In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we explore The Value of Vulnerability – a theme made even more urgent in light of recent tragedies, from a fatal stabbing in Charlotte to school and public shootings. Vulnerability is often mistaken for weakness, but as research and real-life experience show, it’s the foundation of trust, empathy, and authentic connection in relationships, therapy, and community. We reflect on how being open about our struggles can deepen friendships, strengthen marriages, and even improve mental health treatment, while also unpacking the risks that make it feel so difficult. Join us as we ask: When have you allowed yourself to be truly seen, and how did it change you? This conversation challenges us all to reconsider what it means to live wholeheartedly – with courage, honesty, and resilience.
Tune in to see the Value of Vulnerability Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- When was a time you felt vulnerable with someone, and how did it impact the relationship?
- Do you tend to see vulnerability as weakness, or as strength? Why?
- What risks and rewards come with being open about your struggles, especially in therapy or relationships?
Links referenced during the show:
https://hbr.org/2020/01/why-vulnerability-can-be-a-strength-for-leaders
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #327 Transcription
Neil (00:04.366) Alright, I think we are trying to make sure that we're live. Making sure it's connecting. Okay, getting ready to actually click the live button on YouTube. Alright, clicking live now. Go ahead. Chris (00:23.538) All right, hello, good afternoon, good morning, good evening. Whenever you find this episode of Through a Therapist Eyes, we are sitting here on a somber day, to be honest, in the States. This is 9-11, but as we get into going here, you'll see that it's a somber day for more than one reason. we are on September the 11th, 2025, with the topic today that is going to be the value of vulnerability. This is episode 327. So this is where we get information to disseminate about mental health and substance abuse from a panel of therapists, knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way. We got Mr. John Nelson Pope from Braden, Florida, hanging out with us, sir. How are you doing today? John Nelson Pope (01:12.568) Good to see you all. Chris (01:14.243) You're a little tired. Let's try that again. How you doing today? John Nelson Pope (01:18.764) Yeah, I'm doing well. Thank you. I'm going to become bigger than life, but it is a somber day. Yeah. Chris (01:20.402) Yeah, really is and we can't escape that. Mr. Neil Robinson is coming out for at least the beginning of the show from behind the curtain. How are you, Neil? Good. Neil (01:36.878) Today was a good day, week's almost over, so yeah, not bad. Chris (01:40.851) Indeed. So we are going to be talking about the value of vulnerability with the three questions to think about in the show. Vulnerability is a big deal in our fields, a big deal in life, it's a big deal in relationships. So when was the time you felt vulnerable with somebody and how did it impact the relationship? Okay. Two, do you tend to see vulnerability as weakness or as strength and why? And then three, what risks and rewards come? with being open about your struggles, especially in therapy or relationships. These are the things that I, we try to get you to think about things through the show and, you know, kind of interact with us through the YouTube live we fire up at about 6 p.m. to 6.30 on Tuesdays. We have decided we're gonna take a little bit of a break. We're gonna be good to ourselves, particularly probably after today's somewhat somberness. And we will not record a show next week. So there's that. Look, we try to entertain you little bit. We try to give you good information. We try to help you along your journey of wellness with mental health. Your job is to click, subscribe, tell a friend, we really want your help. We want to grow and get this to more people and that makes a big difference really. Just hit the like button even if you don't like it. John, how many stars? John Nelson Pope (03:03.342) We give this five stars and just make sure that you even take a little bit of time and write a review, a mini review. And I think that will help raise us up in the ratings. Chris (03:11.932) There you go. Chris (03:18.428) So this is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. Look, we're gonna do a segment on, you know, the current events. They have been rough as of late, fellas. I mean, you might not even know that they all happened. I don't know what you follow and how dialed in you are, goodness, there's first, this stabbing event in our back neighborhood, man. We are right next to Charlotte, North Carolina, where, the events, you know, unfolded, where there was a stabbing, to a 23 year old, Ukrainian woman that go ahead, John. John Nelson Pope (04:00.216) think, I think. Chris (04:09.521) You there, John? John Nelson Pope (04:11.086) no, I think we're breaking up. I'm not hearing you all. And y'all are frozen in time. Sorry. Chris (04:20.898) That's okay. hopefully is gonna figure it out. I see you fine, John. So I'm not sure what that is about. Bear with us, we're still trying some new platforms. We got John in Florida, so we're getting on these platforms and doing this online is new to us in this way anyway. So Irana, did I pronounce this right? Neil, help me out, man. Irana Zarucka, Irana. Neil (04:47.566) Yeah, I don't know. That's hard to think that was pretty close. John Nelson Pope (04:50.861) Yes. Chris (04:53.966) Irina Zartusko, she was literally stabbed to death on a normal ride, normal day in the transit system in Charlotte. And then there was actually another school shooting. I barely even knew this happened. And I'm not worried about the details of the events. I'm not worried as much about. Yeah, well, Evergreen High School specifically in Colorado, at least two students with gunshot wounds are known and. John Nelson Pope (04:58.763) huh. John Nelson Pope (05:10.414) That was in Denver. Chris (05:21.596) believe the shooter was taken down. And the details don't matter to me as much as what is going on. Of course, we have a weird date now that we know in infamy in the United States, 9-11. So we honor the lives of those fallen that day and the tragic deaths. And guys, this is going on all around the world. mean... You know, we have a lot of events in countries around the world. This is not myopically just a United States issue. And then we have the dramatic and utter tragic public shooting of a gentleman named Charlie Kirk received a single shot that was heard, which was believed to have been fired from the roof of a nearby Loessi Center. building overlooking the quad where he was just doing his passion, you know? mean, whether you agree with him or not, guys, I happened to find this guy just on YouTube. I've kind of realized YouTube is like algorithmically show after show after show that I want to watch. They keep feeding me. So I'm watching YouTube now when I should be sleeping. And I came across this guy's work. He's just facilitating dialogue. He's facilitating mass dialogue. He's facilitating mass dialogue that's massively needed. And for that, someone disagreed and for some reason we have emotional permission much more readily, it seems, to execute these horrific realities. What I thought I'd do, I've had a chance to kind of prep my brain at least for 24 hours a little bit on this. So I'm to go first, but we're just going to take a long form, say whatever comes to our mind about this. We have two therapists and a brilliant man, Neil Robinson, to give you just, you know, some thoughts and maybe ideas and just a reality pause for what's going on. you know, we first, cannot allow ourselves to be Chris (07:40.551) happening what is normal in human experience. And that is to protect ourselves, to become numb to the realities that are happening. And that's probably one of the most dangerous things here, I feel. As a human race, we're experiencing connecting from all around the world all at once in a way that human beings have never really experienced before. I happen to very much believe that that's a big part of all of this. And even more so and eerily I can foresee this actually being worse and possibly even