This is one of those questions that most people either think they know the answer or are afraid to really answer. What do we really control emotionally? When looking at how we act and how we let outside influences affect us are two ways we can start seeing what we really control. We talk about how sometimes not dealing with ourselves cause us to control others and how shifting your locus of control can make a big difference in how we let our emotions control us.
Tune in to see What Do We Really Control Emotionally Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What do we really mean when we speak about controlling behavior
- Why do people get so caught up in this question why do people get so upset
- What is internal and external locus of control mean in psychology
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Episode #229 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Through a Therapist’s Eyes. Welcome to Spotify, iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is, what is this? May the 18th. Am I right about that? Exactly. I’m right about that. Yeah. May the 18th. Thursday we are talking about what do you really control is the big question here today in our lives.
And it comes from a handout that somebody gave me this week in therapy. It’s really a cool handout. If you look at my face on YouTube, you’ll, you’ll see what we’re going to be talking about. But so this is we get the book coming out and I don’t mean the old book, I mean the new book. It’s kind of coming out on marriage Soon I uhhuh need to start pumping that up and finishing that up, so it’s kind of exciting.
Contact it through. A therapist side is a good way to contact us. Five stars are important. [00:01:00] Make sure you leave your reviews. It really is the way to help us get found. Five stars. Five star. No, four stars not okay. Oh. Four star’s. Okay. Is it okay? No. Well, I think we gotta go five. We gotta go five. I mean, we are a five.
We’re a five star. We’re a five kind of guy, guys and gals. Let’s see. This is I’ll just go with, this is the human emotional experience. Let’s figure this out together. So what do you think about the topic today? John? You ever deal with this in therapy? I just got through it. Did you? Just about Mm. 10 minutes ago.
10 minutes ago? Yeah. I, when you get two people together Yeah. Or a
John-Nelson Pope: family together, there’s always gonna
Chris Gazdik: be struggle for control right. Back and forth. It’s a, there are power struggles for sure. Mm-hmm. Parent parenting, are you kidding me? Mm-hmm. It’s like enemy number one to parenting is power struggles.
I’ve said that thousands of times. Probably shouldn’t have asked that question cause that’s one of the questions I want to ask here in a little bit. But it’s, yeah. It’s probably a no-brainer. Yeah. [00:02:00] That like, yeah, we deal with this all the time, as you say, anytime. Two people come together think about these questions.
Okay, so what do we really control emotionally? That that’s the title. And this is episode 2 29. By the way, we’re pretty close to two 30. It’s pretty cool. It is very
good. Pretty cool. What do we really mean when we speak about controlling behavior? I think that gets a lot of confusion. And why do people really get so caught up in this?
I mean, this causes a lot of upset. So why do people get so upset about these issues? And what is something called internal and external locusts of control mean in psychology? And, and that, I, I think that’s a phrase that goes way back, doesn’t it, John? It does. Yeah, it does. You know, it’s origin. You usually have origin stories.
Put you on the spot, man. Where’s internal? I, it’s, look, its control. Internal and external locus. It
John-Nelson Pope: looks like, it [00:03:00] sounds like something from the 1920s or thirties. It does, doesn’t it? It does. And
Chris Gazdik: Neil, you got time to Google internal and external locus of control orientation. He does. He, so if he comes up and he says something,
John-Nelson Pope: I’m gonna say yes.
That’s exactly what I was saying. Do you remember? Yes, I remember.
Chris Gazdik: Because I have no idea, honestly. It just popped into my brain as I’m talking about it. Four 19. Well, you gotta give me more than that. Julian b. Rotter in 1954, Julian b Rotter in 1954 no. Highlighted this notion how and in what. Like a book or her work her works or, oh, he’s going for the mic.
There we go.
It, it was developed, but it was a concept developed by her. It’s kind of a, seems like it’s just a, it was conceptualizes internal or external, but it doesn’t really say, I guessing, based on that. It’s just something she developed in her practice is what it looks like. I’m trying to look [00:04:00] at to see if there’s more history behind it, but I wish
John-Nelson Pope: I knew this.
I don’t. I I didn’t. Yeah. Well, cuz I’ve,
Chris Gazdik: a theoretical construct derives from Julian b. Rots Social learning, theory of personality. Social learning. Social learning in that makes
sense. In 1966, he published an article in Psychological Manner Monographs, which summarized over a decade of research by Rodder and his students.
So that was kind of the, it was something that he. He came up with and developed over time based on his research. Well, and all for, for all you young therapists out there. I think that that shows some, some really coolness, if you will, for lack of a better word. You know, I mean, you, you, you, you work with people long enough and you begin to really develop your, your, your own thoughts and your observation about human interaction and human behavior.
And we have, don’t, don’t think that we know it all by far in psychology. We have so much that we’re learning about. And I don’t know about you, John, but I’m constantly thinking of like the patterns that I see and what happens in, in people’s lives. And you just write an article or a book [00:05:00] or you get into some kind of sharing with other people and you’re, you add to the, the, the knowledge base.
The knowledge of our field.
John-Nelson Pope: Exactly. And I’m thinking. That for you young therapists out there as well, is that the more you are educated, you, you do your reading, your research, you’re interacting clinically with your clients, you’re gonna get a broader view and actually the wisdom. I, I would hope that I’m a lot wiser than I was 50 years ago.
Absolutely. I, I was a lot younger.
Chris Gazdik: I had hair. I think something that, that develops is something I talked about with my friend. I’m gonna credit him Robert out there. Mm-hmm. He taught me something, or he pointed something out and I’m like, oh my God, I can totally identify with this. You know what he said to me?
It was very powerful. He’s a chiropractor. Mm-hmm. And he’s like, you know, somebody early in my career said this to me, and he’s like, I’m there. I I, I get this, I do this. And what he said is, is this, this [00:06:00] experienced chiropractor was teaching him or talking to him. Mm-hmm. And the experienced chiropractor said to my friend, I can see people’s pain at this point in my career.
Mm-hmm. And he’s like, I can do that now. He said, you know, when he was practicing, he’s not anymore. And, and I got to thinking, I’m like, you know what? I totally get what that
John-Nelson Pope: Oh. I think in our, our work especially, yeah, we could see the pain,
Chris Gazdik: you can see the progression, you can see the, the experience you can see because they’re, everyone’s story is unique to themselves.
But, but there’s, but there’s a, there are threads in mm-hmm. The way people operate or how things go. So anyway, I’m, I’m totally digressing, but I, I just, I think that’s, well any Yeah, go ahead. No, I,
John-Nelson Pope: I think in terms of control as well, you can Right. You can see the patterns a lot quicker. I can see the patterns a lot quicker now than I did.
