In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we unpack the often-misunderstood world of Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (OCPD) and explore how it differs from both everyday perfectionism and OCD. From the importance of accurate differential diagnosis to the ego-syntonic traits that make OCPD so challenging to recognize, we highlight how this disorder impacts relationships, marriages, and workplace dynamics. Using a case illustration and insights from marriage research, we discuss how rigidity and control can create friction while offering practical strategies for individuals, partners, and clinicians to foster awareness, flexibility, and healthier connections.
Tune in to see OCPD Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What does it mean to have obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, and how is it different from just being “detail-oriented”?
- Why is OCPD often misunderstood or confused with OCD?
- How can understanding OCPD improve relationships, therapy, and self-awareness?
Links referenced during the show:
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24526-obsessive-compulsive-personality-disorder-ocpd
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #326 Transcription
Chris (02:46.275)
Alright, hello and good wishes from the Through a Therapist’s Eyes Tribe. are experimenting with, well not experimenting, we’re on a new platform. have our live offices. You’ll see us on YouTube. We have a wonderful example of a mother with her son Lucas. How’s it going, Victoria? You doing okay there?
Victoria (03:06.67)
It’s going. It’s going. We shall, we shall see how this works out. thank you.
Chris (03:08.251)
It is going
John (03:10.351)
Happy birthday, Victoria.
Chris (03:16.089)
That’s right. Miss Victoria had a birthday, so she has been blessed us for we won’t say how many years on this earth. All right. This is through therapist eyes and we are getting used to our new panel or new process, our new thing as John has moved to Bradenton, Florida. This is going to be episode three 26 OCD personality disorder and a little bit of differential diagnosis as well as a title. So if you’re finding us for the first time on YouTube.
Victoria (03:21.917)
32.
Chris (03:43.875)
We can start usually about 6 15, 6 30, where you can interact with us live. You can also give us emails at contact at thrutherapistize.com. We love to interact with you. And you can do that in the show at YouTube live. So this is where you get a panel of therapists helping you out with blowing up stereotypes, myths and misconceptions about mental health, disseminating information, knowing Victoria, you know, this is not the delivery of therapy services, right?
Victoria (04:10.621)
Correct.
Chris (04:12.197)
she always likes to make sure that’s the case. All right, the three questions. What’s that? Yes, the five stars are important. John, do your thing,
Victoria (04:14.93)
do.
John (04:16.628)
Five star rating. Five.
John (04:23.048)
Okay, be sure to put us five stars rating because that helps us with our those who say with Google or with Apple. so I appreciate that. We appreciate all that.
Chris (04:38.927)
Everything’s driven by the algorithms these days,
John (04:41.097)
Are the algorithms real? Yes.
Chris (04:44.645)
So this is where you subscribe, click, do your part, we provide you content, hope they entertain you a little bit. Please do follow John, don’t upset him, he wants the five stars. Contact it through therapistyes.com. The three, why do I have a reverb now?
John (04:53.96)
Yes, I do.
Victoria (04:57.789)
Why do I have a reverb? Sorry, I had to readjust my iPod.
Chris (05:04.161)
Okay. Thank you, Victoria. Thank you for your patience, by the way, listening to this episode with our new pieces. That was another reverb. You’re adjusting again?
Victoria (05:08.752)
by the way listening to this episode.
Chris (05:19.983)
Now, what did you do, Victoria?
John (05:21.072)
I’m adjusting to living the bi-high life.
Victoria (05:21.983)
to living the bi-high life.
John (05:27.194)
I can hear myself talking, not now.
Chris (05:30.039)
Yeah.
Neil, are we okay, bud?
Neil (05:36.146)
We’re okay. think Victoria’s headphones are disconnected. You might be on just your normal laptop because it’s reverbing now when you’re unmuted, Victoria.
Chris (05:37.583)
Okay.
John (05:47.56)
Would you hold second?
Chris (05:50.364)
We are a rag-dad bunch getting used to the virtual. right, the three questions I want you to think about today. Hmm. What’s that, Victoria?
Victoria (05:55.239)
Okay, sorry, my ear.
Victoria (06:00.561)
No, go for it.
Chris (06:02.725)
Yep. The three questions that we’re looking at today is what does it mean to have obsessive compulsive personality disorder and how is it different from just being detail oriented per se? And then two, why is OCPD
Victoria (06:13.221)
it did per se. And then two, why is OCPD?
Chris (06:19.023)
the reverb again. is OCPD often misunderstood or confused with OCD? Because they are very different things personality disorder versus OCD and then how can understanding OCPD improve relationship therapy and self-awareness? So I wonder if people even kind of realize that OCD can be a personality disorder as well. Like I don’t think the public kind of realizes or even knows what that is.
Victoria (06:44.261)
It’s not the same thing though.
Chris (06:48.175)
Yeah, Victoria, this was… So I asked Victoria what diagnosis we want to do, and this was actually her idea, so I was like, bangin’, this is perfect.
John (06:48.314)
It’s very different.
John (06:55.505)
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Victoria.
Chris (06:59.749)
So why is it not the same thing and what’s the deal with that?
Victoria (07:03.549)
Okay, so, do you me to just go into my spiel about it? Because I have a whole spiel about it. Okay, yeah, okay, so OCD, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, is where you have an obsession, which is a thought, and then you have a compulsion, which is a behavior that follows the obsession. Like you do something so that something else doesn’t happen because of this thought that you have.
Chris (07:09.913)
Yeah, I mean, you you started us off.
Victoria (07:33.457)
and that like impacts, obviously your day to day living. It’s usually through like routines or counting. can be, it can also be like just in your head or like, like thinking, counting in your head. Anyways, so like there’s that. And then obsessive compulsive personality disorder does not have that. It is basically where you are just so hyper focused on
like organization and perfection to where that impacts your ability to like function normally in day-to-day things. you might ignore certain like morals and values that you have in order to keep this like inline perfection type routine thing in place.
John (08:27.043)
Yeah, I’m wondering if, and Victoria, I think that’s correct. I think there’s also people that would fall in the spectrum of OCD that could have predominantly obsessive thoughts as opposed to compulsive thoughts or, yeah, or compulsive actions rather.
Victoria (08:45.499)
Yeah. gosh.
Victoria (08:52.347)
Yeah, but it’s still, that’s still different than, yeah, that’s still different than OCD. So like.
John (08:56.1)
OCPD, yeah. Okay. I think every one of us have had somebody that is perhaps a boss that is OCPD.
Victoria (09:13.883)
Yeah, so… Yeah.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you.
Chris (09:19.643)
So one of the things that I think is interesting about this honestly is first of all, you know, I want to do a segment here in a moment on differential diagnosis. Now that’s really through a therapist side. It’s like, I don’t think the public realizes or understands what happens in our minds and in the process with diagnosing. So we gave you a little bit of a touch tone with OCD compulsions, OCD obsessions, and then OCD personality disorder. And we’re going to make a little bit clearer
picture of that because I think people get really confused about this. Okay. So first of all, let’s go into a little bit of differential diagnosis. Okay. What do we really mean by, yeah. What do we really mean John by, you know, differential diagnosing?
John (10:07.298)
It’s what you may have a you may come to a conclusion that this is probably this diagnosis and then you have to use your reasoning and your knowledge to be able to and perhaps some intuition so there’s an art to it where let’s say a person that has it might also be and you might have to rule it out another
personality disorder or an anxiety disorder or that sort of thing. Could be depression. In this case, think OCD, personality disorder or OCPD, you could be someone with autism, for example, or avoidant personality or let’s say schizoid personality disorder.
And so you have to rule that out because they have their own criteria that would fit. Let’s say a person with autism spectrum disorder would have another set of symptoms. And so you would have to rule that out and say, OK, this person doesn’t have ASD. This person has OCPD.
Chris (11:34.47)
So, John, let’s back up just a little bit. It makes perfect sense to me, but I think that what I want people to understand, we don’t have a lot of time today to talk fully about diagnosing, but what I want you, the listener, to understand is that us therapists do have a lot of pressure in the sense that very first session when we’re billing insurance companies, we have to have a diagnosis. It has to be medically necessary. And so,
John (11:34.997)
Does that make sense?