much worse. And that's not a clickbait fear mongering thing. That's when you don't know what to believe, when you don't know what to see is real or not, you're in a space of in clarity. You're in a space of not knowing. And we're in a space of not knowing. We fill in the gaps as human beings with the worst possible. gap filler because we're in a state of fear. Our systems are self-protecting. We have probably very appropriate music playing, John. I don't know if you're doing that, but we're in a place of fearfully accepting what is going on around us. And so I think when we think about some of the answers or some of the things to do, John Nelson Pope (09:11.374) That was me. I'm sorry, guys. So. John Nelson Pope (09:19.456) Uh-huh. Yeah. Chris (09:26.674) John, you'll be with us to make your comments in a little bit, but you and I go back a ways. I remember when we had what we call it insane asylums. I remember when we had facilities and they all kind of right when my car started broke down and we put them all into community and created community mental health centers. Mentally health people are a low proportion of violence that we know. John Nelson Pope (09:39.886) yeah. Chris (09:55.987) The Charlotte transit stabbing is just unacceptable as a society to allow that to happen. And of course the shootings and all that we see with that. So there's a lot of tough things that are facing us, but I really have faith in humanity. I have faith in pendulum swinging and I have faith in the ingenuity of human beings. And I have faith in God too. I'll put that squarely out there that, We as a human race just need a little bit time to figure out these massive changes and get grounded again. And I'm looking for that to happen. That's what I got guys. Neil, John, what are you thinking? John Nelson Pope (10:43.906) You know, I'm thinking that everyone, we've become far too tribal in our friend groups or identifying with groups. And I think this is part of the problems. We don't have dialogue. I'm old enough to remember. It's never been perfect. Never been perfect. But even in the 60s growing up, there was dialogue. between the Republicans and the Democrats. I'm alluding to or conservatives or liberals or the progressive branches. That seems to have gone away entirely. And it seems like the pendulum has gone a lot more to one extreme and then to the other. Hopefully sanity will prevail and that people can actually see what their colonality is. Right now we're just self-identifying with whatever tribe we feel comfortable in and we don't engage in critical thinking, we don't engage in compassion or empathy and I think that's part of the issues there that's one of the reasons why we're so following such extreme thoughts and actions. And you had mentioned, I believe, how that sometimes plays out with extremist groups or individuals. I think that we need to also be able to do some honest soul searching and reflection that we try to refrain from hurting one another intentionally. We can keep it to ourselves, we can be civil, and there needs to be a return to civility or civilness. The other thing about the man, the young man, he was 33, 34, was arrested, spent some Chris (13:04.07) Yeah. Neil (13:09.359) 31. John Nelson Pope (13:11.34) significant time in prison. It was the man who assaulted and killed, mean, allegedly, though I think it was witnessed on camera, the young woman. think a lot of, we could say, well, let's put them in what used to be called insane asylums or the... Chris (13:26.802) Yeah, it's pretty clear. . John Nelson Pope (13:41.006) or actually have them incarcerated in psychiatric hospitals. And you know, we're not living in 1970 or 1960 anymore. I think there has been a lot of progress for people to, in science and medicine, to be able to institutionalize people. that is not where they will still retain their dignity, but they won't be a danger to themselves or to others. And I think we have to be very careful about that. I think we have to fiercely protect people's civil rights and freedoms. And yet at the same time, it's a balance of what is, we can't operate as a society like it is now. Chris (14:21.009) Yeah. John Nelson Pope (14:38.83) where people live on the streets, even with the opportunities for housing that is given because there are people that prefer to live there, we can't allow it necessarily. We need to be able to have some sort of a center. And I mean, go back to the center where there is a balance of civil rights. and also restricting some of the freedoms of those who are incapacitated mentally or psychologically. Chris (15:20.592) Definitely a lot there, John. Neil, what you thinking, Neil (15:27.435) I think a lot of this when you look at the different pieces as you guys both have pointed out there is a disconnect and a brokenness on so many different pieces you know because there was another shooting at a Catholic school right even before these three happened there was one that I think two kids died I think yeah there was that one too which was like the week before and it just kind of goes back to a lot of the stuff that there's John Nelson Pope (15:45.884) that's Minnesota, yeah. John Nelson Pope (15:53.806) Mm-hmm. Neil (15:54.709) a lot of people are hurting in so many ways right now and they're taking things out on these other sources or these other places. And I think that's the big issue where, and we've talked about this on the show before, I feel like there's a lot of awareness of mental health, but there's not a lot of help that comes into it. There's not a lot of actual application for mental health help, right? With a lot of these pieces, you know, it's, you know, the one guy in Charlotte here that, you know, I he has nine felonies. six months demeanors, I think one of the last part he called 911 from a hospital saying something so there was a mental health issue. Where was the help from the environment to get him on medication or get him once again as John goes, get him off the streets because he's obviously he's not in a well place to be out here, right? Whatever that reason was, how did he fall through the cracks? Anytime there's a smash shooting, what happened with those people? Like, why did they get to that point that they felt the need to kill people with guns in these environments? Why did not they get help? Why didn't they talk to someone? And then of course, truly Kirk with his stuff, mean, in his side with everything going on, there's a dehumanizing of everyone around you, whether it's you or someone else. And the problem is, John Nelson Pope (17:15.693) Mm-hmm. Neil (17:16.642) And I've been talking to my wife and my kids about this as as that's current. There's a narrative that gets thrown out about everyone we see in a public place. Good, bad, indifferent. There's a narrative that depending what you watch or who you do, there's good or bad, right? And I think part of the issue with a lot of these celebrities or these people that are outspoken with lot of it, it's the narrative that people feed on. It's that narrative, it's no longer about the person. It's about whatever it's spun about them. they're this type of person or they're that type of person, then you're no longer thinking about that person as a person, you're thinking about the characteristics, right? And there's that disconnect. And it's just such an interesting thing that society as a whole, it really is become so self-centered that it's no longer about caring about another person. Chris (17:52.946) Right. Neil (18:07.574) All of these are about people that don't care about someone else but themselves. They're out there doing these things. as we kind of jump, you some more on those things, we need to find a way to come together and stop looking at other people as... John Nelson Pope (18:19.072) So we're talking about social, I'm sorry. Neil (18:23.128) Cut. Chris (18:25.865) We can talk here, John. John Nelson Pope (18:26.862) I was thinking that the social media is so immediate and that people start to lose a sense of reality and they're not touching grass is kind of an overused phrase but I think it's good. Neil, you were talking earlier about taking walks and people need to get out of their basements and actually interact with people on a one-to-one level. In other words, it's an eye-vowel relationship. that you hold people in high