In this deeply reflective episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we explore the complex and often misunderstood nature of grief—what it is, how it shows up, and how we begin to carry it in a way that allows for healing. Holding On & Letting Go: Building Resilience Through Grief invites listeners to move beyond the myth of “moving on” and instead learn how to move forward with loss, honoring the connection, love, and meaning behind it. From the loss of loved ones and relationships to identity shifts, pet loss, and ambiguous grief, this episode expands the definition of what it means to grieve. We break down what resilience actually looks like in real life—not strength or toughness, but small, quiet acts of self-compassion, emotional permission, and connection. With practical tools, honest insight into grief in relationships, and gentle reminders that joy and pain can coexist, this episode offers a grounded and compassionate space for anyone navigating loss—and a powerful reminder that you don’t have to carry it alone.
Tune in to see Grief & Resilience Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What losses in my life am I still carrying that may need more space or compassion?
- How has grief shaped who I am today—both in painful and meaningful ways?
- What does resilience actually look like when someone is grieving?
Links referenced during the show:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10848151
https://www.tc.columbia.edu/faculty/gab38/faculty-profile/files/americanPsychologist.pdf
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Chapter 1.22 — Grief…
Grief is a fundamental emotional experience that shapes personal growth and emotional awareness.Chapter 1.25 — We are constantly a new self or a reconstituted self.
Loss often reshapes identity and life perspective.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
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Episode #352 Transcription
Chris (00:02) All right, hello and welcome to allergy season. I mean, wait a minute. It's April the 9th, 2026 and yes, it is allergies. That is why I sound a little bit different among other things, but welcome to Through with Therapy Sides. This is epith- episode. This is gonna be interesting, Casey. Gonna be interesting. You're right, you're right. Kasie (00:25) I was not allergies, yeah. Chris (00:29) We are on episode 352, Grief and Resilience, Holding on, Letting Go and Healing Through Loss. ⁓ We have some fun, not so fun elements of why we've chosen that topic, but more on that in a minute. The therapy questions that we want you to think about as we go through the show a little bit. We try to do reflection questions, right? It gives you something to think about while we're having our dialogue. ⁓ What losses in my life am I still carrying that may need more space or compassion? And then two, how has grief shaped who I am today, both in painful and meaningful ways? I can tell you from personal experience that is a foreshadow. Grief definitely shapes who you are today. Three, what does resilience actually look like when someone is grieving? Again, foreshadow. We will give you some indicators of that too. All right, listen, if you're finding us for the first time, we fire up on the YouTube live version of the show at about 6.15 to 6.30 on Thursdays. We love to connect with you on email as well. Contact at throughtherapisteyes.com. Listen, this is where you get insights from a panel of therapists in your home or in your car, knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way, but we are. Licensed clinical therapist doing real clinical work every day and this is where we talk honestly about what actually helps. Stay tuned because I have foreshadowed a couple minutes. I'm right in the middle of this daggone topic. How are you, Miss Casey? Kasie (02:03) Yeah, I am doing well. I mean, I think it's kind of fortuitous that we're talking about grief today. I know that you're going through things, but the truth is that we've all experienced some form of grief in our lives. And so I am excited to talk about this, even though it is a harder subject. There can be hopefulness in the hardness of it. So I'm looking forward to jumping in. Chris (02:29) So, awesome. ⁓ We have a panel. You heard Casey. We greeted her. We have Victoria. We will greet her shortly. She is doing childcare and stuff and whatnot since she's gonna jump on when she can. Mr. John Pope is the other panelist and he is not going to be able to join us. He is in the middle of the grief topic as well. ⁓ Our boy, I know he's comfortable me sharing this with him, with y'all. He just texted me actually. I'm not plused on how you... okay. He was responding to my question earlier today, but he did share that if you remember, John had a ⁓ magical ride where he was able to move to Florida down with his people. And his people included several, but most importantly, his 99 year old dad and his however old mom. And he has experienced the loss of his 99 year old dad before he turned centurion. He was intending to be on the show tonight because you know look we're genuine on this show we're real we're therapists but we're real people and I for one and I think the group is okay being genuine about what it is that we're experiencing stuff so that's what's in part on the topic today. So he's not able to be with us but we are in him in thought if you're a praying person you can pray for him and he would very much appreciate it or think of him and Maybe send an email or a post or anything that you want. Because he's really going through it. And we're with him in heart tonight, right now. So leave us a little review, man. Apple podcast people. Alright, I said last time, Casey, that we haven't had a new YouTube subscriber in a little while and Neil corrected me. He's like, yeah, no, we have like 25 new people. I'm like, okay, well, why aren't they posting? So if... Kasie (04:12) Thank you. Chris (04:25) You want to get an honorable mention, you need to make it public. You will do a little public thing on there or whatever, but subscribe. And we need to do a little bit more of the public announcements of some new people, right? Kasie (04:35) Yeah. And don't forget to give us five stars. We're looking for the five star rating. And here's why. And I'm saying this in honor of John because he's our five star guy. But ⁓ we really want to be searchable, right? Because our hope and our mission, we don't just do this to listen to the sound of our own voice or because we love ourselves so much that we want to create a podcast. We do this to try to reach people who are Chris (04:43) exactly. Kasie (05:02) questioning things, struggling, going through stuff to make it a relatable experience, right? It is the human emotional experience and we do endeavor to figure this out together. Chris (05:13) We made history baby Neil jump on applause with me. That's the first time somebody else Finished the setup Casey. I'm so honored. That's badass. Can I say that I can say that love that Alright, so here's Bill in the beans. Yeah, I've been in the middle of a little bit to my little sweet Sadie dog died ⁓ the other day and Actually gonna show a picture of her if I can get it quickly enough. She's Kasie (05:15) I'm not Awesome. Chris (05:42) She was 14 year old, our sweet little Sadie. She passed away, we had a heck of a 24 hours on that. You have to go to the YouTube live to see sweet Sadie Grace. That's my baby doll. Right? ⁓ She's a multi-Zorky mix. ⁓ If throughout this episode I start spelling words. Kasie (05:54) ⁓ What kind of dog was Sadie? Chris (06:03) because it's easier to spell them, to say them. I don't know why, it's what happens with grief. And I am in the middle of it. I feel like I'm gonna do okay today, otherwise I would take care of myself. shoot, I did a show a few days after my sister died ⁓ several few years ago. And I thought, you know what, this is a great topic. So Casey and I kind of cooked it up ⁓ in a very