In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we explore the growing online conversation around ADHD, autism, and the rise of self-diagnosis culture. As social media platforms like TikTok, YouTube, and Reddit flood our feeds with relatable mental health content, many people are beginning to ask: “Am I neurodivergent—or just human?” We unpack the difference between normal human struggles and clinical diagnoses, why labels can feel validating, and how internet mental health culture can both help and mislead. This episode examines ADHD symptoms, autism awareness, neurodivergence, burnout, anxiety, trauma, and digital overstimulation while encouraging listeners to approach self-understanding with curiosity, reflection, and professional guidance rather than reducing themselves to a diagnosis alone.
Tune in to see if we’re Neurodivergent or Just Human Through a Therapist’s Eyes
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Why are so many people suddenly identifying as neurodivergent online?
- What is the difference between normal human struggle and a diagnosable condition?
- Can internet mental health content help people understand themselves—or accidentally mislead them?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/individualdiagnosis
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
(PDF) Epidemiological controversies in autism
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse
Chapter 20 – You are always getting to know your spouse…
Understanding identity—our own and others’—is an ongoing process, not a fixed label.
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self
Chapter 1.4 – Guilt, fear, and insecurities twist reality into negative thinking.
People searching for answers may interpret ordinary struggles through fear-based lenses.Chapter 1.26 – Life is one big learning process with so many opportunities to learn.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #357 Transcription
Chris (00:02) Hello, this is through a therapist eyes coming at you once again in May May the 14th So we have an interesting show today for you. I was actually thinking about Doing what we hadn't done for a little while. I guess we did with OCD personality disorder a diagnostic show And I was thinking around like what what diagnosis do we want to get into and what do we want to do and? I was just kind of tooling around the internet and checking things out and spinning around in my brain and what I came up with is what people are talking about rather than what an actual diagnosis is. So you see the title y'all so Neurodivergent or Just Human question mark ADHD, Autism and the Internet Self-Diagnosis Boom. Boy this has become a thing I tell you. So you know I think we're gonna have a fun conversation with it so. This is Through a Therapist Size where you get insights in your home or personal time in your car, knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. Look, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day in our offices and virtual settings. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. That's what we do here at Through a Therapist Size. We have Miss Victoria Pendergrass who is mothering right now, getting herself organized. So she's not gonna say hello, I'll say hello for ya. We got Mr. John Pope hanging out with us from Florida. How are you, sir? You are muted. What is going on with Mr. Pope? There you go. He's enjoying the good life, unmuted now. And we have Casey Morgan hanging out with us. How are you, ma'am? John (01:43) Enjoying the good life. Kasie (01:51) Hey, I'm doing well. Chris (01:55) So click subscribe, do your part, we do our part to blow up stereotypes and myths about mental health and substance abuse. We really ask you to subscribe, to click. John, I'm gonna let you get organized and I'll tell him, five stars please, he gets upset, so please do the five stars, he takes it personally and we don't want him upset. We don't want him upset, so. I've never seen the man angry and I don't want to, honest to goodness. So listen. John (02:12) No, you don't want to see me when I'm angry. Chris (02:21) Spotify, Apple Podcasts, we have subscribers on YouTube. Tell a friend, help us grow, we want more subscribers. actually I think I was supposed to note that we had somebody new, but I failed to offer that out to somebody. What else do I say? Contact it through therapisteyes.com. This is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. I am really curious if you're with us now, Victoria, what the youngster of the group. I don't say that. Victoria (02:30) You scared the cats out mommy. Chris (02:49) with any indignity, say that with great love. What does the youngster of the group feel about the term neurodivergence and the topic of the show, which again to repeat is neurodivergence or just human, dot dot dot. What you thinking about our topic girl? I am deadly curious. You're muted. Why is everybody muted today? Unmute. John (03:08) continue. Victoria (03:11) Are you, wait, are you asking me or do want me to ask my child? Chris (03:14) You! Victoria (03:17) I was like I was gonna ask my kid what he thought of neurodivergency. You know I have feelings about the word neurodivergency and I tend to say spicy, neuro spicy. But I mean I do use the term neurotypical a lot in therapy. Chris (03:22) Three, four. Yeah. Victoria (03:46) Instead of, instead of neurodivergent. Chris (03:55) All right. Well, this will be interesting. This will be a fun one, I think. Victoria (03:57) Sorry. He got a toy in his McDonald's thing. Chris (04:02) ⁓ very cool. Lucas has a McDonald's toy. Let's go to the other younger of the group, Miss Casey Morgan. What do you think off the cuff about this topic? Kasie (04:12) First of all, I think I like being referred to as one of the younger ones in the group. That's the first part. ⁓ The second part is I do believe that, well, I think two things can be true. I think that there is an over identification, over diagnosis and over treatment of people who identify as neurodivergent, ADHD, et cetera. Chris (04:17) I know. Kasie (04:38) But I do believe it is a real thing. And the way that I explain it in clinic or when I'm with patients in private practice is that if you have two points, A to B, a neurotypical brain will connect the point with a straight line from A to B. The divergent brain does exactly what it says it does, which is divert. So the example that I used to give until I was told that my examples were outdated, is when I say President Bill Clinton, what comes to mind? And now half of the population that I serve don't remember him as a president. So it's been a very interesting couple of years in practice, but what we're really looking at and what I focus on sometimes is that it's like you have a thought pattern. Chris (05:09) Yeah. Wow. Kasie (05:34) then it gets derailed into other relevant topics, but not what is asked. The other thing that I see when I'm working with kids in schools is when they are asked questions about making inferences or what was the emotion behind something that's been stated or something like that, neurotypical brains can usually elicit out what the feeling is. The neurodivergent brain typically thinks primarily in, you know, is it there in black and white and if it's not, they struggle with inferences and things like that. So it's interesting. I do think there's an over identification of it, however, and I think we're going to talk later in the show about why that is so. Chris (06:21) Yeah, indeed. All right. I guess I could do whatever I want to do because I can host and move it around as I want to. So I'm just going to skip me as the younger of the two left. But Mr. John Pope, what says you as the elder statesman of our group about the topic neurodivergence? John (06:35) Well, I think that ⁓ the neurodivergence