In Episode 331 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we tackle one of the hardest truths in recovery and wellness: how much control do we really have over our mental health and substance use? Building on Episodes 327 (The Value of Vulnerability), 328 (The Information Age Issues), and 330 (Willpower), this conversation digs into the neuroscience of control – how brain chemistry, stress, and trauma reshape our ability to self-regulate – and why sheer willpower often falls short. Guided by the wisdom of the Serenity Prayer, we explore practical, science-backed ways to strengthen control through structure, skill-building, and support. From habit design and mindfulness to medication-assisted treatment and integrated care, this episode reframes “control” not as a solo effort, but as a shared, sustainable path toward healing and balance.
Tune in to see Control Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What aspects of mental health or substance use do you feel you already have some control over—and which feel completely out of reach?
- When you’ve tried to “tough it out” in mental health or addiction, what tends to happen (relapse, burnout, avoidance)?
- What kind of support, structure, or tools would make the idea of “control” feel safer and more sustainable for you?
Links referenced during the show:
American Psychiatric Association+1
American Psychiatric Association
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #331 Transcription
Chris (00:18) I think Neil gave me the signal. That is a go sign. Welcome to Through Therapist Eyes. This is episode 331. We are going to be kind of playing off the shows that we've done already this month. Kind of a strategy month, guys. ⁓ Today is how do we control mental health and substance abuse, episode 331. So if you're finding us for the first time on this platform, we are on YouTube. Those might be listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and various... Places that you get your podcast. is, ⁓ I am Chris, your founder, guess, host. have Ms. Victoria Pendergrass, the whole group hanging out with us. are you ma'am? Victoria (00:52) Good, how are you? Chris (00:58) I've been looking at your grill all day long, you know I'm exhausted today. ⁓ John doesn't really know. And Mr. John Pope, THE Pope, is hanging out with us today. John Pope (01:07) That's right. Thank you, I'm glad to be here. You know what? It's beautiful. It's 82 degrees right now and it's gonna get down to 64 for a low. Chris (01:09) How are you down there in Bradenton, Florida? ⁓ you finally get to join the living of us here in the north for fall, for actual fall, huh? John Pope (01:27) Yes, we're always a month behind you guys and Chris (01:30) or are you just gonna walk out at midnight just to breathe the fresh, cool fall air? John Pope (01:35) Yes, yeah, yeah. Listen to the ⁓ egrets and into the cranes and so. Chris (01:43) Victoria, I think he's gonna be in bed. I think he's lying. John Pope (01:47) Oh yeah, I'm gonna be like my parents and I'm gonna go to bed at 9 o'clock, 8 o'clock. Chris (01:52) All right, so this is where you get insights from a panel of therapists in your home or private time in your car knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. Victoria likes to remind me when I miss that one. Please know they've got a book out that's pretty cool, I think, through a therapist's eyes, two of them, one on self, one on marriage, check them out, through a therapist's eyes. Look, we try to entertain you, we try to give myths and stereotypes blown up and disseminate mental health and substance abuse information. Your job is to please help us get the word out. We're getting a little bit of traction on YouTube. We get some nice comments on the shorts that we provide, the shows that we have need to bump up the subscribers. So please, if you're hearing this show, just pop over to YouTube, do us a favor and subscribe. That is our ask. And John, how many stars are they supposed to give us brother? John Pope (02:41) ⁓ please, if you feel so moved, if the spirit moves, you give us five stars. And also a nice comment would help. And that way we'll be able to rock it to the top of Apple Podcast. And yeah. ⁓ Chris (02:58) That's so true. He says it. It's so true. Contact it through a therapist size is the way to contact us. We do YouTube lives, you know, about 6 15, 6 30 today is Thursday. So we do that, try to do that every week. Got the month in review. I'm kind of looking forward to that. We got Kyle coming back for the month in reviews. Listen, this is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together. So the three questions that we have this week is what aspects of mental health or substance use? Do you feel you already have some control over and which feel completely out of reach? Right? That's a wordy one, but really, if you think about it, we want these questions to ponder in your brain when you're listening. You know, what do you really feel in control of and what's not right? Two, boy, my voice squeaked there. Number two, I feel like it, John. I feel like it today. More on that in a second. All right. When you've tried to tough it out in mental health or addiction. John Pope (03:47) going through puberty. Chris (03:56) What tends to happen? Relapse, burnout, avoidance question. And then what kind of supports or structure or tools would make the idea of control feel safer and more sustainable for you? So I want to highlight a couple of things before we really get going today. Listen, listen to episode 327. We talked about vulnerability. I told you this show builds on some of these things. Kind of a tips or a mental health strategy kind of concept, I guess, this month is what I. what I fell into for us. then episode 330 we did about willpower and episode 328. ⁓ boy, 328, we spent some time talking about the information age. And I'll tell you what, you're going to hear me maybe talk about that more on the show. It's developing interest that I have honestly about all of humanity and all of what we are dealing with in ⁓ so many ways that are dramatically changing. humanity and usually in ways that are not pleasurable and it isn't just the United States thing. It's literally around the world. ⁓ that show episode 328, I think Neil and I did that mostly talking Neil, if I remember correctly, or we just spent a month in review and did that a lot. So check that out too. Those are some, we've done some really cool shows today. Listen, part of what we do. I think on the show that gives us a little bit of uniqueness is like through a therapist's eyes, right? Like what our experience really is as a therapist. And I'm going to, I'm going to be genuine right here right now. Victoria knows I commented on the opening, ⁓ Victoria, I'm exhausted today, you know? What do we do when we're exhausted and have to do therapy all day? You know? Victoria (05:36) Mm-hmm. You know what I did today? I think you can guess. I took a nap. Yeah. It was either do a nap or catch up on some notes. So I settled and did both. I did a few notes and then I took a nap. Chris (05:47) What did you do today? Same thing I did? Yes. ⁓ good for you! I didn't get the opportunity. That's awesome. Yeah, I didn't get that opportunity. Victoria (06:08) And then I also rearranged my entire office this morning. John Pope (06:09) That's a wonderful compromise. Victoria (06:13) So thanks to the help of TikTok. Chris (06:19) He took dark. Yeah, which by the way, Victoria, keep an eye out. She does our posts and stuff on a very social media platforms and stuff. Victoria (06:23) Thank John Pope (06:28) So she's the one that's sharing her information with the Chinese, right? Yes. Victoria (06:30) With the what? Yeah, sure. Chris (06:33) Indeed. And I think that you've stopped highlighting Grogu, if I'm correct. Have you kind of stopped that? Victoria (06:36) Yeah, I need to catch up. Yeah, I need to catch up. Well, he was in the same place for like a month. Yeah, well, you know, he kind of went through a lot. Right now he's in hiding. Chris (06:45) He was stuck. I think Grogu had some emotional challenges, John. John Pope (06:50) Yeah, where is he? Chris (06:53) Well, actually I can move my camera I think. He's he's over there. John Pope (06:55) Is he behind you? Victoria (06:59) He's been hiding. John Pope (07:01) okay. Chris (07:02) Yeah, is, Victoria. He's kind of hiding, isn't