Welcome to our May & June Month in Review! In this recap episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we look back at a powerful stretch of conversations covering everything from how our canine companions support human grief (Ep. 356) to the bittersweet anxiety parents face during graduation season (Ep. 358). We dive deep into the internet’s self-diagnosis boom (Ep. 357) to untangle the line between normal human struggles and clinical neurodivergence, exploring how to use online mental health content for healthy self-reflection rather than rigid labeling. Finally, we explore the architecture of our relationships by breaking down primary vs. secondary emotions—examining why we weaponize anger when we are actually hurting (Ep. 359)—and outline how to cultivate genuine emotional safety by replacing defensive “horsemen” with validation, repair, and a commitment to handling hard things together (Ep. 360).
Tune in to see the May and June Review Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
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Episode #361 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Hello there. This is Through a Therapistice. You have found us on june the twenty fifth for episode two sixty one. I'm gonna say it's a May month in review, but it's not really. It's a June month in review. It's not really true either. It's actually a May and a June kind of combined big time month in review 'cause we haven't met with Mr. Kyle King for a little bit, well he's here with us tonight. How are you, sir? Kyle (00:24) Doing well, doing well. Looking forward to this. Yeah, it has. I was kinda I kinda missed last month. I mean, I really did. Miss catching up with you guys. Chris (00:27) Been it's been a minute, hasn't it? It Yeah, I know. It's it's strange. We have like ten shows to review. We're not gonna get to them all, but this is the show in the month in review where Mr. Neil Robinson comes out behind the curtains and hangs out with us. How are you, sir? Neil (00:47) I am fantastic. How are you? Chris (00:49) I'm good. I'm in a good mood. I've I've got a day off tomorrow. I'm actually I'm actually excited about that, to be honest with you. So we'll just we'll just leave that for what it is. This is Through a Therapy Size episode three sixty one where you usually get insights and about mental health and substance abuse from your home or car from a panel of therapists. This is just me and these two brilliant men. ⁓ knowing it's not the delivery of therapy service in any way. You gotta click subscribe. I've been spending some time on the website ⁓ on through a therapist eyes dot com to get the links and that type of thing. So, you know, if you get this month in review, you can click the link on this show and you get all of the months in reviews. It's really a good way to go through a bunch of topics, mental health and substance abuse. And I give the the links that we talk about in the show there. So I've been trying to do a better job with that. Look, we try to dispel myths and stereotypes about mental health, disseminate information. Usually when we're a panel. We're actually licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. So your job is to click and subscribe and tell a friend about us. They will listen if you share an episode and send it to them specifically, more than just a random sort of, hey, go check this out. So five stars, all the things with the clicks and likes and things. This is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. So let's do that. ⁓ all of that stuff being said, on the month end reviews, we kind of like to do a quick segment in the beginning called Down the Rabbit Hole with Kyle. This is ⁓ this is where we talk about hopefully something mental health and substance abuse related in some regard. Sometimes there's a question involved, but we kind of banter around what's going on in the world in whatever deep were weird world Kyle comes up with for us. So what do you got, Mr King? The the rabbit hole. Kyle (02:50) Well, I have to tell you, ⁓ I said this to Neil before you jumped on. Has to deal with something I was watching on TV and I I'm I couldn't believe I was sitting there watching it. And it was the Outhouse Races. And I'm like, well, huh? It was literally called the Outhouse Races, you know, in from Saginaw, Michigan. And I'm like, okay, that's interesting. Never seen anything like that before. But it can you imagine what channel it was on? Chris (03:22) I'm gonna say TLC. I don't know. Kyle (03:26) It it was as actually on ESPN. ESPN Ocho. Yes. Yep. So i anyway, i so this is where this rabbit hole is going. So it got me thinking, what are some of the weirdest competitions they've ever shown like on the Ocho? And so and what's that one? Chris (03:31) Really? E S E N Ocho had okay. All right. ⁓ I got I got one for ya. The original OG who started the rabbit holes, Adam turned Neil and I, he literally just sent us last week. What was it called, Neil? Did me get it wrong? Car jujitsu. Car jujitsu, man. They're literally wrestling and fighting in a car and doing jujitsu moves. To see to see who taps. Neil (03:57) That's car jujitsu. Kyle (04:01) Well, I got one better. See, that's a good one. That one that one didn't show up on the list, but what about the mullet championship? Chris (04:16) Mollet? Kyle (04:18) Mullet championship. Yes, you have to have a genuine mullet. You know, you're judged on your style. You can you you compete within the same age group or whatever, but that was one of them. Slipper slippery stairs was another one. The coach stairs in soap and you to try to get to the top. And it's like, okay, there's more here. And I was just amazed at some of the weirdest ones. And it's like one of them was Microsoft Excel World Championship. I'm like, Chris (04:20) All right. Excel? Kyle (04:47) I never knew I Microsoft Excel. Neil (04:50) I I knew that one and my wife made fun of me 'cause she said, You should go do that because I like Excel way too much, according to her. So Kyle (04:57) But it wasn't it was me kind of diving into this as like stein holding. You know what stein holding is, right? You hold ⁓ a stein like like a stein of beer and you're seeing how long you can hold that st straight armed out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Chris (05:03) What a stain is. Hold it. Hold it out. Neil (05:11) They did that they did that at the at the Bavarian Festival in Belmont last year. Did you did you know that, Kyle? Mm-hmm. Yep. Kyle (05:16) Did they did they really? Uh-uh. I did not know that. So these are the kinds of some of the things I got to, you know, going down the rabbit hole with, and I'm like, okay, this is interesting because kind of how it made me think about this, it's like if you look take a look at all of this, and you know, there is some type of connection everybody, every single person can make, no matter what their passion is. You know, if your passion is growing the long hair in the back. Guess what? There's other people that have that same passion. And you should connect with them and build that camaraderie. Same thing with Excel. Every and it it also maybe you realize it's like, you know, everybody has something that they're really good at. And no matter what it is, there is an outlet for them to express that that skill set. And so nobody should take for granted anything that they're doing. And you know, especially let's say Excel, for instance, right? Excel, there is no way in the world I could do it. But somebody else in the world can knows Excel inside and out and probably knows all the keys, shortcuts, and all this other kind of stuff, can do pivot tables and right. Yeah, you probably kick my tail. But the you know, these are the kinds of things and you know, I'm even thinking like around the subject like mullets. And it's like, you know, just kind of be un you it's okay to be unique and okay to be yourself. And it's it's fine because you Chris (06:22) Better boy Neil could probably kick a tail on that. Mm. Kyle (06:42) That's that is something that is unique about yourself. You know, for slippery stairs, it's like you know, when you're trying to g climb up that those soap coated stairs, you know, falling back doesn't necessarily mean a failure. I mean, you're still working trying to climb and climb and climb, you know, the way, you know, to way to success. Even the outhouse races, right? You think about The outhouse raises is literally a group of guys. You they build this outhouse and there's various different ones that they build. But one guy sits it on the pot, literally, and the other guys push him across the goal line. But it but it's working together as a team, you know, ⁓ and it's you know showing how much easier it is to work together. And I I just couldn't believe some of the some of the things that I came across when doing this, you know, talking about authenticity. And there's been studies ⁓ there's actually published stuff around