John (11:44.372)
Okay.
Chris (12:01.091)
We some oftentimes can get that pretty quickly. We know what symptoms are. We know what to look for. And today we’re going to be talking about OCD and OCPD, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and Obsessive-Personality Disorder. We’re going to differentiate between those a little bit, you know, differentially diagnosing is just a fancy way of saying, hey, we start out with something and we get more information as we go through session three, four, five. And we change that through, John, you were saying, our reasoning and the symptomology and, you know, this type of thing.
Victoria (12:01.597)
Thank you.
Chris (12:31.579)
For a younger clinician, want people to understand like it’s okay to do that. I had totally changed my diagnosis a year into working with people sometimes, right? Like, yeah, that’s exactly happened.
John (12:43.386)
I have, I have, because it takes sometimes a year to find out what exactly is going on with.
Chris (12:50.329)
Right. And because they might not give us information, we find new pieces, there’ll new revelations. And that tells us like, wait, you know, it’s not this, it’s that. This is a really ongoing component of mental health that I don’t think people, you know, generally understand. Victoria, how many times have you changed a diagnosis being earlier on in your career? Cause John, think we’ve done it all the time, right? Right.
John (13:13.341)
All the
Victoria (13:13.725)
Yeah, I mean, I probably don’t do it like super frequently, but I mean, I have done it. Like I’m not afraid to do it because if it needs to fit, he’s looking at all the Legos in my office. But yeah, I mean, yeah. But yeah, no, I mean, I do it and um, um,
Chris (13:29.453)
We have Lucas, John.
John (13:31.995)
like
John (13:38.524)
the force is powerful within him.
Chris (13:41.595)
The Youngster.
Victoria (13:43.806)
Why is that up there?
John (13:43.962)
The Youngster.
Chris (13:48.55)
We were making jokes, John, before the cameras came on. We’re going to really test Victoria’s ADD reality here today. is a test run to see how her ADHD can handle Lucas with her.
John (13:55.792)
Yeah.
John (14:05.532)
But so, so, you know, I’m sorry, maybe I missed it. It’s okay to change your diagnosis and it’s okay to to to renegotiate it. and and I’ve done that. I think I think it’s important to try to get it right as best you can. We do make mistakes. I’ve been asked
before and I think Chris you have as well to make a diagnosis at court when you go to court may that may I not do that because you know that that’s going to enter into their permanent record court recordings and you don’t want to to label anybody yeah you don’t want to label anybody so
Chris (14:43.703)
yeah!
Chris (14:55.269)
Want to be careful there for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I’ve never had a concern or an over big worry about labeling per se. And I think a lot of therapists are terrified about that, you know, but the labeling is a part of what we do. And it, you know, like I said, we, this is not a show about just diagnosis, but we have to touch on that a little bit because we’re talking about switching things up as we develop and as we go along. bottom line, that really is okay. And one of the big points here, John, you just made.
Victoria (15:23.773)
Now a smaller ball Only a base ball No, base ball I don’t have a base ball A base ball
Chris (15:25.391)
This actually helps to prevent misdiagnosis. If you give yourself the flexibility to move with the information as you’re going along, then you really get it right, but you’re not always gonna get it exactly right the first go around. Victoria, I’m curious you as a newer and whatnot, how much pressure do you have when you first meet with somebody to kind of get it right, to get a diagnosis, to get this thing on paper?
John (15:28.922)
Yeah.
Victoria (15:48.989)
I mean, I’ve always been under the same impression of like kind of what you’ve already said is that like because most of the time we’re billing insurance like we kind of have to give one at least that first row around and then but like honestly and I’m usually pretty open with my clients about like hey this is what we’re going with today based off the information that you’ve given me at this point. Well like as we continue to meet
like it could change and it could evolve or whatever. so I don’t necessarily think I, now maybe when I first started out, there was a chance that I probably felt some pressure to be like, my God, this has to be the right, the first girl around and like, I’m gonna get in trouble if it’s not. But I think I’ve kind of worked over and past that like over the years, especially,
Chris (16:24.923)
I love the word evolve, honestly.
Victoria (16:46.629)
like my time in agency and in my time now like in private practice.
Chris (16:49.755)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (16:56.079)
Yeah, which is a really good point. mean, you know, think clinicians, John, really feel this great pressure in agencies even a little bit more. Do you think like, you know, the Navy, military, all, mean, that, that, yeah.
John (17:03.52)
Yeah.
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in the military, that goes into your service jacket. And yeah. And you and that’s why a lot of people in the military, at least in the I dealt with Marine, Marine, Navy and Coast Guard folks, they get really they get very kind of, I think, rightfully paranoid about it that.
Chris (17:15.299)
yeah.
Victoria (17:22.393)
I’m going to
John (17:35.916)
This is going to follow them or the command will know and find out. you have to be very careful, I think.
Chris (17:40.655)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (17:46.054)
But engage because this ability to differentially diagnose again, helps us all throughout the therapy relationship to make sure we’re getting it right, to make sure this is operating in the way with new information as we go along. So bottom line, it is okay to change things up, to move things around and to engage in a way where we move with the information. Differential diagnosis is okay. And because diag…
John (17:58.165)
Victoria (18:11.649)
And even right Right and for those people who don’t know in our handy-dandy trusty therapy Bible, um Right
John (18:11.968)
Yeah, definitely. And I think you would not be doing your due diligence if you didn’t do differential diagnosis.
Chris (18:25.584)
Yep.
John (18:27.285)
All 1,050 pages.
Victoria (18:30.621)
There is actually even a section in our chain. I know if you can see that called differential diagnosis under each description so like right now I’m on the The OCPD and it lists the like it has a section that lists the differential diagnoses and honestly and I don’t know if y’all do this but what I do sometimes when I am diagnosing someone I pull out my
Chris (18:51.547)
Right.
Victoria (19:00.861)
Bible and I like go through these differential diagnoses with my clients to like so that they’re also aware that like okay sometimes like these are some things that I’m also looking at.
John (19:14.549)
You, I agree, you have to use discretion. However, sometimes you have a client that basically wants to, well, that’s what I am. That’s what, yeah. Yeah.
Victoria (19:20.869)
Yes.
Victoria (19:24.827)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris (19:25.615)
Come in with diagnoses now, yeah, yeah. I want you to call me this.
Victoria (19:29.605)
Yes, I mean, you definitely, you definitely have to like, be aware of that, but for if you feel like it’s comfortable, or even if you don’t, even if you don’t, even if you don’t like have to go over it, you can even just go through it yourself as a therapist. Like you don’t even have to go through it with your client.
Chris (19:48.988)
Yeah, that is a very helpful thing, particularly I can remember early on when I was working, you know, as a newer clinician, that section in our diagnostic and statistical manual, that’s what they were all holding up y’all in the YouTube version here, you know, the books and that there’s a whole section just like Victoria said, and that really helps you to think through like, what did I miss it? And then did I should have thought of that? And you ask different questions, maybe get different pieces. It’s a, with every diagnosis, our whole system.
lines out other possibilities that this may be as well. So it helps the clinician. Victoria, I love what you’re saying. If the client is involved with that, they feel a part of it. And then we can really, as we say on the show, the human emotional experience, which we endeavor to figure out together. And I say that because we do that in session also.
John (20:38.448)
I think also there’s the algorithm. The DSM-5-TR is actually an algorithm. We all talk about algorithms now. And we are an algorithm ourselves because I’ve been working with the DSM since it was DSM-3. And that’s how many years? Since 1979, 1980.
Chris (20:50.203)
Yeah. Yeah.
John (21:07.428)
That’s a long time. And yeah, and I’ve internalized a lot of that. I’m not perfect, but I sort of know where to go. Yeah.
Chris (21:09.005)
It is.
