In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we confront a quiet yet painful paradox: how two people can share a home, children, and a stable life, yet still feel utterly alone. Building on our audience-favorite discussion on emotional neglect, we unpack why functional “roommate” marriages drift into the emotional shutdown of the lost decade, mistaking conflict avoidance for real peace. Grounded in Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), we explore the hidden pursuer-withdrawer cycle, untangle the difference between physical proximity and emotional availability, and offer practical, honest guidance on how couples can stop managing logistics and start re-attuning to each other’s emotional bids.
Tune in to see Why you might feel alone in marriage Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How can two people share a home, a bed, children, and an entire life together—and still feel completely alone?
- Is marital loneliness caused by what your spouse isn’t giving you, or by your difficulty expressing and receiving emotional connection?
- Can a marriage be stable, faithful, and functional while still being emotionally unhealthy?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
Gottman Institute’s discussion of emotional bids
Loneliness Within a Romantic Relationship — 2025
Stress and Loneliness in Marriage — July 2026
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self
- Chapter 1.9 — To give is good, but to over-give can be destructive.
- Chapter 1.12 — Some people falsely believe they don’t have feelings.
- Chapter 1.24 — Boundaries are important markers between others and us.
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse
- Chapter 4 — If you can learn how to be alone . . . then you will learn how to be together.
- Chapter 5 — Share your life with your wife, but your wife cannot be your life.
- Chapter 12 — Your spouse cannot create happiness for you.
- Chapter 13 — Connection is in the little things.
- Chapter 25 — Not needing someone can turn into not wanting someone.
- Chapter 35 — Part of not feeling alone in marriage requires not being afraid of being alone.
- Chapter 40 — Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
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Episode #379 Transcription
Chris (00:25) Hello, good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whenever you happen to get this. This is being recorded on November the fifth, twenty twenty-six. And this is episode three seventy-nine. We got some fun shows lining up for you in the month of November. I, the brainchild of Through It Therapesize, I'm Chris Gazdick, your founder, by the way. Casey Morgan is hanging out with us. Miss Casey, how are you? Kasie (00:52) Hello, I am doing very well. Welcome to November. Chris (00:56) I know, right? Miss Victoria Pendergrass is hanging out. And mister John Pope, how are you, sir? Victoria (00:59) Hi! John (01:04) I'm doing outstanding. It's uh about eighty degrees right now down in Florida. Chris (01:09) Down in Florida. We have a Victoria (01:09) Cheers! Chris (01:10) full complement of the panel today. So in November, my brain child created an idea that I wanted to kind of towards the end of the year here look into like our listeners uh numbers and stuff and you know looked at you know where and whom we had uh the highest numbers with from you. So the whole concept here is uh you listened and we're going deeper. So we have some shows that we're gonna organize around which ones you kind of listened to more. And we're gonna look at it through a different lens, a little bit of a different angle, some other angles and issues that we're gonna bring up because this is through a therapist's eyes, where we disseminate information about mental health and substance abuse and blow up some myths and stereotypes, hopefully entertain you a little bit along the way, but knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. Click subscribe, John. You have to tell how many stars they want to give us? John (02:07) Five stars five stars all the way. That way we go to the top. Chris (02:12) We wanna be on the top, brother. Thank you. Contact at through a therapist eyes.com is the way to contact us to, you know, chat, let us know what you think. We also respond on YouTube. I am doing better about doing that. Listen, we are therapists, clinical therapists, doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. Uh what else do I say? Uh this is the human emotional experience, which we endeavor to figure out together. So let's launch a bit. Um this was a show, episode three seventy-nine, The Loneliness of Being Married, Why You Feel Alone Even When You're Together. Uh it's inspired by episode three forty four, Emotional Neglect in Relationships. Also 221 Cumulative Lipson Downloads. Uh or we had 200 and su plus downloads on this particular one just on Lipson. So, you know, it it People are interested, I think, in this, like being married, but yet in a contrast, you know, feeling lonely. Um, how can you feel lonely being in a marriage, guys? What what what strikes you immediately from? Victoria (03:27) feeling like you're not recorded. Kasie (03:27) Yeah, well, I definitely think that feeling lonely in the context of any relationship, in particular a marriage, is really when we completely become consumed with managing the responsibilities of life Victoria (03:40) I'm having internet issues, so. Kasie (03:42) together that we kind of forget to nurture the relationship within that life. Chris (03:50) Right. Okay. Let me just go a circle around. John and Victoria. Who's next? What what's your meat thoughts? Can you be lonely actually being married? It's kind of a weird double bind. John or Victoria, what do I gotta call out? What what what's happening? John (04:06) I don't know. Uh yeah, I I I think that's one of the things that I see a lot um with um my middle aged couples uh couples. But it's usually one's going to therapy and the other one's not. So it's not couples counseling. It's individual counseling. And that's one of the biggest complaints is that there's no communication. And they want to know how to improve that communication. And it's it's devastating to be in the middle of a marriage and um they basically are roommates just occupying the same place, but they're not of the same heart. Chris (04:55) Gotcha. All right. And Victoria, what are your primary thoughts off the front end? Victoria (05:00) Uh yeah, I just wanna give a heads up. I'm having internet issues, so Chris (05:04) I see that. Victoria (05:05) if I'm lagging, I apologize. Um what your original question was, how can you be lonely in a marriage? Chris (05:13) Yeah, I mean you're Victoria (05:13) Is that right? Chris (05:13) in marriage and the conflict and double bind of being lonely while you're married seems like a counterindicated thing, right? Victoria (05:21) Well, I would say that it's probably the same thing as people feel okay. Chris (05:24) Yeah, she's she is frozen up. All John (05:25) She's frozen. Chris (05:27) right, the three reflection questions that we have for you we like to do um each week is how can two people share a home, a bed, children, and an entire life together and still feel completely alone? That's what I was asking the panel up front. Is marital loneliness number two caused by what your spouse isn't giving you or by your difficulty expressing and receiving emotional connection? How about that as a bit of a dichotomy? We love to think of the other person, but we don't think of ourselves. I actually want to repeat that reflection question number two. Is marital loneliness caused by what your spouse isn't giving you or by your difficulty expressing and receiving emotional connection? Obviously it can be both, but it's an interesting thought there. And thirdly, can a marriage be stable, faithful, and functional while still being completely emotionally unhealthy? Yeah, you might Yes, the answer to that is likely yes, but um married but emotionally alone. So you know, thinking of that third question, I mean we all know that we see things in our office, you know, where you know, people have patterns that aren't so great but that are in a long term and such wise stable marriage. What would you guys see that all the time? 