regards and you treat them as something in a way they're human beings, but also that they're worthy of respect and to be listened to. And I think we've gotten away from that tremendously. Neil (19:23.598) Yeah, 100%. And I think the interesting part that Chris mentioned at one point is doing therapy sessions through Zoom or reading central or whatever is a lot different than in person. You're still looking at the person, you're still communicating, you can still see things. When you're not in that room with someone and you don't feel their emotions, you don't feel their vibe, you don't have that connectiveness to it, completely different. And once again, everything online, everything. Chris (19:45.148) Different. It's different. Neil (19:50.895) you see the person, but you don't know the person. You don't relate to the person. There's such a disconnect to that thing. And that's where people can build so much either, so much hatred towards someone or so much enamoration without really knowing what the person's really like. It's these things they put in their head. so you're on your 100 % trip. Chris (20:07.836) Neil, if I could just say it's experiencing the person, right? Neil (20:12.749) Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's the problem. When you don't experience the person being next to them doing those things, you can't connect. Once again, it's that dehumanization. Once again, you just can't relate. You don't understand. And I mean, kind of leaning towards the topic today about the value of vulnerability, try having a conversation with someone face to face versus over the phone, over Zoom, through text. Completely different, right? People don't want face to face anymore because it does open them up to be vulnerable, to feel the emotions, to deal with those things. It's huge. Chris (20:49.596) Let's jump off from there, Neil, because I'm aware of the time and I don't want to, I want to get into that content and that boy, just, mean, I couldn't have transitioned that better and you're just absolutely on point. This show vulnerability in the value of it was not designed with this current event in place, but you know, John, it probably as Neil brings that in, shines a huge light. on you were saying, you know, a relationship and I and they I and thou and and it you know in relationship, you know, can we say that maybe one of the most valuable tools we have in dealing with these things that we're talking about might very well be vulnerability, you know, I swear I did not plan this, John. But it occurs to me that John Nelson Pope (21:45.07) Mm-hmm. Chris (21:46.087) First of all, I do feel our field needs to be a bit of a leader in these things. We need to be out there and doing what we're doing right now from a mental health standpoint, because it's a part of all of this. Sociology, cultural influence, the fight or flight fear systems that are in place. All of these things are firing so hard. And it just, I just. John Nelson Pope (22:00.75) Mm-hmm. Chris (22:13.498) I just am passionate about obviously mental health and doing these things. It's, don't know, for today it's just kind of frustrating. We're just dealing with the trauma and the ideas of things going on. But I'm an action guy, man. I want action on some level with something for crying out loud. You know, I just do. John Nelson Pope (22:33.902) Action Jackson. Chris (22:37.04) Yeah. Shall we try to get going? Let's get into it. Let's get into it here with the value of vulnerability. Let's talk about why it matters. Vulnerability really is, as Neil, you were absolutely on point, just the vulnerability is a gateway to authentic connection. I jumped in and said, experiencing this reality. I love the Good Will Hunting movie. John Nelson Pope (22:39.576) Yeah, I want to be able to do something. Yeah. Neil (22:39.713) I Chris (23:07.15) I don't know if you guys have seen it, John. I've used it in therapy as an example. Yeah, that was a powerful moment, but it was also a powerful moment where Robin Williams and sitting with a troubled teenager, really brilliant mathematician guy, and he's sitting on the bench. This guy is wicked smart. Robin Williams is a therapist. He says, you know what? You can read poems about the Eiffel Tower. You can you can study the specs and know him to a T. John Nelson Pope (23:11.598) It's not your fault. It's not your fault. Yeah. Chris (23:35.419) You can watch a video online and YouTube and whatever, but you just cannot understand the majesty unless you're standing in the presence of the Eiffel Tower and experience face to face what you're looking at. You just can't replicate it. He told Matt Damon, he's like, you haven't been out of the borough here. You haven't experienced anything and you don't know because you haven't experienced. And I wonder how much of us are living in a space where we really don't know many people outside of our immediate circle. We really need to know each other. We really need to experience each other. And right, we've gotten away from that. Sorry, keep us going. Why does vulnerability matter, John? Any other ideas and things you're thinking about with this segment? John Nelson Pope (24:32.408) Well, think if you, you know, I earlier alluded to the I-Thou relationship is that if that also is predicated on one being open and transparent, one being making oneself vulnerable. And I think that you can't engage in be fully human and truly human. until you are able to step outside of your own worries and concerns and fears and present yourself as a gift, which you are, and also be able to take in another person's and see that other person in terms of their weakness or vulnerabilities. And I want to say weakness, not in the sense of having a character fall or anything of that sort. I'm talking about you're not perfect and you are genuine. Right. You're humble and humility. And I think, I think that's what's missing in a lot of our interactions today. We, we immediately are either, yeah, they're afraid. Chris (25:34.844) kind of humility. Chris (25:48.636) People are afraid, John. They're afraid. I'm terrified. Listen, this is not an easy thing to do. When you are feeling something, we talk about abandonment and engulfment. Engulfment folks tend to be internalized and withdraw and shut down and create space. Abandonment people tend to pursue and want to talk and get it out. Well, we're all doing the same thing, whether we realize it or not. We have this right here in our chest that sits on us and The strategy of shutting things down is like, whale just comes down and you see nothing. The other strategy is I'll put all this flak in the air, but nobody's really going to that vulnerable spot, John and Neil, and hanging out with us. You can hang out with us the whole time, Neil, or you just don't front part. just need to know. Neil (26:39.894) I'm planning to hang out on this one. This is a very interesting topic for me. So I'll hang on to this one and I want to be involved if you don't mind being the layman that I am. Chris (26:45.093) Okay. Chris (26:49.746) I love that. No, no, I love that. Because, you know, when you look at what this matters, this opens up pathways to connect. I have talked about friendship on this show before, and I have a weird view, some might think, about how you develop friendships. People are feeling lonely. We did an episode, Loneliness is an Epidemic. One of the things that I like to tell people is you can't just tell your little kiddo, hey, go over to the group there and talk. Otherwise, we'd do the same thing. John Nelson Pope (26:51.838) welcome. Welcome. Chris (27:18.096) Adults don't know how to make friends neither. And I tell you, if we know, I think we're probably fearful to do it because you know what it requires? Vulnerability. You cannot have a friendship if you don't allow yourself to be seen. And so here's a tip. If you want to create or deepen a friendship, what you do is you share of yourself. And I've gone through a lot of things in life in the last 10 years that have been real hard. I've never said this on show. I don't think he would mind me doing so. But you know, the co-host, Adam Kloninger, love you Adam brother. He's a real good friend of mine. That friendship was developed because I was randomly vulnerable to a stranger. Didn't know him. I didn't know Adam. And I kind of let some