Oh, a lot. 30
Chris Gazdik: years. 30 years ago. Tremendously. Yeah. Tremendously. So I wanted to do a little current event before we really get rocking rolling on this topic. And it, it was a [00:07:00] current event. Because this literally happened in a therapy session about a week or two ago with me and my client. And I was like, wow.
So the caption of this, if this, this isn’t an article, this is, like I said, this is just something that we experienced the effects emotionally on us humans from social media, okay? Mm-hmm. That’s like the caption. I, I really should write an article or something about this because this was a powerful moment that this client had on Facebook.
Mm-hmm. And I, I really have the belief that we are really learning about how social media impacts us. So check this out. So we’re sitting here in session and she’s talking about things in her life. And the reality of it is she got a Facebook memory come up. On her feed. And it was a memory that [00:08:00] was of a relationship that was really painful to her.
And she was really upset with Facebook and how this worked for her because it was really injurous, is that a word? Mm-hmm. To her interest is is a word. It is a word. Excellent. This, this, this made me really think about we need to learn how to engage social media. We know it increases anxiety, we know it increases depression and tough experiences.
And this is an interesting example of directly how it does it. They, they will text you and email you and push this at you. And a lot of times it’s fun. And that’s the algorithms. The algorithms, yeah. Doing that. It’s, it’s the way and it can do
harm. Yeah. It can do harm. And I don’t think it’s intended, but we need to learn how to not look at the memory if it’s harmful.
Like you need to take control [00:09:00] of your view of social media. And I don’t think people know how to do it. We need to learn.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. I’m, I’m kind of thinking that we’re approaching this like cavemen, we’re,
Chris Gazdik: we’re, we’re
John-Nelson Pope: basically at the same point evolutionarily we’ve had haven’t changed that much in 5,000 years.
Success. Absolutely. And we also have right now technology and technologies
Chris Gazdik: blasting, blasting and new every year. And we still
John-Nelson Pope: have our same basic emotions and abilities. And one of the beautiful things about being human is that we’re very, Adaptable. Right. But it’s
Chris Gazdik: even too fast for us now. It’s way too fast.
Yeah. I mean, when you look at the progression of technology, I don’t wanna spend too much time on this, but it is important for the, the current event here. Right. You know, it took us how many centuries to develop the wheel. Mm-hmm. And from the wheel to the next [00:10:00] technology was like another century or something.
And then it took longer than forge of empires. Yes, indeed it did. And, and, and you look at the technological advances like we developed, you know, radio. Mm-hmm. And, and, and in a relatively quick period of time, like a hundred years or something, I’m making up numbers by the way. Mm-hmm. This is not in front of me, but I’ve had it in front of me in the past.
Took like. You know, 50 years to make the tv. My great-grandmother was
John-Nelson Pope: born during the time that little House on the Prairie was supposed to take place. Right. And she saw the moon landing.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Okay. Right. I mean, that’s a good example. Her lifetime, her lifetime had all of these progressions. It’s, it’s gotten to where the next progression is the next year.
Hmm. Like the, the, the, the start of the internet after TV was only like 10 years or something, you know, and, and five years after the internet we got like social media and now it’s like, you know, chat. G p T is [00:11:00] out. And every single year we get new apps and new technological advances and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s such a rapid pace.
We can’t keep up emotionally. Well, and, and that has
John-Nelson Pope: shown up on my browser is the, the chat. Yeah. And so, I mean, and it starts writing something. I’m going, this is
Chris Gazdik: really fast. I, I can’t take it. Yeah. Emotionally it does something to us, man. It really does. Which maybe is a nice segue to control. What do you think, John?
I’m just curious to put you on the spot. How, how would you put, I probably shouldn’t do this, so tell me if you don’t. Well, you do this to me all the time, so, well, you do it, you have permission to do it. I’m an old guy. You’re be kind. How do you really think about control? And I’ll go first. This is off script.
When I think of issues of control, I, I, I really feel like we, we’ll go to a definition here in a bit, but to me it’s like an emotional [00:12:00] interaction experience. And that just comes to, well, it’s,
John-Nelson Pope: is it projecting what, once I kind of think of a need for control is, A person that may be having is defensive, maybe is is afraid.
And
Chris Gazdik: so, well, I’m thinking even broader than that, John. Okay. You’re getting into some of the good therapy stuff in the clinical pieces, but I, I’m thinking even more broadly, just like in emotional experience about control, when people are interacting. Uhhuh, you know, I mean, projection. Well, I want everybody to like me, so I try to control the situation.
People pleasing, people pleasing. You know, there, there are a lot of concepts that go into this, but in, in just a broad sense, what are we really talking about when we talk about control? I think people get confused about it, right? So look,
look here. So, How do we, how do we define what we’re really, really [00:13:00] talking about?
So let me put in, no, I’m gonna go with that next. I like chat JP T’S definitions. It’s a fun conversation piece. Controlling behavior is a pattern of behavior that involves one person trying to exert power or influence over another person or situation. I mean, that’s a way to define it. But chat, g p t
John-Nelson Pope: is also following that algorithm that is trying to get us to, to think a certain way or to act a certain
Chris Gazdik: way.
That’s a little conspiracy thinking. You think it’s trying to control us? Really? Okay. Not yet. I wasn’t sure if you were serious or tongue in cheek. Okay. I don’t think it’s all doom and gloom. You got me there for a second. I was like, oh, holy, holy cow. Where’s he going? Usually we’re in total lockstep, so, well,
John-Nelson Pope: we’ve gotta make it interesting.
Indeed.
Chris Gazdik: Let, let’s go to the concept that we were talking about. Where does this come from? Mm-hmm. Did we do that on the mics when they were hot? Or with the YouTube live? [00:14:00] Neil was reading on the show. Yeah. So let’s, let’s go in understanding control, internal and external locus of control. We use that in therapy all the time, John.
Mm-hmm. And I think that helps us to understand what we really mean by control, because people get really, really edged on this. One of the questions for the show, right. Why do people get so caught up in this? Why do people get so upset about this? Don’t tread on me. Don’t you’re, you’re, you’re trying to control me.
I don’t deal with control very well. You know, people get really wrapped around us. I will not be ignored. Ooh. Yeah. It’s a way of Yeah. Garnering control, isn’t it? Yeah. What is internal and external locus control as we think about it from a therapy mindset.