Chris (21:17.103)
Same, absolutely same for me. I started with DSM 3 revised. It was a little bit after that. And it’s difficult because there’s so many overlapping symptoms. There’s so many overlapping components. If you have a lack of motivation, we know that’s definitely a part of depression, but anxiety can kind of bring that in too. Sometimes you have this anxiety situation, generalized anxiety or something like that, and it’s wearing people out mentally.
John (21:22.33)
Yeah.
John (21:36.527)
Right.
Chris (21:44.665)
and they feel a lack of stamina, a lack of motivation, but it’s an overlapping thing. What’s that?
Victoria (21:47.837)
ADHD? ADHD?
Chris (21:52.943)
How does that have overlapping stuff?
Victoria (21:54.885)
No, I’m saying it also has a thing for lack of motivation sometimes.
Chris (22:00.912)
Yeah, it spans across different things. it’s complicated, isn’t it? To really get it right, to do diagnosing the pressure that we have right off the get-go because of insurance to be medically necessary. we need to give ourselves a break and to understand this may take some time to kind of get through it. And so you start off sometimes with like adjustment disorder and go to other things from that because that’s a basic diagnostic.
diagnosis and then move into like what other things might be. So this is just a little bit of behind the scenes. This is how we make up our secret sauce, if you will, for doing what we’re doing, you know, with diagnosis. Okay. So I think we probably could do a whole nother show and we have a show on diagnosing earlier on. Let’s get off of this and begin to get to OCD versus OCPD.
Victoria (22:40.561)
Right.
Victoria (22:45.671)
Frig Frig.
Chris (22:58.319)
and how that can be so confusing for people. So first of all, personality disorders. One of the two of you, take a stab. What is different? Why do we have a section of personality disorder?
Victoria (23:11.319)
I mean.
Chris (23:11.739)
and I’ll give you my theory about it.
Victoria (23:16.539)
because their mental health struggles affect their personality. It’s the simplest.
John (23:22.446)
Well, they’re an early age, aren’t they? They come at a very early age when the personality is being formed. that’s something that, Victoria, I sense that this occurs sometime after childbirth and in the first three or four years where it starts to develop. And it’s almost like
Chris (23:23.269)
There’s dip, there’s more.
Chris (23:29.203)
Right
Victoria (23:46.833)
Yeah.
John (23:52.68)
And the problem with it is that it’s to the core of the person, personhood. And so it’s notorious. I don’t want to cause people not to have hope, but it’s difficult to treat a lot of times. And medication doesn’t necessarily work with it. Do nothing. They may be depressed. They may have anxiety. And so that could help.
Victoria (23:54.813)
you
Chris (24:09.081)
Yes, they really are.
Chris (24:13.787)
That’d do nothing.
John (24:21.633)
But as far as changing the personality itself, it’s very tough. It’s rough work.
Chris (24:27.995)
this is a perfect place to introduce my theory that i think i’ve talked about on the show john i think you and i connected about it you know where i’m going?
John (24:34.701)
Yeah, yeah, I think I do. So go with it,
Chris (24:38.105)
Yeah, dude, man, I, I realized this not too long ago, and I don’t hear anybody talking about it. But I’m developing a little bit of a theory in my brain that like, all of the personality disorders, Victoria, they’re different section. They’ve, they’ve, they’ve, they’ve been held off into a different category of diagnosing than all the other things that we diagnose. I there’s
Victoria (24:41.189)
movie.
Victoria (24:59.707)
You
Chris (25:02.969)
We’re confused about this. John, you just said something that’s kind of new to me. It happens earlier on in life. And we see that with core social experiences. But I really feel like all of the personality disorders, obsessive compulsive personality disorder, anti-social personality disorder, people usually, you the listener, you’ve probably heard of a couple of these more famous ones, the borderline personality disorder, but there’s schizotypal and schizoid personality disorder.
Victoria (25:06.845)
Please.
Chris (25:31.783)
All of these PDs, I feel like, are hormone related. I really feel like that the function is in the endocrine system.
John (25:33.389)
Avoid it.
John (25:37.569)
Histrionic, yeah. Narcissism.
Chris (25:42.681)
Narcissism Personality Disorder, I feel like that’s an endocrine system issue, I really do.
John (25:45.719)
Yeah.
John (25:50.923)
But it hasn’t been studied at all. And in fact, you try to do a word study or something like that, you just don’t see it. Yeah.
Chris (25:53.453)
No, it hasn’t.
Chris (26:01.347)
Yeah, think this is, but you know, every time that we’ve done revisions of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, even in Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 5, which we’re currently on, revised, I should say, they didn’t do anything with this whole section. All of the personality stores are exactly the same as they’ve been for a long time. And I think that’s because we don’t understand them. And I think that’s because we don’t understand the endocrine system. Does that sound fair?
John (26:18.229)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria (26:29.605)
Yeah. Well, I mean, the whole if you think about it, like the whole reason borderline people, borderline personality people were named borderline personality people is because they were literally on the border between the process and psychosis, or mean, neurosis and psychosis.
Chris (26:50.363)
Let’s say more about neurosis versus psychosis.
Victoria (26:52.933)
Okay, so psychosis is where you do not have a grasp on reality at all. Yeah. Whereas neurosis is like your things like anxiety, depression, ADHD, like those types of mental health diagnoses, because you’re like, even though you have struggles or you have hard times with the like certain things, you are still able to grasp reality. And so borderline personality people like
John (26:59.174)
reality.
Victoria (27:22.609)
they were on the border, on the borderline, they weren’t enough to like be considered fully psychosis, but then they also weren’t enough to be considered like fully neurosis. So they ended up with the name borderline personality disorder.
Chris (27:38.181)
Gotcha. Complicated, but yeah, I gotcha.
Victoria (27:41.511)
Well, that’s what I’m saying is like, I think that just goes to show like how much more it needs to be researched because like.
John (27:47.753)
Are we doing witchcraft? I think I could see with borderline personality being in the enderkin system and being that way, and especially how the emotions are just so up or down or empty or whatever. I don’t see it as much, let’s say, with somebody with
Victoria (27:51.133)
I mean, we could. Do you want to?
Victoria (28:03.515)
Eat your apple please. Or I’m gonna take it. Eat it.
Chris (28:12.496)
Yeah.
Victoria (28:15.421)
Please.
John (28:17.861)
ocpd for example but i could see it okay
Chris (28:21.023)
I love that, John. I love that. Let me, let me convince you. Let me, let me, let me, let me go through a little bit of this and see what you think about that. Having said that, because I’ve thought about this in preparation of this show. Okay. A little bit later on in our show, we planned on kind of giving some examples. Let me give an example of a comparison. So with OCD, okay, we get intrusive thoughts. We get compulsions. We get ritualistic behavior.
Victoria (28:28.589)
You have snacks in there. have a hat. Go look at your snacks.
John (28:32.04)
Okay.
John (28:47.463)
Chris (28:51.887)
This is all in one of the two, which by the way with OCD, you only need obsessions or compulsions. You do not need both. I think a lot of clinicians miss that as well. They feel like you have to have some compulsions and you just don’t. Yeah, you said that earlier. The example John I always use for that is a 12-year-old kid that I had one time. No compulsions, no anything whatsoever that I could see that would have told me OCD.
John (28:59.631)
Mm-hmm. Right.
John (29:05.457)
And that’s what I was saying. Right.
Chris (29:18.661)
And this was very earlier on in my career, Victoria. So I didn’t really have experience with this, but she was asking really, really inappropriate questions about sexuality, like really detailed questions. Her parents were freaked out and I was really trying to figure out why or what is going on with this. And, what we kind of deduced is that she had OCD. She was just obsessed with this particular area. Okay. So she didn’t have any ritualistic behavior. She didn’t have any intrusive.
Victoria (29:40.999)
Stop.
Chris (29:47.322)
Well, she had the intrusive thoughts. didn’t have any compulsions, I meant to say. It was really wrapped around all of these intrusive thoughts and just stuck thinking. So it was clearly OCD. So that’s what OCD looks like. But OCD, PD, the personality type is a pervasive pattern of control and perfectionism. Okay. You really get dialed into the details and you want to make things perfect. So often you see things as beneficial.
by the individual. For example, an OCD person is going to say, I must wash my hands or something terrible will happen. OCD makes you believe that that’s where you get the compulsion. But the personality disorder is I must wash my hands the right way because that’s how it should be done. Right. There’s a personality element there.