stuff out. was blowing off some steam to truth be told. But he became a friend from a vulnerable spot that I was in. a good friend. The power of vulnerability is when I try and drive home. I mean, it's a gateway. It creates empathy. It triggers trust. Because if I'm telling you something, what does that do to you? I you feel honored that I'm sharing this with you. And the very next reality is you're likely to share yours back. That's the way relating works. Neil (28:42.154) It's there. There is this the standoff mission, standoffish standoff ness of new person who makes that first step forward, right? Who who extends the hand first? Once that hand gets once that hand gets extended, whoever makes that first move, that's when the other person gets that sign to say, OK, now we have something real. Now there's we both have skin in the game and now you can make those connections, right? But that's the Chris (28:55.695) It's scary. Neil (29:11.042) To be the first person to put their hand out, to step on that ledge, to do those pieces, that's the scary part. And that's when we have the most vulnerability because we don't know what reaction is going to happen, but it is so powerful. And sometimes we fail. Sometimes we misread the cues and it fails. But then there's so many times that it's not as scary, it's not going to be as bad as we think. And it's super, super powerful. John Nelson Pope (29:22.489) yeah. Chris (29:29.298) It's a moment. It's a moment and... Neil (29:40.176) But it's that taking out and becoming, you you are a thou, you're not an it. Like John Nelson, it's funny, I just read a book where they talk about, need to go from an I-it relationship to an I-thou, because you referenced back. So when you said it, like, I know what John's talking about. Like, this is great. And when you see the other person as a thou versus an it, then you're more likely to be a thou. Exactly. But the book I read was, is Peter Casero, who mentioned Boomer, whatever, know, those things. So it's kind of cool. John Nelson Pope (29:49.144) Mm-hmm. John Nelson Pope (29:53.826) John Nelson Pope (29:58.732) Yeah. Martin Buber. John Nelson Pope (30:05.454) Yeah. He was... Neil (30:09.315) But that's great. I didn't know that's how you and Adam started your relationship, which is so cool. Right? And here's the funny thing, even in some relationships. Chris (30:14.556) It is. John Nelson Pope (30:16.494) I was thinking, but I'm sorry. Neil (30:20.335) Good. Neil (30:23.992) Go ahead, John. Chris (30:24.626) Go ahead, now. Chris (30:29.126) Did you say go ahead, John? John Nelson Pope (30:32.01) OK. I was thinking in terms of vulnerability is, and again, it was going from an I it to an I thou relationship. I'm also thinking in terms of Erickson's stage, the first stage is, let me see. What is it? Sorry about that. Trust versus mistrust, infancy. And you have to be able to break free and to go and make yourself like an infant in some ways to trust somebody. And so we don't want to go back to the place where we don't have all the control. We want... Chris (31:03.088) Right from the get-go in life, isn't it? John Nelson Pope (31:25.194) or where we don't have any control or where we are dependent upon somebody, but like a parent to do that. And so I think to me, psychologically or emotionally, to be able to, when you have a relationship and you start having that relationship that it starts to, and you take a risk and you risk yourself. You're very sold with someone else or other people or with a group. That is making yourself vulnerable because you don't want to get hurt. You don't want to get burned. You don't want to get rejected. And that's what one has to do. It takes a lot of courage to, in a sense, recapitulate, go back to where Chris (32:06.194) Mm-hmm. John Nelson Pope (32:15.758) your earliest stage and invite people into your world and that you trust them. Chris (32:25.02) You know, we do have research on this stuff. You know, I came across Brene Brown's work with this little show prep. I don't know her stuff a whole lot, but in looking a little bit, I thought it was cool that she does neuroscience research, which is the research of the way that our minds and brains work and neuroscience and things. And I mean, we've learned a lot. She shows how vulnerability fuels creativity, courage, and resilience. She's done some Ted talks on this. So I encourage you to look her up. I suspect it's really good stuff. Brene Brown, B-R-E. N.E. Brown and some of her highlights among other things. She talks about vulnerability being far from weakness to answer one of our questions from the beginning. It's the birthplace of love. I love that expression. You know, it creates belonging, joy, courage and creativity because when you're don't fail, Neil, you're right. Sometimes people be mean when you're being real with them, but that doesn't hurt you because you have your integrity and being real, you know, so it's anything but. but weakness, I mean, it takes courage to do these things that we're talking about. And then she talks about shame and empathy. Shame thrives in a secrecy and silence. Secrecy and silence will kill you. That thing that sits on your chest that you don't want anybody to know, it is suffocating you. It wrecks your mental health and it creates shame. And the empathy is the antidote when you care. You know, I'm... hear people talking about all the time, know, it's like such an in vogue cool thing, Neil, to say, oh yeah, I'm not tough, I don't have emotions, I don't care, I don't care anymore. I've heard people say this is like, do you know how unrealistic that crap really is, honestly, everybody listening. I mean, look, it's just not true, right? So, you know, she connects that empathy being the antidote to the shame where you're alone with what you're thinking. because it connects you and it makes people feel less alone. We did episode 256, The Bachelor. I'll quote that because I was impressed with that dude, Neil. You remember The Bachelor? It's The Bachelor from the show. Ben Higgins. You need to read his book. I've said it thousand times. You ought to give me some royalties. Alone in plain sight is exactly what we're talking about. He went depth into his experiences on the show, in his life and how that impacts. Neil (34:32.26) yeah, he was amazing. Chris (34:51.282) John, if you don't have vulnerability, you ain't got much. How's that for a statement? John Nelson Pope (35:01.13) I'm sorry, I didn't hear you all breaking up. I apologize that I. Chris (35:04.314) I said, John, I'm making the statement that if you don't have vulnerability, you don't have much. John Nelson Pope (35:12.696) That's right. I would agree with that very much. Yeah. That's I think it's very fundamental in your personhood because it's almost like the Velveteen Rabbit to you. You become the Velveteen Rabbit was had all the skin rubbed off or all the Velveteen rubbed off. And that's when the rabbit became real. And I'm thinking that Chris (35:12.722) Yeah, is he just? Yeah. Right. John Nelson Pope (35:42.764) We go through life and we share our wounds. We're wounded, we're hurt emotionally, spiritually, whatever, but it doesn't crush us. It doesn't beat us down. It makes us stronger. It makes us resilient. It makes us able to be real and strong. Yeah. Chris (36:01.436) Wrong. Chris (36:07.334) Really, it's the opposite of weakness. know, by gosh, it's the opposite of weakness. You know, this lady, Brene Brown talks lastly about wholeheartedly living, living with authenticity, self-compassion, resilience, gratitude, and faith, instead of being driven by fear of not being enough, fear of all sorts of other ways, I suspect. You know, one of the things that I think kills us in the things that we're talking about in the top end of the show, in the morbid current events section here is. Man, are a lot of people, Neil, you said a lot of people out there hurting and stuff, and that is true, but I suspect fear. There are a lot of people out there that are pure fear driven. Does that sound crazy? Neil (36:46.511) you ever, you you want to talk about the most dangerous dog that you run into, it's the ones that are afraid. You know, I've seen some dog trainer stuff and they're aggressive and they lash out. It's not because they're aggressive or territorial, it's because they're afraid. You know, you