If you and your partner are trapped in a cycle of repeated arguments, lingering resentment, or broken trust, saying “I’m sorry” often isn’t enough. In Episode 376 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we break down what it actually takes to heal a damaged relationship when both of you are hurting. We explore why defensiveness gets in the way of genuine connection, how to shift from empty apologies to real behavioral change, and how to navigate deep attachment injuries using Emotionally Focused Therapy. Whether you’re struggling to rebuild trust after a betrayal, fighting to be heard, or trying to decide if your relationship can truly recover, this episode offers compassionate, practical guidance to help you find emotional safety and clarity.
Tune in to see Rebuilding Trust Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Why is it sometimes harder to repair a relationship than it was to acknowledge the hurt in the first place?
- Can a relationship genuinely recover if one person forgives but never fully trusts again?
- How do you know when a relationship is worth repairing—and when continued efforts are doing more harm?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
The One Thing Strong Couples Do When They Fight — The Washington Post
Resolving Attachment Injuries in Couples Using EFT — Makinen & Johnson (2006)
Manage Conflict: The Aftermath of a Fight — Gottman Institute
ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self
- Chapter 1.18: When we are the angriest, the more powerful “I statements” become.
- Chapter 1.24: Boundaries are important markers between others and us.
- Chapter 1.34: We can change our inner dialogue and cope with past hurts.
- Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse
- Chapter 3: A person who says “I’m sorry” is not a sorry person or a worthless person.
- Chapter 17: Learn a concept called “Intentional Trust.”
- Chapter 21: Learn how to fight well through discussions.
- Chapter 22: Couples need to develop a “race” in the apology/forgiveness cycle.
- Chapter 24: Your relationship patterns were created long before you met your partner.
- Chapter 40: Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #376 Transcription
Chris (00:04)
Takes a long time.
All right. Hello. Good evening. Good morning. And good afternoon. This is through a therapistize. You found us on December December. October the 15th. It’s it’s not December yet, Victoria. This is this
Victoria (00:31)
Good gosh Geez
Chris (00:38)
is two weeks in a row that I’ve got the intro all kind of jacked up. This week is because Neil’s got me starting the behind the scenes thing. He’s not gonna be with us next week, and so my brain is in ten different directions.
Last week I didn’t have my sheets and I wasn’t ready for the intro and I botched it all together, Victoria. And it’s just embarrassing. It’s like amateur hour over here. Miss Victoria Pendergrass is
Victoria (00:57)
Yeah. Yeah. What’s going on with you?
Chris (01:00)
hanging out with us this evening. How are you, ma’am?
Victoria (01:04)
I’m good. How are you?
Chris (01:06)
I’m fine as long as my microphone is not crackling. Sound good? Okay, I hate crackling microphones.
Victoria (01:10)
No, it’s not crackling anymore. No, yeah, you’re good so far. So far.
Chris (01:14)
Through a therapist to eyes, this is where you get insights from a panel of therapists, usually in during personal time in your car and
Victoria (01:23)
Just us two.
Chris (01:23)
your home. However, we do not have John Pope with us. He is not feeling well. He’s got some stuff going on this week and next week, and Casey is in her kid world. This is her every other week off deal, so
You get Victoria and I to talk about what are we talking about, Victoria? Help me out.
Victoria (01:44)
We are talking about how to repair a broken relationship, rebuilding trust after you’ve hurt each other. So we got three questions today, I can keep it going, that we want you to think
Chris (01:57)
There you go. Nail.
Victoria (01:58)
about. The first one is why is it sometimes harder to repair a relationship than it was to acknowledge the hurt in the first place?
- Can a relationship genuinely recover if one person forgives but never fully trusts again? 3. How do you know when a relationship is worth repairing and when continued efforts are doing more harm than good?
Chris (02:28)
There’s a lot going on here. And I don’t know, Victoria, I’m pretty sure you’re like me. We see this all the time. And you know, we’ve had a little bit of a theme this month where, you know, we’re dealing with estrangements and and people being in big gaps in their relationships and you know, this is a you know, a topic that’s near and dear to my heart, you know, repairing relationships, you know, being in a separating and divorcing
now life and and then having an estrangement I talked about with my dad. I mean it’s it’s a tough it’s a tough reality. You
know, I we do c Yeh yeah, well well, yeah, there’s there’s the book
Victoria (02:59)
You’ve also written a book.
Chris (03:03)
thing. What what does that apply to this though?
Victoria (03:06)
Well, you you wrote a marriage book.
Chris (03:08)
I did. Got a marriage book. we work in therapy to reestablish these relationships and and man, it’s such a powerful reality when you be get to see people reconnecting, reengaging, reinvigorating their relationship and learning the truth.
of the matter, which is that you absolutely fall in love and out of love in your marriage, and you also absolutely can re-establish appropriate and fun and and and healthy relationships with family members and even long-term friends when they get established. But boy, it is tricky.
Victoria (03:40)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (03:40)
Thus, yes, thank you, Victoria, for helping me out. How do we repair broken relationships, rebuilding trust after you’ve hurt each other? All right.
What else do we say? We subscribe, we do our job, please give us clicks. Find a friend.
Victoria (03:54)
Yeah, five
stars. John’s not here, so I’ll do it. Five stars.
Chris (03:56)
Yep.
He talks about the cream rising to the top or something, yeah.
Victoria (04:02)
Yeah, it like helps our algorithm, you know? I
Chris (04:05)
It’s it’s your part. Our part is creating
Victoria (04:09)
would challenge you, dear listener, to go up to a friend and ask them for their phone and go to their YouTube page and look us up and subscribe for them because they don’t know what they’re missing out on. Well, yeah, yeah.
Chris (04:26)
Well, and they could benefit. And we do have new YouTube subscribers.
Hello, by the way, to Julie Davis, Lee Jenkin, and the Brian Early. and we’re getting up to half the point of where we need to be. We’re closing in on five hundred subscribers, and we really want that to happen. We
Victoria (04:40)
Yay!
Chris (04:42)
need to grow, we need to continue growing, and you really need to help us. That’s that’s your part. Clip, subscribe, do all that kind of stuff. Give us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and all the places that we’re on. listen, we are real
licensed clinical therapist doing real clinical work every day, all day, I might add. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. I like to say this is
Victoria (05:03)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (05:04)
the human emotional experience, which we in due endeavor to figure out together because that’s what we’re about on the through a therapistize deal. So let’s launch into like why relationships break down. I mean we talked a little bit about estrangements.
Victoria (05:18)
Yeah.
Chris (05:19)
you know there’s so many reasons, so many things that happen in relationships.
consequently and incidentally interestingly, I was just had a conversation in therapy this morning, right? Have you seen this?
Victoria (05:31)
I love it when we have like
fresh, fresh things that, yeah.
Chris (05:36)
Yeah, yeah. Are
you finding that people are going into their office a lot more now, Victoria?
Victoria (05:43)
Like, since like COVID? Yeah, yeah,
Chris (05:45)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Victoria (05:48)
I’ve actually had a lot of people are like, yeah, my job is now requiring that we go into the office four or five days or what are five days or, you know.
Chris (05:54)
It’s a full developing trend, yeah.
Victoria (05:58)
Like, yeah, we’re slowly, I think how we took a slow, like we took a deep dive into the work from home when COVID hit, we are now taking a slow increase back into like the, the increase in number of days that you go back into the office. It might not be slow. I might, yeah.
Chris (06:15)
Yeah, I don’t think it’s slow anymore. I think we’ve hit a pace.
At least here in the States. I I wonder what people are around the world. Honestly, I I’m really curious about that because here in the States, man, people are flooding back into the office. It’s pretty wild. And there’s more work conflicts. Go figure, right? I just spent an hour
Victoria (06:33)
Mmm.