is sort of the new speak. There's a wonderful book that was out. It was called NeuroTribes. And it's by Silberman, who was an editor for Wired Magazine. And he himself would be categorized after testing and evaluation as someone that would be a what is a level one ⁓ autism or ASD, Autism Spectrum ⁓ Disorder. And he was viewing it in a very different way than seeing that it was an other thing or like a disease or a disorder he would look at in terms of ⁓ patterns of creativity. And ⁓ so there was a reinterpretation and I think That probably has gone too far to the other extent than that is everything is hunky-dory and is glorious because they all work at Silicon Valley and that sort of thing. There is some real obstacles and barriers dealing with ASD, even level one, and there's three levels. But anyway, having said that, ⁓ I've had some remarkable students that ⁓ I would say were AS- ⁓ and they were sometimes struggled with being counselors and mental health counselors. ⁓ But at the same time, they also see things differently. And so I think this will be an interesting discussion. Part. Chris (08:21) Did he crap out on us or is that me? We missed the last 10 seconds, John. John (08:28) okay. ⁓ No, I think they're a great opportunity to ⁓ really, ⁓ I think there's, we go to one extreme or the other where they are, you know, we all want to be neurodivergent and all of that. And if you're truly neurodivergent, I don't know if you want to be completely because it's not all hunky dory. there's communication issues and some barriers. Victoria (09:00) would agree with John. As your resident diagnosed neurodivergent persons, then I would agree. I don't really always want to be neurodivergent. Like that's not always like prime. Chris (09:10) Okay. Victoria (09:23) crime real estate for me, guess. Like sometimes it's really annoying and it's really frustrating. Chris (09:29) Right. No, yeah, I get that. So, okay, well listen, so the reflective questions that we want you to think about while we're talking today is why are so many people suddenly identifying as neurodivergent online? And then two, what is the difference between normal human struggle and a diagnosable condition? And then three, can internet mental health and content help people understand themselves or accidentally mislead them? So I think that there's a lot said in those questions, particularly the last one. Is there a misleading that happens? I feel like... The, you know, my favorite topic, not really favorite isn't the right word, but you know, one of the most important topics I think that we can talk about is the biggest challenge that mankind has faced in the history of mankind being not social media, but the rapid pace of technological change. And I think that has done so much to the way that we operate and in the health field, you know, that that factors in just a lot, right? So that factors into how we come up with these words and these things. ⁓ I am interested in the word neurodivergent. I think it can be helpful for people to begin to understand the way that they're thinking. I think that our field sometimes avoids the very necessary and helpful and appropriate diagnosis. You we've done shows and talked about the importance and the value of a diagnosis, but we've also talked about very clearly that your diagnosis is not you. You are a person with stuff that goes on. And so it's interesting to me in the world that we live where the creativity of people is on display in such an amazing way. Let me say that again. The creativity of people is on display in the world that we live in in such an amazing way. And what I mean by that is the term neurodivergent is not a diagnosis. I don't know if the three of you will be upset with me saying that, but I feel very clearly, strongly, I see heads shake and know that it's not. And I worry that people begin thinking that it is. And instead we need to kind of get clearer on, yeah, Victoria, you're very clear you got ADHD. That makes you think in a very different way. John's talking about something I still say, Asperger's disorder. Now we call it autism spectrum one. That is thinking in a very different way. And so I believe I have a learning disability. People will say that I have ADHD. I don't think that I do. think that my mom drank bourbon when I was a kid. That's true. And my memory has like always been affected. Like I never knew, this might be news to y'all. I never knew the, I couldn't say the months in order until well developmentally after I should have been able to do it. Now I can prove it, I can do it now if you want me to prove it. Casey, I'll prove it. But it took me a long time, right? I still couldn't tell you what month Labor Day Memorial Day is for sure. I could think about it because one of them is coming up. I think it's Memorial Day, right? Okay. Casey's acknowledging I'm correct. Thank you, Casey. So we're going to have a dynamic, I think really important conversation to help people wade through what's true and wade through John (12:55) Yes. Kasie (12:57) Correct. Chris (13:09) kind of what's misleading about these things. ⁓ I don't know if we have different views about it. Victoria, let me come to you and say you heard all of us talk. Do you think we're in alignment or misalignment a little bit? What do you see with that? Victoria (13:28) Yeah, I would. ⁓ I'm trying to recall what you just said like this specifically ways that yeah, I mean I would agree that like Not every like not every single person it's not always what you think it is like it's not it's I don't know. I'm not gonna explain it any further, but yes, I would agree. Chris (13:56) I'm asking you if you think we are, the four of us in alignment or in some sort of misalignment with our off the cuff, just gut level reactions to the topic of the show. Victoria (14:10) Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I would like, yeah, I would say we're Line, I mean, obviously, we're going to differ on a few things, but like. It seems like to the core, we're pretty common amongst the four of us. Chris (14:26) Okay, Casey, do you see the black? I'm sorry. What's that, Victoria? Victoria (14:30) No, I said amongst the four of us. But I also can't, I also can't, where my screen is right now, I can only see you and Neil's blacked out screen. So I can't also base like if people are having facial reactions to things that people are saying, I, I can't see it. So I could also be very incorrect with my statement there. Chris (14:32) Yeah, Casey, do you see alignment or? Okay. John (14:46) You don't want to see me. Chris (14:56) Casey, do you see us in alignment or in misalignment a little bit? What is going on with our optics and everything today? It literally just dropped. John (15:06) Well, I think we're in alignment, personally. Chris (15:12) What do mean, John? John (15:13) Well, I think we all have come at it in a different way. Casey comes through, basically through her clients, her children that she consults with. I work mainly with adults, young adults that are really struggling, struggling to be able to communicate and develop relationships and try to have them get out of the house. so there are some. you know, some differences. I think Casey, was mentioning that your clients are children for a great deal of them. Is that correct? Kasie (15:53) ⁓ Some of them, but most of time now I'm working with geriatric populations and ⁓ early adults. John (16:03) So you would be dealing also with adults, geriatric, who have probably had to learn to live with autism, ⁓ for example, throughout their lives. And that has maybe scarred them, perhaps, and affected them negatively. Could also positively as well. So I think we're in alignment. Kasie (16:13) Absolutely, yes. Yeah, I think. Chris (16:30) Casey, your techno cutout on you. Kasie (16:33) It