corner an animal. Like, and so when you think about it, fear is those survivor, you know, fight or flight. And a lot of people when it comes to fear, they want to fight right now. And that's... John Nelson Pope (36:48.643) Mm-hmm. Chris (36:55.858) What's the sale? Neil (37:11.119) you're 100 % and if you don't get vulnerable and you don't know how to deal with those things, you're just gonna sit there afraid and you're gonna be a risk to yourself and to those around you because living in constant state of fear is really not good for you. Chris (37:24.85) What you got, John? John Nelson Pope (37:26.114) I'm wondering is that when one fears, is, it involves the limbic system. It's your reptilian brain. You don't think. Absolutely. And so you are reactive and you are withdrawing. You want to go back into the cave. You want to be a caveman again and go back and, or you become very aggressive. And we have to get past that because I think as a society, as a culture, civilization, we can't progress further. And it seems like we have, in some ways, have relapsed or gone two steps backwards, back into the cave, back into behind the barbed wire, or into our little friend groups. And we've got to be able to say, I know you're different than I am, but I accept you as you are. And I'm willing to love you. And I'm willing for you. Neil (38:31.407) You ever try to get a teenager just to talk to someone on the phone? The amount of fear they have, or even a young, early 20s. There's this fear. Once again, they've never experienced, they don't experience experiencing people, right? Chris, come back to your earlier statement. It's such a different thing with the texting and the chats and all the things where they have relationships. Chris (38:39.352) yes. John Nelson Pope (38:40.515) huh. Yes. Yeah. John Nelson Pope (38:53.304) Mm-hmm. John Nelson Pope (38:57.432) Yeah. Chris (38:59.327) Just to jump in and join, just to jump in and join where you're driving me nuts, these teenagers will have a full-blown relationship with someone in Nevada. Like, if you're in South Carolina, what are we doing? John Nelson Pope (39:05.719) Mm-hmm. Neil (39:10.663) and you don't understand it, right? And I think that's one of the cool things when you talk about that is I've seen some videos of like the kids or the teenagers that they connected playing Call of Duty online and then finally after like two years they met and it's such a cool thing to then get that experience of actually seeing the person and being with them, right? And you miss that, you don't know those things until you see those pieces, but that's again. John Nelson Pope (39:24.984) Mm-hmm. Chris (39:25.042) Yeah! John Nelson Pope (39:27.747) Mm-hmm. Chris (39:30.096) Yeah. Neil (39:34.883) There's a fear, John, you're right. We all live in a sense of fear that when we try to interact with, we're afraid to interact with people and we don't have the connections to be like, Hey, you know, if I'm with this person, I'm not isolated. I'm not alone. I have someone, right? But they don't want to take, they're afraid to take that step to get the connection with the other person. It's such this weird dichotomy. Chris (39:57.017) Remember, the antidote here, and I love the way that she put that is, because I talk about it in therapy all the time, you know, I say the antidote to depression is, you know, you cannot be alone. It's the enemy number one. The antidote is connecting. The antidote to shame and this lack of vulnerability is empathy. And you only get empathy when you're making these connections. I mean, this is these are pivotal things in the way that we fundamentally relate. You know, a little quick angle, for instance, randomly with vulnerability is, you we were talking about OCD last week and OCPV and how that works, you know, in a therapeutic relationship. have altered states of HIPAA laws and different things that make it safer naturally or unnaturally rather, it kind of forces that. But, you know, there's still people that won't be vulnerable in sessions, John, they don't give us the information, therefore we don't know what they're dealing with. It's really, really hard to do that. John Nelson Pope (40:28.728) So. John Nelson Pope (40:54.915) Right. Yeah. Chris (40:55.638) talked about last time, if we don't have your information. So you got to talk to us about it, right? But it's scary. They don't even do it in therapy, let alone friendship. Right? John Nelson Pope (41:07.19) Yeah, it's almost like, yeah, yeah. was going back to Erickson's again, stages trust versus mistrust. They go and they put this barrier up or this wall up and they don't want, they are afraid that the therapist, in that case myself or you, Chris. that if they showed the real self that we wouldn't like them or we wouldn't accept them or be with them. And the thing is is that the only way that we can really engage with them and really be able to appreciate their personhood is if they are vulnerable and let themselves and let their guard down. Chris (41:56.851) You know, I just had a session the other day meeting a family and you know, it was a very, a lot of anger in this family. Woo, baby, it was a lot of anger. And dad was sitting there saying, I don't want to be here. I don't want to do this. And it kind of session went along and he just went boom and rocketed off into rageful anger in the session and everything. Well, I had to handle it. You know, we had to work with it. But you know what, he and his son were both very hot. At the end, they both apologized. They didn't want to expose what they didn't feel they had control with. They became vulnerable, didn't really want to, and then actually felt a need to apologize for the way they went about it. And I told them, both of them, said, look, you don't need to apologize, certainly to me. John Nelson Pope (42:29.787) huh. Really? Chris (42:53.638) causing trouble in the family probably when we do that of course, but you took a step to be open. It didn't look pretty. Some might say downright scary, but that vulnerability step can lead to knowing how to manage this, lead to connections, lead to fostering health in the primary relationships, especially in a family system. So there's lots of everyday examples of how we do this. Let's simplify this a little bit. How can we benefit in marriage? How can we benefit in parenting? How can we benefit from leaders, whether they're in a community or an agency, of kind of using everyday examples of vulnerability? Let's focus on that for a minute. Again, how in marriage, how in parenting, how in leadership roles can vulnerability help us? In the simple ways, not big, just simple. John Nelson Pope (43:38.945) Okay. John Nelson Pope (43:52.75) Well, I think one of the things that is by saying, instead of saying, everything's fine, everything's fine, it's okay, is to actually say, I am, own your feelings, own your thoughts or your emotions. I am anxious. I feel anxious at this time. I feel that I'm not being heard. And I don't, I'm not getting feedback. I don't feel like I'm getting feedback. I want to be able to connect. And how do we do this? How do I do this? I want to understand. Chris (44:34.054) You know, people struggle to do that hard, hard work in marriage, John Nelson Pope (44:39.864) Yeah. Chris (44:42.194) or in a friendship for that matter. John Nelson Pope (44:44.174) Yeah. Chris (44:46.812) You know, Neil, do think about leadership? How's... Go ahead, John, sorry. John Nelson Pope (44:47.746) You know, and there's always a risk. John Nelson Pope (44:53.56) Well, I think, for example, I try to be very careful about not showing where I am politically or whatever, but I have people that have lost friendships because, and I have clients that have lost friendships because they've said, they didn't agree with this particular. political view or whether they're Republicans or Democrats or whatever. Or they get on the one side of let's say transgenderism or being gay or take your choice, anything, it's hot button. Should you bear arms or whatever. And people have lost friendships over this and Chris (45:36.678) Pick your choice. Chris (45:49.325) They really do! John Nelson Pope (45:49.93) I think, and yeah, and it's so stupid. It really is to me. Yeah. Chris (45:54.874) It is. I appreciate that word. John Nelson Pope (46:00.46) Yeah, because I think