⁓ he is ⁓ very much part of the family. Kasie (53:59) Correct. John-Nelson Pope (54:22) is it cost upward to $35,000 to $40,000 to train a dog just for mobility assistance. Jack the dog knows, for example, when Joy's, and Bob did this too, because if you want to listen to that episode, we've talked about that. I've kind of mellowed it. Yeah. Chris (54:42) Let me jump in there, John. Let me jump in because Casey, I got something better than that old documentary. got episode 50, Service Dogs with John and Joy Pope. we literally, unfortunately, we didn't have YouTube at the time. It's only an audio podcast. But if you want a real time, real in, what would you call it? Intervention, I guess, that the dog does. Like we were recording and Bob the dog. intervened for joy while we were recording. Casey, I'm sure you haven't saw it. All the way back to episode 50. That is a must listen if you're listening to this show. John-Nelson Pope (55:17) That's right. When Joy starts to let's because she has a neurological condition and she's about to collapse or she gets really tired, Bob the dog and in this case now Jack the dog will will get her to safety and be able to intervene. And I'm pretty alert to my wife, but They both, Bob and Jack, basically beat me to the punch two or three seconds before I even am aware of it. they whacked me. Now, well, Bob knows he's retired, but let's say if, yeah, but. Chris (55:57) Does Bob compete with Jack? Like the old service hand? No? Does he? does he know that? Why do you say that? John-Nelson Pope (56:09) Well, he's not doing it as much. can't help her stand up. But if joy falls, he will still try to go and help her, even though his back legs are so weak. And he sacrificed himself in his health so that joy can remain upright as long as possible. Jack does something a little different than Bob. Bob is a little more skittish and anxious. ⁓ Jack will, when Joy is in a lot of pain, Jack will curl up around her head. He's a big dog and I can't imagine how he's like a fur coat around Joy. Or he'll get up just like this and climb up with her. ⁓ be with her and help her when she is going through ⁓ spasms of pain. so we really, it has been one of the best investments in our lives, but we had to scrimp and save for three years to get them. And we also applied and got a grant, but you can't, there is no scholarships. Chris (57:11) wild. John-Nelson Pope (57:34) for unless you're a veteran and Chris (57:37) I was going to say veterans have a little bit of an in with the VA. We got to. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (57:41) Yeah, and there's this for trauma. So ⁓ a lot of veterans ⁓ can't go into ⁓ a shopping center or anything like that because of their experience with war. And they have PTSD and the veterans are able to do that. I think ⁓ where I have some bone to pick with is an emotional support animal. ⁓ Like, for example, ⁓ not to say that you need this emotional support animal because you send off for something and you get certified for that. You have to really go and get it from a mental health counselor or a psychiatrist or a doctor, a medical doctor or ⁓ someone, psychologist. that has evaluated your situation and that that dog has been trained specifically for that. It doesn't have to cost $35,000 like it did us, but you could do it with let's say maybe a couple of thousand or a thousand dollars to get that training for that dog to be able to respond emotionally. So I think that's important to So there's those invisible disabilities that dogs can provide, service dogs can help with as well. Chris (59:20) Absolutely. I'll tell you what, we need to move into our practical questions and where the time and shrink wrap up some of the things we need to get to. I just texted Casey for you to send me the name of that documentary or the link. So we'll have that on the show notes. Look, I'm trying. Well, I email it to me if you would, because I can't. Yeah, that would be helpful. All right. It's ⁓ because I've really been trying to do guys listening to the show. Kasie (59:34) It's in the chat. Okay. Chris (59:48) ⁓ a good job with all the links. So you go to throughtherapistizes.com and you'll see the links that we're talking about. I'm really highlighting and I'm trying to go through a lot of the links and make it so that you can really dive in, you know, with us because there's a lot of cool things out there and that is a cool documentary. But Casey, can you see why I said he is the resident basic physical expert on this topic, Kasie (1:00:11) absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think when you have lived experience, it's a you become an expert in your own right, even if you didn't have the foundational knowledge beforehand. Chris (1:00:21) Right. So on the show, we do physical questions towards the end of the show where we talk to you directly as though we're kind of your therapist. So we're to take a quick turn, spin around and do a couple of practical questions so that you can really think like this is what we do all day long. Like I said, so this is us. This is us to you, you listening to the show. Right. Have you ever noticed ⁓ that how your pet responds? Right. Have you ever noticed maybe sometimes you've had a pet and sometimes we get We get