In this episode, Emotional Abuse vs. Physical Abuse, we take a clear, compassionate look at emotional abuse and why its impact can be just as devastating as physical abuse—even without visible scars. Through a therapist’s lens, we explore how emotional abuse shows up in everyday relationships, why it’s so often minimized or dismissed, and how it quietly erodes identity, self-trust, and emotional safety over time. We unpack the psychological and neurological toll, the confusing mix of harm and kindness that keeps people off balance, and the powerful role of fear, hope, and survival in why people stay. Most importantly, we speak directly to listeners with practical questions to help identify emotional abuse, challenge self-blame, and begin the healing process of rebuilding trust in yourself, setting boundaries, and restoring your sense of worth.
Tune in to see Emotional Abuse vs Physical Abuse Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How do we recognize abuse when there are no visible injuries?
- Why is emotional abuse so often minimized or dismissed—by victims and others?
- What happens to a person’s sense of self when emotional abuse persists over time?
Links referenced during the show:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jts.21920
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/individualdiagnosis
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/relationshiptoothers
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #343 Transcription
Chris (00:02) Hello, this is Chris Gazdick with Thru A Therapist Eyes coming to you on February 5th at 6.33 in the morning after snowmageddon has hit our area last week. We had a weird recording last week. We still haven't gotten it up, actually posted, but we're doing this show live with you on YouTube. We are licensed clinical therapists at Thru A Therapist Eyes doing real clinical work every day. this is where we talk about honestly about what really helps people. We fire up on Thursdays usually about 6.15, 6.30 to join with you. It's a great way to join with us on YouTube live. We also have contact at theropistize.com to interact with us. We want to bring the show to you and give you some stereotypes, up some stereotypes, disseminate information about mental health and substance abuse. And your job is to help us get found. So we bring this to you. we ask you to give us five stars, because Mr. Pope is hanging out with us. How are you, sir? John-Nelson Pope (01:05) I'm doing well, thank you, consider it. Chris (01:07) And I always point out how upset you get if we don't get five stars. John-Nelson Pope (01:11) I do and you did it for me. And so I have nothing to say. I'm speechless. Chris (01:13) Ha All right then, we'll move on and say Miss Casey is with us. Miss Casey, how are you this evening? ⁓ wow. Got a heart. Kasie (01:20) Lovely. ⁓ I am in the loving spirit. So it is February. It's a great month. It is time to get it rocking and rolling. Chris (01:32) My birthday month. Kasie (01:33) Well, happy early birthday. Neil (01:33) Really? Is it really your birthday? Chris (01:36) saying. Yeah, my birthday is at the end of the month. So Victoria will be joining us soon. She is in traffic and taking care of kids and she is in that stage of life. We've been patient with her in that regard. So this is where you get insights directly from a panel of therapists in your home or personal time in your car, knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way. And then I have the book out, the books. I am a multi book person through a therapist size. Shocking that that would be in the title of my books, but it is indeed what the title is. One on marriage, one on the self, check it out. Subscribe, click, hit the bell, do all that stuff, really helps us out. Truly it does. We want to get found. We need some YouTube subscribers this year. We need to reach and grow and get to the point where we're at. Because this, we believe, is really important mental health content and becoming even more important every day as we go through this crazy world. That's what we believe. This is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out. together and I didn't even say that this is episode what Casey 340 something 3 343 and this is actually Victoria's topic she she wanted to talk about emotional abuse versus physical abuse and then she's not here you wanted to talk about one night stands Casey and then and you weren't here like I don't know what's going on with our group John what are these ladies doing Kasie (02:35) 343. Nice fans. John-Nelson Pope (02:54) I don't know, but yeah. So. Kasie (02:54) Falling apart. Chris (02:57) Ha ha ha. Kasie (02:57) I don't know either, but that's a really cool style you're drinking out of, Chris. Chris (03:01) That is the hillbilly moonshine stein. Aye, Neil, Neil, what happened this year, buddy? Come on, come on behind the curtain. You got this. What is this? John-Nelson Pope (03:04) Yes. Yes. Kasie (03:05) I it. Neil (03:12) ⁓ I don't know. I don't remember. I don't remember. It is the trophy cup for the Fantasy League. That Chris rigged this year by not doing the live draft that when I asked him to do. But we're not going to bring that up. Chris (03:14) Come on. Yeah, you do. Kasie (03:15) Help Dillian. Chris (03:31) I did not rig it, but even if I did, Neil, this is how many years in last four years that I am the Hillbilly Moonshine Stein champion from the Hillbilly Football League? That'd be three or four. I'll answer for you. Sorry, I've lost half the audience because they don't care about this. Neil (03:42) think it's three. I think it was three because I won my first year there, remember? I came in, won it, and then I've been out of it the last three years. So yeah. John-Nelson Pope (03:52) I think hey Chris some people might be offended by calling yourself a hillbilly and ⁓ I consider it as a badge of honor to be a hillbilly yeah I am too yeah Chris (03:52) That's true. You did. Absolutely brother, I'm a hillbilly all the way. Are you kidding me? Yeah, I love that. You did spend some time in the hillbilly mountains. You are a hillbilly. Love that. All right, Casey, we lost half the audience. What are we talking about? Come on, help me get back. John-Nelson Pope (04:10) Yeah, I was born there. Kasie (04:16) Yeah, so today we're going to be covering emotional abuse versus physical abuse and just talking through how the different patterns of damage can be very similar, more severe emotionally and things like that. So we're really going to try to jump in here and answer the three following questions. How do we recognize abuse when there are no visible injuries? Why is emotional abuse so often minimized or dismissed by victims and others? and what happens to a person's sense of self when emotional abuse persists over time. Chris (04:51) You know, I think Casey, honestly, one of the biggest things here that we will talk about right off the get-go is defining all of this, like recognizing this when there's no visible injuries is really a a huge reality. You know, very, very early on in the show, the history of the through a therapist dies, Neil, think actually way before even Neil was around, was Craig and I, and ⁓ I'm curious, Neil, if you were around, do you remember MJ Vess? Neil (05:21) She was right before I hopped on. Yeah, I think you got talking to her after I got there. John-Nelson Pope (05:22) Yes, I do. Chris (05:24) right before you hopped on. ⁓ I wouldn't think you would know, John. Um... I could be wrong, but she... Yeah, she... MJ was amazing. She... Oh, you do? Okay. Yeah, that's right. We... I hooked you up with her to help her with her projects and stuff. What was the name of her project? Because honestly, it's slipping my brain. John-Nelson Pope (05:33) We're talking, it's a she, right? Yeah, I know her, Yeah. ⁓ It's been a while. Take care. Chris (05:51) Yeah, it's been a few years now, but she she shared her personal story and It would go very early on and that you'll have to go to the website through a therapist eyes calm to kind of get that but man She MJ shared her story of personal experience with domestic violence. It was full-blown domestic violence, but John she never she never endured any physical Being physically hit she was never damaged in a physical way But I mean the extensive nature of her domestic violence as the object person her husband was John-Nelson Pope (06:15) It was very toxic, you know, yeah. Chris (06:20) rough on her to the point that one of the things I remember about MJ's story is she fell out of her truck moving something or whatever broke her hip crawled into the house somehow over hours made it to the living room chair where she stayed in that chair and was not able to move from that chair and ⁓ he