we have to open our. Chris (46:00.475) I appreciate that word. Neil, how can this work in an everyday way with leadership? Neil. Neil (46:07.833) I think when it comes to leadership, I mean, I worked in some corporate areas and I think one of the biggest issues that you run into from, you know, building those connections from a leadership standpoint is when the leader actually will admit, you know, they made a mistake or they went the wrong direction or like that. I mean, it's a huge thing because when you have your people on ether that you're managing and every time something goes wrong or something happens, when that manager basically says, I didn't do anything or it's so and so so far. Chris (46:24.24) Yeah. Neil (46:37.007) they're not gonna trust you. They're not gonna open those things up. And I think there are certain managers at that top level, they feel like they have to be perfect. They feel like they can't make mistakes and when they do, they can't admit it. And that's the- John Nelson Pope (46:47.81) Mm-hmm. Chris (46:50.224) It's the gotcha moment. We avoid and we're fearful of the gotcha moment. Neil (46:53.283) Yeah, exactly. When really what happens is when that manager or that higher up or the CEO or the director, whatever level it is, when they admit, hey, I took us in the wrong direction for a little bit, or I made the wrong hire, we kicked off the pro, like there's a, it changes the amount of respect that the people that he, they work with, that changes that. Now, granted, there are probably certain levels of people that when the person makes a mistake and they admit it, they might see that as a weakness. But to me, that's, that's probably something they have to work on. But for the most part, 99 % of the employees underneath, whoever it is, as far as the leadership's concerned, when you see your mistake and you acknowledge it and you acknowledge it publicly to the people that it matters to, that's super. Chris (47:26.576) Yeah, sure. Chris (47:39.282) It's powerful. It's powerful. John Nelson Pope (47:42.542) Well, my respect goes up 150 % when somebody, leader says that and is able to say, I was wrong, I made a mistake. I'm not perfect and I'm trying. Chris (47:56.391) And I'll throw you another quick with this theme. It's a very similar thing with parenting. We're literally afraid in our own lives with our own relationships of being wrong with our children. You are in a place of leadership of the family, ma'am, sir. And the fact of the matter is, I've told my kids, hey, I screwed that one up, man. My bad on me. And if you're not able to do that, John Nelson Pope (48:12.162) You John Nelson Pope (48:15.916) Yes. Chris (48:23.608) you going to expect your children to do that? Or Neal, you're talking about your employees. They're not going to come to you with problem solving. They're not going to come to you with honesty. They're not going to, you're not consequently going to know anything that's going on in your kid's life or your employees day to day. These are, these are real examples of how this impacts you right now today. Go home and talk to your spouse. You know, you know that question, Hey, how you doing today? John, have you ever noticed how I answer that question? John Nelson Pope (48:35.8) Mm-hmm. Chris (48:53.126) You ever notice that? John Nelson Pope (48:53.43) No. Yes. Yeah. How do you do it? Chris (48:58.064) Different every time. Have you noticed that? John Nelson Pope (48:59.948) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I've noticed that. You don't say I'm fine. Yeah, yeah. Chris (49:03.44) Now that you think back on it, right? Yeah, I rarely respond to that question. I'm fine. I will say I'm good, and that's a short way of saying I am okay, but that is a question that you can practice. I'm gonna challenge you listening here today, that the next three times that you are asked a question, hey, how you doing, man? Hey, what's up, girl? Any kind of greeting. I want you to challenge yourself to answer that fully and truthfully with a sentence in that moment with what you are. John Nelson Pope (49:32.545) Yeah Chris (49:32.922) The next three times you get that question. John Nelson Pope (49:36.27) You go down the street and somebody asks you how you're doing and you start telling them what really happens and they'll start running away. Chris (49:48.035) They may, John, but you know what? I told a lady at the restaurant that I was hanging out with my friend. I had a tough day yesterday. And I told her a little bit. This is a sentence of what was going on. And you know what she said to me? You know what she said? Wait a minute. You know what she said? She said there was somebody here yesterday that told me the exact same freaking thing. No kidding. I was like. John Nelson Pope (49:59.2) I do that. I do that. I think you're. What she say? John Nelson Pope (50:10.862) Yeah. Chris (50:12.838) Wow, I mean, it did something in my head. Honestly, it was like, okay, there's somebody else, you know, it's like, you know, I'm not, I'm not alone, right? You won't know that if you don't expose where you are. It's important. and, John Nelson Pope (50:23.341) Yeah. John Nelson Pope (50:29.88) Mm-hmm. You know, I've noticed that you do that more, yeah. Chris (50:36.934) Yeah, now you're thinking back, aren't you? That's purposeful on my part. Yeah, it's very purposeful on my part. John Nelson Pope (50:40.204) Yeah, yeah. I think you do it more than I do. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes because of my physical condition, sometimes I just, you don't want to hear it. You don't want to hear it. I'm fine. I'm fine. But there's other times that I'm more open and I probably need to work on that a little bit more because how will people know if you don't tell them? so, yeah. Chris (51:05.447) Yeah. Chris (51:11.772) They just won't. They can't. You know, we like the phrase in marriage, hey, listen, honey, I can't read your mind. Well, true. You know, are you telling them what's yours if you want them to tell yours? You know, it's actually a book I could put in here, a book title. No, I didn't use it, but it popped in my head. It's in here somewhere. Through a therapist's eyes, re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. John Nelson Pope (51:21.378) Mm-hmm. John Nelson Pope (51:25.368) Mm-hmm. Chris (51:39.899) is a book that I wrote on marriage and in there one of my favorite chapters is it's easy to see your spouse as opposed to being seen by your spouse. Think about that. It's actually pretty easy to see the pain or the hurt or the excitement in somebody else, but it is much more of a challenge. test of a man, true test of a woman is, can you be seen by your spouse, right? You turn that around and it's like, yeah, I don't know, John, I don't really want you to know what I'm struggling today. John Nelson Pope (51:53.678) heard that, Chris (52:10.084) I really want you to know what I'm struggling with. You know, makes an immediate impact. makes immediate impacts. So we're cruising along here. Let's continue going in to the idea of what are some of these practical things? What do we want to do? I gave you just a little bit ago, and I meant that. You, the listener, I'm challenging you to respond to that question. How are you doing three times with a full sentence and real in the moment with whomever it is? I didn't sleep well or I'm excited about tonight. I'm really juiced about it being Friday. John Nelson Pope (52:22.412) Thank Chris (52:47.068) Fantasy football team is geared up to beat Neil Robinson in the game tonight. That's true, actually. Neil (52:52.043) It probably is because you didn't reschedule the draft, but we're not going to go into that. There's always going to be an asterisk next to this year's if you win it's going to be more than 50. John Nelson Pope (52:53.006) Mmm. Chris (53:02.122) come on, You scored second most points in the league this week. I don't want to hear that. But small, small is the thing here. Think small. Don't think you've got to go to the biggest skeleton in your closet. Don't think that you've got to empty out the cupboard board. Don't think to make a friend you've got to go deep and crazy with your views and stuff. mean, you just start small. Like I said, that challenge I think fits. Can we think small, John, and make improvements that are big? John