In Episode 346 – February 2026 Month in Review, Through a Therapist’s Eyes revisits three powerful conversations that all circle one core theme: how unseen wounds shape the self. In Episode 343, we unpacked why emotional abuse—chronic criticism, gaslighting, humiliation, control disguised as love—can damage a person’s identity just as deeply as physical harm, especially because it thrives in ambiguity and leaves no visible bruises. In Episode 344, we explored emotional neglect, the quiet absence of attunement that teaches someone their inner world doesn’t matter, whether in parenting, marriage, friendships, or even self-relationship. Then in Episode 345, we began breaking the silence around male sexual abuse and sex trafficking, challenging cultural myths, examining how trauma rewires the nervous system, and asking whether survival responses like shutdown, anger, or hyper-control have been mistaken for personality. This month’s review brings these threads together with practical questions and clinical insight, inviting listeners to reconsider what abuse really looks like—and how healing begins when what was hidden is finally named.
Tune in to see February Month in Review Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
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Episode #346 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello and welcome to another edition of Through a Therapist's Eyes. This is February the 26th and we are looking at episode 3-46. Neil, are you proud of me that I didn't say 2-46? Neil (00:15) very proud of you. Chris (00:17) Last show I was all into the 200s and I shorted us out a couple hundred and a half shows I guess. I don't know what was going on with me man. We are doing the February month in review and this is a really good review. I think that you're gonna enjoy this because the shows that we had were really pretty high impact shows particularly honestly the last one we did episode 343 emotional abuse versus physical abuse. Why damage is just as severe. And then we did episode 343 and transitioned into emotional neglect in relationship signs effects and how it impacts mental health. And then you got to check out 345 the full episode. We're going to try to do it justice, but I don't think we can to review episode 345, male sexual abuse and sex trafficking, PTSD and recovery. And that was a part one. Part two, you're going to have to wait on until next week because Kyle (01:10) Mm. Chris (01:12) We had a nice long conversation with Dr. John King who has an incredible and powerful story about his personal experiences as a child with sexual abuse and I tell you what, that just knocked my socks off. was, I don't know, Neil, Kyle (01:25) you Chris (01:26) am I crazy to think like that was one of the better shows I think we've had? Is that a fair statement? Neil (01:32) That was an amazing show. mean, him as a guest and just what he brought to the table and everything. And you really need to check out the next show because the recovery side is just amazing too. So go hear his story, what he did and then in the next week come back and hear about his recovery and what he overcame and where he is now. Chris (01:46) Yeah. Yeah, so this is through a therapy site where you get personal insights about mental health and substance abuse in your car or home, but knowing this is not the delivery of therapy services. Look, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. So we do try to disseminate information about mental health and blow up stereotypes and myths. On the month in review, we have our Month in review panel, which is Mr. Neil Robinson. You heard him already out behind the curtains. How you doing today? Neil (02:28) Doing great, how are you guys? Chris (02:30) Yeah, it's been a long one. I've had a long couple of days, I'm not gonna lie. And then we got Kyle King, he hangs out with us on the end of the month, last week when we do these month in reviews. How are you, sir? Kyle (02:41) Doing well. I'm like you. It's been a long week already. Chris (02:44) kind of been a long month. Yeah, I had I'm one day post birthday so I like I like worked until eight o'clock last night closing the month and everything I was like ⁓ geez you know Kyle (02:55) ⁓ Can you believe two months have already gone by? Chris (02:58) No, man, I'm hitting March in like a minute. That's nuts. So this is, let me see, what else do I like to say? Your job is to subscribe, click the buttons, the YouTubes, the reviews, five stars, all that good stuff. Listen, we really do try to help you out. We do this free, charged with our time and we ask that you refer a friend. We're looking for YouTube subscribers, that type of a thing. Kyle (03:01) I know. Chris (03:23) Am I correct in saying, do I remember correctly? Need to check my show notes. We have a celebration of three people, I think. We do. Wait, yeah, we do. We got Q Queenie777. Hey Q, welcome to the Thru Therapist Size. We got Miss Kim Rogers. And none other than Mr. Travis Durkey. Welcome to the Thru Therapist Size thing. So we had a big week with three new YouTube members. Tell somebody, guys. We need to be found. We need to help more people. Kyle (03:33) Okay. Chris (03:50) I'll stand by the clinical work that we present and what we do. Contact it through therapistize.com. It's a good way to interact with us. Kyle (03:56) you Chris (03:57) We do YouTube lives usually on 6 15 to 6 30. ⁓ And that is a great way to contact with us, hang out with us. And we like to embed that into the show if we can. So we are going to launch with Mr. Kyle King starts out a segment with, what do we call this? Down the rabbit hole with. Kyle (04:17) You know, have a home. Chris (04:18) Mr. Kyle King, this is something that is hopefully mental health related in some regard, a current event, a thing that's happening. But he takes us down a little bit of a rabbit hole and we have fun talking about it. So what you got this week, man? Kyle (04:22) Thank ⁓ Well, maybe not a current event, but definitely something that's coming up. It's related to springtime, you know, as nice warm weather is hitting North Carolina. I'm enjoying it. ⁓ It got me to thinking as I'm sitting here looking at my bird feeders on the camera, because we got this camera bird feeders, and here's this nice, beautiful cardinal. And I'm thinking, like, OK, is there any studies that have been done for things like bird watching or trying to Chris (04:38) Er. Kyle (04:57) understand how birds can relate to humans and all those and there's actually been a bunch of it done that way. And it's just amazing some of the things that I'm looking into. You just something as simple as the health of the colors of the male cardinal because you know the male is that big bright red color and the female is not as bright red but it's it's that red you know the red of it can Chris (05:18) Hmm. Kyle (05:26) signal very healthy. They're getting the right nutrients. They're healthy. They're getting, doing all the right things. it, how, no, I, know, you know, I had no idea there was different colors of red with a cardinal and there is. So, but when, we think about, you when it translates to a human, you know, the cardinal is very authentic. Chris (05:35) thought it was just a sex thing. It did! A bird do it thing. Kyle (05:56) in the color, in the way they are. Us as human, how are we expressing authenticity? Are we expressing it through fashion, through art, through personal projects? And if we do something like that, how does that impact us mentally? Something just as simple as that can lower social anxiety, bring satisfaction into your life. Even something, the song the bird sings, it just, It's unreal as I started reading through all this. And this is like the nih.gov. Just a song the bird sings when they sing it, they're safe. There's no outside factors messing with them. There's not any danger. But us mentally as humans, guess what? We have so many distractions around. We have so many things that can increase our anxiety. And If we think about that, we think about just that owning something that we can watch, we can listen to. We lower our anxiety. We improve. ⁓ But I think it goes back to, ⁓ you know, just stop and smell the roses. Because if we pay attention more to some of the things that they do. Chris (07:00) this why Neil's skin is so white and light? that what's happening, Neil? Sorry, I interrupted. Neil (07:04) No, that's my Polish root. That's okay. Kyle (07:20) You know, even something as simple as mating, you know, they, typically mate for, you know, they're, they're very monogamous. And the, one of the things that, you know, one of the studies