In this episode, we sit down with Dr. John A. King—founder of Give Them A Voice Foundation—to break the silence around male sexual abuse and sex trafficking. We confront cultural myths, unpack grooming and trauma bonding, and explore how PTSD often shows up in men as anger, shutdown, hyper-independence, or shame. Drawing from insights in Trauma and Recovery and research from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention ACE Study, this episode challenges listeners to examine minimized trauma, misplaced shame, and survival patterns that may be masking deeper wounds.
Tune in to the PTSD from Male Sexual Abuse & Sex Trafficking Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Why is male sexual abuse talked about so much less than female sexual abuse?
- How does trauma from sexual abuse affect identity, masculinity, and emotional regulation?
- What does real recovery from sexual abuse and exploitation actually look like?
Links referenced during the show:
Social sites :
IG : @drjohnaking Threads: @drjohnaking X: @drjohnaking FB page: @drjaking Pin: @drjohnaking
YT : @drjohnaking LinkedIN : @drjohnaking TikTok: @drjohnaking Substack:@drjohnaking
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm8400508
Stopping Traffic Documentary – https://youtu.be/Z_MuHiqdi4c
Here is a documentary someone did on his recovery process. Light in The Darkness – documentary on PTSD (Full length) – https://rumble.com/vk8kju-ptsd-recovery-documentary.html
Dube et al. (2005) – Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE Study)
Strong correlation between childhood sexual abuse and long-term PTSD, depression, substance abuse.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/index.html
Easton (2014) – The disclosure process for male survivors of sexual abuse
Highlights intense shame and delayed reporting patterns.
Journal of Interpersonal Violence
Herman (1992) – Trauma and Recovery
Foundational work on trauma bonding and complex PTSD.
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/personalstories
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/individualdiagnosis
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
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Episode #345 Transcription
Chris (00:02) Hello, this is Through a Therapist's Eyes. We are coming at you on a weird day of Saturday, February the 21st. I say weird because usually we record on Thursdays. You can catch us on the YouTube lives if you happen to catch us for the first time. We fire up usually Thursdays about 6 to 6.15, maybe more like 6.30. ⁓ But today we have a special show that we've got. I'm really, really excited about this. This is gonna be a powerful show. Right up from the beginning, I wanna kinda remember and say though, we will be talking about male sexual abuse and other like topics. you know, if you have young years in the cars, if you have, you know, children around, some of the things we talk about might not be as appropriate for, you know, the little guys and gals, because we are talking about male sexual abuse and sex trafficking, PTSD and recovery with a gentleman I am super, super happy. to have joining us ⁓ Dr. John King. ⁓ Man, welcome to Thru a Therapist Eyes. I'll give some more intros, but we need to get at it, John. I'm really glad to have you a part of Thru a Therapist Eyes. How you doing today? Dr John A. King (01:09) Right, Mike. Yeah, doing good, mate. G'day, how you going? Looking forward to this. It's going to be a good chat, I'm sure. Chris (01:18) Yeah, yeah. So I know that you have a couple of ⁓ documentaries that you have been a part of, Light in the Darkness and Stopping Traffic, where there is a just a ⁓ powerful, powerful highlight on personal experiences and what you had kind of going on as a youngster. ⁓ And we'll get into some of the all the other things that you've done, you since then growing up and being an adult. But let's start just real briefly there as a little youngster. What got you into this topic? Dr John A. King (01:58) Well, I was abused from four to 16. I just got too big, or four to 12 or something like that. I can't remember really. In some aspects of it, we would call trafficking today. And so that was my experience. And I didn't know any different as a kid. It was just my experience. It wasn't until 2008 that I had recall and I came to understand the extent of what had happened to me. As an adult, you got a chance to reflect. As a child, you just gotta tolerate. Chris (02:29) Yeah, yeah, it's wild. ⁓ A light in the darkness. I watched some of that at, what is it, on Amazon Prime, I think, right? And where is stopping traffic? Dr John A. King (02:40) I believe it's on there as well. I don't know where they're up to. They weren't my documentaries. were just ones I was privileged to be a part of. Chris (02:42) is it? Yeah. And I must say you looked a little younger on those episodes. ⁓ Dr John A. King (02:51) You know, I've got some miles on the clock, man. I'm 62 or 63 this year, I think so Chris (02:56) I was watching it and then I was seeing you in the man church thing that you do and I was kind of like, wait a minute, is that the same dude? That was back in the day. Well, listen, this is through a therapist eyes, usually where you get insights from a panel of therapists. Today it's going to be me and ⁓ John talking about this heavy topic. Neil, you could jump in too if you want to, man, brother. I know that this is a topic that you probably have a lot of things to say. So we might even have Neil come out of the behind the curtain on this one. Dr John A. King (03:02) Yeah, it's the same dude, brother. Chris (03:24) But knowing this is not to deliver therapy services in any way. Like I said, we're coming at you on February the 21st, episode 245. I ⁓ have those books out through a therapist's eyes, Re-Understanding Emotions, Becoming Your Best Self, and another one on marriage. We ask you to do your part. We provide you information on mental health and substance abuse. We disseminate, blow up stereotypes and myths, and kind of get good information out there because... We are licensed clinical therapists doing clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly about what actually helps and what we see throughout the day in our offices. Click, subscribe, that's your job. ⁓ Dr. John King, if I get confused and call you Dr. Pope, I apologize in advance. Dr John A. King (04:12) Alright, just don't call me late for dinner mate, we'll be fine. Chris (04:15) ⁓ He gets upset if you don't give us five stars. He always points out, we have to have five stars on this thing. now we should have six stars because we've got Mr. King with us. Contact it through a therapist. That is a great way to contact us. Look, this is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together. And in a big way, what a big topic this is and how big is it in the world today in so many ways. ⁓ John, I'll just. Dr John A. King (04:22) There you go. Chris (04:44) well, let me do justice too before I... Yeah, now I got myself out of King. Out ⁓ of turn. ⁓ Mr. John King is an Australian-born indigenous... You're gonna have to help me with this one, man. Wuramungu? Dr John A. King (05:00) It's close enough, mate. Chris (05:02) Where is Wurumungu? He's an author, speaker, survivor, advocate. Where is Wurumungu? Dr John A. King (05:08) That's five hours, it's five days drive from Sydney. it takes you about five hours, 30 hours continuously. It's right in the red center, north of a place called Alice Springs by about five hours. So between a town that's five hours away and nine hours away, sits right there in the middle of the red dirt, mate. Desert folk. Chris (05:26) Man, I think I would