Before making one of life’s most permanent decisions, couples standing on the brink of separation owe it to themselves to pause and unpack a crucial question: are you trying to end your marriage, or are you simply trying to end the pain? In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, our panel explores the deep emotional landscapes of marital distress, helping listeners differentiate between chronic exhaustion and true incompatibility. Utilizing the lens of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), we discuss how the enemy is often not your partner, but rather the negative interaction cycle you’ve trapped yourselves in. While acknowledging that divorce is sometimes necessary and healthy—particularly in cases of abuse, unaddressed addiction, or repeated infidelity—this episode provides practical reflection questions to help you evaluate your relationship with dignity and intent. Whether the ultimate path forward is intentional reconciliation or letting go with grace, this conversation offers the clarity needed to make a thoughtful, deliberate decision rather than an impulsive one.
Tune in to see if your Marriage is Really Over Through a Therapist’s Eyes.Before making one of life’s most permanent decisions, couples standing on the brink of separation owe it to themselves to pause and unpack a crucial question: are you trying to end your marriage, or are you simply trying to end the pain? In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, our panel explores the deep emotional landscapes of marital distress, helping listeners differentiate between chronic exhaustion and true incompatibility. Utilizing the lens of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), we discuss how the enemy is often not your partner, but rather the negative interaction cycle you’ve trapped yourselves in. While acknowledging that divorce is sometimes necessary and healthy—particularly in cases of abuse, unaddressed addiction, or repeated infidelity—this episode provides practical reflection questions to help you evaluate your relationship with dignity and intent. Whether the ultimate path forward is intentional reconciliation or letting go with grace, this conversation offers the clarity needed to make a thoughtful, deliberate decision rather than an impulsive one.
Tune in to see if your Marriage is Really Over Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How do you know whether your marriage is truly over—or simply deeply wounded?
- What decisions should every couple make before considering divorce?
- Are you trying to end your marriage, or are you trying to end the pain?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.gottman.com/blog/everything-turns-into-an-argument/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12506414
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
Chapter 2 | The most effective marriage counseling is pre-marital counseling.
Understanding healthy relationships before crisis often prevents later disconnection.
Chapter 15 | The day you stop focusing on your marriage as the priority relationship…
Healthy marriages require intentional investment throughout life.
Chapter 21 | Learn how to fight well through discussions.
Conflict itself is not the problem; destructive conflict patterns are.
Chapter 22 | Couples need to develop a “race” in the apology/forgiveness cycle…
Repair is one of the strongest predictors of relationship longevity.
Chapter 40 | Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust…
Feeling emotionally understood is foundational to reconnecting.Chapter 2 | The most effective marriage counseling is pre-marital counseling.
Understanding healthy relationships before crisis often prevents later disconnection.
Chapter 15 | The day you stop focusing on your marriage as the priority relationship…
Healthy marriages require intentional investment throughout life.
Chapter 21 | Learn how to fight well through discussions.
Conflict itself is not the problem; destructive conflict patterns are.
Chapter 22 | Couples need to develop a “race” in the apology/forgiveness cycle…
Repair is one of the strongest predictors of relationship longevity.
Chapter 40 | Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust…
Feeling emotionally understood is foundational to reconnecting.
Chapter 1.11 | Accepting things is a part of your emotional growth.
Acceptance helps couples distinguish between problems they can solve and realities they must learn to navigate.
Chapter 1.33 | Realize change does not happen to us; it happens with us.Chapter 1.11 | Accepting things is a part of your emotional growth.
Acceptance helps couples distinguish between problems they can solve and realities they must learn to navigate.
Chapter 1.33 | Realize change does not happen to us; it happens with us.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #362 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Hello and good evening, good morning, good afternoon, whenever you might be checking out through a therapist's eyes. We are on episode 362. We're coming to you on July the 2nd, at least in the United States. We got a big birthday of the country coming up in two days. I want to thank all of our military men and women, especially a little say seaman over there, ⁓ a little sailor rather over there in in Japan, ⁓ Japan. That is my son if you haven't listened to the show. we are going to be talking about a really wild topic. ⁓ the title of episode 362 is Before You File for Divorce, Is Your Marriage Really Over? What every couple should know. ⁓ and the and the the the origin story of this particular episode is I was approached ⁓ at Metrolina. That's our parent company. Metrolina Psychotherapy Associates is the full name. And they They ⁓ the good folks a lawyer, I'll reserve the name until they're on, but ⁓ wanted to kind of use Metrolana as a resource and and I ha had a meeting and talked with them. They want to come on the show. So we got a couple of really cool family lawyers that are gonna talk about what they see in the courtroom, what they see in their offices. call it through a lawyer's eyes in addition to on a through a therapist's eyes, right? So so we're bookending this and and talking about divorce and marriage and some some some real hard things in the context of what you see in lawyers' offices. So that's the origin story of the show today. ⁓ If you're new to the show, we have three questions that we ask you to reflect on while we're going through the show. Today, before you file for divorce, is your marriage really over? Reflection question one, how do you know whether your marriage is truly over or simply deeply wounded? There is a difference. And two, What decisions should every couple make before considering divorce? Number three, are you trying to end your marriage or are you trying to end the pain? Provocative questions, I might say. On through with therapize, where you get insights usually from a panel in your home or in your car, knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. We have John with some family stuff that he's dealing with. Victoria who's in the mountains, leaving you with me. Yep. Me. Chris Gazdick, but also the lovely Casey Morgan. How are you, dear? Kasie (02:32) Thank you so much. I'm doing well. Welcome everyone. Glad you're with us today. Chris (02:39) And we ask you to do your job. We provide myths or we provide information to blow up stereotypes and myths about mental health and substance abuse. We ⁓ want to disseminate information about all of this as well. Your job is to click subscribe. Help us really grow the show. It helps really if you take an individual episode and send it to a friend, send it to a family member that will hear you, listen to you, value your view and listen to the show, and hopefully you help us get our word out to so many more people because. We are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day, and this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. We do this for a living, and we want to share with you what we have known through that experience. Contact through therapisties.com. Good way to get up with us. We do YouTube lives on Thursday, and it's a good way to see us live and interact and give us some time some some comments. We'll embed them into the show because this is the human emotional experience, which Casey, we deliver we endeavor to do what? Kasie (03:38) To figure this out together. Chris (03:40) Right, right. What do you think about those questions, man? How do we know whether your marriage is truly over or simply deeply wounded? What decisions should every couple make before considering divorce? And are you trying to end your marriage or are you trying to end the pain? Kasie (03:58) Yeah, I mean, these are very provocative questions. I think it's something to really guide our conversation today. I'm looking forward to getting into it on ⁓ especially since ⁓ I'm a divorced person myself. I think it's good to have some reflective moments to be able to talk through some of this stuff. So I think that that is ⁓ something that is near and dear to