did is just that partnership. We talk about it all the time in here. We have to have somebody to partner with maintaining close friends, building team activities, increases oxytocin, you know, reduces loneliness, stronger my storm. All of these things kind of combined together just to build our mental health up just by simply watching what they do. And even by simply watching them, it can reduce your stress. Chris (08:03) So are you saying there's like a correlation between birds and humans in texture and color and whatever and all? what's the connection? Kyle (08:06) There it is. There is. Yeah, there is correlation because, know, back to the color. They are, if you look, take a look at the color. That color is strong. That color is something that defines them. What defines us as a human are clothes, what we do, how, you know, maybe what art we do. But we want to build that, you know, that authentic feeling. just like that red cardinal does. And that's kind of what they were, you know, the studies have shown is that as you start to express yourself as that red cardinal, that red, that bright red versus a dull red, it can reduce your social anxiety. It can give you a higher satisfaction in life and it gives you an identity. So there's that mental aspect and You know, that's the one thing that one of these studies has shown is like in just that particular example, the social media, it encourages curated personas and you don't, you can look at it two different ways, right? Chris (09:23) You mean to tell me those beauty filters on Facebook are bad? Kyle (09:29) Right? So see, these are the kinds of things that we can correlate just a simple thing like the red color along with many other things. And trust me, there's a whole list of things I found about this. I was very enlightened as I started diving down this rabbit hole. I'm like, I never would have thought we could compare ourselves to a bright red cardinal and all the things that it could list. And how is like Wow, that kind of correlates to human life because of this factor and this factor. It's really wild to see. I mean, just something, like I said, the song, reducing your stress level, finding that quietness. And that's your, we don't have a lot of that because we have so many mental distractions in front of us. The screen, you know, going out in traffic, walking down the street, listening to all of those things. how we cannot quiet our mind, but when they start to sing, that's something that they use to quiet their mind, that they're safe. Chris (10:31) I love this rabbit hole honestly because that's one of the things that I do for self-care. I've kind of gotten a little bit out of the habit but Saturday morning for me is always like get my cup of coffee, go out to my back deck, I just sit down and I've got some bird feeders and some stuff that I look around and so this is one of the things that I do. ⁓ And it's also, I'm laughing inside because I woke up yesterday, just yesterday, and I woke up early and the sun was kind of coming up and I was kind of whatever. And I mean to tell you, the birds were going crazy, Kyle. It's like they all come from up north and they just went nuts. mean, they were just singing, man. I was like, what an awesome way to wake up, Yeah. Kyle (11:06) Exactly. Neil (11:12) It's all fun and games to have a mockingbird out of your window chirping at 2 a.m. In the morning my wife legitimately was gonna go get go buy a gun just to shoot it if it if it happened one more time but But yeah, it's it's really cool to see the environment of the birds when they're feel safe and you hear them singing and you see the different interactions there was a lot of like English blue wrens in our neighborhood this year, which is really really pretty to see because they're like that light blue with that orange belly and so yes Kyle (11:15) Hahaha Neil (11:40) Seeing the birds out there, my wife's aunt always had their bird feeder. We'd out and we'd always sit and talk about the birds. And it's just, it's such good to have that nature connection too on top of everything else. Kyle (11:51) Yeah, and if you watch them, one of the things, another piece of it too, is like if you watch their motions, ⁓ you know, they're very gentle. They're very, you know, on purpose. And yeah, I think for us, you know, we have so many, so many things that we're distracted by. the computer, the phone, whatever, the social media aspect. And it increases our stress. It does not reduce our fatigue. It creates burnout. that's where something, the correlation there between the animal versus the human factor, they're a lot less stressed than we are. Let's put it that way. Chris (12:39) funny you're tempting me with my newest favorite topic you know the the the intact increased rapid pace of technology changing and and dramatically changing humanity I think it's most most challenging challenge humankind has had in the history of humankind I really I really am believing that so you know what's funny Neil you can't fake this this dude loves going down to rabbit holes I love that you fit with this baby Kyle (12:49) Mm-hmm. Okay. Chris (13:05) You can't fake it. is something that you do this regularly and naturally and normally, don't you? Kyle (13:11) I just pick it, I just look at something on it, huh. All right, let's think about that a little bit. It's different. Chris (13:14) I love that. That is very cool. So, but so just to be clear, we're not talking about skin texture or clothing and all that kind of stuff as like the Cardinals are. So Neil is just as healthy as the rest of it. That's, that's totally true. Right. He says, yes. He says, yes. Good stuff. Yeah, man. Listen, self care, just so you know, right. From a, from a clinical perspective, I talk about this ad nauseum in, in, counseling with people all the time. ⁓ Kyle (13:22) No. Neil (13:29) Yep. Chris (13:44) I define it as fun, relaxing, enjoyable activities that aren't self-destructive in any way and that aren't work-related tasks. I call this the cornerstone of mental health. If you don't have the ability to kind of distract yourself from the reality and then come over here to relax and then plug back in, this can be five minutes in length, it can be five weeks in length. You can spend thousands of dollars or no money at all. Self-care. Kyle (13:47) Okay. Okay. Chris (14:09) I mean, it's not even negotiable. mean, I will spend an entire session if somebody's struggling with this idea, you know, whether it be because they have clinical anxiety or just the regular run of the mill all of our lives, as Kyle, saying. So self care is, is not a negotiable. It's an absolute requirement. Think of at least three things that you do to really check out. You know, I watch, I watch sports. got, I'm into a good book right now, Endurance, talking about shipwreck and these people that survived. Kyle (14:19) Yep. Chris (14:39) I do bird watching. I get on trails. You you get me on a golf course, you Kyle (14:43) Yep. Chris (14:45) know, once or twice a year. That's kind of cool, Kyle. We're due, right? Kyle (14:48) Yeah, that's right. Hiking. Yeah, I do. I do the hiking. Of course, from a bird perspective on the golf course, I have that crow that's mocking me every time I tee off. you know. Chris (14:58) Yeah, there is that. Did you ever hit him? Have you tried? Kyle (15:02) No. Hit the ball or hit the bird? No. Chris (15:06) Bad the ball with the bird with the ball. Yeah, that's what I was that's what I was going after All right. Let's let's launch in a little bit. So we got episode 341 that we did a few weeks ago Emotional abuse versus physical abuse why the damage is just as severe ⁓ The three questions that we had you think about is how do we recognize abuse when there are no visual injuries? And then secondly, why is emotional abuse so often minimized or dismissed by victims and others? And then what happens to a person's sense of self when emotional abuse is chronic or persists over time? Now, I want to say something from the get go in on this particular topic is that, you know, we. We have accomplished breaking down stigmas and stereotypes to the extent that people will talk about these things. And I love that. But people are using like our clinical words and just sort of generalizing them. And this is one that happens a lot with. Interestingly, it doesn't happen with emotional neglect, which we talked about as well, physical abuse or sexual abuse. It's for some reason, right? Kyle, I'm curious from your non-clinical mind as we talk about this, right? For some reason, am I wrong? People have picked up on the use of this word and just everybody's in emotional