In Episode 365 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, the panel dives into a candid discussion on one of life’s heaviest decisions: determining whether a marriage is truly over or simply deeply wounded. Exploring critical warning signs like abuse and addiction alongside the transformative lens of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), this episode helps couples untangle whether their true enemy is their partner or a negative interaction cycle. Through powerful reflection questions and practical guidance on emotional safety, listeners are encouraged to slow down and evaluate their relationship intentionally—ensuring that whether the path leads to reconciliation or letting go with dignity, the outcome is rooted in clarity, healing, and peace.
Tune in to see if your Marriage is Really Over Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How do you know whether your marriage is truly over—or simply deeply wounded?
- What decisions should every couple make before considering divorce?
- Are you trying to end your marriage, or are you trying to end the pain?
Links referenced during the show:
Chapter 2 | The most effective marriage counseling is pre-marital counseling.
Understanding healthy relationships before crisis often prevents later disconnection.
Chapter 15 | The day you stop focusing on your marriage as the priority relationship…
Healthy marriages require intentional investment throughout life.
Chapter 21 | Learn how to fight well through discussions.
Conflict itself is not the problem; destructive conflict patterns are.
Chapter 22 | Couples need to develop a “race” in the apology/forgiveness cycle…
Repair is one of the strongest predictors of relationship longevity.
Chapter 40 | Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust…
Feeling emotionally understood is foundational to reconnecting.Chapter 2 | The most effective marriage counseling is pre-marital counseling.
Understanding healthy relationships before crisis often prevents later disconnection.
Chapter 15 | The day you stop focusing on your marriage as the priority relationship…
Healthy marriages require intentional investment throughout life.
Chapter 21 | Learn how to fight well through discussions.
Conflict itself is not the problem; destructive conflict patterns are.
Chapter 22 | Couples need to develop a “race” in the apology/forgiveness cycle…
Repair is one of the strongest predictors of relationship longevity.
Chapter 40 | Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust…
Feeling emotionally understood is foundational to reconnecting.
Chapter 1.11 | Accepting things is a part of your emotional growth.
Acceptance helps couples distinguish between problems they can solve and realities they must learn to navigate.
Chapter 1.33 | Realize change does not happen to us; it happens with us.
Healthy marriages change because both partners intentionally participate in the process.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #365 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello, good evening, good morning, or good afternoon. This is through a therapist eyes on June the twenty-third. I'm back this week. Vic Victoria as well is back this week. How are you, ma'am? Victoria (00:14) I'm good. I feel like I haven't been here in a year. Chris (00:17) It's been a minute, hasn't it? It has been a minute. so we had Casey hanging out with us last week, kinda leading us out. so I understand Neil said that she stared at the video for a little while before we got kicked up, but she did a great job. I checked it out. I didn't even see that, Neil, when when you were on. By the way, your camera's still on, Neil. I don't know if you intend that or not. Neil (00:40) I'll turn myself off in a second. I just make sure everything's rolling and then I then I shut myself down. Chris (00:45) Yeah, he shuts it down. what are we doing today, Victoria? We have episode three sixty five, and it it's it's kind of bookending where we started from. so this one is kind of gonna be finishing the conversation that Casey and I started. She is a panelist as well, and John Pope has got some family business as well. So our panel's been it's summer schedule, man. episode three sixty-five Victoria (01:11) The place. Chris (01:12) before, huh? Victoria (01:14) I said all over the place. Chris (01:16) It it really is. Before you file for divorce, is your marriage really over? What every couple should know continued. And I say continued because this whole month we've been really dealing with some pretty heavy issues. the Genesis I had explained on the first week when Casey and I met, there was a a lawyer group. You've now met them, Chelsea and Caroline that are from Sedoma Law here in the Belmont area, which is west of Charlotte, where our hometown here is. And they just had a really different and unique kind of perspective in the way that they practice family law and they were just reaching out to Metrolana, that's our parent company, for support and referrals and that type of thing, meaning they want to refer to us and such. So, you know, I just chatted with them and and they wanted to kind of talk about the real realities that marriage faces in separation and divorce. And so we talked about before your file, you know, is divorce, is that is your marriage really over? Then we talked about separation. with Chelsea and then we talked about the actual divorce process Casey and Caroline did and now we're kind of circling back. I was really hoping that John would be able to be joining us because, you know, he hasn't shared his views. So Victoria, I'm really gonna be curious to to see how you feel about this, what your what your contribute is and sort of, you know, how you see things from your through a therapist size lens. did you check out any of these shows? Have you b have you had a chance to check anything out, Victoria? Victoria (02:45) no, if I'm g being Chris (02:46) Yeah. Victoria (02:46) honest, because things have been a little crazy in the Pendergrass household and life for the last I don't even know. We have a four year old, so it's like all the time, I guess. Chris (02:59) Yeah, it's gonna be that way for at least five more years. Victoria (03:03) lovely. I look forward to that. but yeah, I mean I definitely wish we could get the full panel's perspective on this today, but I'm excited to give my two cents. And See where it goes from there, I guess. Chris (03:19) Gotcha. So the reflection questions, we'd like to create some questions for you to think about through the show. How do you know whether your marriage is truly over? And these are the same questions we were thinking about with Casey and I week one of this month. Or simply deeply wounded. make decisions Or what decisions should every couple make before considering divorce? And then are you trying to end your marriage or are you trying to end the pain? And I think that last one's a pretty provocative question. So this is through a therapist eyes where you get information, insights about mental health and substance abuse. We'd like to blow up stereotypes and myths and disseminate information knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. I got a book out that I have been trying to talk about because the marriage book that I wrote through a therapist's eyes. reunderstanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse, I really think applies to a lot of the things that we've been talking about. and Victoria (04:12) Mm-hmm. Chris (04:12) I've I've been using it in sessions and the chapters are all real therapy moments. And I I think that you'll get a lot out of it if you're if you're digging this topic. click subscribe, give us the five stars. John Pope gets upset about that if we don't get the five stars. But we do want to do this for free for you. And we do ask that you do your part in telling a friend Sending a subscription or a particular show to somebody that really helps us out, you know, a lot. A lot more than you would think in getting found and growing and all that kind of stuff. And then contact at through a therapistyes.com is the website to get up with us. Look, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. I want to highlight as well, we haven't really highlighted Victoria, you know, our three. Theme music, man. This guy named Reed Ferguson on the theme music that you hear on the audio version. Yeah, have you heard that in a while? Victoria (05:12) Yeah, I mean I've heard I've heard it. sometimes when I open my Apple podcast, my it'll like what Chris (05:19) Yeah. Victoria (05:20) the whatever the most recent episode will like jump in and