my heart because, you know, try as we might, not every relationship works out. And yeah, let's talk about it. Chris (04:29) It's absolutely true, you know. I mean, and I've I've kind of made my own situation kind of ⁓ aware publicly on a show as well. You know, divorcing is a hell of a thing and you know, I'm in a new state of mind of dating. I guess you're a little ahead of me, Casey, in that the process. you know, it's a hell of a ride. And and you know, I I really don't ⁓ push my book very, very much on the show. ⁓ kind of want to this time because, you know, to be honest with you, I was writing that book. and and my ma you know, guys in my mastermind and friends and you know, family and people that are close in my circles, you know, know the the difficulty that I was going through. I call it a decade of hell. It was a really long time where I stood steadfast and, you know, worked with things and yeah, I wrote that book, Casey, right in the middle of all that, I think you know, right? You know? I mean those those words in Kasie (05:25) Mm-hmm. Chris (05:28) And through a therapistize, reunderstand your marriage becoming your best as a spouse is the title of the book. And you can now know with this episode. I won't talk about it on the show very often, ⁓ but you can know if you're listening and catching this episode. That book is forged through a lot of painful personal experience mixed with my very deep clinical knowledge of having been doing therapy since nineteen ninety-seven while doing my own process. in addition to that clinical mind, that's what that book is really wrapped with. ⁓ and ⁓ I'm proud of it. I think it has a lot of of of really good points in it. And ⁓ on the show notes and towards the show end or whatnot, I want to pepper some of those chapters in. ⁓ 'cause that wasn't just I mean, Casey they didn't they didn't they didn't come ba easily in writing all that. You know. Kasie (06:26) Yeah, I guarantee it. I mean th th the the truth is is that, you know, ⁓ healing and hurt, they don't have to be mutually exclusive. And I think we're gonna discover as we go through this topic today that, you know, you really can plant seeds for tomorrow, even though today might not feel great. So I think it's a good show. ⁓ I'm looking forward to getting started and diving in because ⁓ this is something that's near and dear to both of us. Chris (06:56) And I tell you this, I don't I don't know what your take is. I think I proposed it in our conversation as I've designed the progression of our content today. And I think I want to do it just right from the front end as we're wrapping Casey, you and I, on our own clinical view and personal experience and peppering that in a little bit. As a therapist, what you know how do you handle couples that are in this space, right? Like, you know, what What biases do you have? I'm curious and I'll go first because I want people and and clients and I'll I'll make this ⁓ very overt when I'm working with a couple, you know, like I don't get a vote, okay? I don't have an agenda. I really you know, in walking with you very humbly in a in a journey that you're on with your process and everybody's situation is really uniquely your own. I do have a role as a therapist, I I feel, to point out as best I can what makes sense to be healthy, what's unhealthy, what's ⁓ helpful, what's unhelpful, and and I make no bones about that. And so ⁓ because of that, I do personally have a bend. I have a heavy lean. And the lean is towards let's figure these marital issues out together. Like I love doing Marital and couples counseling because of what we know clinically. Clinically, we know if you can get through and grow through the the hurts and and and the pain and come out on the other end with a different set of patterns together, you're way better off. Like I don't even think it's close. Like the the kids are healthier, your community is healthier, you grow and learn so much. But the fear and the pain that people get into is so strong that sometimes we can't overcome that. And that's fine. I'm also going to make a very clear distinction. Everything that I just said does not apply in my clinical view about marriage and staying or not to domestic violence. When you're physically or emotionally in a space where you're fearful, that's a problem. And that does not apply to anything that I just previously said. So Casey, I'm curious how you deal with that or you know, if you have a lean or you know, where you're at. Kasie (09:18) Yeah, so ⁓ I I'm definitely pre marriage if possible, right? Like I believe in the foundational principles of marriage. I am happily remarried myself and I I definitely like would vote to stay together if that was ⁓ a real thing. But like you said, we don't get a vote in that. ⁓ but I do try to gauge where we are starting from because ⁓ through some discernment practice, which is a theoretical orientation to couples counseling as well, ⁓ when we're trying to discern like what is actually going on or what's before us, I think that there are Three different types of people that can show up, right? The ones that are in end that are like, I'm committed to this marriage, I'm all the way in and I want to do whatever it takes to fix it. There are those that are in out, meaning they're still in the marriage and they're willing to try, but if some things don't appropriately kind of adjust or modify or change, then they could be on their way out of the marriage. And then there are people that show up to the office that are out out. meaning that they are not engaged and they have checked out and they may only be here because this is the last item on the agenda. I think there's strength in all of those positions. And I think that I can work with all of those positions, but I do try to gauge where we're starting from as a point of reference to see if we can, you know, work on some of those building blocks that are missing to be able to approach. Chris (10:43) Yes, I think. Kasie (10:57) ⁓ marriage and couples therapy in a different way. a lot of the couples that I see are kind of surprised because the first ⁓ exercise that we do together is I give them an assignment to go home and think about ⁓ themselves and what they do individually that could be impacting their current relationship. ⁓ because it's real easy to have a microscope perspective where we can put the other person on trial and see every fault that that person has. It's a lot harder. Chris (11:27) People love to do that. They Kasie (11:29) It's a lot harder. Chris (11:29) love to do that. Kasie (11:30) It's a lot harder to have a mirror perspective and look at ourself and think, What am I doing right now that may be contributing negative negatively to my relationship? So So yeah. Chris (11:41) You know what's funny, Casey? I'm gonna be honest. We can pepper in a little bit of our own experience. We're we do that, we're pretty genuine on the show. You know, when I when I realized that we were in marital trouble, ⁓ it took me like a year or two at least to get to that question, right? Two years. And I feel like I'm pretty self aware and whatever. But then I spent eight years, in fairness, on what am I doing? Kasie (12:01) wow. Chris (12:09) You know, what it what is that mirror looking like? But but it occurred to me listening to you there, Casey, yeah, two years before I got to really asking those those questions. It's hard. Kasie (12:10) Yeah. It's hard. It's it's very hard, especially when you've experienced hurt and you are dealing with a lot of pain. ⁓ and there are things that are done inadvertently or even on purpose in relationships because both are true. You know, we both do things that ⁓ contribute or n or impact it negatively. And so to truly have some self-reflection and some introspection on what it is that you may be doing that could be sabotaging parts of the marital contract as well is really hard. ⁓ especially in instances of things like infidelity, et cetera. You know, when appears that one person is more of at fault than the other, ⁓ it can feel, you know, very one-sided to both to both parties. And so it's important to step back and take a 30,000 foot of viewpoint of it and really start from the basis because the truth is is that ⁓ when there are things that coincide in a relationship you're not the problem and they're not the problem the problems are the problems and that's where we have to get to is that the problems are the problems Chris (13:29) It's so funny. I I reflect back, you know, we've been doing episodes for a while and the ex co host Craig Graves. Shout out to Craig, hey buddy. This show wouldn't be in existence if it wasn't for for him. ⁓ always appreciative of him for that. But he was he was going through a divorce when we started this show as well. and ⁓ you know he he was really powerful in the way that he presented that Casey and he he kinda he didn't throw himself under the bus but he he was very genuine and he explained how you know they were in and out of their relationship for a little while and and and he remembers very clearly you know when