Chris (06:35)
talking about kind of a a bit of a work conflict and you know how they were kind of managing their professional relationships. So yeah.
Victoria (06:41)
Yep.
Chris (06:42)
Why relationships break down? We’re talking about marriages, we’re talking about, you know, close, close family relationships, extended family relationships, as well as even just friends and coworkings. You know, if you ever dealt
Victoria (06:54)
Right.
Chris (06:54)
with a difficult boss, you you you know how difficult that can be and how it can break down. So what do you say, Victoria? What are the some of the things you think about happen that really, you know, brings things to a head where we got ruptures and breaks and major gaps in relationships for people?
Victoria (07:10)
The first thing that comes to my mind really, I know it’s going to sound probably cliche, but communication or like, what was I thinking? Like simple misunderstandings or even not simple ones, just misunderstandings in general. And a lot of times I feel like that is connected to how we communicate or like our communication practices with
the individual that the relationship is with.
Chris (07:42)
You know, yeah. And I I y I I was just listening to you, I agree. I I I think you know, I was pushed back on the communication. So, you know, people always come into to couples counseling and say, We have poor communication, we want to be able to communicate better. And I always kinda like, you know, it’s not as much of a communication problem, in my opinion,
Victoria (08:03)
No?
Chris (08:04)
and in my view, it’s way more deeper emotional.
you know, more involved psychological systems type stuff in your brain, right?
Victoria (08:13)
Well, and we did a podcast episode on that where we talked about this. Like I don’t remember which one it was.
Chris (08:15)
Right. Shocking, I know, right.
Victoria (08:17)
Right. Yeah. But, yeah, we did an episode where we talked about like that same thing that it’s not just, you know, the cliche communication is key. well it is, but it there’s more.
Chris (08:33)
Perceptions, projections,
Victoria (08:38)
yeah.
Chris (08:39)
insecurities, points and states of fear.
Victoria (08:44)
Yeah.
Chris (08:45)
Actions and behavior when people act out triggers betrayals and it’s just
Victoria (08:50)
Yeah. Yeah. Conflict.
And then that conflict means like unresolved conflict or, you know, it wasn’t the resolution that you were hoping for conflict or, you know, we don’t see eye to eye on some things.
Chris (09:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, there’s there’s so many things that kind of come into a dynamic relationship, you know. I I I I really feel like misunderstandings are are a big part of what it is that we’re talking about here. I mean, people people really I mean, if you think about it, particularly like in a marriage, like you you you you love this person, you’re with them forever, and there’s the most pain that you feel in relationships occurs with this person. Like
How is all that true at the same time, right?
Victoria (09:39)
Yeah, it sometimes feels very much like an oxymoron, you know? And it’s like, okay,
Chris (09:44)
Yeah.
Victoria (09:45)
like, this really like a dual, like, is this, you know, can this really be what this relationship looks like? Or, you know, am I misreading something or whatever?
Chris (10:02)
It’s like almost a paradox. You know,
Victoria (10:04)
Yeah.
Chris (10:05)
the closer that you get in a relationship, the more risk that you have, and oftentimes the more vulnerabilities that you have, and therefore the more pain that you actually feel. It’s kind of crazy. oxymoron paradox. I mean, we can throw the cool words, right? It’s hard. Bottom line. It’s perilous in a lot
Victoria (10:19)
Yeah. Yeah. It’s not easy.
Chris (10:23)
of ways.
Victoria (10:24)
Yeah. I mean, I often tell clients when I talk to them about like, like, these are the things we work on. I often say, I know that the way that I say this makes it sound super easy, but I am also acknowledging here that it is not as easy as I say it. Like it’s not as easy to say to do it as it is to say it.
Chris (10:43)
Right.
The that came out wrong first, but you got there in the end.
Victoria (10:46)
Yep, sorry.
Chris (10:47)
No. You’re you’re absolutely right. I mean and I and I think another thing that that that really is maybe comes to my mind in what what’s happening? Why are people really struggling so much? Well, they’re not struggling in the simple way of just a moment or a decision. It’s like
Victoria (11:03)
right?
Chris (11:04)
a cumulation. It’s like death by a thousand cuts is the expression. It’s an accumulation, a
Patterns. Even when I was a young therapist, even younger than you were now, Victoria, when I first started out,
Victoria (11:15)
Okay.
Chris (11:16)
I started doing couples counseling. I was I was really very aware of like I care about what patterns are here. That’s mostly what I care about. And I actually still do. And that’s why I like patterns, yes. What relationship patterns are in place, because that’s going to determine,
Victoria (11:27)
You care about what pattern is you say pattern? Okay.
Chris (11:33)
I mean that that drives what’s going on in in in
Victoria (11:36)
Right.
Chris (11:37)
the pain that you feel.
Because if you have a good pattern, I mean obviously it’s good, but oftentimes we have destructive patterns and
Victoria (11:43)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (11:44)
as you said a little bit ago, you don’t really get the resolution to the r conflict or you know, the resentment that you have grows and it’s like here it is again, again, again, again, it’s again and again and again. And that’s what creates such desperation. I mean, that’s why people just give up. Sadly, I think people give up.
Victoria (12:04)
I would, I would agree. Especially in relationships, it’s, well, I guess I shouldn’t say especially in just romantic relationships, because I feel like I’ve seen it also in like friendships and like parent-kid relationships, family relationships.
Chris (12:22)
parent child is a big deal.
Victoria (12:24)
Yeah.
Chris (12:27)
Yeah, you work a lot with kids. Do you see, you know,
Victoria (12:30)
I do.
Chris (12:31)
how that works?
Victoria (12:32)
Yeah, actually, right now I have two siblings who are from, mom and dad are divorced and I believe dad just proposed to his girlfriend.
Chris (12:55)
Ooh boy.
Victoria (12:56)
So the so
Chris (12:56)
That’s a big deal.
Victoria (12:57)
yeah, now they’re expanding. And so yeah, I mean, I definitely see like
the impacts that that has on kids. But I also see with like my older kids, like their direct relationships, like they’ll talk to me about their relationships with their own parents, right? Like, you know, they don’t talk to their mom anymore. They don’t talk to their dad anymore. This is what strained this relationship or this was strained that relationship. So yeah, I definitely hear a lot about it with the kids, but the adults too.
Chris (13:29)
Yeah.
And yeah, absolutely. I I just it it just struck me when you were talking about that sensitive space. I mean, you know, that child, those children are seeing a parent get with another parent engagement and what a what a what an honor it is to be in those sensitive, soft, vulnerable moments with people’s lives and they’re sharing it like with us. You know what I mean? I just I don’t know. I just
I I I’m I I get so humbled doing what we do, but I was just listening to you thinking, man, those kids are talking to Victoria at a such a vulnerable time and such a strange
Victoria (14:08)
yeah.
Chris (14:10)
change.
Victoria (14:12)
Well, it oftentimes a change that like they don’t even understand, you know, and then that’s what I’m kind of there to help help them better understand it. But yeah, it is also very humbling to like it’s.
a confidence booster. don’t know when you have people that like, you know, and I don’t, and I’m sure people have told you this where they’re like, my gosh, this happened. And I was like, I couldn’t wait to tell Chris about it. Like I couldn’t wait to tell it, you know, or they’re like, I couldn’t wait to
Chris (14:40)
yeah, sure. yeah.
Victoria (14:42)
like, first thought was like, my God, I got it. Like I got to talk to Victoria about this, you know,
Chris (14:46)
So humbly.
Victoria (14:47)
it is cause like, yeah. I mean, I just,
I don’t know.