John (30:40.546)
And everyone else should do this too.
Chris (30:43.277)
and everyone else should do this and if you don’t do this it’s a problem. There’s a lot of that up and down emotion in that John also. Just like with Borderline. Antisocial is the same way if you think about it.
Victoria (30:43.869)
Yes, yeah. Yep.
John (30:54.054)
Mm-hmm.
John (30:58.864)
Yeah, but do OCPD people, people with this, do they sometimes come across as not being empathetic or?
Chris (31:09.371)
Absolutely
Victoria (31:09.531)
Yes, yes.
Chris (31:12.815)
Yeah, Victoria Goh, what is the actual experience like of being around the personality disorder of OCD?
Victoria (31:21.085)
Well, being around the personality disorder, they’re so like focused on that like this is perfect, this needs to be perfect, like this needs to be like we need to follow like all these strict things, we’re super devoted. So yeah, then it can like draw their attention away from other people or other things happening.
which can appear to other individuals as like, this person is not empathetic. they don’t really, you know, they’re only so focused on this one thing that they’re trying to do.
John (31:56.229)
And they may not be able to understand why other people don’t have that same passion. Yeah.
Chris (31:56.475)
This is w-
Victoria (32:02.469)
Yes!
Chris (32:03.705)
Right. It’s an intensity level. I mean, we’re talking about perfectionism, but it’s to the point of dysfunction or really hard. We’re talking about a preoccupation, not just a micromanager, but the rules have to be followed in order, in precise fashion. There’s lists and schedules.
Victoria (32:05.915)
Bye!
Victoria (32:12.079)
John (32:24.74)
nurse ratchet and one flew over the cuckoo’s nest.
Chris (32:28.955)
WHAT?!
John (32:30.774)
nurse ratchet. On one what I’ve made a movie reference. was one of Jack Nicholson’s greatest roles. Yeah, basically she she followed every you had to follow the rules rigidly. And if you did, yes. And so she kept everybody in line. And she punished people because they would not follow the rules.
Chris (32:32.091)
There’s Ratchet? I don’t know that.
Chris (32:37.711)
Yes, I know the movie.
Chris (32:42.614)
What? Yeah?
Chris (32:49.935)
Very rigid.
Victoria (32:57.693)
You can go out there and watch a movie.
Chris (32:58.587)
punishing that’s strong word, you know the reluctance to delegate like I can’t let anybody else do this because It’s got to be done right and they won’t do it, right?
John (33:00.332)
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria (33:07.452)
Yes. Or the only way I’ll let other people do this is if they submit to the way that I want it to be done.
John (33:09.528)
I’m the only one that can do this, yeah.
John (33:18.264)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (33:18.523)
I can bust Neil a little bit here. Yes, Neil, I’m talking to you. So we were doing, he was posting the show on the website, right? Now I’m not saying, let me be clear, Neil does not have OCD PD. So I’m not saying that brother, but he was posting the show online on our website, right? And I took over that role, take a little bit off of him. And I began to do that, but I could tell he was very anxious. You remember Neil? He’s like, will you get the format right? Will you make sure it’s in the right space?
Victoria (33:23.004)
Ha ha!
Chris (33:48.123)
Do you have to push the delete and then the enter so that it looks right? You remember that Neil? Yeah. Right.
Neil (33:54.272)
Of course I do, but you figured out your system. But I had been doing it for so long and I had to let it go and it was a good release from my side. So yes, I do remember the struggle.
Chris (34:04.238)
Exactly.
Right? So that’s a normal struggle. That’s not a big deal. This happens with a micromanager. I’m not even saying Neil was a micromanager. He was just used to it and he wanted it to stay the same way. We all feel this way. So with OCDPD, there’s an intensity level with that. Neil probably would not have allowed me to take it over because he knows I wouldn’t have done it right and the rules have to be followed rigidly. It has to look the same. Yeah.
John (34:33.792)
Let me give you an example. When I was in the Navy, everything revolves about when I was in the Navy. we had come from the command chaplain’s office. It was not the admiral chaplain, but it was one of the functionaries came up and said, you have to be accountable for every 15 minutes of your time. we were sent, this is no lie.
This is the absurdity of it. It’s like something out of mash. Where we had to account for every 15 minute intercals. there was, we did it for about three weeks and there was a rebellion of chaplains that said, we can’t do this. We can’t do our jobs. And yeah, and that was recorded.
Chris (35:07.866)
Haha!
Chris (35:13.651)
my gosh.
Chris (35:27.227)
Gotcha.
John (35:31.711)
it came about as this guy, this was the chaplain who thought that this would be a way that we could prove that we are fully accountable of our time. And all we were doing was recording the, just writing down our 15 minutes and it just was ridiculous. We couldn’t do it. Yeah. And the command chaplain put an end to that, put the kibosh on that. So,
Chris (35:53.474)
exhausting sounds exhausting
Chris (36:00.112)
Because honestly, know, personality disorders operate in public and that may have been a really… Do you think that was an example of OCD? OCPD?
John (36:09.596)
OCPD, I do think so. And he was very meticulous about following the rules.
Chris (36:11.397)
Ye- Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (36:17.753)
Okay, let me give you a word. And this comes from the research of this episode. I never thought of this this way, but going back to your skepticism, about the endocrine system, okay? Think of this. This is an egocentronic nature. That’s a cool word, right? Now you’re the wordsmith. What does egocentronic mean to you,
John (36:29.801)
Mm-hmm.
John (36:34.613)
Yes Yeah, that’s
That means self, ego means I, and syntonic, dystonic is, gosh.
One’s outward and one’s inward. Okay? So, all right. Am I getting that right? Okay.
Chris (36:57.018)
Okay.
I think so. The syntonic nature of this is that these traits feel correct to the person and we’ve already kind of said that.
John (37:05.861)
Right, right. It does feel correct to the person. Okay.
Chris (37:09.115)
They often see their way as the right way. Now, what does that sound similar to? Narcissistic personality disorder? Anti-social personality disorder? Borderline personality disorder has a little bit different flavor. But John, I kind of feel like this this syntonic, this ego-syntonic, this I have it right and no one else does or even can is a common thread in these diagnoses.
John (37:14.322)
huh.
personality. Yeah.
John (37:25.947)
Okay
John (37:35.127)
huh. Yeah, there was a play by Ipsen called the enemy of the people and the guy was right about the drinking water was being polluted in a Scandinavian country, but he just alienated everybody because he was at, he had to be right. And he alienated everybody. So that would be something that would be that ego, syntonic. Is that what I’m
Victoria (37:51.082)
Be careful dude.
Chris (38:04.571)
I think so. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, you’re saying that, Victoria, remember, I think we talked about this before when I was getting to know you and we were talking about the indicator of what you might have missed when you have a personality disorder. Do you remember what that indicator was? Have you used this yet?
John (38:04.612)
hearing from you. Yeah.
Victoria (38:11.419)
Yeah.
Victoria (38:26.129)
the one that you use personally. Yeah, if they get on your nerves.
Chris (38:28.485)
Yeah.
Chris (38:31.963)
Absolutely. Right? I have been in so many sessions when, look, you’re not going to bother me as a client. Like, I am here. I don’t, you know, have an opinion per se. It’s not a personality interaction. There’s some art to what we do. But sometimes, and I was talking to Victoria about this, it’s like somebody gets under my skin and it’s like that doesn’t happen normally. If that ever happens, they really got to me, John.
Victoria (38:33.467)
Yeah, if you’re like, yeah.
Victoria (38:42.748)
Yeah.
Victoria (38:46.907)
Right.
Victoria (38:52.154)
right now mommy
John (38:59.644)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Chris (39:01.411)
and they get under my skin, they’re aggravating me and I’m like, boom, wait a minute, I know what happened. I missed and always I go back and I get questions and diagnostic questions and symptoms. And guess what I find, generally speaking, when that happens? A personality disorder.
