In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we explore the fascinating tension between your intellectual and emotional levels of function—and why stress, anxiety, and modern life so often knock these systems out of balance. Building on insights from Episode 27 (“Trust Your Gut or Use Your Head”), we ask how clearly you can think when your emotions are dysregulated, whether your head or heart leads under pressure, and what it really means to function at a high level. We break down the neuropsychology behind the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, how brain fog shows up in anxiety, depression, aging, and even holiday stress, and why today’s tech-driven world pushes us into emotional reactivity. Finally, we offer practical ways to reconnect thought and feeling—pausing to reflect, naming emotions, building resiliency, and strengthening that vital bridge between logic and emotion.
Tune in to see Intellectual vs. Emotional Level of Function Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- When I’m under stress, do I respond more with my head (logic) or my heart (emotion)?
- How does my emotional state affect my ability to think clearly and make decisions?
- Can I truly function at a high intellectual level if my emotional system is dysregulated?
Links referenced during the show:
From Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self — Chapter 1.33 | Realize change does not happen to us; it happens with us.
From ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse — Chapter 19 | “You marry a partner, not a personality.”
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #336 Transcription
Chris (00:00) And Neil says go. This is Through a Therapist's Eyes. Welcome to another edition. We are on episode 336 and tonight we're going to be talking about intellectual versus emotional level of functioning. And this is kind of a playoff of on the shows we've done recently, actually. So we're going to pepper that in. My newest favorite topic. Casey, you know what that is now, right? Kasie (00:23) technology and humans. Chris (00:25) Yes! You didn't sound very confident there. Kasie (00:27) Nanobytes in your mouth. Nanobots in your brain. ⁓ Chris (00:29) And what? Nanobots! We talked about nanobots last time. We did. But it was actually in your whole body. Kasie (00:35) There was actually an algorithm, there was an algorithm on my Facebook today about nanobots and dental work. Chris (00:42) I'm not shocked. This is Miss Casey Morgan who has joined us back. She is on the panel. Miss Casey, welcome. John Pope (00:42) you Kasie (00:48) Hello, thank you so much. Glad to be here. Chris (00:51) And we had Mr. John Pope hanging out with us. John Pope (00:54) Glad to be back. Good to see you all. Chris (00:56) And we will have to- I'm sorry, John, Sorry, I've talked over you there. John Pope (01:00) No, Chris (01:02) Yeah, and we'll have Victoria back with us when she gets organized and jumps on to the platform that we have here for episode 336. The questions that we want you to think about is that when I am under stress, do I respond more with my head logic or my heart emotion? Second pondering question as we go through, how does my emotional state affect my ability to think clearly and make decisions? And then thirdly, I truly function at a high intellectual level with my emotional system in dysregulated state? And I think those are going to be pretty good questions. And you can see even as the questions kind of go along, you know, plays off of some of the themes. This also plays off of my all time favorite show. I had a note on here. I don't know where it is. What happened, Neil? I think you took it off of there. no, there it is. Episode 27, all the way back to 2-7. Yeah, my favorite title was decision making. Trust your gut or use your head. Not bad. John Pope (02:04) That makes sense. It's good. Chris (02:05) Yeah? That didn't sound like a big ringing endorsement. ⁓ John Pope (02:09) No, no, no, I think it's good. I've just, what I'm thinking is, is that that's been a few years. And so let's see how you have grown in your understanding. Let's see how science has grown or psychology has grown. Chris (02:21) Mmm. How have we evolved? Interesting to say the least. So I the books out through a therapist's eyes, re-understanding emotions and becoming your best self, and then through a therapist's eyes, re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. You know, I find that people are actually more interested in the self book. Like, yeah, why I was shocked by that. The marriage book is bigger. I had a lot more to say and they all want the first book still. I don't know. We don't want to talk about marriage? Anyway. They're both good. Get them. You can get them. Get them for Christmas presents. I think a marriage book would be a great Christmas present, John, don't you think? John Pope (03:00) I think so too. I highly recommend it. Chris (03:04) Casey, honest, it's a horrible Christmas gift, isn't it? Kasie (03:07) Horrible. They would rank up there with like pots and pans for me. Horrid. Chris (03:09) you John Pope (03:13) Or a tie for me. Right? Chris (03:16) Okay, John, you're too kind. So this is where you get insights from a therapist, a panel of therapists, as you say, in your car or personal time at home, but knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. Click, subscribe, do your job. We do our job. We're asking you to do our job. Your job is to subscribe, find a friend to subscribe, click the bell for notifications and like the videos, all that fun stuff. John, you got to tell them about the five stars. John Pope (03:41) You've got to have five stars for us through a therapist eyes because it will raise the algorithm up so that we will go to the top like cream to the very top of the drink, of the milk. Kasie (03:58) Love it. Chris (03:58) You're doing really well there to the last line man This is contact it through a therapist eyes comm is great way to contact us We'd like to embed thoughts into our shows as we go Guys, we believe that mental health is really an important topic We believe that mental health is something that we all need to be working on aware of managing Really something that we don't do quite so well. I maintain that we need to really grow with so John Pope (04:00) Blah blah Chris (04:23) This is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together. Casey, you got to miss that line a little bit. Kasie (04:30) Yeah, I do. It's one of my favorite things. Like I said last show, I use it in my practice a lot. Like, you know what, let's endeavor to figure this out together. John Pope (04:38) Mm-hmm. Chris (04:39) Love that. So if you're joining the show and you're an old listener, you will remember Casey. When Victoria comes on, we'll try to keep her contained. We did a big reading last time. were like, I was all giddy. I guess I should just speak for myself that Casey's back. It really truly is wonderful to have you back Casey. I think we're going to do some awesome things and having your insight on the show is super valuable. Kasie (04:57) Awesome. Thank you. Chris (05:01) So let's launch defining the two levels of functioning, right? So we have to really understand what's going on with the way that we think, the way that we operate. We really function on two totally different levels. One is our intellectual level of functioning. We know our frontal cortex. We understand that we're reasoning humans. We think through things. We take abstract thoughts altogether and we wire them together and engage and arrive at thoughts and sometimes that relates to decisions. That also relates to perceptions and opinions. We do a lot as human beings with the intellectual functioning. It's the rational, cognitive, abstract, problem-solving component of what we do right here in our frontal cortex. Then we have data debating. Managing finances those those executive functions. They're all from the frontal cortex on the YouTube version I like to use my hand as a brain, right? I learned this at a conference. This is your little brain. I'm talking to you Casey Kasie (06:07) Yeah, your stem is showing. John Pope (06:09) It looks like one of the Muppets or Koopla's friend Nolly. Chris (06:11) Long step. frontal cortex is right here, the front of your head. If you pry that up, you'll see my thumb in the middle. That's the limbic system. And that is where all of our emotion functions. That is the level of functioning that is driven by the limbic system. That's a fun word. Our friend, the amygdala. How do you pronounce that? Amygdala. Amig-du-la. Kasie (06:34) think the last. John Pope (06:34) Amigala, amigala. Chris (06:37) amygdala. That's a funny word to pronounce, I think. Is there a G in there? There's not a G. There's no G. Kasie (06:37) Yeah. Yeah, I learned how to spell it by saying Amy G. Dalla. That's how I learned how to spell it. Chris (06:48) I love that. And Amy G. Dola. Okay. That's, that's, that's good. Kasie (06:53) Yeah. John Pope (06:55) That's actually a resilient part of the brain, so to speak. It's something that can be restored even after being under tremendous stress. Kasie (06:58) It is. Hmm. Chris (07:06) It is an amazing part of our brain. And some would say back to my little hand thing, if you see on the YouTube, my arm is the stem that goes all the way down your spine. The amygdala and this emotion system, my thumb right in the middle, some believe that is the oldest part of our brain, right above the brain stem. When did it become part of a human? I don't know. don't know that we really know the science of that, but I... can imagine we would need that before anything. We certainly had that before our big frontal cortex and all the thinking we do, right? But it's the amygdala, the hippocampus. Do y'all know what the insula is? John Pope (07:38) It's near the cerebellum, it? It's an insular cortex. It deals with integration. It's with the integration of emotions. And it's also dealing with the cerebral cerebellum, isn't it? Maybe? I'm not sure. ⁓ Chris (07:45) Yeah, I didn't know. Deals with what? look it up. I just did. Kasie (08:05) Yeah, it's the connector. So basically what it really does is it just kind of like fissures between things. And what'd you say? John Pope (08:05) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chris (08:15) So it's the communicator. It's almost the communicator between our thoughts and feelings. John Pope (08:20) Yeah, yeah, Kasie (08:20) Yeah, in a lot of it, if you think about insularity structures, know, when we think about insularity structures, we think about like the way apartment buildings and things like that are connected. Those are connected through insularity structures. Same kind of like concept there. John Pope (08:21) it's a switchboard. Chris (08:37) did not know. Yeah, I did not know. The computer says insula can refer to a brain region called the insular cortex. That is I-N-S-U-L-A-R. Insular context or a type of ancient Roman apartment building, it says. All right. John Pope (08:49) Latin word for island. Yes. Kasie (08:55) There you go. Chris (08:57) Anyway, the insular context is a part of the brain that processes emotions, bodily sensations, and self-awareness. While the Roman insula was a multi-story housing block for non-elite citizens, Kasie (09:09) There you go. John Pope (09:09) because it was like an island. Kasie (09:11) You Chris (09:12) Okay, yeah, that's interesting. seriously, hey, we're figuring this out together. I did not know what an insula is. John Pope (09:13) is compassion. So we're getting a Latin lesson on top of everything. Kasie (09:21) Gosh, this is Chris (09:21) Yeah. Kasie (09:21) multifaceted, multifaceted here. Chris (09:24) This is where we govern our mood, our empathy, relationships, motivation. It's kind of like how you respond to rejection or how you respond to grief or love. know, the emotion-focused therapy that we talk about, that I talk about a lot, operate from a lot. You know, your emotional level can take over. Like when you're having a hot, heated conversation with your wife or your husband and you begin feeling the body sensations, the adrenaline kicks up, the cortisol kicks up, you you feel wired or that tension feeling, that is all your emotional level. That is all in this limbic system. And it kind of takes your frontal cortex like offline so that you're in operation on the emotional level. And we're going to talk about that a little bit tonight because that's the way you know, we can lose control of our conversations or lose control of our situations, all these types of things, because we lose thinking and we operate in the emotional realm. So that's going to be, you know, what we kind of get into with, you know, how these things interact. So I was doing show notes and kind of seeing guys where. course, I just let the cat out of the bag a little bit. The thinking is, is that. the systems kind of want to balance each other. Right? Thinking and feeling, the level of functioning on an intellectual level, the level of functioning on an emotional level, balances each other out, is the notion. And I'm not sure, do you all think they balance? Like, I don't know that there's a balance, honestly. Kasie (10:59) I don't think it's a balance. think that one can help balance out the other. for example, if I, like let's say I'm driving in a car and the car in front of me has an accident, right? Because I'm not a first responder, I'm probably gonna have an immediate kind of emotional reaction to that scene. And then in order to get into emergency management mode to like call 911 and things like that. I'm gonna have to tap into the rational side of my brain into that frontal lobe to figure out what steps to do next. The difference being if I'm a first responder and I arrive on the scene, they're showing up with their rational brain in order to do their job to approach the scene with a different lens. But afterwards, the emotional fallout from that based on what they experience or what they see can help kind of balance out being only in rational brain throughout the course of that experience. I think the problem becomes when we cut off one part of that or try to balance it out by utilizing the other side that we start to experience an overwhelming amount of emotion or an overwhelming amount of only rationality that it starts to kind of govern like you said govern a mood or kind of prune away some of the bigger emotions that we may be experiencing or prune away the coping mechanisms that we need to get through. Chris (12:27) Yeah, yeah, it's interesting you went in a different direction with that. I thought you were going in the same direction. I think you've talked about it. Maybe it was somebody else. Do you tend to highlight, Casey, the difference between a first responder and then a regular citizen and that contrast? Because I don't think you just talked about that just now. Kasie (12:41) Mm-hmm. No, but I mean, I think the approaches are kind of similar in the way that they approach the same set of circumstances in a different way. Chris (12:55) So what I was thinking was a little different, maybe, I'm not sure. What I was thinking is, okay, when you walk up to that scene or drive up to that scene, it's a very different experience between a first responder and a typical citizen. And most of us have had the experience as a typical citizen driving up on a dramatic scene. Maybe it's a neighbor going crazy or a car wreck that's happening, right? Kasie (12:58) Okay. Victoria (13:13) as a typical citizen driving up on a dramatic scene. Maybe it's a neighbor. Chris (13:19) There's a very distinct difference. Victoria, do we have microphone? She joined us. She's figuring it out. Victoria's coming in, by the way, ⁓ with the echo. The citizen comes up, Casey, and their thinking kind of goes offline and the limbic system's in charge because it's dramatic. It's hard. It's like intense, right? And then after they settle down, later on through the day, they're Victoria (13:20) There's a very distinct difference. John Pope (13:28) Victoria the Glorious. Chris (13:45) our intellectual system will catch up and create that balance that I think you were talking about. But it's different when a first responder comes on the scene. They don't get that hop. They don't get that big jump. What they get is a super calm intellectual mode that is already in functioning because they're already that quickly triaging this needs to happen, that needs to happen, then we'll do this. It's like there's an automatic system, the frontal cortex. John Pope (14:10) Is that dissociation, a type of dissociation? In other words, it's putting the emotions on the back burner. I'm wondering, to people that are snipers, for example, they don't, their heart rate actually goes down when, yeah, when they shoot, when they shoot the weapon. ⁓ Chris (14:29) Great. You know, I don't, I don't, it's, that's a really interesting thought, John, in the sense that I don't, I'm really curious what Casey you think about that, and Victoria, if you're joining us. You know, I don't think that's disassociation. I find that to be a little bit more like, like when you're disassociated, you're in operation, but you're not really aware. You kind of lose awareness or consciousness a little bit. Victoria (14:45) Yeah, I'm here. John Pope (14:56) Okay, is it a hyper awareness? Yeah. Chris (14:59) Yes. Yeah. Kasie (15:01) Yeah, so that would honestly be more my take on it is that. they go more into an activation towards like first, second, third, like what needs to be done first, second, next. And I think that they're constantly processing the steps of the job versus emotionally attaching to what's actually happening at the actual like scene. And in a way, I would even argue even in the course of our profession, we have to detach in some perspectives of some of the things that we even hear throughout the day. mean, think about it when we're having hour long sessions of emotionally intensive conversation about what sometimes is the most traumatic thing a person has gone through in their whole entire life. If we responded to the level of emotion that was presented every single time, we would probably be pretty ineffective at our job if John Pope (16:04) Yes. Yes. Kasie (16:05) weren't able to kind of separate out, you know, those kind of compartments in the brain to be able to perform in the context of our job. So I think it is a little different than dissociating, but definitely not out of the woods of that same kind of ballgame. Victoria (16:19) On one. John Pope (16:24) Right. And I would agree with you. I use that term because I was trying to find the right word. But it's sort of a there's a there is a short term omnipotence that might be going on at the time or or omni. Yeah. And maybe not omniscience, omniscience that's going on at that time, because you're you're hyper aware of the situation and you Chris (16:24) Victoria has. John Pope (16:48) you're able to make decisions and assess and a lot of things are going on at the same time and you are triaging, you are doing this and that's exhausting work. I exhausted after I do two or three sessions in a row, but I think I would be in a lot worse case position if I internalized everything. Chris (17:08) And that's what I was getting at with first responders. Their intellect is on board and they triage and make decisions, but their emotion center doesn't really get triggered. It doesn't get stimulated. When we as citizens go away from the scene, we settle our emotion system down and then we can intellectually process what happened. But first responders, for instance, they stay in that intellect. Their emotion doesn't really come up to the surface because the situation is down and they never really get to to process that emotion, it just stays internalized. John Pope (17:38) ⁓ okay. So that's actually a negative reaction, perhaps. Chris (17:45) I don't know. I want a first responder to be pretty heady. I want them to be pretty intellectual. John Pope (17:48) Yeah, but you don't want him to be that when he's home with his kiddos or she's with her kiddos. Chris (17:53) No, correct. Victoria (17:55) Mm-hmm. Chris (17:55) It's a problem. Kasie (17:57) Well, definitely I think that adrenaline also takes over no matter which role you are, whether you're the citizen or the responder, it's just the way where you respond to that adrenal reaction that makes it. whether or not we can perform as if we've got ice in our veins or if we're going to perform like I would, which is, my gosh, what's actually happening? I need to get myself together to be able to help these people. know, but therein lies the problem because I do believe that first responders are emotionally impacted by what they witness on an ongoing basis as we see in practice every single day. But I think it's processing and the recovery process that doesn't happen for them going back to what you were first Chris (18:34) Very good. Kasie (18:41) talking about about the balance of it all. They don't have the time often to balance out with being able to express or walk through the emotional side of what just happened. And so it becomes suppressed. And when things become suppressed, then that is when we see it at home with our kiddos or our spouse or with ourselves. And that is when we see an increase in uptake of maladaptive coping skills on and that therein lies. kind of the issues. The same thing for a person that's always in a heightened state of anxiety or in a low state of depression when it's constant and consistent over the course of time without that balance it becomes who you become as a person right? Like we're if we're not experiencing and feeling the feelings and learning how to balance it out then we are going to become those feelings. So the converse is correct. Chris (19:20) That's where I was going next. John Pope (19:33) Yeah. Chris (19:33) ⁓ exactly. let me go back, let me center us back and you transition just perfectly. So ideally, these systems balance each other out. So emotions give meaning and motivation to our thoughts, and then intellect provides structure and guidance to our feelings. Think about that. Let me say that again. This is the balance that we're trying to get with the intellectual function and the emotional function. Emotions give meaning and motivation to our thoughts, and then intellect provides structure and guidance to our feelings. That is a symbiotic kind of ideal situation. We're talking about first responders and there's a trouble with that because there isn't that integration quite so much. when balanced, know, research they talked about, I was kind of surprised by this phrase, right? We have emotional intelligence. What is emotional intelligence? should say we're not going to go down that rabbit hole today, but this definition, I think, is pretty interesting and on point with exactly what we're talking about. emotional intelligence is the ability to think clearly while feeling deeply. So you come on that scene, you're feeling it, but you're also thinking it and kind of working at the same time so that you can be mass effective. But then you transition as Casey perfectly to, like what happens when you have anxiety, Victoria? Is that a very balanced state. Victoria has joined us by the way and she's seen Casey for the first time on the panel for a long time. Do your thing. Victoria (21:01) Thanks. going to be honest, I'm not really sure what we're talking about, but I think I've thought up. But yes, when you have anxiety, you're not going to be very emotionally stable or emotionally level ⁓ because you have anxiety. Chris (21:13) Exactly. Yeah. mean, you you think about it, whatever type of anxiety it is, you have a lot of worry. You have a lot of hyper thinking. You don't stop kind of engaging what it is that, you know, your, your, your, your OCD is driving you to think about it. Basically biologically hijacks your intellectual system. Highjacks. So does depression. Victoria (21:32) Thank Chris (21:38) You know, when you get into a state of depression, you're not able to have motivation. don't have interesting things aren't interesting. Your energy level is low, sex drive, appetite drops. Like you're in a biological state and the emotional limbic system, remember my thumb, right? In the center of my brain. That sucker takes over and it just pleats your brain's ability to think. John Pope (22:00) Emotional states fright. Yeah, I remember I was in a play and I stumbled on my lines and I was going, time just went to seem to drag on forever. I didn't know what to say. And my emotions immediately took over and I felt everybody's eyes were on me to say something in that play. Chris (22:02) What do mean? Listen, we have holiday stress attacking us all at this point. Some people actually put decorations out before Thanksgiving. John Pope (22:24) And Yes. Kasie (22:34) Those people are my people. Chris (22:36) I set you up, Victoria. Victoria (22:39) Yes, because you want to be Mr. Grinch over there and like don't want to put up Christmas decorations until after Thanksgiving as if we're skipping Thanksgiving. Nobody is skipping Thanksgiving. Nobody is skipping Thanksgiving when they put their tree up early. Chris (22:48) Yeah. John Pope (22:49) super. No short-stripped Chris (22:53) Okay. John Pope (22:55) Thanksgiving. Chris (22:56) Help me out here, John. You're not the pre-things crew. Victoria (22:57) But it's good John Pope (22:58) I think Thanksgiving Victoria (22:59) old days Christmas light. John Pope (22:59) is a holiday that is being ignored. ⁓ Thanksgiving is a wonderful time. They've even tried to replace it with Friendsgiving. Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving, we have so much to be thankful for. So, yeah. So, yeah. Chris (23:04) it. Victoria (23:13) Christmas one! Chris (23:15) All right. Let's just hold the Christmas stuff a little bit. But in all seriousness, it's the stress. You know, get wired and your in-laws are coming to town or you got to go see your mom and your dad and a divorced family or you got to have the financial pressures and stress. All of this stuff kind of goes on and you have to manage that. Victoria (23:26) You tell her. Chris (23:38) And honestly, when your limbic system begins to take over, it's again, it's really hard to think. Kasie (23:44) Yeah, I would like to make a statement here and not that I don't think it was meant to be a blanketed statement earlier, but I do want to point out that. Victoria (23:50) I'll say. Kasie (23:54) Just because you carry a diagnosis of anxiety or depression doesn't mean that you have to function there in a permanent way and cannot ascertain skills throughout the course of what you're going through to be able to have balance. You can still have really high functioning moments and really good resilient moments while also battling through some of the things you're experiencing. And that just because you have that diagnosis, it is not a sickness. Victoria (23:56) Thank you. Bye. I'll make John Pope (24:24) Casey, I Kasie (24:24) point. Victoria (24:24) me an easy one. John Pope (24:25) would say that anxiety is a natural state for most of us. I think to be anxious is to be human. there are moments in which we are depressed and there are some more so than others, but it's not something that has to define you. Chris (24:41) Totally and truly, I'm glad you didn't go too far with that, John, because here in a little bit, we're going to kind of play off of what we've been talking about lately. But let's go a little bit more into what happens when you overuse your intellect or you overuse your emotion. And it's really pretty simple. When you over intellectualize, you're basically suppressing your emotional system and you can actually become detached or rigid in the way that you think about things. You have too much emotion, then you have the opposite. you begin to have, because your emotions are driving the thing, you begin to have reactions, reactivity, overreactivity, impulsive behavior, inconsistencies in what it is that you're doing. You think of someone that has bipolar disorder, they are kind of up and down and you see a lot of the over-emotional because it's just wild. But I love your point, Casey. This is part of our entire career, right? When you have the affliction of these things, You have an added challenge, but it does not mean you can't overcome them. That's the whole nature of our show. John Pope (25:41) This is my Star Trek. Kirk, rather Bones and Spock. Spock is the intellect, very cool, calm and Bones is reactive McCoy. so and so that's something that's an illustration that's unique, both of them and be it in balance. And maybe that's the idea behind Kirk. Anyway, I'm sorry I go off on that. Chris (26:05) If you bring a Star Wars thing in here too, I'm gonna love it somehow. That's fantastic. John Pope (26:08) Okay. Well, there you go. That's another thing is that part of Luke had to remember Obi-Wan Kenobi because Luke was too much into his head, his own head in the original, the first Star Wars, which was episode four, I think. they Chris (26:24) Never your mind be on where you're at now, thinking says Yoda. ⁓ John Pope (26:28) Right. Yes. Yes. So there's kind of, yeah, it's an imbalance. So we have to have that balance. Chris (26:32) It's an end-to-end. So where do we want to go? Well, let's stay within neurology a little bit. The neuropsychology, where the prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, they're inverse. We've made that point. And I think what you can see here in a simple way is that when one of those two gets overactive, what basically happens to the other one? Does it get louder or quieter? Kasie (26:58) quiet. Chris (27:00) If you're highly emotional, you can't think. If you're highly intellectual, you're not feeling. John Pope (27:07) So when you get into an argument, and let's say one is a better debater than the other one in arguments, there's the thing where you can become tongue tied and you know what you want to say and you can't say it. The gates don't open. You're not able. That's right. Stage fright. Chris (27:22) Stage fright. You know, it's funny, I used to play a trumpet in high school and I guess my anxiety edge would take over particularly in performance and I would literally start shaking and I couldn't play very well when I was supposed to do a solo. So I avoided the hell out of solos. Like I wasn't the solo guy and other people would just jump on and like, bam, you they're in the middle of the field by themselves banging out the solo. My best friend in high school, Robert Barry, shout out to Robert. Man, he would bang the solos and he had the trumpet ability. He was first chair Casey, I was second. I never forgive him for that. Even when I was a senior, he was still first chair. Man. John Pope (28:06) I Casey was first cared about everything. Kasie (28:06) to the best of us. Chris (28:08) You just got a compliment, Casey! Kasie (28:10) Thank you, John. John Pope (28:12) You're welcome. Chris (28:14) So the chronic suppression of emotion can dull empathy and hinder problem solving. Chronic suppression of emotion doesn't, you know, it creates this imbalance that we that we're talking about. ⁓ Kasie (28:28) Yeah, I have a quick example there. You know, when I was working emergency room triage for a psychiatric provider, I was down in the ER in my job. was to assess patients that came in and go up to the seventh floor or wherever it was and present them to the psychiatrist to get to determine whether not they needed to be admitted to the hospital, right? So I'm triaging an ER and you know, lots of people come in, especially around holidays, like in the summer, in the dead of winter, like the ER is usually jam packed full of people that are having some pretty significant mental health issues. And I remember thinking to myself as I was going through this process that I got so rote and routine with question asking that we would get to questions about like, have you ever been sexually assaulted? And they would say yes. And instead of having an empathetic statement for that person, I would blow through that question, say, okay, and move on to the next question. Because I was solely functioning in a place of that this is the quota, this is what's needed, this is what's going on right, Chris (29:33) Hmm. Kasie (29:37) moment. So even in my role that requires empathy to be able to get people to respond, I was blowing through that because it was a chronic suppression of the emotionality of situations to where I wasn't even validating a person telling me something very personal and hard in their life. Chris (29:44) Hmm John Pope (30:00) you become aware of that? Was that brought to your attention or was it something that was the light bulb turned on when you were able to process it? Kasie (30:09) Yeah, the light bulb turned on. I don't know how many times I did that before I actually realized it. I would probably be embarrassed to know, honestly. But the light bulb turned on one time when I was walking from the ER, for whatever reason, to the elevator to go up to the site floor to be able to present the patient. And I said, what am I doing? I think there was actually an advertisement about inter-partner violence or domestic partner violence in the elevator. know, like if you see something, say something or call this number and and it just made me think and kind of snap out of that zone for a minute because I connected with what was being presented on that paper and and I thought I can't believe and just became really aware that I just blew through this question with this person when they literally told me that they had been sexually assaulted before. Chris (30:55) Now, John, that to me sounds like what you were playing around with a little bit ago, that Casey and her example was actually disassociated. It does, doesn't it? That's, you're like, go ahead. John Pope (31:04) Yeah. Kasie (31:04) Mm-hmm. John Pope (31:07) Yeah, detaching, yeah. They're not engaging. It's like the clutch, the wheels are spinning, but it's not going anywhere. Something's, it's not engaging. Chris (31:18) Right. First responders when they come on a scene are not disassociated like I think we arrived at. But Casey was in the ER when she was trying to process that one of her two levels of functioning was taking over the other one. You see. John Pope (31:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kasie (31:34) became desensitized to emotional pain. Yeah. Chris (31:36) Right. Right. And some of that might be a survival kind of element. Some of that might be, I need to be productive and engaged here to