beautiful fashion. ⁓ My son and I, he was on FaceTime and we got to take her through to her last. Kasie (06:34) Yeah. So you know what's interesting is that you're explaining this beautifully as we kind of set up to kind of dive in and tackle some of the complexities of grief. that's it's often misunderstood as something being linear. Like you just said, even in your own experience, Chris, it's easier right now to spell some things than it is to speak them out loud. Chris (06:58) I find that so weird. You know, like I dove her G-R-A-V-E. Yeah, that's crazy. Kasie (07:00) Yeah Yeah. But I mean, it's just like the word Voldemort in Harry Potter. They go from a period of time where things that they experienced created a situation where they no longer named Voldemort and they referred to him as who shall not be named, right? So grief is non-linear. It's an unexpected experience. You're never prepared for it. No matter how much time you feel like you have to prepare, you're never prepared. it in reality it is nonlinear, unpredictable, and it is deeply deeply personal. And so there's a lot of things that can create grief within us, but if we think about several aspects of health. yeah, sorry, go ahead. Chris (07:50) You know, kick me see if I may, if I may, you know, just on that. I mean, it really is. It's like. so so much and when you say it's not linear right I mean We knew that Sadie was old and becoming more frail. know, know, sweet girl ⁓ stopped eating. You know, she stopped drinking water. And so it was like, every time I come home, you know, I'm anticipating whether or I'm gonna find her, you know, having passed. And, you know, my ex came the last night, you know, because we knew it was closer and closer and she was hanging out with her. Because you know, we can do that, by the way, a different topic, but yeah, we can do that. And it was a relief to know that I wouldn't come home and find that. You know, and then when she died, you know, and we did the whole, you know, she did the burial at our house. I cannot tell you how non-linear this is. I mean, I have been going from laughing my ass off at something cute that we remember and talked about to crying my eyes out that she's freaking not with us. Kasie (08:57) Yeah. Chris (09:04) You know, it's like, it's still here right now. mean, you know, I'm sure you could tell Lisa saved or Casey saved me a little bit there, you know, with like, you know, the intro with my son being with me. So it is beyond linear and I cannot tell you how much clinically I have had people dealing with grief and therapy where it's like they asked me this question, Casey. They'll say, blah, blah. Is that normal? You know what my response is, right? Kasie (09:28) Normal is just a setting on the dryer. Chris (09:30) Well, no, I say it is. I just say it is. You're more sophisticated with the responses, I guess, but they're like, I haven't cried at all. Is that normal? Yeah. I've cried all day long. Is that normal? Yeah. I can't sleep. Is that normal? Yeah. I want to do nothing but sleep. Is that normal? Yeah. And the thing is, it's it's all of this stuff, wrapped up all at once. And it's on me right now, right? Crazy, telling you. Kasie (09:54) Yeah, and because it's nonlinear, it also doesn't have a timeline. And I think that that's what's important for people to know. We often get hung up, and we'll talk about this in a little bit, but we often get hung up on the stages of grief. And if you don't hear me say anything else today, please understand that it's a very fluid process. The stages of grief are fluid and there's not a timeline on. what it should look like, how it should be, and at what point in time you should be over ⁓ a situation. Now there's often complexities that surround that, which we'll talk about in a little bit when we can kind of get stuck in a grief pattern, which we'll talk through. for the most part, what we're talking about here is something that is not predictable and deeply personal and belongs to the individual. ⁓ Grief is, it can be emotional. Right? You can take on the form of sadness, anger, guilt, sometimes even relief. People may feel grief in forms of relief too, especially if you're in the direct care of someone that's been suffering for a long period of time. Still hurts? Go ahead, Chris. Victoria (10:56) Mm. Chris (11:08) Do you know how much less pee there is in my house today than there was the last three weeks? I'm just saying. Just saying. That is a relief. Kasie (11:11) Right, yeah, nice. Yeah, for sure. It can feel physical. Chris (11:19) And you can feel that is my point, you know, it's okay to feel that is what you're saying. Kasie (11:23) Yeah, yeah, grief can be very physical. You can feel a lot of fatigue, heaviness in the body, disrupted sleep patterns like you were alluding to previously, Chris. Cognitively, you can feel some brain fog for guiltfulness, some confusion, lack of thought. People in my office have often said they just aren't having really any thoughts. They're kind of just numbed out. And then socially, we look at people that often... may feel like withdrawing from other people and like the loneliness that's experienced, know, and especially if you do services and stuff like that almost immediately afterwards, it's kind of like a big rush and then it's like nothingness. And so it really is all over the map sometimes. But perhaps and most importantly, grief is a reflection of love, attachment and meaning. We don't grieve things that didn't matter. And I wanna be careful here. I wanna be careful here, and this is why. You can grieve things sometimes that are unhealthy, but the challenge is what are you actually grieving? And that's what we'll talk about a little bit today too, because most of the time, you're grieving some part of yourself in those types of situations. Victoria (12:22) Mmm. Kasie (12:46) not the situation or the substance or what you had attachment to in the first place. Chris (12:53) Yeah, you you said substance and I think that's that's a big part of it. You know, a lot of times people that are in recovery will tell you that they actually whether they realize or not, some of them will tell you they grieved the loss of their relationship with alcohol, even though they're an alcoholic on the stages of grief. Real quick, Miss Victoria has joined us, by the way. ⁓ Did you did you do you remember? I think I gave you my my ⁓ one of the few handouts and worksheets that I use with this degree frame. Kasie (13:06) Bye. Victoria (13:11) Hi, guys. Yes, I call it my Bible of grief. Kasie (13:21) Nice! Chris (13:22) I love Victoria (13:23) ⁓ Chris (13:23) that. then, put in a good word for what this is related to the stages of grief. Instead, we have the tasks of grief. Victoria (13:31) Yeah, so this talks about how ⁓ instead of having your five stages of grief, your denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance, I think I covered them all, ⁓ it's talking about how it goes a step further than that and that the five stages of grief aren't wrong. You do experience those things, but there's just more to it. Kasie (13:44) Yeah? Victoria (13:59) So it's the sheet that lays out these tasks of grieving. So it's like define the loss, discuss the meaning of the loss. There's other ones like build a ritual around the loss. one of my favorite parts of it is, I think, I don't have it in front of me, but the second to last task talks about finding the everyday, like the everyday grief process and like, you know, making it, it's just a part of your everyday thing. And then the last part of it is like revisit the above process as necessary. And so it's not saying that like you have to go through these tasks once and then you're done, you're longer grieving, but it's saying like, as these things come up, you can revisit these tasks or just specific ones that are really either bothering you or you can't let go of or that are coming back up. And so I usually tell people, you can do it in multiple