John-Nelson Pope: Maybe I’m, I’ve, I’ve got this all wrong, but in terms of an internal locus of control is a person that has internal is, [00:15:00] is not dependent on so much what other people think or do they maybe perhaps resist
when an appropriate manner in a way that’s non-threatening? With somebody that is trying to control them from external sources.
If a person has a, if there’s an external locus of control, you’re, and the individual is, is, is in that situation, he or she may find it well, I need to make sure I just do this, this, and this, and everything gonna be okay. And I Do, do you follow
Chris Gazdik: what I’m saying? I’m totally following you. Yeah. Le let me, but this may not what I don’t No, I, I, let me frame you in a little bit in, in, with a question.
I’m curious and I’m, where will you go with this? I don’t know. How do you use the concept of internal versus external locus control in therapy? Cuz that’s the way I think about it. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I, I, like, I think [00:16:00] in terms of a person being self realized Okay, is, is to have an internal locus of control. Okay?
So in other words, that person has a sense of oneself. And his can actually receive input from other people but not have to go and change oneself so much to, to please someone else. In other words, the person is satisfied in a sense with who that person is becoming. Who he is. Becoming who
Chris Gazdik: she is becoming.
I am grounded. I am, I’m grounded. Whole. I am enough. I’m Well, I’m resilient. I am Well, well, yeah. Yeah. Well, well, I’m at Peace Shalom. Okay. I think of this oftentimes and use this with people in the way of focus. Mm-hmm. Right. And this was actually one of the four primary things that I mm-hmm. I, I actually extracted into four points that [00:17:00] came out of my first book.
Mm-hmm. And that was focus points. What are your focus points and how do we manage our focus points? And in a general sense, can we say that when your focus point is on external locus of control, you’re struggling properly. Mm-hmm. And you said, I am. Well, when you’re focusing, if you will, on internal. Locus of control.
So the things that internally I can control, I am more grounded with. Mm-hmm. I am more empowered. I am more You used a couple of cool words also. Yeah. Right. So, so to me, when I think about incorporating this into our work with people or into our self-thought, are you focused on external locus of control or internal locus of control?
And I think that’s a
John-Nelson Pope: struggle that, that is particularly germane in today, is that we are finding ourselves defi, well go back to social media also [00:18:00] peer pressure. We seem to normally I, I’ve seen people more concerned about what other people think even more so than, than teenagers and children.
You see that with adults and not so
Chris Gazdik: young adults. Absolutely. No, I see your point. I hadn’t thought about that. When, when you, when you look at the impact of social media on humanity, and there’s
John-Nelson Pope: always a Yeah. There’s
Chris Gazdik: a emptiness. We’ve even created a new, a new anxiety, you know, fomo. Fear, fear of missing out uhhuh.
That’s not something that human beings traditionally have experienced. I mean, no. You know, if you’re in hunting and gathering societies long ago, you, you probably are feeling like you’re missing out on the hunt or something like that. That was a human
emotional
Chris Gazdik: experience. People had,
John-Nelson Pope: people had a sense of place, right.
And
Chris Gazdik: belonging. Mm-hmm. And I don’t think people have that anymore because it’s everything all over the place. And you’re [00:19:00] externally controlled by all of the, I mean, you were joking about chat, G P T, for instance, control controlling us. Well, that’s how I planned it for my current event on unintentional, was about how we are actually controlled by the algorithms of Facebook.
With Facebook memories. Because we don’t almost have a choice, but it’s put right there in front of us when we’re scrolling and, and going on it. And sometimes that can be really hurtful when they’re painful memories that just get popped up at us. And part of the suggestion I think I’m making is don’t look at it.
Oh dang. It’s like receiving a letter. But that’s internal locus of
John-Nelson Pope: control. Yeah. Because if you don’t look at it, you’re the one that’s controlling the, the, the
Chris Gazdik: narrative. That’s what we’re after. Yeah. Honestly, that’s what we’re after. When you, when you begin to understand what’s your focus point, you know, I’ve essentially turned social media off.
I, I, I, I hate it cuz it probably helps, hurts the, through a therapist eyes thing. I try to do that [00:20:00] and, and engage with that. But for my own personal wellbeing, I, I don’t Facebook, I haven’t made a Facebook post personally in for a long time. And, and I and I, I find that’s better for me. Isn’t it terrible?
Yeah. No, I don’t think it’s terrible at
John-Nelson Pope: all. I think it’s rational and in intelligent to, well, thank you. To turn that, to turn that off because it has an impact. Yeah. I, I’ve seen, I’ve seen I think in terms of some of my younger re relatives, for example, my children, They have been hurt greatly by, by post on Facebook or Snapchat or,
Chris Gazdik: you know, it’s sespool.
People just go at each other Yeah. In this way. And, and I think that part of that angst, part of that anger is feeling out of control. And I’m gonna exercise my control by spouting off my view about Trump on some post. Like, what, what are we, what are we doing? No, don’t, [00:21:00] let’s not go there. Well, people just joking.
People go there. Or, or Biden they have Yeah. Or the border or, or the debt or whatever your political issue is of. So we’re living proportion.
John-Nelson Pope: I think it increases the age of anxiety. And you could say that ours is truly an age of anxiety because we Oh wow. Is that
Chris Gazdik: what we’re in? Yeah, I think so. We are currently as a human race in the age of anxiety.
Set that up and go with that man. Well, there was,
John-Nelson Pope: there was some, I, I think the, the trend of this actually started at the turn of the 20th century and we, mass
beginning and people were, were losing their sense of place and who they were as individuals. And there was this, there’s a beautiful word.
It’s on we. They had that sense of they [00:22:00] don’t know exactly what’s causing them to be so unhappy or to, to actually and so there was this, this struggle for people not to be apathetic and the, and yet that an we was there. It’s sort of a fatalism that, that in her sense of inevitability that, that their life is not gonna have control.
Chris Gazdik: Wow. Yeah. Wow. I, I’m really gonna think about that, John. I mean the, the, the dark ages. The middle ages, the industrial revolution. Like, are we in the age of anxiety? And I, I could see the point change happens
John-Nelson Pope: so fast and so it’s, it’s relentless and we don’t have the, the fortitude to I I don’t think it’s in our, our,
Chris Gazdik: we’re not made
up
John-Nelson Pope: that way.
We’re not made up that, that way. I, and I think we could get into [00:23:00] cortisol and all the other things that, that we’re exhausted that our bodies just can’t take it.
Chris Gazdik: Phew. The age of anxiety, we might need to do a show on, on that as well. Let me center us back a little bit to, to control and look at some interesting examples that came up.
