In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we take a deep dive into willpower – what it really is, how it works, and why it so often fails us. From the neuroscience of self-control to the myths surrounding “mental strength,” we explore whether willpower is a reliable path to lasting change or just a short-term burst of motivation. You’ll hear how it shows up in mental health, relationships, and addiction recovery – and why overvaluing it can lead to shame, blame, and burnout. Join us as we unpack the science, challenge the stigma, and offer practical tools to build systems, habits, and self-compassion that go far beyond sheer willpower.
Tune in to see Willpower Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- When have I relied on willpower to push through something difficult, and how did it work out?
- Do I believe willpower is a reliable tool for long-term change—or is it more of a short-term strategy?
- How do I respond when my willpower runs out? What supports or systems kick in (or fail to)?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.apa.org/topics/personality/willpower
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #330 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Hello, this is Through A Therapist Eyes. We have made it to October and you're hanging out with a host Chris Gazdick and Mr. John Pope is hanging out with us from Bradenton, Florida. How you doing, man? John Pope (00:12) doing outstanding. We're in the midst of still having hot weather. ⁓ Chris (00:17) ⁓ We have wonderful crisp, cool, clean, ball air. I'm so sorry to rub it in, man, but you know. And we also have Miss Victoria Pendergrass who is intermittently at home with her son in this stage of life, so bear with us with her. How are you doing, ma'am? Victoria (00:31) Yes. I'm doing well, we are potty training. So if you hear my son going, mommy, I want potty. Chris (00:37) Yeah. You will be running to the party I get it I listen this is through a therapist eyes where you get insights and delivery of information about mental health and substance abuse personal time in your car or home knowing this is not the delivery of therapy services in any way you have reached us on episode 330 and we are going to be talking about willpower which I believe is a rather Victoria (00:44) He really fed him out in Hawaii. Take this anew. Chris (01:08) grossly misunderstood concept in the mental health and substance abuse field. John Pope (01:12) I gotta do it, I gotta do it. Lady, lady will power, it's now or never. Give your love to me and I'll show your heart with tenderness endlessly. That's from Jerry Pocket and the Union Gap. That's wow. Jerry. Chris (01:31) Wow, brother, give a little hands on that. That's hysterical where you completely hijacked the intro. Now I have no idea where I am. John Pope (01:45) Okay, I'm sorry. I just had to do it. Chris (01:46) ⁓ You're kidding. That was awesome. John. that was absolutely awesome. Listen, if you're finding us for the first time on this platform, we are on YouTube. we're building up the YouTube deal. we, we deliver hopefully a little bit of entertainment, some musical performance from our in-house musician, Mr. John the Pope anyway. ⁓ but your job is to subscribe to like the things, the get the algorithms going, click thumbs up. John Pope (01:49) You're welcome. Chris (02:13) really helps if you share a particular episode with a friend and give them a comment. That makes it way more likely that they're going to actually listen to the episode and it's something that you think would apply to them. So help us help you and help others. How about that for an expression? So if you're... Yeah. John Pope (02:28) I think that's really good. think, you know, of course we do the five star review if you feel so inclined, we would appreciate that. If you enjoy what we do and the banter, this let us and the knowledge that we might be able to share. We're in a learning process and we just would welcome those five star reviews. Chris (02:49) I gotta keep that for expression in my brain, John. Help us help you help others. I love that. That fits with, hey, this is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. That is our main purpose on this show and our platform. We hope you kind of enjoy the content. Contact at throughtherapistize.com is how you can interact with us on the email. And of course, we love to get your YouTube discussion points and we include them and embed them in the show when we're able to and we just have a lot of fun. John Pope (02:54) Yeah. Chris (03:18) Three questions with willpower episode 331. When have I relied on willpower to push through something difficult and how did it work out? Just think about that while we're talking today. Secondly, do I believe willpower is a reliable tool for long-term change? Interesting, right? I'm going to read that again so much, John. It's interesting. Do I believe willpower is a reliable tool for long-term change or is it more of a short-term strategy? And then thirdly, how do I respond when my willpower runs out? What supports or systems kick in or fail to kick in? So some provocative questions we want you to think about while we talk about this. So John, willpower, man. ⁓ Actually, did Victoria dropped fully? I guess we'll get Victoria back. We'll see how that works out. She's really working out her technical at home stuff, isn't she, man? John Pope (04:13) Yeah. But I think she's at that most wonderful time of life and it will go and it'll be gone so quickly, unfortunately. Yeah. So you just hug your little babies and, ⁓ mommy, I got to go potty and. Chris (04:14) That's I know. It's so true, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, maybe she's maybe she's actively singing the potty song when we was body training my kids we said the you know ⁓ PP in the potty PP in the potty and we'd like walk around the house. We'd have celebration So awesome, right? Those days really do go fast John. There you go super fast So I guess she'll she'll come back on the platform here John Pope (04:51) to jack it up. they do too quickly. Chris (04:59) as she's able. The definition in the science of willpower like, dude, what do you think just broad stroke it with this whole concept that I already said in the intro, I feel is grossly misunderstood. Let's say you. John Pope (05:17) Well, I would agree with you. I think it is misunderstood. I think one of the reasons why people, let's say they have their little slips or stumbles with willpower is because they think of it as something that is just mental control. so it doesn't engage all the person's gifts or the other or being able to recruit other people to help you with maintaining. that self-control or willpower. And so in other words somebody gets really, ⁓ I've got to do it myself. That's the only way to do it. And so we can talk about that a little bit later when we talk about addiction. Chris (06:03) we may talk about that. It's interesting that you say that, right? Because, you know, I don't know, this is a mental health and substance abuse show. Is it fair to say that when, kind of in the field, when we come up with the idea about willpower and, you know, what that is and stuff, like, do you think people think of that mostly in the realm of addiction or is that just us addiction therapists people? Well, okay. Yeah, yeah, that's true. John Pope (06:29) No, no, dieting. ⁓ yeah, and you know, of course, diet has the word die in it. So that's so so you. Well, yeah, I'm saying that you're going to set yourself up for for failure. ⁓ If you. Chris (06:37) awesome Are you trying to say something about dieting there, John? That's something I really want to get to tonight, yeah. John Pope (06:57) Okay. So if we rely on the traditional definition, you gotta understand, Chris, I'm a baby boomer. And, and we were taught from the fifties and the sixties that you had to, you had to go it along alone. You had to develop that, that strength of character. And it was sign of weakness if you didn't succeed. And so you would end up Chris (07:23) Mmm. John Pope (07:27) do into guilt and the shame, because you're invariably going to fail if you try to do it by yourself. Chris (07:35) Well, that's certainly a