ways. Like, you can journal about each task. It can be like topics, conversation within the therapy sessions themselves. It can just be like answers or questions that you like kind of verbally talk out or process through. But then the bottom half of the sheet lists different feelings that you can have during grief. Sorry, I'm opening my kids toy. But and it lists like the five stages, but then it also Chris (15:31) You're fine. Victoria (15:39) It also adds more to it. So it talks about having gratitude for what was, and it talks about having loss and feeling confused and feeling other things other than the five stages of grief. And then it does mention at the bottom, like Casey has said, that grief is not linear, that it is a fluid process. ⁓ And so yeah, even your feelings, like you might be super accepting of the loss one day, and then the next day you can't stop sobbing and you're in denial again. Kasie (16:17) Yeah, and so everything that Victoria is saying and that Chris has given her resources on and things like that is absolutely the truth. what it really encapsulates is kind of the next couple of topics that we're going to work our way through. So that was a pretty good summative point. And now we're going to unpack a lot of that. So really, if you listen to what Victoria described, What you're seeing is that the processing of grief is really about not looking to push away the grief, but really allowing it to exist. And this is vitally important because please hear me on this. Grief is going to come out of you one way or another. And if we try to suppress and we try to ignore, it's gonna come out when there's a minor inconvenience. or traffic or a line at the store or some type of situation that doesn't Chris (17:20) The Pittsburgh Penguins lose a very important hockey game. Kasie (17:23) Yeah, when the penguins lose a very important hockey game, it's going to come out. So if we don't feel our feelings, we will often become them. And that's what we're looking to do when we're processing and becoming our most resilient self. So let's hop in. What are some varying types of grief? We really need to widen the lens on this. I think when we immediately think grief, we think about a loss, right? Loss of a loved one. loss of an animal, loss of a parent, a partner, it becomes really all consuming and it can really reshape your whole entire existence. And so that is a type of grief for sure. A lot of people would regard grief as being really significant in that arena, but it can also look different and sometimes people don't acknowledge what they're going through as grief. So another type of grief is relationship grief, breakup. Chris (18:21) Before you go, Casey, you know one of the things that tore me up through life? When I moved out of the state of West Virginia to the state of North Carolina, do you know how hard I grieved that? That was hard. Kasie (18:23) Yeah. What? Yeah. Yeah, and we'll get there because it's part of your identity, right? Like that becomes part of yourself and the relationships that you had with people there. And you can have relationships, and I'm not talking about romantically, but you can have relationships with your childhood home. You know, the memories of childhood, the memories of various locations that you visited. That's a really good point, Chris. Relationship grief is another category of grief. When we look at breakups, divorce, estrangements, And that can be in romantic partners or parent-child relationships or even friendships. Sometimes even work colleagues, you can grieve the loss of those relationships. ⁓ Pet loss for many pets are our family as Chris is experiencing right now. Losing them can be very devastating and disenfranchising and others may not validate that. And that is what's hard because sometimes when Victoria (19:34) Okay. Kasie (19:35) we use judgment to describe grief, it makes it as if what happened to a person wasn't significant. But these are significant losses. You can also have ambiguous grief where there's just no clear closure to a situation. For example, a loved one with dementia. There's no clear closure usually in that situation because the body continues while the brain is slowly shutting down and Chris (20:03) Great, Casey, why don't you hit me while it hurts? My mama's in memory care! Ouch! You know? Victoria (20:07) to. Kasie (20:09) Yeah, sorry. Yeah, but Chris, you can really speak in a test of this. The grief process is starting well before your mom will eventually pass away, right? So it's already starting. Chris (20:22) yeah. Well, I mean with Sadie, you know, I can't tell you how much grieving happened before the grieving event. I mean, she stopped eating for, you know, like a week in advance. ⁓ man, you wanna know something really crazy? It also, when you... Okay, so when you when you have this going on there's all different types of stuff and Then like I remember when my dog Magnum died. I saw dogs everywhere Okay, I was watching a show last night and they were talking about letting go. I'm like, God dang serious Well, just right now a friend I haven't got permission to share it ⁓ Yeah They've been on the show I guess I don't know Kasie (20:59) course. Chris (21:16) ⁓ Someone's dad just died. As we speak. As we freaking speak. It's crazy how, know, what I'm saying is like it's all around us. something that you just, you you keep on, it's all encompassing at times with all the different types of stuff that you're talking about, the types of grief. Kasie (21:21) Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Victoria (21:38) Yeah, one of my clients literally texted me today saying that their mom died. Today. And my next conversation was their next appointment is next Friday. So my reply was, you want to meet before Friday? Because, yeah. Kasie (21:45) Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty big. Yeah. But yeah, you're right. And what happens is that when we're going through an experience, we often do tend to notice it more often, right? And so grief in our brain can sometimes even give more meaning to other things that we see. on a normal basis, but we're really attuned with it at this point. And so we're really seeing a lot of it, which can create overwhelming feelings of sadness, destruction, death, depression, you know, and that's what we want to watch out for, right? But yeah, ambiguous grief happens, loss of your identity or life path based on things like career change or loss, health diagnosis. I mean, really think about... all the levels of grief that took place during the pandemic. How many people were suffering with grief and loss during the pandemic due to changes in ⁓ careers, changes in the formats of jobs, changes in our industry as therapists completely changed. Sometimes there's cultural or collective grief. Grief can also be shared. like a community loss, a societal change or global events. It can feel heavy even if it wasn't personal to you. And I just want to take a brief pause here and just emotionally reach out to anyone listening to the sound of our voices today. We know that there's a lot going on in the world. There's a whole lot happening. and through the instances that are happening in the Middle East, happening here abroad, there's a lot of civil discourse and unrest. Please know that there is a collective grief for the state and well-being of people in our country and abroad. Chris (23:52) Definitely a lot going on in the world. Victoria (23:53) Yeah, for sure. Kasie (23:55) Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of things that people often talk about is the concept of moving on. This is such a myth. Victoria touched on it a little bit. Moving on is such a myth. It's basically up there with Bigfoot, to be honest. You know, there's just... Victoria (24:15) Do you use the jar example? Kasie (24:18) No, tell me about the jar example. Victoria (24:20) Oh, Chris, do you know about the mason jar example? Chris (24:24) I don't think I do. Victoria (24:26) It's