'Cause I mean, I think obviously I do. Kasie (06:48) I lived it. Chris (06:50) uh and then there's that. Could you do you do you dare to expound on that? Kasie (06:58) Yeah, I mean I I was in a very uh stable, definitely faithful relationship, super functional, uh super steady marriage for 13 years. Uh things came out that uh were beyond my control to manage within that relationship. Um and we amicably divorced and and it was very amicable. It wasn't pretentious. It wasn't a contended divorce. Um but it was stable, faithful, and functional. And what's hard about that Is that because it was functional and because it was stable in so many ways, uh the recourse from that or the follow-up from that becomes a lot of trust and mistrust even with yourself, uh as far as what you're able to contribute to a different relationship should you elect to get in one. Again. Now I'm happily remarried and it's great and uh it's very stable, but it's very emotional filled. So uh there's definitely a contrast, but you definitely can be faithful, functional, and stable and still emotionally unhealthy. Chris (08:18) Yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean I I I absolutely it's always driven me crazy and maybe we'll get into this with with later discussion points, but it always drives me nuts when I see, you know, couples that, you know, purport well we're better friends than we were partners. Um that we get along better now that we're not married and you know, in separating and divorcing there's everything between She's dead to me or we have Sunday meals together every week, right? Like and everything in between. And and you know, it it I can't help but wonder, Casey, you know, if we did reconciliation in a way or if if, you know, what was missing, what would what would be able to refire? 'Cause people fall in love and out of love like all the time. That was one of the very first things I heard in my own marital counseling way back when when we began. You know, she was like Deadpan. She was very aloud about look, of course you can fall back into love. You know, people do that all the time. So s so there's other characteristics. I you I think if we layered down deeper a little bit. Does that make sense? Kasie (09:27) Yeah. Chris (09:28) Yeah. And maybe we'll kinda get into that. Um Kasie (09:32) I think that a lot of couples fall into the trap where they mistakenly take peace within the relationship as a sign of health in the relationship. Chris (09:42) Right. Right. That's kind of what I'm getting at. I mean, you know, I there's there's there's things like trust issues and insecurity tendencies or um you know, uh I have a personal friend who ended up the the partner uh ended up um well switching sides, you know, ended up identifying as lesbian instead of, you know, being straight. Uh so there's all sorts of things that are going on. I I just I want to be careful about the impression that's purely yeah, you can be functional and stable and fine and still be in an unhealthy rel usually there's other things that kinda go into that, right? Y you know, so there's there's a there's a there's a lot there. Um John, you're quiet, man. What what are you thinking over there? Kasie (10:18) Yeah. John (10:28) Well, I'm uh I haven't been with y'all for uh while and uh so I I I'm thinking in terms of my wife and I. Um we we've had a long marriage uh and um even with a lot of challenges with health. with her health particularly for the longest time and now mine a little bit. And um we have we have really earnestly sought and I think his intentionality is uh is to really try to uh develop intimacy and connection and so some things have changed obviously we're I'm seventy three now and which of whom I'm reminded of all the time by you guys. So uh so you know I'm I'm older and she's older. And yet we are uh first thing we do is I mean we uh engage in small talk and in deep talk and we have goals and we're making plans and uh and yet we also have to deal with illnesses that come and go and uh And so that's been a good thing for us is is that that communication, the sharing a a common faith actually helps very much. Chris (11:49) You know, I uh to me the thing that you just said is the most key is connection. But you know, I I would maybe change the question here and say, Can you have a healthy relationship if you don't have connection? And I think we can agree pretty quickly, John (12:04) Yeah. Chris (12:04) right? John (12:06) Right. I don't think you can. I think all those things that you had mentioned on some of the reflection questions and and all of that, um regular conversations about schedules, children and responsibilities, um, I think a lot of marriages uh end up like that and they're they're kinda empty unfortunately. And that's a tragedy. Chris (12:29) It is tragic. That's not too heavy of a word. I mean I think that's what I'm gonna kinda trying to say is, you know, you may have a functional relationship and stable relationship and such and and and that is really good and maybe not so much fighting, but like like Casey, I think you said too, you know, we don't want to be an avoidance of things and we absolutely need to have connection. If connection gets severed or is flailing, that's when you really get into trouble. And that because that's when you feel a Kasie (13:00) Yeah, because I think that, you know, even going back to my previous comment about uh, you know, peace doesn't always equivocate to a healthy relationship, a lot of times we can experience peace because we just stopped bringing things up, right? Like if I don't address what's going on, then it's not gonna chalk Chris (13:23) Cool, looks like you're off the hook, girl. Kasie (13:24) cause conflict within the relationship. So I think that when you're connected, not only do you share great moments, small talk, intimate moments, but you also develop the art of conflict because you are connected and sharing emotional intimacy so that you both feel safe enough and vulnerable enough with each other that you can bring up difficult topics as well. And so I think that's a really important distinction too, that the art of conflict is a form of intimacy. John (13:56) Okay. Okay. I would agree. and I would say that we have in our Western culture a viewpoint that if you have conflict um that's a bad thing necessarily and that's and that's a false piece and that is a I'm gonna say ancient Greek philosophy which says there's no movement, no an absence. Whereas in the Hebraic tradition, uh and I'm a minister, so uh sue me on that, but Hebraic. Hebrew. Okay. Chris (14:29) It was that algebraic? What the hell? Kasie (14:32) No. Hebrew. John (14:35) Which is the the Abrahamic religions is that you can have conflict, but it is in a sense uh resolutions that are coming, the communications, the being able to have the conversation. So one could end up being very angry with one's spouse or God and enter into a conversation. I think the best illustration of that is a fiddler on the roof and Kasie (15:00) Hmm. John (15:01) Teviat and his wife. Chris (15:04) Interesting. For for those of us who are younger and maybe not have looked at the fiddler on the roof, John, what is the fiddler on the roof? G go go through that just a bit. John (15:12) it's a story. It's it's a s I'm sorry. And it's a story Chris (15:15) Mm. John (15:16) of and it's a musical and it's the idea is that uh uh it it was during the late eighteenth nineteenth century, during the pilgrims or the persecution of Jews in Russia and uh everybody's leaving and all of that, and where Teviev and his wife have to adjust to his um to their three daughters and marrying them off that they're marrying for love instead of marrying for you know as arranged and so he asked her at very key point while they're in bed together do you love me and she says what and he says do you love me and she says what does it three times and then what she says is she's done all these things and she loves him and there's that communication. That connection. Chris (16:11) You you I'm glad that you you you went there because I I remember that as a kid seeing that and I remember being really endeared with that. I was like, that is awesome. I but I hadn't remembered until you went through that. Like I remember Filler on the Roof and all. I mean, you I I'm glad that this came up because honestly, I John (16:24) Well, I was in the play too. Chris (16:26) think people probably have conflict and then feel lonely after that conflict because they're not really working through as a couple of that conflict together. I would almost kind of suggest that if you've ever felt that way, y you're please realize like you you almost can't have deep connection without conflict. I don't think that's an oxymoron. I don't think that's contradictory at all. You know, when you have conflicts and work through them together, man you can connect. you almost need that. Does that sound crazy? Kasie (16:59) It sounds crazy at all. In fact, I I would say that you know, a uh important cautionary tell here would be that a marriage absolutely does not have to look like it's falling apart in order for there to be reparative work to