monster big point and that's going to be in our conversation too, because isolation. I don't know, man. I it's funny. I keep adding to it. Like I've said a thousand times, isolation is enemy number one for depression. Now I'm saying the same thing with that as far as grief and, maybe not just with willpower, but how can we generalize that a little bit more? Isolation is so bad when it comes to goals, goal setting, behavior, willpower, dieting. addiction, right? There's something there. John Pope (08:05) Yeah, I think you're correct, because I think we are evolutionarily ⁓ geared for social interaction. can't just do it alone. We have the oxytocin, the love hormones that happen, that reaffirms and builds bonding. And I think that ⁓ Victoria (08:21) Thank Chris (08:31) Yeah. John Pope (08:33) Sometimes we get it in our heads that we can just do this on our own. Chris (08:41) Yeah. Yeah, Victoria, she is back from her toilet training, I guess. ⁓ We're just talking about the introduction of the idea of willpower. And I want to just get your overview of it. Interestingly, not being a substance abuse counselor, I was just asking John if it's kind of in the substance abuse world mostly, and he kind of quickly said, no. What say you in the general sense of your understanding on willpower? Victoria (08:46) No, I lost connection. John Pope (08:47) I love you rugby shirt. Victoria (09:08) just my flat out understanding of it. Chris (09:09) Nah, you're muted. Victoria (09:13) I'm not muted. Chris (09:16) I will come back to you and he'll help her out. She's a case that needs help. She's muted, I guess. So the definition really is what's she's unmutable in John's world. Yes. The definition here, as we like to do on the show to get a clear grounding on what it is that we're doing, ⁓ self-control, the ability to delay gratification, resist impulses and pursue long-term goals. Like. John Pope (09:23) Again, it's Chris (09:45) John or Victoria, are you able to talk? There's no, you're still muted. There's a lot wrapped up into that, John. Victoria (09:49) Can you hear me? John Pope (09:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris (09:57) Delay gratification, resist impulses and pursue long-term goals. Like there's a lot there. John Pope (10:04) I think it's absolutely beautiful. ⁓ I think that's that in a nutshell. And so ⁓ that's a wonderful definition. I don't know. ⁓ I think it's sufficient. Maybe you could add more to it. ⁓ I mean, you can take it point by point. ⁓ If that's how you like to go about that. I was thinking, ⁓ one of the things that I was thinking about ⁓ that we've taught is the marshmallow test. Are you familiar with that? Victoria (10:37) Why can't I? Why can't you hear me? Yeah, Chris (10:44) I'm very familiar and I know Victoria is as well. Go ahead and tell them what the marshmallow go ahead and Victoria (10:46) mean I'm I'm checked on like I'm checked in on like AirPods and John Pope (10:46) Yeah, I know because she's a kiddo thing. Well, I don't know, maybe she could do it because she probably has ⁓ more of an experience with that. they took a ⁓ scientist, a researcher, psychologist, I believe, but took some children. And this was done, I guess, 50 years ago, maybe. don't know. Victoria (10:58) now. Chris (11:15) ⁓ was a long time ago. It's basically a staple of research in the psychology field. Yeah. Very early on. John Pope (11:16) It was a long time ago. Yeah. Yeah, right. And there were two types of kids and one which was that you could say you could have this treat if you if you delay the gratification, if you delay just getting that treat, ⁓ delay using it or whatever. And I'm not quite sure. Yeah. Chris (11:42) Yeah, can I add to it? Okay. Yeah. What they did is they took these kids and they set them on a table by themselves. I mean, their parents probably were in the room for a moment and they set a marshmallow down on the table and the parents would be there and the researcher gave the direction to the kid very clearly. Look, you have this marshmallow. It is your marshmallow. You can eat the marshmallow, but what we want to ask you to do is to wait before you eat the marshmallow. John Pope (11:49) Yeah. Yeah. for Chris (12:12) And if you wait, then you will get two marshmallows. Right? Right? Does that bring it back for you? And so, so then the researcher and the parents would leave the room, the kids all by themselves, and they're sitting there with a marshmallow right, right in front of them. And they're like, ⁓ I could eat the marshmallow or, my, they said I'll get more marshmallows if I wait. But do you remember what the, ultimately the, the findings were? John Pope (12:17) Yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I don't quite remember that, but I did it. Chris (12:44) I don't remember the statistics and such of it, but you're right to bring this classic psychological research into the conversation because they found that little kids didn't have very good willpower. They would eat the marshmallow. Yeah. John Pope (12:52) But, but, but, I- That's exactly right. I mean, so tell us something new. But there were some kids that were able to do it. And so it could be tied into natural development and neurodevelopment of somebody. So it wasn't a moral thing as much as it was when that person would develop. And so, yeah. Chris (13:03) Well, yeah. Correct. Exactly. And I don't know it further. I wish Victoria had her mics and stuff. She might know, but I'm not sure. I feel like they added elements to that equation and showed ways to increase the level of compliance in waiting, in developing that ability to hold back, to delay that gratification. But I do not remember that correctly. ⁓ John Pope (13:48) So maybe you're right, because maybe that would also argue that is something that people should develop naturally, but at the same time, you could actually engender a better compliance with it or success at an earlier age if you have strategies. Chris (13:50) Yeah. Shoot, at our age, John, if you have strategies. Because part of what we need to realize in this conversation is there is ways, and we're going to talk about these ways, to really increase your ability to use willpower. Victoria, do we got your mic yet, my dear? Are you serious? s- wait, there you go. John Pope (14:33) There she is. She did the Sydney Lockner. Chris (14:37) Say a sentence, my dear, do we got you? John Pope (14:39) Thank you. I heard you. Chris (14:45) I heard a sound, I know, now she's not responding. What are you doing? John Pope (14:50) Maybe she can't see us. Okay. There you are! Victoria (14:50) you Chris (14:53) Victoria, you, what are you doing? Are you, you hearing me? John Pope (14:59) Let's give her a marshmallow. ⁓ Chris (15:01) I tell you, John, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with her. She needs to eat the extra marshmallow. All right, we're going to leave it go. I don't know. She going to figure it out. I guess Neil's behind the scenes, hopefully trying to help the girl. All right, so there's a lot of science behind this willpower thing, right? Seeing is an infinite resource is the way we kind of look at this. But John, you know as well as I do that it isn't an infinite resource. It is honestly actually very limited. ⁓ Victoria (15:09) you Chris (15:30) There's a guy, I didn't know this guy. Have you ever heard of the ego depletion model? John Pope (15:36) Years ago, again, 30, you know, what is it? 30 years ago? Chris (15:37) Years ago? Okay. I got very little about this. There's a guy evidently... ⁓ What's his name? ⁓ Roy Bonmister. ⁓ In the 1990s, he did some work with this and he really suggested in research that your ability to delay gratification... John Pope (15:44) Starts with a B, ⁓ what is this name? ⁓ bum-master. Bum-master, yeah. Chris (16:03) your ability to exercise self-control, to resist impulses and such, actually has a degradation effect. So it isn't infinite, it gets depleted. You get, as you muse this more and more and more, you get worn out. Okay, so it isn't just like, hey, you got willpower, exercise your self-control endlessly. Like that's not really a reality. John Pope (16:31) Okay, could it also be like compassion fatigue? And that is just that if you're