like, okay, so a lot of people imagine grief is like, you know, if you have like three mason jars that are all the same size and the grief inside of the mason jar, so the mason jar is you, your person. And then it's the, like, you say the same size and then the grief slowly gets smaller, but that's a bunch of BS. And what really happens is like the jars slowly get bigger, so we grow and the grief inside of us stays the same. So like, We grow, but we just, the phrase that is used is that we grow around the grief. And so the grief is still there. Yeah, the grief is still there, but yeah, you can use like other things other than messengers, but like, ⁓ the grief is still there. You just grow around it. So yeah, totally. There's no such thing as actually, that's why I use quotations. You don't move on. Kasie (25:03) yeah. I've seen that with circles. Yeah. Yeah! Yeah. Chris (25:25) Yeah, and you know, it becomes part of your story in life, you your journey. I mean, it is so thank you for that, Victoria, because you begin to re-experience the things. Like I'm sitting here thinking of when I did do the show when my sister died, you know, and how I ended that. Maybe in real time I'll decide to end it that way again. Maybe not. I'll decide soon. But like all of our scars are human stories. our pieces of us. Little pieces break off and then we grow again and it just, like a tree, grows around that and it does, it becomes a part of you. In a beautiful way also, not in a pain carrying way, in a, well we're gonna talk about resiliency, right? Kasie (26:05) Yeah. Yeah, we are. definitely are. You know, and so there is this cultural message that healing means to move on, but that is not the way that grief works. As Victoria so eloquently explained, you don't move on from grief. You simply move forward with it. Resilience is not having to forget or replace or getting back to any semblance of normalcy. It's taking what is existing. and with it and moving forward. You do have to integrate loss into your life story, just like Chris was talking about. You do have to learn how to experience life alongside your sadness and expanding your emotional capacity, which is the beautiful example of the jars. Your grief doesn't change. Your emotional capacity to manage the grief is what grows and gets better and takes shape. One of my favorite artists in music industry is Brandi Carlile. And she has a ⁓ song called Story. And it says in the song and the lyrics that ⁓ all these lines on my face tell you the story of who I am. And that's essentially what it is, right? Like there are going to be marks. There are going to be Mars on our life where things were not rainbows and sunshines and baby lambs. Victoria (27:36) She happened. Kasie (27:40) and it's still a part of the same story. And at the end, when you stand back, it will still inevitably be a masterpiece, even though there are clouds and shadows. Shadows give us contrast and make things beautiful. Your life doesn't shrink to fit the grief, it literally grows around it like Victoria was saying. So, When we think about resiliency, right? We think about this is about strength or, you know, having all this mental toughness. And I know that on this show, I'm kind of deemed the resiliency queen and all that stuff. But I wouldn't believe this if it wasn't based on science, right? And so this is real neurology neuroscience that goes into this stuff. In grief, resilience looks much quieter, you know? Sometimes being your most resilient self is literally getting out of bed when it's really hard and everything inside of you says stay in bed. Letting yourself cry without embarrassment or shame. Reaching out instead of isolating. Saying this is hard instead of just pretending that you're okay. Chris (29:02) Thank Kasie (29:02) you know, I don't use a lot of like, you know, cool phrases, but it is okay to not be okay. And that is essentially the truth. Yes, Chris has his hand raised. Chris (29:15) Yes, I do. I am. Because. Yeah, I just got permission, you know, we're real time. ⁓ Our boy on the show, Kyle King, the month in review man, he hangs out with us at the end of the month. And yeah, Neil, his his dad just died. ⁓ And man, we love you. We're with you, Kyle, you know. Kasie (29:31) wow. Victoria (29:42) Yeah. Chris (29:43) Um, this is unexpected for him. Uh, they didn't know. Um, it a real tough. So I don't know, Neil, Casey, Victoria, the through a therapist, I group here is going through some grief. guys walk carefully. Okay. Like, yeah. Yeah. I swear that's true Casey. And the thing is, is Kasie (29:48) and Yeah, like the old wives tell where it's like it happens in threes. You know, I don't know how anybody ever came up with that was a random assignment of yours. Chris (30:12) You know, we're modeling in real time here like, you know, another thing, I don't know where we are because I'm, you know, I'm hearing you. Yeah, I know you do. But, you know, it's there. I like to highlight a lot of times on the show when you're going through something like don't do this alone. Right. Like, be a part of a community, man. You got to you got to reach out and be a part of communities because, you know, we're talking about suppressing things and not allowing things to be present. You know, it does what Kasie (30:18) I got us, don't worry. I got us. Yeah. Chris (30:41) I'll give you another one of your phrases. like your phrases, Casey. You know, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right? It, thing is, is man, I mean, I feel so, so grateful that he's willing to share that. know John as well is willing to share that. I'm willing to share that. Like there are people that are listening to this show around the world that have just gone through some loss and we're with you. You're with us. Like that's just, I mean, it's just weaving through the show. I just, I love it. Kasie (30:46) Yeah. Yeah, and so your resilience is actually built through small repeated acts of self-compassion. And that's really what we want to get out here today is that this is not about some magical formula that's going to make it feel better. It's not a band-aid. It's not anything that is just going to make it go away. But if you start small acts of self-compassion and really focus on getting yourself to a place to where you can pull yourself out of the dark places, then you will truly start to see the light of day again. So let's break it down. What does this look like? So what is emotional permission? It's exactly what it says, allowing all emotions without labeling them as being too much. ⁓ Those of you who've tuned into the show, Chris has worked with me, Victoria's worked with me, Neil went to school with me. I can tell you that in my life, I have been labeled as too much on more than one occasion, okay? So, What? Chris (32:20) You know what my motto now is though, right Casey? Victoria (32:23) Thank you. Chris (32:25) My motto Victoria (32:25) Thank you. Chris (32:26) is, I know I'm a little bit extra, but that's better than being lesser than. Kasie (32:30) Okay, I'm just an extra and extraordinary. Like, lose. Victoria (32:31) yeah, no, same, yeah. Chris (32:34) Yeah. Victoria (32:34) Right. Look, Casey. Yeah, I think that's why Casey and I got along so well is we're very, we're very much like very similar people. So I have also been called that. ⁓ Chris (32:37) Casey is a little extra y'all, I gotta tell ya. Kasie (32:39) I am, I'm pretty... Exactly. Yeah, and so you don't want to little yourself, right? Because when you make yourself small, guess what doesn't change? As Victoria's already told us, your grief doesn't change. So if you make yourself small and your grief stays the same, it's going to feel a lot bigger. So have those emotions flow. Now you can enjoy healthy outlets like she was talking about journaling and other things like this. Enjoying healthy outlets is a great way to help give some compassion to yourself, but definitely don't label what you're feeling or experiencing as