be done within the context of that marriage. So outwardly, like maybe you've seen couples before, right? Not just clinically in office, but just in everyday life, you might see cup couples that kind of go back and forth a little bit or nitpick. pick or you know, banter back and forth. Uh, but then they look like and feel like around everybody else that they're the most loving people. They love each other. They're really into each other. Because it it doesn't matter so much the outward presentation of what the relationship looks like. What matters is the posture of heart, right? Like the posture that each person has with the other. So we aren't always going to agree and so there's naturally going to be conflict. It doesn't mean it has to be knock-down drag out fights. It doesn't mean that it can only be a certain type of conflict. Conflict is healthy because you have two independent people who are coming together to create a life together, right? And so there's gonna be like butt-ups against each other to where we need to work through some things because we are approaching things differently or not the way the other person would. But what it does mean is that when we do disagree, we are trying to make the other person feel. as emotionally safe as possible so that they're opening and able to share how they feel, what they think, what's going on, without being so ridiculed that they just stop and close down and are punished by silence, right? Chris (18:59) Yeah, absolutely. I mean all that's good, you know, Casey, as long as we realise that the woman's usually wrong, right? John (19:05) Happy Kasie (19:05) Okay. John (19:05) spot, happy house. Chris (19:07) I just want to make sure everybody's awake and listen. I'm kidding, obviously people. All right, let me um let me get us back online with finishing up how how you know how and what happens with people being alone. I I I feel like we almost don't need, you know, any kind of show notes for this particular episode because I Kasie (19:23) Sure. Chris (19:23) feel like we could just really kill this topic. We deal with this all the time in therapy, don't we? Um you know, there's there's emotional neglect that is actually a thing. There's also, you know, at the same sort of uh book other side of the coin rather is intentional rejection. You know, loneliness can be without, you know, the conflict like we're talking about. And and and and I hear so often people talk about becoming roommates. And you know, I don't have any time to talk about it today, but you look up on through a therapist eyes dot com. That's the main site. Go to the search bar, type in lost decade, and you'll see that we actually repeat that concept, that that that content because I feel like it's such a big important part in the life of a family. It's it's when you just get lost in parenting and you just don't have that John, that connection quite as much, right? Um John (20:20) Right. Chris (20:20) physical proximity and emotional availability is a big difference. loneliness can be difficult to acknowledge when everything else looks successful, but these are all like states of being, you know, that can contribute to losing that connection. So, you know, let let's talk a little bit about how how this how this really develops. Um I kind of feel like the lost decade is one of the biggest ways that this develops, honestly. Uh, but what what what say you guys? How how do we really how can we identify this? Because the early on that we catch this with whatever's developing that leads into this horrible state of literally being married and feeling alone. What are the basement, what are the first few steps into that? horrible basement. How how how do you see Kasie (21:08) I mean Chris (21:08) that? Kasie (21:09) There are definitely facts present, right? Like here are some facts, right? Like if you are two people that have children, let's say, like, like I guess we're talking mostly when we have kids when we're talking about the lost decade, right? When when we have children, the facts are there are a lot of transactional points that do take place throughout the course of a day, right? There's a lot of logistics that are involved with getting kids here and there, uh having to do different events, stuff with school, balancing work, who's gonna cook dinner. What do you say? Chris (21:46) We do too much. I said, Do we do too much? you know. Kasie (21:50) I mean, that's probably a whole other show that we could go down the rabbit hole on for sure. Like how we just continue to fill our schedule with things looking for more fulfillment and don't even get me started on that. But anyhow, anyhow, so but there are transactional elements. Like there are certain logistical things that do have to take place for there to be some efficiency around how things are operating in a household. Can we agree on that? Like There are certain things like bills have to get paid, dinner has to appear, you know, things like that. Kids have to get home from school or to school, you know, just depending on your situation. So I think that's the first part. I think the hard part is that when we're only doing the transactional things and we're not doing the relational things, then after a while it's easier just to continue to do transactions. And it becomes very business as usual oriented. Yeah. Chris (22:51) fall into that pattern. You fall into that that pattern, truly. You know, I think, you know, that's that's one of the things, like, you know, you know, back up to our reflection questions, right? Is marital loneliness caused by what your spouse isn't giving you or or by your difficulty expressing and receiving emotional connection because you're lost in these tasks, maybe, right? Rather than blaming the other person, because that's what people do. It's it's it's so easy to think if my partner would do X, then I would feel Y. And that is a false narrative by far. Explore the relationship patterns. That's the goal. Which by the way is why I love EFT. Kasie (23:39) Yeah. John (23:39) question okay the observation is that there is by by making it transactional casey and uh and also um with you chris is that i think what happens is that they're they become objects they don't become real anymore they lose their humanity their humanness those those uh traits that you fell in love with the first time with that just being abs Chris (24:10) In the beginning. John (24:11) and being willing to be um uh vulnerable. I think it also takes intentionality and courage on the part of the person who is seeing that uh they're lonely and acknowledging it and then saying I may get rejected but I'm going to express this. I'm gonna do it in a loving and a non-blaming way that I'm lonely and I would like to figure out how we can get back Together. Become one again. Kasie (24:39) Yeah, I think about this perspective shift for just a moment, right? Instead of saying even something simplistic like, oh, how was work today? Right? Instead of saying, how was work today, looking at your spouse or partner and saying, How are you doing? How are you doing? John (25:00) I like that. Kasie (25:01) And authentically listening for that response. Chris (25:05) It's funny because I think we do that with coworkers, Casey. You know what I mean? I mean we literally do that more with people we work with. Yeah, because it well Kasie (25:09) Yeah. Well we spend more time with them. We spend more time with them, yeah. Chris (25:15) well think about it, because there isn't that routine. There isn't Kasie (25:18) Mm-hmm. Chris (25:18) that set pattern of monotony, the day in and day out tasks of feeding the dog and doing the vacuum and getting the laundry folded and all the things. Which by the way, John said Chris and Casey because Victoria has dropped. Neil also saved me because I was doing a talk to text back to Victoria. So that's what happened to Victoria. The office evidently, thankfully, we got through the whole day and it lost internet though. So she's she's uh she's just going home. I think she's had it. Uh Kasie (25:50) Yeah. Chris (25:51) to finish this up though, how it how it develops, I I I think there's there's a many times one or the other person, Casey, might be making that's called in Gottman's world a bid for attention. Kasie (26:03) Mm-hmm. Chris (26:04) You know, that are just missed. Uh, conflicts avoidance. I I remember as a young therapist, I I I may even have it a chapter in my book. I used to say all the time in marital counseling, I thought it was so swippy, you know, peace at all costs is no peace at all. And that just speaks to the avoidance. Parenting, work, caregiving, like we talked about, unspoken expectations, man. Can we just stop on expectations and say