did, I have no idea, that was so weird. It said your recording has stopped and that was it. But what I would say is that as clinicians, I think that for the most part, the majority of clinicians are gonna agree on some basic fundamental truths, right? One, there are diagnoses that exist, right? So we agree that there are... different varying diagnoses that would be contained under the umbrella of what would be considered neurodivergent. So I think we do agree in a line that they are existing, that we have seen a multitude of people throughout our years of experience combined, where we would say we've seen most people associated with one of more of the diagnostic categories that would fall under neurodivergent. I think that the disalignment and I wouldn't even call it that, but maybe the variations of thought are probably gonna be around how people arrive at it, the influence of the internet over said diagnoses or at least making people think that. And maybe if whether or not it's a good or bad thing to have online mental health services geared toward those populations. That's where I think the Chris (17:44) Right. Kasie (17:57) the disalignment may exist. John (18:00) yeah. Chris (18:00) So let me be clear in, yeah, I'm glad you steered us that way. Some of what I say today with my thoughts might mislead you in how I feel about these things. Because I know I can come off with a lot of concerns about... Online and and what happens with people, you know, we talk about, you know, tik-tok and Instagram and reddit and all the YouTube stuff I mean, there's an endless stream now of people that are that are talking about these things and I think that's wonderful. really don't want anything that I say to come off as like I'm against that even though it creates great level of concern. my career and I'm John I imagine you can concur we started out and Casey probably you too and like people just didn't talk about mental health I mean we were always the redheaded stepchild of healthcare man healthcare crapped on us like we were off in the corner somewhere. John (18:58) Yeah. Chris (19:02) and there shall we be talked about and when we do come up it's like some crazy weird you know deal and and so the fact that people are so readily talking about it the fact that people are using our terms i say our terms clinical words clinical terms and banting them around in normal you know culture i think is great it just yeah kc you agree Kasie (19:25) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (19:29) It just drives me nuts when things are used so grossly out of context or not accurate, you know, and the misled element. Yeah. Kasie (19:36) Yeah, used to be, yeah, it used to be completely jumping into the deep end. My first client ever that I had in mental health was an inserter and stuck batteries in their urethra. And that was my first client ever. ⁓ yep. Chris (19:44) wow. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You got it. Victoria (19:57) I'm sorry, what? Yeah, roll that back and say that again. John (20:02) I'm Hank Hill, who has a narrow urethra. From King of the Hill. Kasie (20:05) Yeah, they were inserting batteries from like mice at the school and putting them in their urethra. yeah, that was my first client ever. I mean, it sticks out like a sore thumb, but it's speaking to your point that mental health back then were the most acute of the acute for the most part. Victoria (20:08) What? Chris (20:09) How's that possible? I'm stuck here. Okay. source something else maybe. Yeah. Right. Right. Victoria (20:36) Yeah, I would definitely say that my experience is slightly different. I had a similar. Yeah. Well, I had a similar experience. My first ever client had a my first ever client had a sword was threatened with a sword like up against her throat. It was a pretty crazy thing for like my first day of internship. Actually, Casey, you probably were like, no. Kasie (20:40) I hope. John (20:41) I hope so. Chris (20:43) Yeah. Kasie (20:57) Yeah. It's get real intense. Victoria (21:05) That was in grad school. Never mind. was, didn't know you then. like, yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that like, I literally was talking to a client today about how, you know, I had a new person today and I was telling them because I could tell they were nervous about it. And I was telling them like, just like how we go to the eye doctor to maintain our eyesight and we go to, you know, women go to the gyno to maintain their lady bits and You know, we go to the PCP to maintain our like, you know, for our annual exams. Like we need to maintain this organ up here too. And so, yeah, like nowadays it is more like, you know, you can, people are looking for therapists just for someone to talk to. It's not necessarily that they have these acute problems. It's like, hey, I just have someone that I. you know, need to talk to that's not like blood relative or family or friends or, you know, whatever. If who can like help me out and help, you know, me reach some goals. ⁓ Chris (22:10) just so that you're listening to the audio version. She was pointing to her head. I want to make sure that... Let's make sure that... Victoria (22:14) Yeah, I forget. I forget we're on audio, just audio so like people can listen that way. No, I was not. Definitely was not. But yeah, I mean. John (22:20) She wasn't pointing towards her urethra. Chris (22:22) Definitely, I'm towards the earpiece. All right, let me move this along before we lose control. this is the deal. Neurodivergence kind of came around to, well, we'll talk about what it actually is in a little bit, but it came around as a term. I mean, I'd be curious, I should have researched where it came from. ⁓ Maybe one of you ⁓ Google there and see, like, when did this come on the scene? I'm genuinely curious. Kasie (22:29) Yeah. Chris (22:50) But this is speaking about a very big generalization in thinking differently and experiencing ⁓ things differently. We're not going to talk much about sensory defensiveness today, but we have on the show in the past. That is a way that your body receives information in a sensory experience very differently to the point that it's like nails on the chalkboard. So sensory defensiveness is something that is a diagnosis. That's a thing. Neurodivergence is a big generalization. And what happens is people encounter descriptions of things that they feel and they're really relating to it. And so that is something that's wonderful, right? More people being aware of what's happening for themselves is really helpful. But when we're talking about ADHD, that has... a very distinctive set of symptoms, very distinctive set of severity levels, a very distinctive timeline that we talk about. Same with autism and anxiety issues and all of the things that create the different ways that we really experience things. So what it really means is a concept rather that really helped people accept that we have differences, we perceive things differently. and our brains literally function differently and that that's okay. It used to be so stigmatized. I mean, if you're different, that's a problem. If you have a diagnosis, you're a leper. And so it's wonderful that we can talk in a language that people are creating that diminishes that shame, diminishes the guilt. But I wanna make sure we understand what we're talking about when we're differentiating between real diagnostics. John (24:45) I think you asked about neurodivergence and it came around the really gained currency in the 2010s, though it probably was around before that. And I think it grew up a West Coast thing, ⁓ mostly for the California Silicon Valley ⁓ bros that were starting to do that. Chris (24:54) Okay, interesting. John (25:12) The, you know, in terms of like we're talking about ADHD, for example, well, that