really enjoy a trip to Australia man that that that place for some reason just seems Absolutely magical in a lot of ways Dr John A. King (05:34) Yeah. I connected with my family for the first time just two years ago because the Australian government had a policy of removing aboriginals. They have a policy of breeding the blackout. And melanin in indigenous people is recessive and Africans is dominant. So by the time you get to the third generation, they're blond-haired brown-eyed boys like I was. And I just connected for the first time. Man, we weren't considered part of the nation or humans until 1967. In 95, we got our first right to speak our own language and culture back. So, you know, there's a whole generation of people that have been stolen, taken off their families. And so I reconnected with them for the very first time. It a miraculous, miraculous event. ⁓ Chris (05:56) Really? my goodness. Wow. Dr John A. King (06:24) So I spent nine months, I spent 18 months out of the last two years living under a tarpaulin in the bush, Hutton Goanna, learning my law, learning my songs. I'm actually a Gullungur, which is, I'm a tribal law man. My responsibility with my family is to teach law and stories. Chris (06:45) Wow, I'm kind of fascinated by culture. mean, we're honored to have an international podcast that flows around throughout the world. I hope we got some downloads from Australia this time. ⁓ I could just stay parked on the culture thing and dig into your head with all of that. It's fascinating, man. I wanna explore what you just said, but we don't have time. That sounds. Dr John A. King (07:02) It is. ⁓ We'll do another one, man, when it comes to men's and women's business and the rites of passage for young men and the role of an elder, a man's role as an elder, it shifts and tilts everything and realigns it, you know, really a lot of what we're missing in Western culture. Men are embarrassed to get old. Chris (07:16) Yeah. Dr John A. King (07:26) as opposed to as a Wurrumungu man, there's something that's very honorable about it. The more gray in your beard and your hair, the more honored you are and respected. So it's a different thing. Chris (07:37) Wow, we definitely don't have that culture. Before we turned the mics on, I told you, man, I killed myself today. I depleted myself doing yard work like all day long. And yeah, I could tell that I do not like getting older, man. It's not something that I'm happy about. I was out there in the yard like I'm 32 years old. That's why I got to sit down this coffee at four o'clock in the afternoon on a weekend. But I do digress. ⁓ John has founded the Give Them a Voice Foundation, the champion male survivors of childhood sexual abuse and combat human trafficking. He translates hard-won recovery into practical brotherhood-driven frameworks that help men rebuild disciplined purpose in relationships. Powerful work, dude. You know, I just so looking forward to this conversation. His work has been featured in award-winning documentaries, as I said, Stopping Traffic and Light in the Darkness and across podcast stages serving law enforcement. veterans and community leaders. And I love that, by the way, dude, I've long held the belief that are especially men and women behind the line in law enforcement need, they need our support in a hard, hard way. So he's currently publishing a memoir and several fictional books. Got to read some of the fictional books based on your life and anti-trafficking work. He's also actively building. want to hear about the Phoenix Collective. a performance mindset platform for people who have experienced trauma and those who support them. Man, it's a lot. That probably does not give you justice about all the things that you're doing, because I know you've got a church thing that you do online. ⁓ What did we miss? How did we do? Tell us a little bit about Mr. John King. Don't be bashful, brother. Dr John A. King (09:22) I having autism is gift. Between autism and PTSD, mate, I get a lot of things done. Other people are sleeping. You know what I mean? I got a feeling. Brother, yeah, I do. I'm ⁓ very high functioning, very high masking. know, people with autism are probably, I think it's four or five times more likely to be abused. Chris (09:34) You got a little spectrum going on? Dr John A. King (09:49) It's part of the inability to be able to gauge emotion and relate to people. It makes you very vulnerable to trust issues. so that whole area there with people with autism, et cetera, it's a whole other thing to unpack. And again, I'm late to that knowledge. I was diagnosed as an adult. So diagnosis is something that people... Chris (09:57) Right? Dr John A. King (10:13) users excuses as opposed to reasons. For me, even my diagnosis of PTSD, my first diagnosis was borderline personality disorder, but I had a great therapist, she declassified me. She said, you don't want that, that's a death sentence. So let's do some work and talk about this and just give you something to handle. And so a lot of people get, and they put it in their Instagram buyers and whatever it is, their PTSD survivor and all that. And I just think they're labeling themselves. You your past should always... ⁓ refine you not define you. And when it comes down to me with something like the awareness and understanding that I am autistic, it gave me reasons for behavior not excuses for behavior. And it actually answered some questions to some issues in my recovery that I wasn't able to answer. didn't understand why. ADHD, I didn't understand why. And now I've got this matrix of things and a great Chris (11:00) Right. Right. Right. Dr John A. King (11:13) more grace towards why I am some way and need some things. And it's funny, and I got this diagnosis and Melissa looked at me and said, why is that a surprise to you? Of course you're autistic. What the hell do you mean, woman? Well, know, well. Chris (11:21) you Yeah, she's been observing. She's been observing. know, yeah, man, listen, you know, I agree with you and I'm going to push a little bit in a different direction there just to help us frame up a little bit too, because it can be a label. I mean, I'm a big believer in what I do as a clinical licensed therapist, you so I do therapy all day long. That's my life's work. And it is important to understand as a starting spot, like what is going on. I still use the word Asperger's. I don't know if you know that word. Dr John A. King (12:02) Yeah, it doesn't matter. Chris (12:02) That whole autism spectrum thing, that drives me nuts. you know, when you're talking about PTSD, when you're talking about a label or a diagnosis, to me, it is exactly what you said. It helps us to kind of understand some a little bit of like why something is and what it is. Not what you are though. Not the identification of that in you. You are still you. This explains some things. Dr John A. King (12:25) Yeah. Chris (12:30) Now what do we do to move forward in life with it? Dr John A. King (12:33) Yeah, exactly. In my first marriage, when I was diagnosed with it, I was greatly relieved. The previous administration just couldn't cope. She couldn't get her head around the fact that, one, for some reason this became my issue because I was sexually abused, I was some sort of pervert. And so she just couldn't cope with that at all. For me, it was the greatest sense of release because I'm an old boxer. And up until that point, I had no opponent. I had no one in the ring. And as soon as I got this, thought, OK, big guy, we're three minute rounds. You know, this thing's going down. I'm going to win this because I'm old and I'm tenacious. And I've got one more and I can stick it. You know, I've done my