Chris (14:52)
Who are we, right? But anyway, we we’re he we are important people
that help people. So here’s the big takeaway, you know, with the idea of what happens. Why are we estranged? If you’re listening to a show, you may very well have an estrangement with a mother, with a father, with a brother, with a sister, with a friend, somebody. Business partnerships. That’s another big one, by the way. And all of these relationships work, by
Victoria (15:11)
Yeah, I didn’t even think about that one.
Chris (15:12)
the way. There isn’t really any difference in what we talk about. If we stumble into, you know, falling into talking about marriage, then that’s a mistake on our part, but that’s a
That’s the loudest, closest relationship, which is why we might do that. But relationships don’t collapse because of a disagreement or an event or a behavior. They they really do deteriorate over time. The things that are pain points grow and never really get, here’s the key, adequately repaired. And that’s what we’re talking about today. How do you adequately repair? So we have a segment where there’s what do we got? One, two, three, five things, right? See if you can follow us with this.
Acknowledgement, validation, accountability, behavior, actual change, time and trust. So let’s go down through these. This is sort of the process that we want to kind of maybe go through. This is a little bit of the meat and potatoes. What do you what do we mean by acknowledgement? Can you repair something if you don’t acknowledge it? What say you, Victoria?
Victoria (16:14)
Yeah, I mean, we’re basically like, I mean, recognizing what happens or what happened without immediately like defending or explaining it away. Like we’re just saying this happened. It’s kind of like stating the facts, right? We’re not bringing in feelings or emotions to it. We’re just stating, just stating what happened.
Chris (16:36)
It’s like Dragnet when I was
a kid. It’s the facts, ma’am. Nothing but the facts. Have you seen that show? I love
Victoria (16:40)
Right. What is it?
Chris (16:44)
I love quoting him, Dragnet. It was a detective
Victoria (16:46)
now.
Chris (16:47)
series when I was a kid. And and that’s what he would say when he’s doing an investigation. He’s like, I don’t want the emotions, I don’t want the discussions. Here’s what I really don’t want you to do, listener, is defend. Or even feel like you have to explain. These are two elements that get back and forth, back and forth, because then we get into emotion focused therapy where you come off being
Critical if you’re explaining something. You’re criticizing this person instead of
Victoria (17:09)
Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (17:11)
just really acknowledging what’s going on. What do you perceive? What are you experiencing? This is where you can really, really get curious. And so we just want to have a platform. Sometimes you ever been in a fight and you don’t even know what you’re fighting about? How are you supposed to repair that?
Victoria (17:29)
Yeah, at this point it’s just
whoever’s yelling the loudest. You’re not even hearing what each other is saying. Like, we’re not even acknowledging
Chris (17:32)
Right. And that’s where you get into I wanna be right.
Victoria (17:37)
what the actual issue is.
Chris (17:40)
Right. That’s where you get into I wanna be right, you wanna I wanna make you wrong, it’s a win, lose, you know, all those types of things. Just
Victoria (17:47)
Yep.
Chris (17:48)
acknowledge what the blank game is. Acknowledge what the play play play is, you know, acknowledge what the events and what happened, even if it’s just perception. This is just this is by memory. This isn’t by by by perfect recall. You cannot have perfect recall. All right, validation. So if you can simply just acknowledge the facts, nothing but the facts.
You
move into validation. We all know that. You know what it is. It’s hard
Victoria (18:14)
Right.
Chris (18:15)
to really do it though. How do we do validation, right?
Victoria (18:19)
Well,
that, yeah, validation is understanding the other person’s emotion or their emotional experience, even if your memories interpret it differently. You know, it’s kind of like the whole thing of like there’s three sides to every story, right? Your side, my side, the truth is somewhere in between those two sides. Like
Chris (18:43)
Right.
Victoria (18:43)
it’s a little bit of both, but it’s like,
It’s providing that understanding that you’re not, that you’re actually like listening to understand the person and where they’re coming from rather than listening to respond.
Chris (19:01)
Here’s the thing, you really can’t know if something’s real until another human being confirms that this thing is real. That’s just a basic science fact. That’s a psychology system reality. So when you don’t
Victoria (19:13)
Right.
Chris (19:15)
so so so it just it flows, right? I mean, think about it. Acknowledge something happened, acknowledge what your experience is, and then validate it. I can see how you feel that way. Wow, I had no idea that you experienced that that way. Holy cow, that must be horrible. I I I really, you know.
It’s so easy to fall into defending. I didn’t mean to make you feel that way. Well that’s a defense. It’s just you feel that way. That sucks.
Victoria (19:35)
Right. Well, that’s all I gonna say.
Yeah, it’s not… It’s not, I didn’t realize you took it that way. I meant it. It’s not keep talking. It’s not, it’s just stop. Like you say the thing and then you stop. Like you say, I didn’t realize that you…
Experienced it that way period end of sentence shut shut up Don’t say
Chris (19:59)
Right. Shut up, says Victoria.
Victoria (20:02)
anything else like because what we often do Yeah,
Chris (20:04)
No more is needed because you validate it.
Victoria (20:07)
well we we do the whole but you know we throw the butts in there
but I didn’t realize you did it, but that’s not how I meant it. Or like, I didn’t realize that you were feeling that way. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we make it about ourselves instead of about the person who we’re actually talking to.
Chris (20:26)
By the way, these two are the easy parts. Now we get to the harder parts. Okay? I would maintain to you that you listening that anytime that you’re in conflict with another human being, there’s culpability on both sides. I mean, it might be 90% their culpability. Culpability is a fun word of saying, you know, a fancy way of saying is fault, right? How did you contribute to this interaction?
Whether you intended to, realized you were, didn’t intend to, didn’t realize you were, whatever, any other variation, you’re a part of it. And because you’re a part of a conflict with another human being, you very likely have some accountability. So the big question is third step here, what can you take accountability for? Anything.
Victoria (21:19)
You can take,
yeah, taking responsibility for your contribution without making it conditional on another person’s behavior. So like, basically kind of what I just, like taking responsibility, but without trying to put it back on the other person, like taking your own, I did this.
For example, here’s an example, an in the day example. Earlier,
Chris (21:47)
Okay.
Victoria (21:47)
I got frustrated at my husband and I
Chris (21:51)
boy.
Victoria (21:51)
was doing a text, like I was in my car, so was doing the text to talk to text or whatever, and I called him a dumb ass.
And then I immediately responded and said, I’m really sorry. Dumbass was aggressive. My, like my bad. Like I immediately took responsibility. I immediately was like, I’m sorry. That was aggressive. I was like, I would, and then we like continued our conversation and like, but like you have to be able, it’s not, I didn’t try to put that back on him, you know, and be like, well, you made me call you a dumbass. Or it’s not like.
Chris (22:30)
Right. Wouldn’t that sound ridiculous?
But be but we do that kind of stuff, right? You literally it
Victoria (22:34)
yeah, for sure.
Chris (22:35)
will blame your partner or your business partner like that you did this and that’s why the justification is. No no no, that’s not what we’re talking about. But let’s move on to the powerful part of okay, now you get to the real meat and bones of behavior change. We could do a whole show on behavior, we have, we will again, you know, but really, really making things different and and and
And and and realizing that’s with you. Like the serenity prayer really applies here. You gotta let go of what you can’t control. You’ll be f serene. And and and you gotta have courage to change the things that you can. And the serenity prayer, the the the most important line is the third one where the wisdom to know the difference. Which one is this? Am I supposed to control
Victoria (23:20)
All
Chris (23:21)
this thing or am I supposed to let go of this thing? And that’s really hard differential. But bottom line, behavior change needs to happen.
If you don’t follow up with being different, then then you this is really, really, really where you get into the estrangements because it’s becomes chronic and it never really gets fully resolved.
Victoria (23:41)
Well, and it’s about doing that behavior differently, consistently. Like rather than repeatedly
Chris (23:50)
Yeah, that’s true too.