really, came into its own as a diagnosis, I think in the 90s. ⁓ We'd talk about that a little bit before that, but it really, there were books that were written ⁓ for popular consumption. That was before the internet. then ⁓ the autism then started. making its rounds probably in the teens and also just in these last few years, I think after COVID. Kasie (25:53) Even in the late 90s, there was a sociologist named Judy Singer that talked about in her grad school thesis about a new diversity. And so even though it wasn't neurodivergency that she coined the phrase for, and Neil has put over here in our notes that in the early 2000s, someone named Cassian Asa Sumasu, John (25:59) Mm-hmm. Kasie (26:21) An activist was the first person to kind of coin the phrase in the 2000s. But this sociologist wrote about it. Basically, her title paper was called Odd People in the Birth of the Community Amongst People on the Autism Spectrum. And she talked about having a new diversity. And this was to try to shift cultural norms away from talking about things from a negative perspective. right from a deficiency culture and bringing it more up to date from being a more like pro-social culture that just because your brain patterning is not necessarily the same as someone else's doesn't make you a bad person. Yeah. Chris (27:04) for them. Yeah, lesser than or something. Yeah. Victoria (27:10) Yeah, I love that. Kasie (27:11) Exactly. John (27:12) I think my mic is just going off on its own and turning on and off. I don't know what's causing it. Neil (27:17) John John, it's me. I'm turning you off because we're getting background noise. So just so you guys know I'm trying to manage that because it's foot changing focus So you guys aren't crazy? You guys aren't crazy. I'm doing that because it's changing focus because some of the mics are kind of special So if I do that, just watch watch watch your mic thing. So but you got you're good John Victoria (27:26) was just about they say. John (27:37) Okay, back in 98, I actually, 1998, I actually talked about Asperger's from the pulpit. I had a sermon and I actually talked about that. and I had one of my ⁓ minister friends was happened to be in the congregation when I preached that. And he said, Victoria (27:37) Yeah, y'all are used to, I'm used to... Okay! Chris (28:01) wow. John (28:03) can you talk ⁓ to my son and find out that he was very much someone that would have Asperger's, which was the term back in the 90s as well. So those terms were gaining some popularity and currency back in those days. Turns out he did, he got tested and... ⁓ at the University of Florida, but he had ⁓ real trouble integrating with society. He never could hold jobs, ⁓ not because he didn't have the ability, it was because he had a deficit in terms of being able to communicate. Victoria (28:54) Well, and I was going to... Sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say a little bit more about my experience with it. And I know we've done... You and I did a podcast episode all about... Where I opened up a lot about my experience with my ADHD. But I was diagnosed in 20... No, sorry, I'm sorry, I'm saying 20. In 2002, I was in second grade. Second grade, no. Chris (28:54) Yeah, go ahead. Victoria (29:23) That's a lie. can't remember. think it was 2000. It was either 2000 or 2002. I even have the original script that the doctor wrote for my very first medication. Yeah. It's in my car for some odd reason. I keep it in my car. even back then, it had ADD on it instead of ADHD. And I have to get on Chris all the time about this. Chris (29:36) wow, very cool. True. Victoria (29:54) about how those are not technically different things anymore. It's under all under ADHD. Chris (30:00) Well, she corrected me. used to, I was dead fast. was ADD. Come on. Why do people do this? She's like, Chris, it's ADHD. I'm like, ⁓ okay. Victoria (30:08) Yes. And then you can be specify if it's predominantly in a tentative type, predominantly, predominantly. Yeah. Well, and it's also been in the past three DSMs before that. John (30:15) to the DSM-5 TR. Chris (30:18) I know, I know John, she was right. John (30:22) Yeah. Well, don't know your ragging on them now. Chris (30:22) Well, when I started out it was ADD. ⁓ Victoria (30:26) Anyways, so I mean, even for me, like I would say that like, I was pretty like, I'm not gonna say obviously I was like the first person to ever be diagnosed with ADHD. But I was right there in that group of like, very early, like 2000s of people like being diagnosed. John (30:47) Well, it was actually earlier than that, Victoria. Victoria (30:51) Yeah, I know, but like, I guess making it, was more of like, I don't know. Like I remember when Ritalin first came out, my parents tried me on it and I don't think I would eat. I think it was I wasn't eating, it's a long time ago. I wasn't eating at all and so they like. John (31:11) Yeah, you're rebelling and you would have to go on vacation. You'd have to take a holiday so that you could catch up in growth because your eating was suppressed. Yeah. Victoria (31:21) Yeah, I wasn't on Ritalin very long because I want to eat and so my parents were like, yeah, this is not great. ⁓ But yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely interesting because I think a lot of times even people who are diagnosed with it, like don't take the time to often or with any diagnosis really and to like learn about the history of said diagnoses. So I think it's cool to like also hear. more of like the background and things to it. Chris (31:50) Right, you know, as a matter of fact, on that note, I've often suggested with people, you know, when you identify something that really applies to you because a professional has gotten to know you and diagnosed it to become a little mini expert on it. And so you want to kind of get into the history. You want to get into what it is and what it isn't and how it works. But let me transition this a little bit to a little bit of a segment that gives me the concern, right, of being misled or... or getting into a direction that is not necessary because our topic today, right? Like the title, neurodivergent or just human, right? Are we just human in some of these instances? Because we have common experiences. And like I said, when you feel that you're alone in feeling the way that you feel, and a very powerful thing happens when you find, wow, you experienced that as well, I thought I was alone. Quick funny little example, I often times felt like I was a horrible parent or that my kids were just terrible. And some of the best validating, most validating, most affirming conversations I had is on the side of the baseball games. When all the parents are sitting there and I'm like, my God, you have like towels all over your bathroom also? Like never is there clean dirty clothes put into the hamper? Like, you know, and all the parents are like, ⁓ all the time. I never have seen, you know, it's like. you feel like you're so alone and then when you find that other people are feeling like you it feels so liberating, so validating, so empowering but here's the deal we're looking at things that are neurodivergent with things like introversion or various distract abilities that we have ⁓ awkwardness things that make us feel insecure things that I get overstimulated when I go to my buddy Aaron's house and I can say that because he would feel comfortable me saying that publicly. I get overstimulated. When we went over to his house, all of his kids had all the noise making toys and it would just drive me crazy. Right? And so, you know, we have emotional sensitivity and these different things. know, Casey, I think you're pretty genuine. You won't mind me saying that you felt a little afraid today, right? Kasie (34:16) Yes, definitely felt frazzled. Yeah, like all over