being too much. Chris (33:27) And I want to say that goes both ways, Casey. Co, real time, Victoria, right? I came to you and I said, hey, I think like Friday, I think like, I don't know, the other day they blend together a little bit for me now, but Monday I'm like, I told you in DW, like, my, you know, my dog's dying, you know, ⁓ you know? So, so I'm telling you all, and the opposite is true to Casey. Kasie (33:30) Mm-hmm. Victoria (33:36) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you told us Tuesday. Chris (33:54) How did you feel about responding to me because some people are terrified. They don't know what to say. They don't know to respond. They don't know what to do. So that goes both ways and I'm curious what your experience was when I did that. Victoria (34:04) When I, when you told me, um, I mean, I felt bad for, I felt bad for you because then I immediately thought about like, what if it was my dog? And then I immediately thought about it has been my dog before the dog I got when I was 10 years old that died when I was in college. And, um, yeah, I mean, I could empathize with you, but it definitely, you know, I feel like we give the same, you know, bull crap of like, you know, I'm so sorry. you know, kind of thing and, you know, let us know if there's anything we can do to help or, you know, anything we can do for you kind of thing. But I mean, you know, sometimes it is enough. Chris (34:42) Yeah. And I think the relationship that we have and the things that we do though, I felt your and DW support in that moment, even though I threw it out there, I went to the next session, but I looked. Victoria (34:49) Yeah. Yeah. Casey, I'm not saying, I'm not kidding you. He threw it out and then literally like, he was saying it as he was turning around and walking away. Like, like it was, there was no, like. Chris (34:57) But it's okay. It goes both ways because you know, I felt you're all support. Like I know that you were supporting me in that moment. And the thing is, is I said, you know, here I go and compartmentalize. And you remember what you said to me? Kasie (35:05) Yeah. Victoria (35:06) Yeah. Yes, I said that's what we do best. Yeah. Chris (35:15) There you go. Like you join. The point is, Casey, I think you join with other people both ways. Kasie (35:22) Yeah. Victoria (35:22) Yeah, but don't Casey doesn't and you might be getting to this Casey. So please shut me up if I'm jumping ahead of you. But like the same way that people say like are afraid to be too much. I even had look, I love how these podcasts line up with my like therapy sessions of that day because my first person this morning lost. They lost their mom when they were 14, but they just lost their dad like a month ago. And ⁓ this client of mine asked me if it was normal to like Kasie (35:26) It's fun. Yeah. Victoria (35:52) not be emotional about it. And this person wasn't really emotional about their mother's laws and wasn't really emotional about their father's laws. And it was kind of the same thing of like they felt like they were being too less. Like they felt like they should be, you know, we talk about shitting on ourselves all the time, but like they felt like they should be emoting more than what they were. they literally taught, we had a whole conversation about how like, Kasie (36:12) Yeah, that's right. Victoria (36:22) their response to it is normal and plus like situation wise, both of their parents were sick. So they kind of had already like started grieving prior to the deaths. But yeah, so like, I guess you're saying like it's not just about being too much, but it's also about like, it doesn't have to be a bad thing if you are too less of a moding. Kasie (36:28) Yeah. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I think that we, you can tell if there's a suppression of feeling. Suppression of feeling, right, is the intentional withdrawal from feeling your feelings, right? That's suppressing feelings. Regulating yourself or learning how to soothe your nervous system without it shutting all the way down or beginning a grief process really before, the actual event happens, sometimes can assist in that process of being able to deal with it ⁓ in a different way than some people. Again, it's nonlinear. It doesn't follow a pattern. It's not a regularly patterned thing. So it's difficult to say, like, if any one person has it or does it correctly, because there's not a correct way to do this whole process. So we do want to look at things like regulation over suppression, which is really just the ability to self soothe and to do something to help regulate your nervous system instead of just shutting it down. We want to look at things like meaning making, you know? And I think, Chris, you shared a little bit about your dog and how when you had some stories that you could tell and you found ways to honor the loss of her. through memory, legacy, or purpose, and even some of the pictures that you shared with us. Chris (38:17) He waddled like a little old lady across the floor. I'm telling you, the cutest thing ever. Kasie (38:19) Yes! Yes, exactly. And we talked a little bit about this before, but connection is important. Grief does tend to isolate us. So healing really happens in the presence of connection. Now, I'm not saying that you have to go out and get into a support group and start trying to make all these friends. It can be with others. It is. Chris (38:47) Grief Share is amazing though, as a program across the country and these United States I have to say. Kasie (38:53) Yeah, it is, but it can be with others. It can be with nature, like get outside, get into nature. It can be spiritually, like in your faith to connect. Chris (39:03) Maybe a bonfire Friday night with friends. You're invited Casey. Kasie (39:07) Something like that, yeah. Thank you. ⁓ So yeah, so I mean, you know, our tendency when we feel low and we feel sad and we feel lonely, our tendencies as human beings is to shy away from connection. It really is. I mean, in a lot of ways. Our brain senses and our ⁓ nervous system senses that we're going through an acutely stressful event. and it wants to start shutting some of those things down. And so all the non-essential functions of our body, it starts to try to hone in on that and shut those down. And so we may feel sleepy, we may feel tired, know, things like that. Chris, you're laughing, what's going on? Can you get closer to your microphone? Chris (40:02) Thank you for keeping me honest. It just strikes me in a way of, you know, that's what happened and watching my dog go through that shutting down process. It's just, you know, so much goes through your head when you're talking and dealing with stuff. And I mean, you're saying that it takes me right back to that moment, you know, Tuesday night. Kasie (40:04) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, and so the next part of grief that I do want to talk through, and we talked about several different layers of grief that can exist, but I want to get through this next section and then kind of wrap us up with some coping tools that actually help us become more resilient. I do. Yeah, but I do want to talk about grief in relationships, you know, it. Chris (40:41) Yeah, because we need talk about resiliency, right? Kasie (40:49) It is something that is prevalently pretty heavy within our society. I hear and see a lot of videos about people going no contact with other people. And there are a lot of reasons for that and I'm not questioning anybody's reason for that. But it seems here recently, it's been more prevalent in my office space that people are going no contact with family members, loved ones, things like that. Have any of you experienced that? Chris (41:19) Wait, I'm confused what you mean. Do you mean like estrangements within relationships, distance, or I'm lost with that. Victoria (41:25) No. Kasie (41:25) Mostly within the family dynamics. Yeah, like the arrangement of family dynamics. Victoria (41:26) Mm-hmm. Chris (41:29) Okay, yeah. Victoria (41:30) Yep. I literally just scheduled a new client for next week. We did a consultation today and they told me that they've been voluntarily no contact with one of their parents for like a decade now or something like that. I can't remember off the of my head. And that is part of one of the things that they would like to discuss in therapy. So. Kasie (41:45) Yeah. Yeah, and so grief is not immune to any subset of the population or any gender specifically. It doesn't affect just individuals, but it can impact relationships. People often grieve differently in relationships. And we know this through John Gottman, if you've never understood any of his work, look it up for couples therapy. Yeah. Chris (42:12) I'm a fan. Kasie (42:14) So, you know, sometimes in relationships what we will often see is that one person may want to talk, the other one may withdraw. Neither is absolutely correct or incorrect, but it can create misunderstandings and distance when two people are grieving in the same relationship. Families may avoid topics that create space and distance and grieving. or they can become overwhelmed by it sometimes. And what we're talking about when we say being resilient in a family relationship is really just allowing space for both grieving styles with some consistent communication of needs and boundaries put in place so that we don't disconnect entirely. Chris (43:00) So you're saying there's no right or wrong way to grieve, is that what I'm hearing? Kasie (43:04) That is correct. Winner. Chris (43:06) Noted! Winner winner, I'm noting that one! Victoria (43:10) Is Kasie (43:11) Yeah. Victoria (43:11) that the phrase that we get like tattooed on our forehead? Kasie (43:15) Yeah, no regurts, not even a letter. Yeah. So we basically have two final points here, but I do want to push this topic of resiliency. And these are things that we actually can get copied and put in to notes relative to the show as well, if you want to see a list of these skills. So coping tools that actually help. And Victoria, you actually did a great job covering a lot of these, but creating rituals. Chris (43:44) ⁓ Hold on, hold on Casey. If we can slow this down just a minute, know, resiliency is a funny word and that's in our title tonight, right? I'm just curious Victoria, when I say the word resiliency, kind of what does that mean to you? Let's think quick. Victoria (44:01) Mm-hmm. I mean, the ability to bounce back, to get back up, to keep going, to not let the man hold you down. I don't know, what cliche phrase do you want me to give you? Chris (44:13) Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, Casey, you've kind of been thinking about this the last 36 hours or whatever, but I mean, know, I say resiliency to you. What's the word association? Just give me one word. Kasie (44:26) Yeah, I would say strong strength. Chris (44:29) Yeah, right. You know, I did that to Casey because she's does she's she's on it with all this material. But what comes to your mind first? mean, resiliency is a really important word that I just wanted to slow us down a little bit on and dial in a little bit, because I feel like there's a lot of sort of misunderstanding about what resiliency is and what it isn't. Right. Like it does not mean you don't hurt. It does not mean you don't cry. It does not mean you freaking, you know, have the bull by the horns. mean, look, I'm doing a show in the middle of grieving. You know, I've stopped a couple of times. You guys have probably caught it in my voice a little bit. Like, you know, that's OK. And I'll freaking tell you, I'm a very resilient person. OK, but I can still be in the moment with emotion. People are afraid of that. And I don't think that people understand Kasie (45:20) Yeah. Chris (45:26) because I'm struggling or I'm hurting or I don't know what to say or I don't know what to do. I don't know what's right. I don't know what's wrong. Am I supposed to laugh? Am I supposed to cry? There's all these questions, all these things. And the thing that I guess I want you to kind of realize as we slow down and hone in a little bit on resiliency, that means when you're knocked down in my book, you get back up. Kasie (45:48) Yeah. Yeah. Get knocked down seven times, seven of eight. Victoria (45:52) Hold on, hold on, I mean, he's, he, I think he meant to say an F word in, in, that phrase. Okay. Kasie (45:57) It was implied. Chris (45:59) Thank you. Kasie (46:00) Yeah. So, and I actually have a really good example of this. Like when I think about resiliency, I think about a sidewalk, right? Just about every sidewalk you walk on is made of very heavy concrete, right? And when concrete covers a surface, it restricts light, it restricts water, at least we hope so, right? If it's good and well-poured concrete. But yet, somehow, just about every sidewalk you walk on, there is a dandelion that grows through the crevice, the one crack, the one hole in the sidewalk. And if you think about resiliency, especially resiliency and grief in the same way, you are buried under something that is heavy, that is big, that is supposed to keep you down. And yet, life finds a way. Chris (46:58) I gotta jump in and pull Neil. Neil, I need you to jump in if you're with us. You gotta tell us about Dr. John King and his dan- not his dandy lines. What was it? Tulips? Is that right? Neil (47:07) daffodils daffodils who's daffodils Chris (47:12) Daffodils, thank you. Hit us with Dr. John King on a show not more than about a month ago with his daffodil. Kasie (47:13) Yeah. Neil (47:20) Yeah, so his story was he was was abused Traumatically like multiple times for many many years and the one thing he had is he had a neighbor that had daffodils and the thing that he would always do is When he would go to school he'd walk by it and when he would see the daffodil start blooming That was a sign that he made it another year And every year that same thing would happen and finally when he got older That was also the trigger when he saw the daffodils that all of his trauma came back, like flooded, all of that stuff. yeah, daffodils were his sign as he dealt with his trauma and his abuse and then his recovery later. That was a big part of his life. Kasie (47:51) Yeah. Hmm. Chris (48:04) Yeah, I'm never gonna see daffodils the same if I can remember tulips versus daffodils by the way. But I love flowers, right? Like there's symbols, there's signs, there's things that you use and Dr. John King used, know, it was just, it was a powerful metaphor when you were talking about dandelion. Kasie (48:09) Yeah. Neil (48:18) And here's an interesting thing about daffodils, they're one of the first flowers that usually bloom in the spring too, so that's early spring that they pop up. Chris (48:25) Love that. Kasie (48:26) Yeah. So let's really ground this into some practical support for those who are listening and those who are watching this or watching this again. So really what we wanna do is create practical approaches that are pretty simplistic in nature that you can do almost immediately, right? Something that helps people when grieving can be to create some type of ritual like lighting a candle out of grief or Victoria (48:41) you Kasie (48:56) ⁓ Write letters, even if you don't send them. Write letters, journal. ⁓ Celebrate intentional anniversaries as a celebration instead of dreading the next day that comes around. ⁓ Celebrate, you know, and sometimes, and please hear this, sometimes it can be the date that an unhealthy relationship ended for you that you can celebrate that date. So sometimes you want to celebrate freedom as well as grieve relationships. Stay connected to your body. I can't stress this enough. You're like a houseplant, like drink plenty of water, right? Get plenty of sunshine, take some walks outside, remove yourself from the four walls you're surrounded by. deeply breathe and do gentle movements. Gentle movement has a lot of benefit when you do it with intention by