Ever feel lonely even when you’re sitting right next to someone? In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we’re diving into emotional neglect—the “invisible” weight in relationships that isn’t defined by what is said, but by what is missing. We explore why the absence of curiosity and empathy can be just as devastating as active abuse, often leaving people feeling like their inner world simply doesn’t matter. From childhood “ghost” emotions to marriages that feel more like logistical business deals than partnerships, we discuss how to spot the signs of being emotionally unseen and how to finally stop minimizing your own needs.
Tune in to see Emotional Neglect in Relationships Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Have I ever felt invisible in a relationship, even if I wasn’t being attacked?
- What is the difference between being emotionally harmed and being emotionally unseen?
- Did I grow up learning that my emotions were “too much” or “not important”?
Links referenced during the show:
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1001349
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jts.21920
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/relationshiptoothers
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #344 Transcription
Chris (00:02) Hello, this is Through Therapist Eyes. You have found us once again. It is February the 12th, 2026. Yay, yo, I'm gonna point out it's my birthday month, but you don't know what particular day, so. Thank you, John, thank you, John. Hey, listen, this is where we believe that mental health is important for all of us, and honestly, as the days roll by around the world, even more important. So this is where you get insights and information John-Nelson Pope (00:15) Congratulations. Kasie (00:16) Yeah, happy birthday. Chris (00:31) directly from a panel of therapists at home or in your car, knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. Look, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly about what actually helps. We have Ms. KC Morgan hanging out with us, ma'am. How are you? Kasie (00:51) Hello, John-Nelson Pope (00:52) Yeah Kasie (00:52) doing well. Good to be here. Chris (00:55) And the Pope, Mr. John Pope, comes at us from Florida. John-Nelson Pope (00:58) Pache Bon from Warm, Florida in Clement. ⁓ good. Yeah, that's good. That's good. Chris (01:03) It is warm. I can say it's been warm here too. 50, 60, yeah. It was a foot of snow and 10 degrees a week ago. I don't understand North Carolina weather, but here we go. Kasie (01:16) Listen, I'm peri- I'm peri-menopausal, I'm always hot. Chris (01:20) why don't you just be honest, Casey? I love that. That is what we love about you. Are you really always hot now? That's a new revelation. Kasie (01:24) Yeah. Yeah, always odd. Yeah. Chris (01:32) Well, I have andropause at age 52 and I run way hotter than I ever did before too. So it is, it is a real thing. Listen, so this is through a therapist eyes. We are going to be talking about a follow-up today from our last week show on emotional abuse. ⁓ This is about ⁓ emotional neglect, similar, but different. So episode three 44, emotional neglect in relationships, signs, effects, and how it impacts mental health. Kasie (01:37) Yeah. Chris (02:02) So this is a subscribe click. come out to you if you're finding us for the first time on YouTube on Thursdays at about 6 15 to 6 30. We fire up live. It's a great way to connect with us. We love your comments in embed them in the show. If you're if you're logged on and just talk to us, we'll we'll be looking and watching and love to check that out. So we ask you to do your job. We have a job. We disseminate information and prevent stereotypes and myths from blowing up across the world. Your job is to click, subscribe, tell somebody. Really and truly, we want to ask you to do that part. That's your job. So we do have, by the way, on that note, Neil, did you notice another new YouTube subscriber clapped clicks? Brandon Reesey, if I have that correctly. He goes by, I don't know what that means, Jits Ninja. Does anybody know what Jits Ninja Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I guess that's his handle. Yeah, that's a handle. John-Nelson Pope (02:52) I know what a ninja is. but oops. You know what? means we're old. Chris (03:02) ⁓ How does that mean that man? John-Nelson Pope (03:06) Well, no, it makes no sense to me. So it must be something that younger people do. And so I'm just saying that I'm trying not to be critical. And it's because we want him to be with us forever. Chris (03:14) ⁓ probably true. I'm sure he will be, but you're doing your best to run Brandon off. don't know. John-Nelson Pope (03:25) Yeah, but no, I'm not. I'm trying to I'm trying to say that we're relevant. And he's and I just hope that he will enjoy his time with us. And may it be long. Kasie (03:41) Yeah. Chris (03:41) Welcome, sir, welcome. Contact it through a therapist. That is a great way to contact us as well. That is our email. We'd love to interact with you because this is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together. And we've got a couple of tough weeks, man, emotional abuse. And now we're talking about neglect. ⁓ What do y'all think? and by the way, we don't have Victoria today. She has informed us she has a conflict in schedule. So we'll catch Victoria around the horn next week is the chance. So, yeah, what do you guys think? Is this the same show as last week? Kasie (04:16) Absolutely not. John-Nelson Pope (04:17) It's very different. Chris (04:19) Hmm. Casey was solid on that. How is this different than emotional abuse? Come on. It's the same thing. Some might think. Kasie (04:27) No, absolutely not. I think that there is a vast difference here and really it's more about, ⁓ you know, It's not really about provision, it's more about presence, right? So it's not about what someone is doing to you, right? In terms of like being abusive and things like that. It's more about what someone is not doing to you in a way, which is understanding, providing empathy, reflecting, or even speaking to you about emotions that may come up for you in the course of a relationship. John-Nelson Pope (05:10) I couldn't say that better. Chris (05:12) Yeah you can. Give it a try. How do you think it's different, John? Since you spoke up, I'll it. John-Nelson Pope (05:14) I think it's different because it's like, I think it's the absence of positive emotions and absence of your presence. And so I think there's a sense that it's withdrawal of affection and nurturing and nourishment that would be going, that would be happening there. And we are hardwired, wetwired wet-wired ⁓ to respond with oxytocin and serotonin and to have those feelings of warmness and affection and ⁓ acceptance. And we call it in our game, ⁓ unconditional positive regard or unconditional love ⁓ through a theological point of view. Kasie (06:06) Mm-hmm. Chris (06:07) Mm-hmm. It really is a hell of a thing when you have an experience in life with any level of chronicity where you just don't. You know, yeah, with domestic violence and sexual abuse and with emotional abuse, Casey, I kinda like what you said that there's really something that's being done to you and this is like almost a... ⁓ worse in some ways. mean, we said with emotional abuse, ⁓ you know, that, that is hard because you don't see bruises, you don't see physical injury, you don't see broken bones, you know, but with this, you, you, you eat, you don't even get to see someone being mean to you. Okay. ⁓ I'm going to say this, I guess, from the front end. ⁓ and then we got to do our reflective questions that I forgot to do in the intro there, but You know, a long time ago I was at a conference and I learned things at conferences and this room really stuck with me and it was a lady that was asking us, what is the most painful thing that you can imagine happening to you? And I like, okay, well, you got a lot of guesses. You got a lot of people kind