frustrated and tired with our day or we've got our kids and we come home and we just spend so much time with all the life things. Slow down and I'm going to ask you to slow down and really look at, use the benefits that your pet has in front of you. Have you ever noticed how your pet responds to your emotional state? Pay attention because it's there, I'm willing to bet. John or Casey, who's next? Kasie (1:01:15) I'll go. ⁓ So do you ever allow yourself to receive the comfort even from a non-human connection? And in this case, we're kind of referencing how we've discussed our animals, but you know, it can apply to a plethora of things here, but really comfort can come from however you are connected to your animal, to what you have in front of you. I definitely think it's something to consider. Sometimes if we will just allow things to happen, so allow the dog to come over, allow the cat to lay on our lap, allow the cow on the porch so that you can pet it, I mean, that's up to you. However that looks, a lot of people around here have porch cows, I'm not gonna lie. But they really do, it's like a thing now. Chris (1:02:10) Absolutely. Kasie (1:02:15) But whatever you're doing, I would say do it with intent, right? If you're feeling ⁓ upset, sad, frustrated, down, allowing an animal to sit with you, and sometimes even petting that animal or embracing that animal can actually do wonders for your nervous system in the terms of resetting it back to a baseline level or to some sort of stasis. in a heightened emotional moment. That's why we have therapy pets. That's why we have service animals. That's why we have emotional support animals. Because there is something within the structure of an animal that allows itself to like fire on your mirror neurons in your brain and help you come back to some sort of stasis. So sit with it. Chris (1:03:06) Alright, John's talked to somebody out there. Somebody's gotten to listen to you. John-Nelson Pope (1:03:10) Well, I just just reminded me of something at Montree. We actually had ⁓ a therapy dog, ⁓ emotional support therapy for ⁓ someone that was severely anxious. In other words, it was just off the wall anxiety. And the dog actually walked with the student across and was given his own special diploma for certification. So I thought that was really cool. Chris (1:03:36) special. That is cool. All right. got John practical moment for you listening to the show. Go John. John-Nelson Pope (1:03:41) Yeah. Let me say, OK. What helps me feel grounded when that doesn't involve words? I think that's the issue for us. We need to be able to let go of our words or our needs to word. And we get crowded and our brains get crowded and that increases our anxiety. Let's say we have a very stressful time in our day and or the boss yelled at us or ⁓ we didn't hit that deadline or that sales mark and we just feel like we're just, ⁓ it's the end of the world, we're going to lose that relationship. You go home and you open the door and there's two dogs that leap up in the air and are so happy to see you. And you know, you could have gone out the door one minute and come right back, but it's that that end up do the same thing with that same level of excitement and joy. And that is something that they give us. I think part of that joy is they're not encumbered with cluttered thoughts. And I'm thinking in terms of animals, if you touch a dog or a cat and you pet them, your blood pressure goes down. your heart rate goes down, you start to relax and all those tense muscles go away. And they respond to that as well. And they become even more relaxed, they become like liquid love and melt. And that's a form of mindfulness exercise, even though you're not doing an Eastern kind of thought and emptying of your brain, you're actually meditating. you're actually regenerating, you're actually restoring your soul. And they do that without any type of condition. Chris (1:06:00) Love that. That's a long question. Look, those are things we are asking you as you're on this journey with us. And so we end with the shrink wrap up, which is where we have a friendly competition ⁓ that wraps up the show in a way that what stuck with us and where we're at, because, you know, to finish the content that we said, you know, we talked about it. It's presence versus fixing. That's what your dogs do. for They definitely answering the question, are they tuned in and do they help us with grief? Like, yes. Right. So the shrink wrap up is, ⁓ what's stuck out to you? What, ⁓ what comes to you? This is Jack on YouTube. Hey Jack. What's up, buddy? Yeah. I want to see Bob the dog. I got a relationship with Bob. John-Nelson Pope (1:06:32) Yeah, Jack. Yeah. and that's Bob he's in the crate Bob is retired yeah yeah Chris (1:06:52) He's in the grave. Pop is retired. I love that. Jack is such a beautiful dog. now Casey's got her dog. Come on. I don't have my dog with me. That's ⁓ not fair. Where's Fletcher? Where's Fletcher when I need him? All right. Who's going first with a shrink wrap up? I'm going to go. Since you guys are playing with your dogs, I'll do business. Okay. So my shrink wrap up is listen. We grieve all the time. Kasie (1:07:03) So sorry. Chris (1:07:20) We on through their besides have been grieving our own losses for