going it alone, you will deplete that. again, yeah. And again, I think it's, yeah, I think naturally, I think if you're fed by ⁓ others, now, I'm kind of a big community kind of guy. And if you're fed by others, you're going to have more success with your willpower or even Chris (16:35) Mm-hmm. think so. Yeah, I think so. John Pope (17:00) when it's very stressful. Chris (17:02) Yeah, I mean, you do get worn out with this. I mean, let's think about for a minute what's happening with willpower. You have two different parts of your brain. John, I know this, so hopefully the listening public is gonna hear something new here, right? Your frontal cortex, we know, has abstract reasoning, thinking, pulling fact A, fact B, fact D, fact D into your thinking process and you reason through what it is, the behavior that I want to do, but your... your emotion center. I'm doing my hand brain on the YouTube. Your motion center is my thumb right here in the stem of your brain comes up. That's your fight or flight, your emotion system, the hypothalamus, all of that stuff, all your good oxytocin, John. Yeah, the amygdala. Good old friend, Amiggy. Hey, there she is. So there's these two different pieces of the brain that engage, right? And you're literally on animal impulse. John Pope (17:39) Yeah. Victoria (17:50) If you can hear, can you hear me? Okay. John Pope (17:52) Yeah. Chris (18:01) in the amygdala. There's not a lot of impulse control there. Fight, fight. You want treats, you want the marshmallow. If you put anybody on that marshmallow table and told anybody, look, don't eat the marshmallow, you'll get two, right? I don't think 57-year-olds are going to be very good at that if you're only operating out of your pleasure sensor, your dopamine receptors, your, the biological. John Pope (18:02) huh. Fight or fly? Fri- Freeze. Yeah. Chris (18:30) It's the neurological process in the frontal cortex that helps us think, wait a minute. If I have this thousand pieces of Halloween candy that Victoria has in the office, I'm going to have a problem. That's a real reality and a shot across the bow Victoria, right? Victoria (18:45) Yeah. Okay, well and actually today I it's funny that you bring this up ⁓ Is that I learned that someone adds an extra thing to its flight fight freeze or fawn John Pope (19:05) freeze. Chris (19:07) I don't know about fun. Yeah? What's that mean? John Pope (19:09) I don't know that phone. Victoria (19:10) Yeah. So, okay, obviously, flight and fight or like what you've already covered. Freeze is where like you freeze, right? ⁓ And you don't, yeah, you don't move at all. And then fawn is like almost like fawning, like wanting people's approval, like trying to fix it like that way. John Pope (19:20) Daring headlights. Chris (19:33) Where did this come from? What are we talking about here? Victoria (19:33) I had a client tell me that she heard about it in the book, Why Are You Mad? Or Are You Mad At Me? Or something like that, I can't remember the name of the book. And that they mention it in there. So I don't know how, I mean, I'm saying this, I don't know how research, but... Chris (19:54) Yeah, I gotta call bullshit on this a little bit. John Pope (20:00) the Chris (20:01) shenanigans sorry i used a bad word for all of us Victoria (20:04) Hey, and it wasn't me. ⁓ Chris (20:07) Yeah, I gotta call shenanigans on this a little bit. I'm not sure about that. Victoria (20:08) ⁓ I mean, I mean, I'm also talking about it with literally no context, like this little part of our session today that it was like mentioned. ⁓ Chris (20:22) Yeah. Honestly, Victoria, what that sounds like to me is somebody that created a cool meme, added something cool to something that they read, something that they know. I'm not sure there's a whole lot of reliable research around the idea that your system anonymically is going to be in a fawn state. I you hit trauma when you hit a shock, when you hit a big bump, you're going to fight or flight or freeze, but fawning it relates more to interrelations. It goes more towards insecurities. goes more towards, no, I don't. Victoria (20:40) Maybe, yeah. I mean, I don't know. Chris (20:51) I don't know that that's on anomic process that's almost instinctual. Neil (20:55) Well, according to the research on the idea of FON, Victoria (20:58) If you can hear me, I keep losing you. I can't, your sound keeps going in and out. Chris (21:00) wow, Alright, well, Neil's jumping in and that never happens, so what's up, Neil? Neil (21:06) So the sign, so FON is a response after an unaccessful fight, flight or freeze attempt. It's usually primarily seen in abusive families and it's over agreement, trying to be overly helpful, basically primary concern making someone else's happy. So it's not your initial fight, flight or freeze. It is the response afterwards by overcompensating. Victoria (21:07) Absolutely. It's usually primarily seen in abusive families and it's over agreement trying to be overly helpful. John Pope (21:32) So it's survival. Neil (21:35) So there is a fourth and that's correct. It's just the one WebMD, you know. John Pope (21:40) Okay, has this been well studied or is this, ⁓ is there a lot of, yeah. Chris (21:44) I'm willing to bet no. I'm willing to bet no. Victoria (21:49) heard is that Neil just backed up what I was saying. Chris (21:55) with WebMD. I don't know, guys, we'll figure that out. Honestly, Victoria, that is completely new to me. Let's go on with our conversation, though, yeah. Yeah, something. I can see where there would be a reaction among a plethora of other kind of reactions to the trauma scene that you're in, but I want to move on for the purpose of our conversation. John Pope (22:01) I want to do a study on it. That's... Yeah. Neil (22:06) I mean. The book, the Are You Mad At Me book was written August 5th, 2025. So it's a new book. And this is really, really new. So it's something to think about. Like you said, not much studies. Could be. John Pope (22:22) I'm wondering if that's based on the Stockholm syndrome. You know, the we identify with your your captors because otherwise you're going to get killed. So. Chris (22:34) Yeah, absolutely. And Neil's saying that this is brand new too. So it could be something you and I, John, and well, all three of us, to be honest with you. we'll, check into that. That's something new and we're figuring this out together, but getting back to this depletion thing that Roy Baumister was talking about, you know, was, was interesting because we like to think of emotions as the muscle that we're using. When you, when you, when you overuse the idea of just fatiguing yourself by you using willpower alone, you know, as you say, on a diet or in the middle of trying to change behavior, you're going to get wore out. And this is why I suspect diets just don't tend to last very much. They don't, they don't tend to be very long lasting. John Pope (23:20) Well, who's going help you with ⁓ your cravings at 12 a.m. when you're eating a restricted diet of or calories of a thousand calories on a crash diet? You know, it's like who's going to support you? Chris (23:37) You better have an answer for that because if you don't have that, I think people are going to the fridge, John. John Pope (23:44) Mm-hmm, that's right. Chris (23:45) Are they gonna hit the pantry? Something. John Pope (23:49) Yeah, I've done that. that was the way you did it. You go on crash diets. And the thing is, it's really not good for you. Obviously, it's not good for your health. So. Victoria (23:58) Let him get some food. Chris (23:59) Yeah. And so some other studies kind of show ⁓ some other things about, you know, the dopamine in the reward based system. You know, you want to get your jacks up. You want to get, you know, your feel goods going. You want to kind of get into, you know, dopamine, good old dopamine and that marshmallow is going to give you dopamine. So, you know, we're trying to kind of manage this type of thing. so, ⁓ you know, really willpower is real. It's fragile. It's best supported. we're transitioning here. It's best supported, highlight alert, it's best supported by habits, getting into habits, new habits, new behavior. And then the environment that you're in is super