of talking about like, you know, people dying, you your kid dying, you know, that's a hard reality. And, you know, it's over and over again, like, nope, nope, nope, you know, leaving your country and You being abducted, you know, there's some pretty horrible things that you could think about. She's like, no, you know, the worst thing for emotional, for things to experience with the causes, emotional pain is to be invisible. John-Nelson Pope (07:52) Hmm. Chris (07:54) Be invisible. You, you matter so little that people primary in your life act like behave like they don't even bother to see you. It's, it's really a wild thing. And Casey and John both know, but you, the listener might not know, you know, there's a lot of reasons for sudden infant death syndrome, right? But Kasie (07:55) Mm. Chris (08:23) We have studies that are around the world with people that are in orphanages or all of their physical cares are taken care of. They're fed, they're clothed, they're warm. ⁓ So all of their physical needs are met by the group home or the place that they're at. But they're not picked up, they're not touched. John-Nelson Pope (08:44) That's the Romanian ⁓ orphanage experience in Eastern Europe in the 80s and the 90s. it was the president of Romania said, we need to have more children. And so they encouraged large families. And what happened instead was the children were born, but they were placed in orphanages and they were not cuddled. They were not sung to or touched. Chris (08:50) What happened to these babies, John? John-Nelson Pope (09:12) they were basically clothed, they were swaddled, and they weren't even turned on a regular basis, so there was no human touch. And so what the children grew up to be, the two things happened. One was a failure to thrive. And so they, developmentally, the children did not progress as they needed to be. Or there was a sense that they became autistic, and not in the term of spectrum, but in the sense that they could not relate to anybody at all. And even when they were adopted, they... Go ahead. Or... And they died. Yeah. They died. Chris (09:44) or or or and the babies just died. died from not being touched. But you're right, there were other outcomes, know, autism and different things. John-Nelson Pope (09:58) Right. Well, they were all bad outcomes. Yeah. Chris (10:06) Yeah, yeah. I'm actually curious. I didn't know that that was some elements, John, that I didn't fully pick up on in that. Are there some that progressed and developed and made it through? Okay, I guess I'm wondering about that now. I haven't, honestly, I've just always known that and I use that as an example with neglect, but. John-Nelson Pope (10:26) Well, I guess, and maybe ⁓ Casey, you know about this, is that some children, despite everything that happens to them, they somehow thrive. But that's the exception rather than the rule, I think. And I think that the lesson from that is that children ⁓ actually need not just the Kasie (10:44) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (10:55) ⁓ cold, sterile environments and let's say they're there, but they need interaction, they need the human touch, they need a nurturing touch from both ⁓ females and males, I think. Kasie (11:12) Yeah, what I would say even with those who are able and capable to rise above and become very resilient in their lives, I mean, I've seen a lot of them, right? And what I have experienced in my office is that what emotional neglect really does is it teaches a person to abandon themselves. And through that abandonment, what I see a lot of is things like imposter syndrome, Very chameleon-like behaviors, very high anxiety with a lot of high achievement. And so they do a really good job of showing that they seem resilient, but they still lead a pretty singular, lonely existence. John-Nelson Pope (11:52) I think. Chris (12:03) And what's interesting about that is we'll get into that and talk about that from a substance abuse family, for instance. That's one of the ways that I look at this. But let's get you to think, you, the listener, as we're talking, we like to give you three questions to kind of ponder through the show. The thing we want to have you think of is have you ever felt invisible in a relationship, even if you weren't being attacked? It's a weird thing to think about, feeling. invisible you might actually be invisible like the romanian children but you might also perceive it and feel it for a time doesn't have to be chronic and constant secondly what is the difference between being emotionally harmed and being emotionally unseen and thirdly did you grow up learning that your emotions were quote too much or not important right you know you've heard the phrase children are to be seen and not heard, you know? How about when they're not even paid attention to and not heard, right? John-Nelson Pope (13:05) I'm going to posit that this is also... There was a book by Ralph Ellison, who was an African American, since Black History Month, writer, and he wrote in Harlem and in New York, and he said his experience of being in New York, not only was he... He came from Oklahoma, the hero, or the main character, the protagonist. And he felt he was invisible, but he was invisible as a man because he was African-American and he lived in a culture at the time where blacks were not ⁓ seen. They were better to, you can be seen but not heard, ⁓ but they were invisible and all practical. Chris (13:51) Hmm. You know, I'm glad you said that, John, because I don't think that we, you know, we're so in tune, at least I think all of us, to individual counseling, right? Where me and you in a room and we're talking and we're really working through these issues and whatnot. But I think sometimes we forget about the fact that, you know, like look, over a period of history or in a particular society or in spaces around the world, John-Nelson Pope (14:01) You Chris (14:30) ⁓ things like racism is, is absolutely powerful. mean, we discredit you so much that we're not even going to acknowledge you as a part of our group. Like, ouch, man. As a, as a white boy from white Wheeling, West Virginia, I can't really even identify what that must be like to be walking around the community, engaging with all the normal things and just not being able to. John-Nelson Pope (14:41) the Chris (14:59) walk into a restaurant or if I'm sitting there, waiter and waitress after waiter after waitress just walks right by me. Like, I don't know, you blew my mind there for a moment. John-Nelson Pope (15:09) Okay. ⁓ Yeah. Chris (15:15) It's sad. John-Nelson Pope (15:16) So it is sad, it is sad. And I think in terms of ⁓ what from my readings is that slavery, not just in the American slavery is perhaps in many ways, the ⁓ West, let's say in this, this both American, both continents of America and South America, it was where people were devalued and seen as things as objects. So and so not to be acknowledged or loved. It's got to be very demeaning dehumanizing. Kasie (15:55) Yeah. I think that brings up a really good point because I would say that emotional neglect really does reduce a person down to being more or less an object, right? Like you are the child, you are the wife, you are the husband, as opposed to on, you know, feeling inclusive with multiple roles and multifaceted within your own family structure or unit, you know, when it comes back to what we're kind of talking about today. John-Nelson Pope (16:22) Good. Kasie (16:26) I think you bring up a really good point. It really is kind of this absence of that attunement with somebody's just being a human being. Chris (16:41) and being accepted as that. Kasie (16:43) Yeah. Chris (16:45) You know, I don't want to skip ahead too much. ⁓ Casey, you were talking about some of the ways that that leads to, and you mentioned imposter syndrome and other things that people have kind of recognized. There's real outcomes to this. There's really real outcomes to this. So let's maybe think about this in way of, I think a