the place for sure. Chris (34:17) Right? And I'm experiencing this issue of brain fog that I've never experienced in my life before. And I believe it's being 53 years old and having the hormones begin to change. And so none of these things that I've just mentioned are diagnostic. They're not diagnoses. They're literally just being human. And so I think that we have a big challenge in our culture and society across the world. By the way, this Judy Singer lady that you mentioned, you know, she was Australian. So this is around the world, right? This is not just a West Coast thing, John, that was born. Yeah. Victoria (35:01) Well, think I don't I think this is like not to I guess to give a good example, which I think might people might like be able to understand is like, OK, we all experience grief, right? But there is there is so like grief in itself isn't a diagnosis, but there is prolonged grief disorder. I think I got that right. Chris (35:14) ⁓ a lot lately. Victoria (35:25) And so like, then, but then you have to meet, and I don't have my DSM-5 in front of me, but like you have to meet certain criteria for that to be a diagnosis. like grief in itself is, know, like forgetfulness is not a diagnosis, but like forgetfulness in compare, in like, in connection to like a whole bunch of other things can be ADHD. or can be like, you know, a learning disorder or can be autism or like, you know, or menopause or, you know, like the mom brain, pregnancy brain, like, you know, you have all these different things. So I think the grief one seemed like a really good example of like showing that like, you can have something without it being like a full blown diagnosis. Kasie (35:55) Men applause. Chris (35:59) Man-o-paws! Kasie (36:15) Well, this is what I tell people often is that everything is on a spectrum or a continuum for every single diagnosis, right? And a lot of us, as we go through daily life, can check off several boxes, right? Several boxes that are on these scales that we see or the spectrums that we see. We can check off several of the boxes. The difference for me is when I'm looking at diagnostic criterion, Victoria (36:25) Yes. Kasie (36:45) is one, is it chronic? You know, are you chronically having these things occur that are interrupting your daily functioning in life? And if so, that needs a deeper dive and a more focused lens. But if it's an episodic thing that's happening in the context of something else going on in life, then you might want to relax a little bit and think back through. You know, what's been going on in my life recently? You know, do I chronically have just something like anxiety? Do I chronically have that? Or in this phase of life, am I really kind of doing it all and trying to keep every ball up in the air? And if so, those are kind of two different continuums to look at. And I think that that's where people get the caught up part of it is they start thinking through, I'm really ticking all these boxes, but they're not giving enough context to what is actually happening in your life. Chris (37:50) Absolutely Casey. I mean, this is a perfect spot to interject what I really wanted to find a space to interject with. Because we'll have fun with it. I mean, John, you were back in the day in college. It's been a minute. Victoria, you were just in college not too long ago. Casey, when we were in college, we all took a diagnostics class, right? You remember the DSM class? It was the first WVU. long distance course that she was teaching us in the room and it was being shot down to the campus in southern West Virginia. And that's one of the reasons why I remember it distinctly. But the best reason why I remember the DSM class distinctly is because you'll walk out of there feeling like, my gosh, I didn't know that I was bipolar. You know? my gosh, I have depression. I didn't know that I was depressed. And of course we all felt we were ADHD, right? Victoria (38:46) Mine was more, mine was more, was diagnosing the people that I knew in my life. I'm like, oh my gosh, this sounds just like Kasey Morgan. Oh my gosh, this sounds just like, you know, all these people. I'm like, sorry, I know that's not your last name anymore. That's just so used to saying that. But like, yeah. Oh, is it still, okay. Chris (38:51) Yeah. Kasie (39:05) It is. It's still my last name. Yeah. Victoria (39:08) Cool, okay, great, didn't call you by the wrong name. ⁓ Or you know, you're thinking, this is just like my ex-boyfriend, you know? My ex describes this personality disorder to a T. That would be me. I was more like, because they break it down. They go through the different classifications and then you spend time focusing on specific disorders and like, you know. Chris (39:21) yeah. John, why do you think clinicians go into those classes and come out thinking they are or all of their family members have these particular diagnoses? Like what's going on in our brain? You're have to start over, you're muted. What's going on with the ThruIt Therapist Eyes Pride today? Victoria (39:54) Does nobody listen to Neil? Did nobody hear Neil? Did anybody listen to him? I did. Chris (39:58) I did. did. John. John (40:06) Let me, yeah. Neil turned my mic off at times, so I was not even aware of it. Chris (40:15) John, why do you think us clinicians in those classes are stuck on ourselves diagnosing or in Victoria's Oliver? John (40:24) Because we're young, we're Zhizhun, we're green, we're calo, our world is only so big, and then we have this... this, all this heap of information that's loaded onto us. And it's like, it's the key to the kingdom. It opens up the universe to us and it's a very particular thing. it's, and so in our indiscipline and our undisciplined selves, we think, well, now we have all the answers. And the fact is we don't, we have so much to learn. We also need to learn because we haven't had that experience. that people can have all sorts of variety of symptoms and somehow they manage to, in mental health conditions, and somehow they manage to survive. And we actually keep a society going. But we know everything when we're 21 and 22. And so we get overwhelmed with what little knowledge that we have at that time, and it just kind of explodes. So that's just been looking back. Again, the longer I've lived, the less I know. Chris (41:47) Yeah, I mean, absolutely, John. mean, you know... It is and I think when you start getting into these classes and you start, you know, it's interesting right like I feel like cultures and society around the world are actually having the kind of same experience that we ourselves had as clinicians when we start learning about this You know you you hear things in these diagnosis and you're like wow again, I'm not alone I want to be a part of a tribe. I get stressed out I have had crappy experiences in my life that maybe trauma has affected me. When my parents got divorced, I can tell you a very personal, hard story about the day that I found out. That was traumatic. I get sleep deprivation. Like stuff just gets into my head and I can't get out of my head and therefore I can't sleep. It's like, does that not the actual symptom of a diagnosis? And the thing is, is John, yeah, we're human. and we find a way to manage these things, right? John (42:56) We want to also, that's the other thing is we find commonality with other people and so we all want to have an identification. And I think this is a cultural phenomena ⁓ where we are in the early 21st century and that is we are so fragmented in our lives that the old traditional ways of the way we were able to identify ourselves is with our family or our community or our world, we don't have that anymore. But hey, I tend to act this way and I can identify more with being autistic or I can identify more with being ADHD. And the thing is that, or my dad