did nothing to help her for 36 hours or something she stayed you know in that in that chair and and trapped and not supported, not cared for, ⁓ and many other aspects of her story. So Casey, that first question, how do we recognize abuse when there are no visible injuries is, I feel like a really big thing when people talk about emotional abuse. Kasie (07:06) yeah absolutely because here is another big characteristic of emotional abuse is that it's not talked about and it's not recognized usually even by the person that is being victimized in the situation until after they're kind of removed from the situation, out of the situation, or have been given really good therapy input, things like that, coaching around it. So I think that's one of the biggest parts of it, is that a lot of times people who have been the victim of emotional abuse don't even realize it's happening when it's happening. Chris (07:44) Case in point, I will be honest and say, honestly, I feel like in my life, my personal life, I have had elements. I'm gonna say elements and I'm gonna make a point about why I'm saying elements in the back end of this. But, you know, I never really considered it as abusive, but there were elements that I personally have gone through both early in my life and whatnot up and through till, you most recently where, you know, there are things that are experienced, you know, and... And I never really realized that until, you know, more recently thinking about in hindsight, some things Casey, I mean, you know, and I know, and I know you shared yourself. we did a whole episode with you and, and, and earlier in life, you know, with some dating stuff, it's, ⁓ it's powerful, but I say elements because I'm curious what John and you Casey think or feel about this next sort of statement that I am afraid. And this is why the first segment here of defining emotional abuse is going to be really important because I do get fearful that people like use our phrases and use them incorrectly and banter about the term ⁓ very liberally sometimes. And that I think can cause some problems. What do think, John? John-Nelson Pope (09:00) narcissist ⁓ no it is the the term de jour right now is narcissist yeah Chris (09:12) Yeah. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (09:15) So there's a of a fastness with using some of those terminology, jargon. Chris (09:22) You have to use a different word than fast illness. What is that? John-Nelson Pope (09:26) They're fast and loose. Fast and loose. Yeah. So. Chris (09:29) I'll fast and loose. Gotcha. Yeah, people are quick to say I've been emotionally abused sometimes that, ⁓ I'm not so sure. So that's where, what do you think about that, Casey? Kasie (09:40) Yeah, well, first and foremost, I want to say for, you know, me as a clinician and everybody on this podcast, and I think that we would all be in agreement with this that. We are not here to define your personal experience with any of this stuff in terms of whether or not you are or are not being abused. But it is important to put some reception of parameters around it so that every time someone hurts our feelings, we're not going and telling people that we're being emotionally abused by somebody else. That this is the... Chris (10:13) I love that. Can you say that again? Kasie (10:15) Yeah, that every time someone hurts John-Nelson Pope (10:15) That's beautiful. Yeah. Chris (10:15) Really? Kasie (10:17) our feelings, that we're not going and running around and telling someone that we're being emotionally abused. There is a stark difference between abuse and someone hurting your feelings. Chris (10:28) Yeah. I love that you put it that way. That's as always, you're very dictationally awesome. How'd I do, John? How'd that sound? Kasie (10:36) Thanks. John-Nelson Pope (10:37) I... that sounded ⁓ very erudite. Chris (10:42) Alright. Kasie (10:44) I'm gonna get a dictionary. Chris (10:46) What's happening? Alright, let's jump at it. Let's jump at it. What is emotional abuse, clearly, as much as we can? What are the things that we really think about? I know we've got some notes there, but let's just go off the cuff here and think out loud. You know, we say, you know, the new thing I like to say is this is where we come and we talk honestly about what works, what really helps, what really makes sense between us group of therapists. So, I mean, I've heard things that doesn't sound like sexual abuse. People are feeling abused. I've heard things that definitely sound abuse where people don't think that they were entering into an abusive situation. I just revealed I feel like I've had stuff throughout my life that has been that way myself. So what, you know, what is it? What do you guys think about when we really try to get into what this is? Notes notwithstanding. Kasie (11:39) it's the it's the breakdown of a person by another person using words. Chris (11:48) Hmm. Wow. John-Nelson Pope (11:49) So it's depreciating people, their value, devaluing people, or trying to change them from being a subject. What is... Kasie (11:52) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (12:04) existential philosophy is an I-Thou relationship. I and the other person is a Thou and making them into an object. I-It. And so you put them below you if the abuser would do that. Kasie (12:23) Yeah, and I think it's multifaceted and systemic. I don't think it's just one directional. ⁓ I don't think it's just saying or speaking to existence things that are solely focused on just one particular area of a person's life or one particular thing that a person may not do well, but it's systemic and it crosses multiple categories in a lot of ways usually, but it can be subtle. ⁓ And then subtlety over time gets more more pronounced when the person who's doing the abusing isn't fed by the reaction of the other person. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (13:00) So you're saying it's cumulative. Chris (13:05) Yeah, you know, I like that cumulative and chronic is our two words that I think are important here. Like you said, this isn't somebody that was just mean to you one time or that somebody hurt your feelings or that you had a bad fight. There is abusiveness all around. mean, call somebody a curse word once and you could say that's abusive. You know, that's just definitely not kind. You're tearing somebody's personage down. But I think when we think about a relationship of abuse, they're Maybe that helps me listening to you too, because I think there's an element of chronicity here. There's a gradual and a regular and a routine breaking down of a core elements of another person. And that's hard. That's insidious and undermines a whole person's understanding of their own self. And it is really, really hard to have enough, Casey, you love the term, internal resiliency. Right? To have enough internal resiliency to overcome that. It almost might be arguably not possible for a human. That just came out in real time. Does that sound crazy? To say that it's almost not possible to have enough internal resiliency when you're in an emotionally abusive circumstance? Curious. Kasie (14:22) Well, I am a person that believes you have survived 100 % of the hardest days you've ever had. So if you are still alive and have air in your lungs, you can survive emotional abuse. It just takes concerted effort and practice and reflection to be able to do so. And to leave the stimulus, yeah. John-Nelson Pope (14:42) Again, mindfulness. Victoria (14:43) I agree with Casey. Chris (14:47) What's that, John? John-Nelson Pope (14:49) mindfulness. Victoria (14:49) That's not John, that was me. ⁓ Chris (14:51) I know, was John also, John-Nelson Pope (14:54) Okay. No, it's mindfulness too. In other words, I think if you're going to be resilient, you have to be able to not... Even though the person that is perpetrating the violence on you, the abuse... ⁓ It's still the person that receives it has to be able to step away a bit and be mindful of it and that builds resiliency, I think. Chris (15:26) Right. Well, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I, I thank you Casey, cause I didn't mean to intimate that, you know, we can't overcome it. I'm just saying it's, it's really hard to stay in the space and have a full dose of emotional resiliency and kind of, you know, stay in there in light of the chronicity, in light of the repetitive, in light of the depth that, that, that, that this can create. Victoria, let me bring you in. We got Victoria back. Hello, dear. How are you? She made it. Kasie (15:35) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (15:51) Victorious the glorious. Victoria (15:51) Yes, some random traffic that I never run into. Of course I hit it today. Chris (15:57) So we are on a segment, what