I'll hear it. Chris (05:24) Dude brought it. Victoria (05:25) Yeah, I know we are th definitely thankful that he was able to offer his musical talents and Chris (05:31) Original music, original intro, find his links on the website through a therapist eyes dot com. It it shows how to find him. He'll come to your house and play for you. Guys, parties, events, and all sorts of things. It's very very cool. okay, man, let's let's get into this heavy week, Victoria. I month material. I don't know. This this this whole for v for obvious reasons, having gone through, you know, separating and divorcing and you know, those processes in life that Casey and I kinda wrapped a little bit on the first time that we were meeting this week and it just this particular topic means a lot to me. it divorce and separation and when even with children, man, when you when you get into having any kind of heartbreak or losing a primary relationship, it it's it's soul crushing. It it's it's a hard, hard reality, I can tell you, personally and clinically, for many, many years I have known that when somebody loses their primary relationship, that is when they're at their most decompensated state is a fancy way of saying. They've hit the floor. Victoria (06:40) Mm. yeah, no. Yeah, and I I'd like it I usually tell pe talked with people about like it doesn't it doesn't matter whether you're you know, it was amlicable or whether it was like super toxic or whether, you know, whether it was both wanted. Like it's still you're still like grieving a loss of like your primary relationship, but still like a pretty big deal. Doesn't matter like how it ends. Chris (07:10) Well, i it doesn't. And and honestly, I you know, what I was kinda getting at too, right? Like you I know you've worked with a lot of teens and kids and things and when you were back in the day in the school area. Victoria (07:21) Mm-hmm. Chris (07:22) And I and I gotta tell ya, you know, we belittled them. It's like, that's so cute, so sweet, you had a crush, you got your heart hurt, you know. And no, man, people get suicidal over that in schools, right? Victoria (07:34) Yeah, no, I mean it is definitely the amount of times that I've heard, you know, things like, Well, I didn't break up with him or them because they told me they were gonna hurt themselves if the if I did or like, you know, even or even after it happens, then yeah, I mean you just get your emotional like state can drastically drop, which can lead to things like suicidal thoughts, harming yourself. Putting yourself or others at danger or at risk of harm. Chris (08:10) Yeah, and I think you're you're funny. You just stop mid sentence sometimes. Was that an end of a sentence? Victoria (08:14) That was the end of a sentence. That was the end my thought. Chris (08:18) Sometimes I don't know if you're mid sentence or end of the sentence, Victoria. Victoria (08:21) Yeah, I don't know. do often daze off into thought. It takes me a second to like gather my words. But yeah, I mean I I Chris (08:27) Gotcha. Victoria (08:28) mean like yeah, I w I see it all the time. But and I definitely see it both like male and female. You know, I see it both sides. Chris (08:36) yeah. Victoria (08:36) And so, and even I've even seen it like, you know, from from the person that does the ending, like from the person that initiated the ending of the relationship. Right, like and you know, I've also met with kids who their parents divor you know, so then it's like the kids, the products of the Chris (08:58) All sides. Victoria (08:58) people like, you know, and so it's definitely provides a lot of insight into like the full effect of like the full dynamic family dynamic. Chris (09:09) Yeah, and and I gotta say, I I really feel like, you know people I mean I don't wanna we we've talked about, you know, separating is is is appropriate sometimes and divorcing is very appropriate sometimes. but I but I think generally speaking, is it is it true to say, Victoria, like I feel like people do get pretty impulsive with it. I feel like people generally get uncomfortable and boom. They're just they're ready to rock and roll and thinking the grass is greener somewhere else and just get done quick. Yeah, I I like I've even had I've even had people Victoria (09:43) Yeah, you know what? Sorry, go ahead. Chris (09:45) in therapy that are like, you know, two, three years married and they're like, I gotta get out of here I'm like, Jeeze man, like what are we doing? Victoria (09:52) Yeah. Yeah. I recently was reminded of saying I can't remember if I've said it on here yet before yeah. but I was recently reminded that the grass is greener where you water it. Chris (10:07) Yeah. Victoria (10:08) And so like, you know, the grass it looks greener on the other side because that couple waters their grass, right? Because they feed into it. They like give it sunshine, they give it water, they give it soil, like they give it the treatment, they aerate it, they like do all the things that needs to be done to their grass so that it's green, right? And like your Chris (10:28) Right. Victoria (10:29) grass is not green because you're not freaking watering it. You know, you're not giving into it, you're not feeding it, you're not, you know. trying every latch last ditch effort to get it to turn green or whatever. Chris (10:45) And or People don't know how. I find that as well. People can get pretty impulsive Victoria (10:50) Yes, yes. Chris (10:51) and or they really like I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say, like, I just don't know what to do on my wit's end. I you know, people Victoria (10:59) Yeah. Chris (11:00) come in for couples counseling when I've quote unquote tried everything, you know, and nothing works. There's Victoria (11:06) Mm-hmm. Chris (11:06) a lot of desperation in all of this, which is the name Victoria (11:09) Yeah. Chris (11:09) of today. Like, you know, are you are you sure? You know, w is it really over? What what what do you need To know what do you need to be thinking about? I don't think people have any ideas sometimes. I hope these shows have given you some ideas, and we've done other shows on Married Victoria (11:25) Right. yeah, for sure. Chris (11:27) for to to get in there and and and get into the real the real meat and potatoes of like what's going on that's led you to where you're at? What made that green gr grass brown? Because you don't get married if the grass isn't green, right? Victoria (11:42) Well, I I I at least would hope not, right? Chris (11:45) Right. Victoria (11:45) I I often I often tell my clients who are going through like relationship struggles or like marriage struggles or whatever, you know, I I often tell them, I'm like, you know, most people don't get married with the intention of getting divorced. Right? Like, sure, I guess you might have some people who I don't know, their circumstances, right? Can't necessarily say everybody. Dude. But like, you know, ninety-nine point nine percent of people, most people are getting married with the intention of staying married, right? Like, yeah, so I mean I would assume that most people aren't getting married if their grass is not at least headed towards greener pastures. Chris (12:36) And you gotta know how to manage it and maintain it, right? And shout out to Sonoma Law. You know, you're you're quoting Caroline speaks. I've you know during last week's show. She was talking about that constantly and and many several times pointed out. Yeah, people didn't get married to be in my office. They didn't get married to be in a courtroom or a separating process and stuff. And that that so shout out to Sonoma Law. They they really are, you know, f free advertisement for Sonoma Law and Belmont. I I was impressed, Victoria, because they They have a different philosophy, a different mindset, a different spirit, a not a vindictive, angry, or violent one in court. They're not like trying to take people and get them your husband for all that they're worth, or you know, tear your wife up Victoria (13:19) Right. Chris (13:20) in a court of law and because she didn't do what you think she should have done. They're not going after people, they're actually doing it really right. And so I I have a lot of Victoria (13:27) I love that. Chris (13:27) respect now for Sodoma Law in Belmont, North Carolina. The last couple of weeks we have their links and all that that you can find them. Please go that direction if needed. Because they're also not gonna get snowballed in court neither. Nobody's gonna run over these people. I tell you Victoria (13:41) Yeah. Chris (13:41) that too. but but