abuse. Does that sound fair from your perspective just in the world? Kyle (16:31) ⁓ would 100 % say that. ⁓ And, you know, I think about this and, you know, I know it's this could be, ⁓ you know, very, very true in a real, in just a normal relationship, you know, ⁓ but, know, I think as even go into the business side of it, you know, as a manager, ⁓ at a company, you know, this is something that I am very cognizant of. I don't want to. belittle anybody. I want to coach them up. want to empower them. want to grow them up in their career. I say this all the time in just in the corporate world that people don't leave jobs, people leave people. And if I'm constantly belittling somebody or if I'm constantly writing their tale, then guess what? I'm not doing my job as a manager. I'm not doing my job to help them emotionally. I'm not doing my job to grow them. And I have been in situations where I've had very emotional employees that I've had to deal with. And it is a challenge. it's, you know, every single one is different in how you deal with them. And it's just like any normal relationship, whether it's friends or whether it's spouse, every single relationship that you deal with in everyday life is different in how you deal with it. You know, that person, you never know what they're going through. And sometimes, you know, you got to take a step back when you're, when you're having that conversation with them. And just really just listen a lot, a lot of times. And, you know, for, I think it's very impactful in the word you say, ⁓ you know, in everyday life, because those people that are already at that emotional, I guess, cliff, you know, you could really push them off of that with your words. And so it's, it's, no, it's a big thing for me. Chris (18:32) So two things. First of all, I'm really glad you did what you did. And what I'm referring to is maybe you can read just a little bit down. Neil, his head, he was like, he was like looking at like his head is coming from nowhere. Kyle (18:38) Yeah. Yeah. I did just, saw it myself. Chris (18:45) ⁓ the other thing though is, what I'm getting at is like, I follow everything you said. I think you're, pretty on point. You know, it's almost like, ⁓ you know, I want you to be aware of all of those things, Kyle. ⁓ but I want to, it's just a quick word of caution about operating out of fear of executing emotional abuse or, claiming that that's happening when. when it's not like I think Casey kind of pointed out it's not because somebody just was rude to you for a day or something was kind of going on. There's a different level here that we're talking about. I mean, I've gotten to know you well over a little bit of time, Kyle, and I don't think that you've been emotionally abusive. I would be surprised. Although I don't know you well enough to say that. I've not seen you interact with these employees, but I know you care, I know you're kind, and I know you've been rude sometimes, but that's not emotional abuse. There's a there's a very big difference. You you listen to the show. I'm curious to spin over to you to see like how I mean, you follow what I'm saying. And we talked about it on show. And so how would you how would you mark in your mind having listened to us and being a part of it and your own thoughts of like what what in your mind, what would elevate it to such a level? Right. Neil (20:11) I mean, really, I think it goes back to the chronic. To me, emotional abuse is more that chronic over and over and over over kind of situation, right? And I think you have that, I just realized you had that in the notes, but that's something that I think more, because there's a difference between one time situation or have someone's having a bad day to, every time I talk to this person, they're always going at me, right? I think that's the hardest. That's, I think that's where it draws the line, right? It's the difference between having anxiety and like an anxiety, anxious moment and like really having anxiety, you know, being emotionally abused versus that person just doesn't know how to regulate themselves. And they just said something hurtful, right? But every time it comes across, I think that's the biggest part that, that I would say with everything is the continual repeated, you know, basically verbal. Chris (21:01) Yeah. Neil (21:09) emotional abuse that they go through, right? ⁓ Chris (21:12) It's the full relationship. It isn't a moment. This really bothers me what I'm about to say, but I'm going to be genuine and say it. ⁓ I have unfairly been critical to my children. And that pains me, man, because I don't want to be a critical person. But I say that in part one to take accountability, because I'm not perfect at all. But that is a very different reality than than this chronicity that you're differentiating with Neil. Yeah, like I would very clearly say I've not been abusive to my children, even though I've done that. The difference is when you have a highly critical person in your life, I've come to see in my work with people that that is like so crushing to the spirit of a person that they really take that with them, which leads to one of the main things that we were talking about with like core assertion that Kyle (22:03) Okay. Chris (22:11) There's a targeting of the person. There's damage Kyle (22:15) you Chris (22:15) to that person. There's the self. And when you receive criticism after criticism after criticism on a chronic level, just, it destroys the spirit of a person. Down to a core level, that's abusive, right? I that's a very big difference than having ⁓ a high conflict relationship with a person or getting loud during a fight. Those are not good things. I don't want to be misconstrued, but when you get into the abuse level, man, it's just so crushing and there's no bruises, there's no bangs, there's no hurt spots or cuts. It's just, it invades into that person's psyche and it's devastating. Kyle (22:57) Well, but no bruises, not physically, but definitely emotionally, Chris (23:02) ⁓ metaphorically it bruises the soul. Yeah. Kyle (23:04) Right. Cause I mean, if I'm constantly coming to somebody and I'm being negative, I'm just saying, Chris, that shirt, I really don't like, you know, what if I'm, if I'm constantly saying that to you, what are you going to say? You know, look at me every time you look at me, you're going to think, gosh, am I, am I really dressing up for him? Right. Am I doing the right thing? Right. Exactly. Yeah. 100%. And you know, it's just something as simple as that really bruises the ego. Um, Chris (23:22) I'm gonna start believing it. I'm gonna start believing it, yeah. Kyle (23:34) Yeah, it happens. I see it a lot with people. Chris (23:37) Yeah, it's brutal. And so we're talking about, you know, these things that create intimidation, you know, when kids are fearful of their parents or, know, Kyle, you're talking about managing people. mean, you know, somebody may perceive something different and become fearful. But when you have a pattern where people are very reactive to you or they're walking on eggshells or they just don't know. how to take you or they're they're dreading interacting on this particular issue because it's just all of those things are indicators of like whoa something's more here than what than what we want to be okay with. Kyle (24:05) Yeah, we won't get into politics. mean, know, how that can impact people. I mean, it's very true. Chris (24:21) that. Yeah, it's it's it's it's and it is it's crushing on a macro level just as much as a micro level. know, whole whole cultures. mean, let's just say, you know, with with the. I'm trying not to think of racial issues as black and white, but you know, the Indians, mean, you when when when we're we're just crushing to their whole culture, you know, when I was a kid, I remember this phrase Indian giver. And I said that out loud as a young adult and somebody like crushed me on it. was like, well, I didn't even know I said I didn't know I was ignorant. But that means that that is a that is a it just crushes the whole culture when you when you when you develop a huge stereotype like that with a whole group of people. So you're right. This could be this can be on a macro level just as much as micro. Kyle (24:57) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chris (25:12) You know what else stuck out for me on that show? But you on the spot a little bit. Neil (25:17) ⁓ think it goes back to, think the other part that's interesting that got talked about is, when you look at the victim, you look at what goes on that's constantly emotional abuse. You start thinking about, you start thinking about how, how