focusing on the area of the body that you're moving. you're like having any kind of resistance, it can be really beneficial. One quick way to reset your nervous system. And I don't know if you can see this very well on the video, but if you take both of your hands and you push your palms firmly together for a few seconds, It creates tension in your pectoral muscles in the upper part of the chest and you hold that for a few seconds and then you release. The heaviness then subsides after the tension is gone. So doing some types of muscle engagement and tension reduction is almost immediately resetting to your nervous system. Chris (50:35) I gotta know what your facial expressions are saying, Victoria. Victoria (50:36) That felt so good. I felt it. I felt it. I felt it. I wish she was talking about. So maybe Lucas and I can do it whenever we need to regulate ourselves. Kasie (50:40) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes what's helpful Lucas and for those who are unfamiliar Lucas is Victoria's son. Sometimes ⁓ we don't have random kids just hanging out. ⁓ But sometimes what can be helpful to Lucas is if you're feeling upset by something, you can do what I do for my kids, which is blow out the candle. And so I just simply hold up my hand. Chris (50:58) I was going to give the qualifier, but that's crazy. Lucas is here. Victoria (51:00) Yeah. No. Kasie (51:20) and have them blow. And then if they're still kind of onery, say, well, the candle didn't go out and they blow even harder. And eventually they'll blow and focus on the candle and not so much on what's really reminding them it's painful and things like that. So, yeah. Chris (51:36) But you know, it's interesting, you know, I use balloons, blowing up balloons instead of candles, Casey, but you know, it stands to reason to make a quick point, you know, that ⁓ oftentimes we're very, very concerned about grief and loss with kids. But you back me up, Casey and Victoria, if you disagree. I would maintain that because we haven't had layers of experiences with grief, what I call it, I don't have time to go into that, but it's on other episodes, you know, Kasie (51:43) Not at school. Chris (52:07) When adults grieve, we start thinking about all the other losses, all the other things that we have energy left over, right? And so, but the reality of it is children, they don't have that. Your child more than likely is way, way, way more proficient at managing their internal emotional experience at a funeral. Like have faith and trust and confidence in their little emotional systems. Yo, they can handle it. Okay. Cause there's a lot of fear Casey about how Victoria (52:11) Mm-hmm. Kasie (52:12) Yeah. Chris (52:36) That happens. I wrong? ⁓ Victoria (52:38) Well, I mean, already know that kids are more resilient than adults anyways. Kasie (52:43) Kids are far more resilient than adults. Chris (52:44) And why and how do we know that? Victoria (52:47) ⁓ Because kids haven't gone through as much crap in their lives and so to them, you know, they fall down, they get back up, they keep going. Like, I mean, I talk about literally the one time that my kid on the armrest of our couch that has like plywood underneath of it, he like slammed his head into that, had like the biggest goose egg, cried for like five minutes and... with my husband and I sitting right there, then literally went back to doing what he was doing earlier that led him to hitting his head like five seconds later. Kasie (53:23) Yeah, I also think that there kids that have, I would qualify this, kids that have appropriate attachment to one significant adult are far more regulated than most adults. And the reason is, is because they have no reason to believe that anything other than. know, positive things will come from most situations. They aren't deluded like adults are. We're often deluded by experiences, but they're not deluded. They have a childlike faith. A lot of kids that are born into families of faith will have far more faith than their adult parents because they accept things as is. part of concrete operational development. They accept things as is, and they're able to move forward as is. Chris (54:17) you know, you said something that is very important there. It's kind of a different show, a different topic, but weaves into this is that, you know, the way you just sort of threw it in there, I just want to highlight a little bit, you qualified this a little bit. Because yes, children are resilient. Yes, they will get back up when they get knocked down. But when you don't have a connection with, how did you put it, Casey, like a real connection with an adult, there is a bit of a requirement there, right? And I think we need to... Kasie (54:46) Yeah. Chris (54:47) to kind of clarify that qualification just a little bit more. Kasie (54:49) Yeah, and that adult does not have to be in your biological family, but you do need a significant attachment to an adult that cares about you, for sure. So yeah, so you want to find some anchor points in your grief, right? Small, predictable routines that give structure when things feel uncertain. Not to delve into my own story, but when I had my son 15 years ago, which is hard to believe, when I had my son, I had really significant ⁓ postpartum depression. I was really grieving during that process. And we don't really recognize postpartum as a grieving process, but it really is. I mean, it mimics, if not really emulates ⁓ grief and there's a lot of fear associated with it. At least in my case, everybody's case is different. But what I found was if I would take a shower every morning. it was significantly a better day overall than on days that I didn't have that routine or shower. And who would have thought the five minutes I spent, you know, washing my hair, because it wasn't a full shower. If you're a woman, you know what a full shower is. This wasn't a full shower. This was a hair washing shower. so... Victoria (56:14) Okay. Chris (56:16) Wait a minute, as a guy I gotta say I thought people, women would take showers and not wash their hair. I suddenly become confused. Kasie (56:23) Yeah, that happens too. this was early 2000s. This wasn't when, you know, try to let your hair's natural oils take over yet, because that was a little bit later on. Yeah, like that. But just that little bit of routine helped me get through that situation, because then what would happen is I would add another step, right? Then it became shower and brush your teeth. Chris (56:25) That is so much! Victoria (56:34) You mean like this right here? Kasie (56:50) you know, things that we normally would take for granted. So it's not about big grand gestures or steps. It's about small, predictable things that really make you feel human again. Express and don't contain we've talked about this pretty significantly journaling talking to others having some creative outlets and Here is my favorite one and this is something that I want to stress implicitly Throughout this whole discussion about resiliency through grief Give your self permission to experience joy Because you cannot cannot selectively numb Grief is hard and it is painful, but you cannot numb out parts of grief without numbing out significant joy. This one really matters. You are allowed to laugh again. Joy is not the betrayal of whatever it is that you're grieving, whether it be a person, relationship, so on and so forth. Joy is not betrayal. Joy is actually where resiliency lives. When you're able to connect emotionally to something that brings about positivity in your psyche is really where you want to get. Alright, so sometimes grief becomes overwhelming or prolonged in such a way that it can just feel like you're stuck and it doesn't mean that you're broken. What it may mean, and this is what the show is aimed to do, is to inform you. Sometimes you may need additional support and that can be through a therapist or a support group or things like that. And if grief is layered with trauma, you almost