they said that. Yeah, no one no one does that. So Casey and I talked about divorce is a decision that deserves deliberation. And I don't think anybody really is going to to to fight that too much. But in the second segment that we got to, would you believe Casey or Victoria? We only got through two case through two segments with Casey that first week, because I just slowed it down. This is such a big topic. That didn't want Victoria (14:06) Yeah. Chris (14:06) to be any kind of rushing. I feel the same way this week kinda too. and then we did segment two. Is your marriage really over? Question mark, right? Like it that that is a primary question I really want people to think about. You might not know what to do. You might feel like you've tried everything. You might think everything's doomed. You might think you could do things better on the other side of the neighborhood or even across the street. But I I gotta tell ya, usually they don't work out well, right? Victoria (14:34) Yeah. Chris (14:34) I would really rather see and figure out like what's going on with you internally now and what can you do differently now, right? Because many couples, and this is what we talked about in that segment, confuse things such as I'm exhausted or I'm full of resentment. We fight all the time. Chronic conflict. There's so much distance. I hate that phrase, Victoria. We just grew apart. I don't know what happened. That those those things are not irreconcilable differences. Victoria (15:13) Well yeah, I w it's yeah, like Yeah, I'm like when someone says I grew you know, we grew apart, well like, okay, well, what did you do to try to grow back together? You know, like there are th Chris (15:28) Yeah. Victoria (15:29) that you know We don't just Chris (15:32) Right. Victoria (15:32) w wake up one day and all of a sudden your husband is or wife or partner or whoever is like a thousand feet away from you, metaphorically, you know, like that Chris (15:41) What it means that people are in a state of pain, it's not a permanent state of mind Victoria (15:47) Mm. Chris (15:48) or a permanent incompatibility. And Casey and I talked about it means you're feeling hopeless, you're feeling lonely, you're feeling like you're not good enough, that you're not chosen, and that you don't know how to reconnect. that would drive me s baddie. 'Cause it's just Connect. I mean just you want to know how to connect by the way? Be vulnerable with what it is that you're feeling and you will connect. If you're not being vulnerable, you're not gonna connect. Can I make that statement? Right? Victoria (16:18) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talk to each other. Like, use your words. I mean, we've ta I've talked about how we don't try not to say that. I try to say, like, you know, tell me what you need. What do you need in this moment? Like, do you need more what do you need more from me? Like what you know, as a couple, as a marriage, like in our interactions together, like what do you need? Yeah, talk about it. Cause I again often say we can't read each remind people that we can't read each other's minds. Chris (16:50) You can't. And so what a what a risk it is. I don't even like that word, to be honest with you, Victoria. Like I don't like to admit I need stuff. Like I'm fine, I'm good. I don't have feelings. I can make those jokes and make those deflective statements, but you know, i if if you don't, you won't have what it is that you want either, in addition to what you do. Victoria (17:07) I mean, weren't you the one that just said, I mean, it might maybe more than a couple episodes ago, that like we're feeling feelings 24-7. And so Chris (17:17) absolutely. Yes, that was me. Victoria (17:18) yeah, like there's always something there. You may not be able to identify it, like you might be struggle with being able to like communicate or express like what that feeling is to your partner, but it's still there, like that's still all up in you. So Chris (17:39) Yeah, let's let's go on to segment number three that Casey and I didn't get to at warning signs that should never be ignored. But before we do, I wanna cite my lean again. And it's pretty much a hard lean, to be honest with you. I I really have a hard lean, and I'm curious in this instance, Victoria, where you fall in that and what your experience is, especially clinically. Stay married. But Why is that? We've said several times throughout this this month, we don't get a vote, we don't have an agenda, we go with where you are and what you want to do, we kind of help it point out the things that are healthy and things that are hurtful and things to think about, danger spots, success, which one of the coolest things I heard this month, by the way, is what is a successful separation, if you can think through that. I've never heard of that expression, but Chelsea and I talked about that. But why do I have a lean? I have a lean because we Know clinically, we have researched and studied, like it is a very, very clear, prominent understanding that if you stay together and reconcile, especially if you can get over the stage of life, even if it's a 10-year stage of life, or or or you have cancer and and it's never going to go away, that new period of time for those five years of adjusting to major medical complications, and you get through that. On the other side of that, when you do reconcile, people are way. better off mentally, the family is more secure, the children are more grounded. You internally are more resilient and confident and comfortable and the relationship is stronger because what doesn't kill you, break makes you stronger, applies here. That is all why and probably more, that I have a strong lean on staying together. Where where do you see that, Victoria? Victoria (19:30) Yeah, I mean I think that I mean, obviously aside from like, you know, which I'm I again, since I didn't listen to the episodes yet, I don't know if y'all talked about this, so you'll have to tell me. But like, you know, aside Chris (19:43) Fine. Victoria (19:44) from things like, you know, domestic violence and abuse and like neglect of either you, the spouse, or your children, you know, yeah, I mean, I think that it's at least worth a shot to Give it your best effort to like make see if you can make your relationship work. Especially like, I mean, I I would say regardless of how ever long you've been married, whether you've been married for like four months or forty years, you know, like I think it's worth again, barring those examples of like exclusion, then yeah, like I mean, I think that it I would I would probably pretty much agree with you that I think it's worth sticking together. But you're right. As like a clinical standpoint, like it is not our job to tell you to divorce or leave your spouse. It is not our job to tell you how to think about it. But it is our job to point out like toxic behavior, unhealthy things that are happening in a relationship. It is our job to like help you see those things, but then to also help you see like how you can turn it from unhealthy to healthy, how you can like address those things and work on those things. Chris (20:58) even when you don't think it's possible, right? Victoria (21:04) Correct. Chris (21:05) Yeah, listen to this, listen to this list. It's it's not a long list. I mean, there are reasons for separating and divorcing in and this isn't a complete list, but it's a pretty strong stuff here. Ongoing abuse. Now people use the word emotional abuse, and be careful about throwing that word around, man, sir, you know, like stop. But ongoing physical, sexual, or you know, abuse. repeated infidelity without accountability. There's a without there. Addiction with. There's a refusal to seek treatment. So it's not just infidelity. People people have recovered from affairs, sadly, all the time. I say sadly because it has to happen. It's a lot of pain when it happens, but The belief that I will drop you dead if you ever, you know, cheat on me or whatever. people actually recover, you know, from that. But ongoing abuse, repeated infidelity without accountability, addiction issues to drugs and or alcohol with refusal to seek treatment, coercive control, or chronic emotional or physical danger. That's a that's a hard list. Right? Victoria (22:15) It's a long list. Chris (22:16) Well, do you think so? I think it's pretty short. Victoria (22:18) Well, I mean it's short, but I think it's I mean, I guess maybe what I meant to say is like the things themselves are big things. Like, if that makes sense. Chris (22:31) You know what's funny? I I'm I'm surprised at your response. That's a long list. I feel like it's a pretty short list because people talk about I he he he I I I you know, when you ask them why are why why did what did your marriage work out? Why didn't your marriage work out? There's a plethora of examples. People will start talking about, well, they just spent too much money. They never listened to me. We fought a lot. We just never got along. I didn't get along with their family and and and it was very stressful. On and on it goes with all of these things that Victoria (23:08) B Chris (23:14) that are battle lines, that are that are irritants, that are that are annoyances and whatnot, not things like abuse, not things like addiction without treatments, not even just addiction. Victoria (23:22) Mm-hmm. Chris (23:24) That's what people say. I mean think about it, Victoria. How many how many Victoria (23:26) Mm-hmm. Chris (23:27) how many reasons have you been given by clients, you know, for why it their marriage didn't work out? 