defining. We're really, without the show notes and whatnot, just curious how you define this and what you see as sort of emotional abuse. Victoria (16:13) Like how I define emotional abuse. I don't know if I've ever had to do that ⁓ off the cusp. But I mean, yeah, like. Chris (16:16) Mm-hmm. Victoria (16:29) things that over time wear on your emotional state from another person, like things that you receive from another person that impact your emotional abilities to like regulate and things. I don't know, I'm not really thinking. Chris (16:49) You did okay. And honestly, I'm glad you struggled there and I appreciate your genuineness and struggling because it really is a struggle. Okay. This is not an easy thing to do. So in preparation, we talked a little bit about things that we're looking at. ⁓ This involves heavy doses of criticism. This involves humiliation that is targeted at, Don, you said tearing people down, right? This involves humiliation, tearing other people down. This involves an element of contempt, which is part of ⁓ Gottman's Four Horsemen, but it's tearing down the very fabric ⁓ of a person's characteristics. That's what contempt really means. Everyone's oftentimes heard of gaslighting, but this is another strong element that you will see where you're Kasie (17:31) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (17:35) Mm-hmm. Chris (17:45) You're undermining the observation ability of somebody and making them believe stuff that really isn't true, that undermines their integrity of their own confidence, of their own observational skills. Intimidation. Men can be intimidated by their partner. This is a, am in control and you are not in control. And conveying that, notice the word conveying that in a strong way that erodes over Again, you got to remember the chronicity here, the chronic aspect, ⁓ the punishments that you deliver or get punished for simply wanting to go hang out with your buddies for a football night or your girlfriends at an outing and the withdrawal, the shutdown, the stonewalling that you'll get. We are horrible to each other sometimes. The control disguised as I love you and I want you to do the right thing and I'm telling you what to do instead of honoring your personal space to make decisions. No bruises, no physical punches, no necessary need to incorporate blood, broken bones, life or limb. It just, but it does get to a point where you really get fearful, ultimately fearful of your ability to continue living in the emotional space that you've created for yourself or for life or limb. I know that's a lot. How do I do there guys? John-Nelson Pope (19:12) I think you did well. Kasie (19:13) I think you did well because at the end of all of this, everybody deserves a life free from fear, control, or harm. So if you don't get anything else from the podcast today, please know this. You deserve a life free from control, fear, and harm. If you are in a situation where any one of those three elements are present, there is a high likelihood that there is abuse also present. whether it's emotional, physical or otherwise. But I think that that's something that just needed to be clearly stated and I just felt moved to say it in that moment. Chris (19:47) No, I love that. John-Nelson Pope (19:48) Otherwise, I think there's another aspect of it that can be very generational. That this abuse can, ⁓ verbal abuse, or even the physical abuse, can be transmitted from one generation. The person that is abused, particularly in the case of men, ⁓ they end up becoming what they hated being. I think there was a commercial back in the 70s that showed a jail where people's men's arms are hanging out the jail and it was a cry against domestic abuse and they said that they had someone, a significant other, a parent, a father, a mother that engaged in physical domestic violence. So this has been a problem for generations, I think. Kasie (20:52) Yeah, but the greatest thing about cycles though, is that you have the opportunity to end it with yourself. That at some point, whether it's you're the person that's been victimized or you are the aggressor, you have the opportunity to end the cycle for yourself if you're willing to do the work. Chris (21:13) That is a little bit of a foreshadowing, dear, for sure. You know, because we're getting to like, what do we do in this circumstances? How does this work? A core assertion first though, in what makes this hard to identify and what it is, is this is really, whether it's intentional or John, as you said, we become what we do not want to be when we're acting this way. And I do find in working with abusing individuals, meaning the person who is the offending party. ⁓ Both women, by the way, and in men. making that point because men are affected with this too. John, we don't even have a platform for that, I feel like. Side note. ⁓ But the core reality here is that whether you intend to or just fall into it because we become what we don't want to be, you're targeting the other person and you're damaging them in ways that last way longer than it takes any body to heal. Victoria (21:52) Oof. Chris (22:13) right? Victoria, let me pull you in again and see like how's this helping? Can you put better words or not better, more words on what it is? Because actually this was your topic. Remember? Victoria (22:23) It was my topic ⁓ and I can thank one of my clients for that because we had like a whole We had a whole what not a whole session but a good part of our last session was talking about how it was more along the lines about how like emotional abuse gets overlooked because It doesn't show up as bruises and you know physical ailments of like broken bones or whatever ⁓ And so yeah, that was more of like the reasoning why I thought we like it deserved to be talked about is because then people think that like, like my client thought that it was normal in a relationship because that's what they had known for like 15 plus years. And so, ⁓ you know, and she's in a new relationship right now. Well, moved on and like, she's struggling with like accepting that like she deserves better and like that that's not normal and that you know people it's not normal yeah for your partner to ⁓ attack you in like an emotional way and consistently like like not like Chris I think I've heard Chris say earlier like it's not just like a one-time thing it's a repetitive like over and over John-Nelson Pope (23:28) you Victoria (23:49) thing that happens. so, but I agree with Casey that, you know, everyone has the power to like stop the cycle with themselves and not continue it forward. Chris (24:01) Yeah, I was listening to you and just thinking about how she thought it was normal. And I think that speaks to what we're highlighting a little bit in so far as feeling that this is just sort of the way it goes. mean, if you've been married for the first time and you're in your first significant relationship, or even before you're married, maybe this is your first significant relationship, or you're just not as experienced with multiple people. Victoria (24:09) Yeah. Ahem. Chris (24:29) and you know that there's ups and downs, you know that there's fights, you know that there's problems, you know, and so you begin to realize the way that we're interacting is just a part of that normalcy. But here's an important indicator I feel like. If you begin... differently than you have a tendency to in your life. If you begin to have a tendency that is different for you in your life to question yourself, to question your characteristics, to make statements that are critical of yourself, and you don't typically do that, that is a part of the relationship, time frame in your life. A year, two, three years into this marriage and you've had generally confident statements about yourself, but now you're finding yourself saying, hey, I'm too sensitive or I talk too much or I should be stronger than this shouldn't bother me. I'm too much in my feels. I'm not tough enough. I need to get stronger or statements like this, right? Like, suck it up. That John-Nelson Pope (25:40) Suck it up. Chris (25:43) That is, when it's a switch, that's the important piece. When it switches because of the energy or the statements that you're receiving from your partner, I feel like that's a big sign. Victoria (25:55) Yeah, but a lot of times I think that yes, it's a sign, but people don't pick up on it. Chris (26:04) Well, absolutely, I'm saying that if you find yourself doing that, yeah. Victoria (26:06) I mean, because I think, yeah, because I think, yeah, I think when people point it out and they're like, you know, they have that aha aha moment where like their friends or, know, whatever, someone sharing a story about their personal life and they're like, that's