how big of a deal that is? I mean We don't have time, but uh be careful about what you assume the other person should or shouldn't be doing. Emotionally Kasie (26:42) Yeah. Chris (26:42) shutting down, repeated disappointments, differing needs for closeness, independence, and conversation and affection. And that goes right to the heart of emotion focused therapy that y'all know I follow in in way of the making sense out how we interact. What are the patterns? Kasie (27:03) Yeah. I I think that some of those patterns even start with misconceptions, you know, and not in any way, shape, or form, and I'm suggesting that anybody should have an affair or anything like that. But just because you're faithful to your spouse doesn't mean you're not still absent from your marriage. You know, and I think that that is something that people often think like, well, I'm all I show up. I'm there. I show up. Okay, like you show up physically, but are you showing up for them emotionally? John (27:41) I have a client who I'm sorry to interrupt you. I hope I Kasie (27:45) You're not, you're fine. John (27:46) do. I have a client, and um I've been with him for uh a few years. Um he and his wife are together, but they are separate. They are alone, they're both lonely. And part of the the issue is that he was So devastatingly ill that he, in a sense, nearly died several times, and his wife was expecting him to die. I think everyone was expecting him to die, and he didn't, and she doesn't know how to reconnect into their marriage. He's trying to reconnect into the marriage and to be able to connect and and and see each other as they are. He's physically changed it qu quite a bit. And she's afraid he's she's going to break him physically. And he he wouldn't mind having his bones broken a little bit. So so Chris (28:53) Ha ha. John (28:55) you know that that that's an Chris (28:56) Are we are we are we gonna make Casey, are we gonna make Jones put jokes about jumping each other's bones? I mean what John (29:02) So Kasie (29:04) Twelve, sorry. John (29:05) Yeah, Chris (29:05) Right. John (29:06) and it is so frustrating for both him and her because it's she had not really completely grieved the change that they've had in their lives. And he is he has now been cancer free for uh four years now. Six years. Six years. It's been in remission, Chris (29:25) Mm. Yeah. John (29:28) but there's always a chance he could come back. So Chris (29:32) You know, John, I I appreciate that and I I wanna I wanna just slow us down for a minute and and and really and really spend a moment on that because w we have s some cool thoughts and ideas that we've shared already in the show. Casey with the how are you statement. But I I I I hear you, John, with that, and where that took me is in my thoughts is is where I'm currently at, right? You know, and and a lot of people feel Interference. And I've had clients. I'm thinking of a lady right now that had all kind of projections in her life. That's a psychological term. Um, look it up because I don't have time to go to saying that dip deeply, but there's there's resentments, there's projections, there's reticence to trust, there's hurt spots, there's things that really are in our psyche. John, that really make it hard to to to to to allow to to actually do. I'm experiencing this now. John (30:29) And Chris (30:32) I know it's an international podcast, but you know, we're pretty genuine on here. And, you know, d twenty-eight years of marriage, right? And, you know, uh dating now is just a hell of a thing. It is not what I anticipated in my life cycle, right? And so I know these things. I I we're we're talking about and I can go in depth on any one of these concepts. But John, to To really emotionally with what I experience, allow myself to trust in the moment, allow myself to open up, allow myself to surrender to a person and to join, to to really connect. Don't me wrong, we do pretty good and we talk about this. If she hears this show, she's gonna be not gonna be surprised because we've discussed it. It's hard. Like it's it's almost on the subconscious level. when you have resentments or hurts. And the big thing with emotion focused therapy is the fear and the insecurities that drive us so hard. You can't just snap out of that. It it that takes a very purposeful effort. John (31:45) It takes a leap of faith. I'm I'm speaking in in existential terms, but it really does take courage to do that, which is another existential term. And so Chris (31:55) Mm-hmm. John (31:56) a person uh so Uh part of that is i it's not being brave necessarily as much as it is being willing to just just go out on faith and saying, okay, I'm expos I'm I'm naked emotionally, I'm vulnerable eh and tear down the shield wall. You know, basically. Chris (32:20) Yeah, man. John (32:21) Yeah. Kasie (32:22) Yeah. Chris (32:22) You know, it's it's really terrifying. And and the the lady that I was thinking about was actually a newlywed and I I I I always re I always remember her because she was like, I don't even like his mannerisms. I mean, we're only a year and a half into this marriage and she's like, I he drives me nuts. Like I I'm repulsed by some of the sounds that he makes. I'm irritated by some of his movements, like I made a major mistake. This is bad. And I'm like, wow, wait. Okay. And we had to get in and talk about it. And the the long term thing is she was she was really frustrated with her parents. They were in a weird, separated it was a bad marriage and it was a rough family life. And she took that and was transposing it, that's projection, if you will, onto her husband. And we identified that. She identified it and she's like, wow. And then she was. madly in love again, you know, months later, you know, as a newlywed again. It was it was profound. But that that I I think my main point right here is that that doesn't happen just so automatically. You you this is where d therapy really can kind of come in, right? Kasie (33:35) Yeah, I mean it's a hard transition, right? To go from uh this part of my life has ended, whether it's just a breakup or divorce. At our age, everything feels like a divorce. I don't care if you've been dating six months or sixty years. The separation of a relationship is very emphatic because we're not out here just uselessly dating and committing to people, right? If you're in a committed relationship for any period of time and that relationship ends, it's devastating. It is devastating when you've opened yourself up to someone and then that goes away. I don't care what the the s the terms were around it, you know, it it it's gonna hurt, right? And and so then a lot of times, you know, we we do the thing, we grieve the relationship, we retreat within ourselves and all that stuff. it's really funny though, because part of the revelation that I came to post my divorce, um, which was really hard, wasn't even in therapy. I mean, I was in therapy and I was doing well in therapy, but My daughter follows a YouTuber. Shout out to Hopescope. Probably not listening to us, but just in case. oh Chris (34:42) Mm-hmm. Kasie (34:43) She follows a YouTuber named HopeScope. And HopeScope does a lot of videos where they open a lot of items that you can get off random websites. And so her whole platform is, hey, let me buy it with a nondescript credit card. I can tell you if it's a scam or not. So you don't go out and buy it. Like it's really kind of cool, especially for that tween age population of people. So I was looking at her stuff with my daughter one time, and she had a sweatshirt in her hope scope store that said, but what if it all works out? But what if it Chris (35:17) Right. Kasie (35:18) all works out? And it was such in that moment, I don't know what it was about that moment, what a perspective shift. And so I thought about myself in that moment. And the truth is, is that you cannot build intimacy. In any subsequent relationship post a breakup or divorce without recognizing that if you're protecting yourself from vulnerability, you're not building. Chris (35:45) Right. Uh it's well said. Kasie (35:46) So you can't have one without the other. Chris (35:51) And and and honestly, the protection is m much more common than you would think it to be. It isn't just in post. Two two things. I want to go into EFT but first. You know at our age, we're all a little bit older, Casey, but I I like to point out honestly, we we be little children, we be little kids. You know, when they're going through a heartbreak and they're fifteen years old, look, that's not just puppy love. We we m minimize their experience. I I would I would broaden what you said to even at any age when you're you losing your primary relationship, it hits. I