was really big on ancestry. Well, that was a big thing 20 years ago or 30 years ago. Now it's... Well, am I autistic? ⁓ Do I have some sort of neurodivergency? That's the people I identify with. That's the group I identify Chris (44:07) Right. And again, I think that's great that we're learning, but we have so much more to learn. And the human emotional experience, right? That's what I say every show start, right? The human emotional experience. Let's figure this out together because there's so much nuance in the way that we operate. Like I was walking just somewhere in public. I forget where I was. It was a mall or, ⁓ I was actually engaged in. I went to buy a pair of shoes. That's exactly where it was. I don't go to stores y'all. It's terrifying place for me. But I was just looking around at like amazed at like how different everybody is. I mean just take a body part. How many different shapes of a chin is there? It's amazing. Hair, height, elbows. It's amazing. Some people have these long legs. Other people have these really big short legs like We really are all different. Yeah, Casey's raising her hand. You've got these short, cute little legs, right? Like, ⁓ why would we not imagine ourselves feeling and emoting and interpreting and perceiving differently in that same way? Kasie (45:18) Yeah, I would arguably say that we're all divergent to a degree, you know, because, because, you know, not every method is the same for every person. I mean, just look at if you've ever been married, look how the two of you fold towels, you know, like we don't all fold our towels the same way. And sometimes it can create chaos. Sometimes it can create sameness in my house. Thank the Lord they're folded. Like that's just how I operate. Right. But John (45:23) Mm-hmm. Chris (45:48) Yeah. Kasie (45:48) But I think it's just, you know, we all do things in a different set way. I think when it becomes more pronounced, diagnosis is imperative and important when it comes to the arrays of services that are available for specific types of diagnostic criterion being met, you know? And I think that's where it kind of gets bottlenecked or bogged down sometimes, you know, because I will be the first to tell you, think titles are free, right? Like we can slap a label on anything and call it whatever we want to. But the truth is, is that there are people who do have ⁓ diagnoses and disorders that do require specific and specialized training and treatment in an effort to help people access life to their fullest potential, you know? And That's where it becomes very important and imperative, I think, when we look at delineating. Yep. You're not. John (46:48) Casey, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but how did you diagnose? Did you diagnose children with ⁓ or adults with ⁓ ASD or ADHD? Kasie (47:02) Yeah, so no, because I do not think that the licensure that I have as a licensed clinical mental health counselor would support that I can do the level of testing that's necessary to do that. I would say there is suspicion here based on all of these evidences collected, right? That I think that we need to look at getting a neuropsych done by someone that's specifically trained in order to administer the testing that's available now. You know, if it would have been 20 years ago when I was starting out and diagnosing, then possibly I would say, yeah, probably. Now I will say with adults, yet if they're really into mining down into it and finding out if they actually meet criteria, I would refer them out. But if an adult comes to me and is like, listen, I have a lot of suspicion that I may be like on the autism spectrum, then we'll have a conversation about like what that criterion looks like. And there are different types of assessments that I can give with my level of licensure that I feel very confident in and saying, listen, like, I think you would be level one. John (48:15) Yeah. Do you all hear this? Do you hear what she's doing? She operates within her level of competency, which means she's a lot more competent than she gives herself credit for. yeah, so there's psychologists, I don't know in the state of North Carolina about social workers, but psychologists that would be able to Kasie (48:30) Thanks. John (48:44) test for that adequately. And even there's some specialization in the state of Louisiana, for example, then I could be taught how to do that with by a psychologist. so Chris (49:03) Yeah, okay. a minute. I want to jump in then because I want to make sure we're not being clear. ⁓ Clinicians, you go to your therapist, they are licensed to practice independently. Mental health counselors, family counselors, I am a licensed clinical social worker. Victoria, you're an LMHP or whatever it is now. It used to be LPC. LMHC. LCMHC. You know, I mean, Victoria (49:26) It used to be LPC, now we're LCMHCs. Chris (49:33) that we can diagnose, okay? It's called a diagnostic impression. So what I think I hear you saying, Casey, is you're conservative, particularly with younger people, because you can't do the testing that a psychologist can do. But we are qualified, more than qualified, to level diagnoses. Does that make sense, Casey? John (49:35) Yes, we can. Kasie (49:54) ⁓ I would say that we can give a diagnostic impression and say like there's a working diagnosis maybe of autism here, but I would do it personally as a rule out as opposed to an official diagnosis because I do not feel like in my scope of practice and licensure that I am qualified to do what is required to diagnose someone with autism. John (50:25) And yet I would say... Victoria (50:25) So we're just talking about, okay, so you're just talking about specifically with autism, right? Not ADHD. Kasie (50:31) Yeah, I'm talking about an initial, like if I'm doing an initial assessment on someone, they don't have a diagnosis coming in, I'm doing an initial assessment and telling them the feedback from the assessment. Like, especially if it's a child under the age of 18, I am not looking at that parent and saying, your child has autism. And this is why, because after serving under, Victoria (50:45) Right. Yeah. Kasie (50:55) neuropsychiatrists and neuropsych providers that give the full battery of testing, ⁓ autism can look like a lot of different things. And a lot of different things can look like autism. And I think that it takes a specifically trained person to be able to ⁓ really dive into where they need to dive into to figure out if this is autism or if it's OCD or if it's another mood disorder. John (51:22) I think Casey, what you're saying is that, and this is my understanding of ⁓ licensed clinical mental health counselors, LCMHCCs or whatever we are, is that ⁓ we are given that ability to diagnose, but it probably, we need to have a personal decision and make sure that we have the training. that we can receive that training as well to be able to do that with the assessments. And as you know, I love assessments. I love my. Kasie (51:59) Yes. Chris (52:00) John does love assessments. All right, I know we took a little divergence there. I just didn't want to mislead anybody in what we did. Yes, we are. We need to get into a section where we're ⁓ we got a couple more things to talk about after, but we like to do a section called practical questions where we kind of talk to you directly and then we'll begin to wrap up this cool show. I really feel like we can go three hours. I hate this limit that we have. John (52:04) Yeah, we're being neurodivergent. Chris (52:28) I'm glad that we're on a podcast that we can go over and go under as we need to, but we could do three hours on this stuff oftentimes and tonight I'm really feeling that way. ⁓ And so the practical questions is when we're kind of really talking to you. So I'll take the first one. As though I am a therapist