this, believe it or not. you know, talking about community and the camaraderie and the resilience that you build in some of these, you know, connects you know, these connections and these sports that they do and these you know skill sets or whatever. Chris (07:50) I was wondering where you were going with this. I was like, but I love that because that is that is absolutely true. I mean, for instance, I can contribute to being to sharing how I'm actually in or was in the Guinness Book of World Records. Yep, it's true. It was the longest musical the longest consecutive musical march ⁓ for a marching band. So my my my my junior year Kyle (07:52) Ha ha ha ha. Really? For what? See, that's cool. Chris (08:17) We we did this this activities marched around a track. It was like basically all day, all night, however long it was, for to to get the to get the record. Yeah, it was pretty ⁓ spell I mean Guinness Book of World Records. There's there's something out there for everybody. Kyle (08:33) Well, and you know, I I go back to like when we are all growing up, right? You probably you we probably looked at something like an Excel, you know, skill set or whatever. We probably thought, Okay, you know, that's kind of geeky, you know, and we really didn't want to share that part about our lives because we were afraid that, you know, we would get made fun of or whatever the case may be. But as we grow up, I think those the mindset changes in how we perceive those skills and how we you know, perceive the they're not they're not just a skill. There is there's more to it than that. I think anything can be made a sport these days if we try hard enough. But you know, these are the kinds of things now now we have others that have that skill set and we can connect with them and we can share and we can pound around. So like when you're telling me about the Guinness Book World Records, I'm sitting there thinking, that's pretty cool, right? No matter what it's in, how many people can say they're in the Guinness Book World Records. Chris (09:30) Great. And I'll tell ya, you know, for a lot of people, I I I love the the the idea because relationships and developing friendships is something that people really struggle with. And I've started to refer people very often to meetup dot com. There is no reason why you can't have friends or activities and things to do because I'm not sure if they'll catch up some of these ESPN ocho ⁓ activities that you have, but you know, it's kickball and and board games and reading groups and all sorts of things on meetup dot com. Kyle (09:55) Yeah. Chris (09:59) and and other probable types of sites that you can find that you actually get eyeball to eyeball. It's not just an online thing, by the way, too. So yeah, reach out and be be with a group. It's important. It's important. Kyle (10:06) Yeah. Yeah. It it's important to be yourself and it's important to be connected with other people to be yourself. I know, we talk about it all the time in the connectivity, you know, with other people and it's like, you know, that is an important part of life. Chris (10:20) Gotcha. I love that. Down the rabbit hole with Kyle King. He did not disappoint. Neil, he seemed a little bit too excited about that this week, I gotta be honest. Neil (10:30) He did. Kyle (10:30) It kinda was. Neil (10:31) Yeah, he he was all about it. He was he was had to contor control himself 'cause he like, You can't we can't wait till I tell you what it is. So Chris (10:40) Before I got on. Nice. ⁓ well we have a lot to get to this show. So let's go in and kind of review some of the things that we did in May and June. we started I I I guess we had this I know why there wasn't as many episodes. That's why we took time off to work on our project when Neil, you were doing your your thing. So so we had like six or seven episodes. We don't have time talking about all, but ⁓ I was wondering why we were missing some from two months. Yes, yes, yes. ⁓ Neil (10:41) Yeah, yeah, very clear. Because we skipped two weeks 'cause of me. Chris (11:08) So yeah, we we did episode three fifty six, Dogs in Human Grief, how they sense emotions and support healing. And that's because I mean, Kyle, as you know, man, we we in our through a therapistized tribe here, we had a lot of we had a lot of events with your dad and John's dad and my dog and it was like it was a lot of grieving going on. So we we killed the topic of grief. ⁓ but talking about it with your pets and your animals and how important they are in that process, ⁓ you know, was kind of neat. I think we talked about service dogs as well. which is an interesting fun topic that John has expertise on because his wife actually uses one. But let's let's spend a little bit of time on episode three fifty seven neurodivergent or just human? ADHD autism in the internet self diagnosis boom. The three questions. Why are so many people suddenly identifying as neurodivergent online? What is the difference between neurohuman normal human struggle and diagnosable condition? And can internet mental health content ⁓ help people understand themselves or accidentally mislead them? So I'm I'm kind of curious because I know Neil you have heard of this, but I'm wondering if Ad if Kyle, you even ever heard of the word neurodivergent. Is that something you're even familiar with? Kyle (12:28) No. No, matter of fact, I was just looking it up. I have no clue. Chris (12:31) Love that. Okay, good. That's interesting. ⁓ boy, it's it's it's taken like wildfire. Look it up, Kyle and Neil, tell us what what do you what did you remember our conversation as describing what neurodivergent is? Neil (12:48) Well when you break down the neurodivergent, the the you know neurobrain divergent, it kind of goes off the path. So the idea is that your thought process is deviated from what most people would classify as normal. That's that's kind of in my head, that's what I think when I do think of the neurodivergent. And I think I definitely think the idea of normalcy and what's neurodivergent has heavily shifted from what it used to be. I do think the title of like self-diagnosis, I think there's a lot of people who label themselves as neurodiverg divergent when they just I think the title hits it on the head. You know, you're human, you think differently. And then I mean the three of us have completely three different ways to think about any situation. Doesn't make any of us neurodivergent. It just means we process differently, we think differently. And I do think that there's a lot of people that they've tr they try to label Kyle (13:31) Mm-hmm. Neil (13:44) label something. I I don't take care of things because so I'm I'm A D D 'cause I'm always focused. No, I'm a I'm a I'm a what is it? Pathological procrastinator? Like I'm horrible. Doesn't mean I have ADHD or ADD. It just means that's my personality that I have to work on. So I'm a big proponent that I think neurodivergence is I think there's cases that it's a thing, but I think there's a lot of cases where it's just I just have you're you just have a different mindset sometimes. Chris (14:14) Well you know, I yeah, I I I think one of the things we talked about on that episode, Casey and I were really big on like diagnosing is is real. ⁓ there there are real conditions, real issues, and and and oftentimes you you do need a professional to help you discern if that's there or not. Because when it's there and it's not identified, that's a problem. But it's also a problem, Neil, yeah, when you know, there's not something there and you kind of want to create it. Almost. And and Kyle, you know, I I hadn't thought of this during the show, but your your rabbit hole just made me think like I I I I I I wonder how much this is actually people wanting to be a part of a group. You know, because there's lots of ways to be a part of a neurodivergent group, which is just basically we think differently, we process data information differently. I guess you've looked it up by now and solved the definition, right? ⁓ I I wonder how much it's people just want to belong. Kyle (15:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean look, I'm I'm sitting here thinking it's just like ⁓ you I always find these memes a little funny is like when I see these ⁓ things coming as like, Are you you're really your dad's daughter unless you've sat down with him and tried to learn math at the kitchen table and you know the daughter's just dying there crying and stuff like that. I I think about like that, right? Because, you know, for me and you know, I'm very Chris (15:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kyle (15:37) mathematically inclined, and I think about, you know, math in different ways than my daughter. And she learns math completely in a different way than I do. You know, so to to your point, Neil, it's like, you know, they're just is the way that she learns is not the way that I've learned. And the way that she thinks about numbers is not the same way I think about