John (39:17.966)
Right. Yeah. So in other words, if they make, if you want to wring their necks is that they.
Chris (39:19.545)
And I think that’s a common thread.
Chris (39:24.827)
Yeah, a little bit, you know, and, and even, yeah, it’s just because it’s so like your commander in the Navy was, was just aggravating and bothersome to people. Neil wasn’t bothersome to me at all. When he did that, it was like, I get it, Neil. I think I can do this. He saw me do it a few times. He let go of it and we’re good.
John (39:50.267)
Well, I was just thinking all the damage that the commander did.
Chris (39:56.152)
wow! You’re reliving?
John (39:59.461)
Yeah, I got a knot in my stomach because that was like, it was just unbelievable.
Chris (40:08.835)
It’s gut-wrenching. You know? So Victoria, how does this affect relationships, do you think, honestly?
John (40:11.429)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Chris (40:20.665)
Yeah! OCPD!
Victoria (40:23.869)
I mean it definitely is. We see that you’re hiding dude. We can’t see you. anybody sees Lucas let me know. But I mean yeah because it can like the personality part of it can keep you so preoccupied with like the structure and like the perfectionism that like you might end up neglecting your partner or like
John (40:34.116)
Okay.
Victoria (40:53.373)
putting certain things or starting fights type of thing because they’re not doing something the way that you think they should be doing. And so then like, yeah, it can cause tension. can cause you might end up, like I said, neglecting certain parts of our relationship. But yeah, yes.
Chris (41:15.183)
It’s consuming.
It’s absolutely consuming. Now we can see on the YouTube that Victoria’s being a little consumed as a mom with Lucas. That’s wonderful. I love the real life by the way. Right? But this is normal. And the types of situations, John, you’re literally reliving a commander and getting a knot in your stomach because that’s not
Victoria (41:19.378)
I mean…
John (41:36.665)
Yeah, I remembered something from 35 years ago.
Chris (41:40.379)
That’s right. mean, these are personality disorders. This is the intensity level. Like moms are not going to be frustrated with their kids. It’s not like gets under your skin. It gets frustrating. It gets tiresome. It gets all of that. But I’m really trying to drive home. Yeah.
Victoria (41:43.867)
You want to see the work?
John (41:46.574)
Yeah.
John (41:58.585)
I think the other thing too is when you deal with someone, work with somebody with an OCD condition, it torments them. They don’t want to be like this. They don’t want to be like that. They don’t want to have that. But an OCD, a PD person is not necessarily aware of it. Or if they are aware of this, it’s they again question why isn’t everybody like me?
Chris (42:09.367)
Mm. Yeah. Right.
Chris (42:25.657)
Yeah, it’s a big difference.
John (42:28.106)
Yeah, it’s a big difference and I think that drives, I think that can drive you crazy.
Victoria (42:32.379)
Well, did I ever tell you Chris that the reason that I thought of this is because I have a client who we are in the process of like diagnosing her with the personality. And she’s actually very, I mean, she’s on board with it. She agrees. But I mean, yeah.
Chris (42:45.616)
You did not.
Okay.
Chris (42:56.997)
So she has some insight, actually. That’s a big step.
Victoria (43:01.861)
And that’s what I mean, we haven’t officially added it to her like chart because we’re still like discussing it and exploring it. But.
Chris (43:07.066)
BREAK
John (43:09.963)
You’re negotiating, yeah.
Victoria (43:13.873)
But yeah, mean, it’s yeah, this person definitely had like she is she is almost like why but that’s what we’re running the oven is like she is very much of like why isn’t everybody else not like this? You know, why does why is everybody else not? Yeah. Yeah.
John (43:25.943)
I had a student that I worked with and even after I had retired from Montreat, but she would not receive any idea in any feedback that she was absolutely deleterious in her personality.
Chris (43:27.041)
the
John (43:56.203)
that would drive people away. She had actually been, she was actually kicked out three times out of the program. They kept taking her back and eventually they had to finally say, can’t do this because she was so resistant to change. so she would be willing to, she had already had gone through two other programs before and had been asked to leave.
Chris (44:14.587)
Mm.
John (44:24.858)
And so she was absolutely obsessed with the idea that she was a great counselor and that everybody was wrong and no one appreciated her. And she could have figured that out.
Chris (44:25.071)
Wow, right.
Chris (44:31.291)
Okay.
Chris (44:42.011)
Here’s something that John listening to you there triggers into my brain. When I know we’re moving back and forth between OCD and OCPD, but hopefully you’re getting an elongated view of the differences here. Because in OCD, there’s kind of a jump up in intensity level that I oftentimes go through teaching with clients. And what this intensity level is what parents learn with a little kid with OCD.
John (44:56.618)
Yeah.
John (45:06.87)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (45:12.229)
Like Victoria, if you had Lucas and Lucas has OCD, you would go and do a nighttime ritual and you would, you would say, okay, Lucas, I love you. Good night. I’ll see you in the morning. And if you don’t say that in that order, good night. I love you. I’ll see you in the morning. Then Lucas is going to go eight nuts and you’re to have an hour’s battle. Okay. But what happens is that kid grows up and he thinks the world around him.
Victoria (45:14.886)
Yeah.
Victoria (45:19.461)
Right?
Chris (45:39.726)
is going to subscribe to what he thinks needs to happen, which is, good night, I love you, I’ll see you in the morning. But Lucas is going to grow up and he’s going to realize, John, like you say, I don’t want to force people into that. I mature, I get out of that. But a personality disorder doesn’t. They don’t get out of that. They continue that. And it’s really prickly and difficult to deal with.
Victoria (45:40.859)
Smell my foot. Smell my foot. Smell it.
Hey.
Chris (46:07.643)
So this is why one of the reasons we tell parents don’t do that order. Yes, Victoria, you’re going to have a long hour battle with Lucas, but you’re really helping him understand the personality piece. You don’t have to require other people to comply with your compulsion. So with OCD, it’s like you can manage that, John, people don’t want to be like that. But when you add this personality element,
Victoria (46:16.507)
Smell my elephant. Smell it. Smell it. Smell it.
and see you there
John (46:32.53)
Victoria (46:35.099)
Ha!
Chris (46:36.057)
It’s almost like you can’t get out of that. You force people into your compulsions. Your rules. Your rituals.
Victoria (46:37.521)
Where my feet?
John (46:38.483)
Yeah, right, right, right.
Victoria (46:40.957)
Two. Two.
Mommy, what is that one? Mommy, put that one here and make it bigger. I’ll put that one up top, that one, and then I can do a set one. Mommy, and then I can do a set one. And then I can do a set one. No, they’re just small arms. I’m gonna do a set one.
John (46:50.065)
I’m wondering, I mean, it’s kind of like peeling the onion a little bit or peeling the grape because there’s some nuanced differences in that sort of thing. And so there’s an art to it that you’re able to make this determination. And again, going back to differential diagnosis. Yeah.
Chris (47:09.967)
I think so.
Chris (47:14.127)
Yeah. You know, I’ve never, I’ve, I’ve honestly, Victoria, you’re doing something I’ve never done. I’ve never diagnosed OCPD to be honest with you. I don’t know if I probably just missed it or for whatever reason, I’ve literally never diagnosed that. don’t think.
Victoria (47:15.237)
You are an alligator. What? Chomp chomp chomp chomp. Mommy watch this. Well and the only reason that I’ve… Mommy watch this. Okay I’m watching. The only reason that I’ve brought it up.
John (47:35.833)
Well, they probably don’t present themselves for counseling.
Victoria (47:39.813)
Yeah, wouldn’t. And honestly, how we got here, like this person, she’s made so much progress. But like that’s, yeah, I mean, she started therapy with me for like completely different things. And through the court, I mean, I’ve been seeing her for like a year or so now. And so like, but that’s the thing is it’s been a year or so, and we’re just now to this diagnosis. And like,
Chris (47:40.315)
Well that’s a thing!