work. And so for me, having that, it gave me something to fight against, understand. And fight against, I don't mean in terms of friction because gratitude and all that sort of stuff we do. But you do, you have a target. OK, I'm going to solve this problem. I'm gonna live with this, I'm gonna manage this thing. And so my whole walk of recovery was literally that, is getting tools from a toolbox. How do I manage this thing on a daily basis? How do I do it, you know? So, yeah. Chris (13:44) You know, there's a lot there and I'm one, as a therapist, you might think we're passive or docile or just sort of being validating and doing all the polyamorous stuff and then we do lot of validating and listening and doing safety and that type of stuff but. I like to think of the things that we're dealing with, whether it's OCD, PTSD, ADHD, whatever letters you want to throw at this stuff, right? You know, it's not really needing to be aggressive, and we're definitely not wanting to be passive. It's how do we be assertive? And I want to go at it, man. I think of how do we attack? Three-minute rounds, let's go. I'm all down, man. You what do we need to hit? How do we hit, though? How do we hit? And then we go at it. Dr John A. King (14:25) Yeah. Yeah. And that for me was a toolbox. was literally, you know, I'm a Christian man. My faith is very important for me for my recovery. And I was sitting in bed one day and literally it was like a voice from heaven said, I am your heavenly father, not your fairy godmother. And every day you need to get your butt out of bed, take yourself to the shed and get tools for your toolbox. And it was like, Chris (14:55) Wow, you gotta say that again, Dr John A. King (14:56) You gotta get out and get your butt out of bed. I am your heavenly father, not your fairy godmother. You got to get the butt out of bed, get yourself to the shed, and get tools for your toolbox. And he gave me this picture of one of those little old red toolboxes with black handles our grandads all had. And he literally, the impression I got was this box was empty. He said, and every day, and I read 200 books in probably two years, three years. And every day it was a new tool. And I started to think about this and it was like, there'll come a time where you'll need that spanner. If you don't have that spanner with you, you can't use that spanner, but that spanner is what you need for this job. And it was this group. So I set about ⁓ assembling this group of tools that I would have with me everywhere. And so for me, trauma recovery, it's not a quick fix. That's one issue I believe we have. And secondly, it's not a one and done. It's something you manage for the rest of your life. So if you're not trying to equip yourself with a toolbox, then what are you doing? That's what you're doing. You're equipping yourself for the journey forward, not just for the here and now. Chris (16:09) Absolutely. That's ⁓ yeah couldn't agree more man. ⁓ let's get into a little bit if we will I mean I refer you the listener right go check this out. It's a it's a powerful documentary He's not the only one featured in ⁓ light and darkness and I must confess I didn't get a chance yet to see stop trafficking But you know his story is out there. It's not hard to find but John just for context and whatnot would you be willing to walk us through a little bit of the the you know, the the torment the the events the the things that really got you into this. And I gotta point out, you gotta see us on YouTube Live. My boys got this awesome stogie, man. If I wasn't in my living room with my dogs in here, I'd be totally having one with you, man. We're have to do that later. But yeah, what happened? What's kind of the highlights of the story and stuff? Dr John A. King (16:56) Well, my first sexual act was four. It was oral sex with female caregiver. And from that point on, it was just an accumulation of different things. ⁓ It was, you know, being taken to parties, being trained to perform sexual acts on women. know, movies made of me. You know, I was introduced to porn as a very staple diet very early on. So they were all part of the thing. And so you become broken in an area of your soul and you attract brokenness. So that led them to homosexual abuse during the scouts and a series of other things. Then in the college and know, ⁓ professors and all those trying to hit on me and well, everyone's like, dude, I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm not gay. What the hell is this? You know, what is, what's going on? But you get broken in an area. And, but by then, by later on in life, I was just too big, too rough and too angry. And it became very violent when people would try and, you know, because I didn't understand what I was dealing with because still at that stage, these were these one off micro slice things I hadn't yet understood. I couldn't remember. I never remembered back to what happened to me as a kid until 2008. Like these memories all started to come back from there. And so it was just my life. My life was just that. I was, I was involved in these things all my time. The people that raised me were swingers. So there was all these sorts of things that went on and happened all the time. know, was given pornography from six or seven years age, access to all that sort of stuff all the time. And so that was just the environment I grew up in. And it's very interesting because at the same time that I was all happening, I also had some very, very miraculous spiritual encounters with God. And they were the mainstays during that whole time. is my underst- that was the mainstay, that were the things that I believe kept me. Again, I only look- I understand that in retrospect. There was never a sense of abandonment from heaven. There was a sense of grief in heaven for what I was dealing with. You know, you hear heaven cry for your brother and it'll change your life. And so, so that really was it, you know, and then the Scouts thing. What I realized later on is when you get this brokenness in your soul, you attract it. Chris (18:49) They were the what? Dr John A. King (19:19) And so that's why it's very important to connect with people like yourself because you've got to not only do the work emotionally, but I believe soul wise and spiritually, you've got to connect those re reconnect and rebuild those walls of your soul, or you will keep on attracting these sorts of things, people, situations, addictions into your life. And so that became a very important thing. It wasn't until I started to actively rebuild those areas of my soul, ⁓ mind, body, emotion, spirit, that I think my recovery and healing started to really take some wings. Chris (19:56) You know, we have examples like, you know, Antoine Fisher was a powerful movie. ⁓ you know, good wheel hunting. ⁓ you know, there's, there's really good depictions and I can't tell you how much of an honor it is to be a therapist, John, and walk through that with people and, know, and see how active recovery from these horrific things that people are experiencing, you know, a lot of times alcohol and drug-affected families, you know, and there's physical violence that kind of goes along with this oftentimes. Dr John A. King (20:00) Wow, Yeah. Chris (20:26) and the feelings just get all subterfuged inside and explode out in that anger. ⁓ You know, one of the things I do in therapy that I think is really important, even for this conversation and for you listening, you know, because these things can be triggering, right? They can be hard to hear. They can be hard to listen to in some ways. And so when I'm in therapy, I will tell people like, we don't even talk about sexual traumas. don't talk about the