make the correct move. So the other emotional thing doesn't matter. system, look. I'm glad you used that Casey, because so easily your system clicks into these things. I want you to listen or hear that because this is really important. Like when you're engaged in a marital fight or you're engaged in a parenting situation, you're engaged with a work meeting, even these systems are in balance and you're having emotional intelligence or they become out of balance and whichever one is in charge, the other one settles down to almost nil. Casey was nil for the processing of that in that. John Pope (32:26) But I'm just, unless we're hard on Casey, or she's hard on herself, the fact is, is that she did see this and correct it. But she may have been spent, she may have actually did not know how to process it properly. And so she just, she just wore out. And so what she Chris (32:44) Okay, my point though, John, is yes, she did because she's awesome and she figured it out. Most people don't. Most people have no idea. And now when you're in that state and you're trying to parent your child, Victoria, if you're here with us still, I think you're coming in and out. Like, what happens when you parent out of fear? What happens when you parent out of guilt? What happens when you panic? John Pope (32:52) I Chris (33:09) in a situation where your child is struggling and whatnot, Like those are, evidently Victoria's not with us at the moment, those are challenges, right? John Pope (33:18) Yeah, go to Walmart at 11 a.m. there's mothers that's got three kids hanging on her and one of the kids moving around and she just with, you know, there's eyes everywhere that's there and comes out and in spanks the child or disciplines the child. And it's because Victoria (33:33) Get in the tub. John Pope (33:41) that there's a sense that there's no reserves, there's no sense of situational awareness. Chris (33:47) I'll tell you what, Victoria, how much does your son take your intellect out of the picture and your emotions are just engaged? I tell you, Aaron did that to me all the time. Victoria (33:59) Yeah, I mean currently my kid is potty training right now, so I feel like I don't know anything. Chris (34:07) Right. The point that we're really making is to see how easily and John and I, you and I need to come up with a quick example, I guess, because this happens to us all the time. It's happening to Victoria right now. It happened to Casey in the emergency department. You know, I mean, it's so easy. That's what I really want to drive home. It's so easy to have happen. And that means it's so easy in tough situations to lose your emotional intelligence. John Pope (34:33) Right. Chris (34:34) You know? Kasie (34:34) Yeah, and I think one of the big buzzwords right now that I see often a lot and I think it needs a lot more attention and we could do a whole show on it probably is compassion, fatigue, burnout, things like that. And it's happening across multiple disciplines, across multiple careers, across multiple employee employer situations, by just the state of which everything is in, right? So like the state of our government, the state of the world, know, things like that we've been inundated kind Chris, touched on this last time about how we're just inundated all the time through our technology and our devices and our medias and all that stuff. We don't disconnect. so. John Pope (35:10) We don't disconnect. Chris (35:13) I got mine too. Kasie (35:15) And so really, yeah, so we don't disconnect. And when we don't disconnect, we are really kind of just blowing through things that are really causing us stress in a lot of ways, just to kind of keep up with the rat race, so to speak. And when that happens, we're doing ourselves a big disservice because we're not slowing down enough to realize that these things are really having an impact on me. And then over time, that impact of just letting go of the emotional response, suppressing it, putting it in the barn out back is building, building, building, building, building. And then when a minor inconvenience happens, we wanna know why did I just blow up like that? or why did this really make me so upset with my spouse? Like we often say when we're doing couples therapy, it's never about the dishes in the sink, right? It's never the dishes, right? Like you're really not that upset because the dishes aren't done. It's a systematic undermining of that, yeah. Chris (36:09) Even go a little further. It is. Even go a little further, Casey. I just wanted to jump in to join you. How about having an affair? Kasie (36:18) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (36:21) Right? mean, that's not an immediate thing. Sometimes it is, but that's like you're in that state sort of chronically. You're not in a comfortable state in your marriage. You're struggling with this, that, or the other. And over the weeks and months of that, how many times do we have people sitting in our office saying, I have no idea how or why I had the affair. I don't know what happened. I didn't want it to happen. Kasie (36:22) Yeah. Yeah, you don't wake up in the morning and think, you know what would be a good idea today for me to go out and have an affair. Like, nobody's waking up to do that, no. Chris (36:49) You sure, Casey? Good, good, Sometimes I got a wonder, though. John Pope (36:58) So Kasie (36:58) Yeah. John Pope (36:58) there's actually a fear of intimacy. So you seek intimacy in another place or another face. And the thing is, is that you're avoiding the intimacy with your significant other that you really need to have. And it's scary. Kasie (37:15) Mm-hmm. Chris (37:15) So let's play this off into why this matters today, honestly. Casey, you were touching on that, right? You went right to it because this is my newest favorite topic because I think it's so important. just believe that it's something that we really, really need to get our arms wrapped around. And we took a deep dive on that with Lisa Dana. dot. Did I say that wrong? my gosh. Dot Dana. Hey, Yeah. Last week, we took a deep dive on that. John Pope (37:39) I missed that one Chris (37:41) yeah, John, had to, had, yeah, we did, sorry. But you got to listen to it. But no, because this was all over that. This is like, this conversation is an extension of that. Because what you were talking about, Casey, mean, you know, how much, how chronically, how deeply does the information age have our emotional system? Or does it trigger our intellectual system? There's a question. John Pope (37:47) Yes. Chris (38:10) I think an easy answer. We'd like to think it would make us rational people. Information. Does it trigger our emotions or does it trigger our intellect? Kasie (38:19) Well, I think it can be both, but I think it's when our emotions start overpowering our intellect, we start getting caught up in the crosshairs of being unable to separate facts from feelings. And that's when we get ourselves in trouble. Right, when we start accepting our feelings as sole facts in situations, that's when we start to see, I think, lot of divisive language, a lot of contempt of language, a lot of insults, because we run out of things that are actually factual to say, and we're just going on the emotions of what's, what? yeah. Chris (38:36) Yeah. Victoria (38:37) Thank you Chris (38:48) Let me, let me, let me jump in. I think you're being way too kind. You're being way too kind. Yeah, I can't take it. I can't sit with that one. I would like to think that we become intellectual and I think most people think they're being intellectual when they're having a political conversation with their next door neighbor, but they're not. They're not. I don't think the information is triggering our thoughtfulness. I don't think the information is triggering our frontal cortex to gather data. I don't find when people are reading on their phone, they're searching for information so that they can pull abstract thinking out and be open-minded into outside of their eco-chambers. No, I don't. I think you're being too kind, Casey. John Pope (39:31) So are we talking about when therapists are first learning about becoming therapists is that one of the things is to say, well, what am I going to ask now? What am I going to say now? And so they're thinking ahead so much. so there's not that one of the ideas is to be as dispassionate as one can be in order to truly Victoria (39:35) you John Pope (39:52) join with the client or the patient. But you're always thinking ahead at what you're going to say. And so... Chris (39:55) Probably. ⁓ I guess if we can, we got Victoria's son jumping on, because I wanted to ask you Victoria about that, right? What John's