he? Yeah. Victoria (07:03) Yes. Okay. John Pope (07:09) He's probably heard a lot of trauma in that. Chris (07:12) boy, I've had some cases lately and it's funny. mean, we listen, I guess the point is here that I was saying, you know, through a therapist's eyes, like we really do have to take care of ourselves. Like, please know, like we practice what we preach. I, you know, I believe me, I'm, I'm, I'm honestly thinking about watching the stealer game tomorrow, just recording it and what, cause I need sleep y'all. John, what are you, what are you, can you, can you guys say anything about that as just a little bit of an insight from a therapist's perspective? No. Yeah. Victoria (07:19) We tried to at least. John Pope (07:37) You mean like self-care? Yeah. Well, I have to be reminded of it. And I'm in a program right now with the VA for pain management. And are you taking your 10-minute walks? They'll ask. And you know what? I put on my mindfulness app. I put on my headphones and I walked to my mailbox and back. I did supposed to do this twice a day. it helped me. It helped clear the cobwebs. And, you know, I was aware of the wind on my skin and on my brow and the sun on my arms. 82 degrees. Brilliant. Yeah. So that sort of thing. And so that's self care. didn't take a nap, but I did do that self care. And it was good for me. Chris (08:13) Hmm. Right. You know, it's, funny. Absolutely. I have done that between sessions and sometimes I have people waiting like a five minutes or whatever, but I just need to go outside and look at the sun for a minute. You know, I, didn't do that today. Honestly, I did not do a good job of taking care of myself today because I'm tired and I was busy. Victoria (08:47) You know what I want? I want heard a therapist John Pope (08:50) here. Victoria (08:52) on TikTok. Yeah. Say that she would rather be five minutes late to an appointment and go poop than have to think about it the entire hour of the session. Would that like she, you know, was about to go in and like. John Pope (09:17) That sounds like my old pastoral counselor. I won't say his last name, but that's what he said. ⁓ Victoria (09:17) I don't... about like preaching or whatever. John Pope (09:28) No, no. He was a pastoral counselor. so he was laid back. So I agree with you. Victoria (09:29) ⁓ gotcha. Yeah. Look. but yeah, I mean, I think Chris (09:39) Did he talk about going number two, Victoria! ⁓ Victoria (09:42) Hahaha! John Pope (09:42) Yeah, that's Dave would do that. He'd get his pipe out and he had these Chukka boots and he would be tamping in the tobacco and he'd just talk about going pooping, you know, but he didn't use poop. He used the S word and this was back in 77, 78, you know, so. Chris (09:59) ⁓ gosh. I feel like I need to pull this off track and get away from the poop talk. We have to mark this explicit. Thank you, Victoria. Victoria (10:03) No, but I mean, no, will say seriously, coping is like by John Pope (10:04) Bye. Victoria (10:07) all my clients know that I probably like relentlessly talk about coping skills and self care and like things like that. so I mean, this is what it is. and it's needed. John Pope (10:26) Yeah. Chris (10:27) Yeah, I got you. I got you. So as we get rolling here, I want to highlight something that I often quote in my work with people. I'm sure you guys maybe do too. The Serenity Prayer. We've talked about it on the show. It doesn't have to be a religious element if religion is not your thing, but ⁓ the words still are poignant for mental health and it is, God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change. The courage to change the things that I can. and the wisdom to know the difference. And I just feel like we humans screw that up royally constantly. Is that fair? John Pope (11:05) I think so. We always want to justify ourselves. We don't want to, you know, again, it's our humanity and it's our ability, it's our issues with control. And it's a fool's errand to think that ultimately we have control in our lives. Chris (11:28) Well, you know, it's funny, John, because I think we're, we're, we're half seas on this, you know, half of us. And I think it really kind of aligns with like the abandonment insecurity stance we talk about with the FT and the engulfment insecurity stance with the FT like abandonment people, our style, Victoria, you and I, think we struggle to be quiet and sit and, you know, to have that serenity to accept the things we cannot control. John, think the engulfment stance struggles with. the courage to change the things that we can. And so that's why I think this serenity prayer is all over this show talking about that real rich element of control. John Pope (11:59) Yeah. You're right. Right. Chris (12:10) Cause I would differ, John, I'd push back. There are a lot of things we can control. You know? John Pope (12:16) Yeah, I was talking about ultimate control, like dying. But yeah, but we can control our attitudes, we can control our innocence is that our sense of helplessness and hopelessness, I think we can, our behavior, I think we have full agency with that or potential agency for that. Chris (12:21) Well, there's a lot we can't control, ⁓ Victoria (12:26) Hmm Chris (12:34) or behavior. We can actually control our element of trust, our perceptions, right? There's a lot of... John Pope (12:45) Yeah. Yes. Yes. you can actually overcome, yeah, even a childhood of abuse, can eventually be able to have some control in that area and those immediate overwhelming feelings of abandonment. Chris (13:04) That's why I think that third line, the wisdom to know the difference so you don't find yourself not doing the things that you can do to control things and not banging your head trying to control things you can't. That wisdom to know the difference is the key. Like I said, I think that goes all throughout our show today. John Pope (13:24) Exactly. Chris (13:26) So let's get going with what do we do? How do we control mental health? How do we control substance abuse? We're going to kind of intermingle the two a little bit today because they are different, but the same ⁓ reminder to therapists listening. I do have a bend. do have a ⁓ a bite, but don't really upset people. But I feel like there's a big divide in this field where you work with mental health or you work with substance abuse issues and there shall the two be together and man. Victoria (13:53) alive. Chris (13:55) John, you know they're all together. John Pope (13:57) Both and. It's always a both and. Chris (13:59) Yeah, yeah. And so if you don't have that knowledge, go to a conference, get that exposure. Hit a two, three day big CEU catch for therapists. We got to get our continuing education units and spend some time getting geared up for what you see in your office all the time, whether you know it or not. How you doing with that, Victoria? I'm going to play it out. Victoria (14:18) Mm-hmm. Well, and I was gonna even say, like, even when you work with kids, you still do it. Like, because it's not just, like... Chris (14:34) absolutely, because if you're working with a kid that comes from a family dynamic of substance abuse, it is all over that kid. Victoria (14:37) Yeah, 100%. then plus, you also have to deal with the parents depending on their parental figures or who's bringing them. So yeah, you're either directly working with the parent who is either recovering or potentially still using, or you're working with a kid who has a parent who is still using or in recovery or of some sort. Yeah, I think I'm doing better back to your question. So like the more experience I have with it and plus like doing like like you said, you're in continuing education. I haven't done like a full fledged like conference type thing. But I would like to eventually. If I can make it work. Yeah. Chris (15:16) Nice. Yeah, man, get her done. Okay, so let's layer into, you know, there's some science to this stuff and there's like legit mechanisms of control, you know, to use that word control, right? Like brain neurology, ⁓ the dysfunctions that we have, but there's neurobiology of control. Like for instance, with substance use disorder, ⁓ you know, there's repeated use or reward pathways. a lot of people can think about dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, right? You do something to click the dopamine. And for addicted folks, there's biological control issues with that. But when you