abuse, physical, whatever. until we're handling current emotion well enough. Like you said, I love the lunchbox, man. ⁓ I'm a Wheeling, West Virginia guy up in the blue collar, man. So we got our lunch pail in one hand, we got the Red Tool case in the other hand. So I love that. And so we don't even do that. But then when we do get into it, there are some things to understand that one, for instance, like you control the pace, how quickly, how slowly we go into dealing with these things. You get to control the depth, how little. Dr John A. King (21:05) Yeah, exactly. Chris (21:22) You share how much you share all that. It's important when you're talking with somebody that they, that you understand that, the details are okay. That the person can handle that. Cause there's a natural fear. Like if I say this, it'll be good to change or, you know, a fourth thing. Yeah. The fourth safety rule that I do is like, you know, our relationship is what it is. We are, we're engaged in therapy and that doesn't change anything. Cause again, the fear is, know, if I tell you this or that or share these things. Dr John A. King (21:35) Yeah, yeah, it's going to change the relationship. Chris (21:52) our relationship will be completely different. And, and, ⁓ you know, and then we go along talking and dealing with these things because, because, know, if you don't, it'll, it'll run, as you said, all the way throughout life. So you never really, it sounds like had the potential of dealing with these things. And you adored this at age four, all the way through elementary school. And, know, we called it junior high and high school and then into college. mean, When were you able, and I guess we'll talk later on about recovery pieces, but when were you able to start getting your arms wrapped around this in a way of being able to identify what happened to you and whatnot? Were you in your 30s or so? mean, 2008, that's a 45. Yeah, that's a long time. Dr John A. King (22:37) I was 45. It was a Thursday, man. 10.45 in the morning, I remember it. ⁓ Daffodils. Because when I'd walk to school, if the days were too dark and the nights too rough, and I'd walk to school, and there was a lady, Mrs. McGregor lived two doors down, and she had these plum trees. And under these plum trees, she planted daffodils. And I would count... I would count my survival on spring times. So every spring the daffodils would come up and they would give me hope I'd made it one more year. I'd made it one more year. And so this particular Wednesday, or Thursday it was, like Simpsons. Blue sky, white puffy clouds. I remember walking out of my shed, riding shed I had, and I looked down and saw these daffodils and I said, they're beautiful, and that was it. It all came flooding back. went from being little single frames of 8mm film, they seemed to all join together and just started to run. And they just ran continuously for about seven years. Sometimes they still do. ⁓ But it was seven years, just constant daymares and nightmares. Like I'd be sitting, I'd be preaching in church and all these orgy and pornography scenes would be playing out just in my mind, or everywhere. I'd be in restaurants and I would see... Chris (23:48) Wow. Dr John A. King (24:02) know, pictures and images up on walls and on people of things that were done to me, things that had been made to do. And it was just constant, you know, just cycle. And it was, it's the hardest thing I've ever done, is live through that period and get up every day with no hope and believe that at some point I'd find it again. Chris (24:28) You know, I love growing things. I love gardening and trees and flowers for sure, dude. I'm never gonna see daffodils the same way. ⁓ What a beautiful flower it really is. ⁓ You beat me to the punch in that I heard you talk about that in the light and the darkness. That is a very powerful reality because the human psyche is amazing, man. It will protect you. It's amazing that the powerful regression, repression rather, I meant to say. You know, when something's too hard to handle at age five or seven, man, it's just like, boom, didn't even happen. Memory's gone. You know, it's like, you're fine, you know? What a powerful, powerful thing this human body is that we have, right? And so you're saying at 45 years old, you're doing better in life. Maybe my rule number one with trauma rules, safety first. You don't deal with this until you're in a space in your life. And it's almost like you're just described a beautiful reality that something so beautiful the daffodils just opened up like this ability to recover, Dr John A. King (25:33) Man, I don't know if it opened up, but I feel like more like my mind vomited my past all over my very pristine, uber successful world traveling, preaching, coaching business. I went from that to a locking. Like I had a stutter so bad, people would walk away from me embarrassed. And I was a complete lock in mate. I was, I couldn't leave the house. I was too scared. Chris (25:39) ⁓ yeah, yeah, man! Whew! Wow. Dr John A. King (26:02) too scared to let my kids out of my sight, too scared to let the wife at the time go to the grocery store. I'd follow her up in the car and just sit there because I was scared for her. She saw that as controlling. I was frightened that someone was going to do something to her or my kids that they did for me. Because up to this stage, I didn't realize that that was the thing. I was accused sometimes of being too much of a helicopter parent and too fearful. There's nothing to worry about. I never realized what was the basis for those things. And when it came back, it's like I couldn't survive the thought of my kids being in some friend's house and what was done to me done to them. Even the fact that my children, I've never bathed them. I've probably changed one diaper a child for each of the kids. I couldn't do it. I was repulsed from touching my children. So some of that I get into now and I understand with... Chris (26:58) Yeah. Dr John A. King (27:01) the autism thing, the touch aspect. But for me was, there was something about seeing my kids naked that I could not handle and I never understood why. I couldn't do it and you know, so that feeds into the fact of being accused of being an uncaring, unsupportive father and husband and all that sort of stuff. But it wasn't, it was just, I'd been violated to such an extent, there was something in me that found it repugnant to touch a naked child. You know, just, and you know, we're talking newborns and stuff, like I just. Chris (27:31) Well, yeah, and I want to jump in because, we had a, we did a program called This Will Not Defeat Me. And if you're listening to this show, you got to go to our website through therapistize.com. Check out that show. You can go to the website through this will not defeat me.com as well because, and I'm going to introduce you to my buddy, man. Chris Davos is an amazing dude. You guys, oh my gosh, you guys are kindred freaking spirits, brother. You have no idea. Neil, you got to agree with me, right? We got to introduce these two. You know what I'm saying? Dr John A. King (27:50) You're fortunate, Neil (27:59) Yeah, they're definitely two birds with the same feather kind of thing. Chris (28:03) It's almost nuts. It's almost nuts, John, because he talked about, you know, in his sexual abuse, which was devastating and all with him, he was very courageous in sharing his story as well. you know, and he talked about like those experiences, just like, you know, seeing your beautiful baby in bathing them and whatnot, and having this sort of unexplained reaction in turn, it's almost like your body revolts. And here's the thing, you don't know why. Dr John A. King (28:31) Yeah, you've got no idea because you haven't remembered it yet. You've got no context for it. And the judgment that comes on you is again, you're an uncaring father and not supportive husband. like, well, okay, well, I'll do anything else. And why are you repulsed by your own children? And logically you're going, well, I don't understand this and I'm not, I love them to bits. It's just, I can't see them naked. I can't see them naked. Chris (28:34) Yeah. Yeah, and you know, along the similar lines, listen, if you have any experiences, you listening to this program, that have made you wonder and don't make sense in why you feel the way that you feel or what you're experiencing and the way that you experience it, particularly with your own sexual relationship, right? Because people that are survivors of sexual abuse will oftentimes go in one direction or the other. And sometimes you can go in one direction, switch and then go in the other. And that is, know where I'm going, John, I bet, you you'll be, you'll become hypersexual or everything's sexualized and everything's kind of like, you know, multiple sex partners, just wild. Or I don't want to have anything to do with sex. don't, I don't, I don't want to ever just shut down with it, you know, and you can go back, vacillate too, right? Dr John A. King (29:48) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And neither of those are healthy, you know. And what I did a survey with my memo, I a survey, just a small non-clinical survey, about 127 people that had all been abused. And what was really interesting was the gamut of reaction, as you said, from hypersexuality to zero sexuality. And it wasn't, it was both across heterosexual and homosexual, ⁓ you know, lifestyles. Chris (30:13) Mm-hmm. Dr John A. King (30:20) and it was very very interesting and what was one of the saddest things in that survey was I think if I remember right about 85 or 95 percent of everybody said they'd never really talked to their partner about it and none of them felt they could be authentic ⁓ especially around asking for sexual needs like I want to try this I want to do that and they just couldn't do it because of this shame and the guilt and because they really didn't have a hands around what they were dealing with themselves. Chris (30:54) It's powerful feelings on a visceral level that you just have no tools before you learn them on how to handle it. Now you're, you're, it's just dark, man. It's full of darkness. It's, it robs you of innocence. Dr John A. King (30:57) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah it does. It's a it's a really vile thing to do to a child. It's a vile thing to do to Chris (31:14) So you talk about sex trafficking, let's talk about that a little bit because that's an interesting word and it's big now. Maybe we can, we talk about current events on this show as well and we have a big case going on now with Epstein. ⁓ You ever hear of that guy? Dr John A. King (31:33) Yeah, yeah, was, the guys I was working with were involved in the tail end of that case. And then the guy who took over from him, Peter Niger, were involved in gathering evidence and putting some of the people that were, ⁓ you know, that he trafficked in the witness protection programs, civilian witness protection programs in the States. So I, you know, I wasn't the front of that tip of that particular spear, more, you know, management administration. But we got to see a lot of things, a lot of very dark things. Chris (32:06) Well, that's what I was getting at. mean, it's such ⁓ a darkness that comes on because there's just no platform for this particular issue. I was screaming in my head, we had the Me Too movement. I love the Me Too movement. Women that are sexually abused are just in a state of silence and darkness as well. But I'm thinking in my brain, I'm thinking where's the He Too movement? And it's just, there's no platform. Dr John A. King (32:36) Yeah. No, and that's, think, you know, like 20 years ago I had recall. If you think about what the environment was 20 years ago, no one was talking about male survivors. I tried to go to support groups for victims of rape, support groups for victims of abuse, and I was told by these people that ran these, number one, I don't qualify for, I'm a male. Number two, this doesn't happen to men. And number three, I was a predator trying to prey on their vulnerable women. And it wasn't my highest moment. There was one particular church secretary I cussed out ⁓ because it's like, hurt, angry, non-believed. And the challenge I had with the Me Too, and with a lot of other things, particularly when you look at it statistically, that, know, probably it depends on who you talk to. You talk to police with boots on the ground, they'll tell you over 50 % of victims of sexual abuse are male. Chris (33:06) my god. Mad. Mad, man. Dr John A. King (33:33) You get into Afghanistan and the Pakistan areas, it's 95%. Boys are for pleasure, women are for procreation, boys are for recreation. And what we also don't talk about is females as traffickers, because about 45 % of traffickers are female. NIGA, who took over from Epstein, ⁓ used 125 women. And if you even look at what's happening in the Epstein case, so this Maxine chick, okay. Everyone's giving her a free pass now because she's some poor woman who was trafficked by Epstein Grimm. No, no, no. She was a grown-ass woman who deliberately recruited kids into Epstein's sexual abuse situation. If that was a man doing that, like Epstein, like Weinstein, you know, and I'll make a really politically incorrect statement in a moment, but they would be held accountable. My challenge with the Me Too movement... is the people that came out were over the age of 18 and dropped their knickers for a job. That's not abuse. That's lack of moral character. And I don't succumb to the whole power play thing. If you are internally strong enough and you know who you are and what you believe, then you walk away from those situations. Because I've walked away from situations. I know I've got one friend who's VP of PepsiCo for years. All the way through her career, she was off at the casting couch. And every time she walked away because of character and her morals and her commitment were greater. So I hold really no water for that movement because I think it's a total misrepresentation. What I'm seeing now with the Epstein stuff and the total lack of validity given to those victims, that nauseates me. Now I'm not saying that Harvey Weinstein wasn't a total dick. Chris (35:14) Mm. Dr John A. King (35:28) and should have been exposed by a whole range of people, but I don't put it on the same level with consenting adults making poor moral choices as opposed to children. The worst case I've ever seen was a 10-month-old baby boy raped to death for $10,000 in Russia and his body fell in a dumpster. What did that little boy ever do? What did that child ever do? Chris (35:47) Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Dr John A. King (35:56) That to me is the evil that we need to look at and examine in our own souls, that we live in a society where those things are black. And why does it matter if it's male or female? Like surely this is a human rights issue, not a gender politics issue. Chris (36:12) Yeah, there's definitely some things there for sure. I mean, I want to want to I want to cycle back and talk about traffic for a bit and then come back in to what's missing in a lot of the Epstein things. I appreciate before we do that, what you're saying in that, like, you know, there's there is power, though people can find themselves. I think, John, and I've seen it even even as adults, you know, domestic violence