they stepped into a couple's counseling office and he's like, All right, finally here we go. They are gonna figure out what the heck that she is doing and get her, tell her, help her. This is woo fantastic. We made it here. We're going. And ⁓ I know the therapist that he went to. I referred him them to him. And Jeff Shook is the guy. Jeff's an amazing therapist. ⁓ I'm sure he's retired now and to call him. Craig walked out of that office, Casey, he's like, ⁓ my gosh, Jeff told me five things about me and I was like, Whoa, what is going on here with me? You know? You go to a couples counseling first, don't you? thinking my spouse is gonna get figured out. That's the way you go. Kasie (14:59) yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you're you're one or the other, right? Either we go in there thinking that our spouse is gonna get figured out or we go in there and think this is gonna be a two on one situation and I'm about to be berated for an hour on on the other side of the mm-hmm. Yeah, on the on the other side because you know the the truth is is that people are more self aware than I think that we sometimes give them credit for. Chris (15:14) Fair. That's the that is the other side of it, yeah. Kasie (15:28) Right. Then we even give ourselves credit for. We know ⁓ ultimately when we have done things that have negatively impacted the situation that we're in. We know. ⁓ even when I make a sarcastic remark, because I know that you know, if you've listened to this show, I do make sarcastic remarks sometimes and things like that. And it happens in my real life. I I can guarantee that I am the same person on the show. Chris (15:50) Hm. Nah. Kasie (15:57) That I am with everybody that encounters me because just who I am as a person. ⁓ but you know, I I know when I have said something that has come off sharp. I know when I have said things that were out of anger or just out of spite, even because it happens, because we're human beings. So we know when we've done things. Chris (16:00) No, I can attest to that. Kasie (16:22) ⁓ so when we go to a therapy situation, sometimes it can be almost like being called into the principal's office. You know, what is my partner gonna say about me in the context of this space that is gonna make me feel shame, guilt, embarrassment, what have you. And so it can be difficult, no matter if you're the person that feels justified or if you're the person who feels victimized, it can still feel all of those emotions. So yeah. Chris (16:50) You know what's funny, Casey? I was just listening to you though, and I'm I'm not disagreeing, but I'm pushing back a little bit as well and re adding a layer. Cause I think that a lot of times why this topic is so important, you know, before you file for divorce, the question mark, right, is your marriage really over? Because I I find that people in some ways are very much not aware. You know, they they are thoughtful about their behaviors. You're also pretty intuitive, Casey, and spend a lot of time thinking about these types of things. Kind of the benefit of our job. I think a lot of times people spend a lot of time trying not to think about these things. And they're very purposeful about that. And that I I think that's another of the opposite side of it. Because what we're experiencing in our marriage is the let's be clear. This is the closest relationship that you can have. there is no closer human relationship. You could be pretty close with your kids, but if you get too close, we call that enmeshment, right? That's a clinical term that's like yuck. ⁓ you could be really, really close with your bestie. They know everything about you, so to speak, right? Casey, boys don't have besties, you do know that, right? Kasie (17:58) Mm-hmm. Yes, you do. We've already had this discussion. You have besties. Chris (18:12) No. No, we don't. We have best friends. We have buddies. Nevertheless Nevertheless, they mean they know you well. Your boys in your foxhole know you well. But the fact of the matter is you cannot be closer to anybody than your your your partner for life, your sex mate, your your your best friend, your close p companion. You marry and you're you're so when you're that close Kasie (18:18) Okay. Chris (18:40) Closer relationship, the other truth is you feel it the most. It's the most intense experience with the things that you're fearful about, with the family of origin that you've had, with the patterns that you engage conflict with and your ability to trust or distrust people and all the other things, right? So I don't know that people, Casey, are as insightful all the time about these things just because it's run so deep. Kasie (19:11) Yeah, I mean, I to an extent I would agree that they're not always insightful, but I also think that ⁓ sometimes I think it's a cop-out, right? Like I I am very challenging oriented in practice when it comes to can't couples therapy. ⁓ because I I do think that oftentimes people, not every time, but the majority of the time. Some person has come to the other person and has said, This hurts me in some way. This makes me feel unseen. This makes me feel this. Like they have said and verbalized, I do not like this. And I think that people who claim to be unaware sometimes are more so just entrenched in the dynamics of the interaction. So they either block out, put aside. you know, bulldoze over, talk through, ⁓ or turn the tables on the person that's saying that because they're hurt too. You know, and two hurt people just continue to hurt each other if there isn't a break in that pattern or cycle, which I know we're gonna talk about later on. But but I do think Chris (20:27) But what's interesting there to jump in if I may, ⁓ I've never had anybody say, Hey, I'm really not aware of these things. What's going on with me? I don't know. I mean it probably happens in some forms, but way more commonly, Casey, I think people come at it thinking they are when they're actually not. Right? You're unaware that you're unaware of what's going on because it's in subconsciousness. Kasie (20:53) Yeah, or they want to speak for their spouse and say, I know that she gets anxious sometimes. Like I know that he gets hot headed or or mean tempered or mean spirited around this topic and whatever. And then they're and they're completely off because they're not having real conversations. They're having build ups to contempt-filled language where they're basically fueling each other's fire for conflict as opposed to Chris (20:56) Right. Right. Kasie (21:20) trying to talk to each other for understanding purposes. Chris (21:23) Right. Yeah, no, I absolutely ⁓ there's just a lot there. So so listen, we're we're already twenty minutes into this conversation and I I'm I was telling Casey before we we popped on, if you are a regular listener to our our program, you may kinda see how we have some flow and some typical flow. We I don't want to rush this conversation. So we're we're we're going to kind of get to things today and what we don't get to because I don't want to rush our conversation, we're gonna bookend and we're gonna kinda continue this conversation. John I'm sure will be back with us and I'm sure he has a lot to say about this as well as Victoria after we talk to the lawyers through the month. So we've got a theme here and if you listen to this episode ⁓ what is this Neil 362 6364 episode 365 you will definitely want to tune in because we're just gonna continue this this conversation. Because let's get into this little first segment, Casey then and And highlight of course something that I don't think anybody's gone it's not like a a reckoning or shocking to anybody when we say this really deserves a lot of deliberation. I I you know, I I I think people know that. But this maybe goes into what we're talking about here back and forth a little bit, people being aware of what they're doing and then not being aware of what they're doing. You know, can you so here's a question. Can you deliberately deliberate on something that is really profound if you're not really fully aware of what's going on in your subconsciousness about it? Kasie (22:55) Yeah. Yeah, that that was very wordy. I think it's Yeah, I I no Chris (23:11) can be that way. Let me say it again. Can you really ki no you don't, okay. Fine. Kasie (23:20) No, I hear what you're saying. It's I I think that yes, it subconsciously we kn may not be aware of the magnitude of what's really happening, right? We may not be aware of the magnitude. It's hard to think through it completely if we don't know the extent of which it exists. Right. So I and so I do agree with that. I I think that there's a lot of factors at play here. One, it's way too convenient to just give up on a marriage now. You know, like I mean, it's just, it's very commonplace. It's very easy. Irreconcilable differences is like the number one thing that gets put down on divorce paperwork now and and things like that. We've made it, you know, completely ⁓ cultural that if you don't like the situation that you're in, you just leave the situation. ⁓ you