I can, it becomes more about how you, what you need to change to, because of like you, we talked about a second ago, when you keep hearing the safe stuff over and over again. you start believing it and then you start trying to change yourself because you start putting their critical comments or their abusive comments, they become reality to you. ⁓ My mother-in-law, she talked about there since she grew up, she didn't want to wear certain clothes because no one liked what she wore. She was kind of a hippie, right? She was the hippie of the family. Kyle (25:49) Mm-hmm. you Neil (26:05) And you know, so she constantly changed the way she did things because of that one thing. And I'm at this point, I'm like, well, everyone who criticized you has one passed away now. So one, you need to move on from that part. But it's still the sadness of like, she changed her life because the critical people, whether they meant to or not, or whatever's going on, there was still that same emotional abuse. And that's kind of putting it lightly the other stuff she's gone through. But it's just the reality of it, right? When you keep hearing the same thing over and over again, it becomes true to you and then you start internalizing it and you start figuring out how do I change myself? Because this person doesn't like her because they think this, this kind of stuff. I think that's a part that you have to understand. Chris (26:51) key component. Yeah, it's a key component that indicates it, Yeah, and know, we have, I want to give like kind of an example just to kind of demonstrate sort of how insidious this can be because, you know, when we're talking about these elements of abuse, it's like, it can be framed in different ways. Like, hey, I'm just being honest with you or I'm just, I have high standards. That's why I'm critical of you or I'm having tough love is another one that's in parenting. This is, that's a crusher. Neil (26:56) Mm-hmm. Kyle (27:05) Okay. you Chris (27:20) I'm just exercising tough love or various things like this. When it begins to change somebody into a negative way, that's a problem. And Neil, we know of a really good example, I think. I feel pretty confident that our mutual friend wouldn't have any trouble sharing this. Would you agree in what recently happened with business? Neil (27:40) I think we can keep it wide open, kind not only Target, but I think it's a great example. Not going into specifics, but yeah. We have a guy who started a business and he had his employees that came in with this new business. after, how long has it been? Six months, nine months, a year. Chris (28:01) Yeah, was like a year. It's been riding for a year. Neil (28:04) It's really sad to say because you know you talked to him because when he first started the business he was like, I'm gonna open five of these. It's a great franchise that he's gonna be great and Literally, what was it two months ago? You asked him like how's it going? What do you think my expansion? He's like like dude, I'm I'm I'm done with this one, His employees just wore him down. There was a really toxic one There was an unproductive one. There was kind of the third one right there were three but the And it's really kind of interesting to see this guy is a really positive guy. So all of a sudden to see him just get drained on our meetings and our calls, was really... Chris (28:41) diminishing. Diminishing. Neil (28:46) And it was just so, but the bright side is now he has new employees, basically cleaned house. He has brand new people and his, his attitude, his, the light is just back in his, in, our conversations. And so, and once again, this was a gradual over the course of a year, you start realizing it. There were some warning signs like four months ago with one of the crazy people that worked with them, but it wasn't like, but you just don't realize it. And he even realized after the fact it's like, Dude, I've been like literally abused by these employees. Kyle (29:18) Mm. Chris (29:19) I mean you wouldn't think that but like in also not that it matters, but this is a big dude This is not a small fellow, right? Right and and and and it just It was something that I don't think that he could talk about He didn't really make mention of it. And in fact, there was even a mention of like look I you know I didn't even realize this was happening and that's that's that what I'm trying to drive at is is this is the insidious nature the chronicity of it the the overpowering, the changing self. Neil was right. mean, it was a complete business change. So this happens in the workplace. This happens with parenting. This happens with marriages, of course, ⁓ in lots of different contexts than, like we said, on a macro level. with all of these things, especially two, it's just so hard because of the shame to let anybody know. We didn't even know this was going on with our very close friend until like Kyle (29:56) ⁓ Chris (30:18) He was really deep, far into it. Because I'm willing to bet that had started to really be a drain before the four months that we knew of it. Does that sound fair, Neil? Yeah. And you don't even know it's doing it yourself. You're not even aware of your own. It just begins to happen. Right? Kyle (30:34) Right. Neil (30:42) And I think the important thing to think about too is I know Kyle, you have the importance of a manager or supervisor who, you know, over the employees, you know, the people that they're over. It goes the other way as well. Like you think about, I'm thinking like some of my teams at Bendit and I think about how there are certain times where you get one or two people that end up kind of controlling the situation and then they kind of get the rest of the team to go after the manager. Kyle (30:52) Mm-hmm. Neil (31:06) And I'm thinking about the, like at one place I'm like, now they kind of look back and Chris (31:06) Mm. Kyle (31:08) you Neil (31:09) I'm like, yeah, I kind of feel bad for our manager because the way the team kind of treated him and it's kind of like, it's those things. it works both ways, right? Even those in a power position. Well, yes, they can easily affect the, their people they're under, but it works the same way. If you get a group of people together, you're basically emotionally abusing someone that's above you, right? It's that same idea. That's why you also don't have more than three kids at one time because they'll, they'll have to you again. Kyle (31:14) Yeah. So. ⁓ Chris (31:35) The parents getting abused! Neil (31:35) team up against the pair. But that's a nother whole. Chris (31:38) ⁓ Neil (31:40) for sexual abuse. Kyle (31:40) Which happens. Chris (31:42) You know, it does actually. How many stories have I heard about parents that have an alcoholic or drug-affected ⁓ kid, son or daughter, by the way, right? It's wild. Let's move on to time purposes and combine this with the second show that we did, which is in a lot of ways the same stuff. no, no, wait. First of all, ⁓ we started a new segment, Kyle. I'm not sure if you've heard that. Kyle (31:45) Yeah. Chris (32:11) Have you stuck in with the practical questions section? Segments that we do. Yeah, you've heard those. I'm enjoying those. And so I kind of felt like I might want to do that, you know, when we're when we're reviewing the shows. So ⁓ here goes. This is ⁓ what we do at the in the regular show through the through the month is we all take a turn. The therapist, Victoria, myself, Casey and John, we all take a turn and we we offer you actually practical questions as though. Kyle (32:15) Yes. Yeah. Chris (32:40) you know, we're the therapist speaking through the screen to you. So when it relates to emotional abuse, and I'm working with you, if you've experienced anything like this in in session, I may ask you like, you know, to look at this from a different perspective in the relationship that you're having in the experiences that you're having with this person. If you were to kind of go out of body or zoom out 30,000 foot, look down at yourself and what's happening. If this were happening to someone else, someone else that you care about, someone else that you're you're really Kyle (33:01) . Chris (33:09) protective over or that you love that you you really feel fondly of Would you call that abuse yourself looking at that? That's a hard thing to do just take a different perspective and turn that around and watch Kyle (33:22) Hmm. Chris (33:25) Yourself as though you're somebody else and then wonder if you would really actually Get to the place of being able to call that because that can indicate something Please pay attention to what's going on so that you're not alone with