Control what the other says or does. Is that something we try to do? Restricting the other person’s access to friends or family or others, you know, making decisions for the other person without their input or agreement, using threats, intimidation, or other coercive tactics to get the other person to comply with their wishes, blaming the other person for their own actions or emotions.
I think that’s a big one. Mm-hmm. That people fall into a trap on. I mean, these are. Ways that people more overtly control.
John-Nelson Pope: Chris, how do you, when you’re dealing with a couple, because how would you see that in the Gottman [00:24:00] universe?
Chris Gazdik: Oh, we’re going there. Okay. Oh, we’re going there. We are. So going there because, because I think that’s really applicable, but I don’t want to go there yet because I want to get to what, see, I just anticipate you are, well, we’re a lockstep brother.
Okay. The, the reason why I don’t want to go there yet is cuz I want to understand this control a little bit more before we exercise a daily reality. Like with the ft. Mm-hmm. Right? So, so look at those examples to me, and those were chat G P T generated examples that are more, I don’t know how I want to put it, like.
They’re more examples of like things you might see in domestic violence mm-hmm. Or things you might see in, in narcissistic relationships. Mm-hmm. Or, you know, more coercion and emotionally manipulative and I’m not discounting those things as controlling. Okay. But I want to think of this in more of the terms that we operate with typically.
Okay. Right. Because I don’t think that [00:25:00] there is as much of the intent to control another from day-to-day or collegial relationships in the workplace, or even managerial or parental. I don’t think that we’re that dysfunctional with it. Mm-hmm. Because look at this, this whole talk was, was generated from, you don’t have to see this on YouTube, this handout.
Right. Right. Where it’s a handout that says Out of my control, and it’s a page. Of paper and in the middle of the page of paper is a circle and it cites. These are the things that are in my control, and I think these are not as dysfunctional, but they’re reality based. Listen to the things outside of my control, the actions of others, the future, the opinions of others, what happens around me, what other people think of me.
These are all outside of my control, [00:26:00] other people’s boundaries, past mistakes. The outcome of my efforts that arguably could be inside the circle, but is your locus of control that we just talked about. Focused on these things. How are you gonna feel? You’re gonna feel empty, empty, empty. Frustrated, frustrated, anxious, scared.
John-Nelson Pope: He, and here’s the thought to, for me and I’ll g cuz I made it a little bit earlier, is that you would see typically what other people think and how you look and how you dress is more of an adolescent type of thing. And so in a way we’re as adults now, it’s, it’s, it’s gone into that stage basically. We, we haven’t left adolescence now.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. I was just thinking as you’re talking, I think adults do this a lot. They do it a lot, [00:27:00] whereas they used to, not as much. Okay. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: Not
Chris Gazdik: as much. That’s fascinating because I think
John-Nelson Pope: you’re gonna, you’re seeing more people have body body dysmorphia. They have all sorts of, of, they’re listening to what media is saying, what Facebook is saying.
Chris Gazdik: Look, smell right, act right. Have to write stuff, be right. I would love for you to be thinking about with this episode, how to switch this external locus of control into the circle, right of in my control. Check these out. My words, my mindset, how I spend my free time, the boundaries I set, how I move on from failure.
These are things that are in your hopefully internal locus of control, right? Being present in this moment, how I speak to myself, and the favorite one that I have here that was [00:28:00] pointed out with this is what I give my energy to. That you control these things. And how do you think you feel when you begin to focus on your internal locus of control and powered?
Yeah. Resilient, strong, powerful, really, because there’s some, there’s a lot that you can manage with that. When you switch to these other things outside of this circle, you, you’re doomed, you’re, mm-hmm. You’re just, you’re, you’re, you’re trying to control stuff that you can’t control. Mm-hmm. Right. The Serenity Prayer is immediately where your brain went.
Oh, right. Ryan Hoe Neber
John-Nelson Pope: was a Protestant theologian from the Midwest, and he was brilliant. He and his brother were talk about philosophical realism or, or theological realism. And basically they and I think that was h [00:29:00] Richard was the other neighbor brother, and they both were theologians, just as smart as they could possibly be.
And Rein Ho wrote the Serenity Prayer.
Chris Gazdik: Did he? Okay. Yeah. Impressive. I quote it all the time. Yeah. Not even in a religious way. I know it’s the prayer, but. You know, it’s just
brilliant and it, and it, and it really speaks to control. And, and it says that about, for
John-Nelson Pope: AA has embraced that for
Chris Gazdik: their, for their own a hundred percent.
That’s, that’s a core component of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. God grant me the serenity to the, accept the things that I cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can and say it, and the wisdom to know the difference is the key. Is the key. Now, that is the key is not a part of the seren prayer for purposes of, you know, properly quoting.
But that’s, you can do that. Just stop being religious necessarily. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. You know, [00:30:00] the serenity to accept things is powerful and gosh, it’s so positive. You just accept stuff. You stop fighting. I, I wrote a chapter in my book about that. Mm-hmm. And you fight against the things that you cannot control.
You’re doomed to the age of anxiety. Right. You’re doomed to just turmoil and torment, you know? But when you accept the things you can’t control, I mean, I’m trying to learn how to stop fighting on a lot of, on a lot of levels in my own personal life, cuz I struggle with that one being from an abandonment perspective, and we’ll talk more about that in a bit.
But there’s also the courage that you need to change these things that you can change. And people struggle with that. The whole idea of control is don’t control me. I don’t want to be controlled. Well, what about having the courage to control the things to change, the things to execute, influence on the things that you really can control.
People suck at that. Oh, definitely don’t do it because that’s [00:31:00] hard. Yeah, that’s hard. That takes commit set boundaries. Yeah. Learn how to control your own mindset, you know? Where do you put energy into, if you know boundaries and energy, say no. When you mean no and yes. When you mean Yes. How many of these themes come let your Yes.
Be yes. Let your no be. No. How many of these themes, John, are just in the core of what we do with therapy? Mm-hmm. Every day. You said before we turn to mics on 10 minutes prior. We, I, I see these themes constantly in, I do depression and anxiety and in marriage therapy and in parenting and in family dynamics and in managing extended
John-Nelson Pope: relationships.
But there’s a sense when a person has this really Need for control. It’s fear. It’s based on fear. Because if are, are the unknown. And so if they can’t control the situation now, I think there’s some people with obsessive compulsive personality disorder, which is different than O C
Chris Gazdik: D. That’s a, that’s a thing, yeah.
Yeah. [00:32:00]
John-Nelson Pope: That, that’s a pathological need for control. But most people have a need for control for things that they can’t change or, or, or wanna circumscribe. The, the, the events aren’t dealing with the personality disorder as they are with fear
Chris Gazdik: has a lot to do. Circling in and out. It focuses on fear.