numbers. So she completely learns it differently. And it and it and it's the same way with other things as well. I mean, some people are very visual And when in the way they learn. Some people are very ⁓ you know, they can look at something, read something, and, you know, they got it. And I think, you know, everybody is different that way. And I I that's and to be honest, that's a good thing. ⁓ nobody should learn everything the same way. Chris (16:25) Right. Yeah, it I it's it's really I mean, I don't know, we're gonna talk a little bit about learning disabilities you know, here. ⁓ yeah, we are, because matter of fact I'll do that now. ⁓ you know, when you when you look at what it actually is, like we said, it's a lot of times it's people talking about ADHD dyslexia and autism. But you know, kinda like you're you're talking, Kyle, I think there's a lot that we don't really understand about this area of learning disability, learning disorders. ⁓ Ya you said parent and daughter with your daughter. She struggled with those types of things? Kyle (16:58) She struggled with math for sure. Chris (17:00) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and my my ⁓ son struggled and and and was actually diagnosed with full blown dyslexia and stuff. So I yeah, like I I'm right with you, Kyle, man. I mean we did A B C's and one, two, threes and dents in the kitchen table as a result because it was just she was so frustrating to him. He couldn't he couldn't grasp these things and we we didn't know, you know? And so there very much are different ways that we process things problematically, but Not everybody's ADHD, not everybody is autistic. ⁓ and and the world of learning disabilities we just don't know enough about. I I've I've talked about I feel like I have a learning disability. I've talked about it on the show and during that episode, so you'll have to learn about that by listening to the full episode. But you know when when you have a problem thinking through something, that really is maddening. So wanna validate that, but at the same time, you gotta be careful what you're reading about and what you're seeing, because to your point, Neil, and observation, we start thinking it's neurodiversion if you're introverted or you're distractable, or you mentioned procrastination, just over stimulated and that type of stuff. Like it's you know, it's it it's it gets way too overused, way too overcooked. Kyle (18:25) Well and I also think, you know, I can also see where that leads to behavioral channel challenges when especially, you know, not being able to comprehend something the same way somebody else does. Obviously, you know, that could create, you know, different types of behavior, you know, amongst whoever they're with. And I'll give you an example and you know, I had back in the day until I used to do a I was an after school teacher, you know, when I was in college, you know, believe it or not. So what I would do is I'd go to classes and I'd come and come back to you know go to one of the local elementary schools and that we would, you know, teach these kids, you know, keep them for after school. And I'll never forget his kid's name was Josh, but ⁓ I'll never forget him. But ⁓ the reason why is because he had a he the way he learned was completely different than the way other kids learned. And so he'd always act out and he'd always find himself in the so-called principal's office. And I got him one year and you know it was just a constant, you know, it seemed like a constant battle. So I changed my perspective on how to relate to him. And I gave him a simple task. I said, okay, here's a Ziploc bag. I'm gonna give you three fuzzy balls in it. I said, you I want you to hold on to these for me. I said, now, if you decide that you're going to behave a certain way, I'm gonna take one. And I I said after three you have to go to the principals. And he so the first day I get I took one. Wasn't too much longer, I had to take the second one. Before he could take the third one, he looked at me, he said, I don't want to play this game anymore. So this is a rough game. But you know, it got to the point where it a couple of days he actually started thinking differently in how he behaved and how he learned. So Chris (20:06) Mm. This is a rough game. Kyle (20:23) To the point where he'd just come sit beside me and just start talking. And he he knew that I could re you know, he knew I could carry on a conversation with him and we would just talk about any and every everything. He wasn't acting out anymore because, you know, he didn't feel like he didn't have any friends because he couldn't learn the r the same way that they did or anything like that. And so it totally changed his perspective, even as a little kid. Chris (20:45) Neil, I think this kid was really interested in the slippery stairs and the ⁓ car jujitsu conversations. Kyle (20:49) Ha ha. So yeah. Anyway, it yeah, I can see of all ages, you know, how how it affects people. Chris (21:00) Getcha. Yeah, let me do a segment on the shows. We do a segment on practical questions where the therapists in the the the episode we take a turn and talk to you through the screen. So I decided to kind of bring that into the month and review with practical questions to you on the episode ⁓ three fifty seven Neurodivergent or Just Human? So I want to ask you, the listener, could it be When you think of yourself as neurodivergent or thinking differently, that stress or burnout or even the emotion of the day, which factors around, or trauma, or lifestyle factors, cannot explain some of your symptoms versus really putting yourself in a category of being neurodivergent. I would I would ask you to think about that, just like What general speaking am I dealing with now that might be influencing the way that I'm experiencing things or thinking about things? Could it be stress, trauma, burnout, or something about your behavior that might be creating this experience for you? Use that as a filter and and see if that changes your understanding of how you're thinking through things. So I think where we landed in talking about this stuff was, you know. Looking at what does it really look like to be to follow through with that question, I just encourage people to do to to to really actually kind of work with in a healthy way. So what is what is healthy exploration of the way you think look like? I love the word curiosity. Get curious about things, get curious about how you're processing things. And then re you know, reflect. ⁓ I think if you're gonna think about your own experience with neurodiversion, you really gotta add some professional in the mix, whether it's your family doctor or you know, a therapist or whatnot, and then being open to multiple possible explanations. Neil, you you Brent brought up several things, you know, that might explain with procrastination when we've talked about that on the show before. Can you allow yourself to be open and explore that to understand what is this about me that this does? And I'm not talking to you, Neil, because I know you do, ⁓ we talk about it. But the goal is not do I fit this label perfectly? It's what helps me function, what helps me connect, what helps me live more effectively than the way that I'm currently processing data. What do you think, Neil? How do we do? What ⁓ how does that summarize things? Neil (23:35) I think that that hits hits it on the head, I think. And I and I think it's it's super important for people just to reflect. And I I think having a professional look at it, look at those things and discuss it with you, I think is really really important. 'Cause I know there's a lot of times with something that's I don't want to deal with this. I'm just gonna say I'm this or this. And I think there's a lot of times people just need to realize that life is hard and sometimes you do have to put the effort into change your thought processes or Deal with some things. Now there are people that struggle. I mean Victoria's a great example with her ADHD and those things. We know the difference when she's medicated versus not medicated. But that was also clinically diagnosed. Chris (24:12) Did did you say which episode she's medicated to which one she's not? Is that what said? Neil (24:17) No, no, we see we see her. I mean, you've seen it when she didn't have that medication for a while for whatever the re I don't remember the reason, but she's like, Well, the game was can we find out where she's now get her medication? And I believe there was that. So so just keep that in mind. In something like this, if you struggle, talk to professionals, not to your friends. Don't go to, you know, Doctor Google, I think we've said before. Don't go to Doctor Chat GPT. Yeah, just just talk to someone. Chris (24:22) Yeah. Yes. Kyle (24:39) Come to me. Chris (24:42) You can do it, Kyle. You can do it. Yeah, ChatGPT meal. That's something that I'm starting to become a little bit more concerned about in how people are going