victims, for instance. I mean, it's. It's it's crazy because. Yeah, the moral issues and the decisions that you're talking about, I definitely see your point. And I think it also stands to be said that you find yourself in these situations and you don't know what's happening. know, when sometimes you find yourself into an adult situation, ⁓ we've had a couple of people, one of our therapists, Casey, did a show where she talked about she was 20 something or other. I know we're on a different topic with domestic violence and, know, ⁓ dating and mating and partnering with a narcissist and things like that. Like you, you don't even know what's happening when it starts to happen. You know, and then it starts threading itself into your life. And you you Dr John A. King (37:17) Absolutely. and you suck down into this thing altogether. I totally understand that. Totally understand that. And that's a different issue, as you said, that needs to be unpacked. I married a narcissist, I didn't know that. I was 25 and looking for love in all the wrong places. And so I didn't know and all of a sudden I was 25 years into this marriage and it's like, what the heck have I got myself into? And I'm a reasonably cognitive person. I've got all sorts of levels of sympathy and empathy. Chris (37:26) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Dr John A. King (37:53) for most folks, ⁓ Chris (37:55) So let's go back because trafficking is a specific topic that I think is a weird one. And what I mean by weird is you kind of have this image where people are abducted and then you're taken. And I had a therapy case where it was actually a lot like that. This woman lived a life where, you know, she was, she was living in a car and a van and you know, she was used and it was just terrible and her mother kind of didn't realize this but gave her into it and the next 10 years was just an awful thing. But that's not really the only way that trafficking happens, right? Like there's so much more underneath in a subtle and insidious way, oftentimes with people that you know, you know, like people that are supposed to be caretakers. So. So what is trafficking in your mind in the greater context of... Dr John A. King (38:58) forced cohesion, the inability to leave, ⁓ lack of sovereignty, you know, 60%, the border issue became political. For me, it was human rights because 60 to 70 % of everyone coming across the border was being forced. Now out of that, the forced labor component was over 60 % of men that were being brought into the country to run with the gangs or to be used as forced labor for money to go back to the cartels. any of this forced criminality that takes place, trafficking brings a greater return on investment, costs you nothing except another person's life, and you can use that person continually. 20 and 30 times a day at $150 a drop, you you just burn through those lives. It is, it's absolutely horrible. know, and I, you know, the average female trafficking victim has eight forced abortions. So, you know, if you, if you think about the cries by aspects of our society on Chris (39:52) Hmm. Just hard to imagine that John. Dr John A. King (40:09) the rights of women to their bodies. I'm pretty sure, you know, most of those people didn't want number one to be coerced into sex 100 times a day, and then to be forced to be, you know, for babies to be aborted from their body. it's just the whole range and gamut of the thing is far more than that. And then you get into Africa, and you've got the boy soldiers in Africa, where they're forced to kill their mothers and their sisters. in order to break their souls to turn them into soldiers. And they're given heroin at six and seven, eight years old. know, violate their women folk with barbed wire. There's a whole range of people that we dealt with and we're trying to help in Africa and different things. So, know, in sub-Hahara in Asia, boys, 60 % of trafficking victims are boys because of forced labor. So it's this whole coercion, capture, restriction. Chris (40:40) ⁓ no. Dr John A. King (41:03) of the free movement of movement, thought, ideas ⁓ and really it's enslaved. The best way to probably just for people to get a handle around it is because that you're right, it gets lost in the definition. It is the enslavement of another human being, their loss of free will and entity to serve the purposes and desires of somebody else. Chris (41:26) And the sad thing, and I think what I'm getting at is sometimes that happens as it's perpetrated from your stepfather or your own mother or a cousin. Dr John A. King (41:35) Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And exactly the case. You know, if you're looking for the white man, you're trafficking the black girl, you're missing out on the Asian woman trafficking the white boy. And, you know, we, we will talk to our girls and keep them safe. We never talk to our boys about being careful of manipulating women and sexual predators, male or female. And so I think there's a balance in the conversation that As parents in particular, we need to be prepared to have, and as a society, a conversation that we should be trying to actively engage in. Chris (42:10) Yeah, because what a lot of people don't know, and John, I'm sure you're aware of this, but when you look at the origins of sex trafficking, a lot of times, you eloquently defined it and whatnot. These are people sort of of their own free will. And here's what I mean. We talked to a private investigator who did this work, ⁓ Tom something. ⁓ Neil, look that up. What was his name? Very early on in our show, we did a show with a private investigator. And yeah, pop that for us. The amazing reality is these are folks that are children that are 15, 16 years old, they get pissed off with their mom or their dad, right? And they're like, I'm not following these rules. And they just leave the house and they think they're going to go out there on the world. And they start finding, holy cow, like I got to eat, I got to get myself figured out. And they meet somebody for three hots and a cot. And the guy or the girl comes on and says, hey, Neil (42:40) I'll find that I'll get back to you Chris (43:09) your mom and dad, they're mean, you know, I'm gonna take care of you. And they buy them beautiful dresses and bling bling jewelry and hook the little boy up with, you know, dimes and gold tubes, maybe, who knows, whatever, like, ⁓ amazing things. And little do they know what the intent is. And now, before you know it, you've befriended somebody that fully puts you into a trafficking situation. Dr John A. King (43:34) Yeah, and you know I think in cases like the Epstein one and the Kevin Spacey one, they're the sorts of things that went on. Is these very high level grooming that happened. And when we were doing a lot of our work earlier on, Twitter was the hub for pornography. Then it would go to Instagram where relationships were built and then it would be moved into private Facebook groups where active grooming would take place. I know this personally because my daughter at the time was 13. and she was probably two weeks away from being snatched because there was someone pretending cat fishing and pretending to be a 15 year old boy sending all these gifts and presents would turn up and ⁓ Chris (44:04) What? no, at your house? Dr John A. King (44:16) Yeah, she'd just bring them home from school. She'd be staying with a friend and come back and she'd bring it back. I had a moment, man, I had a dad moment. I got up at 3 a.m. and I just had to look at my kid's phone. And she had it locked down, but I've got a background in some things. So I just stripped all the messages off her phone, found it all, printed