Fear drives a lot of this stuff, and I’m gonna make a bold statement to all of you that say, I have a controlling partner, or you’re too controlling, or this type of a thing. I’m gonna make the bold statement that we all have a fear of control. Oh yeah. Yeah. You easily agree? Oh, easily agree. I mean,
John-Nelson Pope: when I first got married, if things weren’t done the way I felt comfortable with, yeah.
Oh. Well, she’s just gotta
Chris Gazdik: [00:33:00] change. Right? And you say earlier, and now we can get to She taught me, I think, well, we teach each other. That’s why I love to say honestly, in this journey together of a marriage, I mean, dude, we figured this thing out together, that that’s what needs to happen in healthy relationships.
For sure. So, but to, to your question a little bit ago, we, we’ve gotten to a little bit of an understanding, I think, of, you know, what we mean by control and a little bit about how it really works. But let’s get into the grit, nitty gritty of what you say. Fear drives a lot of these things in control, coupled with my belief and bold statement that we all have this going on.
A desire to control and fear of control and discomfort when we’re not in control like we all need. A human need. Mm-hmm. A level of control. But the serenity prayer comes in, well, emotion focused therapy, this idea of abandonment and engulfment. You know, it just, it just makes me laugh when people get tripped
out of this in a sick sort of way inside, because both people are trying to have [00:34:00] control and probably over things that we can’t control.
They just do it in exactly opposite ways. I was talking to somebody, you blew my mind.
John-Nelson Pope: I mean, you just did. I agree with you. I’m not gonna add anything to it because it’s, it was good.
Chris Gazdik: Well, I’m curious why that blows your mind. I, I’m cur Well,
John-Nelson Pope: it’s saying, saying that the person that that, that. Is controlling and you see that, but in a sense, the person, the other partner is also in that same
Chris Gazdik: engaged, in that same game, in exactly opposite ways, in exactly opposite
John-Nelson Pope: ways.
And that
Chris Gazdik: blew my mind. It’s, it’s, it surprises me that it blew your mind because I, I think I’m tapped into it in a way, you know, I mean, because I, I, I’ve, I’ve worked with people in the engulfment stance, right? Mm-hmm. And I, and I, it about a year or two ago, I mean, it’s fairly recently that I really started to be like, oh, wait a minute.
You’re, you’re saying you have a controlling spouse and you’re in the [00:35:00] engulfment stance, which is quick review, uhhuh abandonment, people pursue, they’re operating on fear. And, and cause of that fear they pursue and engulfment people withdraw. Operating on fear causes them to withdraw and, and it’s a dance.
And it’s a dance. Yeah. And so the can pursue and withdrawal cycles go on. Well, I will talk with engulfment, people who are upset that their spouse is controlling. And I’ll look at them and, and, and, and begin to look at, well, what about the ways that you’re controlling the situation? Don’t you desire control and you control by withdrawing you, control by shutting down?
I don’t, I’m uncomfortable with this conversation, so boop, it’s just not gonna happen. We’re not gonna talk about it. But so you’re trying to control your spouse in this space and they have the exact same response, John as you. It’s
like, what? Wow. I see that. Yeah. And then we could move to the abandonment where of course we’re loudly.
I, well, I
John-Nelson Pope: think, I think you, I, I’m gonna try to con reestablish control [00:36:00] on, on self and say, I’m, I’m joking, of course, but it’s that, I, I, I hadn’t articulated it that way, but it, it just like a little flash of insight, little
Chris Gazdik: bulb. Yeah. Went off. Yeah. It, it, it, it’s, it’s so easy to see the abandonment persons mm-hmm.
Us because we speak mm-hmm. And we bring topics up and we pursue, and we talk and talk and talk. And we don’t stop talking. We beat things into the ground. We beat a dead horse. Pick your favorite expression. It’s so easy to observe the way that we’re trying to exert control over things we can’t control.
But that so much, so easy. So in a sense,
John-Nelson Pope: we’re, we’re all doing that. And maybe that’s what we do for eight or nine hours, a, a, a day in therapy is just that we’re, we’re trying to help bring light into that engulfment and abandonment.
Chris Gazdik: I think so. Yeah. I see so many applications do it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it’s just so much more [00:37:00] difficult to continue that thought, you know, of I’m trying to control this space when I shut down.
Mm-hmm. It’s like, yeah, you are. Mm-hmm. You’re withdrawing, you’re shutting down, you’re controlling the pace of the conversation by snailing it down. So
John-Nelson Pope: one of the, the, the things of a therapist is this probably going ahead of where you, where you’re gonna go, but No, you’re fine. Okay. Is that we are to provide a, a non-anxious, Space.
Ah, yes. The situation presence. Yes. So that people can see that engulfment in abandonment or the, the need for boundaries, healthy boundaries, not rigid, but in a sense that there can be some
Chris Gazdik: movement, that sort of thing. I’m really smiling and, and, and whatnot because I’m, I’m currently doing a lot of meditation and thinking, I, I’m really wanting to build this in myself.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It is, it’s a little raw. Yeah. Because I, I really [00:38:00] want to be able to cultivate, which I think is a skill mm-hmm. In developing a non-anxious presence. And this came up in a show not too long ago, and you’re like, oh, yes. Friedman’s, whatever. Yeah. Created, that’s his theme. Just like locus of control was somebody else’s theme.
And it’s hard. This is not an easy skill to, to craft, especially for abandonment people such as myself that like to talk and whatever, and work things out, you know, in, in, in the real time. And, you know, to sit back and, and just be non anxiously present in the moment. I, you know, mindfulness is the theme there.
It’s, that’s, that’s hard. You know, that’s
John-Nelson Pope: one of the themes that. Basically when I was at Cemetery Seminary.
Chris Gazdik: So you were at the cemetery? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: It was a tough time. It was a wilderness for me at, at times. But there was this pastoral counselor. He was he was a, you know, the doctoral person, but he was Jap Keith.
And he just recently died. [00:39:00] Oh dear. But he was very much ahead of, of, of the organizations of, of, of, for pastoral care. One of the, one of the groups for that, which there’s not a tremendous number of therapists that are pastoral
Chris Gazdik: counselors, but Oh, it’s very few. It’s
John-Nelson Pope: not very few. Yeah. But he would say, you know, are you, he’d ask me my name and I said, I told him, I said I’m John Pope.
And he said, sometimes I think you act like Pope John. Who are you going to be? Are you gonna be John Pope or Pope John? Are you going be both. Oh, oh, yeah. Blew my mind again.