into self-diagnosing with AI. It does really good with pattern recognition, but there's a lot of nuance, you know, when it comes to the idea of do I have something or or or do I not. All right, let's move along in us having talked about. Episode three fifty eight. We're not gonna talk about it on the review, just don't have time. But three fifty eight was they graduated, Why Am I So Anxious? The parent side of letting go. And man, I you know, I I really feel like that was a a very applicable show to a lot of us dealing with it this time of the year when our little kiddos are graduating and you know, we're dealing with this big major change. I mean, in some way we were talking about, you know, before the mics came on, guys, you know. ⁓ the the greatest change, you know, in empty nesting, Kyle, right? Like, you know, that's the kids can move along, move out, and move on, and that leaves us feeling so overwhelmed and anxious. ⁓ so that was that was a good conversation and timed ⁓ appropriately, I think, for what's going on in the world with high school and college graduations. So but the second show spent a little bit of time on is episode three fifty nine. Why do we get angry when we're actually hurt? The emotion behind the emotion And this was a good conversation about primary and secondary emotions, right? where we have ⁓ well we'll get into it, but the th the three questions have you ever reacted with anger when you were actually feeling hurt? Second, what emotions do you tend to show and which emotions do you tend to hide? And then how would your relationship change if people saw what you were truly feeling underneath? And and I think I I'd like to ask you Kyle, like which ones you tend to show and which ones you tend to hide because I think you're pretty open and and and on point with processing things as I've gotten to know ya. So I'm curious how you how you deal with that. Kyle (26:52) No. For me, you know, I I take I guess at the the old concept count to ten, right? I take a moment to try to reflect before I say anything. And you know, that's it does because you know, just because I get hurt doesn't necessarily mean I want to hurt somebody in response. ⁓ and I think that's for me, that's an important part of how I deal with things. It's like two wrongs don't make a right. ⁓ you know, one of the things that I always try to do, especially when somebody listen you comes to me with some type of negativity, I always ask like to try to ask a question and let's let's start a conversation. It's like maybe maybe there maybe I did do something that you know call created this, you know, situation. But I don't know that. But that's not how they approached it. But so let's let's let's ask a question. That's just me and that's the way I handle it because I w I won't I want reflection. Okay, if I know I'm not perfect. I know I can you know I know I can you know say something and somebody take it the wrong way and I don't ever mean it that way. You know that. ⁓ you know, I try to be you know I don't know a stranger, that's for sure. ⁓ but I mean I can talk to anybody. But you know Chris (28:13) Yeah, that is very true. This dude is chatting, you know, he's chat you up side down one the other. Kyle (28:21) ⁓ so you know, that's for me. It's it's it's the way I handle things. And yeah, I know not everybody thinks that, you know, some people will immediately put defensive walls up, some people will immediately go in attack mode. ⁓ you know, and I honestly, you know, I I've had to grow with that. It's not something that I probably started out with. I think in my younger years I probably did that. Somebody comes attack me, I'm going to attack them. That's probably that's probably, you know, my younger years, that's how I handled it. Now it's like, yeah, look, there's a reason. Let's talk about it. And, you know, because there is a lot of you know, there is a lot of hate in this world. Let's just be honest. And I want to make sure, okay, let's have an open and honest conversation. Let's see, let's get down to the why you feel this way. What did I do? Chris (29:10) what do you tend to hide? Cause I'm I'm asking you specifically that because I mean recently you were very gracious in sharing with us your hard ⁓ experiences with your dad dying and you know and and you were really forthright and out front and because I I think that a lot of people struggle with this particular issue which is why I enjoyed doing this show and setting it up in tandem with the other ones. Kyle (29:12) Hide? Chris (29:37) it worked at some foundational things. Why do we get angry when we're actually hurt? So many people are misleading and hiding what they're experiencing. I don't I I know you do because you're psychologically human. Right? But I don't see that in you as much. I I experience you as being I mean Neil you as well to be honest with you. And we're pretty genuine on this show, but I was just kind of curious how the hiding part works for Kyle (29:42) Yeah. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I you know, for me, I I guess I can I guess I compartmentalize a lot. ⁓ you know, I can push things to the side and you know, I can reflect on them, you know, during quiet times like there is a ever is a quiet time. ⁓ you know, there's very few people that you know, that I can share things with, you know, my wife for one. you know, some people I hide things from just because I not necessarily that I don't I'll you know There's could be things I hide because I know other people will openly share them that I don't necessarily care to have shared. Or that I don't want to I don't want them to you know, I don't want them to think that, you know, hey, look, something is inherently upsetting and ⁓ you know or and th you know, they need to constantly ask me about it and things like that. So yeah, there there I think it depends on the situation. I think with my wife, I think I'm pretty open and you know, open with her. ⁓ but you know, there yeah, there there's things I hide it. It I I'll be honest if there's Chris (31:06) I hear you I think I hear you struggling a little bit because it isn't seemingly very strong for you to hide the emotions that you feel. I mean you like I said you're pretty forthright and genuine. And but and but at the same time, I think there's so much of our experience and the and the key word is vulnerable. Right? I I think the the key word is is being able to find a way to to enter into a vulnerability with other people. Kyle (31:18) Yeah. Yes. Chris (31:36) that that that that leads us to shield, to minimize, to edge away from, or even straight up avoid, you know, dealing with people. And we all do it, but I think we have a hard time really identifying ⁓ you know when we're doing that. Because if I'm angry, I'm letting you know that I'm angry, but I'm suggesting there's stuff underneath that. That oftentimes, and here's the key, we're not even aware of. Right? We're not even really aware of. Kyle (31:59) yeah. There could be. Chris (32:06) So Neil, I'm curious if if that go ahead, Kyle, yeah. Kyle (32:06) Yeah, I mean no, I was gonna say, I mean, there there's absolutely I mean I g and just even dealing with my you know, the recent loss of my fa in my family. I mean, Chris, I can't even tell you. I mean there there's there's memories that come up that for no obvious reasons, ⁓ other than like a smell or a sound or something like that that reminds me, right? And I didn't even realize that that was anything I had to deal with, right? Chris (32:36) Right. This is this is the difference in why we looked at this. It's a foundational, fundamental thing about psychology and mental health, and it's primary and secondary emotions. You know, most people think that we're in a state of emotion and we experience, you know, one thing at a time. And honestly, most of the people I have in my therapy office can't get beyond I feel happy, I feel mad, I feel sad, or I feel glad. Happy, mad, sad, glad. Those are the primary colors. Neil, we're not going back to talk about the primary colors again though, are we? Neil (33:07) The three primary colours. Chris (33:12) N Kyle, they picked on me because I don't know the primary colours and I've screwed it all up. I think it's I think it's I think it's red and and yellow and another one. I don't know. Dang. Neil (33:12) Cow. Chris (33:26) Because just like colors, these things come in layers. For example, the visible emotion that you might have is anger, but the color that you're not seeing underneath that is hurt. Or the visible emotion that we often show people like anger is irritability or agitation. When really a lot of times it might be the fear that's underneath of that. You know, the primary emotion comes immediately and we get critical because we see that. you could do something better or differently. And the hidden emotion is I'm rejecting what you're doing and I don't want to be direct about that. Right? It's primary emotions, happy, mad, sad, glad, right? Follow