kind of happening to me, too. But yeah, but it happened a lot of times. It happens so. Especially if it is like your one, I guess I really didn't really show up, I think you say, but like a lot of times it happens so gradual that. Like it is more of like an aha moment at some point of like, wait, when did this happen? And then there's not like a significant moment that defined it defined when it happened. It's like little tiny moments over 15 or however many years that now have led you to like, oh, well, like I second guess myself all the time or I don't trust my own emotions or I, know, whatever fill in the blank. And then Or until you go to therapy one day or something and you say something about yourself and your therapist is like, wait, whoa, like, where did that come from? You know, like. Chris (27:15) Let's focus on that a minute, Victoria. What do you mean by that? From the therapist's perspective. Victoria (27:20) like where did that come from? ⁓ So I mean sometimes like when clients say things in at least in my sessions, sometimes if it I won't say like red flaggy but if it kind of is like a flag like it's like whoa like that's not really how most people think about themselves or think about a situation then I might inquire a little bit more about like tell me where that thought process came from like how did we get there? Where did, like, have you always thought that way about yourself or is that like a new thing or, and kind of dive more deeper into it to figure out like, okay, was this there before this relationship with this person? And so it's like a deeper issue, a past thing, maybe a different relationship or how someone grew up like their childhood or whatever, or their experiences, or like, if they're, you can kind of track like. did this way of thinking start around or after the time I started dating this person or I started this relationship with this person. And so then we have little sneaky ways as therapists to like get people to talk more about like how they think about things or where that comes from. And then I think it can be eye-opening when someone says, ⁓ I don't know where that came from. Then that gives us the opportunity to like dive deeper into it and figure out like, John-Nelson Pope (28:41) Mm-hmm. Victoria (28:42) Where did that come from? How did we get to thinking about ourselves in this way or about this situation in this way? Kasie (28:51) Yeah, I would like to go and say this at this point. This is not about what's wrong with you. It is about what has happened to you and what has continued. And sometimes it's even prior to this relationship that you've been kind of primed to be the person that is vulnerable in this setting. But it can happen to anyone. If you don't believe me, we did a show about it. It can happen to anyone. I was on it and I gave my story about how it can happen to anyone. it can. It can happen to any person. This is not discriminatory of certain groups or subsets, but there are a lot of subsets who will not report that it's happening to them. And so men, I'm speaking to you. People of different demographics outside of Caucasian, I'm speaking to you. John-Nelson Pope (29:15) Mm-hmm. Kasie (29:45) outside of white American culture is so far more or less likely to report any type of abuse, especially emotional abuse when it comes to situations. And what I find in my practice is that we are a society of people that want belonging and love so much that we are in the practice of picking up red flags while dating and trying to turn them yellow to convince ourselves that these people are not doing what we think that they're doing. John-Nelson Pope (30:16) She's so good. She's so good. Yeah, I was just thinking that... that you were talking about, it couldn't happen to me or it couldn't happen to us because let's say I'm a corporate lawyer and I'm very successful book editor. Well, that happened in New York City in the 1980s had a nest bomb and the... and her husband, who was Joel Steinberg, who actually did ⁓ adoptions as part of his living, and he beat the crap out of his children, his illegally adopted daughter and his wife. Now, there was a lot of verbal abuse and what caused the most damage, had a nest bomb set, was that it was the verbal. Kasie (31:00) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (31:22) It was the verbal aspects that kept her in line and kept her from complaining and seeking help. And she was convinced that she was completely unworthy. And ⁓ they lost their daughter as a result of that, of his abuse. Kasie (31:42) Okay. John-Nelson Pope (31:44) and she was actually charged and she went to trial for participating in this abuse. And she was eventually acquitted because it became very obvious that she had been brainwashed in that relationship. And she was convinced that she was defective. And here's a woman that had a master's degree and was completely... ⁓ torn down to the very ⁓ core and she had no personality left. Victoria (32:20) Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking like when Casey was pointing out people like, ⁓ I don't know if there's like any studies on it. This is just an assumption of mine. like therapists were probably in that same call out category because we think we are less likely to say something because as therapists we think, this is literally our job to like help other people in these situations. Chris (32:21) She had no personality left. Wow. Right. Kasie (32:23) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (32:24) Yeah. Victoria (32:49) Don't you think we would be able to pick up on things being done to us as a therapist? And like I tell all of my clients, like I even have my own therapist. Her name is Shay and I love her. like, you know, I, like, I, and I talk about the fact, I openly talk about the fact that I go to therapy because even as a therapist, we can still be blind to the things that were that were also involved in in our personal life. So I think like therapists would also be included in that, probably don't always speak up and say, like, you know, I'm currently in an emotionally abusive or even physically or any abusive relationship because, yeah, people would assume, yeah, but aren't you a therapist? Like, shouldn't you be able to point out the red flags and all these other things? John-Nelson Pope (33:44) Well. Chris (33:45) 100%. And the thing is, I want to circle a little bit ways back to where Victoria, you were saying some things, because I think I want to peel back the curtain a little bit and talk about it from a therapist perspective, through a therapist's eyes. Which by the way, Casey, your show was episode 112. Yeah. 112, it happened to me. Yeah, man. John-Nelson Pope (33:48) Gonna make him yellow. Kasie (34:09) Thank you. Now we've came a long way. Victoria (34:13) Right? Chris (34:15) I know we're 343 now and thank you for sharing that because you need to hear Casey's story in detail and she will guide you through what her experience was and how we came out of this. But Victoria, like this whole idea of identifying this, I don't know about the three of you, but I oftentimes will come across people that I'm working with and I'm thinking of a lady now that I worked extensively with for a little while and there's a quandary, there's a wonder. Like we're talking a lot about this relationship and You know, I'm not sure, I kind of wonder. And you said that we have sneaky ways of figuring things out. I want to suggest that we have openness and we develop safety. It becomes a safe environment to be able to talk about these things, right? And I know you didn't mean anything by that, but as an example, I was working with this lady and her relationship a lot over a lot of sessions. And it was one particular session where Victoria (34:55) Okay. John-Nelson Pope (34:57) sacred. Chris (35:12) She's sharing this instance, that instance, this characteristic, that characteristic, and all the while over the course of 30 sessions, let's just say, like a significant period of time, a year or two even, sometimes you'll hear something and it's kind of like, wait, what? What was that? happened? And this particular one was the very beginning of their relationship. They had developed a long-term connection. This person lived in a whole nother state that she was in local presence here and they met each other the very first time live. He moved to this area and knocked on her door. This is the first time that they laid eyes on each other. The door opens up and she says, wow, you're here. And he comes into the office or to the, to the house and, begins to, to make out with her and, and, you know, not forcibly, but pretty much. very aggressively engaged in full on sexual event. And I heard that and I was like, whoa, that's a