mean, you feel heartbreak, right? Kasie (36:32) Yeah. Chris (36:32) Um Kasie (36:32) It like my my son is fifteen and he's been in love with two people so far. Uh you know. Chris (36:38) Yeah. Kasie (36:41) But the hurt is real, you know. Now, do I believe that he was in the same type of romantic love that I'm in in my marriage? Probably not. Is it the same recourse of relationship? Probably not. But you do have two people who are committing to one another, expressing things to one another, sharing some aspects of life with each other, going into uh this different stages of life around the time of driving. And getting license and working, you know, they're doing life together, just not in the same household, right? Like they're doing aspects of life together, and then they break up. It's devastating. It's devastating. And to be honest, and I know that he doesn't mind sharing because he talks very publicly about it, but my son had a bit of a mental health crisis as a result of this teenage relationship. Chris (37:38) That's my point. Kasie (37:38) Yeah, and it's a lot more involved now, too, because of the access that they have to each other, right? Like Chris (37:43) Even when they might live in Nevada and you know, Mississippi respectively, by the way. You know? Right. Kasie (37:49) Exactly. Exactly. So I mean it's it's it is devastating for teenagers too. John (37:57) There's a there's a cartoon, I'm sorry, uh is it's called Zitz. And the the the young man, I think it's um I'm not sure what his name is, Jeremy or whatever, but uh he and his girlfriend, and they had a whole story arc, the cartoonist did, of Jeremy and his girlfriend getting more and more intertwined. And their arms grew longer and longer and they kept wrapping around themselves and they became cocooned. And Chris (38:27) Boy. John (38:28) that was the yeah, Kasie (38:29) Yeah. John (38:29) and it would it took an intervention to try to prime apart to still have a normal teenage relationship instead of having this super inner you know, enmeshed relationship. But the cartoon was they all had their arms around each other and Chris (38:47) Yeah. John (38:47) uh they they they they Chris (38:50) That's connection. John (38:51) That's k well, it's it's assuming they're they're uh personalities into each other and that's not the point. The point is you keep your your essential personality and your essential self, but you also connect and you're you know, you don't become uh just one uh p pile of protoplasm together, you know. So Chris (39:16) I don't know why this episode is moving so fast. I feel like I have so much more to say. Like, my gosh. Um th these fears. you know, I wanna I I haven't done this for a while on our shows and really walked through emotion focused therapy. And I wanna do the elevator version real quick because I think this is a big part of all that we're talking about when we talk about the fears and the protectionism. Right? Casey, I mean, you're right. If you're protecting yourself then then you you really have a hard time being being intimate. And here's the problem. I think we all are protecting ourselves. It's pretty universal. There's a continuum though. There is hope. Let's push that down so that you lose some of the idea emotionally that you have to protect yourself. From the FT perspective, we talk about there being two sides of the equation. Oftentimes opposites attract. But your your your primary Defending yourself from either abandonment or engulfment. Those are insecure states. Usually people find themselves identifying with the abandonment because we don't understand the intricacies and the day-to-day function of engulfment. Engulfment is like engulfed by fire, engulfed by water. You're consumed. It's like your really, really main fear is being taken over or run over. Or not heard, not listened to, criticized or controlled. It's all about you can't control me. If you're fearful about control in any way, Major, you're probably on the engulfment side. And this is the way you have this push and pull. Abandonment people pursue, engulfment people withdraw. And then you get things like, why don't you ever talk to me anymore? And the other person responds, Well, nothing I do is ever enough. And you have this back and forth. And that is an abandonment engulfment primary struggle that is pretty universal. So, Casey, what do think about that? Are universal defenses a part of marriage that creates oftentimes elements of this loneliness? Kasie (41:31) Yeah, I I don't think that they're always, you know, just innately organic. I think a lot of it is about what's happened to us across the lifespan, right? Uh again, a whole other show that we could go into, you know, but but we come into every relationship that we enter into with our universal defenses. You know, there there's no question that we show up carrying what came to us by way of our experiences on John (42:01) Mm-hmm. Kasie (42:01) If we were in a relationship where there was a lot of uh attachment-related issues, I may feel very abandoned, right? But that doesn't even have to be from a previous romantic relationship. That can be from a parental relationship. Like even back into inner child work when I was a young person, how did my emotions get handled? Do I feel like people are Chris (42:25) My p Kasie (42:25) gonna leave? Chris (42:26) my parents divorced when I was ten, Casey. Kasie (42:31) Yeah, I mean I was four. So and it was in the middle of a hurricane. Hur Hurricane Hugo. So like it it was like this whole thing, John (42:37) What happened? Kasie (42:39) right? So not only did I have an intense fear of being abandoned, but also in the middle of a storm that was devastated. We lost 72 trees that same night. Um John (42:49) wow. Kasie (42:50) and so afterwards I jokingly got a shirt at like when I was like five years old that said I survived Hurricane Hugo. And I always th felt like it meant like my dad leaving. Anyway, moving on. John (42:59) I'm Kasie (43:00) So lots of stuff. You're fine. John (43:00) I'm so old. I'm sorry. I I I I was thinking there was an old soap opera called the Silent Storm and um Kasie (43:08) Yeah. John (43:09) and they were always in uh meshed and they were always pursuing and engulfment and all that. That's what kept the the everything going. But um you know I'm I'm thinking too that uh uh part of this again is is people just have to be willing to to to show their real selves and you know even then it doesn't and make it sure it's gonna work. You may have a a partner or s or a spouse who um you know isn't able to do what you are willing to do and how do you handle that? And uh or how Chris (43:53) Wow. John (43:53) do you handle when uh I have I have a client who says, Well, I think I could change him You know, and believe it or not, I've heard that more than once, even though that's a stereotype, but it's it's true. Kasie (44:08) But I also go ahead, sorry, Chris. Chris (44:08) You just brought up two huge things there. yeah. Go go ahead, Casey. That's just that's that's that's deep. Kasie (44:16) Yeah, that that that is really deep. And and and I think it kind of goes back to the point that we were making earlier uh when we're talking about am I expressing my needs and am I, you know, receiving and understanding my partner's expressed needs as well? Because within marriage, right? Within marriage, not only is it about, you know, that build of intimacy, but it's also about understanding that there is a certain level of required flexibility. On the both on the parts of both people, right? So that we do have to flex sometimes outside of what we typically are in an effort to reach into the lane of the other person to give them what they need. So the golden rule, and I think I've said this on the show before, the golden rule that we all know is treat others the way that you would want to be treated. The platinum rule is treat others the way that they want to. to be treated. John (45:17) Mm. Kasie (45:17) Right? So when we're Chris (45:18) Ooh, say that again? Kasie (45:20) so the golden rule as we all know is treat others the way that you would want to be treated. The platinum rule, however, is treat others the way that they want to be treated. And so some of that does require some flexibility. I'm working with a person now that's in a marriage. And we were talking about this today. And John, exactly what you said is exactly what I stated to her. There is clear and congent evidence that he is clearly stating, I am not willing to do this. Right? I'm not willing. He has the ability. He is not willing. So now what is your decision? as the other person? What's your decision? Instead of focusing on getting him to understand why he needs to