substance abusing family is something that epitomizes this, right? John-Nelson Pope (16:55) Yes. Chris (17:15) So, you know as well in our work, I think all of us are adept at working with substance abuse just as much as men or health. ⁓ Casey, would you say that about yourself? I wonder about that for you. Kasie (17:27) No, for me it's been more of a co-occurring kind of disorder that's gone along with some pretty severe mental health issues, but that is not within my scope of practice and so I do not put on my information that I treat substance abuse. Chris (17:33) Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was maybe the case. We need to get you, we need to get you geeked up in one of these weird substance abuse trainings like all day. And because, wait, what? we're to go to town on that one. Because here's the thing, and particularly you who might be listening, you know, therapists, you know, younger or older. mean, there's a great big gap in our field. And I think that we do miss. Kasie (17:51) Absolutely not. Thank you so much. Chris (18:10) If we don't have an understanding, as you say, Casey, I know you have an understanding because we've talked about it and how it co-occurs and whatnot. But if you don't get some training and get some geared understanding of that, because there are a lot of clinicians that are out there that will like not just not deal with it. They won't want to acknowledge it and manage it. so, John, I know, you know, as well as I do, when we hear anything in a in a in a in initial appointment or in somebody's worldview or experience in history, if they have one parent that has an alcohol or drug related problem. don't know about you, but my head just goes in all sorts of different directions because it means very specific things that I can just count off and almost know in what that person's experience was like. And a lot of it revolves around neglect. Would you agree, John? Does that make sense to you? John-Nelson Pope (18:57) ⁓ 150%. I absolutely believe I've seen that. And one of the wonderful things, Casey, is that I see with people that are in recovery, active recovery, however they're doing that recovery is that they're the most ⁓ open and loving people ⁓ and enlightened people in many ways and humble at the same time. And ⁓ What do you think there, Chris? Yeah. Chris (19:31) absolutely. One of my favorite populations to think about or work with or talk to is the recovery community. John-Nelson Pope (19:36) When you see that the light go on and the spirit just it's like their spirit fills their body. ⁓ Chris (19:40) it's amazing. Right. It is amazing. Yeah, one of my favorite things in treatments circles is when you take a picture of an addict coming into a rehab on the day they're admitted and then they do the month or five weeks of treatment and the rehab and discharge to take another picture and you compare those two? No, no, they're totally different. John-Nelson Pope (20:00) Yeah. They're generally than look the same. Yeah, they resemble, but they look entirely different. They're countenance and that's looks different. Chris (20:14) It's unbelievable, but this is not a substance abuse show. It's about what happens in those families because we know that somebody's life gets kind of consumed Casey with the alcoholism or the drug addiction, right? And so what happens to the children in those in those families? John-Nelson Pope (20:27) somebody becomes the identified patient, right? Chris (20:31) Sure, but you know, the kids and the family and the progression of that system is that that kid very much is being oftentimes ⁓ neglected in some ways. John-Nelson Pope (20:42) Marginalized? Chris (20:45) They're not seen. They're not seen. They're not, they're, they're not taken to the basketball games or the cheer squad or, you know, they're, they're kind of left to their own demise to kind of entertain themselves, facilitate themselves to manage life. And, they have great resiliency. It's amazing what they can tolerate. They're street smart because they've had to deal with different things. They've a completely unpredictable nature, but it's, it's all, I mean, Casey, what I'm getting at is it's all like. John-Nelson Pope (20:46) Yeah, neglected. Chris (21:15) They're doing their own development, their own thing, because they're not really guided. John-Nelson Pope (21:19) So they can develop a rich interior life, such positive, resilient thing, but they also can be very lonely. Yeah. Chris (21:24) Right, but they're not guided. They're oftentimes just not guided. Does that make sense, Casey? I mean, you see that coming from different angles, right? Kasie (21:34) Yeah, I I definitely think that it makes sense, but what you will see a lot in kids coming out of these families or even the spouse of the person, if they are together, you know, and things like that is that there's a definite struggle and definitive struggle for that person to identify their emotions. right, no matter how resilient they are, they have a definite struggle in being able to identify emotions. They also have a high likelihood of over apologizing for even having needs. So they don't want to seem needy, so they apologize a lot if there's any kind of need in their life. And to them, it feels almost abnormal to have a need. They feel really lonely, even when they're in relationships, and they may seek out things like hypersexual relationships because there's limited attachment involved in that. And then they also have a very instinctual sense of pride around hyperindependence and not needing anybody to have any gains in their life. Chris (22:41) You know what's funny, Casey? I gotta tell you. Yeah, you're not exactly gonna advertise yourself as a substance abuse counselor. But you were just, it struck me because you were just talking about neglect and some very real things that you experienced with people that have gone through this, right? But you were not going through those things and thinking about a kid in a substance abuse family, were you? Or were you? Kasie (23:09) Not in particularly, but I will say that the kids that I am speaking of, a high ratio of them have been products of a family that's had substance abuse or they're adults now and their childhood self was in a family that was a substance abuse family for sure. John-Nelson Pope (23:27) Alright, Chris (23:27) Right, John-Nelson Pope (23:27) let's do it. Chris (23:28) that's what I'm saying, John. Let me draw this distinction real quick because what's amazing to me about that is I didn't think you were, and you just confirmed that you were not really thinking about children in those families. But as you're sitting there tacking off those one after the other, not really able to identify their emotions, often prideful, like that you were talking about the kids that I start making assumptions when I find out you come from a substance abuse family. Kasie (23:40) Mm-hmm. Chris (23:56) So it's just uncanny the way you were listing these things one after the other. I'm like, yeah, those are the kids I was just talking about. Sorry, John, I cut you off. Kasie (24:03) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (24:05) No, no, you said exactly what I was wanting to say. I think in terms of adults and growing up as adults, you may not have the vocabulary that Casey has. Casey, other adults may not have the vocabulary that you have, but you can express quite well that sense of loneliness, that isolation that continues. And so when you talked about the imposter, syndrome or feeling like they're... They put on an act, but they never feel like they quite fit in. And they never feel like they're heard and understood. Kasie (24:42) Mm-hmm. And what I find to be insanely interesting is oftentimes ⁓ kids or even the adults that I work with will make regards to this. That growing up, they were always referred to as being really mature. And what I would boldly say is that this is not maturity, it is simply survival. John-Nelson Pope (24:59) Mm-hmm. Kasie (25:07) Right? So they have pruned away immature behaviors, not because they are, you know, just filled with maturational wisdom, but because the more immature that they were and had the needs that they had of an immature child were pruned, meaning they weren't met, kind of like the infants we were talking about in the remaining orphanages, orphanages. Chris (25:30) Therefore I don't have needs. Kasie (25:32) and therefore I don't have needs. And so if you don't water or feed something that dies, right? So those things start to die away. So they look really mature, but really they're just in survival mode. John-Nelson Pope (25:45) So they're losing their sense of awe and wonder, a sense of just that ex...the innocence of childhood and they grow up into being people that are very controlled. Yeah, so... Kasie (26:03) Yeah. Chris (26:05) Yeah, it's wild again. You're talking about ⁓ substance abuse families without knowing it or realizing it. And it's funny when I'm working with that population, I will talk about survivor mode. In fact, we've done shows on survivor mode. that's a deep pond to jump in. I want to give an example here that I've often used in therapy that I think draws out or demonstrates something like of what doesn't happen for people. John-Nelson Pope (26:15) Yeah. Kasie (26:22) Yeah. Chris (26:33) Because there was an experience, and I'm not using an example like this to glorify anything we've done. I've made plenty of mistakes. I always point that out when I'm working in therapy as well, as much as things that we've done well. But this was a moment that I feel like it did pretty well with my son. His name's Aaron, and Aaron was, I don't know, five, six years old, right? And he was playing real hard all day long outside. My kids just loved that. I mean, they would just go outside and we'd have to grab them by the ear to pull them back in sometimes. This was a warm day, summer day, and he was out playing and he's just, you know, probably didn't take any time to stop drinking or eating anything. Hopefully we were. No, we're certainly was not. Maybe the opposite brother, because I was just getting ready to say, hopefully we made sure he ate lunch, but I can't say if he did or not because he came in and he was grouchy. ⁓ he was just grouchy. And. ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (27:11) You weren't a helicopter parent, were you? Chris (27:30) I'm like, Aaron, hey man, what's going on, man? Come on, it's time to eat. He's like, I don't want to eat. don't want And I was like, no, man, come on, it's okay, man. We're going to sit down. We're going to eat at the table. He's like, ah, he's all grouchy. So we'll do, we're having, we're having your favorite meal. You know, it's the spaghetti. We got, you know, your mom made spaghetti and he's like, ah, you know, and he kind of looked at me and whatever spaghetti he always loved. And he was just not having anything. I'm like, come on, sit down here, you know, and tell me. was like, look, Aaron, hey, listen, buddy, what, what, what's, what's happening? You know, your body, do you notice anything? I don't notice anything. I'm stupid. You're stupid, you know? I said, well, look at your tummy. How does your tummy feel? know, it's like, ah, it's growling. You know, like, yeah, OK. OK, you might be. Do you think you might be hungry? You haven't eaten anything? Yeah, I don't know. He played a spaghetti comes and gets put in front of him. I say, OK, but why you just eat a little bit of that? And kind of eats a little bit. I said, well, how you know how you feel about it? I'm fine. Fine. You know, he drinks a little water or whatever, you know, and teach him a little bit. You already know where we're going, right? You know, I taught him. was like, hey, you know, when your belly gets feeling like that and you know, you might feel a little irritable, right? He's like, yeah. But now you eat a little bit and you feel a little bit better, don't you? Yeah. And your emotions, they feel a little calmer. You seem like you're calmer, right? I literally was very aware of teaching him what hangry was about. Right. John-Nelson Pope (28:59) Connecting. Connecting. Kasie (29:00) Yeah, I was gonna say, and Aaron got a lot in common. Chris (29:03) Well, we all do, don't But think about this, Casey. You, me, John and Aaron all have that in common. But if he's not taught, if he's not shown, if he's not seen in that moment, if instead he's neglected, then he is left to figure that out on his own. And will he figure it out? Yes. He will know as an adult. If I don't eat, I will feel like crap. and be irritable. He will learn that. It's not that hard to John-Nelson Pope (29:35) Yeah. Right. Chris (29:38) But how different is it when you're taught, when you're shown, when you're sat with through an experience and then come out on the other end with a mutually understood phenomena. I'm not alone. I'm heard. I can be accepted. I can be validated. I am empowered to take care of myself and I can even maybe ask for help if I need it. Kasie (30:04) Mm-hmm. Chris (30:08) and probably several other things. Kasie (30:11) Yeah, and I do want to point out to the listener that... Had you not done that, you would not have been emotionally neglecting your son and scarring him for life. But that really is a good example of how to teach someone about the cues of themselves and how when parents aren't attuned, when people aren't attuned with emotional needs of others, we may dismiss it as poor behavior. We may see it as ⁓ attention seeking or things like that or even just they're being bad or we're qualifying it as something other than what it is and the important thing there for me is you ask the questions right like go ahead John-Nelson Pope (30:55) Okay, no, when you're in the session, what's one of the first things you do when you start a session off? I'm going to ask Chris and Casey that. What do you say? Chris (31:08) Oftentimes for me it's a question or a variation of the question, you how are you? John-Nelson Pope (31:14) How do you feel? What's going on? Yeah. Chris (31:14) How do you feel? Yeah, Kasie (31:16) I say, Chris (31:16) what's going on? Kasie (31:17) all right, catch me up. Where are we at? John-Nelson Pope (31:20) That's another term I used. Yeah. Let's do a recap. What's going on? Yeah. Kasie (31:25) Yeah. Chris (31:27) And why is that, John? We universally do things like that. Why? It's interesting that you just popped us that way. That was unplanned. ⁓ John-Nelson Pope (31:34) because we engage by showing that we care, we care by engaging with them. And we say the most important person in the room is the person sitting across from us and that we're, this is their time to be heard and to be seen and to experience their deepest, ⁓ their deepest feelings and that they can be safe. Someone said to me, which I considered a very high compliment. They said, I feel very safe when I'm with you. I can take a risk. so it doesn't scare me so much to be challenged by you. And I stay away from the word confront. But anyway, the point is that you Chris (32:10) yeah. John-Nelson Pope (32:31) you let the person know that you're walking with them. Chris (32:36) No, it's a powerful reality. a matter of fact, John, oftentimes I really like to help younger therapists, especially understand the power of what it is that we do. I don't think that we even realize as much as we're experienced, maybe we know a little bit better, but I think even then we don't realize, especially young clinicians in this field, you know, do you realize this is the first and only and likely only experience they'll ever have? of sitting down with a person for an entire length of time up to an hour or so where the focus is absolutely drawn specifically to them, that they have your full and undivided attention instead of the normal way that we interact, which is I'm just waiting for John to stop talking when I can say my message. And then Casey's waiting for both of us to stop so that she could put