Moving on, that's the practical question. Moving on to episode 344, emotional neglect in relationship, signs, effects, and how it impacts mental health. You can kind of see a theme, right Kyle? Kyle (33:54) Yep, so far. Chris (33:55) ⁓ Three questions that we asked is have you ever felt invisible in a relationship? my goodness that we talked about as being one of the most painful things people can experience. I learned that at a conference. Someone taught me that that is not losing a son. It's not dealing with a tragic airplane crash. It's when you're invisible. It's like you're not even worthy enough for me to. acknowledge that you're here. So anyway, have you ever felt invisible in a relationship, even if you weren't being attacked? What is the difference between emotionally harmed and being emotionally unseen? And did you grow up learning that your emotions were too much or not important? You you talk too much or you do too much, you're too busy, you're too something or other critical. These are These are really signs of like, wow, you know, I mean, this, this may be rising a little bit more into the realm of neglect, which is a, which is a weird, a weird word. ⁓ you guys think about neglect. I'm curious, like physical abuse, talk about domestic violence. talk about sexual abuse is really something that, that is on the rise of awareness, particularly with the Epstein case and whatnot. emotional abuse is thrown out so regularly and repeatedly, flippantly sometimes. I don't know that people think even about neglectful forms of abuse. Neil (35:36) I mean the one thing think about when you say that and this kind of got me they literally have charges when you have You know children neglect, right? So it to me if there's if there's charges against someone for neglecting your child then there has to be a seriousness seriousness to the idea of a neglecting and I think in a relationship with its card because When you neglect a child The seriousness of death right because they can't take care of themselves. But when it comes to your partner Chris (35:43) Yeah. Yeah. Neil (36:05) in relationship, if you neglect them, like what does that really, I mean, it gets downplayed because you just don't, it's just another adult, don't deal with it, right? Chris (36:15) Mm-hmm. That's a good point. That's a really good point. Go ahead. Kyle (36:16) Maybe. Neil (36:17) but it's Kyle (36:21) Maybe. To your point, I mean, it could be very simple. I mean, what about the workaholics, right? Are they neglecting their spouse? You know, they're never there. They're never home. They're always away. They're always traveling. You know, what does that lead to from a neglect emotionally, emotional neglect standpoint, right? It makes that other person want for that. You know, if they have friends, maybe that's enough. But if they don't have friends, they could reach outside the relationship. So it could create a whole different, you know, kind of problems just by having that emotional neglect. Chris (36:55) Well, know, absolutely. I was, my mind was going on a little journey, Neil, with what you're talking about. And you're right there, Kyle, in the sense that we really do tend to see this probably over proportionally with domestic violence or Department of Social Services, or we call it different things through the states around the world. You've got agencies that protect kids. And we also, Kyle (37:14) You Chris (37:23) have a lot of the same thing for the elderly. There's elderly abuse as well that is neglectful. But you know, we don't really think about it. I probably am not, if I'm being truly transparent and honest, which I require of myself, I'm hoping I can do that as I hope people can do that with me and my work. I don't look at this probably enough in marriages, to be honest. I don't assess that or my brain doesn't really kind of dial into like your example, Kyle, ⁓ a workaholic, which means you're really, really dialed in and paying extra energy and service to what you do for money for work. And meanwhile, your spouse is at home, like alone. And then you come home and you're like, you know, barely a word because you're exhausted. And again, the chronicity. Day in and day out where the spouse begins to feel like I'm just not worthy of your time. Kyle (38:27) A roommate. Feels like a roommate, not a partner. Chris (38:34) And I think even a little bit more than that, yeah, there is that where we grew apart and the roommate thing, but there's a, don't want to recognize you. You're not important enough for me to invest in it. Roommates, you're cordial, you're engaging. And I feel like there's sort of another level where we wanna get to because it's, I mean, it's not neglectful just to be a hard worker. Kyle (39:02) Great. Chris (39:02) or to be busy with your friends and have your life. It's neglectful when the person begins to really feel through their spirit that they're just, you don't care about me, like at all. I am dead to you. Like that's, being invisible is really, really next level. that make sense? Kyle (39:24) Absolutely. It does. Chris (39:27) Yeah. ⁓ What did we talk about in the show, Neil? I guess when we were kind of dealing with that, I got compliments on Casey, by the way, man. My people like talk to me like, man, she's smart. She's smart as a whip. I love Casey, Casey, Casey. Everybody loves them Casey. Kyle (39:39) Thank Neil (39:43) Yeah, Casey's awesome. I think the interesting part about when you look at emotional neglect in a relationship, it's kind of a little bit different than say your parent child or even like a working situation, right? Because in theory in a relationship a lot of times people, choose this other person to be with them and the next thing you know now that other person is actually taking that trust that you're building the fact that I want to spend time with you, I want to build this relationship with you and then all of a sudden they're just like, now they're treating you like dog dookie, right? That's kind an interesting take on this as well as the fact like you're making the effort to build a relationship with them and they're just trying to continuously try to tear it down by this emotional abuse, right? So it's kind of an interesting to me in my head. It's like, it's kind an interesting take on it because I don't know. It's just there's, there's, there's, there's, it's almost worse to it because of the fact that this person is trying is actually making that choice to have a relationship, to want to connect. Kyle (40:35) You Neil (40:46) to want to build a relationship and this person's not doing it. I don't know why, but that just kind of stood out to me. Like, Kyle (40:51) You Neil (40:52) it's just different. It just seems worse. I don't know. Kyle (40:58) It's almost like they could be doing it for a reason, on purpose. Hey, maybe they don't want to be in a relationship anymore, but they don't want to cut the tie. They wouldn't want to be the one to cut the ties. They could be doing it so that the other person cuts the ties. Or, and I just think so many things that could go wrong here, you know, by having such an invisible ⁓ know, emotional invisibility. It's just, people can fall into a bad place, you know, very quickly with that. Or they could go into a very dark place, you know, with the technology these days. Who knows? Chris (41:29) and Absolutely. I will point out a really good example of all this stuff, a much better example ⁓ than workaholic, think, honestly, we were talking about before, is substance-abusing families. So whenever there is a mother or a father, particularly, that have alcohol or drug-related trouble, we know, and we've talked about it on the show, that that's a family-wide deal. That's not just a single person's issue. It's a family dynamic. And neglect. is one of the major things that happens with this. And so when somebody's life gets kind of consumed with their relationship with alcohol or drugs, what do you think that spouse is experiencing? I mean, not that an alcoholic drinks every day. Oftentimes that's case. I don't want to perpetuate that myth that if you drink every day, you're an alcoholic by saying this, but I'll use that as to say, like, if your routine is like, go to work, come home, Kyle (42:17) Now. Chris (42:34) Crack the beer, crack another, crack another, crack a fourth or a fifth, and now you're buzzed up and you're watching your show, you might grab a bite that the spouse made you to eat, and you crack a few more, and then you go to bed. Monday, and Tuesday, and Wednesday, and Thursday, and every day the same story rolls by, the wife or the husband of that alcoholic is