begin to deal with impulse control, deal with the stress circuits, deal with making self-regulation skills, you can't control your relationship with alcohol when you're an alcoholic, but you definitely can in recovery. deal with that neurobiology and begin to recognize change. Sometimes it takes up to a year. You know, we say the first year of recovery is really like an important time. And then thereafter, you have arguably different neurological, neurobiological realities. John Pope (16:48) Okay, Chris, I'm wondering if that's one reason why, let's say, don't change relationships or make, yeah, because you don't want to have, you want to develop a new homeostasis. You want a new normal. And when you're entering into a new relationship or leaving one, causes things to go in a great turmoil. Chris (16:55) Absolutely. So what John is highlighting is a standard suggestion in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and otherwise, where you don't make any major changes in the first year of recovery. Don't make a major move, don't start a new relationship, big things like that. And yeah, John, think that's precisely because of the neurobiology. Right? And so, but that's decision that you make. Yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead. John Pope (17:37) I agree. Yeah. And you know, lot of your clients or patients, they'll, they'll do just the opposite. You know, it's not in their best interest. They think it's in their best interest. think they got it nailed. Chris (17:48) Of course. yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sober. Victoria (17:52) Or they think they can handle it. Chris (17:56) I'm sober four months. My life is so much better. Yeah. And, ⁓ hold on. You know, we need time. And then you got, you know, some neurobiology and mental health also, right? Like depression, anxiety. The, the neural circuits really are dysregulated, meaning your body gets just anxious, like for no reason. And And, when you begin to implement these skills, you know, your, your brain literally begins to change, you know, with, with trauma, the amygdala is a big part of it. Fight, fight or freeze. I guess Victoria tried to add fawn in there. I don't know. Still don't know about that. ⁓ the stock. Victoria (18:33) No, I mean that- I just mentioned that a client read a John Pope (18:37) Stockholm Syndrome. Victoria (18:39) book that mentioned it. I do not say that I've done any research into it. Chris (18:48) Fair. Thank you for the correction. Good point. But anyway, when trauma is in play, the amygdala, that's the fight or flight system. It just takes over. And that begins to change when you begin to heal. Your system deescalates. Your system re-regulates because you let go of the trauma and the pain and we deal with it. But the hypothalamus, the... Victoria (19:01) Hmm. Chris (19:16) The prefrontal cortex, you know, I mean, there's, really things that are kind of going on in the body with mental health and that either inhibits or we grow the ability neurologically, biologically, neurobiologically to, really exercise control. It's part of the recovery process. And let's not forget my big theory, John, you and I, man, remember when we kind of kicked into the idea of the endocrine system, potentially even being a part of addiction, like, you know, John Pope (19:42) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you were thinking in terms of people being paramedic, ⁓ menopausal in that area in terms of mental health issues and, and, and men, and men too, and men too. And ⁓ it's interesting that a lot of mental illness develops when ⁓ two, two layer levels, ⁓ early adolescence, puberty. Chris (19:59) And men. And men. John Pope (20:17) And then later adolescence. ⁓ Chris (20:19) 1819 is often a manifestation point. You know, I never thought about that, John. You're so right. With kids, anxiety or depression kind of pop. Man, doesn't it though? It really does pop out 11, 10, 13 years old. And then there's another big marker at the end of adolescence that boom, schizophrenia or bipolar or whatever starts to manifest. That is wild. Why is that, brother? John Pope (20:47) enough. Yeah. ⁓ Because we're wonderfully and fearfully and wonderfully made. I don't know. So, but I think it's biology. think it is ⁓ just all those hormones that are pumping in and going online and being all the cells and the neurons of the brain being washed in it. I think that would kind of ⁓ Chris (20:57) Wow! Wow. destabilize them. John Pope (21:19) destabilize somebody. Chris (21:21) Yeah, wow. I honestly that is. Did have you ever was that real in the moment for you too? Did you just put the endocrine system together with that? Yeah, we did that together again, didn't we? What is that is kind of scary, man. Wow, feel free to join the party Victoria. John Pope (21:30) Yeah, yeah, yeah, did. Yeah, we did it again. We're in Patek. I don't know. It's our third time. Yeah. Well, Victoria, you know, that's why she works with ⁓ young, young children so that she doesn't have to deal with the I'm teasing you, Victoria. Victoria (21:52) don't have that many kids on my caseload right now. But I do actually have a good number of teenagers, so I can pray that any much, yeah. John Pope (22:04) I bet you feel energized. Yeah. Chris (22:04) absolutely. It's wild when I've worked with a teenager and then they get a little bit older and one of these things starts coming out and I'm like, whoa, wait a minute. Like what is literally emerging before our eyes? I've had that, you know, many times and parents are like, whoa, yeah, like what's happening? And I'm like, okay, well, we're going to figure it out. But yeah, there's something, there's something kicking up here in your 19 year old. And I might been seeing them for two years, you know, so where are we at? Yeah, we got off. level here in the endocrine system. A little segment on why control alone often fails. We talked a lot just very last episode about willpower. So we won't spend much time on it here, but just understand willpower as being something that, I know, I kind of feel like we made a good case last week for it being largely inadequate. Would you say, Victoria? Victoria (22:56) Mm-hmm, yeah, I would agree. Go listen to it and get the full scale of me jumping in and out of the episode. But John and Chris having great, consistent conversations about willpower. Chris (23:09) you You're doing much better this week. We're getting used to your new surroundings at home. That's awesome. Victoria (23:15) Yeah. But yeah, I mean yeah, I think we did. Chris (23:24) Yeah, mean, because willpower is something that people kind of go to and say, hey, you have control. Use your willpower. You have poor behavior because your willpower sucks. It's kind of like, it's it's so inadequate. Please be very careful about self-judging yourself or negative self-talking yourself to death or bad attitudes. John Pope (23:40) But my clients do that. And you can't just say, stop it. ⁓ Yeah, I do. And so we're like going into planet fitness, no judgment zone. Chris (23:44) Right. Victoria (23:50) You kind of want to, don't you, John? Mm-hmm. Chris (24:03) Yeah. You know where you took me. Don't you? I think it's, I think it's every therapist. It listened. This is okay. So you, you remember new failed, right? Right. That very, very old show. was it like in the sixties or seventies? Right. It was color TV, new heart. Thank you. Thank you. New art. And, there, so you guys have got to Google on YouTube, new hearts type in new heart, N E W H A R T. Is that right, John? And. John Pope (24:13) huh. Yeah. New heart, new heart, yeah. Yeah. Right, that's correct. Chris (24:32) And it's a it's a old show. think it's in color, but this is absolutely perfect. You know where I'm going, John? John Pope (24:36) Yes. Keep going. ⁓ Chris (24:42) man, then both of you need to listen to this. So type in Newhart and type in Newhart just stop it. Okay? Came back. It's utterly classic where this guy Newhart is a comedian and he had a show and he was doing a therapy session, Victoria. John Pope (24:51) ⁓ yes, yes. ⁓ huh, yeah. Chris (25:05) and he had it set up so beautifully, so seriously. So you're here, you have some anxiety, this is what your anxiety is. She goes on and talks for about a minute and he's like, I have something that will fix this in 30 seconds. I have absolutely the perfect answer. And he plays