up with what's really going on underneath the situation. And so when you're in secondary emotions, this is where you get the defensiveness, maybe even neoprocrastination or whatnot, but you know the disappointment or shame is a big one. That drives a lot of what we show the world, but underneath what we show the world is shame-based feelings or feeling rejected. So you see how that works? I mean there's there's there's emotions and then there's the emotions that support what it is that we're behaving like. And that gets really murky, Kyle. I don't think people really understand themselves to a certain extent. Kyle (34:44) I'd agree. I'd agree. I mean, it it's funny. I mean, when you you're talking about colors and my thought process goes immediately to, you know, how people tie colors into different emotions and stuff like that. Blue, sad, you know, those kinds of things. And ⁓ you know, I think you know, there's a yeah, I kinda go back, I'm a big b big bang theory, you know, person. And ⁓ it makes me think of like Sheldon. Every time every emotion that he went through, he wore a different color shirt. Chris (34:57) Yeah. Kyle (35:14) And that was the emotion he was feeling for that day. ⁓ Supposedly. So like, you know, if he's anxious, he's wearing a certain color shirt. And if he's but no, I I to I totally agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Of course he's all he's typically angry, right? But ⁓ no, I I can completely understand what you're saying. And y you're right. I mean, there is a lot of murkiness when it comes to that. I mean, we show one thing, but we were truly feeling something else. And then Chris (35:16) is that fair? Is that true, huh? Interesting. I remember him in red a lot, actually. Yeah. Kyle (35:43) We take it, you know, what can come across as anger is just some deep rooted emotion that we're trying to can you know, to deal with. Chris (35:53) Neil, do you know how many times in therapy I ask a a client, you know, w what are you feeling? And that they respond with like, I don't know, or nothing really. Do you think that ever happens? Neil (36:09) I'm sure all the time. I mean, you have a lot of people who who don't really going back to the statement, if if they have these reactions and the reactions are a culmination of of your primary emotions, no one knows if you didn't know that purple is from red and blue, you can't distinguish it. You're not gonna take that color, you can't separate it. So the emotions, they're just seeing the color purple, that anger, not knowing that it's because of fear and sadness, right? They don't know though. So they just see this one piece and they're seeing what has been mixed over time. And you can't once again, you can't just separate it out. You have to go back and say, what got me to this color purple? Right. Going back to the root of things. And so I think that's the part that when people start looking at why do I have these problems? Why does it that when my spouse does this, I just go off the handle. Right? What what what's been going on for so long? What have I been mixing together for so long to get to this point? And I think if people can take us a moment to try to look at that piece, it it makes it better for them because they can maybe slowly start unraveling or going back to figure out, ⁓ well, this happened to me early in my marriage, or a previous, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend did this to me, or my parents did like you but you have to make that time. And I'm gonna say when you're in that secondary emotion, you're not gonna rationalize and figure out what happened to it. You gotta get past the that emotion so you can then go back and say, What the heck just happened? Why does this skip atomic? What's going on with this? Right. And so I think that's the important part to people to understand. Chris (37:49) It's so layered. Kyle (37:49) It's almost like a guilt by guilt by association in some regards. I mean to your example, Neil. It was like, Hey, you're guilty because I've experienced this in the past. Neil (37:59) Mm-hmm. Exactly. And and whoever's with you now gets the brunt of that because they're the ones that are getting everything that comes with it. Chris (38:06) And it's so dynamic. Like I I don't have an answer to this question. What I want to ask you guys both to make a guess. How many emotions, if you think of all the emotion words, how many emotions do you think we can experience at the same time? Right? Satisfied, ⁓ joyful, gleeful, scared, tepid, timid, curious, overwhelmed, anxious, angry. I mean, there's so many ⁓ emotion words if you think of them. Kyle (38:28) Overwhelmed. Chris (38:37) Right? How many can you experience at the same time? Kyle (38:43) Good question. Never thought about it. Never never tried to, you know, guess add everything up at one time. Chris (38:50) Obviously it'd be more than one. We just said emotions combined. Kyle (38:52) Sure. Right. But is it two, three, four, five? Don't know. Chris (38:59) What do you think, Neil? Single digits or double digits? Or triple digits. Neil (39:06) I mean, best case you're looking in, I would say high single digits if you get a lot of stuff going on, but I feel like the body can't take more than that if it even gets to that point. Because because you're because of the way your emotions trigger your body sometimes, and sometimes your body triggers your your emotions, the your body trying to produce the chemicals and hormones that your emotions are triggering, or vice versa. Like imagine trying to Chris (39:17) Yeah. Neil (39:32) I mean it's like doing bicep curls and squats and you know tricep dips and you know lunges and you know deadlifts like all at the same time. Right. You can do squats in there too. Like you it's just it's you your body just it's just one of those things that unless you live in that constant state of those emotions, your body can't handle it, you know. To me, that that's my take on it. So I'm looking at religion on the high side ⁓ maybe five-ish. Chris (39:42) Not doing squats. No squats. Neil (40:02) If you're really going through some stuff you might get high, you know, high single digits. If you get above that, you got some major issues you gotta deal with quick. So Chris (40:11) I'm gonna tell you, in in in a in a situation like we were talking about with grieving, if if we extend the time a little bit, maybe at the same time, meaning over a period of time in an hour, certainly you can experience just many tens pus approaching fifty to a hundred. ⁓ but you're right, Neil, interestingly, at the same instant, ⁓ I I I think you can combine five or six colors together and and and Neil (40:29) yeah. Chris (40:41) come up with the opaque y yellow, you know, that you you wouldn't really think about as a color. But y I mean when you're going on your first date, you feel a lot of stuff all at the same time. Easily curious, easily awkward, you know, ⁓ maybe excited and turned on, you know, y you you you get awk you know, f feeling sheepish and shy. You know, you're you're going through all of the things at the same time on a situation like the first date. Neil (41:08) That's that's what Chris went through on a speed dating thing. He's just trying to remember those. Chris (41:12) No, she was cool, man. She worked out just fine. I felt calm talking to her. She's still around too. No, it's it's just it's it is. It's it's layered. I really want people to think like in terms of what is my experience and how am I processing that experience. So a practical question here in in this episode of three fifty eight they griev, I'm sorry, why do I get angry when I'm actually hurt? Episode 359, the practical question I have is: do you tend to express vulnerability? Because that's where a lot of the experience kind of comes from, where we hide things even from ourselves. You might not realize that you're vulnerable, you know, when you're in a moment. You know, the first date scenario really is terrifying. So much going on at the same time, so multi-layered. So, do you express that vulnerability? Or do you protect yourself from it in addition to protecting other yourself from other people? There's a lot that goes around in the world and the swirl when you're looking at vulnerability. So how do you handle that? Practical question. EFT and emotional safety, I feel like guys, is where I land with this kind of thing. I mean, you know, I I don't know if you realize yet, Kyle, as much as Neil sure does, that I land on emotion focused therapy, EFT a lot, because to me it's really all about this in the sweet spot. I mean, you use it a lot with marital counseling and stuff, but I do it a lot with individually as well because, you know, the primary emotions that we express, the vulnerability is needed in order to to to internally process your emotion and then the defensive reactions hopefully decrease because in emotion focused therapy when we're relating to other people, God