talking to you through the screen, through the microphone and whatnot and asking you that, do you look for understanding, right? The topic that we're having about neurodiversity, the conversation is not really pointing as we were just talking about there, even with a diagnostic clinician's certainty, right? So are you looking for certainty to be absolutely 100 % certain? That's going to be rough. Or are you looking for understanding? Because I hope that you're looking for understanding so that you can understand the way you think, the way you perceive, the way people that you're in close attachments with think and perceive and engage. Because the more understanding and the more curiosity that we have, the better off that you will be in your relationships and in your relationship with yourself. Practical question number two, who's up? Kasie (53:42) I'll take it, could stress, trauma, burnout, or lifestyle factors explain some of my symptoms? The answer unequivocally is yes, right? And we talked about this a little bit earlier in the podcast. This is an important question to ask yourself, and this is why. Context matters. What you are going through in your life matters. as to the way you approach it, as to the way you seek out understanding and treatment for anything that you may have going on, or if you just need a space to be able to conversate about all the things that are swirling around in your brain. In periods of calmness, is it different than what it is right now for you? And if that is the truth, then you could be going through something that's just kind of circumstantial and situationally based. It doesn't mean that you don't deserve treatment or help, but what it does mean is that it may not have the chronicity needed to be a full-blown diagnosis and is very treatable. You are going to survive it because you've survived 100 % of the hardest days you have ever had. So... I definitely think it's a good idea to ask yourself, could this be stress, trauma, burnout, or a lifestyle factor that's kind of influencing my life right now? Because the most important thing we can say is not what is wrong with you, but what has happened to you or what is happening around you. Chris (55:17) Gotcha. Practical question number three. John or Victoria, speak to somebody out there. Somebody, Victoria. Tag it. Victoria (55:31) You want me to take it? Okay. So yeah, am I using it or you might be asking yourself, like, am I using a diagnostic label or diagnosis to either understand myself or define myself completely? And I think one of the things I want people to understand is that like, While yes, a diagnosis like we mentioned earlier today may allow you to have better access to things like specific resources, specifically within like schooling and educational levels and even outside of education, it does not necessarily have to be like how you are defined. As someone who has ADHD myself, I don't introduce myself as, my name is Victoria, I have ADHD. Like it is not who I am, it is a part of me. John (56:21) but we know. Victoria (56:24) Yes, you do know. But like, and I'm sure most people might be able to tell that by just interacting with me for five minutes. But like, it doesn't have to be who I am completely. It can help me like understand myself and then it can help you make accommodations to make your life run a little bit smoother, run a little bit easier, or to at least be able to give an explanation as to why you might act a certain way or why you might think a certain way. but it doesn't necessarily have to define who you are completely. Like it does not have to be your identity. Just like how being a therapist is not my identity. It is what I do for a living and I enjoy doing it, but it is not, I am not Victoria the therapist. I'm just Victoria who happens to be a therapist. Chris (57:09) Gotcha. John (57:14) professional identity. Well, you know, I hear this and I am excited about hearing how everyone has a different way of looking at things with different eyes. And I would like to think in terms of neurodiversity as being a part of a puzzle that fits into a Chris (57:15) John, do you got a question out there for somebody? John (57:42) Schema of things and that we get to be a part and we all have something to contribute I think part of the problem is that That sometimes we've make up our minds or we're anxious or or we'll say well I'll go on the internet and I'll just I'll do myself diagnosis and And then I take this quiz and and it's one of these that you get on the internet and it says oh, yes, you have a ADHD or you have ⁓ or you're having on the ASD the on the spectrum. But I think that if you're lying yourself just for the internet content or social needs or any any of those things you are you are cutting off an opportunity to really dig deep and to find out and and to get a true evaluation. I think Casey talked about ⁓ earlier about ⁓ having someone that if you suspect that you might be on the spectrum, that you be evaluated by someone that is competent and able to do that and put it in the proper context. So I think there may be a little bit of fear. There might be a sense that, you know, Even though it seems to be a lot more accepted to have, to say I have this or have that, the thing is you have to be able to make that first move and see someone and connect and not just do it on the internet. Go and seek that professional help. Chris (59:35) that. Love that. Listen, that segment is something that we enjoy where we can talk just directly to you as a therapist. We can't be your therapist. We don't have any specifics, knowledge about your life and your circumstances, but we are really trying to figure this out together with you and we talk to you about that. Let's do a quick little segment before we do the shrink wrap up on, you know, like we've talked about, you know, the internet, our identity and how mental health kind of comes around with that. Again, I hope I haven't sounded too negative about the and social media and stuff. feel like I've done a pretty good job. Not too, you know, yeah, you get edge-takes, nod yes. You know, you can get education, you can normalize things, you can reduce stigma on the internet, but you can also reinforce anxiety, encourage over-identification, and blur the line between being aware of something and having pathology. You know, we really want clarity, I think, human beings. and clarity helps us to understand ourselves and each other. But dang, when you see somebody being a little bit full of themselves and a little bit over talking somebody and excited about sharing what they know and you get pissed off with them and you call them a narcissist out of your own anger and perception, you've just gone way over the cliff. And I think people are doing that a lot more because we are more knowledgeable about things, but I think we really got to be careful. And I think you heard us all talking about that today. So go get educated, go read your memes. I'm not a TikToker, but TikTok's probably got some cool things on it. It's got a lot of misinformation though too. We really have to be careful about what we're trying to do in seeking clarity about ourselves. Right, you guys all see that? John (1:01:34) Yeah, I see it. I agree with you. Chris (1:01:37) Yeah. Particularly when you're... Yeah, go ahead. Victoria (1:01:48) Tikitalki is, yeah, I I love you too, dude. So like, yeah, mean, TikTok can give a lot like one thing is I've learned some like cool types of like hat, like, you know, ADHD hacks and things on TikTok that like other people have tried and worked for them. But I would say yeah, I like approach it with, I get where you're coming from, Chris, like approach it with some caution. John (1:01:49) Swipe, swipe, swipe. Chris (1:01:53) Hmm. Victoria (1:02:18) If you do find something