Chris Gazdik: I’ve had my mind blown a lot. Oh yeah. All the time.
John-Nelson Pope: But there was a really part of me that wanted to, the reason why I was in ministry was to begin ministry was I wanted to have control Pope John.
Wow.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Right. Instead of, and how fleeing is it when you [00:40:00] be just John? Well, You know, it’s gone on for 40 years though. It’s gotta, again, God grant me the serenity to accept the things that cannot change. And I speak that to engulfment folks. I speak that to abandonment folks. Mm-hmm. And courage to change the things that I can.
And I speak that to abandonment folks and engulfment folks. You’re usually better at one of those. Mm-hmm. And you suck probably at the other one because the key really is the wisdom to know the difference mm-hmm. Between those two diametrically opposite things. And we need to do both. That’s
John-Nelson Pope: a
Chris Gazdik: deep knowledge.
The,
John-Nelson Pope: the wisdom
Chris Gazdik: is deep knowledge, I think. And it’s hard to do. It’s a lifelong process. It really is a journey, as they say. Right. Let’s do a quick little segment on where does this stuff come from. I get this question all the time with EF f t things. It, I wanna spend just a couple minutes on, on this.
Before we get into like, well, how do we manage this so that we can deal with [00:41:00] our issues of control, which we’re now seeing, we all have, we all have issues with control. Is it biological? Is it e you know, emotional, social, and emotional? Like, where do we get these things ingrained in us? And so you, you, you externally demonstrate your attempt to control or you internally back down in an effort to control where do we learn this?
How does this get so ingrained? It’s a natural question that people, that people make or ask. And I look at it this way. I really feel n n ooc d notwithstanding some of the biochemical things that you mentioned a little bit ago. I’m super glad you did because I don’t wanna lose the, the biological component in our field clinically is super important.
We need to screen those out, young therapists and, and, and, and, and identify how those things work. But that notwithstanding, we all have the fears. We [00:42:00] don’t want to be engulfed, we all don’t want to be abandoned. And for whatever reason, one of which I really am not gonna purport to understand, but very early on in our life, we kind of find that one or the other makes us more fearful.
Maybe it’s even, which one comes first? I, I don’t know. But at what age do you think 80% of our personality is developed? Oh, I think it’s in the
John-Nelson Pope: first few
Chris Gazdik: years. Two is what they say. Two. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that is to say 80% of your personality, ladies and gentlemen, who maybe you weren’t potty trained is developed by the age of two.
Psychological studies have taught us. So at that early on in life, before 80% is developed. Mm-hmm. The little baby’s picking out, I don’t like this worse than this, or whatever. And you choose a, it’s, there’s some choosing. Yeah. There, there I, I think mm-hmm. There’s some choosing, but when, when one side or the other wins out, The fear [00:43:00] of being controlled with engulfment or the fear of being alone with abandonment.
You then scan all the things that are uncomfortable in your life and you see all the ones that are the opposite and you kind of disregard it. It’s not, doesn’t get you that much, but you really see and focus on the ones that really do. Mm-hmm. So if an abandonment person, such as myself, for example, we see where people try to control us early on, it’s like, ah, I’m gonna cry out loud anyway.
You can’t control me as I’m not, not, I don’t like it, but I’m not worried about that. But boy, when you leave the room, or when I’m alone in my bedroom at night, or whatever, all the hundreds and thousands of little interactions that give me that fear of abandonment, it layers thin layer after thin layer after thin layer after thin layer.
Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And I th I, and I agree with you on that. And, you know, you think about the, the, the children that are left in orphanages or abandoned. Yes. And this what we’re talking about in the [00:44:00] eastern block, the former Soviet Union. And they were swaddled, but they were not picked up and hugged
Chris Gazdik: and held. The only thing that was missing, they had food, they had clothing, they had heat, they had shelter, they had potty, but they weren’t
John-Nelson Pope: given the, in, in, they weren’t affection.
Affection.
Chris Gazdik: Right. No hugs, no touching. And, and, and, you know, you know what happened to ’em. Right. Well, they.
John-Nelson Pope: They basically didn’t thrive. In fact, they weren’t able to make
Chris Gazdik: attachment. And that means they died. They died.
John-Nelson Pope: They died by the fi well, within a couple of years.
Chris Gazdik: And you know, that’s not just north orphanages.
I’ve learned since John, that that was actually in foster. Situations around the world.
John-Nelson Pope: But think about there. They like some, some children are go through 18, 19 different
Chris Gazdik: foster homes. Right. And their
John-Nelson Pope: attachment problems, they have to attachment problems. They develop personality [00:45:00] disorders because they’ve, they’ve gotta survive.
And so they can’t develop real feelings for
Chris Gazdik: people, basic need, because they’re a basic need. Maslow’s basic. Yeah. You know, need on the foundation of the pyramid. Yeah. And who’s the one with the, the,
John-Nelson Pope: the wire monkey? Who was
Harlow?
Chris Gazdik: What was that? Don’t know where Boby, that is Boby. Anyway, sorry. Yeah. This, this layering happens I think throughout our lives and, and it just builds and builds.
And if you have a lot of rough stuff that you’re direct fearful of, say engulfment of being controlled, a highly critical father, well mm-hmm. You can have a brother and a sister in the same family. Mm-hmm. And you have a high, highly
critical parent. Mother or father, it doesn’t matter. And the abandonment person is gonna be like, well, they’re gonna handle that better.
Mm-hmm. They’re gonna speak up, they’re gonna like mm-hmm. You know, throw it back at ’em or whatever as they get, get teenagers and stuff. But, but the engulfment person taps into that and it really further throws them mm-hmm. Way back into shutting down hard. [00:46:00] And, and so thi this is the, my best example of where layering mm-hmm.
Is, comes into play with where we develop these issues of control and our operation. Day to day all the time. Mm-hmm. It’s such a journey in it. It, it hopefully begins to be, get caught at some point and you begin to, to get to identify that and, and develop with. That’s, you know, I’ve always said
John-Nelson Pope: that when people think, oh, well we can have a breakthrough and we’re gonna achieve mental health immediately after 16 weeks, according to to insurance companies.
Insurance companies, you, it’s 16 weeks is the magical number where suddenly you’re you’re cured. It takes years. If, if it took you. 15 years to get where you were, where you became an anxious mess.
Chris Gazdik: Age two to 17, age
John-Nelson Pope: two to 17. It’s gonna take you as long or longer to, to kind of be able to undo that.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Yeah. And what we’re undoing are all the effects. I [00:47:00] mean, I did a little brainstorm on, you know, what are really the effects of this when this becomes a life problem. I mean, just check this out. Depression and anxiety, relationship imbalances. You had mentioned that John. Mm-hmm. Disempowerment being the result of lots of over analyzation here.