tell you, people are so defensive. They will hide and protect and minimize you know, even from themselves, let alone relating to other people, which is how we move into our next show of episode three sixty, right? Emotional, ⁓ emotional safety, how trust and vulnerability and connection change relationships. So we're going there next, but do you see how emotional focused therapy like really getting into like What is the reality of what I'm experiencing and how do I share that? And when you're in a close and tight relationship, Kyle, like you said, you're pretty open with her at home. You know, I mean that's that's an important, that's an important thing to be able to have. And it's how sad that some people don't even have that with their their partner. Kyle (43:48) Yeah. Yep. No, totally agree. Chris (43:50) Yeah. Too much stuff flying around and too much isolation ⁓ kinda coming up, which actually, Neil, I don't think we talked much about that, did we? That might be extra content that we should have talked about in the way of isolation. We didn't talk about that at all, did we? Neil (44:09) I don't remember talking about isolation. Chris (44:11) Yeah. I I think that's that's actually the the ultimate result of you know not connecting and not letting people know the secondary emotions and all the different colors that we've got on. You end up being more alone. Which is generally not good when we're trying to be alone. ⁓ three questions on episode three sixty, the last of the shows that we'll spend a little bit of time on here today. Three questions. What makes you feel emotionally safe with another person? And who in your life allows you to be fully yourself without fear of judgment? If you have somebody in your life that allows you to be fully yourself without fear of judgment. And then third, how do people unintentionally create emotional danger in relationships? That's an intriguing question. What do you think, you two, on the third one? How do people unintentionally create emotional danger in relationships? Kyle (45:17) Mm. By not being open. Chris (45:22) By being closed, you mean? Kyle (45:24) Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I mean, because if you're holding too much in, i i it's going to come out eventually. Yeah, in some shape, form, or fashion. Whatever's being held in, it it's just it's bound to come out. Chris (45:37) I think you're on to something in the sense that I mean you you know your spouse, right? You you you you you get to know them over the years and y you know their mannerisms and you know something's up. Neil, you're looking at Alicia there the other day and she's got that whirl in her nose and the twinkle in her in her ears and you know what that is and you ask her, ⁓ hey baby, you know, how how you doing? Is ever is everything okay? What do you think they say to us, our spouse? Yeah, no, I'm fine. Yeah, I know you're not you know why do we do that? Why do we claim stability and being fine? Because you're right, Kyle, when you're not sharing that, how does that create emotional danger? What a landmind it could be. Kyle (46:27) Yeah. Totally agree. I mean, look, I mean, just to your point, you know, to what you said about Neil, I can tell when she's had a stressful day, let's put it that way, at work. And I I know it because the way her mannerisms is, some of the way she, you know, says th certain things, you know, just taking you know heavy breaths or whatever the case might be. That's right. But that that's why I say, Okay, what's wrong? What's going on? You okay? You can just Chris (46:47) That's when he goes golfing Neil. Then he goes golfing. Kyle (46:57) Trying to get the conversation going and then she'll open she typically opens up and shares, but you know, it it does I because when when she's short with me, I that's when I know something's wrong. I'm like, that's not you. That is not you. What is going on? What's wrong? What's happening? Chris (47:10) That's a giveaway. Yeah, and honestly when you get the the and and it's it's much common. I mean, in a healthy relationship, that is a good sign that you can have those conversations. And we'll talk about that in reviewing this show 'cause it's super crucial important. But I I I I I think it's fair to say, I know I'm a little bit jaded through a therapist eyes. I see people that are struggling more in relationships than are than are th flourishing. And y you know, couples will stay with the I'm fine response, Kyle. They they will not go further than that. It doesn't feel safe, or they're not comfortable with the vulnerability, or they're really not aware. I I've I've had that myself sometimes in my married life. Should should should say, What's up with you, man? Why you why you you know why are you so crabby or why you in a mood? And I'm like, I mean, first of all, come at me that way. Like, I don't think I'm in a mood. But then 20 minutes later I'm kind of looking at it, I'm like What the kids are driving me a little bit more nutty. I am a little bit more irritable. You know what? I didn't realize it, but I walked in here with stuff on my mind. She's right. You know? So we're ignorant too. We're not aware. We don't dial in and really tune in, yet we throw it around the house. Kyle (48:33) I think we ⁓ yeah, I think i let's just take work as an example, right? We can have a very stressful day at work, but we're trying to maintain our composure at work. But then once we get home, that little mask comes off. And inadvertently it just does come out, you know, but towards the wrong people, not towards the people that create caused the stressful situations that at work who need to who need to hear it. So yeah. Chris (48:57) Who need the fury? Yeah. What is emotional safety? Most people understand physical safety. I mean, that's not hard to figure out, but you know, it is an overused term. What does it really mean to be emotionally safe? I don't think people understand that as much. And it really revolves around that what you're thinking, feeling, experiencing matters to other people. That makes you feel safe when your experience matters and your feelings matter. that that stuff won't be weaponized. I can't tell ya how many times I've heard people say if I tell you what I'm talking about in therapy or if I tell my my my husband what I'm thinking, then it'll come back up. It'll be used against me. That is an irrationalization for in withholding information like all the time. ⁓ that mistakes do not threaten connection. You know, that's safe when when you're not gonna be weaponized, when you matter and your experience matters and y you know you're you're you're you can make mistakes and that be okay. That's really I mean, you get in that space. And you know it when you're in it because you feel I mean, it feels wonderful when you actually really feel safe with another person. People become more open, more honest, more connected, you know. Without it, you get to all of the crap, all of the hardship, the pain comes with the defensiveness and you know, avoidance and Being emotionally reactive. It's like, you know, we talk about emotion focused therapy, we'll talk in a minute here. I think more about like, you know, it's just it's so scary that you act badly. So if people don't feel safe enough to say I'm hurt, they'll instead say an accusatory statement like you never listen to me. I hear people saying that in marriage counseling all the time. You don't listen. You don't talk to me well. We don't communicate well. All of those statements are just you're not comfortable in the moment laying out your life to this person, it feels like. It's so scary. And you get the the yucky pricklies as a result. Right? It's it is is communication hard or is managing your emotions while you communicate hard? Kyle (51:24) Probably both. Chris (51:27) Well, I think if your emotions are managed, I don't think communication's actually that hard. To be honest with you. I say that to couples all the time in in couples counseling, Kyle. I'm like, I don't think you have a communication issue and their heads spit. I love the reactions. Eyes twirl and they're like, What are you just trying to say? And I'll follow that up by saying, Look, I mean, you've had all kinds of hard communications in your life together, you know? You've planned a wedding. You you've talked about holidays. You've talked about blending your family culture with your spouse's family culture and created your own family's rituals around Easter and Christmas and birthdays. Those are all involved very tricky communications. And they've and you've done that. And they're like, yeah, yeah, we have. And I said, Well when you get all ticked off and emotional and upset or vulnerable in some way, you can't now talk about whether you're gonna have coke or Pepsi at the grocery store. Because you're too wired. You're too upset. You two in your head. And now it it almost feels virtually impossible. What do you think? Let me pull you in, Neil, about