important. And then the motivation that you have rather than just sheer effort, and that comes through other people. These are really important. John Pope (25:02) So I'm wondering, how long does it take to establish a good habit as opposed to a bad habit? Chris (25:11) Yeah, I think that's been pretty studied. mean, what do they say? Seven days to create a new habit or seven weeks or seven months or I don't know. John Pope (25:16) I think it's six weeks, 30 days. Victoria (25:18) It's 30 days. Chris (25:20) 30 days. Victoria (25:21) I thought it was like 30 days to create a habit, 90 days to make it a lifestyle. Chris (25:27) yes, those are the expressions, you're on point. Yeah, that's right. You know, and later on we'll switch a little bit to addiction and they say that... What's that, John? John Pope (25:28) ⁓ Yeah, I just... That's a lifetime. ⁓ That's a lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (25:40) Yeah, it is. But you know, later on, we'll switch to addiction and, you know, really kind of talk about 90 meetings in 90 days. And, you know, there's something about 90 days. John Pope (25:47) Well, you know, you think about it. Yeah, you get the chip. And if you do the 12 steps, but here's so. I guess my. My question then is what how does temptation play in factor in that? I know we've kind of moved a little bit on that, but. ⁓ with willpower. What happens? Chris (26:22) Well, what do you think, guys? mean, my view is, you know, that's the marshmallow all over again. You know, the temptation is the, you know, we'll call it the devil's work, man. I mean, it's tempting and you get pulled off track, man. I mean, if the temptation is good enough, if the temptation is strong enough, you get pulled off track. And guys, we understand this in a very powerful way in our therapy offices. We have people that have had affairs with people that they work with and they don't know what happened. John Pope (26:33) Sound condition ⁓ eyes. Chris (26:53) They don't even realize what, you know, what were you looking for? They have no answers. What were you after? They have no answers. Why did this happen? It's like temptations with a ⁓ depleted system. You're going to go for the dopamine. John Pope (27:06) I've worked in offices ⁓ in academia where people would talk about this is my work husband or my work wife. And I think that's very dangerous, you know? ⁓ yeah. Because you use that ⁓ commitment term of husband or wife or spouse or whatever, and you just find yourself drawn into that temptation. Victoria (27:15) You Chris (27:19) ⁓ yeah! Victoria (27:21) yeah, for sure. John Pope (27:36) And so, yeah, you very easily fall into that and you say, what the heck happened? think they've done some studies with they being ⁓ communities like the Alban Institute, which works with churches in Lillie Foundation of why ministers, pastors, priests end up having affairs with their congregants, somebody in their congregation or the Chris (27:36) Easy. John Pope (28:03) or the joke, which would be the choir master, choir mistress, you know, yeah. And it's because you work so intimately with them. And it just you find yourself. And one of the keys is the minister says when they're caught and revealed, I don't know how this happened. Chris (28:08) boy. John Pope (28:27) You know, I do. Victoria (28:27) Yeah, isn't that like the same thing as, you know, like a boss having an affair with their secretary or secretary, like their assistant, because they're like literally lit, like, you know, they stay late at work together and work on projects and they do this and they do that and like they spend so much time together, they spend more time with them than they do their own spouses. John Pope (28:51) I think it's more than just the power differential that I think feminism talks about. Well, this person has power in doing that. It's more than that. It's the relationship that goes anyway. I mean, it can be power, but yeah. Chris (28:51) Absolutely. Victoria (28:58) Right. Yeah. Well, and also like when, yeah, and when you don't have like boundaries and things set in place that you stick to, then yeah, those things are more likely to happen. Chris (29:19) Well, I think to your point, John, I side with that a little bit too. I mean, I think when you get into the power dynamic, hey, good reference to last week's show, informal and formal power. Didn't we do that recently? Yeah, mean, there's... Codgicating in there, I love that word too. Listen, that can get more into abusive kind of circumstances and more dangerous in the way of being taken advantage of and doing harm. John Pope (29:31) Well, I was, it was complicated in my brain. Chris (29:46) You know, we're kind of talking about this more in the realm of day to day life. you know, your experience with your behavior and how willpower has to deal with that. And in that sense, I don't, I don't know that it has much to do with power at all. You know, that's, it's almost a different domain, but, ⁓ there are real limitations. I feel like we're being real negative on, on willpower. Well, I to bounce back and cite some more limitations, but willpower is not bad, right? I mean, John Pope (29:54) I agree. No, no, there's nothing wrong with discipline. I think discipline might be a better word, you know, but. Victoria (30:17) you Chris (30:18) right? Yeah, well probably so. Then willpower? Self-control, discipline. I mean, those are, what do we say, synonyms, right? Like, those are the same thing. Can you be disciplined? Well, that's great. Can you be in control of your decisions? Exercise control over what you can control? Yes. Can you have willpower? Like, I think we get down on the word. don't know why. John Pope (30:25) Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. the Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm wondering if it's a reaction to the kind of willpower that I was exposed to in my youth and growing. Well, it was connected a lot of time with moral failure or success. And somehow you were morally superior if you displayed a great deal of willpower and you were able to sustain it over a long period of time. Chris (30:57) What do mean? John Pope (31:16) And so you would be some sort of a failure if ⁓ you didn't have that ⁓ same level of self-discipline or willpower. Do you follow what I'm saying, Chris? Chris (31:33) Yeah, think i think so i mean. Is this there's a lot of it's a wonderful thing to be able to manage ourselves but there's a lot of risks in relying only on that which is what i can i want to highlight like. You when we're talking about trying to create new behavior. You know what did you say victoria thirty days that what's the expression and i just don't have it my head. Victoria (31:53) 30 days to make it a habit, 90 days to make it a lifestyle. Chris (31:57) Right? mean, there's a lot of barriers in that whole process. know, 15 days in, how you doing? You know, 27 days in, how you hitting it? know, 97 days, have you gotten through to the other side where it's a lifestyle now? You know, there's a lot of barriers to that. ⁓ But I wanted to take a minute and celebrate. Like, you know, there's strengths to this. You know, it helps with emotion regulation. It helps with having resiliency and resisting avoidance. Victoria (32:07) You're gonna get me! Chris (32:26) You have to be very purposeful about the things that you're doing to be well emotionally. And if you're not purposeful, they don't just happen. Victoria (32:34) yeah. John Pope (32:35) It's intentional, so it's always intentional. Is that what I'm hearing? Chris (32:39) Yeah, absolutely go with that. Like highlight that because I think that's important. John Pope (32:43) Yeah, ⁓ think that's it's mindfulness, but it also has a forward goal, a long lasting goal, but you are present in the moment and you reinforce this, you you take it one step at a time and say, okay, and you display that self-discipline and then you do it. ⁓ you do it again, and then you do it again. And you be gracious to yourself if you, let's say, some people when they're dieting ⁓ will just kind of just go and collapse and ⁓ they won't get back up because they'll say, well, what's the use? And so there has to be a part of having grace with with doing