John’s raising his hand. I do that. Yeah. You know, domestic violence. And, and, and just to make a, a note, we’re talking today again about more day to day. Mm-hmm. Domestic violence is like all of this stuff on massive steroids. Mm-hmm. Right. It, I, I, I fear there’s a lot of people out there in sort of what word do you use?
I just got stuck. Like average is not right or typical is not Right. Day-to-day. Non clinically significant levels in normal every day to day life. Is that a nice way of saying we’re not talking about domestic violence sub Yeah. Subclinical,
subclinical thing. Okay. That’s great. [00:48:00] Domestic violence is a whole nother level, guys.
I mean, you’re really talking about people that are controlling what their spouse wears. Exactly. Yeah. Where they are allowed to to be. I mean, I’ve dealt with domestic violence and therapy and people are not allowed to speak in public to other people. Okay. And it’s not just the
John-Nelson Pope: physical. Domestic violence could be the very, very much controlling somebody and how they speak, what they wear,
Chris Gazdik: where they go.
In the context of our conversation today, I wanna almost say that when you’re in that space, it’s dominating somebody. Somebody uhhuh. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We don’t typically see dominating behaviors. And when you’re upset with your abandonment spouse for being controlling, they’re not dominating you. Mm-hmm.
This is not domestic violence. This is not really what our focus is today. But if that is going on, safety above all else. If you fear or think, talk with somebody, speak out to a friend, anybody, a neighbor, don’t be alone and evaluate, Hey, is this, does this [00:49:00] level to rise to the level of. What did you say?
Not subclinical. Subclinical. If it goes above or becomes clinical above that level, what I’m dealing with. Yeah. Because a victim of domestic violence normalizes this and doesn’t know that it’s not normal. Right? Yeah. So,
John-Nelson Pope: and unfortunately there’s a lot of when I have dealt worked with folks that have been abused like that, they will make excuses.
They’ll, they’ll say, what was some I
Chris Gazdik: idea? Yeah. It’s rationalization, rationalization, organizations normalization so that they could understand it.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. And they’re being abused.
Chris Gazdik: So how do we manage this man? What do we do? You know, how do we cope with this, you know, fear and, and we agreed, John, I mean, it has everything to do with fear.
I mean, what are some of the things that we do to be in a, in a balanced space? In an empowered space? What do we do to develop an internal locus of control? What, what, what do we do to, to manage the [00:50:00] insecurities of abandonment or engulfment? I mean, how do we get at this? What do we do? I think you have to,
John-Nelson Pope: I think you have to admit that you perhaps you have to admit that you have fear, that you, that you don’t have control.
And so by admitting that, you start to empower yourself, you begin to say, okay, you get back into that circle and say, okay, what can I, what is in my control? And so you have to, so if you’re into list, you can. You can do list that would show, this is not in my control, but this is how I feel and how I think and how
Chris Gazdik: I can react.
My mindset. Yeah. How I spend my free time. How I move on from failure. The boundaries I set, what I give my energy to, how I speak to myself, being present in this moment. [00:51:00] My words. Boy, there’s a lot of my in these mm-hmm. Thoughts here, right? Internal locus of control. You know, you, you, you continue to be in dire straits when you’re, you know, focused on past mistakes or other people’s boundaries or what other people think of me or what happens around me.
The opinions of others, the future, the actions of others. It’s interesting. The only one of the outcome of my efforts is kind of like, it almost straddles both spheres in my. In my mind a little bit, but yeah, the, the, it’s changing the focus 0.1.
John-Nelson Pope: One of the, the, and I think there’s some therapy options, let’s say, for for this, I think people with that have developed personality I mean borderline personality disorder.
And again, that is a very, one of the core of ones being is to be able to, to start having some tools. And so you that’s the [00:52:00] development of dialectical behavioral therapy, for example. That would give you that ability to say, What can have control, because a person with borderline is all
Chris Gazdik: out there.
And so to clarify that up for a lot of us that may be wandering out there yeah. The borderline personality is shorter human. I’m speaking clinically instead of subclinically. It’s okay. It’s all right. The, the, the reality is borderline has traits where you’re, you’re, you’re interacting in relationships very erratically.
You’re up and you’re down. Your emotions are happiness, what others think, what your, what your partner thinks tormenting, and then the, the dialectical behavioral therapy, you know, developed. Out of like, let’s develop like basically a huge list of skills and we’ll pound these skills into day-to-day functioning and borderline folks.
Basically it’s rebuilding the personality. It’s rebuilding skills. Skills, yeah. And personality traits. Yeah. So, but, but I love, I, I just looked out on my list, [00:53:00] John, as you were talking and you went directly to point A, right? Yeah. And the first thing that came on my brainstorm was firstly all caps identify, right?
Mm-hmm. This is exactly what you said. Identify that indeed it is a fear that you have when it is, and I think it is for all of us. So it’s roomed by, probably should write, identify how this is a fear for you and how you operate with it. If you accept that this is probably a fear, it’s how the abandonment operates to control or the fear of engulfment and how this operates to control.
In the day-to-day relationships that you have, and I think a lot of it goes off of that surprise moment that you had, John. Mm-hmm. And the, and the, the bell being rung with like, how, how do we really do this? I think people are doing this all the time and have no insight as to, as to it. Let me say that again.
I think people are operating this way day-to-day all the time and have very limited insight. Mm-hmm. If insight at all [00:54:00] about them operating and they’re, they’re carrying
John-Nelson Pope: things that have been transmitted to them from generation
Chris Gazdik: to generation as a social learning. Yeah. Social learning, stop blaming others is a big thing I think in gaining wellness.
It, it, it’s, it, it was second on my brainstorm because man, how disabling is it for yourself if you just jump into the criticism of your coworker? The, the blame that you put towards me. You made me do this. This is a great statement. Yeah. To demonstrate like, no, you made me angry. Oh, do we hear this from time to time?
Yeah. And, and the reality of it is we are captain of our own ship and power to get angry or not get angry, but you want somebody to be the
John-Nelson Pope: captain of your heart. That was from an old, old
Chris Gazdik: song. [00:55:00] Yeah. Go further with it. No, no, no, no. Don’t go further. No, I was just doing a song he’s gonna break out in a song.