change what he's doing when he's clearly telling you he's not, what are you going to decide for yourself that you're going to do in this moment? Can you accept that and work within yourself to come back from that? Or do you let him know you cannot accept that? And and then move forward the conversation from there. But expecting him to change his stance to be able to adhere to your emotional need in that moment is a very difficult place to be. Chris (46:41) And again, you know, I I the the reflection question that just hit me that loudest of our thing is is marital loneliness caused by what your spouse isn't giving you? I mean, Casey, you just nailed that, right? Like that's pretty edgy. And Kasie (46:54) Yeah. Chris (46:54) they've said they're not going to, right? Or Kasie (46:57) Right. Yeah. Chris (46:59) do you have difficulty expressing or receiving emotional connection in a different way? Because Kasie (47:05) Mm-hmm. Chris (47:05) they're willing to do all kinds of things likely in your scenario. But just not that one. What is the problem that it has to only come in that form or can only be didn't you say something a little bit ago about flexibility also? You know? I mean it we can't be rigid. I mean it's it's so Kasie (47:20) Yeah, yeah. There there has to be a flex. Yeah. Right. Chris (47:27) things we we get so black and white with things. John, well let's take us into you know a next segment of people feel so desperate when they're in this lonely stance. It it John (47:39) Yeah. Chris (47:39) is a scar. scary ass feeling that feels just desperate and hopeless and helpless and y'all know when people come to an initial couple's counseling therapy session, people are just you know, bottom of the ninth, down by five runs, two outs, and you're you're we're supposed to come in there. Like can people find their way back, Mr. John (48:07) Well, I've seen it before, but I also know that it's daunting. And uh again, I'm gonna use the word um courage, and that is both both parties uh need to be able to do that and to be willing to to say uh this isn't working, this is not satisfying, and Casey, but the platinum rule, I'm I'm hearing that. And I'm I'm I'm thinking a person that i is oriented with the platinum rule will will more than likely be successful in being able to communicate in the long run because they're seeing beyond the here and now. They're also seeing they are projecting a a a future. Not that that they have have it down where they're controlling, but they're gonna take it as it comes and They're gonna do it together. And So that's what I'm thinking. Um I think I I've done probably several hundred marriages and I've always put up a red flag um because I'm a minister ordained, but um going on fifty years. But uh the point was uh there was always a significant Chris (49:29) Forever. John (49:30) uh that's forever a significant number of of grooms that did not um that did not want to have marriage um did not want to have a marriage uh counseling Kasie (49:47) Mm. John (49:47) and that's just um yeah did not want to do it they did not want to do premarital they didn't want to uh they didn't want to talk about finances part Chris (49:55) People are scared. It's terrifying. John (49:58) yeah I won't marry 'em. I wouldn't marry him. Chris (50:02) Hmm. John (50:02) So Chris (50:03) I think you've said that before on the show, isn't it like three times, four times that's happened? Not often, yeah. John (50:07) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They Yeah it's not often, but uh yeah the I usually am able to talk into it, but uh and then they say afterwards, Oh, that one's actually pretty good, you know. It wasn't so good. Yeah. Chris (50:20) I mean it wasn't so bad. I like to say a simple response to my question, honestly, can people find their way back? I I I tell people all the time, I'll carry the hope in this if if I need to carry it for you, but it's an absolute unequivocal yes, people can. Kasie (50:40) Mm-hmm. Chris (50:41) You know, if you in your situation will or not, I have no idea. That's the rub. I know it's possible with every fabric of my body and having gone through a divorce not too long ago. I know that it's possible. And like you said, John, we've seen it over and over again. Whether it'll happen or not, I got no clue. Because it really does take two and it's tricky because it's almost sometimes like this defendedness that you're talking about, Casey, on a John (51:11) Mm-hmm. Chris (51:11) subconscious Kasie (51:11) Yeah. Chris (51:12) level. But what say you, Casey? Can people find their way back? Kasie (51:16) Absolutely. And and I will tell you something that I think is the biggest revelation and realization that's that happens in the office with me when I'm working with couples. When we get to the place to realize that I'm not the problem and you're not the problem, the enemy of us both is the cycle that two the two of us have created without even realizing it. Chris (51:40) Right. That's why that's why I love VFT. It's the patterns, the patterns, the patterns. Kasie (51:42) When we get to that point, yeah, when you get to that point and you realize, wow, we really have created this cycle. And that cycle really is heavily focused on the fact that I want to dig in and like not feel abandoned. And you're like, you're suffocating me. You want to know everything. You want to be in control of everything. You know, da. And it's combating against each other that when we look and literally diagram interactions, we see both of those show up, then we start to realize that every interaction becomes that same cycle that we're attaching to over and over and over again. And when we realize that, that's the enemy. Chris (52:22) Tell ya. I gotta tell ya. This this was hysterical. I I can't believe I'm putting this on the show, but what the hell is what we do, right? Um, you know, because I was the abandonment in our in my marriage and and she was in the engulfment. And so one of the things that I heard was what I heard not too long ago. So my son and my girlfriend and I are hanging out and we're we're like enjoying a fire. This was like last weekend or weekend before. And we're just hanging out, having a fire, you know, it's kind of a nice night, it's relaxing and we're all having fun and and it was it was really it was a nice conversation with my older son. And uh Jackie looked out and she she she said, you know, in a in a fun loving spirited way, she's like, Oh, Christopher, it's always about you John (53:07) Yeah. Chris (53:09) Aaron heard this and like squelped. Like, he was like, oh, oh because he heard that more than once. The exact words. And but they were not spoken in kind, fun loving way years ago. But it was it was it was wild because of the way he immediately reacted that fun loving, lighthearted poke. that was a deep part of the engulfment abandonment battle and cycle and pattern that uh uh my ex wife Lisa and I had. So yeah, it it was hysterical. And we've repaired it. It was fine. We understood, but it was it was a it was a really interesting moment that the the kiddo picked up on the the old pattern and what this moment was. John (54:05) Uh-huh. That doesn't doesn't necessarily mean that the old pattern will continue. And I think that uh and Kasie (54:13) Yeah. John (54:13) I think there's always new possibilities. And I think maybe when sometimes uh is when one member of the of the couple or both of them stop thinking that there's not possi new possibilities. You can always make new possibilities. What do you think? Kasie (54:35) Yeah. Chris (54:36) Abs absolutely. I mean that's that's a big part of what we do in in therapy, John, you know, for for sure. I I just I want to move on to our panel question, uh, but before we do, I mean, things that we're dealing with in you know, in therapy, oftentimes it's not a formula, but these are just common things. We talked about communicate loneliness without accusing the other person of things, responding to emotional bids rather than merely solving problems. But you can't be able to recognize an emotional bid. That's a Gottman term from from his material. Rebuilding friendships, you know. It it isn't like, you know, I just had a a wife tell her husband not too long ago, I really want to focus on rebuilding a friendship so we can have affection. And this was after they felt lonely on look at this, a seven day vacation together. They felt like it was forced time, right? Um Kasie (55:25) Gosh. Chris (55:26) recognizing when one or the other has stopped trying because of obvious attempts felt unsuccessful. Uh addressing individual depression. Individual trauma or emotional avoidance. I would say honestly, I'm not blaming women, so please don't send hateful emails, but menopause I have found as a major factor in midlife with people. And then by the way, men follow up and go through that also, right? So individual depression and anxiety and understanding that couples therapy may help when this persistent unwillingness to engage becomes a larger relationship decision because you know there's always hope. And you know, it's there's so much that we deal with, John, that there's there's lots of little John (56:10) Mm-hmm. Chris (56:10) tricks in the trades, but but basically I love a lot of the things that we've talked about. You know, here here's here's a panel question before we are running out of time. I I'm really curious, you know, wanna get to kicking these panel questions around a little bit more than we do. Um, 'cause these aren't intended to be a right or wrong answer. There's no set formula here. But I'm curious, you know, guys, which which do you think is more painful in a marriage? Being actively rejected or really kind of realizing it that, yeah, my spouse no longer seems interested in really knowing me. Which of those two do you think really get at people? 