kinda like, What am I doing here? Like you're, I don't know how you're feeling. You're not telling me what's going on with your work. We don't really connect. I mean, I am feeling very unseen. So whenever I hear somebody's history involving ⁓ alcohol or drug abusing individuals in their life, my clinical head kicks into overdrive with all of these types of things that I'm really educatedly guessing that you've experienced. I'm usually there are elements of that there. Sometimes it's physical, sometimes it's sexual. again, it might just be, look at how I said that, it might just be, air quotes, Kyle, it might just be the thing that really kills your soul is neglect. Right? So it's not smaller, it's not simpler. I know that sexual abuse, which where we're probably going next, right, is a whole lot more loud or... ⁓ Kyle (43:32) Mm-hmm. Chris (43:58) damning to a thing. It's, we get freaked out about that, you know, but like these things with emotional abuse and neglect, you know, abuse that comes through neglect are, are, are really hard. Are we too serious, Kyle? We need a joke or something. Crack a joke Kyle (44:11) You You Chris (44:15) for crying out loud. Kyle (44:17) This is tough subjects. He really is. I mean... Chris (44:23) Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, Neil. Did I pour it on too thick? Because we had a grand finale this month. Neil (44:29) You, yeah, you got a little down in the dumps with these ones, but I think it's good to hear because I think, yeah, usually your theme, you kind of go different parts, but yeah, this is kind of a Debbie Downer month. I mean, when you think about it. ⁓ And that's I'm really excited about the next week's episode because we're talking about that recovery. And I think that's where I think this is important because I think these things are very, it's. Kyle (44:32) Okay. We. Neil (44:59) I kind of think about the idea of the different traumas, In your body, you have cancer, right? Cancer comes in and you don't realize it's become a problem until it hits a major organ or it becomes a large mass, right? To me, emotional neglect, emotional abuse is that same idea of a cancer. ⁓ When you look at the sexual abuse or the physical abuse, it's more like a car wreck, right? You see what happened, you go from regular to all of a sudden, now this happens. But these emotional abuse and the neglect that comes into it is like that cancer that you live with because it kind of slowly builds up and you don't realize it. You kind of, I got a pain. Well, I'll just deal with it later, right? You know, I have this and then all of a sudden you have something major happen, right? You have major headaches. do it, but, and it's just as bad. And the problem is, is just like emotional neglect and just like a cancer. If you don't address it sooner, if you don't go get your check, if you don't... look at it from the outside and say, what the heck's going on with me? It's gonna be too late. The damage, the repair you have to go through is gonna be so much more extensive ⁓ than if you looked at it from, you talk to your best friend and they say, hey, something's weird about your relationship with so-and-so, right? When you find out soon enough and you can address it, it's different than five years down the road and now your self-esteem is shot, your, you know, your... Kyle (46:00) Mm-hmm. Neil (46:20) not hanging out with your friends because you don't want the other person to get mad at you or you're going to have an affair with someone because you're being neglected. There's all these things that come into it. So I think that's the part you have to understand is neglect is really damaging. You just don't realize it until it gets to the point where it becomes a major, major problem. Kyle (46:37) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chris (46:38) I love that metaphor. is Kyle (46:41) Yeah. I'm Chris (46:42) dude, Kyle Neal's a therapist hanging out with us too much, man. He's been hanging out with us way too day gone along. It's almost scary. Let me do a practical question so that we can get to the grand finale with Mr. John King. So I will ask you, you as a listener, thinking about this and hearing this, right? Have you learned to downplay your needs? Needs are a weird word. People don't even like to mention them sometimes, but you may have begun to downplay that. And maybe that's because you haven't really been responded to, that you haven't been fully engaged or you just sort of feel even weird saying that you really want something. So when you're looking at your partner or your person that you're feeling questions with, have you downplayed things about yourself or tried to make It's such that you're fine. That's what everyone says, right? I'm F-I-N-E. I'm fine. I don't need anything. Be careful about that because that could very much be a sign that you too are kind of dealing with this. ⁓ Let's do the last one, Kyle. I'm tell you what, I was impressed with this homeboy. We had this dude. Kyle (47:56) You know, I think next year you're gonna have to change to like a love month for February. Yeah. Chris (48:02) He he he. Neil (48:03) Oh, yeah. Yeah, great, Chris. It just dawned on me. It's Valentine's and all this stuff, and you talk about emotional abuse, neglect, and trauma recovery. What the heck? Chris (48:11) That's really good point. Happy Valentine's Day, honey. Let's listen to Thurth there with his eyes and see how down depressed we can get. Kyle (48:19) Hey, even in my class I did a love mix for February, so there you go. Chris (48:24) ⁓ Beat to my own drum, man. I don't follow the world's themes. I must admit I didn't even pick that's hysterical. Mr. John King smoking a cigar, hanging out with us on the show with a heck of a powerful story. Neil, how do we, how do we bring us into what he brought to us, man? mean, big deal. Neil (48:50) I'll tell you what, when he first talked about his experience and how it started, I'm like, holy crap. Like one, for him to be a guy in that situation or a boy in that situation, a young boy, four years old when he first had this experience with. Chris (48:57) Yeah. or Kyle (49:05) Mm. Chris (49:07) Let's be careful, Neil. Let's not go explicit. I don't want to have to mark this episode explicit again, so but... Neil (49:10) Right. But the fact that it was a young boy with an adult woman, like this was really kind of an interesting thing that you just don't hear stories about. Like that's really, that's his opening part of our conversation. And it's like, kind of changed the whole dynamic of everything he talks about to the rest of it. Cause you, it changed your mindset. Because when you think of sexual abuse, this is not what's talked about, which is what's part of the conversation that we had. Kyle (49:29) Wow. Neil (49:38) This is not what people discuss or think. Chris (49:41) It cannot be discussed Kyle (49:43) you Chris (49:45) in Man World. Neil (49:47) Mm-hmm. Chris (49:49) horrible. Kyle (49:50) Mm. you Neil (49:51) Yeah, that was the big part that I got out of it. then he, mean, like I said, his experience with, because I think it was, it was like eight, eight or 10 years he went through this. Cause he couldn't remember when it finally came to him that he really was going. Well, he said, he talked about something about being like 12 or 16. He wasn't sure exactly the age, but he said it was either he was 12 or he was 16. Either way, it's still. Chris (50:06) feel like it was up till his 20s, Neo. Neil (50:18) longer than any kid should have to go through, right? I mean, it was just a crazy, crazy situation. But then to talk to him now and talk about his journey where he went through different things, how much it affected his first marriage, he's on his second or his third marriage, I'm trying to remember. But it's just so cool to see his realization of what he went through. Chris (50:34) Take a second Mary Jane. Neil (50:43) the changes he went, how it affected him, and then how it affected him in his relationships. Like it was really a sharp guy. I mean, like I said, he had this wall of books and I said, which one's your favorite book? And he showed me this thing, and this was in between the shows. Literally the wall, I think was like 15 feet with like six books, six shelves covered. And then he said, he's like, imagine I've given away five times what's on this wall. And so his wife made him stop. But this guy is just, he's dove in to learn as much as he can. He's there to help. Like it's just, it was an amazing episode. You need to watch it. Chris (51:20) And here's the thing, know, he wasn't, he was very clear about this. Maybe that's why