John (47:41.965)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (48:07.097)
right
Victoria (48:08.901)
You know, and it, and honestly, like I said, it’s not even officially on, like I haven’t officially added it to like her chart or whatever that we have here. Like it’s, I mean, it’s still like a work in discussion, discussion, but like, yeah, I mean, it’s been a year and half and you know, she started therapy for completely other reasons.
Chris (48:29.999)
Yeah, that’s a perfect example of differential diagnosis and what I’m saying to young clinicians for sure. Like give yourself that grace, like Victoria’s doing. mean, this happens, John, all the time, yeah.
Victoria (48:41.585)
What? What?
I did put to my kid not to you
Chris (48:47.215)
I thought you said what Victoria? yes, Lucas is hanging with us. There’s a little segment that I want to do that kind of gets at this. So first of all, to illustrate this again, we’ve given several examples. Think about a 42 year old manager struggling to maintain relationships at work. Okay. Because he corrects others constantly. He refuses to compromise.
Victoria (49:12.381)
Put that on.
Chris (49:16.621)
is insistent on doing things properly, right? His spouse describes home life as rigid and exhausting. this is, he doesn’t see these behaviors drawn as problematic. Your commander didn’t see this as a problem. It’s a problem that everybody doesn’t follow the law, doesn’t follow the rules. And they’re holding high standards. This is prickly. This is difficult. This is gut wrenching.
John (49:29.707)
Right.
John (49:43.148)
I had an associate dean do the same thing at a unit.
Chris (49:48.347)
Well, you’ve been surrounded by this. He’s going through different stages of his life, Victoria.
John (49:51.756)
Well, you a I am I you may find this in a hierarchical organization. I mean, that’s I think you’ll see this happen more often there than you would. Let’s say you’re in private practice and maybe that’s why you haven’t seen it. I not diagnosed. I haven’t diagnosed it with clients at all.
Victoria (50:05.693)
You’re gonna have to use your hand, okay? What? Really? Right now? Huh?
John (50:19.018)
But I have seen it in personalities of people that I’ve worked with. Yeah. And their function.
Chris (50:23.323)
throughout life? Well, to your point, yeah, I’ve working managed care therapy for so long. You’re absolutely right. mean, I don’t think personality disorders will present the therapy a whole lot or very easily. I didn’t think about that, but you’re right. That makes a lot of sense. You’ll see this in agencies and Medicare or Medicaid scenarios and things like that. But if you think about this,
John (50:36.908)
Yeah.
John (50:42.581)
Yeah.
Chris (50:52.761)
This is problematic relationship. And so how do you deal with this? in marriage, for instance, I was looking at, you know, the book, John, through a therapist eyes, re-understanding your marriage, becoming your best as a spouse. How about that? Right. As, as, as one of the big areas of through a therapist eyes, the focus point becomes a really important piece. And I saw that in the books that I wrote. And so a partner with OCD can lose their sense of self.
John (51:05.181)
Yes
John (51:18.952)
huh.
Chris (51:22.725)
That’s powerful. Let say that again. A partner with someone with OCPD can literally begin to lose their self under the constant correction, the constant rigidity. It’s like abusive. There’s an abusive nature to this. There’s that push and pull and back and forth. Can you imagine John doing a personal budget at home with a spouse who has OCPD?
John (51:23.049)
Yeah.
John (51:50.345)
Yeah, I would. It would drive me nuts. mean, that how’s that for a technical term drive me nuts and go to the go to Looney Tunes. No, yet. I’ve you encounter. I think it’s an under diagnosed condition. I think I’m going back in my.
Chris (51:56.101)
That was maddening!
Chris (52:00.7)
You can’t take it!
Chris (52:12.859)
Probably.
John (52:16.744)
long time as a minister, ordained in ministry and various churches. I’ve seen it in church hierarchies. I’ve seen it in congregations with husband and wife, where the husband was very much convinced was OCPD, and the wife was submissive and was actually dependent. And so there was a dual
Chris (52:41.295)
Yeah, lost yourself.
Victoria (52:42.009)
Mmmmm Eat your fruit. Or not yet. Then leave it on the floor.
John (52:44.887)
a dual dynamic where she was dependent as a personality and yet she felt like she was always doing something wrong and was under that thralldom of this guy that was very controlling and was very rigid.
Victoria (52:51.247)
I put it right there.
Chris (53:00.699)
Yeah. Again, the term occurs to me is almost abusive. Now we use this term, Victoria, emotional abuse all the time. And I think people really overuse that word because when you’re in this type of a scenario with a partner, you literally have potential of losing yourself because you have to be submissive, John, you said. That’s a big word. You don’t even, you can’t even.
Victoria (53:05.422)
out.
Victoria (53:10.513)
Right.
John (53:24.295)
Yes.
Chris (53:28.847)
You can’t even interject the way that our parenting style is going to be, for instance. No, I know the right way to parent says the mom with OCPD and the husband sitting there saying, well, I mean, shoot, man, I give up. don’t, guess, yeah, we’ll go your way. We’ll just follow your direction. Yeah. Great. Deuces.
Victoria (53:38.693)
That’s my thing. Hey mommy, that’s my thing. Hey mommy, that’s my thing. Mommy, that’s my thing. Hey mommy, that’s my thing. Hey mommy, that’s my thing.
John (53:45.061)
Yeah, peace out. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (53:52.952)
And, that creates such disruption because another book component of John through a therapist, I was re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. See, John tells me Victoria, had to say this multiple times in the show, right? Seven times, but the couples are trying to work on shared goals, right? Love connections, family harmony, parenting styles, and
Victoria (53:59.655)
Where’s my thing? You’re in it up here. In the tower.
John (54:04.103)
Yes, all right
Seven times, seven times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (54:22.043)
When, a personality disorder person, you know, is driving these rigid details, these rigid rules, this ritualistic stuff, you know, it, it, you just give up. mean, you can’t, you can’t win. You can’t, you can’t discuss it because this person just keeps driving it home. They don’t have that OCD component where the OCD person doesn’t want to be this way with other people. The personality disorder almost wants to do that. I mean,
John (54:34.661)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Chris (54:51.383)
Even as I’m talking about I’m kind of like, man, that’s you get really to the nuts and bolts of it, Victoria, like I’m curious the history of your client, their spouse, have you guys talked about marriage there? I mean, is that that’s hard.
Victoria (54:58.695)
Yeah.
Victoria (55:04.014)
Yes, yeah, their spouse is also in therapy for his own for his own thing
John (55:10.734)
Chris (55:10.918)
Okay
Yeah.
Chris (55:18.789)
That was to, that was to Lucas, the listeners on the show. He didn’t say that to me.
Victoria (55:21.766)
Yeah.
Victoria (55:25.277)
But yeah, mean, marriages definitely come up in conversation and in sessions. And yeah, we have had to explore that side of things and finding what works best and how to navigate that for them as a couple.
Chris (55:48.153)
And here’s the real- ahead, John.
John (55:48.899)
No, no, I was just going to say, but the challenge would be if the person’s not open to change and changing their behavior or their thinking, it’s I don’t know that the partner that is having to live with an OCPD person would have to say, am I am I going to be able to
Victoria (55:52.615)
Huh?
Victoria (55:56.797)
Dude, sit on the floor. Sit on the floor.
John (56:18.21)
stay long in a relationship where there’s no satisfying, there’s no sense of one treating me like a human being. And very little of that.
Chris (56:29.403)
Very little of that. And, and, and think about, so you lose pieces of yourself. We’ve already said, but to go that a little further, even taking that further, this is your spouse. Now we’re talking about similar, but less intense with a boss or a friend, even her family member. But this rigidity dominates the partnership and the spouse can seem to feel absolutely unloved. The spouse can feel unseen.
John (56:42.622)
huh.
John (56:50.73)
huh.
John (56:56.481)
Chris (56:59.585)
unvalued. It’s like, I am being controlled here. This person is running me over. It’s a sticky yucky feeling from an emotional standpoint. And the OCDP person doesn’t even know they’re doing it.