it out and it's about a five to 10 minute skit. And he says, stop it! John Pope (25:24) ⁓ Because he had groups and all that. yeah, and Karlin was my favorite person on New Heart because he was so super neurotic. Victoria (25:24) It was that easy. Chris (25:25) Just stop it! It was awesome the way that we played with mental health and TV shows and stuff back in the seventies and eighties. Going back to some of that is kind of comical to me, but it's a really, really, really funny skit and it fits perfectly right here. New heart, just stop it and you'll see a skit. All right. So with substance use disorder, we look at control alone fails often to be very careful about it. I mean, you have issues of tolerance, have issues of John Pope (25:55) Just stop it, yeah. Chris (26:08) craving, you have issues of withdrawal. These are all real physical realities that people that are non-addicted will really struggle to kind of grapple with and understand. ⁓ And then you got co-occurring mental health issues that erode control. We talked a little bit about this with vulnerability, I think, that episode, what I say, episode 327, right? And it was like, vulnerability is the anecdote to... these pain points, the stress that you have, the daily grind, the issues of control that erode over time. Vulnerability just snaps us back into a different space. So honestly, we could do a mic drop, but we're not going to, but we could do a mic drop on how do you control mental health and substance abuse? How about vulnerability? Victoria (26:36) Ahem. Hmm. Chris (26:57) Right? That's a real poignant reality. If you listen to that show, you'll get kind of more of that. ⁓ John Pope (27:05) I'm wondering if you see such a high level of alcohol use disorder. Of course, substances, not so much in the military because they screen for that. They don't for alcohol unless it impinges on your job. But there's that real sense of people that are always in so much control in their lives. then they, you know, that's how they... They'll do the drinking afterwards. They'll let it down. Let their guard down. then they get the cravings. And they'll try to stop it. And there's this cycle that keeps going on and on with... Chris (27:44) Yeah, and that's for addiction, John, but I think there's elements that are similar, very different, I know, but similar with people that do the negative coping skills, know, buying stuff we can't afford, being promiscuous sexually, ⁓ impulsive anger and fighting, and certainly using alcohol or a little bit of weed or something like that to cope. You know, it's a false element of control, isn't it? Victoria (28:04) Yeah. John Pope (28:06) Yeah. Yeah. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. And it's an external thing. And in doing that with the the weed, oh, it settles me down. And of course, there's there's conflicting evidence on that, I think, in terms of cannabis. I think it might for some people, accident increases anxiety and. Victoria (28:32) Yeah, yeah. yeah. Well, I mean, and honestly, I think it depends on your body type. Like I know I've had clients who it sometimes like go bounces between the two reactions. Like it mellows you out or it like makes you anxious, but are even more anxious or paranoid. And then I have others where it's like, they don't do it because every time they have tried it, it has made them like extremely paranoid or like extremely anxious. And like it almost, Chris (28:35) particularly stativa. Victoria (29:02) like does the opposite of what it to some people. Chris (29:10) Well, not to mention Victoria, you were just saying it and I was just thinking, you you talk openly and genuinely, which we love you for it with ADHD, right? I mean, the reality of it is when you have ADHD, it's so fascinating to think about the biological system there, you know, where medications or substances like operate differently. It is crazy to me to think, and I learned this very recently, that when an ADHD person takes Benadryl, that that wires them. Victoria (29:15) Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Sometimes if I've taken up, Well, and I tell people, when it comes to drinking, if I've taken my medicine, which is like a suppressant, right? To help me focus. And then I drink with my medicine and I drink like, not excessively, but I drink more than like one or two. Like I will literally like. Chris (29:40) I mean, I just, I can't. boy. Victoria (30:07) fall asleep. Like it'll be the middle of the day and I'm like, like I'm gonna go to the car. I'm gonna go to the car and take a cat nap. But then once I take a little nap and I wake up, I'm fine. I like have this new spurt of energy. But Chris (30:15) crash. Victoria (30:24) Yeah, like, but yeah. Chris (30:25) And you still have the alcohol a little bit going on. John Pope (30:28) Anecdotal, anecdotal, anecdotal. This is about my daughter, Bethany, my oldest, my very creative genius daughter, who's a writer and a poet, published writer, novelist. When she was two and a half years old, I took her to the States, just me and Bethany, and her mother gave her Benadryl before she got on the flight. That's because the doctor suggested it. Victoria (30:31) Thank you. John Pope (30:54) And I was wearing my uniform and I had my cross and my lieutenant bars. And ⁓ she ⁓ we got about 30 minutes into the air. We're flying to Guam from the Philippines and she pulls up all her clothes and she runs naked up and down the the aisle and just couldn't get for 10 hours. Could not get her to settle. So. Chris (31:13) haha Victoria (31:21) No. Chris (31:22) That's funny. John Pope (31:24) And I had, so I just dissed with my collar because that's where my cross was. I didn't want anybody to see. Chris (31:33) That's awesome. To finish the little neurobiology kind of segment here, you know, there are things also that increase control. We talked about some of the things you got to be careful about, there's things that you can do with like things that act as cues. So when you start learning about your depression or especially with like anxiety, you figure out like, what is the antecedent? That's a smart word, big word is to say what comes first. John Pope (31:34) Yeah. Chris (32:00) When something is an antecedent, it happens and that tends to trigger the anxiety experience. And so you look at the cues and you protect yourself. You kind of put yourself in a good situation or looking at the environment that you're in. Now, I'm not talking about if you have social phobia, avoid groups. That's a part of the issue with that particular ⁓ issue. But you want to look at your environment and help you to kind of understand when you need to employ something and when you don't. If you're going to a job interview, John Pope (32:28) So you pull out of your toolbox, CBT, your ⁓ cognitive behavioral therapy, you do that on yourself. Chris (32:31) Right. Right. And then you got routines, things that you do that give comfort. You know, we get comfort with what we know and what we know we can feel that we can control. And so if you create routines for yourself, that's a really important thing. Like I'm living alone for the first time in my life now. You know, I have been for a little while and I've just loved my routines, man. Wednesday, you can bank on it. I'm going to go to the row machine. I'm going to go to Gia's. I'm going to have my sushi and probably a glass of wine. And I come home and I watch a show. I mean, that's my routine. That's Wednesday nights, right? It's comforting because I know what to expect. My psychology system kind of can rely upon that and I do that for myself purposely and it just it makes a big difference. Yeah, go ahead, John. You're right. John Pope (33:14) this positive reinforcement. It's positive reinforcement. In other words, you're doing something, the routine is an anchor for you. And that helps you, it's midweek and it helps you to go for the rest of the week. So it's hump day and that sort of thing. But for you, it's a day that you can take a break and it's for self care, basically. Why you would even eat sushi is beyond me, but that's, yeah. Chris (33:37) Right, 100%. Now, why it didn't work yesterday and I woke up at Sorry, I talked at the same time with you. Why it didn't work last night to where I woke up this morning at 5.30, I don't know. Which is a good point. This stuff isn't going to be perfect. Look, this is messy. It's