'Cause we ask every assessment, right? Victoria (23:37) Right. You mean like the reasons that I've been given that weren't on this list that you gave? Yeah. I mean yeah. Chris (23:41) Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's not it's a short list because we hear so many crazy things. Victoria (23:46) Well I meant like it's a yeah. I guess I meant more that's a long list of like what I believe are valid reasons for separation and divorce. Chris (23:57) Well, be careful. There's a lot of valid I if somebody wants to do this, I I don't want to invalidate their yeah. Victoria (24:00) Okay, maybe not valid, yeah. Yeah, it's not never right in value. But like I guess we'll say it's a sh long list for th for reasons why like you might not want to like fight to extend your marriage, like to make it work. Is that a better way of Chris (24:16) Right. Victoria (24:16) saying it than like yeah. So I mean I think yeah, I mean I've heard all sorts of things. I mean probably not as nearly as much as you because you've been doing this a lot longer than I have. so you've Chris (24:26) Been a minute. Victoria (24:27) probably had you've had more clients in this in these scenarios. But yeah, I mean things like, yeah, we we argue all the time or what I you know, like j basically things that you said too. I don't get along with their friends or I don't get along with their family members or, you know, like Chris (24:47) Right. Yeah, we've we've heard some pretty crazy things. That seems simple. Victoria (24:51) Their si their sister hates me and I'm like, okay, well like does your s does their sister live with you? Like are you know, are you having to like share a household together? Like, you know they the people can get rather creative. Chris (25:09) They really do in rationalizing their frustration because again, you know, there's a there's a whole lot of things kind of going on that you believe and you perceive and like I've tried everything and I'm willing to bet y you haven't, but but you know, truly every marriage is not needing to be saved. But we need honest evaluation of that and we've said variations of that even today. Honest where, honest with whom. And Victoria, I'm gonna say honest with you, sir. With you, ma'am, yourself. Not trying to diagnose and pick apart and blame and think you know what's going on in the other person's head. We're talking about like yourself. Here's some questions to think about. Right? Ha so so so we're in like, you know, what do you really need to know? What do you really need to do? I've tried everything. I don't know how to reconnect. Well, have you clearly identified the negative cycles that go on and what your part is in that negative cycle? Have you truly listened to each other, meaning stuck with and understand you could describe to your spouse's best friend Excuse me, what what their position is and how they're feeling, right? Truly, truly listened and heard. Have have you talked about unmet emotional needs? Do you even know what those are? Have you tried counseling? Are you willing? Would would you regret not trying one more intentional effort? What kind of a regret or resentment state are you in? And any of those questions are really all thought of internally, not like, my gosh, Victoria, people are so ready to blame the other person in this relationship. Victoria (27:09) Yeah, I was gonna say, do you know how many people I have had who like I see them individu like they're the ones that I see in they're the the the part of the duo marriage that I see individually. And they will tell me I have been trying to get my partner to come to couples therapy for years. I have been trying to get my partner to do their own individual therapy. I've been trying to get my partner to like, you know, even just come join me. In my own, because I always welcome my therapy sessions open. Like people can bring their spouse or their friend or a support person Chris (27:43) I do as well. Victoria (27:44) or whatever. And like, and I have had people bring their spouse, and I still treat it like a not like a couples session because that per you know they're there for that person, but like even that. And I'm like, you know, and these are a lot of times relationships, marriages that are are on the cusp of like not surviving. And so and they're j you know, I have my client that's like Victoria, you know, like I've been trying to get my partner to come in to do couples therapy and they w refuse and you know, I don't know Chris (28:14) Yeah. Victoria (28:14) what to do you know, I don't know what to do because it's like W I can only do so much with my participation in my own individual therapy. Chris (28:26) Yeah, and and you know, Victoria (28:27) Well. Chris (28:27) to that to that end, one of the things I would really suggest is and I definitely have have experienced this for many years, it it it takes two people to manage and affect change in a relationship. Victoria (28:41) It takes two to make things go right. Chris (28:43) Right? There's a song. You're like John singing. Victoria (28:47) Yeah, sorry. I will be quiet now. Chris (28:48) Right, it does. It takes two. However, however, I will really tell you there is a there is a paradox here. Right? We Victoria (28:57) Is there? Chris (28:58) we can agree, you know what a paradox is? Something something Victoria (29:01) Yes, keep going. Chris (29:02) that happens that shouldn't be able to happen. It's like completely opposite to what we know about in reality. That's a paradox. I once had a cat named Paradox, gave him to my mom and she renamed him Cat. To say. I know. Victoria (29:19) Ow. I'll wear. Geez, Mom. Chris (29:21) There's a very signific I know, right? There is a very significant paradox here. And that is to say, if you and your spouse interact, you develop patterns, you develop routines, you develop a common, repetitive, arguably chronic interaction reality. Okay? So if one of the two people really look internal, just one, really look internal. And become fundamentally different, that pattern that you were in cannot be the same. It cannot. Like if you feel powerless, ma'am, in your marriage today, I can assure you that if you're different, I can't assure you your marriage is gonna stay the same. But, sir, if you're unhappy in your marriage and you really want it to be different. You change internal process, you make yourself dramatically different consistently over many months or even years, that pattern will be different. That's a guarantee I'll give you. How do you make your part of the cyclical process different? Right now, there's the rub. There's the rub. So it's totally a paradox. You cannot control the other person, but if you change yourself, you're controlling the change in the patterns, right? Isn't that crazy? Victoria (30:47) Yeah, and I don't think people often think like that. Chris (30:50) Yeah. Feel powerless, feel Victoria (30:52) Yeah. Chris (30:52) helpless, feel out of control, desperate. I it's it's a horrible, horrible feeling, to be in a bad marriage. Victoria (30:59) Well yeah, I mean and I mean think about it when you Yeah, and then when you feel that way, like you don't necessarily feel like you have the energy to fight. You know, so then you're more likely to give up easier because you're like, Well, you know what? Like, well my like my partner's not doing anything, like they're not changing. I've changed all that I can change, I've you know, fixed and helped and done all that I can fix and help and blah blah blah. And like yeah, then it's like, okay, well then yeah, is it easier or is it better for us to just go ahead and end this? Like to