John (57:15.714)
Right.
Chris (57:17.179)
They’re, really thinking they’re actually trying to be helpful. If I tell you the proper way to, to, to parent Lucas right now, Victoria, like I know what you should be doing and I tell you what you should be doing with Lucas right now. That’s pretty pushy of me. That’s right. I mean,
John (57:30.241)
the
Victoria (57:35.217)
Yeah, you might hear some choice words come out of my mouth if you do that.
Chris (57:39.803)
And it would be justified. But if you and I had a long-term relationship and I’m doing that and you know that that’s going to be the case and I’m going to push into that because my personality disorder goes there, I think you get to a point of just complete resigned. I can’t.
John (57:39.988)
Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria (57:48.957)
Yeah.
Victoria (57:57.053)
And that’s kind of what John was mentioning earlier with like the submission. Like then I just, you know, would end up submitting to whatever you’re telling me as a parent I should do. And because I just don’t feel like arguing with you or yeah, to like, or if everything does turn into an argument because you’re not going to understand that like not everybody thinks that way or not everybody would, you know, parent that way or whatnot. Also,
Chris (58:01.508)
W-W-W-W-
Chris (58:24.431)
The normal thinking- go ahead, sorry.
Victoria (58:26.737)
While I’m on here, I’m gonna have to peace out because little man has to go to bed soon. And since we’re not home, so we might be doing this from our house next time, just so that that way we don’t have to end early. But yeah, we gotta get home so he can go to bed. Okay, sorry, real quick question. Neil, do I need to leave my computer up?
Chris (58:31.781)
He has to go, okay.
Neil (58:49.203)
if you can.
Victoria (58:51.445)
Okay, I can’t help it if it goes to sleep, but I can at least leave it on. Okay, then I will just turn off my camera and mute myself. Okay, bye guys. Enjoy. Okay, Lucas, you want to say bye? Say bye, wave bye. Wave bye. Bye.
Neil (58:55.957)
Yeah, that’s fine.
John (59:01.876)
Yeah.
Chris (59:03.131)
Perfect, peace, thanks Victoria. Appreciate your, and by the way, these were examples, Victoria, these were examples. Wait a you gotta let me do this. Bye Lucas. Victoria, I gotta say, you’re a wonderful parent, okay? This was all example. A lot of patience.
John (59:04.512)
So, so far.
John (59:15.741)
Bye Lucas!
Victoria (59:16.253)
Yeah.
Thank you. Stop it. Stop it, dude. Yeah, OK, bye, guys.
John (59:23.486)
A lot of patience. So, Chris, if you were OCPD, would have said, you can’t do this. You can’t leave this messes with my paradigm. This…
Chris (59:38.214)
That’s right. The time is to the end of the show and you have to follow through and you know, I’m the boss. I’m the big guy. you know, we, we contracted from this time to this time and we have to go to that time. Yeah, no, you’re good point. And, know, usually people have flexibility and patience in life. We realize like things are different, you know, but, OCPD people just almost don’t have the capacity to do that. Right.
John (59:44.955)
Right.
John (59:59.71)
Okay.
John (01:00:06.546)
Yes. Right.
Chris (01:00:08.005)
So there’s lots of dangers in this and I hope people are getting the idea that, you know, yeah, this is a severity level that’s higher than normal. This is not a simple severity level.
Right? So what do do, John? How do we cope with this? How do we manage this?
John (01:00:30.366)
Well, in a perfect world, the OCPD person would have that self-awareness and that awakening would happen and that person would have the sense that I have to change. I don’t think that happens very frequently and it’s very, it’s improbable. But I do think the person that is in a relationship with an OCPD person can say,
and take stock and say and do some self-soothing and some self-affirmations that it’s not me, it really is them and that they do it with a sense of equanimity, a sense of saying I will accept the person being very rigid.
I will not accept it for my own. I will not be rigid with them. I will be generous and equanimous with them and I will love them and and they will love me as much as they are capable. if it. And this is from the spouse’s perspective, yeah. Right, I, you will have I have a friend.
Chris (01:01:41.925)
And this is the spouse. And this is from the spouse’s perspective.
or the friend or the employee even, you know.
John (01:01:54.791)
who sometimes is self-centered and doesn’t want you to talk and doesn’t interrupt and doesn’t know when to just say, let the other person talk. And yet I value that friendship enough to let that pass and not let it bother me.
Chris (01:02:14.171)
yeah right
Chris (01:02:21.051)
But you know, I honestly have a little bit of more, maybe it’s still a bit of naivete. I think it’s my eternal optimism, John. I really feel like if you’ve listened to this show, you will find people in your life that you’ve come across that are like this. But if you’re identifying this, I do believe that person has the ability to change. And I know you didn’t say that they don’t. You said it’s unlikely. It’s improbable.
John (01:02:27.74)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
John (01:02:47.299)
It’s improbable or unlikely, yeah.
Chris (01:02:49.807)
But I think there’s see, I actually love working with borderline personality disorder because I have found that we can absolutely with proper intervention.
John (01:02:59.685)
But that’s the one that you can get the most change with someone.
Chris (01:03:03.267)
Okay. Okay. Tell me more about that. I’m curious. I wouldn’t have thought that.
John (01:03:07.501)
No, it’s with the borderline personality disorder, you can actually get a, you can actually help facilitate change with them because of the people there is that sense because they’re so tortured, they don’t want to stay that way. They want to get out of that. so, yeah, so there’s a motivation, they’re suffering and
Chris (01:03:23.471)
Wow, okay.
Chris (01:03:30.747)
Okay, I see your point.
John (01:03:36.757)
makes it so that they want to get out of that paradigm.
at worldview.
Chris (01:03:43.578)
hear you. I hear you, but I can switch it too. I can switch it too to narcissistic personality disorder. I’ve had high functioning people that have literally begun to identify themselves as narcissistic personality. But it takes a lot of nuance, a lot of…
John (01:03:47.471)
Yeah, let’s push.
John (01:03:57.229)
Yeah.
John (01:04:02.422)
But those are mirror, those are, yeah, there’s, men borderline and there’s female narcissists, but, but you would see one more than the other. think narcissism and borderline are kind of a mirror conditions.
Chris (01:04:08.574)
yeah. Mm-hmm.
Chris (01:04:17.751)
Okay, and you see you see OCPD is very different
John (01:04:21.717)
I see it differently, But you know, I’m not the expert, so yeah.
Chris (01:04:23.257)
Okay, interesting.
Chris (01:04:27.621)
Well, we’re all experts here. I mean, really, and I’m learning from you. And honestly, John, I guess, again, I already said I haven’t diagnosed this. And I think you’re right. I just haven’t seen this clinically in private practice quite as much. I probably…
John (01:04:31.926)
Yes sir.
John (01:04:40.695)
Well, they elect themselves out of counseling. That’s what I think. So they select themselves out.
Chris (01:04:45.784)
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let’s stay on the segment and finish up with what do we do with this? you mentioned insight. I think that’s a huge piece of it. The person has to begin understanding and recognize that this perfectionism is creating conflict. It’s creating isolationism. And probably to your point, John, you know, they have to really begin to understand, you know, that this conflict is unnecessary. This disruption, I am causing this and I need to settle myself down.
John (01:05:00.087)
Okay.
John (01:05:05.291)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John (01:05:19.072)
Right.
Chris (01:05:19.899)
quote a long time friend of mine and colleague, Jeff Shook, I love you buddy, he’s retired now. I’ve been talking to him for years, but he really taught me that basically when you’re dealing with a personality disorder, if they stick around in therapy long enough to grow up, to mature emotionally, they get smoother.
John (01:05:35.447)
John (01:05:40.394)
Right. Okay. They’re able to adapt. You’re right. I think it was psychoanalysis with Freud, for example, and that school or the neo-Freudians, that would be, they would have that revelation that this is what they’re doing to themselves and to others. And so that they would be able to refrain from that, but it doesn’t necessarily free them. And I would hope
Chris (01:05:43.631)
Yes.