Nelson Pope (53:31.042) Yes. Yeah. You know, those are icebreakers on one level. In a youth group, this is religious pastors, they do some icebreakers where people who are strangers or people that they've known is that they actually share something small. And that's where they start to build an engendered trust. Chris (53:35.463) Yeah. John Nelson Pope (54:00.824) point. So yeah, start small. Chris (54:01.803) A small reveal, that's all. Nothing huge. I'm really big on naming the feelings and understanding what yourself. I'll throw in the other book, Re-Understanding Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self. I have a chapter that says simply stop and reflect on emotions. People don't like to name what it is. And honestly, our skill sets for even naming what we feel sucks. Neil, you know what people are able to identify in their emotional set? Happy. Mad. Can you figure the other two? And glad. That's about it. They're on the primary colors, and that's about as deep as we like to go when really stopping and reflecting on what's going on, stopping and reflecting on your emotions and all is crucial. Neil (54:35.34) What? Neil (54:40.345) Sad. John Nelson Pope (54:54.254) Chris, need Victoria's little sheet of feelings and descriptors. And so you could, yeah. No, no. Chris (55:02.386) I don't want to get rid of that, Are you busting my chumps now? It is helpful, I guess, to have a sheet or to have some thought. I think honestly people look at those sheets, John, and they have no idea. I mean, we're starting to get an idea of like sending our little emojis with texts. You know, we'll do the little blushy face. We'll do the little crying laughing face a lot, you know. But I don't think people can go much beyond happy mad glad sad. John Nelson Pope (55:24.494) Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Chris (55:31.516) So if we could just expound on that with a couple more, I'd be happy. John Nelson Pope (55:32.45) But you see that. Well, you know, but I think if you're able, in other words, enlarge your vocabulary because then you be able to have, you can name that emotion or that feeling or that thought or what's going on and be able to more effectively communicate and touch someone. So in other words, you don't have the four primary colors of emotions. You have 30. or 40 or 60 even, to be able to describe where you are. Chris (56:10.674) Absolutely. You know, and another thing occurred to me, I didn't have it on my list, but Neil, have you ever heard somebody say, well, I don't know, man. just, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to say. I don't know how to say this. You hear that before? All the time. You know what? I got a perfect report. You listening to the show, if you've ever said that, ma'am, if you've ever said that, sir, what I would like you to ask yourself or to suggest to yourself. Neil (56:25.679) Not all the time. Chris (56:38.706) is just simply say what you're thinking. See, I don't think that phrase, I just don't know how to, I don't know what to say, is a cop out. I think it's, I don't really want you to know. That's what it means. And so if you simply say what you're thinking, whatever you're thinking, you're saying, particularly with somebody that you trust, you know, you're not talking about with a complete stranger, but you know, with somebody that you're building a relationship with and whatnot, say what you're thinking. Neil (57:08.685) Yeah, but that's gotten, I wouldn't say it's gotten me in trouble, but I drive my wife crazy because sometimes I'll just say something to like the cashier at the grocery store or whatever and she's like, why do you say stuff like that? But it usually gives a good reaction, but it's just like, there's, to me it's kind of exciting to throw something out there just to see how they react. Sometimes it lands and they have a great reaction, sometimes it's like, ooh, okay, let's not do that one again, right? Chris (57:08.882) Is that possible? Chris (57:20.913) I'm Chris (57:33.923) Right, absolutely. Neil (57:34.851) But I think it goes back to that fear, right? So many people are afraid, as you said, they don't want people to know what they're saying or they're afraid of the reaction. There's all this fear for them to say what they really think. But I think you're correct. Some of you just need to say it, right? Chris (57:52.466) John, did you have a thought? John Nelson Pope (57:54.754) No, I was just thinking that there are some people that don't have filters at all. so, right, right. So. Chris (58:00.807) The opposite could be a problem too, yes. Yeah, it is. But that's not the focus of today, you're right. I'm glad that you said that though. We're focusing on opening up, not having as much of the filter. But yeah, we need a filter too. John Nelson Pope (58:13.818) I think we're going to err more on not opening up and being honest and transparent. Chris (58:18.608) way. know many people that do the not revealing much of it all and I don't know many people that do the overshare thing. Now some people that know me personally probably like Chris look in the mirror. You know I'm not so sure about that. You know be careful about overgeneralizing because Neil where I thought you were kind of going was you you you get almost like a group think that comes into this. It's like well I don't want to be that first person that breaks the ice. John you said icebreakers right like I'm just gonna, we don't do that here. We don't talk about that. We see that in families, the elephant in the room. The rule is in substance abuse families, you don't talk about it, period. So we have to overcome that also, right? John Nelson Pope (58:47.032) Mm-hmm. Neil (59:05.367) No, I was looking at your. Good job. John Nelson Pope (59:06.189) I think I told you. Go ahead. No, no, just, we're talking about substance use disorders or alcohol use disorder. There was a mother, and I may have used this illustration before, whose daughter was a nurse and had the five children, and they were all under 14, and she lost her license. And her mother, she died of... esophageal varices. She basically literally drowned in her own blood and bled out and her mother said well she had cancer. She said that to me, the mother, they didn't want she did not want to deal with the elephant in the room. Unfortunately that the woman, God bless her, was such so addicted to alcohol. Chris (59:42.29) Eugh. John Nelson Pope (01:00:05.068) And so in its thralldom, yeah. And so that family was very constricted and restricted and the children acted out, obviously. So anyway, I just share that story with you. Chris (01:00:05.106) Chris (01:00:22.822) No, and there are countless examples of this type of thing. And I can tell you in a therapy, well, actually, maybe I should keep that thought. It's a good thought for the shrink wrap up that's coming up here in a minute. You know, one other thing I wanted to say though is, you know, in the marriage book that I wrote as well, one of the key concept that I like to think about is called the golden egg. And that's a space between the two people where you get to cultivate John Nelson Pope (01:00:50.264) Yeah. Chris (01:00:52.022) Being able to say anything. I don't let permanency words very often, right? I don't use them. They're not very helpful. But if you can cultivate a golden egg space between you and the other person where you can say anything that you need to say or want to say, I guarantee you, you're going to be in one hell of a healthy relationship. Period. John Nelson Pope (01:01:13.848) Yeah. Neil (01:01:14.651) The one thing, cause looking at your notes, Chris, and you know, during that golden egg, you always talk about active listening, right? Practice active listening. And the one thing I think before I even read this in your note, your thing is one of the key parts that I think when you want to like become vulnerable with someone is listen to what the other person's saying. They might just from their conversations, they can open up that door for you to be vulnerable back to them. But if you're not listening to them, paying attention to what they're saying to you. Chris (01:01:24.251) Yeah, true. Neil (01:01:44.336) It is an unknown whether you can be vulnerable with them. But if they talk and they kind of reference certain things about past relationships or