Victoria (23:51)
making the, it’s kind of like, like I was always taught growing up, like, hey, like an apology means that you’re gonna try not to do it again, right? Like, so like,
If you apologize and do it again and then apologize and do it again and apologize again, eventually that apology means jack crap to me because I just, you talked about patterns, we’re creating a pattern of you not following through. But I will refer also back to what I said, I think two weeks, I wasn’t on last week. So I think two weeks ago when I, or some point recently when I pointed out that like consistency also isn’t just about doing something 365 days in a row, you know?
Chris (24:34)
Okay.
Victoria (24:35)
It’s also like, hey, you know, I used this example earlier with a client today of like, you know, if I wake up tomorrow, Friday, and I don’t brush my teeth in the morning, right, after having brushed my teeth every morning for the last however many years of my life, then consistency is okay, that happened. But then Saturday, I’m going to wake up and brush my teeth. And then Sunday, I’m going to wake up and brush my teeth. And then Monday, and then Tuesday, and then Wednesday, and then
six months from now or whatever when I wake up and forget to brush my teeth again then I’m going to be consistent by getting back on track the next day and then the next day and then the next day. So even when you’re doing this behavior change we’re it’s not we’re not saying you have to be perfect in this like change we’re saying you just have to show that you’re like trying to do differently but with your actions
Chris (25:31)
Improvement.
Victoria (25:32)
right and we all
can have empathy and understand that we’re human, or at least we can try to. And so then like, yeah, I mean, but if you mess up once and then you mess up again, and then you mess up again, and then we are back into the same apologizing, but you keep doing it pattern, then yeah, then we’re not being consistent anymore.
Chris (25:57)
And the next step is just goes along with the consistency without perfection is time and trust. It it it this is this is where it’s kind of like leads right in with what you’re saying, Victoria. You know, it it’s it’s I I think it’s a beautiful thing to say, you know, gosh, I I just I just did it again, didn’t I? And the other person can be like, Yeah, you did. But that recognition,
Victoria (26:22)
Mm.
Chris (26:23)
even in real time, which is really the hard time is real time.
Man, it it’s it’s beautiful when that happens though. There’s no better way to validate somebody than to than to catch yourself and to take responsibility like you did with all right, what do you call Josh an asshole or something? But you say dumbass, like, you know.
Victoria (26:38)
I’m a dumbass. But like,
but then you’re basically this is a cycle because then once you do that, you’re going right back to the acknowledgement at the top. You’re saying, hey, I’m sorry, I did it again. You’re acknowledging it. And then we’re going back down the steps. Right?
Chris (26:55)
It’s actually an interesting
question to think about, Victoria, that that I had prepared with this to think and you you you just spoke about it, so I think you gave your answer. Can apology actually
Victoria (27:04)
There we go.
Chris (27:05)
make things worse when the behavior never changes, right? And you were just talking about
Victoria (27:09)
I mean, isn’t that mostly annoying
thing? Like we all get it.
Chris (27:12)
You know, I might push
back a little bit though and disagree in the sense that I’m I’m also thinking of, you know, Gottman and EFT and and Gottman’s
Victoria (27:20)
sure.
Chris (27:21)
material. Any repair attempt is is a good attempt. And so
Victoria (27:26)
Thanks.
Chris (27:26)
you know, I could definitely see where I I I’m sorry, I don’t mean to s put words in your mouth,
Victoria (27:30)
No you’re not.
Chris (27:31)
but I feel like you said basically i if the behavior never changes, that apology can actually make things worse. Do you agree it does? Yeah, I thought so.
Victoria (27:38)
Yeah, because it doesn’t mean anything.
Chris (27:40)
Yeah, I thought so.
I I think it can mean a little bit. I really think you know, it’s like it Go ahead.
Victoria (27:47)
I mean, but think of, okay,
you have two grown sons, right? Think about like, well, legally they’re grown. Legally they’re of age, they’re
Chris (27:53)
I do. Well, somewhat grown. They’re trying. Legally they’re grown. Okay.
Victoria (28:02)
grown. But like, I mean, think about, that’s what makes me think about, like think about like kids or whatever, right? When they’re…
Like I can see how sure you can say that an apology at least is some sort of recognition. Hey, like I realized that what I did was wrong. Even if I don’t necessarily mean the apology because I just kind of know that I’m probably going to do it again. Sure, is that kind of what we’re saying that you’re we’re looking at it as least some of an acknowledgement? But then
Chris (28:32)
I mean yeah.
Victoria (28:33)
my thing is is like. At least having worked with kids.
and having my own child is like kids can bullshit. So
Chris (28:46)
yeah.
Victoria (28:47)
like.
You know, I also think about like even the times me myself probably apologized, apologized in quotations to my brother, my little brother. Well, he’s not so little, but to my younger brother just because I like didn’t want to get in trouble or just because that was like the only way I was going to like not lose something or get something taken away. And so then it’s kind of like, does that play into?
Like am I just
Chris (29:14)
I think that
Victoria (29:15)
acknowledging because I don’t want to get in trouble?
Chris (29:17)
I think
the trouble with it you get in there is though it and particularly in adult relationships. I mean kids are a little bit different, but even then, I don’t know that I wanna try to be in somebody’s head. I I don’t I don’t know that I wanna get into the business of trying to determine if my wife means it or not. I don’t know that
Victoria (29:33)
Sure.
Chris (29:33)
I wanna look at my business partner and say, interpreting what you did three months ago and how you acting yesterday and now what you’re saying, I’m putting all this together and yeah, I got a bullshit meter and I’m not saying don’t use a bullshit meter, but
Victoria (29:47)
Sure.
Chris (29:47)
But you’ve
re gotta be careful about trying to r read between the lines too much. When you don’t have clarity, ask somebody instead. Like, do you are you meaning this apology? Does this what does this mean to you? ‘Cause I’ve heard it before, I’m not sure.
Victoria (30:00)
airfying
questions.
clarifying questions. Well, yeah,
Chris (30:04)
Gotta have
Victoria (30:05)
and I don’t necessarily have that like well at least me personally, I don’t necessarily have the extra brain energy to sit there and think about okay, is this person being genuine about their apology and I’m sure you talk a lot about this with relationship is like relationship relationships is when you’re with someone either romantically or it’s a platonic relationship like
there is a level of trust in that. And so it’s like you kind of have to trust that like your partner is being on it or your that person is being honest with you. So if they’re apologizing, right, part of you typically leans more towards like, OK, well, I’m going to trust their apology because this is my spouse or this is my best friend or this is my whatever. This is my business partner of 35 years.
Chris (30:55)
Or at least the intent.
Victoria (30:57)
Right. Yeah.
Chris (31:01)
Yeah, at least the intent. I didn’t mean to break your flow. I just you know, it’s it’s
Victoria (31:01)
I agree. No, you’re fine.
Chris (31:04)
like, you know, we get so far in the weeds when we try to interpret and read between the lines and tell somebody else what they are actually meaning. So I yeah, I mean if you see repeated behavior and and behavior, you know, apology couples that every time it’s it’s the the the boy crying wolf, you know, but a little bit happens. But but be careful here. That that’s just a a
Victoria (31:26)
Yeah.
Chris (31:26)
cautionary tale I’m I’m trying to deliver.
Let me let me get through this segment just real quick, Victoria, with the the repairing and attachment injury because it’s emotion-focused therapy. And I want to get into our discussion points afterwards, particularly forgiving and what that means and and what what the apology forgiveness cycle is. Because I’ve I’ve got a lot of thoughts there. But so this you know, repairing the the attachment injury, like there’s there th this is an important part of, you know, so A, understand why people
have estrangements and and and what happens. The anatomy of a relationship, remember acknowledgement, validation, accountability, behavioral
Victoria (32:04)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (32:05)
change is where the meat really gets on the bone and then allowing time and trust. In order to avoid these repeated experiences of unresolved stuff that just kicks layer after layer after layer, what we really, really need to be thinking about is how do we repair this?