them out on paper and sat down there and had a conversation. And she's probably, you know. Chris (44:41) Wow. Dr John A. King (44:42) I did have it. It ended up being a 45-year-old single guy living in a mosque in Fort Worth. you know. Chris (44:49) my gosh, did you maybe go take a v- you found a dude? Dr John A. King (44:57) We had a chat. We had a chat. Chris (45:01) Fair enough, fair enough. Holy cow, I just got a shiver down my spine. Neil Savis, what was Tom's show and what was that? Neil (45:08) was episode 84 with Thomas Martin. Chris (45:12) Yes, episode 84, Tom Martin was an amazing dude who did this work. ⁓ John, he was a lot like you in the sense that he would find missing persons cases in exactly the way they got into traffic. I mean, he just talked about finding some of these kids and essentially save their life and beginning the healing road to recovery. ⁓ Dr John A. King (45:26) That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Chris (45:40) pretty wild episode would you say Neil? 80 now you forgot. Yeah, all the way back, man, we're at three something 50 now way back in the beginning of our our platform. You know, it's I can't imagine John. mean, imagine if you had those experiences where you found kids or got kids early on and and and you know, did some rescuing. Neil (45:46) in 84. Dr John A. King (46:05) No, to be honest. The involvement I had was the back end of the Epstein, but the people I was working with. And then the NIGA. And you know, when we were involved with the NIGA, we got followed home, we had devices planted on our car, our phones and computers were hacked. So we did what we did then. It was the largest case in American history at that stage, before the Epstein stuff came over. And so, you know, we're really, my focus has really been on the recovery side of things, trying to help these people because as you know, as I mentioned earlier, trafficking is the sexy side of things, the rescue is the sexy side for want of a better term. And the trauma recovery is the hard work and very few people are prepared to spend the time and the money it takes to do that or have the resources to do that. For me, it took Chris (46:45) Mm. Dr John A. King (46:57) probably fifteen years and three hundred thousand dollars you know i was just a privilege position to be out there switch a very visible public career in a private one and be able to find my own recovery as i went it's about ten thousand dollars per person per year to recover is what i've estimated Chris (47:16) an interesting kind of paradigm there. I never thought about it in that way, but that's an interesting good macro level. mean, if you want to help people, get involved in and understand what we're getting involved in is a long-term. It's not something quick, it's not something immediate. Dr John A. King (47:31) It's a long term. Well, you think, you even think of your fees, Chris. Like if you had someone and you were going to take them from, they've just been rescued, say at 18, believing it's gonna be 10 years for them to be a stable human being is about right. So just your fees, not the medical fees because of biological complications, ⁓ not the educational fees because they've probably never been educated. They probably can't read or write. So you start to add up all of these things and you know, it's like, yeah, it's. Chris (48:04) Let me just jump in, I just did math with a calculator, John. That's about $120 an hour for an hour therapy session. If you do 52 weeks in a year, just an hour session per week for 10 years, that's $62,400. That's what the number actually, that's wild. That's wild. Dr John A. King (48:22) And that's not that you've got syphilis, not that your uterus is broken or your anus has been so badly ripped. You're in for a series of major operations. The way Nygaard got caught is that the doctor who repaired the broken bones and the ripped organs on these children was caught with information and a conversation was had with him and he handed over the information on Nygaard. So... It was the doctor's medical records because the files he had on these children. And if you think of that long term, like they're damaged under these kids. Chris (49:02) And that's not make believe. I've had cases in my office, people that have lived this and the internal trauma, the total medical reality. can't, know, yeah, it's like I said, it's a lot. But I wanna get back before we forget, you know, with the Epstein thing, the thing that's driving me nuts ⁓ about this whole thing and it's hot in the news and everyone's talking about it right now. John, I'm kind of amazed at that, in that current event, it is just thought of. as a woman's based victim world. mean, you hear things even like, you know, doing the congressional thing, there's, you know, look at the victims behind you, know, Ms. Bondi, and, you know, would you turn around and say you're sorry to these women? And I'm literally looking at the group and there's like two or three guys sitting there like, what, are we just invisible there? Dr John A. King (49:58) pretty much, and that's the unfortunate nature of it. We've got to a stage in our society where we are comfortable having a conversation about, an unfortunate conversation about the sexual abuse and trafficking of women and girls. Yet we won't have one about boys. Yet the WHO, the World Health Organization, clearly states that at least 60 % worldwide of trafficking victims are male. The disclosure rates are so low. Because the resources rates are so low, there's only one house in America for boys. It's in Justin, Chris (50:33) What do mean, how? Dr John A. King (50:35) a recovery house. And I think there could be one actually coming up on your side of the world. But there's only one or two. Whereas there's facilities for women all over. We have a, we have a, the United Nations has a whole department for the sexual trafficking and abuse of women, but nothing for boys. The first time that the report, the Homeland Department, Homeland Security, ever mentioned boys was as a result of the work we did. And that was back in 2017. They started to acknowledge the trafficking of boys worldwide and in America. Chris (51:08) think it's almost just something that feels unfathomable for people to recognize, again traps specifically and especially boys and then growing into men into bondage. We have what I believe to be one of the freaking largest, my goodness, call it cover-ups or schemes or whatever in the Catholic Church scenario. I had a client that turned me on to the reality. He was one of the... one of the victims up in the New York area. And we talked about his recovery and the process of what he did and what he experienced. you know, that's boys, boys, boys, man. I mean, and they would just, you know, move a priest around to another diocese to engage even further. Just tragic. Dr John A. King (51:57) It is Boy Scouts, same thing there. It's just, I just, yeah, I would just like people to be comfortable or get to a stage where people are able to have conversations and you're not a pariah. It's this was done to you, not by you. Yeah, this was done to these men, not by them. And they end up being broken through life and trying to work it out. Chris (52:04) These things are real. Dr John A. King (52:25) and unfortunately trying to work it out on their own, is just never going to happen. Chris (52:29) No, if you hear anything today and you're listening to this show, ⁓ there's bondage and isolation and trapped being alone for domestic violence, sexual abuse of all sorts. And I'm going to say especially men. And the natural instinct is to do exactly that, John. Let me just deal with this alone in my own head. And that I