emotional safety, what fosters it and how we kind of try to to have it and create it and and use it. Neil (52:44) I think emotional safety and I based on the conversation you can talk about is you you almost have to kind of go back to what you said earlier, you you have to be you have to put your trust in someone else. So it's almost like you really have to open up for that side of it and you have to feel like that person you you have to build to it. Emotional safety is not something you get immediately for with anyone. There's there is no I just met Chris and now he's my he's my safe space. No, you're you're not gonna get that. Emotional safety is a long term building, you know. My r and my wife and I have talked about this recently because we've gone through with her aunt passing away. I've been really busy with work and some other stuff. There's been a lot of change last week and and we had a really great breakthrough this last weekend because we got to just hang out. I was off last Friday. You talk about being off this Friday. I was off last Friday. We s hung out together. Over the weekend it's like, Do I need to go? She's like, I feel like I need to go to Hickory to see my mom like why? Chris (53:12) Right. Neil (53:40) We don't really need to. Her sisters up there. Like we actually we had no plans this weekend. We got to just enjoy each other's company for a weekend. We talked, we opened up, we and one thing she talked about was our life now and our relationship now, there is a huge growth. There's a huge safety net in with us now than even two, three, four, five years ago, because we built this emotional safety that I literally could tell my wife probably anything. You know, and and there'd be no issues with it. So, but that's once again, that's twenty some ideas of marriage that we've built up with that piece. And that's her and I both being vulnerable, her and I both having our issues and things that we've had to work through, her and I both, it's both of us that built this emotional safety. So you can't come in and be like, you're my safe space and then expect the other person to think you're their safe space. It doesn't work that way. Sometimes it doesn't work to where you feel really comfortable with with that person, but they might not feel comfortable with you. And I think you have to be okay with that unless you can put the effort in to build their trust. Chris (54:42) I think as usual you're absolutely on point, but you know, I'm listening to you, Neil and Kyle. I was thinking about something that actually is a little bit of the opposite is true too. You know, there's intense emotional experiences that you'll get that are all involved and that boom develop really deep and close relationships like really fast. Have you had these life experiences where maybe you're at a mission trip or you've had some trauma event, or like I like the reality show Survivor. These people have only known each other for ten days, but the experience is so intense that they're sharing vulnerably very deep things, Neil, about themselves. So it occurs to me the opposite can be true. And the key really is being able to reveal the things that are hard to reveal. And when you do that, boom. Kyle (55:29) Yeah. Well and I guess in Well, and I guess in that situ in that kind of scenario, I mean, you think about it, you you have to trust somebody in that kind of like let's say trauma type of sni situation. You have to trust them almost immediately in that kind of situation. And to to have your back and to help you out or whatever the case may be. So I guess I yeah, I can see that bond being built really quickly in that kind scenario. Chris (55:48) Right. Exactly. Right. I mean it's a phenomenon. It's it's absolutely thing. So I think Neil there is the slow cook, which is way more normal. ⁓ you know, I I never really got together with my neighbor, you know, for a while. ⁓ I lived here for ten years and it was like, Hey, how you doing? you know, whatever. I knew his kid's name and his wife and that he's he's a silly ⁓ Miami Dolphins fan in Nebraska for crying out loud, this guy. But then things happened in life and I started sharing a lot more and my vulnerability with him actually increased tremendously. And you know some crazy thing happened? He reciprocated that. Now he's taken me to a medical procedure that I'm having tomorrow. Right? I mean that that relationship developed over you know ten years, where ten years it was in a slow cook. Right? So yeah, you know, it's it's it it can happen fast in weird situations, Neil. But overridingly typically you're right in the slow the slow cook. Neil (56:57) And and I think it goes back to that same thing. It just just to be cautious of, like I said, just 'cause you have an instant connection with someone doesn't mean they have that. My wife had a friend that she was very like soul sisters, I'll tell her anything and blah blah blah. And then it's like, but she doesn't seem to get that reciprocation, right? So there's always that thing. Just 'cause you feel connected, like you said, you might be the one to put the effort in, but sometimes the other person has to has to make that extra thing. And so Chris (57:05) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Neil (57:21) I I do wholehearted agree. There are people that you connect with. one of my good buddies, I w he we I met him at the shortest job I ever had. If we'd looked close, we probably hung out more. But we've gotten become really, really close and we're really, really good friends now, just because that's what we've built out. We've purposely done that one. So but you have to want to get to that emotional safety. You're gonna have to be comfortable with them. You're gonna have to want to be forgiving to them, forgiving to yourself. Like, I mean There's a lot of stuff when it comes to emotional safety that there's a lot of grace and forgiveness you have to give to yourself and to that other person and and not be not be overwhelmed with negativity and those things. I feel like negativity is like a killer of emotional safety. Like if you if you think like Chris (58:05) It is, Neil. That's where I was going next. And what really kills this is negativity for sure. Specifically, Gottman in his circles talks about the four horsemen. Criticisms crush people's spirit. Contempt attacks them at the core of who they are. Defensiveness shuts things down and destroys feeling safe, as does stonewalling, which is just wildly shutting down. You do any one of these things and it's thrown back and forth in marriages tremendously, that just crushes any sense of safety that you might develop. Criticisms, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling are the defined four horsemen, and it isn't just in marriage, it's in relationships kind of otherwise. Right? So the practical question here I have to get you, the listener, thinking. Is when someone becomes vulnerable with you, such that I did with my neighbor, curious, think about those situations. Somebody comes to you and you're vulnerable with you, do you try to understand them or maybe even correct them? Now, you might think pretty quickly, yeah, I I wanna I wanna understand them. But not so fast. How many people are parents listening to their children? Say how they're feeling or what they did or what they are fearful of in making friends and that you actually go in to make corrective action instead of when the kid becomes vulnerable with you, do you try to understand where your kid is? I think we struggle with that a lot more than what we think that we do. What say you guys? Kyle (59:55) 100%. I would say so. Because we're we're in a different level of thinking than what they are. That does I mean, we can always say we've been there, done that and hey, you should you should hear us, but that's not what that's not how they perceive us. Chris (1:00:11) And it's not what they want. You know? They don't want necessarily answers. I mean, how many times do you hear, you know, the the the it to be st you know, stereotypical here, you know, the the guy wants to fix the problem and the girl just wants to be heard and to be listened to. Don't fix my don't fix my problem. Just listen to me, you know? It's like Neil (1:00:28) Yeah. I had a ver I had a very interesting situation with my wife. She started a book book study with some friends and she was trying to read ⁓ the first chapter in the book and she's just not in the right space for it. And she was just angry, mad, upset. This was, you know, like once again, this was before our great weekend, and this was one of the catalysts for this. And she's like she's like she's trying to explain to like what she was dealing with and she's like, Well, just read the book and she's like, just read it, but don't try to fix me. Just read it and then we can talk about it but don't try to fix fix this situation. And honestly, we had a really this was a good thing where once again going back to an earlier conversation, why am I, you know, why am I angry when I'm hurt kind of thing? She had a lot of emotions that she's been dealing with once again since her aunt passed. This has really been hard on her. And when she read this chapter, her brain went all sorts of angles that she got defensive about. And then guess what? We talked about it. I didn't try to fix her. 