How do we really deal with our level of attachment? You know, as a young therapist, I used to say as well, if we talk about how we talk about things more than talking about events, we’ll probably be in better shape. And that’s held all the way through to my career to today as well. So really the conflict, the events, that that’s don’t get me wrong, I’m not stepping on your toes. You’re hurt, you feel important, you you feel, you know, but but it’s really not that important, nearly important compared to
What is what is the what does this mean? What is this pattern? What is this attachment hurt that has happened? I don’t trust you now. I don’t feel loved. You’ll hear things like you weren’t there for me when I needed you. I stopped feeling important to you. You know, I can’t trust you. You betrayed me again. I feel like I have to defend myself. Anytime you hear these types of words, every time we talk.
Always you always tell me I’m full of shit or I’m in what you call Josh?
Victoria (33:32)
Dumbass.
Chris (33:34)
I’m picking on you. Every time we talk on the phone you call me a dumbass. You know, these are the but those statements, these are the these are the attachment injuries.
Victoria (33:43)
what’s the word for it?
absolutes is absolutes no is that what they’re
Chris (33:49)
Absolutes. Absolutes. I call them
permanency words, but these absolute words, every, all, forever, yeah. They’re they’re dead giveaways.
Victoria (33:53)
Yeah, because well then it gets nipped.
Well, then you get picky about well, it’s not always Chris, you know, it’s not every time it’s
Chris (34:03)
Yeah.
Victoria (34:03)
not Never it’s not always
Chris (34:06)
Now you’re defending.
Victoria (34:07)
and then well and then it becomes about the words that you’re using and not the action that was That was done in the first or the thing that was done or said in the first place
Chris (34:17)
The experience of our connection. That’s what we’re really after. Because if you
Victoria (34:22)
Yeah.
Chris (34:22)
don’t really get into this and and deal with the attachment and the emotional injury with that r that that’s why I said an apology of any kind is a repair, and I love any repair attempt,
Victoria (34:35)
Hmm.
Chris (34:36)
even if it’s five percent intended, right? Because we don’t want these chronic issues. That’s where we get ruptures, the chronicity.
Then you get into the EFT patterns, right? Protests
Victoria (34:49)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (34:50)
after hurt, the defensiveness, the criticism, withdrawal, shut down, more hurt, and now we’re more intense, and then we shut down more and then we get louder and we we become more critical and and you know what those fights are with your people and and I don’t it’s I th they’re horrible. I would really rather you understand what we’re talking about and get into defense d not defensiveness, to to get into, you know, healing.
You know, devalidating, you know, again. What what do we start out with? Well acknowledging this is real and validating, like just these chronic things are so hurtful and we see them in our office. So so you don’t need to f defend your position. You don’t need to, you know, be right, perfect. It the whole thing is just being genuine and vulnerable and really being able to, you know, acknowledge this is happening and validating and now, okay, okay, now what do we do?
Now you’re onto the behavior change and you’re also into something that’s very next. Let’s slow down a little bit, Victoria, and talk about ooh, apology forgiveness cycles. I could spend a whole show here.
Victoria (35:58)
yeah, for sure.
Chris (36:00)
So much importance that I feel like goes into the apology and forgiveness cycle. I could talk the whole time about it. I don’t want to do that, Victoria. What what do you see with apology and forgiveness, right?
Victoria (36:15)
I mean, I think it’s important, and I know I have said this on the podcast before, or at least I have to like most of, if not all of my clients, but like I like to remind people that an apology or a forgiveness, excuse me, is for the person doing it, right? Like I apologize.
because I can acknowledge and I genuinely, like, and I believe that I did something wrong.
to, we’ll say you, Chris, right? Like I apologize, and it’s not because you’re asking for my apology, like a genuine apology is because I feel like I did you wrong, so I’m apologizing so that I don’t have to, so that I’m not carrying that because I feel bad or whatever for what I did to you. And then forgiveness, like if you choose to forgive me, you’re doing it for yourself because you don’t wanna hold on to all that crap, right? It doesn’t matter if I’ve apologized
or not, you can choose to forgive me for whatever I did to you, regardless of if there was an apology. And so I usually like to point that out because people oftentimes bring up the forgive and forget thing. like, I’m like, gosh, if we can, if
Chris (37:29)
I hate that. Yeah. What does that even mean?
Victoria (37:33)
I, right. But like we can forgive and remember and act differently, set boundaries. We can forgive and set boundaries. Like we could forgive and like do better. You know, we can like.
Chris (37:45)
I just feel if I can interject. People really,
Victoria (37:47)
you
Chris (37:48)
really miss the idea of forgiving. I have had a child’s dictionary in my office. Again, I don’t know what it is today, is the theme, Victoria. When I was even as young as you were in this field, I I have had that thing sitting on my bookshelf for one reason. And the reason is simply because I will pull out the children’s definition of forgiveness and and ask people to read it. And they’re they’re they’re kind of processing as they read, and they’re just kinda like, wow, wait, what?
Because it’s a very simple definition. It’s letting go of anger against. You don’t you don’t you don’t do anyone else any benefit in the world by forgiving somebody. They do not
Victoria (38:27)
Yeah.
Chris (38:27)
benefit from that. The only person that really benefits is yourself because you don’t have to just like Victoria said, carry that anger anymore.
Victoria (38:36)
Well, the only time that it benefits other people is if you do forgive and forget. Because, like, then you’re, I mean, if you take it by the true terms of those words, right? If we forgive and set boundaries or forgive and, like, learn
from our things that have happened, right? From our experiences. Then yes, it is for your benefit. Cause then you’re, even if you’re forgiving them, you’re putting up the necessary procedures or whatever you want to call it to help decrease or make sure that thing or whatever doesn’t happen again.
Chris (39:16)
Yeah. Yeah. Well I I don’t I don’t want to slow down too much because,
Victoria (39:21)
Yeah.
Chris (39:22)
you know, want to get to the final segments and things. But listen, I you know, we start this show out with reflection questions for you to think a little bit about. I almost want to do that the same right now. Right? Think about the forgiveness apology cycles, the things that you’ve experienced in your life. Victoria and I will give brief answers on this, but I want you to
I
want you to spin with this for a moment in your own head. Can you forgive someone and still maintain no contact?
Victoria (39:54)
Yeah.
Chris (39:56)
Does the person who caused the harm have the right to be forgiven?
Victoria (40:03)
Wait, does the person that caused the harm have the right to.
Chris (40:05)
The person who harmed you, do
they have the right to be forgiven?
Victoria (40:09)
Yeah.
Chris (40:11)
What if somebody wants reconciliation but of refuses accountability? Move.
The heart.
Victoria (40:20)
What if someone wants reconciliation but refuses accountability? Well, tough luck, because that’s probably not gonna happen.
Chris (40:30)
Can
trust ever be fully restored after infidelity, dishonesty, or abandon?
Victoria (40:41)
Yes it can.
Chris (40:45)
When is repair unsafe or inappropriate,
Victoria (40:45)
lot of work.
Chris (40:47)
particularly with ongoing abuse or coercive control? And be careful here on the control. I just heard twenty people jump when we I said that instantly. Yes, I heard you through the the computer screens and lines and fiber optic cables. This makes people jump. When is repair unsafe or inappropriate? Particularly with ongoing abuse or coercive control. Control is a
Primary fear of half of our population that operates through engulfment, and it is based on your fear that you will see yourself being controlled. I can’t be more clear. So be very, very careful because I think that particular thing gets people in trouble. But I went slow. I mean, you answered a little bit, Victoria. I mean, yeah, let’s go back through. Can you forgive someone and still maintain no contact? I mean, yeah, you said yes. Absolutely.