her point in. I'm not focused on Casey this entire hour exclusively of anything else. I, you know, John-Nelson Pope (33:25) Hehehehehe Kasie (33:34) But you are. ⁓ Chris (33:35) That's powerful. Yeah, I mean, come on. ⁓ What makes you think that narcissism, Casey? I mean. Kasie (33:44) Narcissus. You know what I think is so hard about this topic in general, and I hope I'm not jumping ahead or skipping ahead, but I want to boldly say this because I think that this is really important. for people to hear because, you know, and I'm guilty of saying these things too. You know, we often as adults might say things like, I had a good childhood, you know, I had a good childhood and you know, a lot of people around me had a lot worse than I did and my parents did the best that they could and things like that. Just because you were loved, you can be loved and still have been emotionally neglected. Chris (34:24) Wow, say that again. Kasie (34:26) You can be loved and still have been emotionally neglected. And that goes in every relationship, parent, child, husband, wife, so on and so forth. That really is a true concept. They don't have to be mutually exclusive events in order for both of them to be true. Chris (34:45) And let me jump in and add, you one of the things we want to do in understanding emotional neglect, very poignant reality based in the moment things, not being asked how you feel, particularly on a chronically based, on a chronic basis or feelings are being dismissed or even ignored. You see this in your wife or husband, people or emotionally conversations that are just shut down or completely avoided, ⁓ or just a lack of empathy or not experiencing the other person curious about you in any way. These are some real, tangible, reality-based, day-to-day things that you'll experience. And the obvious continuum is if that happens all the time, like most every day, then it's severe. If it happens every now and again, then that's not as big of a problem. ⁓ And understand also, as Casey said earlier, we all do those things. You can't do them with any kind of chronicity. Sorry, Casey, I just wanted to very applicable. Kasie (35:54) No, you're fine. And I think... I think what's important to remember here is that we're not talking about intent, right? I don't think for the most part, now there are some people that I think intentionally ignore their spouse or intentionally like try to withdraw that it's gotten so bad or, you know, and there may be some people who do intentionally check out of their families and their children and their responsibilities and things like that. But really what we're talking about here is the impact of that, right? Like this is not about intent. This is about the impact, right? That a person's lived experience is now that they are living in a situation where indifference is what is being radiated out in their household. That they're insignificant, that they're irrelevant in their own house. Chris (36:57) their own space where you're supposed to feel comforted and safe, John, to your point earlier. You know, you hear people, yeah, go ahead. I was just gonna finish and say like, you you hear people talking about walking on eggshells. You know, there's a lot of that that happens just because, you know, and oftentimes there is a blend as well, it occurs to me too, but I'm going to a different topic. John-Nelson Pope (37:03) Here's this is a go ahead. I'm sorry. Chris (37:26) There is emotional abuse that happens actively as well as neglect. You can have these two kind of partnering at the same time also. That's probably something to talk about. John-Nelson Pope (37:38) I was just thinking in terms of, ⁓ let's say a child has been ⁓ neglected emotionally and just a wrenching, empty feeling that that is. ⁓ I can only imagine. And I think there's sometimes, ⁓ there's that old spiritual, so sometimes I feel like a motherless child and that a person can feel like a motherless child ⁓ while being in a family that looks ostensibly like it's the perfect ⁓ middle-class family and well-rounded and all of that, good church-going people and all of that, and yet that person may be starving for ⁓ acceptance and love. There's a sense that when a person grows up and they they, like you were talking about, the pruning and all of that, and they're stifled in their emotional development, that there may be great resentment. And there's a point where even if the parent that is the one that has created that milieu, that environment of neglect or ⁓ an absence of affection, the person that has received this and has been raised in that environment, if that person has enlightenment and has developed resilient skills and is in that process, that's going to be a process where that person will need to ⁓ forgive, even though the other person that is supposed to be forgiven and should be forgiven doesn't even ask for it. Because otherwise to hold on to that will cause that person to also become a dry husk. Am I making sense or am I? Chris (39:39) Yeah, but what did you mean about dry huff? What do mean? John-Nelson Pope (39:42) Well, like a neglectful parent is a dry husk, is a person that doesn't give affection, doesn't give the embrace, doesn't give you the love. And so something is desiccated, is incapable of loving. It's dead. Chris (40:05) It's funny, I had a friend in college, John, that I was obviously very green, wasn't a therapist yet, but I was learning to be one. ⁓ He was my neighbor in college. His name was, what was his name? Joe, I think. ⁓ Man, cool dude, really enjoyed him. But he described being able to go home, sit in his living room all day long with his dad and never hear his voice. Wow. Talk about dry husk. That's kind of what you're talking about, right? John-Nelson Pope (40:37) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kasie (40:40) Yeah, and the way that this really shows up for us in adulthood, I think, is that if as a child, no one really sat with you and talked about your emotions, then when you become an adult, intimacy, emotional intimacy is going to feel so foreign to you as an adult. Because... Chris (41:04) You never had it! You know what it is, you know? John-Nelson Pope (41:05) Never had. Kasie (41:07) You didn't know what it felt like. You don't know what it looks like. And so what we see is a lot of people who in their latency teenage years, early 20s, things like that, not to go back to our one night stand episode that I missed, but I rewatched. what we see is, yeah, but what we do see is that, John-Nelson Pope (41:25) You're still doing penance for that. Kasie (41:30) we're reaching out and trying to like throw spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks when it comes to intimacy in the beginnings. And what we end up with sometimes is exactly what we wouldn't want for ourselves, which is an emotionally unavailable partner. John-Nelson Pope (41:36) Yeah. Right. Chris (41:49) And that's where, you know, you, go back Casey to think like, it's not necessarily intentional. Um, I don't, I don't think, you know, that person who never had it growing up and then doesn't offer it to his partner or her partner growing, being grown up doesn't intend to be neglectful, but you know, I mean, we got to call a spade a spade. If you're doing these things and you feel a little convicted, like, wow, I need to show up more for my. Kasie (41:54) Mm-mm. Chris (42:17) partner, wow, I need to be more open with my feelings. I mean, it's hard, but you you might be falling into a space that your hurt is hurting other people. Kasie (42:30) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (42:31) I was... Go ahead. Well, no, I was just thinking when Joy and I first got married and she thought she was married. Everything went well for the first several months and weeks and then we started getting on each other's nerves and then she said, who's this alien I married? Chris (42:33) I know, John, what are you chuckling about, Kasie (42:52) Yeah. Chris (42:53) You were an alien? John-Nelson