willpower and displaying that, that self-discipline. It also is not to have the negative cognitions or thoughts that would say, I'm a failure or something like that. And you say, but you reframe it, I'm using all this jargon. And that is you put it in perspective and then you're saying, okay, a lot of other people have also have had a slip or they've had a struggle with this. And so you get a sense, even if you're alone doing this, you get a sense of strength and because you have a bunch of other people that you have imagined have gone through the same thing that you have. Am I making sense? ⁓ Victoria (34:16) Thank you. Thank Chris (34:30) Wow, you're making a lot of sense. Victoria, if he pulls a lot of that stuff out of his self again for the shrink wrap up, we're doomed. We got no shot. John Pope (34:38) I'm not, not, man, Victoria (34:38) Yeah. John Pope (34:39) I'm not gonna do it again. Chris (34:41) We got no shot John, well said. Victoria (34:41) Well, I think I already have a disadvantage because I've been in and out of this entire thing. Chris (34:48) Yes, we're aware. How you doing? You checking in? Okay, Victoria. ⁓ John Pope (34:48) Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Victoria (34:53) Yeah, I'm good. As long as y'all can still hear me, I can still hear you, and we're good to go. John Pope (34:57) What are you cutting there? just, ⁓ I don't have, I'm in impulse control. Digiting all of them. Victoria (35:01) I'm fidgeting, I'm fidgeting. Chris (35:04) ADHD is a real thing. John Pope (35:07) Yeah. Chris (35:09) I really say that because she says that very publicly. Listen, there are things like, you know, as you were saying, John, talking there, I was really thinking about, do you know what really, really clips into what you were talking about is when, when we deal with what we deal with in our therapy rooms, right? Mental health diagnosing. I mean, think, think about that, man. You know, when you, when you're talking about trying to have willpower and then you got things like depression. Victoria (35:12) Yes, yes. John Pope (35:30) huh. Chris (35:37) or anxiety, clinical anxiety, clinical depression, that has real symptoms. We just mentioned ADHD. You know, we talk about people with very poor impulse control. Victoria, I hope you can speak to this insofar as with ADHD. That's not poor impulse control. It's like you have so much going on on a clinical level with ADHD or depression and anxiety and stuff. does that mean you have low impulse control? That's the expression, low willpower. Victoria (36:00) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris (36:06) Or does that mean it's strained so much? John Pope (36:07) Again, value judgments on that. Victoria (36:07) No. Yeah, it means that I have my brain works way faster than my mouth and the rest of my body. And so I have 10,000, it's like I have 10,000 tabs open in my brain at one time. John Pope (36:27) You have a, you have a, a Maserati engine with a Volkswagen stick shift. Transmission. Chris (36:27) Yeah, like that's a lot. Victoria (36:35) Yeah, think someone, yeah anyways, sorry. Chris (36:35) So what I'm... Go ahead, Victoria. Victoria (36:39) No, I was just gonna say, my friends have always said that like if I was a dog, I'd be like a Jack Russell terrier mix with something. I can't remember what the other thing is. Because that would just be like going all the time. ⁓ No, but I'm sure I could try. John Pope (36:51) Do you jump upside down? Can you do back flips? Yeah. Chris (36:58) I mean seriously, like this is the thing, like, and I hate that there's a result of this for people. And the result of this struggle with willpower because of clinical conditions is self-blame and shame. Right? I mean that's the result of this when you're trying to do something good that you want to have for yourself and you quote unquote interpret air quotes Victoria (37:14) Mm, yeah. Chris (37:27) listening to this on the audio version i want you to know i'm being air quote this the failure. Is not failure that's an air quote of your behavior change because you're so depleted. ⁓ John Pope (37:41) ⁓ So your serotonin level is also depleted. so you're going to be more susceptible to anxiety and depression, and it's a cycle. Chris (37:45) Literally biologically also. It's a cycle and they work battling down to the pit. If you get some self-control and some positive self-regard and good positive talk built up, that increases your willpower and then the serotonin drops and then some stressful life reality drops. Or then if ADHD, some kid wants your attention and you can't focus and it's like, your willpower drops and your shame and blame and everything just John Pope (37:58) Yeah. Chris (38:22) builds on each other. a horrible trap. Victoria (38:25) Well, and that's thing is like a lot of times and I'm maybe have mentioned it here before like a lot of times people talk about like that there's a dark side to ADHD and like things like that and I feel like that kind of like plays a part in it of like, yeah, I might seem like happy-go-lucky all the time, but there's also a lot other dark things that go on up here. Chris (38:47) Right. I mean, and that just destroys your willpower, destroys your staying power. Victoria (38:52) Yeah, well, yeah, it makes me second guess everything. It makes me self doubt. It makes me do, you know, not go with my gut instinct. ⁓ Chris (39:03) And then you know what we do? We slap this horrible label on it and call it poor impulse control. It's not really accurate, is it? John Pope (39:08) Mm-hmm. Victoria (39:11) Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's more like a side effect. Chris (39:16) Well, it's overwhelmed. It's what we're just talking about. What's his name was talking about that earlier, the doctor. It's the depletion. The depletion of your willpower happens because of real clinical issues. All we got to move on because I don't want to miss a little bit of talk about addiction with this. ⁓ The therapeutic angle really, again, is building routines. We want systems of people helping us. That creates accountability. It builds you up with positivity. Victoria (39:20) Yeah. Chris (39:46) environment around you. We don't want to just be grabbing our tail and holding on for dear life and just trying to muscle our way through it. Victoria (39:56) Yeah, like I have, I feel like this kind of relates is like I have a lot of clients, you know, I like to do a check out at the end of every session. Like how are we doing leaving the session? And sometimes I have people even like today I had some people they like, wait, not that part. I do, what do you want to work on this week? That's what I mean. And like a lot of people say, like, I just want to survive. Like I want to work on surviving this week. And I'm like, Chris (40:27) Mmm, hmm hmm. Victoria (40:28) Like, you know, here and there, that's fine. You know, if we're just having like a crazy week and we just need to get through this week. But like if you're telling me like three, four weeks in a row. Yeah, but like, no, you're fine. But like if you're if that's your thing that you're working on with me for like three, four weeks in a row, like we have other things that we need to discuss and talk about. Yeah. ⁓ John Pope (40:37) Are your cars totaled and your kid has to go to the hospital? I'm sorry, talk over you. apologize. Chris (40:53) Maybe transition two. Victoria (40:57) So feel like, does that kind of, I feel like that kind of builds into the picture. I don't know. Maybe that was a read. Chris (41:01) Yeah, I think so. mean, if we look at this in relationships, willpower, the idea of trying to improve something, you know, there's a little bit of a myth that, you know what, if I just work harder at this, if I just try more, it'll be better. And it's like these myths that we have about your self-control and it really kind of creates all kinds of trouble. ⁓ Victoria (41:20) Thank Chris (41:30) we can equate the term, you know, love. If you're not trying enough and you're not exercising more willpower, John, then you clearly don't love me enough. Victoria (41:32) Six, six. John Pope (41:38) listen, I have clients that have just cry about this. And I have one client