the most part. And the wrap up that Kyle most powerfully and courageously shared with us, not the wrap up, the rabbit hole. Ask the question, do, do dogs pay attention? Are they in tune? And I want to go a little further in wrapping this show up and suggest to you strongly encourage you that we can learn from them. Not only, yes, are they in tune? Not only do they, yes, help us. I'm going to suggest that you, your bright human brain can take a lot of information in on how dogs do this. Don't use the words as much. Sit with presence. Be unconditional and fiercely loving of a person that you're with or your animal. Like learn from your dog. Don't have so much pride in you that you can't learn from an animal because I'm telling you what, if we pay attention, they will teach you a whole lot of love. And that will carry into how you, sir, can love your wife, children, family, friends. You ma'am can love powerfully and fiercely your husband, your kids, your family, your friends. So let's all take a minute and really learn from them because they have a lot to teach. Don or Casey shrink wrap up. Kasie (1:08:41) Yeah, I would say that, ⁓ you know, it's a great big world out there. There are a lot of things going on. There's a lot to be ⁓ react inary towards. There's a lot to grieve. There's a lot going on in personal life, in political life and global life. And so I think the answer to some of the emotional healing that is needed can come from our animals, to be honest. And I'm not saying that as someone that's just out here, like living my best hippie life and living with all these animals, but for the most part, it's because they will help you co-regulate. They will understand what you're experiencing, not because of your words, not because of your actions, but because of the way it feels in your presence, in your energy, in your ⁓ existence overall. They can smell it on you. They understand when you're hurting. They understand when you're ⁓ upset. They understand when life's bringing different changes to you and yourself. And because of that understanding, what they offer you is something that most humans can't, which really is unconditional positive regard. No human being is value or judgment free, but animals, they are. They are, and so lean into that. Sit with your discomfort beside the comfort of an animal. And that's my takeaway for this week. John-Nelson Pope (1:10:19) Well, it's hard to follow either one of those and to hear that. ⁓ There is a sense that I think particularly domesticated animals, but particularly dogs, are gifts from God. And even though some cultures and religions don't necessarily like dogs, they consider them unclean. The fact is, they have more attributes that are God-like and in the image of God ⁓ than any other creature except for humans. And I think that's part of the issue is that they, ⁓ dogs particularly, are creatures that have been bred to reflect and mirror our emotions, features, the way we breathe and react and our blood pressure and all our heart rate, they become almost like an extension of ourselves. And in a way, if we're smart, we can become an extension of them and live like them and to be as open and caring and non-judgmental as they are. And so in a way, the wonderful thing is Let us be more like dogs. Chris (1:11:49) I wouldn't want to be you, Neil. Neil (1:11:51) You guys are horrible today. Geez. ⁓ I mean, there's a big takeaway with what all of you said. It's either learn from them, embrace them. really, dogs are an amazing creature that we are given and you guys really hit on that exactly what they're like. I'd have to say today, I think I'm gonna have to give it to Casey. I enjoyed her shrink wrap up today. Kasie (1:12:23) Eee! Chris (1:12:25) Man Casey. John-Nelson Pope (1:12:26) In any case, thank Chris (1:12:29) All right. That is the friendly competition. ⁓ wow. That's not even right, man. I'll tell you that's two times I resentful at your win when I freaking cried on air and had my play over. And I think you won that one too, ⁓ Good stuff. Both of you. I appreciate you being on the show. Listen, this is through a therapist eyes. We are here to figure it all out and live it together with you, man. Kasie (1:12:29) Joined late and still got the W. Joined late and still got the W. John-Nelson Pope (1:12:32) Yes. Kasie (1:12:36) Ha ha! Sure did. Chris (1:12:54) Tell a friend, tell somebody, it really helps us to grow. They need to hear this if you're hearing this. Tell somebody it's got an animal or it's a pet lover. Share this episode. John-Nelson Pope (1:13:02) That's the other thing is go and go to an animal shelter and adopt a dog. Maybe even a senior pet and take a risk. Yeah, you don't have to buy it. You don't have to go to a breeder. You just get what you got. Chris (1:13:09) Yeah, that's a thing. Kasie (1:13:13) Adopt, don't shop. Chris (1:13:22) And it's like Cabbage Patch Doll, right? Although a little, although a little better. All right, listen, we're going to get out here. We ran a little bit long, but this was a powerful show that we, wanted to stick with you. So stay well and we'll see you next week. John-Nelson Pope (1:13:25) Yeah. You got the... Kasie (1:13:30) Thank you so much. John-Nelson Pope (1:13:32) my goodness. All right, take care.