I was mixed about the age. It occurs to me, Neil, because he was living his whole life. This was never dealt with in his adult life. So the molestations and the trauma from trafficking. Also, we haven't even said that yet, Neil. He was involved in trafficking. Kyle (51:44) You You ⁓ Chris (51:48) And he gave an interesting description of that that you'll have to catch for the show because I want to get to first responders with this. But he lived his whole life with a lot of anger, a lot of harm, a lot of hurt, bled out probably on his first husband, first wife and all that. And he didn't really get to dealing with this until he was 45. OK, like he lived a full adult life with this. And we know from our friend Chris Davos, who was on the show as well. ⁓ pop that episode, Neil. want to, I want to give credence to Chris as well when he, he did a very similar thing kind of as in addition to sharing his torturous abuse, where we created a program called this will not defeat me.com because you know, it just poured out when this stuff came out for both of those dudes. And that's, that's just something, like I said, that people will live a lifetime and never really address this stuff. And that's, that's where it gets really damning. Kyle (52:23) You You Chris (52:48) Um, Kyle, he taught me something, dude. I was, I was kind of amazed at learning this and I loved that he shared this with me. told him on the show, I'll take it for the rest of my clinical career. You got Chris's show, Neil? Yeah. 232. And what did we entitle it? Yeah. Yeah, that's right. We were introducing the program and he, shared his whole thing. You know, I have been very partial, Kyle, to, to, to talk to and work with first responders. Neil (53:00) as 232. Introducing this will not defeat me. Chris (53:18) and military personnel as well, but especially with first responders. But I feel like he has some of the statistics with them too. This guy's a walking brain. He's amazing for detailed information. Because he shared, by the way, he's on the spectrum, right? So he didn't really have the capacity to kind of convey this throughout his life as well until he all came out. Now he's like a world renowned speaker about it. But first responders have an overwhelming percentage of their own childhood sexual abuse that they've never been able to address. And that is one of the things that brings them into that vector, that business, that sector of operation. Kyle, it's like 30, 40%. Kyle (54:02) To protect. To... Wow. Because they want to protect. I'm assuming. Chris (54:08) Exactly. You messed with me then, you're not messing with me now. And I think there's also added things that he didn't talk about and I'm just sort of educatedly guessing that there's an adrenaline rush. There's a ⁓ feeding of that, the body that gets triggered and escalated and ⁓ hypervigilant is all of this PTSD stuff. And you get, it's like a moth to a flame, man. You're a moth to the flame. You've gone and endured this, you've survived this, you're a powerful, courageous survivor, and now you go into special ⁓ operations like, you know, policing especially, and firefighting, and all of our first responders, men and women, and he made it clear that it was not gendered. I was just fascinated by that. I did not know that, nor ever was exposed to that reality. Kyle (54:56) No. No, wouldn't have picked up on that, but it makes it. Now that you say it, I can understand why. Chris (55:05) Yeah, it does, it? You know? Kyle (55:07) Yeah. Wow. Neil (55:11) The other part. Kyle (55:11) That's correct. That's Chris (55:11) ⁓ Kyle (55:11) very courageous of him and be able to come out and share that information. mean, it's, I can't even fathom, you know, what anybody that has gone through that has gone through something like that. So. Chris (55:24) Yeah. It takes an incredible amount of courage to take just the first step. And Neil's right. We did a part one and a part two with John and he's going to have in the second episode, which will be out next week, we'll be publishing that, where he talks about recovery. Neil, don't let me get off of here without talking about the daffodils. But highlighting like, man. It's the silence that kills on this issue. And I'm, I'm not trying to downplay, you know, women that come out and talk about this. You we had the Me Too movement and I mean, Kyle, don't, I don't know if you even noticed this, but we recently, we had a congressional hearing where they were talking with the Epstein case and the things that are going on here in the States with, with that horrific set of abuses and Kyle (55:56) Mm. You Chris (56:23) I'm not getting into the politics and what was going on with Pam Bondi and how all this was going, but one of the senators, they're doing their process in interviewing the attorney general. Did I say that right, Pam Bondi, attorney general? Anyway, yeah, I sorry. And they looked at her and they asked her, like, can you turn around and look at these women? I think it was, you used the word women. Maybe it was just survivors, I could be wrong, but in... Kyle (56:36) Yep. Chris (56:49) In the panel of people, about 10 victims of the Epstein case were sitting there. Did you know there's men there? Kyle (56:53) Mm, not. Mm, bit nut. Chris (56:58) There were men standing there, sitting there. And we look at all of the women that were abused and neglected and just in all of that trafficking. It's not even thought about that dudes, little boys, men were sexually molested in that whole ring. That drives me nuts. The silence killed. Kyle (57:15) Yeah. Yeah. But we have, I we have to go through training, uh, you know, being a part of the Y YMCA, you know, for this and, you know, to look out for these types of things, you know, what, what predators prey on, you know, they look for, you know, things like isolation. They look for people that do not have, you know, big social arenas, um, you know, and that's what they target. And so it, and then the intimidation factor, you know, that they fall into is like, You cannot tell if you tell this is what's going to happen. And it's, it's sad to realize that, people, you know, they do this. It's breaks my heart. Be honest. Chris (58:03) Yeah, there's a there's an interesting ⁓ indicator now. Not I I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't say this. I already started, so I'm going to be careful. There's a lot of clinical signs with this. I don't want anybody kind of trying to take what I'm about to say ⁓ and try to decipher if somebody's had this or not, because that can cause problems. I don't want that. But but it is interesting. We've done ⁓ things with rope courses, right? Kyle (58:15) Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Chris (58:28) That's where you go out into woods and you kind of crawl across a beam and you do climb ropes and you do team building activities with these rope exercises. And I learned a lot of years ago that, you know, a lot of times it involves touching, right? So if you're the instructor and you're giving my group of 10 people that are in this ropes course to build team presence and stuff and create like this, this story where you're downed by an aircraft, you have to go over this valley, you have to survive by getting over this cliff. And so you walk across a two by four. and people invariably fall and you have to start over and you know, and this type of thing. Well, what happens is the group kind of problem solves through this and they figure out that when we link arms or we touch and we hold each other, we can all very easily go across the beam. It makes balance very easy, right? And so, but you'll see, I wish we were live in person, but Kyle, if I reached out and gave you that sort of limp touch. Kyle (59:06) Mm. Yeah? Chris (59:24) You know, you, have you ever shaken somebody's hand where they're barely squeezing? They're barely, you know, or they, they're, really squeamish about even reaching out. Kyle (59:32) Mm-hmm. Chris (59:32) Like a lot of times that indicates, guess what? Sexual abuse because the touching is so uncomfortable and the body, know, Casey talked about in all these shows, the body remembers everything. And so it's, it's, it's a powerful little script that I picked up a long time ago that, know, people are affected by this, man. Kyle (59:46) Right. Neil (59:54) Here's something that John John talked about in in the conversation is during his first marriage with his kids He didn't even want to bathe his own kids He didn't want to see his kids naked because of what he went through and everything Like and that was one of those things that when we talk about PTSD like and so he