'Cause as an abandoned person, I'm gonna land on rejection. Rejection sucks. Yeah, I bah you know, that's my That's my primary fear, right? Kasie (57:07) Yeah, I mean I I I would tend to say probably active rejection. And this is why, because I think that within active rejection, uh it feels like I want to connect with you, but you willfully and willingly continue to push me away. Chris (57:27) Right. Kasie (57:28) And it's like over and over, it almost feels like the definition of insanity, right? Of doing the same thing over and over again, expecting something different to happen. But every time it happens, it feels like a new cut, a new cut, a new cut, a new cut, a new cut. And so I think that that's what's hard for me. Plus, I'm a communicator, right? So for me, uh an expressive communicator, uh someone who likes to work at solutions. Of things and not just see problems, that would be the biggest thing is an act of rejection towards me. John (58:06) Can I posit Chris (58:06) What do you say, John? John (58:06) this I I I want to posit this is I'm a sepogenarian and uh and I'm gonna talk uh about my much maligned uh boomer generation. But um I'm thinking that that to me I I I'm talking to older people is when they they feel like I thought I was communicating, I thought I was doing all of this, but now my spouse wants to leave me. And it's to me that is devastating. That is you're getting older You're gonna say, Who's gonna be with me when I'm older? and all of that. And you know, you thought you were sharing these memories and reframing these and refreshing these memor memories that you'd had in the past and sharing them, but the person says, No. I think that would be more devastating. So I'm the second one. Chris (59:08) It's okay, you're you're interesting. I you know, I it's funny because Casey said earlier in your show, I'm gonna do the same thing. I lived it. John (59:17) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (59:19) I definitely lived that one. Um yeah, but it's John (59:22) I didn't live it, so Chris (59:24) well but it's it what's interesting is I I I kind of feel like uh I I kinda well yeah, I kind of feel like you were you were looking as a as a as an act of rejection though, not not so much the Well, I guess I see your point. Yeah, you're saying look, I'm doing all these things and you don't really acknowledge that and you don't want to get to know me. Uh I guess I see that. John (59:44) Yeah. But but that was has it all a lie? That was the the other thing I was going through. I I'll tell you, when I was younger, I had uh I was engaged before and uh I I went through active active rejection like crazy and I mourned for months. I was crying and weeping and all of that. And uh it was terrible. Um so I I don't know. Um Chris (1:00:13) But you know what's funny, John, to push back at that, honestly. Like, you know, yeah, I I I lived that. I did. I I that's that's a big part of what I call the decade of hell. I was a it was a long time that we were kind of dealing John (1:00:23) And you're never gonna forget it, are ya? Chris (1:00:25) with this. I I will not. And it's partly why I'm still subconsciously trying to overcome so that I can release and surrender again, which is ah gosh, it's so it's so crazy. But but what's John (1:00:33) Forgive and forgive and forgive. Chris (1:00:35) interesting, I feel like you're pointing that out. I kind of feel like I lived it, but I still feel like the active rejection is more difficult than than that, even though that's something that I lived. I yeah, go ahead, Casey. Kasie (1:00:50) I think what I'm hearing from both of you, and if I may kind of try to sum us up in this point, like John (1:00:56) Good. Kasie (1:00:57) I think the danger that I'm hearing from both perspectives is the emotional resignation that comes from both camps. Right? Like when Chris (1:01:05) Right. Right. Kasie (1:01:06) I'm actively rejected, and Chris (1:01:09) Mm-hmm. Kasie (1:01:09) also or I feel like there's a constant distancing, you're not like I feel uninteresting, then there's emotional resignation that can happen in both of those areas. And that's the point when both spouses stop asking, right? Both spouses stop initiating. Both spouses stop looking for affection. Both spouses stop bringing up things that hurt. Not because our needs have disappeared, but because trying to express those in the various camps without any kind of common. understanding of what each other is going through becomes just overwhelming and exhausting for both people. Right. And so we just emotionally resign ourselves. Chris (1:01:55) You know, honestly it is. It's well said and then and then the loneliness just bam. It just sets Kasie (1:02:00) Yeah. Chris (1:02:00) in and and now you now you had it. I think that that really is. That's a it's a total danger spot. So we're gonna go to panel uh practical questions rather. Um that was the panel questions. Practical questions is when we kind of look at you through the screen. We can't do therapy, this is not therapy, but we want to look through the screen, be with you and and talk directly through the program to maybe what you might be thinking. I'll I'll go first. Um genuinely understood, being understood and understanding each other is a huge piece of really making the connection John was talking about. So when's the last time that you genuinely felt understood by your spouse rather than just simply being listened to, simply having a conversation about, felt and feeling genuinely understood and understanding is what creates great connection. I hope it's not been too long for you. Um John, do you have a question for folks, I believe? John (1:03:04) Yeah. Uh I uh are you are you expecting your spouse, I think, to And I'm saying this to you, uh, to eliminate all your loneliness or your or do you imagine your emotional life uh will feel like? Uh what do you um rather is creating um I'm sorry, I I messed up here. Um Chris (1:03:29) Uh-oh. John (1:03:31) yeah, are you expecting your spouse to to eliminate all your loneliness or asking them to participate in a um a connected marriage? I I think there are many ways we used to be we're atomized now. We don't have community. We're all separated by screens or we scroll or we're like in a group and we scroll our screens and and I think my my question is and this is dealing with this is take time not look at that but connect but you don't have to connect to just your spouse you can connect also In activities and make community because that will bolster you. You get that support system. And so real connection isn't just you and me alone in the world or you and me against the world. It is you and me together and the world helping to support one another. Chris (1:04:36) All right, and Miss Casey Morgan would like to speak to you directly through the programming with a question for ya. Kasie (1:04:44) Yeah, so I'm actually going to combine two questions. So, first and foremost, if you're experiencing that feeling of loneliness, have you actually told your spouse that you are lonely? Or are you hoping that they're just gonna recognize it without you having to say anything? Right. And as soon as I read that question, I immediately had the thought that if I come in and I'm frustrated about something, instead of sometimes speaking about it, I'll start like slamming things around the kitchen, like close. Close in a drawer really loudly or like putting something down really hard on the table, right? John (1:05:19) Even Kasie (1:05:19) So it's kind of the same thing, right? If you're just