on one extreme where the spouse says, you've got to change. the person really doesn't say, need to change ⁓ for the one that's making the complaint. And so you just don't try hard enough. Chris (41:46) Yeah. John Pope (42:07) And then I have another one who is just the opposite and is actually really judge, judgy on the, on the other ⁓ partner. And what a trap. What a trap because it's, yeah, it's conflicted and tangled and meshed is another word. And then they talk past each other and, know, Chris (42:33) Those initial therapy sessions of couples is amazing, isn't it, John? Until you get some of these changes put into place, it's just like... And then the frustration just grows, you know? John Pope (42:37) Yeah. Victoria (42:37) you John Pope (42:41) you just kind of change the, yeah, because they have a homeostasis. It's just a very bad homeostasis. And so they have to change the dynamic of the relationship. So, which is hard. It's like, go ahead. No, go ahead. Chris (42:56) You know, I have a concept of the, I'm sorry. I have a concept of the book, you know, Through Therapist's Eyes, know, Re-Understanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self. That's the book one on self. And I whittled it all down. I'm sure the audience is long-term listeners, probably sick of hearing it, how I came to it. But, you know, I whittled them all down and put them into four categories, I found out. And one of them was action points, right? ⁓ Focus points, action points, value yourself, stop, reflect on emotions, those are all four. But action points are things that we want to actively do, points of action in a structured, managed way. Because if we just have bursts of willpower from time to time, how effective do you think we're going to be at choosing the action that we want to do and having any level of consistency with that action? It's not going to be very strong. The depletion kicks in again. John Pope (43:54) think it's very important to have compassion too, because I was thinking, what if a client is ⁓ bipolar and ⁓ is aware of their bipolarness? There's someone with bipolar. And so they have these tremendous urges that just go, know, impulses. Chris (43:58) That's a good point. Victoria (44:20) Okay. Chris (44:21) I don't think that you can really manage bipolar impulses, John. I mean, that is another example of a clinical condition that makes real, real, real impact. Probably more than any, if not addiction. Would you, that's an interesting puzzle, isn't it? Victoria (44:29) Okay. John Pope (44:35) Right. Victoria (44:36) Thank John Pope (44:37) Yeah, I agree. I agree. Chris (44:39) Which is worse, the impulse control problems with addiction or the impulse control problems with bipolar? I really am curious. What do both of you think? Victoria (44:52) I know. I feel like it depends on the day. It depends on the day. John Pope (44:53) Wow. My experience. Go ahead. Chris (44:57) Wow, we're doing 50-50, huh? John Pope (45:03) I've got a question. ⁓ Because there's so often substance abuse that the self-medicating that goes along with people that are bipolar, ⁓ that ⁓ with bipolar, and it just makes it ⁓ even worse than that. ⁓ I worked with somebody a few years ago that was, she had ⁓ Victoria (45:15) Mm-hmm. John Pope (45:33) schizophrenia. And she was on medication, she was on a chemical straight jacket, and wicked smart. And so she was, you talk about willpower, she was able to manage because any other reason she should have been able not not to have any control whatsoever in her life and be institutionalized. And she became a Chris (45:35) Mmm. John Pope (46:02) a writer and ⁓ an artist, ⁓ illustrator, children's book. But she said, I hear voices still even with my medication. I don't like what it's done to my body, the medication, but I take it in order to ⁓ maintain. And I feel like there's a, and she used the term straight jacket. However, she said, it's what really gets me at Chris (46:07) Well, yeah. John Pope (46:31) 2 a.m. in the morning when I hear the voices telling me to go out and hurt somebody. And she and now this is important and I'm not patting myself on the back and I probably didn't do something that that would be done now. But I said you can call me anytime. If you start hearing those voices and we can talk about it. So I looked at it like a ⁓ you know, having a sponsor. Chris (46:35) Yeah Alright, you can do that. Victoria (46:53) you John Pope (47:01) And yeah, what do you think? None. My role was a pastor. Chris (47:01) Interesting. Did you do that in a therapist role or what was your role? Okay, yeah, because the anytime thing creates some challenge. Victoria (47:10) Mmm. Yeah, that's why I was a little confused there at first, but you know. John Pope (47:16) No, no, no, I didn't do it as a therapist, I did it as pastor before I was alive. Chris (47:20) And it's interesting the different roles, right? Like in how that sort of, you know, plays out like... You would or would not? Yeah. Yeah. John Pope (47:24) I would do it now as a therapist. I wouldn't do it Would not. But I would do, I'm a little more flexible than I think a lot of therapists ⁓ because of my dual roles. Victoria (47:33) Yeah. Chris (47:34) Yeah. Victoria (47:38) Yeah, Chris thinks I'm weird because I give out my direct work cell number to my clients, but I always make sure to tell them like, I am not a crisis line. If you call me at two o'clock in the morning, I will not pick up. Chris (47:50) Hmm John Pope (47:51) Good night. Chris (47:55) dear god, yeah. John Pope (47:55) I had not felt that when I was a pastor, I never felt it was never abused by my congregants. ⁓ Victoria (48:04) Yeah, I've only had one time. I've only had to say it because I've only had one time where someone tried to basically have a therapy session through text and I had to shut it down. So yeah. John Pope (48:09) huh. ⁓ huh. ⁓ well, you you get misspellings with me if I did that by texting. I couldn't do that. Victoria (48:23) me. Chris (48:23) I like a little insulation. I'm not gonna lie. I definitely like a little insulation John Pope (48:26) I don't blame you man, think your boundaries are very important. Chris (48:30) Yeah, we'll call it boundaries. I'll call it insulation. ⁓ So let's go on because of time. I want to get to this transition a little bit because I mentioned which is worse, right? Which one challenges our impulse control? Which one challenges our willpower? Addiction or bipolar? Notice, by the way, you two, I did not answer my own question, did I? Victoria (48:31) Yeah, I mean, I didn't. Yeah, I mean, I sat down. No you didn't. John Pope (48:53) Yeah, what's your answer? Chris (48:54) No, I can't give it. I'll give you the 50-50 like Victoria did. But if you look at primarily the issue of addiction, we said what differentiates between bipolar self-medicating, like you just mentioned, John, and addiction primarily is that element of a loss of control that goes directly to the heart of willpower. And this is why in addiction circles, which by the way is probably why I haven't Victoria (49:00) one. Wait. Chris (49:21) you a little bit of a bias in my own brain about Victoria (49:23) ⁓ Chris (49:24) like, it comes from the substance abuse field. Cause I guess that's where I started, but I've heard over and over and over again, John, right? You, you, you're not going to get sober using willpower that does not help you to, you know, build out a level of control. it. Victoria (49:36) you John Pope (49:42) Yeah, the best thing that ever happened to me was going through the Navy's program for for addictions and they would they would have the in this case, in this case, I was a chaplain and ⁓ did not have the same, you know, I had to do some real soul searching and say, you know, had an unhealthy relationship with food. But ⁓ Victoria (49:53) One, two, three, John Pope (50:11) But in terms of some of the struggles that my ⁓ sailors and Marines were having, it was different, but it really helped me get into the shoes of someone that was struggling with addictions, real active addictions. And I would suggest that people that are not dealing with their with addictions, and if they want to treat people with addictions would go through a similar type of program. Chris (50:17) Mm. That. John Pope (50:40) that would enable them to know what it's, have that empathy and that connection. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (50:44) Yeah, that'd be something. Victoria (50:47) Well, that's what we had to I've mentioned it before that in grad school like in our addictions class we had to go Sit now we only had to sit through one AA meeting but we were required to like and Encourage to not to go to more than one if we could so we could get more of a feel of like John Pope (51:06) Yeah. Victoria (51:06) you know, what it's actually like for someone. And I and my roommate just happened to go on, I think it was hot dog Friday. So we also got some free hot dogs at the AA meeting. yeah, I mean, I think it definitely gives like perspective and especially as a therapist, then like you can actually understand a little bit better what your clients are going through. John Pope (51:16) HAHAHA Chris (51:19) Great. John Pope (51:35) Sure. Chris (51:35) Yeah. Here, here, first of all, that we have a, addictions class in a college program. Like fantastic. I'm loving that grad school. Well, yeah, whatever college. mean. Victoria (51:41) Grad school, grad school. John Pope (51:44) Yeah, it's required for ⁓ counselor and students. Victoria (51:48) Yeah, for LCMHC students, it's required. We have to take it in order to graduate. Chris (51:54) curious how long ago that came in but we're gonna move on. Yeah, is really a big-time dopamine reward system overall. Y'all saw what I wrote in the show notes, right? I mean, dopamine overpowers this battle between your frontal cortex and your reasoning regulation of your behavior and then your behavioral impulse is like completely in addiction. Like it's something that a non-addicted person just doesn't have the ability to recognize, John, right? Like we've talked about it on the show before, the power of that overt, that hijacking of your thought process. It just doesn't matter. That's why you see this big all caps in the show notes, right? Blow this up. What do we want to blow up? This myth. Either one of you. John Pope (52:30) ⁓ huh, right. Chris (52:51) You don't see it. Victoria (52:53) if we had willpower, they'd stop. yeah, it's the same thing. It's the same thing with anything. Like, well, if you really wanted to lose weight, you'd get in the gym and you'd work harder. Fun. that slapped somebody up the head. Uh-oh, I don't think that one. yeah, no, no, we don't slap people. Chris (52:56) Yeah. Yeah. I how crazy is this thought? A lot of blaming that goes around. John Pope (53:09) So ⁓ it's just the opposite of motivational interviewing, isn't it? Chris (53:14) Say again, John? Yeah. John Pope (53:15) It's just the opposite of motivational interviewing, you know. Chris (53:22) What do mean, John? Victoria (53:23) I'm sorry. John Pope (53:24) Well, so if you just had enough ⁓ willpower, you would stop, whereas encouraging a person to make changes and saying that you're teaming up with that person to, let's say, as a therapist or the health care provider or the addiction specialist, you would be able to encourage them and give them the resources and support and help them see their options. and I guess give them choices. And that's very important and it's encouraging so that person gets agency. Chris (54:05) Where do they get motivation from though? John Pope (54:12) Yeah. Victoria (54:13) roles. Chris (54:16) I mean, I'm not changing anything, John, but I'm just kind of popping that in there to really make the point. You know, I've said before in our addiction shows, what works the best for most is 12 step programs. Why? What helps them with motivation? John Pope (54:27) yeah, definitely. Victoria (54:30) goals which is part of the 12-set program. John Pope (54:31) Well, no, you have to begin at the beginning. You have to say that you're powerless over this and that you just ⁓ admit your humanity, your common humanity with others. And this is something that you cannot. ⁓ do by yourself. have to... You have to turn it over. and get that. And of course, in 12 Steps, it's the higher power, whether that be a ⁓ deity or something greater than yourself. ⁓ Chris (55:12) So what we're saying John is in all of this, like think about this, this isn't going into a diet although it helps there too. This isn't changing the behavior of a child who's behaving poorly. That all this helps there with too. This isn't any kind of behavior modification that you would want to do in willpower. All this helps that's there too. What I'm referring to is again what helps the most, what works best for most is this idea of giving up control and then allowing other people to support you. Because unlike diet and weight and other behavior, addiction is like again, the next level. When I say it takes over a person's life, it literally kind of takes over the whole person. John Pope (55:54) You could be the most moral human being in the world and you develop an addiction to drugs, alcohol, whatever you are, that you will lie and cheat and steal. Chris (56:09) And here's why, because the ego depletion, the willpower depletion is so great because every single day after addiction progresses and really multiple times through every single day as you get into multiple stages of addiction, it gets worse and worse. You're fighting this. How do you fight that all day every day, Victoria? You're not an addictions grounded person, but Victoria (56:36) It's exhausting. Chris (56:38) Can you fight this every day all day? It's... it's... it's... Victoria (56:41) Nope. I wouldn't be able to. And I don't even have an addiction that I'm aware of. Chris (56:47) Ray, that's what I'm saying. It's so brutal. so, John, I was just thinking about that as you were talking. What really helps us to have something that gets so depleted with addiction? it's giving up control. It's using the group. It's using other people, having action points, some of the things we're talking about. Victoria (56:51) Yeah. John Pope (57:06) Have you ever lost a loved one, a family member to alcoholism? I have. have. they... Yeah, it is... Victoria (57:07) Yep. Chris (57:10) ⁓ yeah? ⁓ yeah? terrible. As a matter of fact, you just hit me John with that. I don't want to, you know, take over what you were saying there, but I literally just found out today. ⁓ If you're listening out there, man, my heart's out to you. ⁓ She can identify herself because I just had a mom that lost a stepson to addiction just found out today. You know, another one gets hit, man. And I have full suspicion that I don't know for a fact, but it might've been fentanyl. John, it sucks, man. It's horrible. John Pope (57:49) Yeah, That's a new fact. We also had somebody lose their son as well. I had a client that that did this with fentanyl as well. It was just heartbreaking. But there's there's a there's that sense that having seen it right up close, you could see that that person in my own family and it's an extended family. It's not in my immediate family or siblings. But it was that person would absolutely sell ⁓ them, sell everything or steal in order to get that fix and just, and they live for that moment. Victoria (58:29) but it was that person would absolutely. John Pope (58:47) And so all the goals are gone. It's the march. They cannot eat that marshmallow. They cannot refrain from eating that marshmallow. They gotta eat it now. Chris (58:47) It's in the moment. It's even worse with addiction. know? So, so taxing in a little bit here, what are we, what are we trying to get at, you know, when we're looking at willpower? Let's, let's break it down from mental health and then addiction. You know, I hope we've made the point loud and clear about developing habits. What is the expression again, Victoria? John Pope (59:02) Yeah, even worse. Victoria (59:23) 30 days to make it a habit and 90 days to make it a lifestyle. Chris (59:27) Right, whether that's a science fact or not, it's an expression that we have all heard, you know, and we're after really building that up and gradually with goals. know, Victoria, you mentioned goals before. We didn't talk a lot about that, but you want to develop routines, habits. John Pope (59:46) I a cool question, Chris. How