not you know, and then that spirals and then, you know. Chris (31:35) And usually it is not. However, not every marriage needs to be saved, yeah. You know, I I I I feel like, you know, we haven't really talked about it much at all, but the the The reality here is what to do, how to make things different, what are the patterns. I mean, this is why I am a groupie man. I love emotion focused therapy. It it's it's absolutely gets right at the core. So if you want to really dig into this, emotion focused therapy, EFT. There's a lady named Sue Johnson that wrote excellent material on this stuff. The Hold Me Tight Conference is a powerful, powerful transformative conference. Conference and service to go to where you it's an active, engaging conference between you and your husband and and and like six other couples. John Gottman is the grandfather, if you will, of of looking at what happens in these abandonment and engulfment cycles. We have shows on this. This is so important to me and so impactful in my opinion as a therapist that it's one of only three different things that we regularly kind of repeat as a theme for from time to time on this show because it's a game changer, Victoria. It is an absolute game changer. Victoria (32:58) Yeah, it's your your what do you call it? Your th three pillar of three, your what do you call it? Your the trifecta. Yeah. Chris (33:03) Part of the trifecta. Yeah. Victoria (33:08) Hi, Girly. Chris (33:10) Girly, who are talking about? Playing around with your cat or you're talking to me? I'm not I'm not a I'm not a girly. Victoria (33:14) No. Well she was like Paul she was polin' at me, so I gotta give her lovins. Chris (33:20) I am not a curly, I just want to point that out to everybody. Victoria (33:23) No, I was talking to this girly. Chris (33:25) Okay, well it sounded like you were talking to me, girly. Victoria (33:30) but yeah, I mean I d I would also agree that I think I have taken on your pillar of three owl. and I would agree. Chris (33:41) Yeah, I mean it it's it's one of one of the central themes with EFT that I think is a nice bold, broader statement. I hope you really hear this. You know, if you're listening to us with the show, figuring out about your marriage. Y your enemy is usually not your partner. It really is not your spouse. You married them. They're they're not the enemy. The enemy is the negative interaction cycle. And if you don't know what your negative interaction cycle is, where it starts, where it started in your life, your part, because you have a pattern. If you don't understand what the emotional element is, like if you don't understand if you're on the abandonment side or the engulfment side, if you haven't figured out how to get out of a bad spiraling cycle five minutes after you start these irritabilities, or at least an hour after the argument is done, you don't know what you're talking about. And I don't take Victoria (34:48) All agree. Chris (34:49) pleasure in saying that. That's a powerful statement and pretty ballsy on my part. But if you don't understand those things that I'm talking about about your individual negative interaction styles, then you're actually naive as to what is even going on. Which oftentimes Victoria, I find people are absolutely confused about all of this. You know why? Because it's highly emotional and they they they they just don't they don't know what to do. It's such a such a desperate feeling. I mean I felt that in the beginning of our marriage. panic. You know, when I was told, you know, I'm well well, I I guess I'll say it. Sh she ain't never gonna listen to it anyway. You know, I love you but I'm not in love you is one of the things I heard right in the beginning, right? That just s dabbed through my soul in a in a powerful way. And it sent me on a pretty much year long, two year long panic. Like I'm reading, I'm thinking, like I'm a therapist, I do this stuff you know, for the most part. Not that I know how to apply it myself, by the way, because that's a whole another level, Victoria, right? You know, we we're challenged ourselves in these concepts. Victoria (35:56) Yeah, knowing it and applying it. Yeah. There's a reason I have my own therapist. Chris (36:04) Right? Absolutely. And we talk about those things in our own therapy. Victoria (36:09) have you had actually have you I know it's kind of but like have you actually had people I've had words, Victoria. my gosh. I've actually had clients ask me like if I have my own therapist. Like he would have asked me. Really? Chris (36:21) They they don't ask me too often, but they have and yeah. Victoria (36:25) I've I it's more I will say it's it tends to be more women that ask me than men. But yeah, and Chris (36:34) Yeah. Victoria (36:34) I've even had some kids, like teenagers ask me like not the kid kids, but like the high schoolers. I've even had some high high schoolers be ask me if I have my own therapist. I think it's like a Chris (36:44) Well, I wanna quantify that though. It I wanna qualify that in asking me that question 'cause 'cause you know, I must admit, there i there is this weird little thing. I mean, that's why I I I s I so respect you, Victoria, in in being as young as you are and engaged in the way that you are with your own work and stuff, because there's this whole therapy mentality, at least with my generation, Gen X therapists when when Gen Generation X people became therapists It was at a different time and we studied Victoria (37:17) Yeah. Chris (37:18) all this stuff which triggers your own work and you start thinking about yourself, but there is like, yo, I don't need to go to therapy, okay, yo, like you know. My my family sometimes I now affectionately and I mean affectionately call them ex-laws. You know, my my f my father ex law would made a statement one time. He's like, yeah, my whole goal was to make the therapist need therapy and that worked because I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm good. I don't need that. So there's a different mentality now, but I I I think I think when I was younger I had a real reticence to admit or to identify and so I I think Victoria (37:56) Sure. Chris (37:57) people didn't ask me as much. I'm wide open about it now. Hell people tell you hear me talking about an international podcast and so I I I totally have my own therapist. Kent's awesome. He's he's he's great. So so it's a it's a different day, Victoria, than we came in. Victoria (38:11) No, well and I love it because I actually think especially when it kinda like, you know, to bring it back to like couples and like marriages, is I think it's shows a level of vulnerability. Like I've also been like it I'll be on I'll don't hide the fact that like my husband and I have been to couples therapy and like that we have a couples therapist, which like I love Whitney. She's amazing. And like I even actually recommended her to a client of mine for her their own cup for like an individual client of mine for their own couple's therapy that they were looking for. And like yeah, I mean, I think that it it helps clients, especially like our couple clients, see that like, you know, even as a therapist, like marriages aren't perfect. Like but also what I do tell people is that like Going to couples therapy does not mean that your marriage is on the brink of divorce. Like you can go to couples therapy. Chris (39:17) Or please or please come to therapy before it's on the brink of divorce. I can't tell you how many times it's like bottom of the ninth inning. One person out, we're down by five runs, and you're coming to me saying, my god, please, this is a last ditch effort. One more thing we're gonna do to save my marriage, and I'm like, my gosh, like the the the pain is so the pain is so high, the resentments are just unbearable. The the chronic pattern is like thirty years old, like, my gosh, can we please do therapy year three when things get just a little bit sideways, like Generation Z or your millennials tend to do, by the way. Victoria (39:52) Mm-hmm. And that's what I'm saying is like if you I I describe it as like, okay, an individual therapy, right? Like, yes, typically there is sometimes a point where a reason that you go, right? You have something happen to you, you have like a speci anxiety, depression, whatever you want to address. But like you go to also like it's like maintenance on your brain. Just like you have go to, you know, you do annual physicals, you go get your teeth cleaned, like you get your eyes checked, you get you know, it's usually at a different pace. Like you might go every week, every other week, once a month, more