can't say loud enough is exactly what not to do and one of the most dangerous things to try to do. Suicide is absolutely a real thing when you begin to manage these things in your own head. Do not do this alone. Go to somebody that you trust, tell just one person and start there. You can't be alone. Dr John A. King (53:20) Yeah, you can't. You can't do it alone. I've come to believe that people who commit suicide aren't cowards as they're often portrayed, but they've made a either, I believe in most cases a very non, or a decision without emotion, and it's the only way they believe they can get free of it. Chris (53:21) Just kidding. Dr John A. King (53:46) And unless they've got other people to say, you know what, there is actually another way. And this is a path forward. And only when they start to engage with a therapist and walk with some people who've walked the same path, do they understand that it can be done. And you know, I'm so grateful we've got models for women that show that you can get whole. Unfortunately, we don't have those models for men. I remember when I saw Anton Fisher, I sobbed. and watching, know, Will Hunting. I mean, just to have a model that there is another example of a man out there. And when those emotions were portrayed by, you know, I mean, and you've, because it is your life, it's like, they're someone who got it. Even if it's an act of pretending, that someone who wrote that got it. They understood what was going Chris (54:17) I can't imagine. Yeah, it's a classic thing and not just with abuse, but suicide. People get very, very confused about it. And I've kind of layered out a clear understanding. mean, what happens is the person just has, as you said, it's almost non-emotional. You're dead on there. It's almost non-emotional. It's just a logical reality for me. And what the logic is, is look, I know that I cannot continue living the way that I'm living right now. Secondly, I have tried, hear the word, it's not accurate, but I have tried everything I know to do to feel better, so really there is no other choice. The only choice that I have is to end my life because of those two previous realities. Dr John A. King (55:15) Thank you. And I think with men there's another layer too of you look at the hurt you're inflicting on those that you call to love and protect and direct and correct and provide for. And it's like, and it's a poor decision because the fact is you're inflicting and impacting them for life, their own lives. But there's this cold calculated decision. And I was actively told this in my previous relationship. Chris (55:36) Mmm. Dr John A. King (55:52) that I would not recover and the best thing I could do was to remove myself. And so long term, not just divorce wise, but long term from the planet. And you go, you sit with him and you go, okay, yeah, I am causing a lot of, yeah, I'm not getting over this. This has been five years now. And yeah, I'm people and I don't want to. And I'm constantly reminded every day in barrage with how much pain and hurt I'm doing. And he go, oh, well, this is pretty easy to do. Chris (56:10) Well. Yeah. The shame and the guilt just overruns. Dr John A. King (56:22) Yeah. Overwhelms my totally overwhelming and I you know, I Chris (56:31) Yeah, Neil's popped on. You got thoughts, brother? Neil (56:34) Just and you even said and that was five years in and you're working with these people for ten plus years trying to help them recover I mean that that's the part that you have to understand and it can be very worrying and very tiring after years and years just trying to get better not realizing it so I just It just kind of that was kind of a crazy thing to hear that you would be told by someone that you know Supposedly cares for you that you'd be better off For you not to be here and that's that's the struggle that people really deal with Dr John A. King (57:01) Yeah, they do and you know we'll get into it in the next show but have a look at the number of 22 and 22 suicides. They're all male, predominantly male. 60 to 80 percent of them have had sexual abuse or physical abuse in their background. So you've got all this compounding trauma and there's no way out. Like how do I get out of this? Chris (57:28) Seems like there's no way out. Dr John A. King (57:29) Yeah, this seems like there's no way out. How do I get out of it? Because I'm a big tough-ass man. I've been serving my country around the world, killed bad guys. And the police are the same. The suicide rate in the police is horrendous. if suicide amongst men was called an epidemic, we have an epidemic. And we're not addressing it. We're not addressing that suicide. We're looking at 22 for veterans. I get it, but they're men. Chris (57:49) Mm-hmm. Dr John A. King (57:57) There's an underlying issue that we need to be asking some deeper questions. Why are our men who are coming back as heroes from overseas welcomed into a warrior culture back home? Why do they feel so useless? Why? What are we doing in terms of ⁓ addressing these issues with our men who happen to be police, our men who happen to be veterans, our men who, you know, there's a core issue and you cannot get good fruit off a bad tree. core issues there around masculinity and how we view it and what we've done to it, that I think we need to be, you we understand we're reaping what we've sowed with that. Chris (58:35) Absolutely, so you know what, that's a perfect segue. What we're gonna do here is, we had talked about it before, we're doing a part one here, because we're not done. We are not done. We are gonna talk about in part two a lot more of like the recovery, the transition to what happens in the healing power. I will leave you today with the clear indication that we're gonna talk about that next. that this is manageable, that you can heal, that you can recover from the darkness and being alone, whether whatever it is that you may have experienced. ⁓ For us, we're gonna continue this conversation in two minutes and 37 seconds. But for you, the listener, what's gonna happen is we're gonna do our month in review next week, and then we're gonna start the weekend off after that with part two, where we're gonna be talking about ⁓ recovery, right? Mr. King, can we recover? Dr John A. King (59:32) made it absolutely you know I'm walking proof that it don't matter how you can you know a doctor's theology but I tell people it's turning shit in the fertilizer brother so you can edit that out all you want but that's the odds I've scraped the crap of my life together and I love my life it's taken us a hard road to get here but John will tell it next one point two point John three point ⁓ is really really enjoying this phase of life Chris (59:45) Wait, no edit. That's absolutely powerfully beautiful. That's what we're after. That is what you can have in your life, you listening to the show. Absolutely, I've seen it happen throughout my therapy experiences. John has seen it in his walk with people and in his own life. I will end today by saying, what a courageous move, dude. You know, I love it when people are able to kind of speak plain truth. No editing is gonna be happening because this courageousness of sharing what you're sharing today is I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. All right. Two minutes for us, two weeks for you. We're going to see you on episode 246, seven or whatever it is, Neil. Take us out of here. Yeah, right. Dr John A. King (1:00:32) Thank you brother. Thank you very much. Neil (1:00:41) It's three, 346, 347. You keep saying two, it's three. We're on 300, Chris. Chris (1:00:46) Three, whatever. Yeah, one of those numbers. Thanks. We're to see you soon. Take care. Talk to you next week.