Why is it that we think that we have to be absolutely passive when we forgive? You’re just letting go of your anger. That’s all you’re doing. You could still make behavior
Victoria (41:51)
Again,
Chris (41:51)
decisions.
Victoria (41:52)
forgive and set boundaries.
Chris (41:54)
Yeah, man.
I mean that to me is an easy one. Hope you made that point. But how about the person who’s harmed you? Do they have the right to be forgiven? Well, I don’t know. I it’s a weird question in me because forgiveness is about you. It isn’t about they deserve
Victoria (42:07)
Right!
Chris (42:08)
it, they don’t deserve it. You know, they have a right towards it. I should, I shouldn’t. It’s like it’s a simple question, ma’am. Do you want to hang out with anger in your heart? Sir, do you want unforgiveness to be your dominant emotion? I mean
Victoria (42:23)
Right.
Chris (42:23)
Do yourself
the favor. You’re not doing anybody else a favor. Right? What if someone wants reconciliation but refuses accountability? Yeah, that’s a weird one, isn’t it, right? This apology forgiveness cycle in that in that way. You say no, not happening, huh?
Victoria (42:40)
Well, because I mean, if you got, I don’t know. mean, if I’m understanding the correctly, the gosh, if I’m understanding the question correctly, what if someone wants reconciliation but refuses accountability? We literally talked about how like in order to like move forward with things, you have to kind of go through that, those cycles of like acknowledgement, validation, like behavior change.
Chris (43:03)
Right.
Victoria (43:04)
If we’re going by that, then the answer to that question is no. Okay.
Chris (43:07)
Yeah.
Victoria (43:09)
Civil note, that’s not happening.
Chris (43:12)
Reconciliation. I you know, I I I think in general I kind of agree with you. I if if i again, if you’re in conflict with somebody, I think it’s a pretty solid premise. I call it an emotional fact. In my books, hey, what books, Victoria? Through a therapistize reunderstanding your emotions and becoming your best self, also through a therapistize reunderstanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. I said them quickly.
Victoria (43:33)
You’re literally right here.
Chris (43:35)
they’re right there in the office. How about that? Thank you. Self
Victoria (43:37)
You
Chris (43:39)
promo.
That is so shameful. But I did I
Victoria (43:42)
Plug.
Chris (43:43)
I I do write in there, this is an emotional fact. If if if you’re in conflict with somebody, you have something to take accountability for, period.
Victoria (43:52)
Yeah, two-way street.
Chris (43:54)
It’s it’s it’s it’s really and you can only do something about your side of the street. No matter how chronic something is, you still can only do something about your side of the street. So I I I recognize, Victoria, I agree, but you know, reconciliation in any regard is a repair attempt and I just gosh,
if
Victoria (44:11)
Yeah.
Chris (44:11)
we could just get to the repair of any kind. I love Gottman’s statement with that and I don’t mind repeating it like a fanboy, but the next thing, can trust ever be fully restored?
After infidelity, dishonesty, and abandonment. Can I say one clear big loud freaking word? Yes.
Victoria (44:27)
Yes.
Chris (44:31)
Yes. There is so much fear that goes into that. So much doubt that goes into that.
Victoria (44:34)
I going to
you’ve ever listened to any of our podcast episodes,
Chris (44:39)
Right.
Victoria (44:39)
you would probably already know the answer to that question.
Chris (44:42)
You gotta feel that,
experience that. You’ve got to kinda know that. Now, again, second affair, coerciveness, abusiveness, patterns long standing.
Victoria (44:54)
Again,
is it gonna be easy? Hell no. Like, no. It’s not like, yeah, forgive
Chris (44:59)
No, it really isn’t. Yeah.
Victoria (45:02)
this person and da da da. No, it’s a lot of hard work, but we are just saying that yes, it is doable work.
Chris (45:10)
But when you hurt the most, you grow the most. And I’ve tell you, I w I have talked to, I mean, I’ve had the honor and the privilege of being in intimate, peaceful moments with people when they’ve gotten through this and they’re stronger for it. That’s actually possible too. And the last one, when is repair unsafe or inappropriate, particularly with ongoing abuse of coercion control? Just be careful about that one, like I said, man. You you’re gonna feel like you’re controlled because that’s a primary fear and that’s what you perceive.
And I’m not trying to step on anybody’s toes. I understand we try to control stuff we can’t control all the time. But
Victoria (45:45)
All
Chris (45:45)
it just be careful about I I just hear so much and you know, last week we I think it was last week we’re talking about all the therapy buzzwords and how that helps or hinders,
Victoria (45:53)
Mmm.
Chris (45:55)
you know, estrangements and people love using our words, Victoria. They love using our words.
Victoria (46:02)
They become popular, yeah.
Chris (46:04)
Yes.
So there you have it. You know, there’s a lot that’s here. You know, we’re trying to get into where we talk a little bit more about just our our views, but so that’s that’s almost the didactic. I mean, that’s the that’s the nuts and bolts of how do you really deal with this stuff. I mean, how do you really deal with a broken relationship and rebuild trust? I actually have a handout. I I I would love to have spent some time on it, but we don’t have time to to go through. Email
Victoria (46:33)
I know it’s when you’re talking about.
Chris (46:35)
me.
Contact at through a therapist eyes dot com. I will give you a form that goes through restoring trust and betrayal after a betrayal in a marriage. And it’s an awesome form. It’s not mine, it’s Jeff Shooks. So that’s a challenge to you. Contact at through a therapist eyes dot com. Ask me. I’ll shoot it to you. how about that, Victoria?
Victoria (46:58)
No, I love it. I think that’s a good idea.
Chris (47:01)
So let’s discuss for a moment, Victoria, what is harder in a relationship repair? Is it taking responsibility for the hurt that you’ve caused or allowing yourself to trust somebody who’s actually hurt you? Or trusting someone after someone else is hurting you. There are three here. Which is harder? I I don’t know, man. I mean taking responsibility?
Victoria (47:25)
I don’t know.
Chris (47:26)
Hmm? Trusting again?
Victoria (47:30)
I this you might not like this answer, but I think it’s situational. I think it depends.
Chris (47:37)
I do hate that answer.
Victoria (47:38)
Yeah, I know you do because I think the thing is is like right
Chris (47:41)
The cop out.
Victoria (47:43)
because I mean I can kind of like, okay.
Sure, are there certain things that, you know, happen in my life that are easier for me to take responsibility for than other things that I’ve done that I probably need to take responsibility for? Yeah. Like, is it hard to allow myself to trust someone after they’ve hurt me? Like, I feel like they kind of just are constantly, like, always fluctuating, like, in between depending on, like,
what I’ve personally experienced. So like, I guess a good example, like for the last one, trusting someone after someone else has hurt you. Like I get a lot of individuals in therapy who like have a history of people cheating on them or something, right? And so then you gotta be closer to your mic, dude.
Chris (48:35)
Sorry, I just said yeah.
Victoria (48:36)
Okay, but like because of that it’s like, okay They feel like they can they’re only picking out people who cheat like that’s just who they attract right because or whatever and so then it’s like, okay Well, how am I supposed to jump into her and get into another relationship and like, you know be able to trust this person if they tell me that they’re going this place and not that they’re going somewhere else or blah blah blah, so I think it like I know I know you really don’t like my answer, but I think it kind of depends on like
what you’re going through, because I would say like, I would say all of those at different times in my life have been harder than the other two. Like each of them have kind of taken place in first rank at some point in my life.
Chris (49:22)
You know, I’m I’m probably biased a little bit with this, Victoria. you know, in in function you’re probably right. Nothing’s really cut and dry. You’re like, you’re right, I don’t like the answer ’cause it’s conditional as
Victoria (49:31)
Okay.