lot. That's not normal. That made me very much kind of begin questioning. So I guess I'm just saying like, I'm curious from your perspective, how many times have we on earth this type of emotional abuse over a longer period of time, getting little tidbits of information at a time? until you have like, yeah, I think this might be this, right? Kasie (36:45) Yeah, so emotional use, I would. John-Nelson Pope (36:45) That's a Randy Travis song, digging up bones. Chris (36:48) Okay, we got a lot of feedback on that. Let's go John first. John-Nelson Pope (36:51) Okay, now it reminds me of a Randy Travis song, Diggin' Up Bones. yeah, that's what we do. We are archaeologists to a certain extent. No, no, we are digging up bones. We're basically learning the stories. We're able to put them together. Diggin' Up Bones. Kasie (36:55) Lord. Chris (36:58) What's the Randy Travis song, then we'll go to Casey. That's a song? Okay. I thought you were going for a song. Casey, what you got? Kasie (37:20) Yeah, so this is what I would venture to say in a bold way emotional abuse does not start out as full-blown abuse Okay, emotional abuse can look a lot even what like Chris is talking about It can look like a heavy onset of love bombing, which is another buzzword, where a person pushes in almost aggressively, which is kind of the hooking mechanism or the hook line and sinker to get the person attached. And then things start to happen. So it's not like a person runs out the gate. Chris (37:54) And I just can I just say real quick and it's not always intentional on the abusers part by the way. Kasie (38:00) Correct, initially, right? Yeah, it's not always initially like that way, right? But from the beginning, a lot of the time, the pace is a little faster than probably what we're accustomed to. Now, again, this goes back to the experience that people have had with relationships and what has been normal or abnormal or what has looked right or not right. And it can even be traced back to people who have sustained trauma prior to getting into a relationship with someone that has an abusive patterning. But without that foundational knowledge, you can link up with someone who then turns into someone that becomes emotionally abusive unknowingly. Unknowingly. So it's not like you're out there finding the best of the best abusers that you can find. These people hide in plain sight and they may not even know what they're doing based on their own history and patterning too. So it's just to make yourself aware. Chris (38:59) They don't! John-Nelson Pope (39:01) It's beautiful. Chris (39:02) They don't. often really don't. I just want to drive that point home, Casey, because, you know, we have a tendency talking about this issue of objectifying the abuser. I'm not trying to save and advocate for, know, your abuser. need to deal with this and we need to stop. I'll stop, you know, but at the same time, you know, how many times have we said on the show, hurt people, hurt people? OK, like these people are are injured in so many ways themselves. As matter of fact, I began to understand a term way better than I ever did before when I heard the term narcissistic injury. I remember as a young clinician, thought, wait a minute, narcissistic is injured? I don't buy that, that's crap. That guy's a jerk, that woman's crazy. That's not right. But then I got to thinking about that, and you really stop and think about that. A narcissistic injury means that a narcissistic person is a hurt person hurting somebody. Victoria (39:40) Thank Chris (40:01) because they got hit with something emotionally. Their dad was abusive physically to them and you said something that triggered them and they get off and they kind of go off into this land of crazy land, you know, being, attacking your character. But that, they're not, they're not like knowingly doing this. Like I've worked with people that have narcissistic personality disorder, by the way. We all have narcissism, okay? Narcissistic personality disorder is what we mean by a narcissist, okay? That's way more deeper than our own narcissism. Kasie (40:25) and you can this. Chris (40:31) Nevertheless, like they don't identify this easily. And I've worked with people that are abusers that I actually help them to identify themselves and their own injuries. And that's a really rewarding part of this process too. Kasie (40:44) Yeah, one of my favorite quotes ⁓ to even use in practice, but just in general, because I think it has so much meaning in our day-to-day functioning as people. And it's been attributed to Isabella De Bruno, but a lot of times it shows up as anonymous if you search it. But it says, you never heal what hurt you, you will bleed on people that didn't cut you. John-Nelson Pope (41:05) Mmm. Chris (41:07) Say that again, because I've heard you say that before. Kasie (41:09) If you never heal what hurt you, you will bleed on people that didn't cut you. Chris (41:14) Yeah. It's a powerful state. John-Nelson Pope (41:15) Casey, you are good with the aphorisms. Victoria (41:16) Yep. Chris (41:18) Yeah. Victoria (41:19) Always. Chris (41:22) Let's move on to understand a little bit of what happens neurologically to you. This is damaging stuff. Emotional abuse is not simple. This can rewire your brain. That's what neurological impact means. And we have research about neurology a little bit. You've heard me say on the show we need to learn so much more about neurological process, neurology and all of that. And we do, but we do know some. And we understand that you can absolutely rewire. your brain with anxiety and depression in very significant ways. know, chronic, the chronicity of this thing is something that creates a chronic ⁓ vigilance on your part. Your amygdala, your fight or flight, like you are walking home every day in a certain amount of torment. Like, what am I going to have happen today? Will we have an argument? Sometimes there's no argument, but that persistent threat. That persistent chemical makeup that's in your body. You feel it, literally. It's like that, you might just call it anxiety, but it's cortisol. It's coursing through your body. That is an anger hormone. You walk in uncertain, that tepid feeling like, I'm walking on eggshells. Is my partner going to yell at me for something? John, do it, John. Kasie (42:29) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (42:38) I'm walking on eggshells, I'm walking on eggshells And don't it feel bad? Kasie (42:45) Yeah. Chris (42:46) It feels horrible, John. It feels horrible because your perceptions, your emotion, your evaluation, you know, of the day, you question things you don't need to question. This is a devastating reality is what I'm trying to drive home. John-Nelson Pope (42:48) Yeah. Kasie (42:48) Or- No. Yeah, or the opposite can be quite true and just as damaging with the withdrawal of affection, right? A lot of times people that are in emotionally abusive situations sometimes don't even recognize the different forms that can take on in terms of the withdrawal of affection. know, complete control that's emulated when someone just completely gives you the cold shoulder. Now I'm not saying again, this is not you get the silent treatment because we had a John-Nelson Pope (43:18) That's the cold shoulder. Yeah. Kasie (43:31) big blow up last night and now we're not talking until we come back together and talk. I'm talking about, yeah, this is chronic and sometimes it's chronic at a pattern that's not predictable, right? Like if I have an argument with you last night, it might be predictable in the morning that there's still some residual hard feelings and we may not speak to one another when we wake up or something like that. But if I can't predict this pattern in behavior because it doesn't follow normal cadence, Chris (43:35) chronicity. John-Nelson Pope (43:39) cumulative. Kasie (44:01) what is actually happening in reality, then there's a high likelihood that this is a withdrawal of affection and that abusive. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (44:06) I see that as a dissertation, Casey. So, excellent. Victoria (44:10) Look, now he's trying to get you to go Chris (44:11) Yeah. Victoria (44:12) back to get your PhD. He's moved on, he's moved on from me and now he's trying to get Casey to do it. Yes, I am a lost cause because it's not gonna happen. John-Nelson Pope (44:14) Sorry. Chris (44:14) He does that, Victoria. John-Nelson Pope (44:18) You're a lost cause, Victoria. You're a lost cause, Victoria. Chris (44:20) Ha John-Nelson Pope (44:25) But ⁓ Casey, I agree with that observation. ⁓ And the idea is that this goes and it builds on itself. And part of it is the unpredictable. It's predictable and it's unpredictability. And that's the thing is you never know when it's going to hit you. And so you are always on tenterhooks. You being the victim of this or the recipient of that abuse. And you don't know where you stand. You're taught and guided not to trust your emotions or your feelings or your thoughts or your values. Kasie (44:44) Mm-hmm. Okay. Chris (45:07) Is that what you mean by Tinder hooks? What do you mean more by Tinder hooks? John-Nelson Pope (45:10) Tent or hooks, yes. Yeah, no, you're basically having to, that is where you're literally being hung up by hooks, yeah. And so it's painful and you're still alive. And yet it's, yeah, you're just like a slab of meat. Chris (45:20) Hey. Hey. Why? You've seen those in those horror movies. Like it's a good depiction. I wanted to bring that metaphor out a little, John, because you're literally like hooked on your body and you're hung in the air. And that's metaphorically, honestly, the way that you can feel with this. It's a desperate feeling. Kasie (45:31) NOS. John-Nelson Pope (45:33) Like a slab of meat. Yeah. Kasie (45:43) Yeah, I mean, just think about it like being in a minefield with no real plan on how to navigate. John-Nelson Pope (45:50) You don't know where to step. Kasie (45:51) Yeah, you have no idea where to step next. John-Nelson Pope (45:55) Because you could blow up. Chris (45:56) Okay, here's a point and then I want to move our group. We're going to do the practical questions. I'll explain that in a moment. And then we want to talk about, what do you do a little bit on, you know, why people stay and what healing looks like. Okay, so realize we're talking about this in romantic relationships, but we need to identify that this also could be abusive relationships in parenting too, right? Like your parent child relationships have these dynamics. You can also have massive John-Nelson Pope (46:19) Definitely. Chris (46:26) humiliation experiences or horribly difficult intimidation practices in the workplace. These are not just, you know, marital situations. Kasie (46:33) Absolutely. John-Nelson Pope (46:37) ⁓ Chris I've seen it I've seen it and experienced it in academic in higher because they're part in a church definitely excellent yeah experienced it in the church Chris (46:44) Woah! And how about a church, John? How about a church? And nowadays, in Victoria (46:51) Hmm. Chris (46:55) my newest greatest fascination of topic, because it's so greatly concerning the digital age, right? You know, all of the digital space that we have, there is hugely dangerous things going on. John-Nelson Pope (47:04) My daughter experienced it. My daughter, when she was, I'm sorry, I'm talking over, I apologize. My daughter, when she was 14 years old, was ⁓ confronted ⁓ by a church member, an elder in the church, and she was like 5'11", and she loomed over my little 4'9", Filipina daughter. and was told that that stuff was going to be out on the sidewalk. This is hard for me and ⁓ I couldn't protect her. Yeah, yeah, it can happen in the church. Chris (47:42) Yeah, that's horrible. That's tough. It absolutely does. All right, listen, I'm aware of the time. We're fine, but I'm aware of the time. We're gonna do a segment that is practical questions. This is something that we've been experimenting with, Victoria, especially, right? This is when we're talking to you, the listener. We're asking you a question. At this point, I wanna do it just before we talk about getting well and healing a little bit. This is us as a therapist talking to you through your device of listening, through YouTube. I'm going to start off with practical question that I want to ask you, the listener, we'll call it number one, right? Do you, your relationship, when you're thinking about relating to your partner, do you feel small or smaller than them? Like there's a power differential or confused about things, doubts that overwhelm you. Do you feel shame in situations after maybe intercourse or maybe an argument, or maybe even just offering an opinion? when you're interacting with these persons, if you're feeling those ways, ma'am or sir, those are things to really look at. Those are indicators. Be careful and look at that. ⁓ Number two, who? Who's next? Yep. Kasie (49:05) Oh, I can go. So number two, have you in any relationship that you're currently experiencing started to doubt your own perception or feelings while within that relationship? So what we're talking about here is have you started doubting the way that you feel. Have you felt like you're maybe crazy? Maybe what other people are saying about you is true. Maybe you're an imposter in your own life. Things like that. And if the answer to those questions are yes, then you may want to ask yourself or do your own critical research on things like, gaslighting and what it means to internally trust yourself and really evaluate where this messaging is coming from. This is not a place to where we go if we have a healed sense of self or we're in process of healing our sense of self. This is a place where we are when we feel kind of like a shell of ourselves sometimes. So it's a good question to ask yourself. Have you started doubting your own perceptions or feelings? Chris (50:16) Victoria wants to ask you a personal question as well, number three. Victoria (50:21) I feel voluntold here. But yeah. Okay, so if you have ever, this question kind of revolves around the fact like if you've ever found yourself like being afraid to like express yourself to your partner or to anyone ⁓ because you're afraid of like how they might respond, right? Then it. This is a kind of a topic that revolves around things like intimidation and emotional control and sorry, that's my dog, Carl. Chris (51:03) Victoria! Victoria (51:04) Sorry. So, intimidation and emotional control, and those are two very serious things to be aware of and to explore and to dive deeper into because it can have a significant impact on not only how you are interacting within that relationship, but also potentially how you are interacting with other people who are not in that relationship because it can also lead to doubting of yourself. and expressing your emotions with other people. And so it's definitely something to look into and discuss more about and see if there's an alternative or a better way to approach it. Chris (51:47) Perfect. And John wants to talk to you as well. You did. You're getting the hang of it, girl. Dog notwithstanding. John has a question number four, Victoria (51:48) Was that better? John-Nelson Pope (51:57) If this was happening to someone that I love, would I call it abuse? I'm thinking about this in a way that perhaps you see your sister or your brother that's receiving this, or a parent, and you're in that family, and you're seeing this happen from ⁓ maybe from a stepfather to your mother. or vice versa. The thing is, would you call that abuse? Would you stay quiet? Or would you be able to reach out to the person that is receiving this abuse, this verbal abuse, or this emotional abuse? Would you be able to... become a comrade, to become a colleague, a friend, ⁓ yes a relative, but someone that might be able to do this in a non-judgmental way or a way that would be reactive, that you would present yourself with openness, that you might be able to help your loved one. be able to deal with or to be able to process what's going on and how to perhaps have ways to ⁓ not to change that other person but to be able to say do I need to leave? Do I need to contact somebody? Who do I reach out to for help? And if I can do that ⁓ as a loving relative or friend that I will be able to help that, person get the help that they need and to develop their own sense and reinforce their own sense of integrity and personal integrity. And what if, just one more question. What if the person I love is someone that I'm abusing. verbally and emotionally and If I'm aware of that, how will I change? What do I need to do and who do I need to reach out to? Chris (54:31) Thank you guys, listen, the practical questions is a segment that we wanna give as a gift almost to you, the listener. This is not your therapy, but this is our questions to you on this topic. it's literally, is, it's through Therapistize what we do in sessions with people all the time, like we said on the front end of the show, right? ⁓ What I wanna do now, guys, is answer a little bit of a question that happens. very often for people. And then I want the three of you to do a bit of a round robin on healing and recovery and what people do here. ⁓ Because this question of why people stay is one that people really, really struggle with. And I think honestly when even friends or supportive people of somebody who's the object person of abuse catch a lot of grief from. So I just wanna explain this for a minute and let