was almost feeling like he was a neglectful father Because he didn't want to actually you know Take care of his kids in that way for that particular thing because of what he went through Chris (1:00:24) Exactly. Kyle (1:00:24) So it impacted every bit of his life. Chris (1:00:27) Yeah, yeah. And I can't even begin to tell you the sexual problems that happen in adult life. mean, kind of go, by the way, a very clear sign. This is one thing that you can maybe use to look out for that occurs to me. People are very naturally going to do one of two things when you're a victim of these types of things, men and women, by the way. This isn't really gendered. You'll either go hypersexual or sexualize everything and you'll have Kyle (1:00:29) every aspect. Chris (1:00:57) a lot of it and do it all the time and all that, maybe multiple affairs and all kinds of hypersexual, or you just shut down your body and your experience. You're like, I don't even want to have, I'm asexual. don't want it. I don't ever want to it. Right. One of the two extremes. And you can go from one to the other as well. You know, it just, that's that's a very normal thing that, happens for, for survivors. ⁓ man. I agree, Neil. I'm, I'm super excited about, Kyle (1:01:23) Hmm. Chris (1:01:27) the part two that people gotta check out because we talked a lot more about recovery. This dude is well. I mean, this dude is solid. He went through torturous example of abuse, which by the way, doesn't always have to be dramatic. Doesn't have to be so loud as trafficking and all of the things that you might hear with some of these stories. It can just be a little bit of an experience with your cousin. who's 10 years older than you that made you feel very ashamed and, and, and was active sexually with you, you know, a few times. Yeah, it doesn't, you know, that's that qualifies, right? There's a lot of people that would think like, I didn't go through that. That's, that's, I can't claim, you know, yeah, you can, man. You absolutely can't be careful about how we quantify. Neil (1:02:14) I think the other thing that you have to understand too that John talks about is when he talked, because he actually helped ⁓ other survivors through different things, but he said on average it would take, he said 10 years, 10 years to help these people process and work through these things. So it's not even like, you do six months of therapy and you're good. No, he said 10 years was average. Chris (1:02:30) Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Neil (1:02:38) to help these kids get help these people. I gave him a say kids these people get back to a pseudo normal state of living right? That's putting it all together. Chris (1:02:46) And I can attest to that, Neil, I've walked through this with people. mean, you know, it is not an immediate deal. I mean, you have a full relationship and then sometimes you'll stop and then you'll reengage and you'll take another rest for a year and then reengage too. it's, it's, mean, well, you weren't here, but you remember Stephanie Fass talked about that trauma of recovery that she went and endured. She... ⁓ Neil (1:03:10) Yes, I wasn't here for her because I think she was before I hopped on. Chris (1:03:14) Yeah, it was like episode 10. It was very early on and what a powerful story that was. book, She Is Mine. Yeah, Kyle, can you tell that Neil and I were loving to do the show and the interview with him? I mean, is that obvious? It was powerful. It was really powerful. Neil, you want to introduce the daffodils? Like how do you remember the daffodils? Because I just thought that was powerful. Kyle (1:03:27) I can see that. Yeah. I'm going to have to go back and listen to that one. Neil (1:03:41) I'm kind of confused, you can, cause I kind of trying to figure out exactly the purpose of the daffodils, but can you explain it? Because I'm trying to remember exactly, cause I remember saying the story a couple of times. Chris (1:03:53) Yeah, I I'd be delighted to because it was. It really touched. It really touched me in a way I was I wasn't surprised, but I was I was kind of floored and I I saw that in his interviews, the documentaries dudes got a documentary. Check out the show notes and go check his stuff out. He's on Amazon Prime. ⁓ Stop traffic is one of the documentaries where his story was was held and then, my gosh, what was the other one? Save me, Neil. ⁓ Neil (1:04:22) That's in the show notes. Chris (1:04:23) Darkness something. Yeah, I forget a light light in the darkness. Yeah, check check that out. I Say that out loud for me when you get it but the the part that really touched me because I like growing things I like flowers and things like that and I I was really touched by his experience with these daffodils So Kyle he came across like his neighbor had like daffodils and they were beautiful flowers and and he He just noticed every year Neil (1:04:27) Something like that. Chris (1:04:50) you know, the daffodils would come up and there was a process of like recognizing it's been another year, it's been another year, it's been another year. Every time these daffodils would come up and bloom. And it was just something that he noticed and he really kind of caught his eye as well. And then one particular day, presumably when he was in his 40s, he stopped. a little bit longer or you know, what have you noticed them a little bit different. They just hit them differently in these beautiful daffodils just reminded him of the beauty of what he is and how he felt. it almost like to me, he didn't say this, this all this way, but you know, it almost like gave him permission to, to engage and, and, those daffodils kind of triggered for him. I need to talk about. And that's when he launched in and engaged. was a therapist that he chose to engage. And we'll tell that story next time for sure about what that first therapy session was like, Neil. Holy cow, that was a heck of a therapy session. But it triggered him, his ability to go and launch into recovery. So I told him on the show, like, I don't think I'll ever see daffodils again the same way. Kyle (1:06:12) Good story. Chris (1:06:14) Bring daffodil. Yeah. Neil (1:06:15) I think the crazy part is his idea of the Daffodils were another sign that he made it another year. That's how bad it was for him was that that neighbor's Daffodils, I made it another year. And it's just like that weird thought process. Like just imagine for us normally it's like, yeah, it's my birthday. But like that wasn't indicated for him. Like, I made it through another like horrible year. I'm still alive another year. Right. That was that weird thought. Chris (1:06:29) Year after year, every year they bloom. Neil (1:06:42) That's what I took. One of the things I got from his daffodils was that perception of using the daffodils as a gauge to say, oh, I did make it another year. Right. So. Chris (1:06:53) Beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. ⁓ Kyle, did we do a good job here at the end taxing out with, with daffodils with the beauty of it and the recovery and the positive theme? we, are we less depressed man? Kyle (1:07:00) yeah. I like that. I like that. Going back to nature where we started, right? ⁓ Chris (1:07:10) Yeah! Look at the Cardinals, man. They're absolutely beautiful. Look at the daffodils. They're absolutely delightful. I love that. That was unplanned, but here we go. Closing thoughts, gentlemen? Any closing thoughts or things we left out, Neil? Kyle? Good stuff. Good stuff. Neil (1:07:29) I I got nothing. Kyle (1:07:30) Well, I got nothing. mean, I'm going to have to definitely go watch that last episode to go back and hear that story. Chris (1:07:35) Yeah, it's published on YouTube. You got the YouTube lives. a friend, subscribe to the channel. Listen, we love doing this. We review the shows because it's fun to kind of review what we talked about and we get different perspectives. And it's kind of cool doing these because like I, you know, I'm there, we're interviewing, we're doing the shows, but then I reflect. And then when we talk again, there's oftentimes like things that I didn't get to say or angles that didn't thought about since. you know, ⁓ it's why we do these month in reviews, but. Kyle (1:08:02) Yeah. Chris (1:08:03) We love doing this for you on Through with Therapist Eyes, so we invite you to come back for sure to see John King's part two of Male Sexual Abuse and Sex Trafficking, PTSD and Recovery. So we will see you next week with that show. Stay well, stay warm if you're cold down up there up north. We had some weather up there, you know. So we'll talk to you soon. Take care. Kyle (1:08:24) Okay.