know, marriage. Yeah. Chris (24:14) I like that statement. We've made it cultural. Yeah. Kasie (24:18) It's pretty cultural, you know, and it's very prevalent and we see people do it all the time and there's annulments and everything else that's been added into the vernacular. So I think, you know, it's just it's super simple. If you don't want to be married anymore, you don't have to be a married person. ⁓ and that's all well and good. No judgment, not saying anybody's situation is different or anything like that. but because of those things, I think the effort that it takes to do the hard work to maintain a marriage that feels fragile, that feels broken, that feels whatever adjective you want to throw in there, is less likely to occur if both people are not invested in thinking about it from all the way through to answer your question. Chris (25:07) And you know what, there's a big word that you just used. B O T H. Kasie (25:13) Mm-hmm. Both. Chris (25:15) You know, that's one of the things that I've I've I've seen, you know, in my work and in my experience, you know, it's like y you you've gotta match the the energy and the pace together and when it gets out of balance, I mean it's out of balance. I mean, you know, I know in my own experience, like I said, those first two years, ⁓ man, I just went you know, when I when my marriage was in in ⁓ distress. I mean I I panicked bad, hard. I mean I've going through articles and not losing sleep and just going cra I mean you know I just went ninety thousand miles an hour and probably just straight ran her over, you know. ⁓ and so you you've gotta have both that can be in pace together. And if you don't have both, yeah, yeah, I think you're inherently in trouble. Kasie (26:10) Yeah. I I knew that my marriage was in trouble when my ex-husband when I approached him about counseling and he said, I don't believe in therapy and your wife is a therapist. So I think that that's giving red flag. Chris (26:23) Yeah. Kasie (26:27) Knowing what I know now about the whole situation, I understood his hesitation and hesitancy in that. ⁓ but I think that, you know, there was just a lot there. So I think it kind of leads us to that place where both people have to be at least willing to move forward in a direction. Right. And if we're moving forward in a direction that is where our goal is to try and even if it's the last ditch effort to make anything happen for us here in the last moments, let's move forward to together in that direction. ⁓ I often ask couples, give me at least three sessions. You know, give me three sessions. ⁓ that's what I ask. You know, it's a commitment. I know. Chris (27:11) Yeah, right. Yeah. Kasie (27:17) Give me three sessions. Let us get through some of the introductory stuff first. You know, like the first session is kind of introductory. Let's get through some of that stuff and let's really give both of you a platform to talk from. Chris (27:30) That's one of my biggest pet peeves. You there's a lot of therapists that won't do couples counseling. I I'm sure you're aware, Casey. They're Nope, nope, don't do it. 'Cause it's too stressful, it's too crazy, it's too wild, you know, and and it's true to think that, you know, couples will come to a therapy experience. I like to say in baseball terms, metaphorically, you know, you're down by seven runs, it's the bottom of the eighth inning and you're, you know, got a two three count and they're like, Okay, well we need to score ten runs here at the last inning to to save this thing and I'm like, yo, that's a you know Kasie (27:59) Yeah, it sounds like Carolina versus West Virginia in the College World Series. That's crazy. What an analogy, Chris. Way to pull that out. Chris (27:59) You know the best kind of marital counselling? Killing me, Casey. You're killing me, girl. God, you're killing me. Kasie (28:10) It doesn't matter. We lost when it mattered, so it doesn't matter. Yeah. It was embarrassing. Yeah. Chris (28:13) Yeah, you lost as well, but that was yeah, that was rough on the Mountaineers. But I mean, you know, that's that's a status of mind and and the thing is is, you know, ⁓ the best marital counseling is premarital counseling. I love saying that sentence. Do you get to do much premarital counseling, Casey? Kasie (28:32) A few times. I I think it can be good. Yeah, I've done it a few times. Yeah. I mean, like I've done it maybe three, three to five total times. And but I think a lot of people go to their church if they're affiliated to get premarital counseling from their pastor to tackle some of the big questions that we don't often think about before we get married, like what's your stance on children, kids, how do you spend money? You know, things like this. Chris (28:34) A few times in twenty years. No, it's very Right. Kasie (29:02) Which I think are all important topics. What what isn't covered a lot, I think, in premarital counseling is how do we conflict and how do we get through things together? On and what do we do when, you know, the first time a person disappoints us. Chris (29:21) And those are poignant questions, which goes back into our segment here of like divorce is a decision that deserves deliberation. ⁓ I already covered the goal of therapy is not to convince any or every couple to stay together. ⁓ it is oftentimes the most healthy thing to do. I do have that lean. But the goal is really to help couples make one of the biggest life decisions thoughtfully rather than emotionally. And that I think is a really important Kasie (29:30) Mm-hmm. Chris (29:51) Concept. You know, are you making this decision emotionally? You almost can't not. Is a bit of the goal, but I'll tell you, when you're in a state of fear, and oftentimes when this stuff's going on, you're in a state of panic. You're not in a state of fear. You're in a state of terror. I mean, there are terrifying realities that somebody's feeling. And that emotion just overwhelms the ability to state or be thoughtful. That's huge right there. Now kneel into that a little bit. Because this little segment's talking about you know deliberating, thinking, being thoughtful. I mean you've heard us talk on the show if you follow the show, you know, how your brain literally takes over your ability to think. The chemicals pour into you. You know, this is this is why I like to say, Casey, when I'm doing Kepler's counseling, that y you know, I'll look at the couple in the eye as I'm talking about emotion focused therapy and and I'll I'll I'll suggest that they don't have a communication problem and the eyes start spinning and heads start cocking and they're like, What is this guy's crazy? But I will follow that up and say that the fact of the matter is you've talked about really complicated things. Kasie (31:13) Yeah. Chris (31:19) Planned and marriage, you talked about religion and made decisions on where you're gonna live and family dynamics and what culture we're gonna have at Christmas morning and blending Christian and Jewish cultures together. I mean you have complicated conversations that are dynamic. And you do that successfully, but when you're triggered, when you're worked up, when you're emotional, you're terror, you can't have a conversation whether you're having coke or Pepsi at the grocery store. Kasie (31:43) Right? Chris (31:44) You can't think y your thinking literally goes offline. So are you able in the state of mind that you're in, ma'am, when you're considering divorce, are you able in the state of mind that you're in, sir, when you're considering divorce to be thoughtful when your emotions are raging? Right? Kasie (32:03) Yeah. That's I mean, it's a difficult process. And so I think that, you know, if they have a quick answer to that, then that's something to be explored as well. But it's really difficult to make decisions when emotionality is high, which is why I tell a lot of people this, not even in the context of couples counseling. Right now you are super emotional. You know, sleep on this, do something different, you know, change a routine, change a pattern to be able to see if you still feel this way at the end of. the next week or something, you know, because when our emotions are heightened, then we often don't use our logical reasoning brain. We are using our survival response, our fight flight freeze mode responses to be able to make decisions for what happens next. And when we're in that, those decisions typically are pretty erratic. Chris (32:58) Mm-hmm. Very erratic. Impulsive, short sighted. They're emotional. They're not thoughtful. They're not logical. Are based on anger. They're based on hurt. They're based on shame. They're based on an ability inability to forgive. They're based on resentments. They're based on fear. Kasie (33:00) Yeah. Yeah. Dear, yeah. Chris (33:20) Right. So when you're deliberating, here's some questions to be thinking about, right? Have have we notice the word we not I takes both. Have we exhausted healthy options? Have we identified the real problems? Before you say yes quickly to that one, pause and deliberate more. Have we communicated honestly? Ooh, not