you guys, the three of you do a little round robin on how to get out, how to heal and all that kind of stuff. But for a moment, like, obviously you might think of fear as being top of the list, but I don't even really think it's the top of the list. I really feel like, you know, the hope that we generate, you know, we start out these relationships a lot of times with all kinds of resiliency that we talk about and we generate hope. You know, this will get better. I can get through this. Sometimes we make very big mistakes of saying, I can help this person. I have committed my life to be with this person and I can help them be better. You know, we have, we have beliefs about, you know, I'm not sure that this really is clearly abusive in any regard. Like I have naivete here. I mean, this is just ups and downs that are a normal part of life. Like there are very real reasons why people stay. It's, it's, it's hard to see things when you're in the middle of it. Like Victoria said earlier, you'd think a therapist would see this. I'm telling you, we don't. In our own personal lives, oftentimes. Because, here's a big dramatic pause, we tend to not be objective when we're looking at our own stuff. And like Victoria said earlier as well, I think, when you're in a therapy session or you're talking to a friend or you're getting out of yourself and you're talking to somebody else and they can say, wait a minute sweetheart, what did you just say happened? I don't know that that sounds right. Now you're not alone. Now you can figure things out, but. John-Nelson Pope (56:34) can't stand outside of this. Chris (56:53) That's more of what the three of them are going to talk about in healing and recovery. John-Nelson Pope (56:55) But do know what, so people, you know, when you're Victoria (56:55) Yeah John-Nelson Pope (56:59) caught up in a family dynamic, excuse me, if you're caught up in a family dynamic and you go back as a therapist, it can be overwhelming. You're not the therapist. You're not the objective person. So it's tough. Chris (57:19) How do we get this guys? How do we heal? Kasie (57:19) Yeah. Sorry, the first thing that I wanted to say is, I'm glad that you touched on these points because there is a neurological phenomenon behind some of this stuff. Just as much as we have fight, flight and freeze, we also have fawn or what I like to call tend and befriend, right? And so this is the concept that... Victoria (57:30) I'm gonna have one. One. One is done. Wait, whoa, hold on. Can you just repeat what you just said, Casey? Chris (57:47) I know where we're going, Victoria. John-Nelson Pope (57:47) Yes, I Kasie (57:47) attended friends. John-Nelson Pope (57:48) know where we're going on this. Yes. Victoria (57:49) Can we, can you just repeat that, that last F word for me? Thank you. Well, Casey and I are on the same wavelength, people. Chris tried to tell me that that wasn't a thing. Kasie (57:53) Thon. Chris (57:55) The new thing, Victoria. I not try tell you that. I would say I didn't hear of it. It's a little bit of a new thought. Kasie (58:01) Okay. Victoria (58:03) Get dead! John-Nelson Pope (58:03) No, that's not what I remember. Kasie (58:06) But the truth is, is that you have a risk and reward receptor in your brain. And when you are in a relationship, not typically like a work related relationship per se, but even then maybe, the realities of the situation sometimes dictate your survival. Victoria (58:09) Stay. Kasie (58:25) Right? Like I'm a mom with four children. If I'm in an abusive relationship, me leaving may put my children at risk. It may put our housing at risk. It may put a lot of other things at risk. So a lot of these survival elements is more about, it's more helpful for me to stay and be kind to the abusive person than it is for me to leave and risk elements of survival that are non-essential. Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (58:56) That happened to Elizabeth Smart, remember when she was kidnapped. so she got along to get along. I mean, she got along so that she could get free, but she did everything she could do to survive. So. Kasie (58:59) Yep, it certainly did. Victoria (58:59) Yes, yes. Kasie (59:10) Yeah. Victoria (59:11) Mm-hmm. Kasie (59:15) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (59:16) It doesn't just have to be physical coercion. It could be the emotional coercion that you might experience in a very dysfunctional, dysregulated relationship. Thank you. Kasie (59:26) Yeah, as we kind of segue into like the healing and recovery around Robin, I would say, and I would be curious to see if you guys agree with this or not. I mean, the first step I think in any healing journey is there has to be recognition that this is actually happening. Victoria (59:45) Yeah, acknowledgement. Yeah. Kasie (59:48) John? Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (59:49) Yes, I agree. Kasie (59:51) So recognizing it. So how do we do that? Well, it's like Chris said earlier, take an inventory, right? Thinking about those critical questions, but also thinking about... what your friends tell you, like if you have friends that you talk to, what they say about your relationship, what your parents or other people that are pertinent in your life say about your relationship. Not what you see on TV because those relationships generally are not real, but... But what you do see in relationships that you would deem to be healthy relationships and draw some categorization of comparison to that. How does your friend's husband talk to your friend? How does your mom talk to your dad? How did your grandparents treat each other and talk to each other? If you know the healthy relationship in your life, I think it's good to do some inventory on yourself in life and look at it. The other part is what he said about the sense of self. Take an inventory of yourself. What are you currently doing or not doing that you used to do? And did you stop doing it for a particular reason? And if the answer is yes, and it's a healthy reason, then great. If the answer is no, and it's because it's been replaced by something that's deemingly feeling unhealthy, then it's worth inspecting or looking at. and then get a therapist like that would be the other part. Chris (1:01:25) Maybe a good point, Casey, at the end. Kasie (1:01:27) Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (1:01:28) Okay, well, and I would add that you would have a community of people that are certainly not perfect. And they would say that they would have their failings, but people that are committed to that journey, and you could see that in a healthy, well-balanced church, synagogue, mosque. somewhere where there would be a place where people's value, they become, they go from, they treat people as vowels, not as objects, or not as something that would be demeaned. So I think that the community building community is important to be involved with that. Kasie (1:02:22) Yeah, the point here too about rebuilding trust in yourself I think is really vital. And this is why, if you've ever been in an abusive situation, whether it's been physical, emotional, verbal, financial, you name it, if you've been in a physically abusive, emotionally abusive, whatever kind of abusive situation, then what you will notice about yourself oftentimes is that you do not feel that you are able to trust your own decision-making capabilities. It's so interesting that even though these things are happening to us, The first person we go in on is not the person that did this to us or contributed to this situation, is we go in on ourselves. And when we go in on ourselves, what we are doing is we are shredding apart the things that make us us. And one of those things is our trust within ourselves to be able to make good decisions going forward. So if nothing else, I would like to encourage you today to inspect yourself and honor you. Victoria (1:03:03) Take your arm out. Kasie (1:03:25) And if you can't honor you, then socratically think about if this was happening to another person, what would I tell them to do? Yeah. John-Nelson Pope (1:03:26) Press it. Victoria (1:03:27) Mmm. John-Nelson Pope (1:03:32) That is the power differential that when the person keeps you off balance. And so the idea is that restore you, restore yourself. And you have to reach out and have an ally in that. You can do it with a therapist or a clergy person or a beloved friend or family member. that is where you have, somewhere the abuse has to stop. Kasie (1:03:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and one practical skill that you can use once you've established connection to a trusted source, right? So once you have that trusted connection to a trusted source and you've identified what's going on and you're