'Cause I just gave her my take on what I was reading, not saying she was wrong or right. But once again, that could have been a situation that had we not had emotional safety with each other, we it would have been a blow up like had this happened ten years ago, I'd be like, Chris, can I come sleep on your couch? Chris (1:01:39) That could have been a blowout, absolutely. Yeah, and and that's unfortunately a lot of times the norm, you know, Neil, that ⁓ people fall into that. it's a trap. You know, for for sure. ⁓ yeah, thanks for sharing. I appreciate that because I think that this is something that people don't do necessarily naturally. A little tip. If you find yourself wondering about something, get curious out loud. Really and truly. Get curious out loud. And what I mean by that is Let the other person know that you want to understand this better. You wanna get it. I re it's really important to me that I understand what it is that you're saying. Can I ask you questions about that? I'm so curious about where you're at right now. And when you do that, it's like, my god, the person be on the other side of the equation is like, my god, you really care about me. You might not even give a rip. Honestly. But if you if you're on a date And you want to get another date, get curious about what makes them tick. Get curious about what they enjoy. Get curious. The more curious you are, the more attracting you get and become, and the more safe you become. That's what makes you ⁓ attractive. So, yeah, where did we land? Strong relationships are not conflict free. You know, I don't think that's a myth people fall onto. But with this idea of of what you know what creates Emotional safety, how trust, vulnerability, and connection change relationships. You know, y you're not looking for a conflict free relationship. ⁓ I like to talk about the golden egg. I talked about it extensively in this episode, that space between that sacred space between a husband and a wife, where you feel like you can say anything, anything that you want to or need to say. It's a hard thing to create. But that that doesn't get to Be conflict free, strong relationships are safe enough to actually have conflict. Healthy couples learn repair, validation, accountability, and curiosity. I mentioned curiosity, but healthy couples can go through conflict and offer repairs quickly. They know how to validate the experience of the other person. They're actually accountable with the things that they do and say. Think of the combination of those things. The goal is not perfection. It's, you know, simply put, even in friendships and in business partnerships, you know, can we handle hard things together? Can we process information, make decisions when these layered emotions are flying? And it's a wonderful thing when you get into a relationship where you feel close to. The idea that you can say anything you want to say, anything that you need to say. You know, it and and feel some ability of safety with that. It's a very, very valuable relationship. Besides your spouses, 'cause I know you both have talked about that. Do you guys have a place that you have that semblance of ability to say anything that gets on your mind? Kyle (1:05:03) I feel s I feel like we do. Yeah. Chris (1:05:07) Right? Neil, I know we share one in common, right? That's the way I feel about a group of men that we have weekly meetings with. Super valuable. I actually have a client that's talking about wanting to create that and he's and he's targeting four or five people. Super excited for him. I don't think he even knows how much he's landing on something that's one of the most valuable things you can Neil (1:05:29) My my wife is doing this book study with friends that she's known for a long time and it's like I'm like, finally, I have another buddy that I'm really close with. His wife finally started building connections. Honestly, women are almost worse at it to build a healthy friend group than guys are. Because women have all these stigmas, all these things they do. Guys are kinda like guys kind of need something to do with it, but you'll get you guys will get buddies really fast. Women always have these things in Chris (1:05:47) That's true. Neil (1:05:59) They're always so worried about other people and all this other. They never take the time to say, I need a group for myself. I need someone to help myself. And so I think really women having the emotional safety of other women is really, I think, undervalued on that side. And I think I think it needs to be a healthy group. Not your gossip buddies, not your woo-girl drinking buddies. Like literally your friends that are there to build each other up. Chris (1:06:22) Yeah, that's Neil (1:06:28) And to be there to support them. Cause while spouses are great and boyfriend, girlfriends are great, having someone of the same sex that you can talk to that can relate to you and can build you up is super important. So your emotional safety should be, to me, your significant other. And then it should be a small group of friends. Cause you need that, you need those spaces. Chris (1:06:48) Well, it's interesting. We say God at the top of the list if your religion's important to you, if not a cause greater than yourself, but then God's self, spouse, kids, family, friends, and work. And in that order of priority, you hopefully can find spaces, plural, spaces where you can have that meal. Kyle (1:06:48) Mm-hmm. Hey, you can find it in ⁓ mullet championship, preparing for that or preparing for the Excel World Championship, whatever. Chris (1:07:16) The Mollet Weaving Excel Championship on ESPN O Joe, baby. Neil (1:07:17) And and you and and you won't And and you won't find emotional safety with and if you have two boys like me, you won't find emotional safety in your kids because they're jerks like their father. But that's a whole nother thing. Kyle (1:07:24) There's your outlet right there. Chris (1:07:33) Indeed. Well listen, we we covered a lot of ground here in this episode ⁓ monthly review because we had a lot of shows. I think that I have kinda landed in some space where we're gonna talk about I met a divorce attorney today. ⁓ she researched Metrolina and wanted to kind of talk to Metrolina about referrals because get this I met a lawyer who wants to treat and deal with in a whole wellness sort of way the whole family rather than just going in for a nice old legal battle. She wants to help people. I was so refreshed. I was like, wow. I was really impressed with that. So we may go into some shows where we're talking about ⁓ you know, divorce and, you know, care for the family and, you know, do you really, you know, need to get divorced or what are the dangers with that? So we're gonna we're gonna kinda play around with the theme. on the closest relationship and how we manage divorce if we do get divorced and how we manage to hopefully not get divorced in the front front end of it in the first place. ⁓ so little series of shows I think that we'll have in July ⁓ as we celebrate our country's two hundred and fiftieth celebration. I know you in Europe you'll probably laugh at us. You're like, come on man, five thousand two hundred and fifty years is what we're celebrating I've actually thought about that guys. We're babies. We are babies, you know that, right? Kyle (1:09:01) Mm-hmm. Neil (1:09:01) There there there's pubs Kyle (1:09:02) yeah. Neil (1:09:03) older than our country over there in Europe. Like that's the thing, right? So Kyle (1:09:05) yeah. Chris (1:09:06) Yeah. Yeah rich, rich history. Kyle (1:09:08) tell I'm telling Neil (1:09:10) Yeah, but we have buckies, so that's all that matters. I said we have buckeys. That's all that matters. Kyle (1:09:10) you what you go over to Is they got buckies Chris (1:09:12) Was that Neil? we got buckies. Now we have a good we have a good ⁓ soccer team in the World Cup. I hope around the world you're enjoying the World Cup. We've hopefully been good hosts. I know our United States team is doing well. I think there's a team that's has like a country smaller on an island that's going crazy. Have you seen that? Seen that by the way? I heard that just today. Like Verde or something like that is like beating all these big teams. There's a there's a Cinderella team in the World Cup this year. But hope you're enjoying the summer. Kyle (1:09:21) Yeah. Chris (1:09:45) Hope you enjoyed our conversation. We'll fire back up with you ⁓ next week on Thursdays at about 6 to 6 30. All right. Take care. ⁓ Kyle, thanks for hanging out with us. Neil, good to see you as always. Stay well. Take care. We'll see you guys next week.