messy. But we're trying to do the things specifically that are helpful to, as you were just eloquently saying, John, to help ourselves. Then we've got pharmacological support. So that's a biological thing, right? We do have mental health medications, which I have said that hundreds of thousands of times. know, medications are a wonderful tool. We need to talk about that on the show a little bit more. I was just talking to Carrie about that last night. A friend of mine, a friend of the show, who's a nurse practitioner prescriber. You know, we have wonderful technology to help us with mental health, mental health medications. Trouble is they're not a solution. They're a tool that helps us to manage stuff. So we need to talk a lot more about that. Yeah, go ahead. Victoria (34:33) Right, yeah. No, I'm just agreeing. I mean, I'm just agreeing. And honestly, I have probably sent more people to in Carrie's direction in the last like two months than I like probably a good handful of people like, yeah. ⁓ Chris (34:58) She's busy, I can tell you. ⁓ John Pope (35:00) Well, let me say this is that that's another reason why you do that is because you know that she's good and she does what she does. She listens to her patients, her clients. so and she responds well. And you can go and see a lot of practitioners, ⁓ providers, and they don't listen. They basically they haven't they they say you Victoria (35:04) ⁓ Yeah. John Pope (35:28) pick off the boxes and so they prescribe, but it may not truly be tailored for that person. So that's what you're doing, Victoria (35:32) Mm-hmm. had a very, yeah. Well, yeah, and I mean, that's why I actually had a client with pretty much basically that story of she came to me, talking one day and she was saying that like her doctor wasn't listening to her and that like she was like, yeah, I don't even know. And so I recommended Carrie and then the next time I spoke with her, she had seen Carrie or like. after she had seen Carrie, I talked to her and she said that Carrie did like the opposite and like listened to her and was like willing to open and like try things and like, you know, figure out the best medication for her. And it was like a really good thing and I was really happy about it. So go Carrie. Chris (36:16) you Go Kerry, Kerry, you gotta give us some shout outs at Thrill Therapist Dives if you ever hear this and listen, girl. Anyway, that's just genuine. We're just being genuine, guys. I just made a joke. Listen, there's also skills-based strategies, behavioral therapies, things that we do with our behavior. John pointed out I try to work out on Wednesday nights a little bit and do different things in those routines that kind of help you rewire habits over time. So there's real biological realities that we can kind of go to manage. And you can imagine if we're just talking about the neurobiological kind of stuff right here, you go and switch over to the other side of the equation. like to say an overview of mental health, a tale of two tapes. And it's kind of like a formulaic thing on the one side, you've got biological, genetic, hygiene, nutrition, all that on the other side. You have social and emotional, primary life events, primary life relationships, the daily stress and the grind, those two things combined together. So you can imagine what can you do to control the behavioral piece in addition to the physical piece. And we have things, you know, that we've hopefully just talked about a little bit. Self-care with the mental health control strategies. I I call it the cornerstone of mental health. I think we were off the mics when you said that, John, to me. Was that true? No, we talked about it on micro. Sleep, nutrition, physical activity, stress regulation, mindfulness, journaling, breathing, grounding. Like there's a lot of things that John Pope (37:48) Do need a new bed? Get one. Can I help you with the- Chris (37:48) Yeah, we pump. Victoria (37:51) huh. Chris (37:54) Say more about that John, I'm gonna follow up and actually give a more in depth of that. What do mean? That's not a joke is it? John Pope (38:00) Yeah, well, I just, I was just thinking that, no, I'm not joking. I'm serious about that because, you know, if you wake up and you're sore from, ⁓ from sleeping and you're, you're not getting the restful sleep that you need. And let's say if you're also having some sort of, let's say you have sleep apnea and you stop breathing and you're going to wake up sore and, and have mind fog and irritable. ⁓ So it's important to have good sleep hygiene. That also means having a comfortable bedding and like mattress or pillows on top of that and that you're cool enough and not too hot. Chris (38:46) Here's my reinforcement of that, John. I was a young, young, young kid, green, not even out of grad school. And I took a Gestalt training ⁓ conference basically. It was like six or seven Saturdays in a row. And we spent like three, four, five hours all day together as a group learning about something called Gestalt therapy. One of the things of several that I took away is the guy made the point. It sounds like a silly point, but Victoria (38:54) Thanks. John Pope (38:55) my god Chris (39:16) I remember him saying that, John, a little bit different, but when you said that about the bed, it took me right back to that guy. I don't even remember his name, but he said, for instance, if you have to go to the bathroom, go to the bathroom. I was like, okay, is that taking care of yourself? But how many times are you in situations where you're like, no, I can't do that. ⁓ no, I'm in the middle of a session. I can't stop that and take care of that. Yeah, you can. Victoria (39:29) Okay. John Pope (39:30) yeah. Victoria (39:41) Yeah, you can. Chris (39:44) And that gives you control over that, right? John Pope (39:49) No, I don't think I've ever had a client get upset that I had to excuse myself. I wait until there's a good point where there's a resting point. But so I don't just get up, but I just say, you know, excuse me for a minute. I've got to use the restroom. And then I make a joke about my age, which you guys have always made jokes about. And so. I had led you in that direction. Yes. Victoria (39:57) Right. Chris (40:07) Absolutely. Victoria (40:11) Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I would totally agree just about all Chris (40:12) You have led us in that direction my friend. Victoria (40:16) that. Like when I talked about coping skills with my clients, you know, I talk about how we have to have like coping skills ready for like different scenarios in life, like depending, you know, on if we're at work or if we're, you know, in social situations or with family or by ourselves or driving, right? You can't like close your eyes and have, take a mindful breath if you're going like, Chris (40:17) He Victoria (40:40) 90 miles an hour around 85. Right. But one of the things I talk about is like, as a therapist, like if I start to have anxiety or if I start to need to cope within a session, then yeah, like I might excuse myself to the bathroom. I might, you know, like drink some water. might, you know, like I can't just get up and walk out. My client will be like, WTF, what is happening here Victoria? ⁓ John Pope (40:47) ⁓ I can visualize that. Chris (40:50) Yeah Victoria (41:10) So yeah, mean, like, you make it work. Chris (41:16) Yeah, so there's a lot of systemic things that we do. I'm not going to spend a lot of time of it. Neil, if you can look something up for us. I want the episode on, what was it? Something titled something like ⁓ Therapeutic Modalities. Remember we did that a few months back or sometime? Yeah, Neil, look that up. See if you can give us the number of that show. Victoria (41:31) Mm. Yeah. Because I, it was, it would be an episode that I wasn't on. I missed that John Pope (41:33) yeah, I remember, yeah. Victoria (41:39) episode. Yeah, it was just, it was just you and John. So I don't know if that helped Neil find it. Chris (41:42) really? okay. He'll be able to Google search it on the website. Because our website has a search. You type in a search and get all the shows on that topic recent and long ago. Even many that were gone from the Apple podcast lists and stuff. look, we got cognitive behavioral therapy. We got DBT. We got ACT. We got different things with mindfulness. Lots of regulation kind of skills. There's so many different