John (01:06:10.279)
that my heart, it’s truly as you see them, the mind body connection that you see with that, that there might be some sort of treatment that would be effective that would enable a person to develop the tools of empathy and self-awareness. Because empathy, if empathy goes, if they can get an empathy chip installed,
Chris (01:06:30.555)
Yeah, absolutely. And insight.
Chris (01:06:39.907)
Yeah
John (01:06:40.243)
then they would be, that they would actually be able to grow.
Chris (01:06:47.355)
And I think that’s what we’re doing in therapy, John. You know, we’re trying to look at the nuance of their life and to grow that awareness. you know, put yourself in the other person’s shoes. You know, how can you identify this conflict and this rigidity with rules, you know? And I think the OCPD person has the capacity to be able to do that. We have to get as a field into that process with them.
John (01:07:00.271)
huh.
Okay.
John (01:07:10.975)
So we’re not doing our jobs. I mean, it’s not that we don’t want to do our jobs. We just don’t know what the tools are. like trying to treat, we’re like a medieval doctor trying to treat some sort of infection with horse dung, for example. Which, yeah.
Chris (01:07:29.475)
I so. I think we nailed it. And please understand our field hasn’t been around for thousands of years. It’s a relatively new field. And again, I’ve already said these personality disorder components, we don’t understand all that great. And I think that’s in part because we haven’t even studied the endocrine system and what happens. So how do we educate the clients about that? So we have, I’m developing more through this conversation honestly in real time, a belief that we need to take some serious steps.
John (01:07:47.571)
Yeah
John (01:07:51.091)
huh.
John (01:07:56.851)
Well, that would be self-compassion. If you’re someone that lives in a family like that or with someone that you would show that self-compassion, yeah, it’s hard, but you do it.
Chris (01:08:04.324)
Yeah.
Chris (01:08:09.253)
Hard. Hard to do. But here’s another component of how do we cope with this. Big, big caption here. Avoid power struggles.
John (01:08:16.285)
Mm-hmm.
John (01:08:21.937)
Yeah, definitely.
Chris (01:08:23.685)
When you’re in a relationship with somebody and you kind of identify or they’re identifying OCPD, Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder, you really don’t need to get into power struggles. It’s not going to be pretty.
John (01:08:35.505)
Yeah, I agree with you and I think a person with OCD, you’re not going to be in that power struggle. So it’s very different.
Chris (01:08:43.387)
No. It’s very- Right! You’re right. OCD people, you know, they can shut it down. They’re like, okay, I know, you don’t need to clean that kitchen sink 20 times. Okay, I get it, get it, I’m sorry. But it feels like it do! An OCPD person is gonna be like, that’s the proper way! That’s the only way! That’s what needs to happen!
John (01:08:50.931)
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
John (01:09:02.467)
That’s the only way. That’s the way God would want it, you know. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (01:09:05.947)
right right it’s so powerful and yeah I think as a field we’re really kind of needing to catch up John and get this you know get this going a little bit. What else do we need to wrap up with? Boundaries is another big thing. How do you set boundaries? How do you manage that relationship? You’ve got to be able to say no when you mean no and yes when you mean yes and if you’re in a relationship with someone with OCPD
John (01:09:14.704)
Yeah.
Chris (01:09:34.137)
and they’re telling you the only way to parent your child is to do this. You’ve gotta be able to hold that line, John.
John (01:09:40.195)
So in other words, it’s again, it’s an arc and it’s also a skill that one would have to learn. And that is how do you assert yourself without coming across aggressively? Because as soon as you, as long as you’re aggressive, that person is not going to, is actually going to reify that boundary. And then they’ll push you back and push you down and beat you down. Whereas if you would, if you,
Chris (01:09:51.319)
Absolutely.
Chris (01:10:00.316)
Because now you get into the power struggle.
John (01:10:10.319)
if you step outside of the game, so to speak, then they’re kind of, they’re going to be uncertain about where they stand. So that’s for.
Chris (01:10:22.619)
me ask you a question. genuinely don’t know the answer to this and I’m curious, John, because I’m hoping that you do. How much do you think OCD PD is found in domestic violence?
John (01:10:25.901)
I don’t either.
John (01:10:37.766)
I would think it’s quite a bit. yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, well, I don’t know. I’m wondering, because a lot of domestic violence, there’s substances that are used quite a bit. Would an OCPD person necessarily be?
Chris (01:10:41.551)
Yeah? I never thought of that before. Have you?
John (01:11:04.595)
Epistemias? Not epistemias? Would be a user? An abuser? I don’t know.
Chris (01:11:10.807)
substances? Yeah I wonder what the correlation is between addiction and alcohol abuse if not addiction and OCPD. That’s probably a thing because they’re stressed out too. They got to find a way to cope.
John (01:11:17.101)
Yeah. right. Well, that’s a good research topic, a good dissertation I should have done. So yeah.
Chris (01:11:26.649)
It really is, isn’t it? I think it is. Man, think in winding down here, speaking to our field, we have a lot of work to do in this area. That is really clear to me through this conversation. You know, let’s move to the last segment of the show. call it the shrink rack up the shrink wrap up. This is where we take a, a little friendly competition moment to sort of wrap up the show, summarize the show.
John (01:11:35.339)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris (01:11:54.502)
We each take a turn and Neil gets to decide who kind of did a better wrap up. So the shrink wrap up, I guess we’re head to head on this one, John. Well, you want to play rock, paper, scissors, see who goes first?
John (01:12:03.725)
I don’t care. I’ll say that a person with those that that we need to approach the OCPD person with compassion, with a seeking of understanding, even though they may not display that to us. I think it’s possible to live with somebody with OCPD and be in a relationship. But I think
can be very challenging. I’m hoping that there’s going to be more research in that and help so that we might be able to find a way to assist people through treatment.
Chris (01:12:50.841)
love that. Yeah, I think one of the biggest things we need to start with is identifying this and it’s hard to identify and so give yourself some grace as a clinician but then also just as a person you may have OCD PD but then when you identify this I have hope for us and the people that we serve that we absolutely can identify the characteristics and help you to gain insight about this.
so that you can move through some of the strategies in the relationships and improve them so that you’re not having a constant battle or constant pain that creates 30 years later John has a gut wrenching feeling and not in his stomach about a person whom he related to. So I think that we can make an impact on that, but we have to be really on point and careful with the nuance and how we do that. But there is hope about this. This is hard, but it’s doable. All right.
John (01:13:33.269)
John (01:13:45.653)
Yeah, I’m gonna like
Chris (01:13:47.737)
I’ll turn it over to you Neil, how’d we do brother?
Neil (01:13:50.464)
Those are two really, really good recaps. I think that for today, based on the show and how we talked about it, I like Chris, I like yours today. So you got this one, Chris. I really should be keeping track of this.
Chris (01:14:01.328)
YAY
Chris (01:14:06.824)
You need to start taking a little tally, I think so. I’m gonna ask you to do that. We’ll get a special prize at the end of the year, John, maybe.
John (01:14:14.651)
Yeah, you know what Neil, you’re full of beans. I’m right. And you’ve got to conform to my way of thinking and acting. Okay.
Chris (01:14:24.271)
Wow.
Neil (01:14:25.504)
Well, if you didn’t do the shrink wrap up the correct way, I would have given it to you, but since you didn’t…
John (01:14:30.153)
I think we understand. I think we got it. Yeah. Okay. All right. Hey, God bless. I’ll see y’all. Thank you. Okay. Okay.
Chris (01:14:31.995)
I think that is an example of OCD PD that is OC PD in action man. Good stuff. stuff. Absolutely John. It’s lovely to see you stay on. Don’t don’t leave so quickly this time real quick by the way, but good to see it to the audience. Thank you for your patience. We’re learning a new platform. We got childcare with Victoria. Hopefully that wasn’t too disruptive. We’ll get better at this platform. I think as we get comfortable with with what we’re doing so we will see you guys next week.
Stay well until then. Take care.
John (01:15:04.713)
Thank you.