communicated. The word honestly Have we sought professional help? Those are some simple things that you might think about. Let me repeat them. Have we exhausted healthy options? Have we identified the real problems? Have we communicated honestly? Have we sought professional help? Those are some of things to consider and to deliberate and to not be emotional about, but to talk to people that are supporting your marriage. wait, you do have people supporting your marriage, right? Kasie (34:17) Yeah. Chris (34:17) dramatic pause. Cause we need that, guys. Don't do this alone. I mean, how many times you hear me say, Casey, on the show, my gosh, isolation is terrible. You know, use your friends, use your networks, use your supports. Do that with marriage too. I think we're terrified, afraid of that. Kasie (34:25) Yeah, all the time. Yeah, and to kind of go back to one of the questions that you asked, have we identified the real problems? I think that there was an episode ⁓ pretty recently that we had done ⁓ that we have that we did, that we had done. That we did. Chris (34:46) that we have done. I thought you were going to South Park. There was an episode of South Park. Kasie (34:51) There was an episode that we had done ⁓ about how ⁓ a lot of times we get into these mindsets. Sorry, I have sciatica real bad, so I'm having to change positions every school. Thank you. ⁓ I am feeling better, but ⁓ but it just these chairs are terrible. But anyhow, so Chris (34:53) Mm. no, hope you feel better. That sucks. Well it's it's funny because you just changed position and I have a YouTube feed running for you know the background and your previous position had like this big huge bowl of light that made it look like your head was in the middle of the sun and that you were exuding all of this brilliance and now nah you just got like a blind behind you. Kasie (35:22) Yeah. Now we have blinds. Yeah. ⁓ but yeah, so so you know what's interesting though is that w the episode that we had that we did earlier talked about how it's never about the dishes, right? There's always something under laminate of that that is really becoming that up. So when we're talking about real problems, we're not talking about minor inconveniences that tick us off. We're talking about that level of respect, that level of ⁓ being able to trust your partner, ⁓ that level of feeling support, not whether or not our household chores are equitably divided and things like that. Chris (36:18) I'm so glad you're hitting that because that's that's the whole thing about being in discernment. It's really, really hard to truly be in discernment. Discernment's a fancy word. Yes, Casey, I am wordy. But I like words. And discernment is not just like I'm pissed off that my husband has too much towels use and doesn't put in the the laundry bin. I mean but Casey, I think people stay with that level. And get divorced over it. Kasie (36:52) Yeah, I I think it can. It can lead to that. Chris (36:53) That's not discernment. That's not discernment. And I do sit in my therapy office sometimes and just listen to people and I'm like, my gosh. Before okay. Before before I got to be a better therapist, I feel like, you know, I was always pretty good about jumping in 'cause you know a couple's counseling session, it's like he said, she said, she's yelling, he's yelling. My f one of my earliest therapy experiences was, you know, dude brings into therapy and his wife sits down and you know, twenty minutes in Boom, she gets up, she slams out of the room and he looks at me, he's like, this is great, man. I'm really really glad that we're here. ⁓ you know, I think that that worked well and I'm really excited about being here. He and he stopped, he looked at me, he's like, Do you do you think do you think next time you could keep her in the room? Like you know, people will just go to battle in front of us, Casey, right? Now I step in and I don't allow that, frankly. But if I do, and I do a little bit, and you don't hear any deep topics being discussed, what are you here bitched about, fought about, brought up as an issue? You know? Kasie (37:59) Yeah, I it's it's it's so random. Or ⁓ Chris (38:02) You play golf too much and you're never home. okay. Okay. It is random. We're not talking about the real thing. Kasie (38:05) Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that there's that level where they just pick up where they left off at home and they bring it into the therapy space. And then I think it's the other level where we're gonna wait until therapy to drop a nuclear bomb in the situation, right? Like, haven't discussed any of this, and then all of a sudden it's just me, you, and God, and you're gonna just drop a nuke in the middle of session and say, Chris (38:22) Yeah. Love that one. Kasie (38:36) The deepest, darkest thing you've ever done with your spouse present. And that really takes over and that is hard, you know, to navigate, but it happens, you know, and so people save it for therapy instead of talking about it with each other. And so there in that alone lies one of the real problems. If you're not in a space where you are communicating again with the caveat that it's not an abusive space. Chris (38:39) Yeah. Kasie (39:04) Where you are communicating with your spouse, if you are not ⁓ able or don't know how to or are trying to find the words to be able to say something that you feel like is going to be perceived as hurtful, ⁓ waiting, letting it fester, not approaching it in any such form. ⁓ is only going to prolong the issue and make minor inconveniences seem a lot bigger than what they are. So when we don't address the issues that are the real issues, then what we do is we nitpick on the tiny things that just get on our nerves. And I think that's a major issue that couples come into office with a lot, is they harp on the tiniest of issues because they're afraid. Chris (39:47) Right. Kasie (39:57) to approach the bigger issues. They're afraid to approach something and say, This is hurtful in this way. ⁓ it's scary. Chris (40:05) It's really scary, Casey. It's scary. You know, I I did. I said I wanted to highlight my book, and I want there to be hope about this process, you know, because there's several chapters that I wrote about these things, and you know, you really can learn how to do this. The fear is that we're doomed. And we're talking about arguing all the time, stupid little things here and stupid little things there. It's kind of like You know, look, episode or t or chapter twenty-one in Through a Therapist Eyes, Reunderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse, the the the title is Learn How to Fight Well Through Discussions. Right? Conflict itself is not the problem. Destructive conflict patterns are the problem. And people don't talk about the patterns. You know, as even as a young therapist, I used to make the statement, Casey, like if we talk about how we talk about things more than talk about topics, we'll be way better off. Kasie (40:43) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (41:02) Now that might be a bit wordy, but let me say it again. If we talk about how we talk about things more than talk about specific things, we're probably going to be way better off. I think that's key. Yeah. Kasie (41:04) It is wordy, but I like it. Yeah. I I also think it's important for the a person to consider how was conflict managed when you were in your formative years of life, right? Were you taught Chris (41:25) ⁓ now you're in it. Kasie (41:27) Yeah, were you taught that emotions were not important? Were you taught that kids are to be seen and not heard? Were you taught to express yourself openly and honestly, regardless of how it feels to the other person receiving the information? However you were taught, whatever modeling you were given, whatever, and I'm not blaming your parents or anybody else, but That modeling, we carry stuff with us into our relationship. The way we were taught to handle big feelings comes up for us as adults. Like that continues and that becomes a pattern. And you have to be aware of your own patterns and how you bring them in. Even if you have hard fought against them your whole life saying things to yourself like, I will never be like my dad. I'm never gonna be like this person. Because when we are shaping and developing our communicative language, we learn through our own processes, we learn through our own survival skills, we learn through our own trauma, we learn through our own experiences how to interact. And we bring that with us. And both people in a marriage bring that. So and it doesn't matter if you grew up with the most healthiest of attachment styles in in your life, you are still. Chris (42:41) Yeah. Kasie (42:48) Coming in with whatever you survived with. Chris (42:52) Imagine if you will, eight thirty, nine o'clock, your bedtime, you kinda lay down, got a small room, you got a bunk bed, I'm on the top, brother's on the bottom, doors closed. Then you hear a raised voice followed by another raised voice. Clearly something's going on. You get out of