modalities that are legit and full, like foundational. ⁓ therapeutic tools John Pope (42:19) They're evidence-based. Yeah, they're evidence-based. so that, you know, they've been proven and tried and over and over again, and you can, and they're able to be adapted very easily to a therapist and to a culture. Chris (42:23) Mm-hmm. Victoria (42:32) think Neil has an answer. Chris (42:35) Right, what is it, Neil? Neil (42:38) Episode 278, therapy modalities explained. Chris (42:40) Two, seven, eight. Victoria (42:40) Wow. John Pope (42:42) my goodness. Victoria (42:43) Wow, crazy. Chris (42:43) Therapy modalities explained, 278. Yeah, yeah, I know, that's been a while, John. ⁓ Right, so there's lots of things, and that's part of what we wanna do in the show, you know? I mean, we really wanna give you practical things that you can engage with and see it through our eyes in the way that we do this every day. ⁓ So what about loss of control? mean... John Pope (42:49) Yeah Chris (43:07) You think of substance abuse issues and obviously it's a primary issue where it's the primary characteristic of the problem or the addiction is loss of control. That is what separates alcohol abuse. Lots of people like to talk about self-medicating and that's not addiction. The crossover is ⁓ a loss of control and that's You know, John, would you say like a biological loss of control? Like that's wild, isn't it? John Pope (43:37) Right. Yes, it is. And it becomes a drive. And that's what makes it so hard to control is that loss of control because it's like almost... ⁓ That becomes the main thing becomes the main... That becomes your driving force for life. And the problem is that everything else be damned. because you've got to feel that craving. And the problem is it can never be filled. ⁓ Chris (44:11) It's... Yeah, it's literally why, like, an addict will steal a TV from their grandma to get a line. I mean, it's wild. John Pope (44:19) Right. These are good people and they're doing this. We're to the ground. Yeah. Chris (44:24) Yeah, yeah, to their grandmother. You know, it's a serious primary issue of a loss of control, which is why we talked about willpower last time. And hopefully, again, we did a good job of like, look, you know, willpower is inadequate often to control these things. ⁓ You know, and then, you know, there's cravings and cravings are a biological thing. You know, it's like, but there are things that we do to control, you know, and other things that John Pope (44:40) Mm-hmm. Chris (44:54) Whatever the show number that was, Neil just talked about, you know, we use, we use, ⁓ motivational interviewing as a strategy to really look at like you have agency over this in the first drink. When you have addiction issues, I love this phrase. It comes directly from Father Martin, many, many eons ago. You're at straight John Chalk Talk. I love that. John Pope (45:12) ⁓ talk talk. We were trained in the Navy with that, you by the way. Chris (45:19) As was I in the DUI class. So you remember Father Martin, he says, first the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink, then the drink takes the man. Remember that? We're down memory lane, aren't we? Right? And it's so true. Listen to that. Let me say that closer because this has everything to do with control, right? First, the man takes a drink. Of course, it could be a woman. And then the drink takes a drink. And then the drink. John Pope (45:27) the ⁓ Chris (45:46) takes the man and what that means is when the man takes a drink or the woman, you have agency there, but then the drink takes a drink and you no longer, if you have addiction, have agency. Let that sink in. And then the drink takes the man, meaning, you know, the progression of addiction, your life gets wrecked. Right? It's wild. Victoria (45:57) Mm-hmm. John Pope (46:09) Yeah, this is, you know, and I think this is where I have a, I have a client currently right now, God bless him, who is still saying he can bargain with this, he can say he has some control and, and he's, he doesn't understand why he's only good for like a week, you know, or, you know, just that he's he can and he says, I don't know why I can't stop and but I'm gonna never but I'm gonna do it anyway. I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna make myself stop. I'm gonna will it and he doesn't and yeah, yeah. Chris (46:54) And you end up using four days later. Yeah, I'm, I'm working with a new person and he's newly identifying addiction in his life and stuff. And he just, you he talks about that. It's like, you know, it's such a struggle in those beginning times, you know, that first 90 days they say, which is why we have 90 meetings in 90 days, you know, ⁓ because that first period of time, that, that element of biological control is difficult to maintain. But then we have people with old term dual diagnosis. You got both the mental health issue and substance abuse. And so we look at how do we integrate these two worlds, which is why, by the way, you need knowledge about substance abuse. You're going to be working in the field, my opinion, unbelievably, you know, because they blend over together when we have both things going on. And you have to, you have to combine these, these elements of control that you do have agency with mental health and substance abuse. Victoria (47:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John Pope (47:36) Definitely. Victoria (47:39) return. John Pope (47:50) This might be a little inside baseball, but there is an antipathy between ⁓ therapists and then also, ⁓ unfortunately, antipathy. other words, there's there's sort of an antagonism between therapists and substance use therapists, ⁓ counselors, substance abuse counselors. And it doesn't have to be there, but it's a false dichotomy. It's false blood. Chris (47:58) What is antipathy? Victoria (48:14) doesn't have to be there, but it's a false psychotomy. It's false blood. John Pope (48:19) You've gotta have them both. It's both and. Victoria (48:19) You've got to have them both. Both and. Chris (48:24) Right. Victoria (48:24) Right. Chris (48:26) I think my computer just clipped out and now I have an echo. I'm sorry. Are we okay, audible? Victoria (48:27) I think my computer just flipped. John Pope (48:32) Yeah. to remember the kind September and follow. Chris (48:38) Alright, sounds like we are. Maybe that was Victoria too, I'm not sure. Okay, sorry about the part, the quick little delay there. ⁓ Okay, so let's move on a little bit. Actually, Victoria clipped out, she'll come back. I wanna play a little bit of a game. See, see like how we do with this. I know. Yeah, ⁓ I got a delay. Victoria, come back to us if you can. This is terrible timing. But, yeah, I know, John. John Pope (48:48) Okay. Okay. ⁓ Dragon Derby on it. I always feel like I'm on the... I'm in the hot seat. Chris (49:12) I'm so sorry about that. It's... It'll be... Victoria (49:16) I'm here I just can't get my AirPods to connect and so I don't want an echo Chris (49:21) Wow, you sound much better also. Well, you sound much better also. Okay, great. ⁓ So we're gonna play, if you guys are willing, I'm sad. You got me giggly, John. John Pope (49:28) Still hear the echo. I'm willing, I'm willing, I'm gang. It's like trying to get me to sing a solo at church, know, that's the... Chris (49:40) Here's what I thought we'd do. have a list of like primary or functional practical suggestions. In fairness, John, it is on the show notes, okay? ⁓ So for a little bit of fun, I want to take like a turn each, each of us, and keep going until we see like who can continue going for the length. I guess we can use some on the list, but. John Pope (50:05) huh. Chris (50:07) You know, John Pope (50:07) Yeah. Chris (50:07) one each until someone has like five second pause on strategies. what are the things that you think are kind of cool strategies that people can kind of utilize? You know, lot of the things that we talk about in therapy and you know, that sort of thing. ⁓ So you game with that, John? All right, Victoria, are you back with us? John Pope (50:24) Yeah, I'm game with that. Victoria (50:28) I, for now. John Pope (50:29) Now this is maybe the air she is Chris (50:30) Looks like she's coming back. You back with us? Victoria (50:33) Can you hear me? Chris (50:33) Yes, so what we're doing is you got to come up with strategies, okay? One after the other. I'll go