saying, if you're able, like when you're newer and you're thinking too much, do you lose something when you're a newer therapist? John Pope (40:02) until you get emotional. Victoria (40:11) about what maybe I don't know. not really focused right now because Lucas is whining in the bathtub. and so you're going to have to repeat that. Yeah, that might, don't know, but I guess I might've just proven your point. John Pope (40:24) That's proven our point! Chris (40:26) Heh! So John, what pruning reproving and how does Victoria deal with that as a young therapist? Kasie (40:34) Yeah. John Pope (40:34) Well, because she's not able to join with us as much as she would like to because and engage with us because and you had mentioned that earlier, Chris, when and just that he's got she's got all these things that are going on in with her and she's got her concerns and so she can't be as present as she would like to be. Chris (40:58) It happens that easily. And I feel like when you get a dopamine hit, Casey, because somebody pings you on your phone, or when you get a new article from QAnon and you start reading it deeply, or you start to develop a relationship with somebody overseas that you don't know and you're mixing cultures, or you even get radicalized with stuff. I don't think people are thinking, Casey. That's why I say I think you're being too kind. John Pope (41:00) It does. Kasie (41:22) I wouldn't disagree. I'm not saying that they're thinking. I think that what happens is a lot of what we talked about last time too, which is we get inundated with tailored technology towards exactly what we want to think about. So it eliminates the need for us to process anything else because now it's getting tailored to how we feel. know, like I'm looking up things based on how I feel in the moment or how I feel at the time. So now my social media pages, my videos, my news outlets, I'm getting articles that are tailored now towards how I personally feel about things. So I'm not getting a whole picture perspective. Chris (41:57) makes it all worth it. See ya. Kasie (42:07) So I am thinking, but I'm really thinking about more so how I feel instead of widening or broadening my perspective or thinking about there could be another perspective out there. Chris (42:20) And exactly, you're overtaken by the emotion. And again, when one of these levels is highly active, what happens to the other level of functioning? It gets very quiet. I mean, I literally get kind of frustrated these days when I just go to a restaurant. Kasie (42:32) It quiets down, yeah. Chris (42:42) or an ice cream shop. It's easy to say ice cream shops because I mean, I know kind of that I want ice cream, but I legit sit there and I have, you know, coffees just the same way. Like I have so many flavors and so many things that I could put in my coffee. I just want to order coffee, John. I just want coffee. You know, but I got to decide if I want Colombian, I want Sumatra, if I want Folgers, if I want raspberry, if I want caramel and all the other flavors and if I want it steamed milk, cold coffee, like, my gosh, man, I get stressed out. Now I can't even think what I want. It's wild. Kasie (43:17) Just ask me, I'll tell you. Chris (43:19) Tell me what I want. ⁓ And isn't that what AI does? AI is the newest realm in all of these practical realities and how this matters today. And people make no mistake about it. That's exactly what they're doing, y'all. Kasie (43:20) Yeah! Yeah. Chris (43:39) I was looking for a rucksack. Neil's going to appreciate this. I was looking for a rucksack and I started using ChatGPT to discern what kind of rucksacks are out there. What kind of item might I buy? Do I want one with weights in it? Do I want one with pockets in it? Do I want one with size, space? Do I want just one with no pockets and just a weighted vest? Neil, I didn't buy one because of that. Neil (44:03) No, just go to gorock.com, buy a rucksack that you want and then get your weight that you need that you think you can handle. It's not very complicated, Chris. I think your problem is you don't know what you want and you're not confident in those decisions. So when something else comes into it, it makes it a lot worse. So you just have to go and say, this is what I want. My rucksack is the 21 liter rucksack. I have a 10, 20 and 30 pound weight. I knew exactly what I wanted. I got it. Can I go get coffee? Kasie (44:31) Now just take that advice from Neil and apply that to all The problem is you don't know what you want. Chris (44:33) knew he would love this little segment. Neil (44:35) If you're confident in what you want, you're gonna be less emotional when it comes down to when you're stressed. Chris (44:43) This is so true. John, we're going to find an example for you, Victoria is in it as we speak. Casey had an emergency department, and I'm going to find one with you too, because I know that you get into this stuff, man. It just it can overtake our systems. John Pope (44:58) Yeah, get overwhelmed, obviously. I mean, I have been in an area that was very intense emotionally and with when I was in the military and it just, I could just get so overwhelmed by emotions that I froze. I wasn't able to to say anything wasn't able to be articulate. so anyway, I don't have a good example. I'm so perfect. Chris (45:34) Yeah. Sing your song again that you were singing before the air when we come on. Kasie (45:34) Yeah. John Pope (45:38) You know, I'm just too good to be true. I can't take my eyes off of me. I am like heaven to touch. I want to hold me so much. Chris (45:49) my goodness, Casey, it's we're losing control. You know, we are all in modern days feeling exhausted. We are feeling overstimulated. We are feeling a disconnection, a loneliness. We are feeling an anxiety level. And I just, I just do. think that that's, that's why this emotional level and this intellectual level balance that we're trying, which means Kasie (45:50) Yes, the Craner. Chris (46:15) in intellectual or emotional intelligence, you know, we're losing it. Like straight up, I think we're losing it. John Pope (46:22) So our EQs are going down. Chris (46:25) Yes, I fear as a human race, not just Americans, across the world, that our emotional quotient is decreasing. John Pope (46:30) Mm-hmm. So maybe that's one reason why the book EQ or that theory developed in the starting in the 80s and 90s is that as life was getting so much more complicated and overwhelming that the author found that this, I think, is it Goldman that wrote it? ⁓ Goldman for EQ, emotional quotient, there was a book. Chris (46:57) Who is it? Okay, yeah, I'm not familiar. John Pope (47:07) Okay. But the point is, that why did that become in our language? Because we were seeing that it was slipping away from us, our ability to handle things emotionally well and intelligently. Chris (47:24) Interesting, when was the copyright or when what time period? Kasie (47:29) Yeah, it's Daniel Goldman. Yeah. John Pope (47:30) I'm Samuel Goldman, right? When was it? What year was that? I think it's late 80s, right? There's also Darwin Nelson also wrote a book on emotional intelligence. And so he did a lot of his research in the 90s. Kasie (47:35) I'll say it's late 80s. I don't have the exact date on his first... Chris (47:51) I wonder how they knew that, what they were basing that on. I'm curious because, I mean, that's about the time that all this started, modern day kind of information age, John Pope (48:00) Well, I think it might be the Zeig-heist or whatever, I'm mispronouncing it. in other words, just sort of happened all at once. so somebody saw it and saw the connections, you know. Chris (48:09) Bam! I'm impressed. want to kind of maybe get a dig into that. That would be interesting to see what early signs they were seeing and how that played out because I think it has proliferated exponentially. John Pope (48:26) Yeah, exponentially. Chris (48:28) exponentially. Okay, real quick reference that I want to throw in here before we are losing time. know, the book Through Therapist's Eyes has got these chapters and I like to highlight a little bit of them, you know, because they apply in real time to what it is that we're talking about. So from the one on yourself, chapter one, chapter 33, realize change does not happen to us, it happens with us. And so really what you're doing in that chapter, I didn't realize it because I wrote it way before these things, but you're trying to integrate these things. You're trying to have the emotional intelligence. It doesn't happen to you. don't have to be afraid. It's with you so that you can have your frontal cortex and your limbic emotional system engaged at