starting to heal through that process or talk through it, is you can actually use that trusted source as a... ⁓ ally in a situation even if they're not present and this is what I mean by that. So let's say you get into a situation and something feels off and so you're thinking about like I don't know what to do here this feels kind of off. Simply ask yourself if I'm going to use John as an example if John was sitting beside me what would he say to me right now in this moment? And if you trust John and you know John is not a liar and you really think about what he would really say to you in that moment, the chances are you can make a decision based on that kind of Socratic question or advice that you're taking from a third party that isn't present. Now, I'm not saying go around talking to yourself all day, but it is a good skill to use that kind of fly on the wall mentality. If this person was with me right now, what would they say? And because I trust John and I trust John's John-Nelson Pope (1:05:13) Yeah. Kasie (1:05:17) judgment over the things that I would do, I'm glad to say that I can make a decision and feel confident in that choice because this would be a decision that he would make. John-Nelson Pope (1:05:26) Yeah, thank you. And I feel competent now. I appreciate it. But you know, MJ Vest, ⁓ you brought that up. That's what she was doing in her, ⁓ Catherine's house. Are you familiar with that? Yeah, that's what they do. And that might mean you have to remove yourself from the place of abuse. And that takes a lot of courage. Kasie (1:05:39) Mm-hmm. John-Nelson Pope (1:05:55) and ⁓ hard to do that, but you would go into a healing situation and it would be, and if you go to a place, let's say where you feel like I'm feeling just as uneasy at this place that are supposed to help me as I was in my home where I didn't feel safe, maybe that's not the best place for you. You might still have to find that. where you can have a true ally, that true friend. Chris (1:06:26) in danger of jumping too quickly to the shrink wrap up. Yeah man, there's help, reach out, reach out to the help. All right, we need to move on, which we're going to move on to what we call a segment of the shrink wrap up, where we just give a little bit of a wrap up from our head to yours, from our hearts to yours, and we have a friendly little competition, John loves, to see who, Neil gets to decide who has, I guess, the most thorough or most on point wrap up, but we listen, we got a lot of YouTube folks that have jumped in and out on this live. And we love your comments. Please feel free to comment. We'll embed them into the show, guys. The one comment that we have says, really, really good topic. Not one, but two really, really good topics. I know you're listening out there. You're not alone, okay? You're not alone. You need to hear that and know that. I think this is a show that people are gonna listen to, ⁓ and I hope you hear that. Kasie (1:07:14) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:07:24) Alright, shrink wrap up. Neil, I got a question for you, brother. Come on here. What are you doing here? I looked for the spreadsheet. What'd do? Take it away? You protecting it from me or something? You worried? What happened? Neil (1:07:34) Same spot as it was before. Yeah. Chris (1:07:37) Is it the same place? ⁓ Kasie (1:07:39) I saw it I saw it. Chris (1:07:40) I didn't see it. Huh? You did? All right, well, I couldn't find it. I thought he took it away from me because I tried to do tallies and he didn't want me messing with his thing. All right, the shrink wrap up. We're gonna take a turn and we offer a rending view of how to wrap this up. Who wants to go first? John-Nelson Pope (1:07:43) This is... Yeah. Neil (1:07:50) I thought about it. Victoria (1:08:02) I so that my kids doesn't disrupt later on. And this was my topic, even though I was only here for a part of it. But my shrink wrap up is that the I'm going back to the main reason that I brought this topic up to Chris in the first place is to just bring awareness that just because you don't have bruises and cuts and scrapes and physical abuse. Chris (1:08:06) Fantastic. Victoria (1:08:30) Evidence on you does not mean that you do not experience some type of abuse other than physical in your relationship and that they're all valid and they're all real and they can all be addressed and not to be afraid to seek help if you find yourself in a similar situation even if you do not have broken bones and physical scars on your body from a relationship. Chris (1:08:57) KC, you up? Kasie (1:09:00) Sure, so emotional abuse may not involve physical harm, but it can still cause serious damage. Victoria (1:09:03) Thanks. Kasie (1:09:08) Over time, it changes how you think about yourself. It can hurt your self-esteem and make you feel dependent on the person supplanting the abuse. So my shrink wrap-up will wrap up with a quote by Howard Thurman. And it says, don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive and go and do that. Because what the world's needs is more people who have come alive. The world needs you. There is no one on this planet that is more you-er than you. So, if you are not feeling like you, let this be your message to seek out someone and run it by them to see if you're kind of onto something here in this emotional abuse realm. Thanks. Chris (1:09:54) Thank you, Casey. You are not alone. Okay? This is a horrible process to get trapped in with a chronic nature of harming your soul to the core. It beats you up, not with bruises and bones, we've made that point, but with a critical, critical interference with the very core of who you are. Let's not overuse the term. as we said, just because somebody hurt your feelings. But when this is going on, you've got to find the courage to reach out because it lasts longer and goes deeper the more that you stay in it. And that does not have to be a necessary part of what this emotional abuse topic is for you in your life. So I hope that you've heard some things here today that helps you to identify so that we can take action and not be alone with what it is that is so damaging to a human spirit. Kasie (1:10:33) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Chris (1:10:53) Though you can recover, there is hope. And we're here with you as a society to be with you in that recovery. John, brother. John-Nelson Pope (1:11:08) ⁓ I think that we've looked at it primarily through the eyes of the people that have received ⁓ the horrible, horrible abuse and verbal abuse can crush a soul. But I'm thinking, and I'm appealing to the abuser. that that person, if there's a glimmer of awareness, of self-awareness, step outside yourself, if you're doing this abuse and see what it's doing to others. People that you say you love, and I suppose you do, but you step outside of that and see what damage you're doing to your... your significant other, your spouse, your children, or to your parents. If you're in its reciprocal, that you can't, you don't have to play that game or that do those actions that are so destructive. Seek help, get help, go to a therapist, do some very strong cognitive restructuring and re-examine yourself because if you examine yourself you will change. You will make that. It's not hopeless for you. You don't have to be an abuser. Chris (1:12:44) Neil, we're getting better at this, brother. I don't know what you're gonna do. Neil (1:12:49) gonna have a little dice I'm gonna do like a d20 and just roll a dice just you guys won't see it ⁓ this this was tough and honestly I'm gonna give it to the Pope because I like the fact that I think it's really important to look at the abuser because they need to stop what they're doing so they can stop the cycles that they're leading towards And so I think that's really important to look at for those pieces. So I really liked that dynamic. And I do think those that are getting abused need help and they need to get out of those situations. But until the abuser stops what they're doing, it's just gonna become, they're just gonna lead to another victim and another victim and another victim. So I'm gonna give that one to the Pope because that really kind of came from a different dynamic and I thought it was really good to hear. Chris (1:13:36) Love that, John. You got one, brother. John-Nelson Pope (1:13:37) Thank Thank you. Thank you. Kasie (1:13:38) Fair point. Victoria (1:13:38) Snaps for you. Chris (1:13:40) All right, we gotta get out of here. We ran over a little bit because this is an important topic. I hope that you hear some things that are helpful. We're here with you as we say in the top end. We're here to figure this out together, okay? Stay well, take care. We will see you guys next week. Victoria (1:13:55) Bye.