first. And whoever has a five second pause first drops out. We got a list in front of you a little bit. I gave us some help. But I'll start us off, then we'll go to John, and then we'll get Victoria's head back in the game. So I have a lifesaver strategy where you take a lifesaver, right? And you suck on it. And what it does is it helps you get through an anger spot. And so, you you're not allowed to chew it, but... You know, it helps to deescalate you, right? So, I think I actually talked about it on the show very recently. I had a short that came out on it. that's a practical suggestion. John, you've got many of them throughout sessions that we do. It's a practical suggestion to manage mental health. It helps us to have control. John Pope (51:23) Yeah, if you have, let's say you start having, you find yourself stressing and you're feeling like your stomach is nodding and you're like, you're breathing and you're starting to... is then what you do is you have preset your relaxation techniques and suddenly, and this is what I do, okay, is I suddenly visualize myself on that beach and with the cool breeze and suddenly I relax and my gut lets go and my muscles are intense. Chris (52:09) Love that. You combined a few though. You're combining strategies together, John. You're shorting yourself out. You had like four there. ⁓ Victoria, what do you got, sister? John Pope (52:10) And okay. out Victoria (52:24) initial question. What are we doing? Chris (52:26) Coping strategies, practical suggestions that you give to clients and such. Yeah, for anything. Yeah. Victoria (52:30) For anything? anything like any kind of COVID? Okay. ⁓ I suggest this thing where you create a photo album in your phone and you go through all of your pictures and videos and you add any videos or photos that make you feel joy or make you feel happy when you look at them or watch them and you add them to this album on your phone. And so then whenever you're feeling down or angry or any, really any kind of feeling, you have this photo album that you can bring up and you can look through like specific photos that cause you to like fill to like help you cope. But you can even like, you just have one album if you want to, but you can even do like multiple, like you can have an album for when you're anxious. You can have an album for when you're sad. You can have an album for when you're angry or frustrated and because most of us pretty much always have our phones on us at all times really or within reach then like it's something that it doesn't matter where you are you don't have to have wi-fi to be able to look at it. Chris (53:48) Sweet. Yeah, now we all get the hang of it. I suspect what's going to happen is no one's going to have a full five second delay because we'll run out of time first. So I'll call it soon. But yeah, let's try to do a little rapid pace. Victoria, you made me think of then music list. Same thing. Get yourself some music lists. You know, when you're in a depressed mood, things that pick you up. When you're in a bored mood, things that perk you up. When you're in a sad mood, things that lift you up. Right? So music playlists are another awesome strategy. John, over to you. John Pope (54:17) Quotes that are inspiring are in Scripture as well for me, but also quotes, Tennyson ⁓ from Ulysses or Dylan Thomas, the poet. And just they're quippy, they're small, and they're just snapshots of reality and they kind of put you at ease. And it's for you. Chris (54:39) Love that Victoria. Victoria (54:42) flowing levels. Chris (54:44) Give a sentence or two. What do mean blowing bubbles? John Pope (54:46) What did she say? I'm sorry. Victoria (54:50) Like literally find you some bubbles and blow bubbles like in the middle of your work day. Now obviously safely do that. Yeah, blow bubbles. If you have a pet or an animal, like my dog loves bubbles. I can, we'll like, if I'm at home, I can incorporate her and she loves to jump and like eat the bubbles and pop them. Yeah, blow bubbles, simple. Chris (55:18) Alright, let's try to do like a couple rapid-paced ones, see how we do with this. You made me think of Pet Your Dog! You know? That decreases your heart rate and spend time with your animals. John? John Pope (55:30) ⁓ If you're get stressed, all you have to do is get up, stretch. Chris (55:37) Mmm, movement, Victoria. John Pope (55:39) Blasement. Victoria (55:41) sing a dance. Chris (55:42) Hmm sing a dance is that what you said? Victoria (55:45) No, sing and dance. I mean, or you could sing a dance if you want to. Chris (55:50) Alright I will hit the idea of combining breathing with looking at a picture and you look at the top right corner you breathe in go to the top left top left corner you breathe out bottom left corner breathe in bottom right corner breathe out to the top right corner and you're combining neurological eye movement with deep breathing techniques pretty cool thing John John Pope (56:17) Yeah, I think have a mantra. If it's one word prayer or three words, like the early church fathers, Jesus is Lord. And just repeat that over and over again. Mantra, yeah. Chris (56:29) That is your mantra. Is it mantra or mantra? Victoria (56:34) I say mantra. Chris (56:36) Do you? I always said mantra. Victoria (56:38) I say you have a mantra. John Pope (56:38) Well, I think it's regional dialect differences. So we'll have a match. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (56:42) West Virginia says mantra, mantra. All right, Victoria. Victoria (56:47) ⁓ watch your favorite movie. Chris (56:50) Oh, I love that. Oh, I'll counter. My turn, I think. Watch a sporting event. Of course. John. Victoria (56:57) Yeah. ⁓ John Pope (56:59) Watch cartoons, adult cartoons, not adult, not dirty cartoons, like family. Ren and Stampy. Yeah, ⁓ Yeah, so bad. Chris (57:05) Brandon Stimpey Love, Red and Stimpy. Calvin and Hobbes, yes. Alright, Victoria? John Pope (57:16) I've been home Victoria (57:18) Check it out. Chris (57:20) Okay, who's next? Am I next? I'm gonna take one off of our list. Use if-then plans, right? So if cravings hit, then I call a partner or call a friend or call my sponsor, right? So if-then, set up these if-then statements so you can understand the antecedent that we talked about before. Like what are my triggers? And then be prepared for those triggers. So if this trigger happens, then I will. So you have a plan. ⁓ Who's next, John? Victoria (57:28) you John Pope (57:51) Call somebody, if you're very stressed and you have somebody that's a trusted friend, call a friend. You don't have to spill your guts, or you could, you just call a friend. Say, how you doing? Chris (58:07) don't even have to know why. John Pope (58:09) No, right. That's what I do. I call a guy in Montana. Chris (58:10) Yep, Victoria. absolutely, my buddy Adrian is my boy. Victoria. Victoria (58:19) you can always kind of do like your own check-in, whether that's with yourself or through an app. Chris (58:24) can I steal an answer and say journaling? Is that what you're saying? Victoria (58:29) No. Different. Chris (58:30) I'm going to say journaling. John to you. John Pope (58:36) guys, now I'm starting to run out of things. Chris (58:38) we got a long list because we got to stop this because we don't have time. I told you we're not going to run out. John Pope (58:44) If you need, if you have time, go and take a brisk walk or just go to the gym and work out and... ⁓ Chris (58:53) Okay, Victoria. Victoria (58:57) drink cold water. Chris (58:59) Love that. I'm going to use your thing, Victoria, with the little adult coloring books that's a neurologically soothing activity, Neurologically soothing. John Pope (58:59) Good. Victoria (59:09) But 10 out of 10, 10 out of 10 recommend. Chris (59:13) She loves that, John. She uses it. Can you tell? Yeah, I told you we're going to run out of time. Let me look at my list. What did we have kind of listed out here? starting small, I use that all the time, like particularly like with anxiety, right? This element of I am overwhelmed. I have too much to do. I am worrying. I have monkey brain. My thoughts are racing. Wait a minute. Stop. Slow down. Break things down to small pieces. It makes things way manageable. You do the small. John Pope (59:16) yeah, yeah. Chris (59:41) thing, only one small thing and that gives you a little success. You move on to the next one, only that one, then you do that and