many days was your son in boot camp in Great Lakes? Chris (59:54) ⁓ that is a really good question. think I know where you're going with this. ⁓ I... I want to say that was a two or three month... deal. I'm pretty sure Bootcamp's three months, isn't it? Which is... what you're going for, I think, right? John Pope (59:58) Hello. Yeah, yeah, my boot camp was ⁓ almost three months. Chris (1:00:18) Say why you ask, say why you ask or what you're thinking. John Pope (1:00:21) Well, I that because there are connections. Obviously, Victoria was talking about the 90 day life change. Well, what got me into doing ⁓ exercise was kind of the discipline where I had to get up at 430 in the morning, 0 dark 30 and run ⁓ and march and ⁓ make sure that my rack was was absolutely pristine and go through a gauntlet and developed a military discipline. And I was a chaplain, you know? Chris (1:01:03) Yeah, well you were just a soldier, I mean, at that time, or a seaman. I mean, the thing is, like, look, like, there's something about 90 days. There's a level there, a threshold that we want to get to. You see it in AA, 90 meetings in 90 days. You see it in the military, John, I thought that's where you were going for, like, basically three months, right? It is science, okay? We have somehow stumbled upon a detailed knowledge, and the military is, listen, John Pope (1:01:06) Yeah, yeah. That's where I was going for. Yeah, you did. Chris (1:01:31) A lot of our psychological knowledge comes from the military. Okay. If you haven't figured it out or realized that like they study this crap because they want to maximize their effectiveness on the battlefield. So you can really rely on what the military is doing. And if you get into the depths of why they're doing it, it is sound science by far. So you get to that threshold, but you don't get to that threshold, John, by just a little bit of pop of willpower for a day. Yeah, that just doesn't do it. So we want habits. John Pope (1:02:01) Yeah, and you do it step by step. oh, insight, insight. Each day, you do something, you have a success and you build on that success each day. And you might have, you might fall off. You might have, you might not be able to complete that march, that six mile run. But the next day, you're going to be able to do that. And you're going to be able to Chris (1:02:07) What happened? John Pope (1:02:31) and each time you develop a new skill. And so the same with self-discipline and control. And resiliency. And also you develop more competence or agency. And so you're able to say, OK, I can look back and I can see, you know, I got a challenge before me. I don't know if I can do it. But Chris (1:02:38) increased resiliency. John Pope (1:02:58) I've been successful thus far because I've been doing this and I've built on the prior successes and even failures. Chris (1:03:09) Mindfulness and pausing before impulses. I have a lifesaver technique that I kind of wanted to share. I don't have time. If you want to hear about how we use lifesavers to get through the impulse, particularly with anger and anger management, I've got a cool tool. We, a lot of us therapists have cool tools there. It's basically has some science behind suck on a lifesaver before you take an action because that by the time you're done with the lifesaver, you've got some real biological things that are different. But anyway, then we want to use rest and passion with self and be good to yourself in the self-talk. And then for addiction, we've talked a lot about recognizing the limits that willpower is going to do. It is really limited in the addictions world. instead, the 12-step recovery programs, building a plan and having accountability with a community and then dealing with the relapse, because that's not a part of willpower, it's a part of the real struggle. So throw those out here. ⁓ Closing thoughts, comments and stuff. And we need to get to the shrink wrap up. But John, you've got me terrified this week, man. John Pope (1:04:17) I I don't remember what I said, so just go ahead and take it, okay? Take what I said, okay? Chris (1:04:24) Oh, we're going to use that. Neil, did you, do you remember what he said back then? rewind it all. No comments, closing comments. What, what are you John or Victoria thinking to wrap us up before we get to the ramp wrap up? John Pope (1:04:28) Neil, what did I say? Victoria (1:04:30) What is that? ⁓ I'll go first because I won't probably win. ⁓ that ⁓ wait, I thought that's what we, that is our wrap up. It's the shrink wrap up. Yeah. ⁓ no, that's about it. just that like, ⁓ willpower can be positive and negative or it can have its downsides, but, ⁓ Chris (1:04:43) We're going to the wrap up now, evidently. Go! ⁓ It is if I was just I I just wanted to make I just wanted to make sure that you didn't have any other thoughts Victoria (1:05:05) It can be used as a good thing and it's nothing to be afraid of. That's all I got. And this one here. Chris (1:05:15) All right, I guess I'll go second and I'm going to say, you know, look, willpower is wonderful. Having self-control, having the discipline, having the capacity to make your choices and get into routines and set habits. These are all things that we're empowered for. We have to be really careful about mislabeling or misunderstanding how far willpower can get you. This is a cautionary tale because you really build up shame and blame and doubt and hurt and fear and interpretation of failure amongst other things if you use this intent wrongly or dangerously. So, willpower is great. Don't overuse it. Understand that you get war down and hopefully you've heard some things in how to build it up. Victoria (1:05:49) It takes the body. Go. John Pope (1:06:04) say, thank you, Chris, Victoria, and I'm going to say that in this journey of life that we're in, willpower is a tool. It's not the whole thing. It is ⁓ one factor in one's life. And I think it's important to realize that the reason why willpower works or maybe doesn't work is reframe it and think in terms of more self-discipline. then in this journey, you accrue allies that would be able to help you along this journey. And you can rely on each other's weaknesses or worries or problems, and you're not going it alone. And yet you're also developing for oneself the willpower that one needs to succeed. Chris (1:07:02) Neil, honestly, brother, I think we're kind of getting better at this shrink wrap up stuff, brother. Have fun. What you got? Neil (1:07:10) I liked Chris that you talk about the willpower doesn't last forever willpower gets you started but you have to have systems but I think John's part where you talk about relying on other people too as you build it out I think that that's a key part because if you go alone it's your willpower is gonna drain faster right if you're on a motor you're hitting it full throttle you're gonna run a gas a lot faster but if you go steady you kind of go through that pieces it's gonna last longer and it's gonna be more successful so people with you build a system it's I think that's something to remember willpower something that you can rely on others to help you keep moving forward, know, groups and communities and those things. So I might give it to John today. Chris (1:07:47) John you got it brother, I'm proud of you. I told you I was nervous on this one man. Victoria (1:07:50) Okay, well look I'm not having any expectations because I was in and out Chris (1:07:56) I know we're going to get this together and we really here I want to say ⁓ to the listening audience like thank you for your patience with that and one we're new on Riverside John Pope (1:07:57) Okay. You Chris (1:08:05) this version and two we're really getting organized around Victoria and you know being at home and stuff so we'll get better at managing it thank you for your patience with it closing thoughts let's get out of here Victoria (1:08:08) Yeah, earlier when I said things bother me that I could smack someone Lucas goes Mommy we don't do that Chris (1:08:27) That is a mic drop. Listen, stay well, be well. We'll see you guys next week. Victoria (1:08:30) So I think, yeah. John Pope (1:08:34) All right. Love you guys. Thank you. Bye bye. ⁓ gosh. Victoria (1:08:35) Okay, bye guys.