Chris (49:32)
thing, but nothing’s really black and white, nothing’s really cut and dry. And and my bias right now is, you know, I’m I’m I’m sitting in life, you know, in the dating world personally, and after twenty eight years of marriage and you know, midlife dating
Which is unfortunately, at least in the States, I think around the world, divorce rates are are are way up. Or they’ve held static actually about fifty percent, forty to fifty
Victoria (50:00)
Yeah.
Chris (50:01)
percent. It it’s it’s when you have a history, you know, and everybody does, those last two, you know, allowing yourself to trust someone who’s hurt you, but then also then you carry it on when somebody else hurt you to trust somebody again.
I don’t know. Will I get married again? I fully intend to. I believe in the constitution of marriage. I don’t want to be single for the rest of my life. I’m not allowing the pain or the hurt or the process of divorcing to to stay in my heart. You know, forgiveness. I let go of anger. I’m pretty well good with that. Taking responsibility. Hell, I screw things up all the time. I just don’t think that was that hard. But this whole history thing, it’s like it’s not even a conscious thing, you know, it’s like
Coming from a divorced family as a child has been a fundamental thing, even in like my f you know, be you know, my first marriage was like those early years, man, I had a lot of things I had to kind of work out because my family in the process really jacked my myself up. And I and and so even starting off as a younger person, that was hard. So I I don’t know, Victoria. I I feel like generally speaking, when you’ve gone through pain and probably here’s the key.
When
you’ve gone through pain and you
Victoria (51:21)
Yeah.
Chris (51:22)
haven’t been able to let go or heal or repair, you’re screwed. You’re screwed.
Victoria (51:29)
Okay, so
you’re so you’re saying that the last one trusting someone after someone else’s hurt you has been like the The harder one in your experience
Chris (51:38)
Or or allowing
yourself to trust somebody who’s hurt you directly. E either one. I I just feel like, you know, that you there’s such a huge chance. Look, when somebody goes and has sex with somebody else and you’re married with them, that’s a betrayal. And you know what? They’re done. They’ve forgiven themselves. They’ve corrected their behavior forevermore and they never done this again. Never would do this again. It’s like solid.
Victoria (52:00)
Right.
Chris (52:01)
That doesn’t do anything for you who have been betrayed.
Victoria (52:05)
Right. Yeah. Thank you. Sometimes trying to explain that to someone in session is not that easy.
Chris (52:14)
it’s hard. It’s yeah, I know. I’ve been wanting to be I’m sure people have wanted to throat punch me because it seems so invalidating. It seems so, you know, like frustrating. But that I’m just, you know, that those pain points have got to be resolved on some level. And if they don’t, this is this is
Victoria (52:29)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (52:29)
a really, really hard, hard reality.
Victoria (52:33)
Yep.
Chris (52:34)
here here’s an interesting one. I think we’ve already kind of answered this one in this panel question. Victoria, can two people repair a relationship if they fundamentally
disagree about what happened. I I think you know, yeah.
Victoria (52:48)
Yeah, I mean again, it takes a lot of work. It’s not super easy, but can it be done? Yes.
Chris (52:57)
But I don’t know if it’s gonna be very successful if you don’t acknowledge what happened.
Victoria (53:02)
Right.
Chris (53:04)
And it and it and you can fundamentally disagree with the facts, but what happened is the other person’s experience. So that’s the key. And then validating what
Victoria (53:12)
All
Chris (53:12)
that person’s experience is, those things work together. So it’s not like, you know, again, you know, I’m right, you’re wrong, I remember what happened. I can’t tell you how many couple sessions. No,
I’m gonna correct the record. I di that’s not what I said. That’s not
Victoria (53:29)
Right.
Chris (53:29)
what happened. It’s like
Such a sticking point.
Victoria (53:33)
But also,
yeah, also there are other important things to kind of talk about and discuss other than that.
Chris (53:41)
What do you mean?
Victoria (53:42)
Like, I mean, like…
I think it’s like it’s not about coming down to that just makes it more about the details. I mean more about like
Chris (53:53)
It exactly.
Victoria (53:54)
on like on on relevant irrelevant details.
Chris (53:58)
Well, even relevant details. I you know, we get lost in the weed with both irrelevant and there are things that are relevant. I mean, you know, i i people do
Victoria (54:07)
Yeah.
Chris (54:08)
lie and you want the truth.
Victoria (54:11)
Right, but I mean, I think, I mean, I’ve had sessions before, especially like early on in my like couples work as a therapist
Chris (54:19)
Mm-hmm.
Victoria (54:20)
where like most of the session was literally just going back and forth, like telling each other side of each of like the story. No, this is how it was. Yeah. Right.
Chris (54:29)
Forgive me, I’m not your supervisor, I’m just your colleague and and founder
of Metrolina. I gotta tell ya, Victoria, the training session for the moment this is, that can’t go more than five to ten minutes. It just can’t.
Victoria (54:40)
yeah, no, like I mean, I’m not,
I don’t do that. I don’t do that anymore. Dude, I nip that, I nip that in the box when, yeah, we’ve already practiced.
Chris (54:44)
Yeah it used to. We’ve already corrected that on I thought we had that conversation.
Victoria (54:49)
But I’m just saying, that’s what I’m saying is like, but that’s what,
Because I back then I thought like, I need to be fair and like give each person time to explain and then time to respond. No, Victoria. No, you don’t get anywhere
Chris (55:03)
Yeah, it’s it’s it’s a myth.
Victoria (55:04)
with that. And then like basically it’s just a waste. Like it’s not totally wasted, but it’s like a not really a helpful session, right?
Chris (55:11)
It’s driving a nail into somebody’s pain point.
Victoria (55:14)
Yeah.
Chris (55:15)
You know, we want to get out of that. That’s why, you know, if you fundamentally disagree with what happened and the facts, you know, it’s it’s it’s just honor your partner’s experience. That’s that’s all you have to do. I think you’re crazy for remembering it that way. That’s fine. I don’t know, but you know what? That’s the that’s your that’s your experience. And I can’t I can’t change what you what you heard.
I can I can just be here
Victoria (55:42)
Right.
Chris (55:42)
now with you. I’d love to correct it because I don’t want you feeling that way about me. I didn’t mean to give you that impression. That’s all. Just sidestep the facts thing. You know, it’s like what how Right.
Victoria (55:51)
Again, acknowledgement.
Chris (55:54)
Acknowledgement. Acknowledgement. All right, let’s move to a section where we ask you, the listener, practical questions. This is us. We are not delivering the therapy of services of any kind, as we say in the front end, but we do have information about this in
want
you to really think through your heart. So Victoria, I think you have a question that you’d like to ask in a practical way to the listener.
Victoria (56:19)
Yes. Okay. When someone tells you that you’ve hurt them, which I’m sure most of us have experienced in our lives, do you try to understand their pain or do you immediately try and explain your intentions? So what I want you to do is like, I want you to think about
kind of what I said earlier in this podcast or in this episode of like, we want to try to listen to understand instead of listening to respond. And so I want you to sit there and actually think about what they’re saying to you. Are you understanding?
where they’re coming from and are we truly understanding like why they’re in pain? And this is a great time to utilize like clarifying questions if you’re not sure what they mean or if you need to ask a question about it, not making it about you, but still keeping it on them. Like, are we focused on their pain or are you trying to like immediately explain yourself? Because then we’re also, like we’ve said, like you’re not getting anywhere. So I want you to try to think about sitting and actually listening to understand.
Chris (57:24)
Nicely done. I have a question for you, listening. Think about this. I hear this oftentimes. People love to hold people accountable. I’ll even frame this in the way of a parent-child relationship. Isn’t it really your job to hold the child accountable? you know? Yeah, in a way. But I, you know, I think the accountability factor we like to get.