that you think might be true or might you might want to look more into like do do your extra research into it or like if you have your own therapist, you know, go to your therapist, therapist and say like, Hey, so I saw this on TikTok the other day. Like, is that true? Like, what do you know about it? Like, you know, blah, blah, blah. So also, I have to get out of here because my kid. So I hate I'll miss the shrink rack up. But I do have to go. Chris (1:02:38) Right, absolutely. John (1:02:44) Read a book. Chris (1:02:48) All right. Have a good evening and you will not win the shrink wrap up. The shrink wrap up is the segment of the show where we take a moment to wrap up what it is that we talked about. We have a friendly competition that Neo gets to decide who in the presentations of our wrap ups did the best job for the week to wrap us up on what we've talked about. Also scheduling note, I don't think I said off the front end. We will. So if you're still with us and listening, you get the notification. Victoria (1:02:48) So I'll see y'all next time. Chris (1:03:17) that we will be taking the next couple of weeks off. The team here is gonna meet with each other for a couple of weeks. So we'll miss next week and the last week of the show. So Kyle will not be doing the month in review with us because we're gonna do some planning. We got a project, we got some stuff that we wanna build up and we're... Yeah, yeah. We can't say what it is though. You can't say what it is yet. No, we can't say what it is yet. No, no, no. John (1:03:33) ⁓ and I'm excited about the project. No, we can't, not yet. Well, no, if you want to, if you want to say. Because if I if I say what it is, then I'm committed so Chris (1:03:49) ⁓ man, Casey, should we let him say what it is? I don't know what to do right now. No, she says no. We're doing the shrink wrap up, All right, the shrink wrap up. I'm going to go first, guess. Listen, what we've talked about tonight is neurodiversity. It is a term that has been really widely used and has been helpful to help us to understand yourselves and each other. Kasie (1:03:55) No. John (1:03:56) No, okay, ⁓ I'll still be enthusiastic. I'll still be enthusiastic. Kasie (1:03:57) Make a boy. Chris (1:04:18) but it is potentially misleading and dangerous even when getting into self-identification of a diagnosis and such. this is something I say and hold near and dear to my heart. The human emotional experience that we endeavor to figure out together. You hear me say that every time. And I say that every time because we want to do exactly that. We have curiosity. That's what it looks like to be healthy. We have an understanding, that's what we seek to be grounded. We want to have a curiosity and an understanding of your partner and people that you're close to. But understand that we are all human. We all have humanity. We all have imperfections. We all have differences. And that isn't just pie in the sky, accept everyone. But we are called to love our neighbor as ourselves, if you follow certain doctrines. In various traditions, We want to be kind to each other. We want to love each other. And we want to understand each other. Because we really are all different. I call you in this shrink wrap up to do exactly that. and I'll stop there. dramatic pause. Casey, what you got? Kasie (1:05:36) So I think that neurodiversity, really reminds us that there is just no single right way for the brain to work. There are differences in thinking, learning, communicating, and experiencing the world are not deficits in humanity. They're really part... ⁓ of a full spectrum of it, to be honest, the full spectrum of humanity. When we stop asking people to fit just one narrow definition of normal, we create spaces where people can really thrive. And so I guess my tagline today that I have said often before is that normal is just a setting on the dryer. We like to provide ways for clarity. We like to provide avenues for acceptance, but normal really in and of itself is just a setting on the dryer. You know, it's not something to really compare yourself against because comparison is definitely the death of joy. So just make sure that you're loving yourself in any process that you go through. And if you find something that resonates with you, okay, figure it out. Get that clarity for yourself or go further and get the diagnosis if that's what you want. But the truth of the matter is, that at the core of who you are, you're a person and you're a real person with real feelings and you deserve to be loved and treated well. Chris (1:07:03) Love that. have one more shrink wrap up from the Pope himself, Mr. John. John (1:07:06) Well, again, it's the drop mic, a mic drop that both of you guys have contributed to, moments, because the only thing I can say and add to this is I'm going to reflect on my own neurodiversity with this topic, is that it takes me a while to process thinking. I think slowly, and it takes me a while to figure out exactly what I'm going to say. There are some people I find to be very quick and I see that particularly with Casey and Chris. ⁓ But we need all of us. We need the differences. I might have insights that Casey doesn't have or Chris. ⁓ And so we share those gifts and we share those strengths. And so if we look at neurodiversity as a... ⁓ an asset instead of a deficit. And if we can use it to say we have commonality and that in our own ways each of us has some neural diversity, that's okay. That's fine because we have commonality. We are in communion. We are in community. And so I would say to people that are listening is that instead of judging yourself or saying, I identify with this person or that person or that group or this group, say that we are humans in that experience of, of, of, of living and, and we are people that are learning all the time and sharing and loving. Chris (1:08:57) Neil, I don't know man. ⁓ Casey, almost want to kick it over to John. Neil (1:09:03) John's getting it. was honestly, that was an amazing wrap up, John. I think that was great to show your diversity, whatever, neurodivergent traits. think it's great what you came out at the end. was that actually, I was very touched by that. I think a lot of Google need to hear that. So John, it's yours today. Kasie (1:09:05) Honestly, yeah. Chris (1:09:09) Yeah Kasie (1:09:23) Meet you. Chris (1:09:27) Hands down. Hands down. Well done, brother. Kasie (1:09:29) Yeah, I have one more thing to say real quick. ⁓ I have one more thing to say real quick. I just want everybody to know that I had a really good laugh earlier when Chris referenced that me and him were in college at the same time together because when Chris was in college, I was in elementary school. So I just wanted to point that out. John (1:09:31) That's why I go last. I have to think of what I'm going to say. Chris (1:09:33) Yeah Absolutely Casey. John (1:09:47) Hahaha Yeah. Yeah. Chris (1:09:53) ⁓ man, that is not right! That's not right! I'm so angry at you now! John (1:09:59) I'm so old, I could babysit both of you. And Neil too. Kasie (1:10:00) Sorry. Chris (1:10:05) ⁓ man. Neil (1:10:05) You're so, your kids could babysit Casey. John (1:10:09) Haha, that's right! Chris (1:10:09) All right, do I got a kill button something here, Neil? Where's the kill button, Casey? That's not right. That's awesome. OK, great. Guilty is charged. Thank you, Casey. John, very endearing, truly. That was probably, honestly, the best wrap up I think that I've heard us do since we started this segment. Listen, we're going to take another break for a couple of weeks, and then we're going to fire up. John (1:10:25) Thank you very much. Chris (1:10:35) in the great month of June. So take care until then. Signing off, we'll see you in June. Stay well. Kasie (1:10:42) Bye. John (1:10:44) Bye. Thank you. Bye.