you have like one success built off of another and so on. John Pope (59:50) What about Bob? What about Bob baby steps? Chris (59:57) Baby steps indeed, Victoria. Victoria (1:00:02) Eat your favorite food. Chris (1:00:03) ⁓ okay, as long as it's not chocolate, Okay. ⁓ Victoria (1:00:08) especially if it's chocolate. Go eat two of them Hershey Kisses or Hershey Bar or whatever, Godiva, whatever you want. Chris (1:00:17) She told my client today to all the chocolate so I'd stop complaining in the office, John. You believe she did that to me? She did. She did. John Pope (1:00:23) Yeah. Really? No. Victoria (1:00:25) What are you talking about? That's all you're doing! John Pope (1:00:29) Okay, radical self-forgiveness. Chris (1:00:32) Okay, another one. Right. John Pope (1:00:34) Yeah, just be graceful, you know, once you get the... Chris (1:00:37) Write down positive statements to your negative self-thought. John Pope (1:00:42) That's one thing that's worked with one of my clients is that it took her a year to come up with like 10 graces that she had. ⁓ Once she did that, she's gotten up now to 50 and she's done that in about a month, two months. Chris (1:01:00) Okay, I'm gonna end us off. Told you we wouldn't have a problem, John. Nobody lost, I'm telling you. ⁓ That was a fun game, though. The book I wrote, Through a Therapist's Eyes, Re-understanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self, highlighted each chapter as a therapy moment. It's a really cool concept, I think, and it's short, digestible chapters, but I've said this before on the show, did an interesting project to take all of the chapter titles, which are real therapy moments, and I clumped them in. John Pope (1:01:05) Okay. Yes, it was. Chris (1:01:30) to very specific and I ended up with four categories. So it's almost like the whole book synthesized down into these four specific areas that really help you to gain agency, that really help you to gain control, that really help you to become like your best self as the book says, right? The first one was stop and reflect on emotions. We don't tend to do that naturally. The second is value yourself. Like there's strategies that I have written about with therapy moments that highlight like, you know, value yourself. then thirdly, the focus points. What do you focus on the most is what you feel the most. That's literally a chapter title. That's one of the book titles. And then lastly, action points so that you figure out what actions I need to take and then you take it. So ⁓ stop and reflect on emotions, value yourself, focus points and action points is literally the whole book synthesized down. in the real practical things that we do to have agency and control over our feelings and emotions. I'll tell you, people believe they cannot control these things. You know, you feel how you feel, right? You can't control how you feel. Guys, that phrase drives me nuts because that's our whole industry is designed around this whole conversation today for over an hour now is designed to like help us have exactly that control over what we feel. John Pope (1:02:55) Empowerment, empowering. Chris (1:03:00) Alright, so this is the section called the shrink wrap up where we wrap up the show we take a turn kind of highlighting the things that we were thinking about and ⁓ Neil gets to decide which one hits the wind for the week. So I've gone first several times Neil pops up ready to go. Let's go on first this Victoria. Victoria (1:03:18) I'll go first. My wrap up is that don't be afraid to use your coping skills because they can be very helpful. Also, if you need help finding coping skills, there's this thing called the World Wide Web. And you can get on Tried GPT, Google, all kinds of things to search up coping skills and self-care skills because a lot of times those go hand in hand. And yeah, like don't be afraid to take care of yourself. Sometimes we have to be selfish in order to, you know, thrive and keep ourselves alive so that we can help other people. Chris (1:04:03) I like that, thrive so we can keep ourselves alive. That's powerful statement. John Pope (1:04:04) It is Victoria (1:04:10) should go on a t-shirt. John Pope (1:04:15) I kind of think is that one has a, because I touched on acceptance and self-acceptance because I guess that's been a struggle in my life. But one of the is just accept your humanity and that as a human being, you were created for good and to do good and to actually have that. radical love for you, because I use radical again, but it's the radical love for yourself that's not selfish, it is self-care. And that means that you realize that there are a lot of other people, seven and eight billion people that are in the same boat, and many of them want to go with you on your journey. Chris (1:05:07) All right, I think that means it's my turn. So my shrink wrap up is gonna say, look, I have so many times people that come to a therapy experience and they're looking for strategies and they want like a step A, B, C, D for that. And there's a lot of things out there, as Victoria was kind of saying, I actually developed a long-term strategy list of a lot. think we got Neil, I don't know how many is on there at this point, but you know, there's not a lot of places where you can get a full list. Part of what I want to really suggest is you want to have control over the way that you feel. You want to have control over your emotions. In fact, part of what we do is grow and mature even at later stages in our life so that we have more agency and whatnot. Don't do it alone is one of the big factors. You have so many people that love, care, and support you. Hopefully, we've given you some specific practical strategy today in a nice segment that we did there. But I just want... people to really know and understand that it is a lie when you are told or when you believe that you cannot control the way that you feel. Our literal entire ⁓ industry of mental health and substance abuse is designed to help you with that. So reach out, reach out, don't be alone. John Pope (1:06:23) Reach out and touch someone. Chris (1:06:25) Neil, what you got, man? How'd we do? Victoria (1:06:28) Reaching out, touching you, touching me, sweet Caroline. Chris (1:06:32) Alright, they're singing songs, Neil. John Pope (1:06:33) Sweet Caroline, the Johnson Chris (1:06:37) I won't say what I want to say with that three beat thing. Three beat thing from WVU. Victoria (1:06:43) Yeah, no, because we don't associate Sweet Caroline with that. We associate Sweet Caroline with a Carolina Panthers win, which I got to hear this past Sunday and a Sunday before. ⁓ Chris (1:06:52) We we associate a little bit differently dear John Pope (1:06:57) Well, Neil (1:06:58) Okay, I think today's John Pope (1:06:58) he's already in bed, but he likes the Steelers. Chris (1:06:58) What you got, Neil? Neil (1:07:01) wrap up I think goes to Victoria. I think she gets it today. I think it was a good wrap up. I think for after the last few weeks for her to come back strong like she has been, I this is a great win for Victoria. So good job, Victoria. Victoria (1:07:12) Hey, Eli. Chris (1:07:16) That is awesome. Congratulations. I'm glad the show is ending because evidently I need a drink of water. I don't know what just happened. John Pope (1:07:23) You need that lifesaver to put in your mouth so that you can, yeah. Chris (1:07:26) That's Yes, sir. Listen, we're wrapping up. Hopefully we've given you some things to think about with the provocative questions in the beginning. They're just meant to be in your mind as we talk about this topic. we'll be back next week with the month in review. Is that right? The October month in review or I a week early? Do we have another one? John Pope (1:07:47) No, no, we've got one more. We have another Neil (1:07:51) This is a five week Victoria (1:07:52) We got one more. Neil (1:07:52) month, Chris. John Pope (1:07:53) one. We have two months. Chris (1:07:54) ⁓ this is a five week month. I'm glad I figured that out. better figure out what we're going to talk about next week. Awesome. We'll figure out what the topic is going to be, whatever comes out of my head. Victoria (1:08:00) Ha ha ha ha! John Pope (1:08:00) Yeah. See, we needed to keep him in his delusion. Chris (1:08:09) And we'll see you all next week. Stay well. John Pope (1:08:14) All right, take care. Victoria (1:08:14) Okay, bye guys.