frequently than you like go to the dentist. But it's the same mentality when you apply it to couples. Like if we can go ahead from the jump and make sure that we're like on the same page, that we're, you know, we know how to communicate effectively with each other. We know how to, you know, the other person thinks. We know if they're, you know, abandonment or engulfment. And then like we can, I'm not saying you have to meet every week. Right. But like at least some sort of regular like maintenance on your relationship. Chris (40:58) Or even just contract we were gonna meet six times just to see, honey, what's going on, you know? And and and and see at the end of that six months what you want to do and you know and and how that feels. But let's not get too far away from emotion focused therapy Victoria (41:10) Sorry. Chris (41:11) segment here. The the the idea is that super brief, John Gottman kind of wired people up and he found that people got triggered when he was observing their conversations and he honed in and he what's going on in this conversation and he found that people are on one of two sides of the fence, which is engulfment or abandonment. Abandonment People tend to pursue, engulfment people tend to withdraw. And so you've got pursue withdrawal. And to make a long story short, often, like an overwhelming majority of the time, opposites kind of attract. Because two abandonment people, it's a lot going on. Not a lot of people can tolerate that much. You know? Like Victoria, if you and I happen to find ourselves engaged and married and whatever in the next life, we would be talking too much. We would drive each other crazy, right? Too much. Victoria (42:00) Yes, because we're both abandonment people. Chris (42:02) Right? Or and to engulfment people, it's just like pretty much dead. There's just not a lot going on. So you have this push and this pull, this pursue and this withdrawal. And oftentimes that's what the cycle's about. One partner pursues, the other withdraws. The more one pursues, the more the other one shuts down. And Victoria (42:23) Yep. Chris (42:24) it's a painful place to be in that cycle. And we're all in that cycle, honestly. sort of one way or another on some level in some ways. And to be in that for thirty years or even ten years. It's over and over. Over again. Yeah, well, you know what, Victoria, right? Victoria (42:41) Yeah, that's same pattern. I was okay. Honestly, even like ten months ten months is even a long time. Like Chris (42:50) Yeah, you know, I mean you're right. But neither person is the problem, is what we're learning with emotion focused therapy. That cycle becomes the problem. And you know one of the things I do in working couples counseling, usually or often it's Victoria (43:04) I'm sure you're about to tably. Chris (43:05) usually often at some point I am Victoria. But you can guess if you'd like to. What do you think I do usually in a couples counseling session? With the cycle. Victoria (43:16) finding where to break it. Chris (43:19) Actually, essentially, yeah. Right? but in in in before and just understanding it, I like to name it. Right? Remember Victoria (43:27) Mm, yeah, that's helpful. Chris (43:29) that? You know, it's it's what is this cycle? Because if if you come up with a name our in my marriage our name was Cyclone. I I actually personally Sorry, Lisa, you know, but I really didn't think we could have a cooler name. I I didn't like the name Cyclone, but I was like, Yeah, whatever. I I that's that's cool. If she digs it, that's she digs it. But I always like to use this this example of a we we live in the South, the United States East Coast South region, right? And this was an old couple. So it's an old southern and they were both black. So old southern black couple that here in twenty twenty six, they saw the rough times here in the South. I mean, it was rough for black people, horrible history. Even in my lifetime, you know, 70s and 80s and 90s. Like people not so much the nineties, I think, but it was bad back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. Brutal down here. And so they were bickering and bickering and bickering and they worked to identify their pattern and we created a name and they said their name was the well. A well. Like they go down Victoria (44:33) Okay. Chris (44:34) into a well. Can you imagine Victoria (44:36) Okay, like a water well. Chris (44:38) falling into a southern water well? Dark, danky, bugs, scary place to be. Cobwebs, Victoria (44:46) Probably some snakes. Chris (44:47) snakes. I mean, there's shit down in the well, man. I'm terrified to even think about falling into a well. I thought it was a wonderful original name for the cycle. Because that's what it's like. You fall into a well. But people use hurricane or you know, some people actually create things like tumbleweeds. I s is someone I'm working with now. They they get into this the tumbleweeds. It's like the the dark, dank desert and you know, and they're just stuff just rolls away. It's just Victoria (45:16) Yeah, I had a I had a client, it wasn't intentional, but they had already named it before getting to me. and they Chris (45:23) I love that. Victoria (45:24) called they called it the storm. So, Chris (45:27) Yeah, yeah. Victoria (45:28) yeah. Chris (45:30) Yeah, we could we can go more original than a storm, I would say, but it's a storm? Victoria (45:34) Yeah. But it was nice because then it was like well and then and I was seeing this person individually, but like every time they would bring it up, they would refer to it as like the storm when the storm was happening, when the you know, when the storm was happening, while we were in the storm, you know, the da da da before the storm, after the storm. Like so it also gives like a good reference point 'cause you can also kind of like we know what we're talking about. Chris (46:01) Super important because the storm is what we hate. The storm is what we resent. The storm is what we hide from, run from. The storm is what we put walls up about. It's not your spouse. It's what you Victoria (46:21) I know. Chris (46:22) and they create together, right? And we don't think that way. We just like, my god, if she would just shut the hell up and listen to me, we'd be fine. Or if he would just freaking show up and even have a conversation with me, we'll be better. Like, you know, there's all these things. But no, it's the storm, man. It's what you and I have created in our cyclical patterns together. And that's just a a total switched perspective, right? Totally different idea. So yeah, I f I feel like we could go and and talk e extensively about these things, but I I'll tell you we need to kinda, you know, begin wrapping down this whole month of kind of focusing on marriage and these issues. We're gonna do a practical section in a moment. we have plenty of time and and and I got a whole segment seven that we wanna do, but I don't know, man. I hope this stuff is landing because I feel like there's just so much desperation really around the world, Victoria, on on this issue. Like, Victoria (47:23) Mm-hmm. Chris (47:24) you know it should we save our marriage? What w what do we what o is this really over? Like, such a powerful issue. And it's ugly. Listen to the last two shows, man. It not not to stay in a bad marriage 'cause separation sucks or divorce sucks, but Victoria (47:42) Right. Chris (47:43) it sucks. And I can't tell you how many times I hear people stating that they regret it. Victoria (47:53) Say, like, do you have any clients who got divorced from a spouse and then later like remarried that same spouse after they like or like Chris (48:03) yeah. Victoria (48:03) got back to or even if they didn't necessarily do the whole marriage thing again, they still like got back together long term with someone that they had previously been married with because they realized like, you know, that Chris (48:16) I absolutely have. I absolutely have. and and and speaking to the fear that people have about this, like yeah, man. People get separated, will get divorced, have a boyfriend or a girlfriend break up Victoria (48:35) Mm-hmm. Chris (48:37) and get back together with their original spouse. It blows my mind. But there's all forms of it. All forms of it. You know, people separate you know, in our separation show when we were talking with Chelsea, that doesn't mean the marriage has ended. Like I said, at the front end of the show, like what does a successful separation look like? You know. Do you say what? Victoria (48:55) I say that all the time. I say well, I tell people I say separation does not equal