your bed because you're very, very curious about what's happening. And you put your ear to the door, you know, as a little kid, six, seven, eight years old, just to listen. And you hear some real rough things being said, and it just blows up. Kasie (43:31) Mm. Chris (43:33) And it's going on and on, and you you just can't track and understand it. You don't know the logical understanding of what's being discussed, if that's what you call it. Eventually it stops and it winds down and you don't dare coming out of your room, Casey. You don't dare ask any questions. And you go to bed and you wonder. You fall asleep and you wake up in the morning, and there's mom, good morning. Here's breakfast. Off to school. Okay, what was all that? And how do you make sense out of all that? Now that is a real experience that I had multiple times as I was growing up. Not that they were horrible, but my parents did get divorced. It was one of the rough days of my life when I was told dad was separating. But Casey, that stuff plays out in your head. And it and if it's not playing out in your head consciously, as you just laid out, I guarantee you it's playing out subconsciously when you're talking about Kasie (44:07) Yeah. Chris (44:31) Your budget with your wife. Okay? That's what's happening. And if you don't think that, I'm just gonna straight up tell you, listener, you're naive. Kasie (44:34) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it yeah. But what's what's great about it about all of this is that you know hurt happens. It happens in every relationship, but so does hope. And the hope part of this comes in when we recognize that something is amiss, when we notice it, when we become aware. Chris (44:43) I'll be blocked. Kasie (45:08) And we decide to do something about it. We decide to do something different. And small changes lead to huge impact. Even if you even if you think about it, like ⁓ there's this whole concept of the 212 degree concept, and and it's that water is just hot water at 211 degrees. But if you raise it one degree, it becomes boiling water. Chris (45:19) I've seen it happen. Kasie (45:37) Boiling water produces steam. Steam powers locomotives, power grids, trains, like all kinds of stuff. The one degree makes a huge difference. So if you think about your normal interactions now with your spouse, if you change one thing, just one thing immediately. one percent different, it can have a beginning effect on a lasting impact. For some people, that's just a greeting. Good morning. Instead of just waking up, rolling out of bed and going about your day. Good morning. Acknowledgement, right? Like that's one degree different. Chris (46:15) And what Gottman would call that in emotion focused therapy is a repair attempt. Kasie (46:20) Yeah, it's a repair attempt. It's a small one, but it's a start. And that's the point. The point is: if you have the ability within you to start, then you can see this through to the end. And I think that's an important kind of focal point of why we want to really deliberate before we divorce. You want to really deliberate about this because if you start and you both work together on starting these one percent changes, pretty soon you're at a hundred percent. Pretty soon. Chris (46:55) You know, it's funny, I feel compelled to share that is is the way that I ended the the book, ⁓ in the in the conclusion. And it's a very simple phrase that I'm really appreciative of my one of my best friends. ⁓ lucky to have really close people that I've leaned on. And I leaned on Adrian a lot. ⁓ man, throughout, you know, my troubles and struggles and challenges. And ⁓ Casey was so special, he would always end our conversations with, you can do it. You can do it. And I really appreciated that. And that's actually the reason why I ended the book in a conclusion that way, because I think we really forget through the fear and the terror that we can do it. But you can, you can do it. You know, couples sometimes don't need a divorce, they need a different relationship with these patterns that we're talking about. Kasie (47:26) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, they need a different relationship because healing is an instant. And I think culturally that that's where we think we should be, right? That we should be able to take a pill, see a counselor, do this, do that, and instantaneously be gratified in this adventure to heal a relationship that has hurt us over and over again for a multitude of years. Healing is an instant, but neither is growth. But growth and healing can happen. And I think if that is the belief system that you operate from, that growth and healing can happen, then you are going to give it your best shot. Is it 100% guaranteed? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I'm living, breathing proof that it is not 100% guaranteed. There are going to be factors that are outside the bounds of control. You know, there are going to be factors there. But is it worth it? Absolutely. Because the truth is, is that if you don't work in this this context to heal yourself appropriately through the context of your current relationship, what do you think is going to happen in the next one you get into? Chris (48:58) Here it comes. There it is. Say that again? Kasie (49:04) If you don't heal yourself in the context of this relationship, what do you think is going to happen in the next relationship you get into? Chris (49:11) Yeah, yeah. I tell you, man, we see it all the time, don't we, Casey? That just patterns get replicated and replicated and replicated. Look, part of the reason why I lean heavily towards staying married is because I know clinically, sound statistics, that if you get divorced and you get remarried, your statistics of chances of staying together in that marriage are significantly less. My gosh, if you get to the third marriage, it basically means you don't have a shot. This is just statistics, okay? And but the reason for that is because We do exactly what you just said not to do, Casey. We'll we'll we'll continue the same types of internal process. And that's why I think people aren't really aware of it. subconsciously things are happening. But let's let's move on to a segment here where we ask, you know, the question that is in the title, you know, is your marriage really over? I want you to hear this because I see this all the time. Many couples confuse their levels of exhaustion. Kasie (49:43) Mm-hmm. Chris (50:09) They're levels of resentment, their levels of chronicity with conflict, and their levels of emotional distance. They confuse those things and others with permanent incompatibility. There's not a lot of things that are permanent. I promise you, you might be in a stage of life, and the next stage of life, you look back on that last stage of life and you're like, wow, why were we thinking that way? Kasie (50:21) Mm-hmm. Chris (50:34) I mean think about when you were newlyweds and you were worried about, my gosh, are we ever gonna get pregnant? Are we ever gonna get pregnant? Are we ever gonna get pregnant? Now you've got seven kids. Like what what what what what were you thinking? But we spent so much energy at that stage of life because you don't know any better. You don't know what the next stage of life I'm not talking about the next month, Casey. I'm talking about the next stage of life will will bring. And that's that's a big that's a big deal. So so the level of exhaustion, resentment You have chronic conflicts, the emotional distance. Don't confuse that with permanent incompatibility. And then there's an important discussion about this that follows. When people say, I'm done. That is a cold moment. Cold hard moment. We talked, Casey already referred it in a recent episode, you know, why are we angry? Why are we so angry when we're actually feeling hurt? There's primary emotions and then there's all the things that are underneath of that. When you have that cold moment or you think to yourself, I'm done, what does it actually mean? Because sometimes what it's really saying is I feel hopeless. I feel completely alone. I do not feel chosen. I don't know how on earth to reconnect. This marriage must be over therefore. Kasie (52:13) Yeah. Chris (52:14) Those are hard, hard moments that you begin to face. They're existential questions. Because make no mistake about it, divorce really means that your entire spirit is torn and shred into, as is your family. And I'm not saying that to dissuade you from something that you may need to happen or a relationship that needs to end, because a bad relationship sucks. But divorce is not, you know, I don't know, Casey, I would say it to be one of the most troublesome states of mind people get into. As a matter of fact. Anecdotally, I don't care if you're a teenager with what we belittle them with and call it puppy love or or if we're looking at a forty year marriage where you just get into a space where you want to have an affair and end it. When your primary relationship ends, that is when you typically I find you in the most despair. Kasie (53:05) Yeah. Chris (53:06) Right. It's a it's a hard, hard hit on your spoon. Kasie (53:12) Yeah, even if it was a terrible relationship, you know, even even if it was terrible, you know, even if you feel some senses of relief being through with that segment of life, it's still a very vulnerable place to be in. You know, there are a lot of feelings that we don't realize that are gonna get attached to that. You know, and I'm just speaking for myself here. Like embarrassment was one of them. Like I was embarrassed to be a divorced person for a little bit. You know, it feels big to say that. You know, I wanted my children to have a two parent household for all of their life, you know, and that isn't gonna happen. And I felt shame and guilt because of that. You know, so even though Chris (54:09) No, yeah. I mean, Casey we're therapists. We failed. Kasie (54:13) Yeah. Even though like, well, I mean, and that's another part of it, right? Like, I'm a couples therapist. How do I face my job now? Was part of my existential crisis. Like, who's gonna believe me? You know? Like, how are you counseling me in marriage when you couldn't keep it together? Like those are the self-talks that we go through when there's a demise of a relationship. You know, how am I ever gonna do this again? Chris (54:39) You know, Sue Johnson calls those demon dialogues. Kasie (54:43) Those are demon dialogues. Yeah. It's so funny though, because my husband that I'm happily married to on he and I, the first date we went on, I said, you know what? I am never getting married again. And he said, he said, I am never getting married again. Like we had both told each other we're never getting married again. And yet here we are. But I mean, so Chris (54:57) No, I love that statement in midlife. I hear that. ⁓ sure, yeah. And here we are. Kasie (55:10) So there there's hope after hurt, you know, and there's healing after hurt, but it can be done in the context of your marriage. And I I definitely think it's so much bigger than what people really give it credit to. You know, we think We're mad now, we're upset now, we're exhausted now, we feel lonely now, we don't feel chosen now. And then we decide like divorce is the only option. Like that's all I'm gonna go for. Like, let's just get divorced. Well, guess what? When you come home to an empty house, or you're in a custody situation and you only see your kids 50% of the time or every other weekend. Or you didn't get the dog and the other person did, and now it's just you and yourself, guess what you still feel? Unchosen, lonely, not knowing how to reconnect with other people. Chris (56:09) That sucks. You know, it sucks. Here's here's a thing to to wrap into the end of this this little segment. You know, a statement that the marriage may not be over. The connection may simply be buried. If you think about what types of things can bury a relationship, I mean it's it's so easy to get stuck into all of the things in life, especially parenting. You know, in the life of a family. Kasie (56:12) Yeah. So choose your hard. Mm-hmm. Chris (56:39) You know, it's well known that when you're in a space where primarily the kids are running the asylum, you know, as we like to make jokes, you know, the the challenge there is really like, you know, how do we regain ourselves and and get out from under this buried thing? I mean, you know, people will spend fifteen years and not go on a date because we're raising raising the kids. Chapter forty of Of through a therapist eyes re understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. I n most un humbly and unapologetically highlight this stuff in the book because I think it's really impertinent to this conversation. Chapter 40 validating your partner's emotion or life experience builds trust. Okay. Casey, what you what you just said is that when you went on your first date with your unbeknownst at the time, current husband. You you s you fell into validating each other's experience. I mean maybe it was a shared experience, but Kasie (57:41) Hold hold on a second. He's not my current husband. He's just my husband. What do you mean my current husband? Chris (57:48) I'm so sorry, sir. Ma'am, Casey, man. Yes, your current husband ⁓ Kasie (57:53) Sorry. He's your current husband. Chris (58:01) Current, your only, your only ever okay, what do I need to say? Yeah, you know, you you just described validating each other's experience and you know as yeah, as he's gonna come on the screen and give me the evil stink guy, isn't he? Kasie (58:04) Yeah. He's like he just looked around the corner. Chris (58:18) Dear. No, it's it's it's it goes back to to some conversations that we've had on the show where vulnerability is key. You know, being able to kind of share with your husband, share with your wife those vulnerable realities of what you truly are thinking. And and before you say, ⁓ I've told him what I really think. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, ma'am. I'm talking about the things that are hard to reveal. No, sir. I'm not talking about the complaints that you have. Kasie (58:43) Yeah. Chris (58:46) I'm talking about those things that you you really debate long and hard or you just don't want to say. Those are the things that are truly vulnerable, and those are the things that need to be validated when you say there's a lot of hope if you figure out how do you validate your partner's emotional and life experience, because that builds trust. If you don't have trust right now in the relationship, go towards vulnerability and you will find trust grows. Kasie (59:04) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (59:16) They're they're symbiotic. You can't be vulnerable and not have more trust. I almost think that's unbreakable. Never said that before. That is new in the moment. I'd need to think about it, but I think that's pretty close to the truth. Kasie (59:24) Yeah. Yeah, and and I think you have to evaluate ⁓ your desire. You know, is your desire to be right? Is your desire to win or is your desire to repair and move forward? You know, because the the truth is is that, you know, and and both of those can be, you know, true at the same time. But I think that a lot of times when I see couples that have recurrent conflict, there's often a strong desire to want to hear the other person say you're right you're this you're that when the truth is is that in a marriage situation you cannot win the battle and still win the war because if you win the other person loses and that's not a team effort at all not a team effort at all so we either endeavor to figure it out together as the show often says Or we're fighting each other. There can there can't be a winner of a battle and a a winner of a war when it comes to marriage. Because you're fighting each other. Chris (1:00:43) Love that. Love that. ⁓ on the show we like to do a section of practical questions. We're gonna do that and then we're gonna do the shrink wrap up after with just Casey and I on board. The practical questions are things that we think about in sessions and we talk to you. So this is a moment where we almost get to try to play, though we're not disseminating therapy in any way. We we get to play ⁓ a practical question to you, and I'll take the first one. You know, when you're in session with me, I might think about asking you, the listener here, have you have you clearly communicated, not just spoken it out of anger or impulsively thrown something out there, but have you completely and clearly communicated what hurts most? What really hurts your heart, what hurts your spirit, not what you're complaining about, not what you're angry about, not what you have an impulsive emotion about, because emotions are impulsive. impulsive, but what hurts the most before deciding the relationship cannot be repaired. Because when you communicate that, there is there is a conveyance, a full conveyance. The other person knows exactly what's going on. And I'm going to submit to you that oftentimes that's not the case. Casey, do you have a practical question? Kasie (1:02:01) I do. So what what I would ask you if in my office or otherwise is are are you really reacting to the current situation, the current reality of your relationship, or is it more so to the years of pain or the buildup of of how we got here? ⁓ what we often notice is that the reality or what's happening currently in the relationship. isn't necessarily the worst thing. It's not always the best thing, but it's not necessarily the worst thing. What we often see is a lot of reactivity to ⁓ things over the course of time. And so we really want to look at it from that iceberg perspective that we talked about a couple of shows ago, where the behaviors that we're seeing popping off, maybe in our day-to-day, are just behaviors, right? It's that underlying part of the iceberg, that underfillment of the of the iceberg that's the most dangerous part. These behaviors are happening because of the pain that has built up over time. And so that's what we have to get to. That's what we have to address. That's what we have to inspect