the same time. Casey, your point a while ago. John Pope (49:18) So you go from being passive to somebody that is active, because passive would be to us and with us would be active. So you have control, you reestablish control. Chris (49:22) Yes. Absolutely. People feel out of control, They're thinking things are happening to us all around because I didn't ask for the algorithm to give me a rucksack suggestion, but I'm pretty sure I've been talking about it. I'm probably going to have about five rucksack advertisements. John Pope (49:33) Mm-hmm. Kasie (49:46) Now you need them. John Pope (49:47) maybe we will too because it's coming up. because you mentioned, yeah. Chris (49:50) Sorry. Sorry, not sorry, because I need to buy one. the other one is in marriage. We were talking about marriage before. The through-the-therapist eyes, re-understanding your marriage, becoming your best as a spouse. Number 19, Chapter 19, you marry a partner, not a personality. Wow, right? It's a person. And the personality that's there is not what you need to be driven with, but the emotional reactivity. How much emotional reactivity do we get in marriage? Kasie (50:19) Quite a bit. Chris (50:21) a lot most days, even when you're newlywed because you're super excited and happy about this and I've got my person and all that stuff is just, whew. When you're in that infatuation stage, my gosh. It's like everything is about that person. It's like, can't stop. I'm in love, Casey. I can't stop thinking about Jimmy Sue, Sally Sue. Kasie (50:46) Yeah. John Pope (50:47) Peggy served. Chris (50:47) Right? Kasie (50:48) Peggy Sue. Chris (50:48) What's that? Eggy Sue, sorry, I got the name wrong. All right, so what are some practical applications? What do we do to have these two level of functionings operate in balance so that neither one is in charge and the other one is getting quiet? How do we really try to do that? John Pope (50:49) Peggy Sue, Everly Brothers. disconnect, detach from the screens and meditate, I would say. Prayer, for me, from my faith tradition, it would be intentional prayer and disciplined that way, and it would be the integration. And that way you could feel those feelings and not feel threatened, not experienced. and just let them go. That's one of the things I'm in the pain program, chronic pain program with the VA down here. that was one of the things that I've been working on in terms of meditating at least twice a day is to be able to take the five, 10, 15 minutes each time and just sort of say, okay, I'm one of the things that the instructor says is just let it hear that and you say, okay, I am stressed. I am feeling this pain and just not necessarily say this is status quo and I'm going to have to live with it forever, but that it's a reality and do it in a way that's non-judgmental and non- And you leave the guilt away, you leave the shame away, you leave the recriminations away and you just basically just kind of... Chris (52:26) John, you know how many times I hear people say, I suck at meditation? people are not good at it. And they feel like they're doing it wrong because their thoughts pop up or they just can't settle down. can't sit still. Are they? John Pope (52:31) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, thoughts are part of it. They're part of it! Chris (52:46) Yeah. Say more about that. John Pope (52:48) And he said, okay, I had this thought. You know, that's part of it, it's okay. Chris (52:53) Yeah, say more about that because I think people feel like, I'm doing it wrong. I don't know how to meditate. I can't sit still. I can't stay on one thought. My head moves around. I got anxiety. John Pope (53:01) If that's all that you can do at that time, that is all right. You're exactly where you need to be. And so what you do is you try to push up against that wall a little bit further, and you move the barrier out a little bit further, and you're able to, through discipline and through grace and without self-recrimination and through self-acceptance, is say, okay, this is where I am. and you give yourself the grace that I'm a little bit further along now. And so each time you can meditate longer and you can also, and you might have setbacks and you might say, okay, I've got this intrusive thought. that's interesting. I had an intrusive thought. So what? Go on. Chris (53:48) You know, if I could give an example of that or, or, you know, what I'm experiencing, Lisa would love this. If she's checking out the show, Hey, Lisa, yes, we're talking about you still. Right. I have started doing a little yoga. I'm very unconfident with it, but I'm getting better and better at doing it. And so Saturday mornings, I try to do just a little basic yoga thing to get, know, John, I, my hamstrings don't stretch, man. Okay. It's like, I, am not, I am not limber in that way, but you know what? I can sit with my legs stretched out in front of me, take my hands not at my knees, I can take them to my mid shin. And if I sit there for a little bit and I take a deep breath and I release and I release my breath, I can move my hands all the way down to my ankles. And then if I do that again and I sit for another minute and a half and I take another breath and I release and I release my breath, I can literally take my hands and get them down to my feet sitting straight with my legs on the floor. Right? Isn't that wild? That's all we want to do with her. John Pope (54:43) Yeah, yeah, ⁓ Kasie (54:47) But how are you gonna get up off the floor? That's always my question, given John Pope (54:51) Yeah. There's a... Chris (54:53) You kind of roll over and then you get your elbows involved. You kind of give a push somewhere and you kind of, you know, yeah, you get up. John Pope (55:00) The being has a, the Veterans Administration has a, has an app, it's called the Mindfulness Coach. And civilians can download it. It doesn't matter. It's on your Apple Store or your Play Store and just download it and start out at the very beginning and do the exercises. And a lot of them are seated and some of them are while you're walking or while you're lying down. But you are basically unplugging from the hecticness of the world where you get, you know, going to and fro with emotions. So. Chris (55:35) John, my best place is when I get into the woods. You if I'm stressed out or I a lot going on in my mind, I am going to go walk. Just walking in my neighborhood. I may do that when we're done with the show, actually, just to unwind, just to debrief, just to kind of let my mind settle down without anything in my ears. Just walking at nighttime is lovely dark outside. But if I get into trees, if I get into paths, if I get into trails or if I'm kayaking, dude, I'm just like I'm floating on the water. You know? John Pope (55:38) Mm-hmm. Chris (56:04) I would ask you, the listener, when's the last time this week, this month, today, when's the last time that you had a full hour and a half or an hour, maybe at least a half hour, right? Where you just had no distractions. You were praying like John was talking about, or I'm talking about being in the woods or on your bicycle. Runners know this. When you're running, I don't know how you can think about anything when you're running, to be honest with you, right? So I'll turn it over to you Casey. know you got a fantastic topic that you love so much. Internal resiliency is all about this, right? Kasie (56:42) Yeah, because I mean the truth is that a lot of our experiences are shaped by what has happened to us and then how we move forward and respond, right? And so because of that, everybody's zone of resilience, meaning the way we bounce back, the way we are able to take things in stride or just kind of be okay with the flow of life, it's at a different width for every person. And so the focus here when we're talking about balancing between emotional brain and rational brain is to how can we get our resiliency zone to be widened a little bit. Right? How do we make it a little wider? And to do that, what we really have to focus on are kind of what John was talking about. How do we become an observer of our thoughts instead of a judge of our thoughts? And I know that's a big difference there. And so that probably could be a whole show in and of itself, but we want to observe what we're thinking instead of being the judge, jury, and executioner of what it is that we're thinking. A lot of times, I think we Focus so much on wanting to be in control that we actually give away a lot of our internal control to situations other people big emotions and things that are happening around us and so Really trying to hone in on that. Yeah, what were you saying? Right, and so