divorce. Chris (49:04) Yeah, it's absolutely true. Victoria (49:06) Because the way that I explain it, and I'll talk fast, but like the way I explain it is Chris (49:09) No, kidding. Victoria (49:10) like the same you you approach it the same way that you do an engagement period, right? Like traditionally speaking, or whatever, like an engagement period is for you to engage with each other to figure out can we be married for 57,000 years or whatever, right? And then that's okay. Like people break off engagements because they realize that they don't want to be married to each other, right? So it's the same principle of like when you separate, it's for you to separate so physically so that we can figure out how we what we need to do to address the issues to see if we can make this relationship work. It does not equal divorce. I literally say that all the freaking anyone who's listening to this who's one of my clients will know that I've said it. I say this all the time. Chris (49:59) Victoria, I gotta tell you, I I want to give you a high compliment right there. That is the clinically and personally the most brilliant thing I've heard you ever say. I will take that for the rest of my career. Okay? Marital separation is like marital engagement. That bl you just blew my mind. You blew my mind. And honestly, you can't be more accurate. That's exactly what it is. Victoria (50:29) Thank you. Chris (50:30) It's like you boy meets girl, you know, you you meet, greet, date, you you you partner exclusively, and you get engaged and you get married. Well, if you're married and you step back one step, what is that step? It's engagement. I mean that's brilliant. Victoria (50:52) I I literally had someone was it today or was it Chris (50:55) Mm-hmm. Victoria (50:56) yes so then I can't remember someone this week. Okay, it's Thursday, so it's been four days. Someone this week I was I was Chris (51:03) Indeed. Victoria (51:04) literally talking to them about how they were they were making a comment about how people these days stay engaged for like three two, three years before they get married. I'm like that's not a bad thing. Like if it Is if they want to stay engaged Chris (51:22) Yeah. Victoria (51:24) because they wanna make sure that they are making the right decision to like sign their name on a piece of paper to like stand up in front of whoever they believe in higher power and their f family and friends and say, I'm committing myself to this person for eternity or for as long as I shall live, you know, or whatever, till death do us part, that like they're Chris (51:46) Yeah. Victoria (51:46) making a valid decision so that they don't end up in Sodoma's law office. In you know, in twelve years Chris (51:51) Right. Yeah. Victoria (51:54) or something. Chris (51:55) Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely on point. All right, we do a section where we like to offer a practical question. This is a segment towards the end of our show where we talk to you directly through the microphone, through the screen, through our heart to yours directly as though we're in therapy with you. and so I'm gonna use the the first one. do when you're so Ma'am, when you're with your husband, or sir, when you're with your wife, I'm asking you to clearly communicate what hurts the most before deciding the relationship cannot be repaired. Right? Like what what happens in that relationship? What happens when you're communicating Oftentimes you say what you're mad about, you say what you're resentful about, you say what you want the other person to do, you say what the other person's not wanting to do, you say a lot of things about the other person. But what you're not oftentimes communicating is what hurts you the most. If you can't be vulnerable in your relationship to your spouse to demonstrate clearly what hurts what you feel, yes, sir, what you feel, then you haven't given it a good shot. And that is usually what you feel that has nothing to do with the other person. I have felt lonely all my life. I have felt insecure for many, many years. I'm now post divorcing, right? So it's like I look I I am very anxious about having this happen to me again. If you're in a second marriage and you haven't made that clear with yourself and then communicated that to your spouse, my goodness gracious, you are not being honest because I'm pretty much sure that's universal. So communicate what really hurts, and that's gonna be hard because it's vulnerable. Right? Practical question number one. Victoria, what you got? Victoria (54:00) Sorry, I would also like to add an addendum to what Chris said and just say that we want to be inclusive here. So it's not just man and wife, whoever you are married to. Chris. Okay. Chris (54:13) Fair enough, absolutely. Yep. Victoria (54:16) sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you when you were in the middle of that. So I just waited until the end. Okay, but as far as for me, a lot of times you might be wondering like if You as a spouse are acting on your years of pain and hurt and suffering, even, or are we currently looking at the reality of what your relationship is as a whole? And so what some of the things I want you to think about is like what steps can we take to examine that and look at that? If that means couples therapy as well as being involved in your own individual therapy. If that means sitting down and having these tough conversations with your not only yourself, but even with your spouse to see like, you know, what am I basing this thought off of? We can even add in some Socratic questioning in there, you know, like what evidence do I have for this thought? What evidence do I have against this thought? And is it again, is it from Years of things that were there, maybe even prior to your relationship, kind of what Chris was saying, or is it more of like the current reality of your relationship? Chris (55:29) Gotcha. I'm gonna cover these other two just real quick because they're important. I won't expound upon them, but more practical questions. If your partner genuinely changed, would you still want the marriage to end? And if that's the case, then you need to genuinely change. How about that? S secondly, if your marriage could become emotionally safe again, would you choose to stay? And the word if is in the front of that sentence, and I'm going to say to you, it absolutely can. Whether it will or not, I have no idea. But it can. Okay? So what I kind of really want to end this whole month on is look, there these are these are hard topics. you might even be tearful throughout this. conversation and if if you are I don't I don't want you to be alone. You need friends. You need people. Don't be alone and isolated in a in a in a bad relationship or a bad marriage. It you've got to have outside support. Because there's a lot of hope about this. There there's a lot of reality that people people absolutely recover. Victoria, I think people feel so desperate like we're doomed and it's ow golly, it's just not true, man. Victoria (56:49) Yeah, no. Well, and I also was gonna say, like a lot of times hope people think about hope in a very w I don't know what to say, weird way. Like sometimes hope can be like daunting in a sense because people are afraid that if they have hope that like they'll be further like the disappointment will be higher or something along those lines. But like I would really challenge people to like try not to think that way, that hope can really be like an impactful change in a marriage and what can get you to lead to make that change and like address the things that are happening inside marriage. Chris (57:31) I mean it's it's wild to me. you know, people would are probably arguing with our thoughts right now in their head, like, what do you mean things can change? I I don't want to get divorced. you're right. I I I didn't get married to get divorced. People desperately fear getting divorced. But it hasn't Victoria (57:45) Right. Chris (57:45) changed, man. It's it's been it's been thirty years that we've been together. Forty years. I mean, I've had people in couples counseling, fifty years they've been married, right? And and I've lived an entire lifetime with this dude and it's not gonna be any different. I am now older, I am sixty years old, and I want a new life. Okay, wait a minute. You cannot tell me that when you're twenty years old, you and or your partner are not different now that you are forty years old. Okay. You it hasn't been the same the whole time. I can promise you, as a matter of fact, I love this quote. We've talked about it before, right, Victoria. Relationships