always we'll need some additional supports. And trauma is a whole other show, a whole other series, you know? But really what we think about grief, a grief typically is an acutely stressful event that after a few weeks, while it still remains with us, there isn't as significant as a deterioration to life. However, if you feel stuck there, talk to somebody, reach out. get a resource ⁓ and we'll have resources available to you. ⁓ Or if you've had to suppress it for so long. Sometimes we're in situations where we're not able or don't feel comfortable with the expression of self. And when that happens, we can get stuck in our grief pattern. If we stay in the grief pattern for such a long, prolonged period of time without any kind of relief or comfort efforts or measures or any kind of expression, you can get stuck and get recalibrated to that level of, you know, sadness, frustration, irritability, things that come along with the grieving process. You don't have to carry this alone. All right, so that was our walkthrough, ⁓ you know, kind of healing and letting go and some resiliency and grief. So every show we do kind of Chris (1:00:16) Thank Kasie (1:00:18) move into some final thoughts and we have what's called the shrink wrap up. And so before we even get started in that, I just want to reiterate just a couple of points. One, grief does change us. It's inevitable. Grief will change us. There's no way around that. But change doesn't always have to be loss. It doesn't always have to be losing yourself because of the grief that you're experiencing. It simply can mean expanding yourself to be able to be more resilient. You can become more compassionate, more present, and more aware of what truly matters in life. Nothing puts in perspective the things that really mean the most to you without the grief process. Chris (1:01:06) So Casey, it's my fault, not yours. When I kind of prep thing that we're looking at or whatever on our little background, tech-toe gadget-y things, we didn't do the practical questions to the audience. So we're gonna skip that today, but to understand, we've got a thing where we like to ask you practical questions. ⁓ But yeah, the shrink wrap-up. Let's move into that. And what this is is a friendly competition. ⁓ Victoria, would you agree with me that John Pope just loves this part of the show. Kasie (1:01:37) Yes. Victoria (1:01:37) Oh no, this is his favorite part of my hand. I'm that he's not here to participate and kick my butt again. Yeah, and kick my butt again and make sure I end up in last place again. Even though we do not rank, we only have a winner and then everyone else loses. I just feel like sometimes I'm always in the bottom. Chris (1:01:40) I think we're being a little sarcastic. So that's it. Kasie (1:01:49) Ha! Chris (1:01:53) Exactly, there is no rain. So this is a friendly competition where we kind of sum up the show and talk about our wrapping up through a therapist size, sort of what we think about, ⁓ you know, the topic and resiliency and grieving and, ⁓ you know, an awesome real time show where John Pope is in the middle of it. Kyle King is in the middle of it as well as me a little bit. So I'm gonna make a request on this particular shrink wrap up if that's okay. I kinda wanna go last. Kasie (1:02:24) huh. Okay. Neil (1:02:27) I thought he was going to try to play the card and be like, I really need to win, Neil. That's what I thought he was going go for for a second. Victoria (1:02:35) Miss opportunity. I can go first if you want me to. So I'm just going to say that ⁓ grief can look a variety of different ways, whether it's me grieving the eight inches I cut off of my hair or whether it's a relationship or a person or a death or anything in between, but that doesn't lessen the grief that you experience over time. Kasie (1:02:35) Give it to Chris. ⁓ Go for it. Victoria (1:03:04) And that, ⁓ ow, dude, what are you doing? ⁓ And I'm just gonna go back to my jar example of, know, grief does not get smaller as we stay the same size, but we grow around grief, we get bigger, and we learn and we grow and we learn to embrace that everyday grief while the grief stays inside of us. ⁓ And so it's always going to be there. whether it's five years after or 50 years after. Kasie (1:03:37) Thank you Victoria. I guess I'll go next. do have a cheat sheet in front of me. But, cheat sheet. ⁓ No, but grief deserves space and so do you. And really throughout the show we talked a lot about resiliency and how to live as your most resilient self despite what you're experiencing through the grief that you're Chris (1:03:47) You have a what? ⁓ wow, she's prepared, extra prepared. Kasie (1:04:07) having. And so it's really about becoming someone who can hold loss and space for love and joy at the same time. And that's really what it is. It's not trying to say, I have to heal in order to have hope. It's the process of having hope that there will emphatically be healing, but healing doesn't have to look a certain way. It can belong to you. and it can look different for every person. Chris (1:04:40) My turn. Kasie (1:04:42) Your turn, Chris. Chris (1:04:43) All listen, you know, it's a powerful topic for me tonight, obviously, for a lot of reasons. I want to quantify and clarify. Sadie Grace, my sweet baby, is from North Carolina. She is not from West Virginia. But the song was played in my sister's funeral where it talks about, you know, take me home. So the thing is, is grief sucks, you know? ⁓ It's not fun. You know, it's hard and you know, it hurts. it makes us stronger, it makes us who we are. be together with it? don't have to be alone with it. It doesn't own you. and there's things that you can do to be resilient. There's things that you are beyond what you're experiencing. And so understand the power that you have within you when you're dealing with what you're dealing Done. Kasie (1:06:34) I just want to say, Neil, before you start talking, the raw and emotional experience of grief that you're having, Chris, it's a beautiful thing. And I appreciate you joining with us today. Whether you win shrink wrap up or not, it takes a level of... vulnerability to be able to one, come on and do a podcast when you're grieving, but also to talk about the hardness in particularly as a man. So kudos to you. You're being in touch with your feelings and being able to give us some real time example of the grief process. So thank you. Chris (1:07:10) Yeah, I appreciate that. Well, and you know, honestly, that song gets me every time anyway. If I was grieving or not, like I'm a mountaineer, I'm from West Virginia, and I wanted to do that because I did that with my sister. And it just, for me, it's a very powerful experience, you know, when you're kind of, you know, in something. I mean, that song will make me emotional anyway. So, but I appreciate that case. Kasie (1:07:24) Yeah. Victoria (1:07:35) Stop him. she says. Kasie (1:07:44) Take it away, Neil. Who had our moment here? Neil (1:07:48) Honestly with today's conversation I still think Victoria with her jar, the fact that we grow around grief, we always have grief. Every time I think of my dog I still grieve and that's been like five years now. Like it's still hard but I think the growth that Victoria talks about, the emphasis of you grow around your grief even though it's always there, your growth is what matters. so this one's gonna have to go to Victoria. Sorry Chris, I couldn't give it to you but... Chris (1:08:16) Bang it, Victoria, that's no problem! Victoria (1:08:18) Now I'm Kasie (1:08:19) Yeah Victoria (1:08:19) gonna cry. I won! What? I never win. Chris (1:08:24) that's awesome. Victoria, you got it, baby. Hey, listen, this is Through a Therapist Eyes. We're real and genuine conversations happen from real clinical therapists. I appreciate us having this conversation for you all being my friends. I love and appreciate you all. listen, we're going to see you next week. Take care. Be well across the world. Kasie (1:08:25) Yeah.