really trying to hone in on what is it that is within my internal locus of control Chris (58:06) And then we blame others. And then we blame others. Kasie (58:19) What is it that I can immediately have impact over by making small percentage changes in my life? And how do I respond to others in the process? And that in and of itself with coping skills, a good therapist obviously is a shameful plug for all of us. And really just being reliant on the fact that you are impeccably created to be a person that is resilient. And you've made it this far. Chris (58:37) Yay! Kasie (58:48) survived 100 % of the hardest days you have ever had in your life. Chris (58:53) That's a Casey quote. That's why I love you on this show. Say that again. Kasie (58:57) You have survived 100 % of the hardest days you have ever had in your life. John Pope (58:58) That's a good. Chris (59:03) man, that... That is a mic drop, John. Holy crap. I feel so proud of myself right now, honestly. I have survived 100 % of my hardest days. Y'all, I have had some hard days this last decade now, you know. You know? Yeah, that's beautiful. That's really beautiful. And John, you've had to move, you know? You had this whole... John Pope (59:05) Mic drop. I don't even want to try. Yeah. Kasie (59:19) Yeah. John Pope (59:23) Wow. We have. Yeah. Chris (59:28) upheaval and whatnot. I just think that you're right. We just give ourselves, we're so critical of ourselves. The insecurities, the human emotional experience, right, that we talk about. The insecurities just take over. One of the chapters in my book, the favorite title in my chapter is, Insecurities are like cancer to our spirit, or something like that. I didn't say it right, but like, you know, it's just cancer. They just drive us batty because we're just feeling and we can't just be John Pope (59:49) Perfect. Chris (59:57) What do you say? Just observe, John. Just observe your thoughts. John Pope (59:59) Right. Kasie (1:00:03) And let them float by like a cloud, like a little cloud. Chris (1:00:07) Those little visualizations are really, really important though. Yeah. It's just, I see that thought, that's okay. It goes away and a new one comes and you could just move with that. Listen, I'm on trails and that happens. Otherwise I'm just like silent and I literally can get to a place where I'm not thinking and just in the moment. And yoga does that a little bit too, because it's hard by the way. Right? John Pope (1:00:25) Yeah. Chris (1:00:32) Good stuff, good stuff. We need to taxi in a little bit. What kind of closing thoughts might you have? And then we'll do the shrink wrap-up. Closing thoughts or things unsaid? John Pope (1:00:40) I think Casey said it so perfectly. Yeah. Chris (1:00:42) Yeah. It really is a mic drop. Okay. So we have added a segment to the show, Neil. Get ready for the judgment. We have a judge, jury, and executioner named Neil Ruff. It's deep. It gets deep. We have a friendly competition at the end of our show. We call it the shrink wrap up. And all we do is we spend a moment to say what we thought of the show, how it worked, how it went. And Kasie (1:00:46) Yeah. Oh wow, that's a good deal. Chris (1:01:07) It's a summary kind of and Neil gets to determine which of the therapists will win this week's episode of the shrink wrap-up. Neil, we need to get like a music jingle thing for this man, I think. We gotta build this up. Kasie (1:01:19) Drink crap up, that kind of thing. John Pope (1:01:23) Thanks. Chris (1:01:23) just have Casey do that. Neil (1:01:26) I'll snip John Pope (1:01:26) Okay, Neil (1:01:27) it and pull the audio. John Pope (1:01:27) here's, yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go first, because, you know, Casey is the most, she's hyper articulate. So I'm kind of, I'm gonna do my best, huh? Okay. But we need to be in a balanced state. We need to have the intellect and also the emotional and it has to be a Chris (1:01:29) Yeah. You got her, John. John Pope (1:01:53) maybe an equilibrium that goes back and forth and sometimes the balance isn't perfect, but there is this area in the center that we can be in, where we can, it's a sweet spot where we are able to step outside of our deep agonizing emotions and yet also have, but also outside of just the rigid intellectualism. And it's a place where through reflection, through prayer, through journaling therapy, our feelings and self and thoughts are integrated. Chris (1:02:31) Perfect, nice. All right, Casey, I'm gonna get competitive with you. You have to close your eyes right now for a second. Just bear with me. She closes her eyes. Am I holding up number one or number two? No, one or two? Okay, then I have number two, so you go. Kasie (1:02:33) That was beautiful. three, ⁓ one. Okay. So yeah, to kind of piggyback off of what John is saying, really when we talk about understanding our rational brain and our emotional brain, we're really focusing on how to empower ourselves to have a more balanced, well-rounded life, right? This is not about fixing it. It's just about being present. And when we are in a place of presence, we are able to balance out what is going on around us, what is happening to us and through us, and how to balance that out with our emotional brain. emotional awareness is not weakness. It's honestly power in its purest form. helps us to make good rational decisions and it can help propel us forward into a future that feels less overwhelming and more empowering overall. So my encouragement and shrink wrap up tonight is this. One, check yourself before you wreck yourself and do it with love and kindness for you. This is not about being the judge. This is not about trying to It's simply about trying to connect. Chris (1:03:49) Okay. Yeah, it is. So I think there's a lot here that we've talked about tonight. A little bit of neurology, a little bit of biology. We've talked a little bit about the world around you. We've talked a little bit about mental health, anxiety, depression, conditions that are biological. I feel like there's a whole lot of sort of panic that we have about functioning. Kasie (1:03:51) Go Chris. Chris (1:04:16) And we hear these affirming TikTok messages. We hear these memes that come out. And there's a lot of cool things that are out there. You know what? Humans haven't changed. We are intellectual creatures that think through and do problem solving. We are emotional creatures that experience the power of the moment in the moment, only in the moment. And the reality of it is, though it seems hard sometimes, exactly what we're talking about is that balance. Allow the intellect to flow, Let your opinions be known. Allow the emotion to be present. Allow the emotion to be felt. That combination allows you to deal with your children more effectively, be more productive at work, engage your partner like partner should, like the husband that you want to be or the wife that you want to be, the friend that you will cherish. Get yourself out there. We can be balanced. We just need to be able to learn a little bit of newness, learn a little bit of skill. balance ourselves out with prayer or with the woods or with the boats or dancing or yoga. That is where you get into your sweet spot. Know that it's possible. We're here with you to help you figure out how to do it. Yeah Neil (1:05:25) Yeah, you guys are make this next year a pain. You guys are so good. You guys are taking it seriously. I actually have to like listen and pay attention and all this stuff make me work for it. But no, I think Chris, yours really spoke to me tonight. So Chris, I think you got it. Chris (1:05:29) Done. Yes! Kasie (1:05:42) Yeah, Chris! Chris (1:05:45) John, we can't let Casey win like three weeks in a row. That's my goal. John Pope (1:05:49) Okay, that's right. Kasie (1:05:50) I'm coming with zingers zingers and dingers baby zingers Chris (1:05:52) I she's got rhymes and rhythms and stuff, I appreciate that, Neil. Kasie (1:05:56) Yeah. Neil (1:05:59) Yeah, that was great. John Pope (1:06:00) He works for it. Chris (1:06:01) Alright, well guess I got to dub this week. John Pope (1:06:01) He let it flow. He had internal resilience. Zone got wilder. Chris (1:06:05) There you go. Kasie (1:06:06) He did. Your zone just got wider, Chris. Way to go. Chris (1:06:11) I'm gonna go take a walk and just let it settle into my brain. Listen, we do endeavor to figure this out together. We do believe this is important. Thank you for hanging out with us for the show. We appreciate you listening. a friend and we will see you guys next week. Be good, take care and stay well. John Pope (1:06:12) Yeah. Kasie (1:06:26) Take care of each other. John Pope (1:06:28) Thank you.