Come on. I know you want to. No, I’m not gonna do that. But, but this, this, getting out of this trap is, is, is actually good for you. You know, if, if I, I, I love to just popped in my brain. We have a pretty famous guy here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area in the States that was a pastor Jimmy Graham, right?
Yeah. And, and, and one of the things he was famous in saying among many things is, you know what, if you have a problem in your church, you deal with it within your church. Yeah. Meaning, why would you just, you know, complain about this or yell about this or blame this and bitch about that? It’s like, let’s work it out together in a church, if that’s
John-Nelson Pope: the problem.
So that you have that’s in a, in a church way, is an internal locus of control.
Chris Gazdik: A hundred percent. Yeah. It was brilliant. Billy, Billy Graham. I said, Jimmy, didn’t I? We’re close my head. I’m getting [00:56:00] tired. Where’d that come from? Thank you. Well, I, I was too polite to correct you. Hey, slam me. I have no problem with that.
I need correction all the time. Boundary management becomes important. We talk about that all the time. Well, you know, also
John-Nelson Pope: for borderline
Chris Gazdik: that’s, well, you’re stuck on borderlines today. What’s up with that? Go ahead. Sorry. I, I don’t know.
John-Nelson Pope: Maybe I, but, but yeah, the, the learning boundary control, because there’s a sense that there are no boundaries.
We have no boundaries.
Chris Gazdik: So I Is it, is it, I’m curious. Lemme take a stab at something, John. It is borderline on your mind thinking about control issues because the issues of control with that dynamic being around are so loud. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah. It’s loud. It it, it’s really loud. It’s really easy to see. Yeah.
And, but it can also be
John-Nelson Pope: subtle. We do that you don’t have to have a [00:57:00] personality just disorder to have control issues. Right. But
Chris Gazdik: I mean, it’s again, we all illustrated. Yeah. That’s my main Yeah. We do today. Yeah. You know, and so, yeah. So I wondered if that, that was what was going, so focus of course, on what can be controlled and defocus on what can’t be controlled.
We’ve talked about this is what Well, that’s ex, that’s a
John-Nelson Pope: good behavioral therapy. Right into
Chris Gazdik: technique center of behavioral techniques, you know, self-care that’s always on the list. I generate the cornerstone of mental health is self-care. You know, instead of trying to control what we cannot control, we focus in on de deescalating ourselves and, and, and relaxing so that we’re, you know, not constantly beating our head up against the wall, trying to control those things in the outer circle.
Coping with anxieties that can trigger controlling behaviors, improving self-esteem. And the idea of mindfulness. [00:58:00] You know, these, these, these are, they’re conceptual in Bass John. But how, how much do you think and how can people really practice these things?
John-Nelson Pope: I think they can practice them. I, I see Zen on one of your bookshelves here, here.
And so mindfulness one does meditation, and it could be Bible study if if you’re from a Judeo-Christian background or, or from the Abrahamic religions, which is the idea of the reading scripture and reading psalms, and to meditate on what that means. So it’s a centeredness and reflection. And so making oneself open to and learning what real control is.
Chris Gazdik: You know what’s funny, I, I’m just listening to you and I’m curious how you’ll see this. How do we cope with the fears [00:59:00] that lead to controlling behaviors? My, what’s ringing in my head right now is listening to you is slow down. You’re going too fast, you gotta make the morning last. Right? Yeah. We, we’ve gotten so fast paced and the result of that can we say, is just getting more and more out of control.
Mm-hmm. The more that we speed up. Mm-hmm. So slow down and reverse that trend and just slow down. I don’t know. It, it seems, does this seem too simple?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. It, but that can be very daunting because we’re told all the time by media and by those algorithms conspiracy algorithm. I’m, I’m joking about that, but it’s always fast and furious.
Fast
Chris Gazdik: and furious. Fast and furious. Do more, produce, do more, more, be more. You know, you’re not enough. You [01:00:00] know, keep up with the, do something,
John-Nelson Pope: be a be a a do or not a beer. Just
Chris Gazdik: can. Maybe that’s the conclusion here a little bit in, in, and it wasn’t even on my list, I was just listening to you and occurred to me.
Do we just need to slow down? Yeah. And, and, and in that space that gets created when we’re slowing down, calm comes in, empowerment comes in. You, you examine yourself and you’re with yourself. You know, I’m getting ready to drive to West Virginia this weekend, and I love driving John, and I’m gonna be in the car by myself and I usually listen to podcasts and stuff.
Here you go. Take me Home. Country Roads. That’s right, baby. Best state in the union Here in the United States, in my opinion. But what does that matter? It it just, I’m, I, I, I do enjoy also just turning everything off and I’ll just, I’ll, I’ll spend at least an hour just driving. You know, we had a guest on the show a year or two ago that talked about solitude.
Mm-hmm. And the power [01:01:00] and value of solitude. Mm-hmm. And we don’t, we don’t do things in solitude anymore very much. That’s,
John-Nelson Pope: that’s the difference. Because solitude is not being lonely. Being solitude is, you could be alone and be whole. Right. Yeah. And solitude is, it’s, it’s a communion
Chris Gazdik: with nature, with nature, with God, your creator, with yourself, with self.
Yeah. Bring us down. I’ll take us out. Closing thoughts, John? Good conversation. I think today really was something that people deal with way more than you probably thought you did. Yeah. One of the
John-Nelson Pope: Thank you. One of the my best teachers for mindfulness was a. A retired army ranger, Joseph Bieber, and he taught me about meditation in one of my doctoral classes.
[01:02:00] And Dr. Bieber came from a Catholic tradition and so he did guided imagery and it was something that helped me relax and gave me some tools. And interestingly enough if, if we go through some, a guided meditation, I can go under very quickly and I think we can all learn how to do that. And we actually learn ultimate control, and that is to give up.
All the other stuff that we think we, that is important need. Yeah, you don’t need that. Just don’t just need
Chris Gazdik: yourself. You know, we had a comment on YouTube. When folks cannot control themselves, why do they think they should control others? Why don’t they. Look to themselves first, which is what you were just talking about.
I love that. I’d like, I think this show notes, I think this has a lot to do with fear and we operate out of this fear that [01:03:00] disables us with our internal locus of control. Listen, there’s great pain in a lot of this, but there’s also great freedom in learning to get out of this. I didn’t plan it, but our conversation kind of landed very much on slow down.
So I invite you to figure this out together with us to slow down, gain control over the things that you can control in those brilliant words of those serenity prayer, and then accept the things that you cannot control with developing the wisdom to know the difference. I can’t think of a better way to join you in taking us out on this show than the words of the Serenity Prayer.
Stay. Well be well, and we’ll see you next week. Bye.