are either growing or they're dying. It's like a plant. They're never staying the same. Victoria (58:31) Yeah, can I say something? So I saw a Chris (58:33) Sure. Victoria (58:34) th a quote or a a little thing or whatever the other day that was talking about this this girl or lady or whoever, this person was asking their grandfather who had been married to their grandma for like six forever, like sixty something plus years Chris (58:49) Right. Victoria (58:50) or whatever. And she was asking him, like, Hey, like how you know, like how do you make it work? Right? How do you make it last this long? And she's expecting him to say, you know, like buying random flowers and going on dates and communication and like blah blah blah. And he goes, I can't this isn't gonna be exact, but he goes something like, Well, I didn't fall in love with just one person. And he and she's like, Why? And he's like, Well, your grandma changed every so often, like, and I just have to keep falling in love with who sh how she changes and like, you know, how her interests change and how like Who she you know, we don't I even say like I married my husband fresh out of grad school. Like I am not the same person that I was fresh out of grad school with like my first big girl job as I am now with Chris (59:43) I mean not even close, right? Victoria (59:46) a four year old, you know, I ha we have our own house, like we ha you know, like all these things are happening. Like, and I think it just goes to show that, like, you know, and I just thought that was kind of cool because like Yeah, you're not just falling in love with one person. Like you're falling in love with the person as they change and like readjusting your own expectations and your own marriage dynamics and communication, whatever to keep up with them. And they're doing the same for you because you're not the same person. Like it goes both ways. Chris (1:00:22) so glad. As a matter of fact, Neil, let's go ahead and do what we call the shrink wrap up. But Victoria, that's that's a perfect thing to completely wrap up. the entire month of this show because people live in fear with that statement. I hear that all the time. We have fallen out of love and I don't know anything else to do and I've tried everything else. I mean Victoria just really eloquently described how people fall out of love all the time and you fall back into love. It's it's such a naive statement to think that you're y you you've not been any different. This is all the same and I don't love you anymore. But I I care about you but I'm not in love. Like that happened. You in and out in and out in and out all the time. Yeah. You eloquently. I love that we we we said that. Neil, what is the let me gather my thoughts here. What what is the the shrink wrap up? Neil (1:01:29) The shrink wrap-up is where basically the panelists go through and give us a quick summary to say to basically recap the show. And with that I I judge you guys profusely, you know, because as the layman I I don't have the experience, I get to feel powerful and judge you guys and who gives the best thing. And I and I do think going back to what you said, after you feel love, you then have to choose love. You talk about I don't feel in love anymore. Continuing to love someone is a choice you make after the emotions fall. And so I just want to keep that in mind because if you don't choose to continue to love the person, you're not gonna love the person anymore because emotions fade. Chris (1:02:09) Dear God, Victoria, he's gonna kick our little tail in this little shrink wrap-up. Can he vote for himself? Is that possible? It's not. Neil (1:02:15) No. Absolutely not. Victoria (1:02:15) No. I'll go f I'll go first though if you want me to. Chris (1:02:19) Okay, ten four. Victoria (1:02:22) So I'm just gonna say that I go back to Yeah, I'm just gonna say that separation does not equal divorce and that things in marriages can be addressed and can be fixed and things can change, people can change. Again, and unless it's from that, as Chris referred to to a short list of things why people choose to get married that are, you know, have good reason. Then yeah, like things can work out and you know, have a l have a little bit of that thing we call hope. Okay. Chris (1:03:08) Alright, my shrink wrap-up is I have so much to say. Neil says keep it short. I promise I will. Marriage is beautiful. Victoria (1:03:19) Mm. Chris (1:03:20) Separation sucks. Divorce sucks even more. Marriage doesn't always feel beautiful. It's hard. That's the truth that we don't tell children. And oftentimes that's just getting married children. I was married young in my twenties and have a lot to learn. But you know. Along that journey that you and she or she and you, sir, have created together is a beautiful path that you'll have with you for the rest of your life, even if you get separated and divorced. And not all marriages need to be continued when it's abusive or when it's a terrible situation. But you know, this is plaguing our country in the United States, divorce rates are horrible. Around the world it's not much different. This affects a lot of people. I grew up in a divorced family. I wish I was still married to the same person personally. Clinically I see the the blood poured out in pain in people's most decompensated state. I do have a lean to stay together because we find that if you reconcile, and as Neil even said, choose love, choose to change your internal process. That you change what is the problem. And the problem isn't many of the things you talk about or get frustrated about or have resentments about the problem is the cyclical pattern, the interaction of what happens. Don't be alone. Check out EFT. Check out Help therapy, your priest, your pastor, your rabbi. Be with people. It's worth it. And I'll tell you a very powerful words that a personal friend of mine and it it's three three words that I heard all throughout the very difficult time that my marriage was struggling. And I ended the book with it, and I'll end this shrink wrap up with it. And that is very simple. Every time I would talk to him, he was so awesome. My buddy, my boy, Adrian is his name. Adrian made the statement every time that our conversations were ending when I was stressed out in a in a mess. And so I'll say these to you. You can do it. Victoria (1:05:49) Cheese. Chris (1:05:52) How'd I do, Victoria? Neil (1:05:52) I I gotta give this one to Chris today. I mean that w that Victoria (1:05:57) What I was literally playing on my phone 'cause you were just kept babbling on, which I think is all great, but that was way more than just a wrap up. Neil (1:06:09) Yeah, that was that was Chris (1:06:10) Well Neil (1:06:10) like an intro outro kind of thing. It's a little bit different. We're gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna Victoria (1:06:13) Not yet, dude. Neil (1:06:14) start setting a timer, like twenty seconds. So but no, Chris, I think what you said was very eloquent. I think it I think it hits it on the head. I'm not gonna discount Victoria's idea because, you know, I think once again, you go into separation. It doesn't mean it's the end. It's up to you to make that choice to then fall back in love, get back into it. So it's good for Victoria C, but I think Chris, I think you did a great great wrap up. I think it hits everything on the head. Victoria (1:06:35) That's okay. Neil (1:06:38) So Chris (1:06:38) Yeah, it's just it's just such Neil (1:06:39) Awesome. Good job, Chris. Chris (1:06:40) a big issue in and it does. It affects so many people, man. I I I could I could talk about it for a half hour, Victoria, sorry. I tried to be short. But it's it's it's Victoria (1:06:49) Look, you probably could've done this whole episode by yourself. Chris (1:06:52) Whether you're in a family where this happens around you or you're the the man or the woman or your your gay lesbian populations, all man, when you get close to people and you tear apart, it's it it makes my heart hurt for for for people that are going through this, you know. I see it in my office and it's it's tough. I I hope that we've done some good here today. Truly. Victoria (1:07:19) No, I think today was a good episode. Chris (1:07:21) Which I guess is ending. So Neil, thank you for the dub. We he's keeping Victoria (1:07:25) Yeah. Chris (1:07:25) score. We'll see who who gets it in the end in the friendly competition that it is, Miss Victoria. All right. We're getting out of here. You guys take care. Stay well. And we'll see you next Victoria (1:07:35) Aye all. Chris (1:07:35) week with the review show.