past experiences, you might have an opening that you would miss otherwise. If you're not actually listening with them and actually engaging with that conversation, you just, you know, how many times do you have a conversation? It's just you're in your own little head talking to them like, uh-huh. Or how many times have you done this with your significant other? They're asking you questions. You're like, yeah, uh-huh, yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, I know. And then all of they catch you and like, You didn't listen to me, did you? Like, shoot, right? But active listening, not this week. But that is so important when it comes to being vulnerable with someone. You're gonna have a higher success rate when you're vulnerable if you actively listen to who you're talking to because they give you cues for you to say how to, the things that relate to them or that you know that you can be vulnerable with them. Because once again, Chris (01:02:15.634) That's never happened to you Neil, has it? Hahaha! John Nelson Pope (01:02:40.654) Are you thinking that everyone should take a counseling course where they learn how to do active listening and motivational interviews? Neil (01:02:49.931) I like listening and if you want to start that John for your retirement thing, yeah, get everyone to do it. Yeah, let's get the pay. No, it's hold it. My stepmother. Chris (01:02:50.45) you John Nelson Pope (01:02:56.382) is is I think I believe in it. Chris (01:02:58.884) I don't know why, I don't know why getting back to the beginning of our show and bringing us a little bit full circle, why we can't as a mental health profession, be a little bit of a leader and be valued in being able to get some of this stuff literally in grade schools, okay? I was super excited when I saw my little kiddo, he's 23 now, he ain't little, but he went to school and he had a health class. and it was talking just a little bit about feelings and emotions. I was shocked, John, shocked. Can we not have active listening as a lesson in a school? We have communications class, but I'm talking about from a psychological framework. Can we not have the concept of emotional intelligence be studied a little bit with our youth? mean, talk about all the times we're not thinking about anything in schools that we'll use in our lives. Well, dang, I could put some curricula together, Neil. John Nelson Pope (01:03:32.792) Mm-hmm. Neil (01:03:55.374) You have 20 people in a room that you can practice active listening, engagement, conversation. It's such a good thing. In school, it's all around the projects. But you really don't have that thing where you sit down one to... Have your kids sit down one to one and talk. You even give them cues. Hey, what is something that good happened this week? Or ask them a question about their favorite color. You can do these things in that elementary school thing. John Nelson Pope (01:03:56.567) Mm-hmm. Chris (01:04:02.938) Right, real time. Neil (01:04:25.177) That's a great way to do it, to introduce that. Like I said, you're stuck in a room with 20 to 30 other people. It wouldn't take a lot. mean, my kid went to karate and the one thing we loved about it is they made him shake hands, look him in the eye and be confident in your introduction. Chris (01:04:42.418) Right? Absolutely. These are simple things. here's the thing. Some of those things happen naturally. Those things happen normally and naturally because, you know, that's just what humans do is we connect, we experience, we're bred, we're geared that way until we run into computers, Neil, like we talked about in the beginning of the show, like erodes those things very early on in our lives. Look, we need to center in, take her down, wind out a little bit, get your closing thoughts together. You guys, uh, Neil (01:04:44.365) That could actually be something that should be done. Chris (01:05:12.114) You guys got anything lingering? Neil (01:05:16.143) I'm not saying anything, I'm holding all this in, because like you did, I'm gonna hold this with our sink shrink wrap up. Wait, do I get to be a part of this one today? Chris (01:05:24.146) You know what, it's interesting, we'll have a quick maybe unanimous vote. You wanna try a unanimous like, you know, we'll go around and see who gets it? I don't know, let's experiment with that because this is the time for the shrink-wrack vote. This time with Neil, he usually judges the responses of panel, kinda talks about, you know, wrapping up the show and what sticks with you. Neil, in that case, I'm gonna let you go first, brother, since you volunteered to be in. Go! Neil (01:05:51.12) I mean really what it boils down to in the value of vulnerability is that it's not a weakness. It's what makes us connected to other people. And I think in times like this where there is distress and there's trauma and there's all these big things, now's the time to open up your vulnerability and express yourself to those that you maybe have a close relationship with because now's the time to help you process through this, to open up to get a closer connection with those that you maybe don't have yet. Moments of trauma moments like this where you're either heavily affected by it or if you're not it's it's a great time to Be vulnerable because everyone can relate in some way or another and with the three situations that happened I know that there's many people who can relate to this and now's the time now is a great opportunity for you to expose yourself To someone that you know, maybe you're not that close with but you want to get close with because I guarantee they're experiencing something similar so Vulnerability is a great thing to build relationships because in today's society, we need to experience people. We need to have more relationships. John Nelson Pope (01:06:55.458) That's beautiful, beautiful. And I'm wanting to just maybe add to that a little bit is that give yourself the opportunity to seek these relationships out. Come out of your basement, get away from your laptop or your computer or your games and join the world. You can do it at church or synagogue or mosque, or you can do it at the... one of the activity centers you could do it but give yourself an openness and a spirit of openness and humility and be vulnerable I guarantee you you're not going to regret it. Chris (01:07:46.515) yeah, I don't know. You know, this is a very powerful topic that we're talking about today. And I heard a person, I wanted to give him, I'm just brain farting on this guy's name. I wanted to give him credit. I'm not going to get it in time. You know, I heard a gentleman talking very aptly about facing fear. And if we don't face, actually he said face evil. And I'm saying fear comes from evil and there is real evil out there. So I really want to highlight the idea that vulnerability though is something we fear. It is absolutely antidote. It is something that leads us out of this darkness. It leads us out of the shame. It leads us out of this anger. It leads us out of this vitriol. It leads us out of the shootings and the violence and the trauma. It is not weakness. It is absolutely part of what makes you human and for you to experience other people, for other people to experience you, for groups of people to experience each other and to experience other groups, we need to be real and have a connection that we're losing at times. So let's get on it, man. Let's get growth together as a human race around the world and stop this crap. Get vulnerable. Alright, I don't know. Neil, what do think? John Nelson Pope (01:09:16.15) Absolutely. Amen. Neil (01:09:19.695) I think we all hit on that. I think we all got it. think just watch the Shrink Raven get every point and just be vulnerable this week, guys. Come on. Chris (01:09:20.229) Here. John Nelson Pope (01:09:20.886) I'm gonna say... Chris (01:09:29.779) Love it. All right, John, get some rest, Neil, glad you came out behind the curtain. You look pretty out here, man. You look pretty with that mug out here on the video. Everybody stay well. We are going to take a week off next week, and then we'll be back at the end of the month with the month in review. Take care. Be well. We'll see you soon. John Nelson Pope (01:09:31.874) I agree. John Nelson Pope (01:09:38.156) Yeah, you look like a youngster. John Nelson Pope (01:09:51.437) See ya.