High on our horse in a moral high ground and hold people accountable. We even sometimes have accountability partners, but that’s there’s a contrast. So are you holding somebody accountable? Okay, I’m not saying that’s bad. Don’t hate mail me. But I’m saying is that is that holding somebody to account or is that continuing to punish them after they’ve made meaningful changes or attempts?
Punishing somebody isn’t really your job, particularly as a non parent. As a parent, you’re supposed to punish them, but this is a paradox with p parenting that we’ve I’ve talked about before. Like you’re trying to control somebody and it’s an impossible task. And then your job is to control somebody and you cannot control. The best you can do is teach. Do you need to hold some hold your children accountable or do you need to teach them? That’s another interesting question. But I’m blending things together.
Are you holding somebody accountable or are you actually punishing them when they’ve actually maybe even acknowledged something or tried attempt behavior changes? Be careful because that’s a that’s a nexus that you can never merely get out of very easily sometimes. can
Victoria (59:07)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (59:09)
I just say, Victoria, it has been lovely to talk to you. I I this our our individual back and forth, like sometimes we have, you
Victoria (59:15)
Yeah.
Chris (59:15)
know, too many voices and, you know, people it’s it’s just like a you everyone wants to say stuff. I’ve just
I really enjoyed playing off you.
Victoria (59:23)
Well, I’m oftentimes now forced to talk more than I usually would be because there’s not
Chris (59:27)
Yeah.
Victoria (59:28)
anyone else here to contribute. Other than me and you, so. Thanks.
Chris (59:31)
There’s that too. And I I I I I love your your voice though. I mean I I want to give you compliments. It’s it’s
it’s pretty cool to to hear you a little bit more. Yeah.
Victoria (59:41)
Love it.
Chris (59:42)
Yeah. So towards the end of the show, we do a shrink wrap up. It’s a friendly competition where we kind of review the show. Now that I’ve complimented Victoria, I want to crush her in the friendly in the friendly competition.
known as the shrink wrap up, Neil gets to sort of
Victoria (1:00:02)
you
Chris (1:00:02)
judge the what do we what do you judge this on? The the the the theme, the concept? What w have you we’ve done this a long enough, I think that’s a fair question.
Neil (1:00:12)
The best. It has to just be the best. The best.
Victoria (1:00:14)
just the best. I love it.
Chris (1:00:15)
wow. That’s
all he’s gonna give us?
Victoria (1:00:16)
I
Chris (1:00:19)
That’s not fair. All right, let’s go at it head to head.
Neil (1:00:21)
Well it’s it’s it’s it’s
who encou who encompasses the the the subject of the show the best and I think it’s the most impactful in what they say. That’s usually what I looked at look for.
Victoria (1:00:31)
I’ll go first.
Chris (1:00:31)
I
love that. I love that. All right, Victoria, you want to do paper, rock, scissors? Let’s do that.
Victoria (1:00:36)
I literally just said I’ll go first.
Chris (1:00:39)
I didn’t hear you. Wasn’t listening. My apologies. I will not I will I will change my behavior.
Victoria (1:00:41)
So here’s what you’re
going to do when your partner doesn’t listen to you, okay? You’re going to do everything we talked about with this button.
Chris (1:00:50)
I take responsibility for failing in that moment,
Victoria. I am so sorry. Yes, certainly you may go first.
Victoria (1:00:57)
Okay, so basically what I just want to say is that relationships are repairable and, or at least for the most part, and we’ve discussed some of the time, we’ve discussed some of the things that like, when they’re not, but most of them are, and I don’t want people to be discouraged by like the hard work that goes into it, cause I’m not gonna lie, it does take a lot of hard work, but it is doable. So like,
Remember the steps of like, you know, acknowledgement, validation. We want to do the behavior change, the time and try like we want to do all those things. And when we do those things, like change can happen. But as a reminder to be very realistic with you that it is a lot of work, but that’s okay, because it tends to pay off in the end.
Chris (1:01:49)
I love that.
Because there’s so much pain in the strange relationships and such
There’s not a guarantee that this is something that is for you, repairing a relationship. That sounds strange. But if you can, and I’ve definitely learned that it takes both people in that relationship to be able to engage full reconciliation and such. If you can, and it is safe emotionally and physically, we’re not talking about domestic violence. It needs to be stopped if that’s the case.
You are way better off if you can reconcile. Generally speaking, hands down, that’s the reality. And the other really big factor is is the fear and the doubts that make it seem that you can’t. People fall into a trap where you believe there are no options. Whether somebody will reconcile or not, whether it’s a business relationship, a parent child estrangement or a marriage or something else, I know it’s possible.
I never know if it’s gonna happen, but I really know that it’s possible. And playing off Victoria a little bit, the advantage of going second is is the payoffs, the benefits is amazing. I have people that have been absolutely cheated on in horrific fashion and gotten through that together because both people managed it and it was achievable and though can take time and isn’t an absolute.
So hopefully we’ve given you some ideas here because man, I want people to be living in healthy, happy relationships. It’s so fruitful, it’s what builds societies and stabilizes individuals. So reconcile it is possible. If you can and if both people are on target with that. Neil, it’s up to you.
Neil (1:03:46)
I mean with that, Chris, I I like yours. I like the idea of the reconcile reconciliation.
Victoria (1:03:50)
Yeah, I was gonna say, jeez.
Neil (1:03:52)
Yeah, I mean I I think people the I think people don’t understand when they go through these how much better things can be if you just actually go through reconciliation. Either you can just let it eat you up forever or you can just move on and move on with your life and your relationships with those. So Chris, you got that one hands down. So
Chris (1:04:09)
It’s it’s very meaningful to me. I mean, you know, the the the work professionally that we do and personally the the last couple of weeks have, you know, been real with it. you know, it’s okay. You can recover after estrangements are are are held, you know. It’s it’s really, really okay. but your your your health and wellness in relationships that when you recover I’m thinking of a family I was meeting with now. I mean, they were so estranged and Neil, like, yeah, they
They the the kid was in his own world and I was able to sit down with the family a referral from a therapist because the therapist was a bit stumped and they were really in a bad spot. And this family’s kicking ass now together, loving each other. And it’s so beautiful to see and know at least hope that that’s still the case, ’cause it was when we when we stopped. That’s the payoff, man. That’s the beauty of what w what we do and oftentimes what we’re able to witness. Such a such an honor to see things like that. Yeah.
So all right, that is a wrap on episode two seventy six. We won’t have Neil again next week, so two what did I say? Three seventy six. Two three one hundred seven it’s seventy six is whatever. It’s a lot of episodes. They all
Victoria (1:05:22)
three.
Chris (1:05:22)
blend together a little bit. we’ll see you next week. We’ll hopefully have Casey and Victoria and me. Neil, what are we gonna do? Who’s gonna judge the shrink wrap up? I guess I am the judge, right? Victoria?
Victoria (1:05:32)
Wait!
Neil (1:05:34)
I’ll I’ll I’ll phone it in later.
Victoria (1:05:35)
right.
Neil (1:05:36)
I’ll phone it in after the fact. I’ll go
Chris (1:05:37)
he’ll phone it in later.
Neil (1:05:38)
back and watch it and I’ll update
Victoria (1:05:39)
Yeah,
Neil (1:05:39)
the notes.
Victoria (1:05:40)
well, we’ll do we will do. We’ll have to wait and find the results out at the next at the next meeting.
Neil (1:05:46)
I I’ll let you guys know.
I’ll let you guys know.
Chris (1:05:50)
Put it on the month in review. You’ll have to listen to the month in review, Victoria, to find out. How about that? All
right, listen. Take care, stay well, and we will see you next week. Bye guys.