Pope (42:54) Yeah, I was an alien, yeah, because I wasn't who I seemed. I was a good boy, and I'd always been taught to be a good boy. And that kind of slipped, the mask slipped sometimes. But actually, that was the beginning of our marriage, really, was to be able to share that, the ugliness that sometimes was behind the mask. Chris (43:23) You know, John, I appreciate you saying that and I know we've talked about it before and you've talked about it on the show. We're pretty genuine on here. You know, I mean, that was very purposeful on your part as a young man growing to be more mature, to be more open and to be able to do this. I mean, the truth is it doesn't just automatically happen or come naturally, does it? John-Nelson Pope (43:40) Now it's hard work. Kasie (43:42) Yeah. Chris (43:42) Right. Kasie (43:43) And you know, we, and I'm sure we all have our own stories and things like that, but I think something that's been in particular focus for me and really interesting is for those listeners who do not know, I am a divorced person and I got remarried three years ago. And what I noticed very early on when we got married, so we did not live together or anything like that prior to getting married. So when we got married, we moved in for the first time into the same household and blended a family together. So. I went from having two children to now having four children and three dogs. So, and in that blending process, what I noticed is that my history with my first marriage and my husband's history with his first marriage, we both had elements of emotional neglect that popped up for us as we were trying to combine into one life together. And what I saw was just complete resistance of vulnerability in a lot of ways with each other. Being afraid to almost bring our vulnerability to the situation in order to just keep calmness. And what I will tell you right now, calmness is not necessarily connection. Calmness is not connection. Just because you can keep the peace with someone does not mean that you are connected to them in a real and emotional way. Chris (45:13) You know what's funny, Casey? Since we're all doing self-disclosure suddenly during this segment, this segment is the self-disclosure segment, okay? Who you didn't know? Yeah, as I've been honest with the, you know, in the program as well, you know, having gone through separating and divorcing too, I'm not quite in your space, Casey. I haven't done the remarried thing yet. Oh, no. Because I was just listening to you thinking, you know, I mean, it really is. I mean, when you're in midlife and you're dating, it is terrifying. to think that I need to be wide open with this other person after having been hurt by going through a freaking divorce. you know, and I look around at what I'm seeing in friends and people, it's kinda like, man, people get into a place where they're like, yeah, I ain't doing that again, I ain't talking about that, I don't have emotions, I don't care. You know, I don't give a rip anymore. And you know what, when I, don't know, that's just a default position that you get into. And then you're dangerously in a space Casey, as, as you just very graciously taught us, even you in a second marriage as a therapist found neglectful elements, man, that's, that's hard to Casey. I don't want to be neglectful. Kasie (46:31) Well, I mean, it's things that we learn over time, right? So, you know, it can come in waves, like you said earlier in the show, Chris. It's not like it has to be just this woven part of your identity from childhood on. It can appear in different areas and in different facets of life. And what we want to do is we want to approach it, right? We need to approach it and talk through it. And I... I think that the best way to do that is to give yourself opportunities. Brene Brown says, the most bravest human emotion is vulnerability, right? And you have to give yourself opportunities and put yourself in the space to see if you can actually do it, right? ⁓ And that's how you get through it. And it's hard. It is hard as hell. I'm not gonna lie. It is so hard to do that, especially if you've ever been burned in a situation or by someone or through life. It is so hard to do that. But when we show up as our vulnerable self, we're showing up as our bravest self and really our most authentic self. And that's what a marriage needs and that's what a relationship needs. That's what friendship needs. That's what a parent-child relationship needs is that level of vulnerability in order to be able to show up as your authentic self. Chris (47:53) Yeah, I love that. Let me frame us up to get us a little bit close to ⁓ practical questions segment here in a minute. Because what I wanna kind of frame us up a little bit with is, I talk about an overview of mental health, right? And I call this the tale of two tapes. So there's. Kasie (47:55) because Sure. Chris (48:17) There's, it's sort of a big way, a big picture of understanding, you know, mental health conditions and why and how we have what we have. So on the one side, you very much have ⁓ biological realities, genetics, because what we're talking about here, long-term effects of neglect leads to depression and anxiety and feeling numb and attachment, insecurities, difficulty identifying feelings, some of these things that we've talked about, right? Like, There are these real things, depression and anxiety are genetic, but on the other side of the equation, there's social and emotional realities, you know, chronic or primary relationships, primary life experiences, the daily stress, the grind, right? So there's, there's this biological over here, genetics, exercise and nutrition as well, but genetics drive how you feel combined dynamically with these social and emotional experiences. And as we've heard Casey and John and I all talk, it doesn't have to be so dramatic. It doesn't have to be, you know, this, this, ⁓ physical violence or whatnot. It's just this, this chronic reality that kind of erodes your sense of self and ability to be connected. So there's, there's, it's really hard to recognize because you just don't have explosive fights. You don't have dramatic episodes oftentimes. You know, I think Casey, you or John. Said, yeah, my family was average when growing up. was just, it was okay. Not bad. Not good. I mean, it was fine. You know, things were stable. Nobody's mean. We just didn't talk about feelings. I could sit in room all day long with my dad and never hear his voice. We're just watching football. Like these are, these are powerful realities that operate in friendships, in work environments. Certainly at marriages, you would think neglect in parenting and marriage is the big area, but these do extend outward, ⁓ you know, even in our work environment. John-Nelson Pope (50:22) There was when I was growing up or younger, a younger man, or it was the idea of white Anglo-Saxon Protestants. And the idea is that you don't talk about your feelings and you don't share those things. And so it could be very superficial, extremely superficial. And so there's, you don't, there wasn't passion. And so that's, that's an environment that can be very cold. don't I don't know if families, they can appear that way. And is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Chris (50:58) Absolutely, John. Yeah. Kasie (50:59) Yeah. Chris (51:00) It's very powerful reality. And I know we've talked a lot about understanding this because, you know, I feel like guys are so many people that we have in our therapy offices on a high percentage basis that have elements of this in their life, if not extensive elements on things that are more severe or loud with the behavior and experiences that we see described. it's pretty prevalent. Kasie (51:22) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (51:27) I a client whose father committed suicide when he was five years old and he came upon the body ⁓ of his father and he says, I don't have issues. I'm only here because my wife has got me. Kasie (51:36) Mm. Chris (51:37) boy. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (51:48) got me here and he's living with that. And so he operates on a superficial level. Chris (51:59) He just doesn't see it, John. That's what I was saying. Like we're talking a lot about how do you see this? How do you know it's present? Because so many people, and you gave, that's a perfect example of somebody that you're seeing. It just, I don't think people realize this is a part of your life experience. it's deadly impactful. John-Nelson Pope (52:19) ⁓ He's a lovely man. He's a good man and a good father. he's got that. He cannot acknowledge his own contributions to the relationship and to his wife and to his son who has developmental issues. ⁓ Chris (52:28) It's almost like you don't know what you're missing. John-Nelson Pope (52:52) It's sad in some ways. Chris (52:55) ways it is very sad, you know, but there's, there's help. We can manage this, you know, you're, learning how to deal with your emotions. You're learning in therapy or you're, you're, you're, you're studying your faith tradition. I mean, we, we do grow, we do get out of these things. ⁓ but, but it has to be, as John was talking about as a young man and his marriage from an alien to a therapist, you grow, right? Kasie (53:18) Hahaha John-Nelson Pope (53:18) So yeah. Chris (53:22) I this is a segment that we want to do practical questions we've been experimenting with this I think we enjoy it. I'm John and Casey how you like this so far the practical question segment how are you experiencing it. Kasie (53:32) ⁓ It's fine. John-Nelson Pope (53:36) As someone who is not heard a lot of times, this is challenging for me. ⁓ Chris (53:44) Is it? John-Nelson Pope (53:45) Yeah, but no, I like it. It's fine. It's fine. I like it. Chris (53:47) Okay. Well, what we do is we. What's that? John-Nelson Pope (53:56) I'll get to like it even more. I will get to like it even more. The more I'm exposed to this, this is like exposure therapy. Chris (54:05) I'm not sure what you're all's mean, Casey. Kasie (54:09) YARP. Chris (54:11) What we try to do with a segment of practical questions is we take a question and we ask you the listener as though we're a therapist talking to you through the screen. It's a way to kind of summarize or feel like what it is that we're talking about. instance, I'll go first. You know, do you feel emotionally alone, you know, in isolation from others? Sometimes maybe even when you're not physically alone, you know, have you ever felt like you're in a room with your family and they're just they don't know how you're feeling. They don't know how you're you're experiencing the day or, and you might just wonder like, do they even, do my people even know I'm here? Like, do you feel emotionally alone even when you're not physically alone? Next question. Kasie (55:00) Yeah, I'll take the second one. So, listener, I want you to ask yourself this question. When I express my feelings, are they engaged with or are they simply bypassed? Because this is what we're looking to do. Is in any kind of relationship that you're in, right? You want to receive some sort of validation. Now please hear me. This doesn't mean agreement, right? Where someone has to agree with you all the time. But you would like to know that your feelings when you're expressing them are at least engaged with, they're entertained, right? Like someone is hearing what you have to say and hopefully they are interacting with that. If that is not the case, if they're not being engaged with, if they're being bypassed, then chances are there are some elements of what's going on within the confines of your relationship, whatever that is, whether it be romantic, friendship, whatever the case is, that there is some neglectful behavior happening. Chris (56:13) Perfect. And John, speak to somebody out there in the world. John-Nelson Pope (56:17) Okay, I'm going to take the fourth question. Then, I struggle to name one I'm feeling at all? And listener, I think a lot of times we're taught to be reserved, pass a turn, or just to talk superficially. And we don't know and we're unable to describe, we don't have the vocabulary to describe what we're feeling. Kasie (56:20) Ha! John-Nelson Pope (56:44) if you have this subtle ache in your gut and you don't know and you can't connect it with anything, and I think we were talking about making connections with words, with feelings, is to be able to expand that vocabulary so that you could say and explore the subtleties of saying, yeah, I do feel ⁓ alone. I feel lonely. and be able to tell the difference between the two. There's a vast difference between the two. Do you feel ⁓ anxious? Do you feel, in a sense, not seen or not heard? And then you find a word to describe that, and then you explore that. And you go into those recesses and you say, okay, I'm going to go into this area, and I'm going to see what it's like. I'm going to... ⁓ experience what it really feels like to be alone and I don't like it. I'm not going to avoid it. I'm going to feel it and I'm going to then find another word in a way that I can then use it and build on my ⁓ personality, my build on how I can better communicate to someone. Even if there's somebody that I love who doesn't seem to validate me, I can validate myself and it's okay to be able to have that acceptance, that unconditional ⁓ acceptance of oneself, even with warts and all, even with the blemishes and you move on from that. I don't know. Chris (58:35) Casey, what's funny is ⁓ I believe the Pope suggested that he doesn't like and needs to like more or whatever the practical suggestion question. And I feel like he just spoke to the heart of not just one listener out there, but maybe many. What do you say? Well done. That is a new section, the practical section's question so that we get to talk directly to you because that's what we want to do. And as a matter of fact, Kasie (58:49) Yeah, for sure. John-Nelson Pope (58:51) Yeah. Chris (59:01) John Victoria and I are at Metrolina Psychotherapy Associates. If you're around the Charlotte area, we're here ready and willing to kind of work with you. Got a phone number, 704-461-8253, and we have DW that answers the phone. Casey, how do they find you? Kasie (59:17) Yeah, so I am in practice for myself, Kasey Morgan Counseling, PLLC. So you can call me at 980-858-5413. Again, that's 980-858-5413. Chris (59:23) Yay! See, because here's the thing, you know, when we talk about neglect and different things that you're really experiencing, you know, we're not, we're not, we're focused a lot, like I said before, about how to identify this, because so many people are walking around not seeing it. But you know, I feel like what happens is you begin to get out of your family. Not that your family is necessarily bad or away from your partner and with your friends. If you're, if you're, if you're just allowing yourself to be around other people, you will come across people that see you. You will experience a girlfriend that says, hey, you know, you're cute and I want to talk to you. You'll find a guy that wants to give you love and attention and date you, you know, and so that may feel foreign. And I think there's a natural process that you begin, you know, to kind of experiment. And John, did, seriously, your practical question talking to the listener there kind of expounded upon like, you know, getting outside of yourself and taking a risk to identify what you feel and then use a little vulnerability to express it. John-Nelson Pope (1:00:36) Yeah. The more words you can use to describe it, the further you go out and expand your world. That's right. Okay. Chris (1:00:44) Right. Say that again? John-Nelson Pope (1:00:48) The greater your vocabulary expands of how you express and feel, have your feelings and can express your feelings, the greater outreach you have and reach the world and talk to someone and go outside of yourself. Chris (1:01:06) Isolation sucks. John-Nelson Pope (1:01:08) Yes, Kasie (1:01:09) Well, so this is what I think too, and this is part of this how to recover process. First and foremost, I think a lot of people, including you the listener, ⁓ you may not even be aware, right? I hope that this show has brought some awareness because more than likely, you are not aware that these things have ultimately occurred unless they are blatantly obvious in your life. What you may be noticing are a lot of the other things that we kind of talked about today. Do you find that things that are of an inconvenience tend to make you blow up and have big anger outburst? Do you find that it's hard to regulate your emotions and that you usually just abandon yourself and give up on feeling the things that you feel like you should be feeling? Do you find yourself striving for overachievement because that's the only tinge of fulfillment that you're getting? If that is the case, among a lot of the other symptoms that we talked about, John-Nelson Pope (1:01:50) Yeah, practice. Kasie (1:02:11) then it is worth exploring. Everybody has to start somewhere. And so I think for me, the place to start with recovery is within yourself. And to kind of jump on what John had said, which is what are the things that you're experiencing inside of you that do not feel like it is quite right? And I don't mean normal because that's just a setting on the dryer. But I do mean something that feels like I'm having disproportionate reactions, I'm having disproportionate thoughts and feelings towards things that I can notice in other people that they're not having. So be honest. Chris (1:02:55) I love that, just a setting on the dryer. All right, listen, we need a taxi in for a landing, guys. That was awesome, Casey. ⁓ Neil comes out behind the curtain on the show. He gets to judge a friendly competition, John Pope. This is all friendly, brother. This is the shrink wrap-up, where we wrap up our thoughts of the show, and ⁓ Neil gets to decide which one was most inclusive of the show, or ⁓ what makes the most sense to him. John-Nelson Pope (1:02:56) Okay. Kasie (1:02:58) setting. Chris (1:03:24) in wrapping us up. ⁓ You guys agreeable if I go first? Don, I gotta get a unanimous. So listen, I was just thinking like, you know, in my wrap up, I want to make a suggestion that quite possibly all of us have experienced neglectful moments. If not having had a full blown neglectful relationship. So I really hope that you haven't gone through the show and thought this doesn't apply to me because I'm sure John-Nelson Pope (1:03:31) Yes. Yeah. Chris (1:03:58) that you've had experiences that have been just that neglectful in the ways that we've described it, not by anybody's mean intent, but just really, really know and find that instead how this applies to me. Because the damning effects don't have to continue to run your life. And without knowing and realizing being neglected in a certain way or another way really embeds its way into the way that you experience the world and perceive and your value and what you offer and you know the the importance that you have in the life of the people around you so I mean it breaks my heart to think that you might not feel that way yeah if you don't if you have elements of this reach out as John talked about don't isolate don't be alone you hear me saying that a lot because you'll find out not only that you do but you'll find out that other people absolutely love you and care about what you have to think and what you feel Find it, look for it. Kasie (1:04:59) Mmm. Chris (1:05:01) Alright, next. Kasie (1:05:05) Go ahead, John. John-Nelson Pope (1:05:06) Okay, I'm gonna do this and I've done this before like this and I didn't win. So, ⁓ but I'm gonna do this anyway. Kasie (1:05:13) Ha ha! John-Nelson Pope (1:05:20) somewhere, somehow, somebody must have kicked you around some. Tell me, why do you want to lay there and revel in your abandon? Honey, it don't make no difference to me, baby. Everybody's got to fight to be free. You don't have to live like a refugee. Now, baby, you don't have to live like a refugee. And this is I'm saying is that you expand your vocabulary, you reach out into the darkness and Kasie (1:05:43) Correct. John-Nelson Pope (1:05:50) and you have that leap of faith and you say, okay, there's someone like ⁓ Casey said, there is, and that also like Chris said, there's somebody that is out there that will listen and wants to embrace you. So that's all I got to say. Kasie (1:06:09) Mm-hmm. Yeah. So you know. John-Nelson Pope (1:06:15) Tom Petty was a great rock theologian. So, yeah. Kasie (1:06:18) For sure. So if you're finding yourself in any kind of situation or relationship right now and you feel that you are unseen, unheard, emotionally alone, I wanna tell you right now that it's not because you're too much. I wanna tell you that it's not because you've done something wrong or that you're not deserving of validation or love. What I want to tell you is that something inside of you either doesn't recognize what the needs actually are and how to get them met. or you're existing as an adult who maybe lived around other adults who never taught you these skills. It's not about what's wrong with you, it's about what happened to you. But here is the good news. You don't have to be powerless anymore over these things. You can learn the language of your emotions and you can stop abandoning yourself and accepting poor behavior or unfair treatment in situations by understanding John-Nelson Pope (1:06:58) Mm-hmm. Kasie (1:07:20) and valuing yourself. You can become just emotionally safe for you. When you become emotionally safe for you, then others will either have to follow suit or not play the game anymore. So be you, stay true, happy Valentine's Day, and I'm out. Chris (1:07:45) All right. Neil, I don't know, brother. What you got to say? I mean, we're starting to have prepared shrink wrap-ups here. I didn't know that was a prepared thing. Nicely done. John-Nelson Pope (1:07:45) Mic Drop. Neil (1:07:56) you Kasie (1:07:56) What's prepared? Chris (1:07:57) He had lyrics, man! Homeboy's bringing lyrics, You can't tell me that was memorized, alright? That was nicely done. Yeah! Kasie (1:07:59) ⁓ John had lyrics. Yeah. What, Johns? gosh, yeah. John-Nelson Pope (1:08:10) Yeah. Well, everything is a song to me. So that's... Chris (1:08:11) What you got, Neil? Neil (1:08:11) I'm. Chris (1:08:14) Yeah. Neil (1:08:17) Alright so, wow, those are three good, you guys are killing me. Okay so, today I'm gonna give it to Chris. I really liked Chris's ⁓ wrap up. I think it was really concise of what we needed to hear but I mean, the joy of listening to the three of you guys come back and talk about and encapsulate what you guys talk about in the show is just, that's like the best part about the show that I do with you guys so. I'm blessed to have that, but today I give it to Chris. Chris (1:08:47) Wow, that's cool. I that. This was a little bit of a new thing. We started a little bit in 2025. Yeah, I think we're really starting to have fun with it here in 2026. So I appreciate you guys. I appreciate you playing along with us, Mr. Pope. John-Nelson Pope (1:08:48) I agree. I agree. I agree. Kasie (1:08:51) really good. Play us. John-Nelson Pope (1:09:05) Well, as you know now, you know that I'm competitive and so that's so. Chris (1:09:12) I knew it would it come out, brother. I knew it. John-Nelson Pope (1:09:15) I'm competitive, Chris (1:09:18) I love it. It's a friendly competition on through a therapist. I listen to hope we're helpful. Hope we're making you smile a little bit laugh, but definitely get some information about really important things. Because as we move along in this world across this great world that we have in every nation, this is an international podcast that demonstrates like rail mental health issues that are becoming even more important in our lives as we go forward. So take care of you. Well, listen guys and gals, we'll see you next week. John-Nelson Pope (1:09:49) Thank