expecting someone to have the magical thinking capability to be able to assess and know that you are feeling lonely, then you need to check yourself on that before you wreck yourself. Okay. So just check in and have you actually ask. And conversely, if your spouse is reaching for you emotionally. Are you recognizing that invitation and taking it for what it is? Or are you actually experiencing that as another demand on yourself? Because this is where that flexibility piece comes in. Listen, we are tired people. We are worked to the bone. We are exhausted. We are overwhelmed. There's a lot of things going on in life for both entities, right? But when someone invites you into intimacy, right, are you receptive of that invitation? Or are you seeing it as, oh, please don't? You know, this is a lot. This is too much for me. I would challenge that if it starts to feel too much, inspect that. Sit with that for a minute and recognize where that too much feeling comes from. Because that contributes to the overwhelming conversation of why do we both kind of feel lonely in this marriage? Because chances are, if you're feeling lonely, the other person probably is too in some regard. John (1:06:48) Is this a wrap up? Kasie (1:06:49) No, I'm just saying, like in general, this is a talk show. Chris (1:06:52) Good question, Mr. Pope. I was wondering myself. It's one question. That's all it is. John (1:06:55) I thought it sounded good uh as a good rapper. Kasie (1:06:58) Right. John (1:06:58) Yeah. I thought it was a good rapper. Chris (1:07:02) Should we count that as the wrap up, Casey? All right. What Oh no. Well, you make the decision if that is or isn't. So we do a shrink wrap Kasie (1:07:04) Yes, that was my shriek wrap up for the day. No. No, it's okay. Chris (1:07:11) up at the end of the show and friendly competition. Neil gets to judge who determines the best wrap up for the particular episode. He also has two for one today because he's going to give us the results from last session when he wasn't there, and I believe it was a head to head with Casey and I. I'm going to do this wrap up today, if I may. All right, listen. People experience loneliness right in the middle of their closest relationship. Kasie (1:07:38) Yes. Chris (1:07:39) Oftentimes that is marriage. That's a fact. And I almost feel that that is pretty universal. So let's normalize this. And at the same time that we're normalizing it, I want to go back into that realization that I do genuinely share with you that I am literally in real time trying to manage. It isn't an intellectual process. It isn't an easy process. It also isn't for the faint of heart. This is nothing but courage. Courage to be vulnerable, to stick into a moment, to talk about that vulnerability with your partner. And only through that vulnerability can you begin to get down to the layers and the levels of deep psychological protection that is also pretty universal. It is worth it. Because when you accomplish that, you not only reconnect and find yourself not alone, but loved. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is learning how to love and be loved. John (1:08:50) As one of the great rock theologians said, love hurts. I'm Kasie (1:08:55) Ha ha John (1:08:58) I'm saying this is that uh it's not going to be without some sort of risk or pain in order to uh make yourself as vulnerable as Chris and Casey have talked about. But it will be very fruitful for you if you're able to do this because by making yourself vulnerable, you're are you are planning with your with your partner, with your spouse, uh you're planning with them to grow uh together into the future and that you're willing to take a step in that lonely valley and you will find yourself sometimes alone. But then you can turn to your left or turn to your right and you see it's your partner's there with you. And that's what's going to carry you over those times when you don't feel that way. It will be because some of this is it's human to just feel isolated. It's so it's more of our default. But to be able to risk and to look to your right or took to your left and you see that partner with you. And that's comforting. And even if you don't feel it at that time, be assured there will be a time when that person will be there for you. And you all do that together. Chris (1:10:25) All right, Miss Casey Morgan, are you going to shrink wrap up or what you doing? Kasie (1:10:28) Yes, I'm gonna do a screen rack up. That that really emotionally touched me, John. I just want to say that. That was pretty emotional, I'm not gonna lie. When I think about growing old with my husband. Anyway, moving forward. Uh so here's the situation. We spend so much time in relationships and marriage, learning how to live together, how to do life together, how to manage responsibilities, how to raise children, how to build a future with one another that sometimes we often forget. That the person that we're married to and ourselves and ourselves are still in a process of change and growth. We're still growing, we're still discovering things about ourselves, just like our spouse is still discovering things about themselves. And those things still are yet to be discovered by each other. My challenge here is to tell you to not become just so familiar with the day in and day out stuff that you stop getting curious. Stay curious. When you are curious, you are more likely to ask poignant questions about who the person is that is sharing the couch with you, sharing the car with you, sharing the bed with you, raising the kids with you. Don't wait. Until the person stops reaching out for you to realize that it's important to continue to try to remain curious. Because sometimes the loneliest place in a marriage is not necessarily being rejected. It's realizing that someone stopped being curious about the person that you're becoming. Chris (1:12:11) You know, I brother, good luck, brother. I don't know what you do with this one. Neil (1:12:15) My internet's gonna help. Um honestly, every this was Yeah, exactly. Internet's gone. Um Chris (1:12:19) He he's in Vicky's vic he's in Victoria's vicinity. He's the internet is gone from the whole half of town. Neil (1:12:26) okay, so before I go into this one, because I think I know who won this one, but just going back to 377 between KC and Chris, that was a tough one. I actually had to listen to it like a bunch of times to kind of listen to both your guys' decide because it was really, really good. But I will have to give that one to Casey for 377. So Casey got that one. Chris (1:12:45) Ah, nicely done, girl. Head to head. Proud of you. Won't happen again. Neil (1:12:48) And and and I'm glad you did your shrink wrap up aga wrap up separate because you kind of last time you did the same thing where you did the practical question went right into the shrink wrap up. I'm like, you're cheating. You're you're cheating doing it that Casey. So okay. So today's one, listen to the show. I was kind of intrigued to see how this is. I I love the curious thing, Casey. I'm talking to my kid about that with his his this girl he rush he really likes. I mean you gotta get curious with her to understand her what you're gonna do. But honestly, I'm with UK C John's was very poignant. I think his was the best. John, hands down, you won this one. Great shrink wrap up. John (1:13:25) Thank you, thank you. Chris (1:13:25) Love that. Nicely done, John. You know, because it does, it gives hope to people even at the end. If it's not happening now, it will at some point. I I I agree, I love that. Kasie (1:13:35) I just honestly Chris (1:13:35) Yeah. Kasie (1:13:36) think about you enjoy like carrying each other at various points in time in your marriage. And it's sh it makes me so hopeful. John (1:13:39) Yeah. Yeah. We were carrying each other, yeah. Now I'm gonna crash. Kasie (1:13:46) I know, sorry. Chris (1:13:47) Yeah. It's good stuff, John. John (1:13:48) That looks okay. Thank you. Chris (1:13:49) You're you're a you're a you're an excellent person, a salt of the earth, a model and and and one that we aspire to, whether it's our first marriage, second marriage, third, fourth, or John (1:13:58) Yeah. Chris (1:13:58) fifth. I'm gonna do it like the Pope's. Yeah, yeah, I hear you on that. Kasie (1:14:00) Nope, after this one I'm done. So like I'm out. Chris (1:14:05) I hear you on that. All right, guys, listen, I hope that we had some fun along the way, some myths and stereotypes blown up, but most importantly disseminating information about a really important topic. We'll be clipping with your most listened to concepts from a deeper and different perspective in the month of November. Until next week, take care. Stay well. We'll talk to you then.