or ⁓ introspect on to determine, you know, how we're going to to move forward. Chris (1:03:25) Inspect or introspect. Love those two words together. Sounded a little wordy though, to be honest with you. Kasie (1:03:27) Yeah, for sure. Thank you. I'm telling how I learned from the best. Chris (1:03:36) as you can tell, we're wrapping up and we're gonna get out of here today, but we're not done with this conversation. We're gonna really bookend this and have a finishing conversation with segments that we didn't get to, such as talking about emotion-focused therapy. You know, we we we have we have solutions, we have science that has helped us figure out what to do here. Warning signs that shouldn't be ignored, because that's important. But what do we do to develop hope, acceptance, and the reality of things? Because There is a lot of hope about this type of stuff. Casey and I wouldn't waste our daggone time doing marriage counseling if they didn't believe that it's absolutely possible. And we know that it's absolutely possible to get well with this because we've seen it happen. ⁓ many times. You know? We've also seen people break up and that's sad. That happens too. ⁓ oftentimes we don't get the end of the story, but we find out later. And ⁓ I don't know what percentages it is, you know, but Kasie (1:04:19) Yeah. Chris (1:04:33) I I think it definitely I think it definitely does go go both ways. So we are going to do the shrink wrap up. This is a segment of the show at the end of the show when we kind of do a friendly little competition. It is just us competing to wrap up the show to give a little bit of a ⁓ a a zip. Neil judges and he decides who wins. We are of head to head Casey. I don't know, man. I you make me nervous because you come up with like word salad things that like have phrases. I I feel like you've started a Prepare for this segment. Is that is that true or is this off the cuff? Off the cuff? Okay. I think that'd be a rule. I I I think it ought to be a gentleman, gentlewoman's agreement that we have like in a right. Right. We've never laid that out as a as a as a characteristic though. so Neil judges and at the end of the year we find out who has the most victories in our friendly competition. Casey, you want to play Knuckles to go first? Kasie (1:05:04) No, this is off the cuff. Off the cuff. Yeah, it should definitely be organic. Yeah. I don't even know what Knuckles is, but you can go first. Chris (1:05:31) You know how you play Knuckles? You ever play Knuckles, you know where you clap the knuckles and bloody knuckles is what it's called? Kasie (1:05:39) yeah. Neil (1:05:40) She's a girl. She doesn't sh they don't usually play knuckles, if that's a guy thing. Chris (1:05:44) I don't know, I've done it with girls in elementary school. Kasie (1:05:45) I definitely played Knuckles. Neil (1:05:46) You you were from West Virginia, so I understand that. Kasie (1:05:47) I called it Bloody Knuckles. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (1:05:51) Alright, here's here's here's my shrink wrap up. This this is a a concept that is is a really important one for me knowing what I know and knowing what I've experienced with with the pain of divorce. It is it is not a simple pain. It is a it is a large experience that people that people have, ⁓ and and one that is shattering, and I'll make no bones about that. You know, when when you when you develop a close relationship and then you unpry that relationship, it it it it pulls apart at all your emotional nerve endings and and pain points and it furthers the things that you're already in a space of terror about. When it comes to emotion focused therapy, we identify either abandonment as a terrifying place that you sit in where you're afraid of being alone or not respected, you're afraid of being ⁓ disregarded and and and and and tossed away and then engulfment where you're afraid of being run over or and you feel that you need space and you you you feel like you're being controlled that you you don't even own or you that you lose yourself. It's these are terrifying states of mind to be in that get worse with divorce. And so what I want to focus on in the shrink wrap up is the reason why I wrote a freaking book about it. The reason why I wrote a freaking book about it is because I know that there are things that you can do to be different. These endeavors are not easy to be different. These endeavors involve some of the things that we've talked about, about really digging into your spirit and understanding what your subconscious is telling you about, something that's probably not true. And what's not true is what you're fearful about. Generally speaking, your fears are lying to you, sir. Generally speaking, your fears are lying to you, ma'am. And you end up making decisions about your life and the life of your family based on those inaccurate realities that are fears, insecurities, doubts, and all the pain points that go into this. So I have a lot of hope about what it is that you can do to reverse that around on the inside the mirror, not on your partner's side. Focus on you, sir. Focus on you, ma'am. Because dynamically, when you change something about yourself. And you're highly connected to something called the other person, paradoxically it changes the relationship. You have incredible empowerment here to make things different. So have light, have hope. I wrote the book because I know that you can make this space between you and your partner a little bit better, as Casey talked about 1% better at a time. And that makes major changes in the next stage of life. Stay with it. I'll end by saying those words that I ended the book with those words that my friend helped me understand as being an absolute truth. You can do it. Kasie (1:08:49) Yeah, so my shrink wrap up is this. You know, pain can be very loud. As someone who has experienced pain in a relationship, in a marriage, it can be very, very loud, but hope can also be very, very stubborn. You know, so I think that if we really get to the point of understanding that healing in a process is not about erasing everything that has hurt you. It's really learning that in addition to having that hurt, you can carry some hope too. And what that hope does is it allows you to start the day by saying, I'm simply deciding to show up one more time. And really in a marriage, that's what this is about. It's about when you're on the brink of making the biggest decision of your life, which is to divorce or not, that you decide to show up one more time. Chris (1:09:52) All right, mister Robinson, wrap us up and take us out of here. Neil (1:09:57) ⁓ for today, I think man, I think the great points cause I think Chris you have to look at it from yourself. You have to go from those pieces to say, start with me to help this relationship. Casey, it's super important to say one more time because a lot of relations stop because they just don't put that extra effort in. So both of you have two very key things that people have to understand if they're in a struggling relationship. Work in yourself, put that extra step in. It has to be both things. So Great wrap ups, but I think today I'm gonna give it to you, Chris. I just think it was I think that's really important because it's all about you 'cause you have to then make that choice to do that one more time. You have to make that choice to work with yourself. And I think that's really important. That you a a repair in your relationship starts with you more than it starts with the other person. Kasie (1:10:43) Mm-hmm. Agreed. Chris (1:10:47) funny Casey when you win one of these silly little friendly competitions just like yay Kasie (1:10:52) Yeah, it's so exciting as if we get like a real prize. ⁓ Chris (1:10:55) Hey, you know, we never said we're not going to. We have a little bit of time to figure that out. There might be a real prize in it, but right now it's a friend to competition, Miss K C Morgan, Miss Competitive UN C baseball girl. ⁓ man. Kasie (1:11:06) Yes. Neil (1:11:07) We can always make a punishment that the loser has to wear like the opposite team's jersey on the show or something. Kasie (1:11:13) they have to get a tattoo. Chris (1:11:14) Whoa, that's too much. Neil (1:11:16) ⁓ that would be great. If if Chris if Chris gets last place, he has to get like a UNC like like a UNC tattoo. No no, y no, it doesn't you we don't have to see it. The fact that you just get a tattoo and it's not W V U would be hilarious. So Chris (1:11:18) Those stakes are too high, Miss Casey Morton. Kasie (1:11:25) Yes. Chris (1:11:26) dear God. Right on the right above my drooping eye. Kasie (1:11:35) Yeah, it would be hilarious. Chris (1:11:36) Would be hilarious. It's also not gonna happen. Have a great week. Have a very safe fourth of July. We have two hundred and fifty year anniversary in the United States. So around the world, enjoy the heat wave that's coming around. ⁓ you know, boy, it's hot here now, I tell you that. But a happy Fourth of July. Be safe, stay well, and we will see you guys next week. Take care. Kasie (1:11:50) Yeah.