In Episode 367 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, explore the fascinating science of emotional resilience to uncover why some people shatter under life’s heaviest storms while others manage to transform pain into post-traumatic growth. Demystifying common misconceptions, this episode reveals that true resilience isn’t about hiding vulnerability or being “emotionally tough,” but rather a practiced, dynamic skill rooted in connection, mental flexibility, radical acceptance, and finding deep-seated purpose. Drawing from foundational psychological research—including Ann Masten’s “ordinary magic” and Tedeschi and Calhoun’s growth frameworks—you will learn practical strategies to stop fighting reality, lean into supportive relationships, and intentionally navigate adversity so that life’s greatest challenges refine rather than define you.
Tune in to see the Science of Emotional Resilience Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Why do two people experience similar hardships yet respond so differently?
- Is resilience something you’re born with—or something you develop?
- What habits and relationships help people grow instead of simply survive?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2F0003-066X.56.3.227
https://www.jstor.org/stable/20447194
Chapter 1.11 | Accepting things is a part of your emotional growth.
Acceptance is one of the foundations of resilience.
Chapter 1.16 | The value of working through life events is high.
Healing happens by processing adversity, not avoiding it.
Chapter 1.25 | We are constantly a new self or a reconstituted self.
Adversity often reshapes identity, and resilience helps determine whether that reshaping becomes growth.
Chapter 1.33 | Realize change does not happen to us; it happens with us.
Resilience develops through active participation in the healing process.
Chapter 36 | We were created to be with people, but…
Connection is one of the strongest predictors of resilience.
Chapter 39 | The need for validation: a little needs to go a long way…
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #367 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Hello. Hello and through to through a therapist eyes. Neil caught me off guard there. He he started a counter and I wasn't sure. we have our whole crew together. Miss Victoria Pendergrass is hanging out with us. How are you? Are you on mute? Victoria (00:15) Sorry, I was good, I was muted. I'm good. How are you? Chris (00:18) And Mr. John Pope. John (00:21) So nice to be here. Chris (00:23) And Miss Casey Morgan. Kasie (00:25) Calma. Chris (00:27) I feel like we should model like for the listening audience what we do in like group therapy, almost go around it like a check in and see how we all are, how we made it through the summer, you know, what's going on with us, 'cause I know we've got some different things. It's been a wild summer in scheduling. I will say to to to you listening that the Casey is going to be missing us every other week. She's got some what are you doing anyway? You got the dance stuff, right? Yeah. Kasie (00:57) Yep, my daughter is a cheerleader and so she has practices every Tuesday and Thursday, games on Saturday. So that's what I'm doing for the next, I don't know, four months. Chris (01:10) Three, four months. So do we need to do a group therapy to see how everybody's doing getting through the summer? You all right, Victoria? Kasie (01:17) Hey, listen, my kids went back to school today. I'm golden. Chris (01:21) boy. Yeah. Victoria (01:22) Yeah, I did not I totally forgot about school today when I left my house in school traffic and I saw a bus before Chris (01:28) Yeah. Victoria (01:28) I even left my neighborhood and I was like, snap. I forgot that school was back and now I have to adjust my p time when I leave my house because of school traffic. Chris (01:41) That's funny, yeah. I'm I'm so out of touch, John, with the school and when the kids go back and all that kind of stuff, like I'm clueless now. I have no idea. John (01:49) I d I try to drive at times that the school buses don't drive, but I have so many appointments I have to go to early in the morning. It's it's a fool's errand. Chris (02:00) I'm just saying our kids are grown. John (02:02) Yeah. Kasie (02:02) Mm. John (02:03) So Chris (02:04) kids are older, no school for the Gazdick or the Pope Home. Alright, this is Through a Therapist Eyes, and you're catching us catch up with each other on episode three sixty-seven, where we are going to be talking about Casey's favorite topic in a different way, though. The title, Why Some People Break and Others Grow. And this is the science of emotional resiliency. We've talked about resiliency on the show before, but it's interesting the discrepancy, right? Like some people really absolutely flourish when the chips are down, and some people just break and don't know what to do. For instance, maybe this will be a little bit of a a a wet your whistle for our conversation. People that tend to grow up in like alcoholic dysfunctional families, for instance. They learn sort of these crazy survival skills. A lot of times they're maladaptive in the adult life and whatnot, but they get street smart. They know how to pr triage a problem and then they kind of just numb everything out and then move along. So they don't break, you know, and that's not necessarily a good why, whereas others come across A scenario and they're just not accustomed to it, and they just kind of go in themselves and get into full flight, fight, John (03:12) They're like glass. Chris (03:14) or freeze, right? What's that, John? John (03:16) They're like I'm sorry, they're like glass, aren't they? Chris (03:19) Yeah. John (03:20) Yeah. Chris (03:20) Yeah, people just, you know, don't have the resiliency and we're gonna talk a little bit about why. So this is through a therapist eyes where you get insights from a panel. We have our full panel of therapists in your home or in your car knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way. The three questions we're asking you to think about during the show today. Why do two people experience similar hardships yet respond so differently, like I just laid out. Two, is resiliency something you're born with or something you develop? Hint, Casey, which one? Kasie (03:51) it's both. Chris (03:53) Ooh, both. John (03:55) Great. Chris (03:56) Born Kasie (03:56) Mm-hmm. Chris (03:56) with. Well, I thought it was a develop. I'd be curious to hear what you're thinking, John and Casey, are about Born With. And third, what habits and relationships help people grow instead of simply survive? So this is through a therapist where you can click, subscribe, do your part. John, you haven't told them very much lately in the last month or two. What do they need to do with this five star thing? John (04:21) they need to put five stars for us because what we do is that that puts us in the forefront and we get we get privileged in a way to be able to our podcast is is placed in in a better a better position situation. Chris (04:42) John, I missed ya. Nicely, nicely done. John (04:47) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (04:49) listen, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day, and this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. That's our signature. Contact through a therapist eyes dot com. Good way to reach us. We do YouTube lives at about 615, 630. great way to join on with us. Really do your part. We'd love to give you this free information content that blows up stereotypes and myths about mental health and substance. abuse and disseminates information that you can trust knowing it's from therapists that do this all day every day. So this is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. What do you think guys? Segment one, what is emotional resilience? We've talked about this on a show, so let's be kinda, you know, short on this segment a little bit, because I think our if you've been following the show, you'll know that we we you know we really dig this and it's it's a it's a fundamental f fabric of therapy. But What it's not for sure is I think something to kind of kick off with. You know, people have misconceptions about what it is to be strong. And that's not just Kasie (05:58) Yeah. Chris (05:59) dudes either. Women want to put their big girl pants on, people say, right? And we we think resiliency means things that it's not. So what it's not is never crying. Like never struggling. Like that whole phrase from the eighties, never let see them see you sweat is just that is not being resilient. football season starting up, you know. Quarterbacks have ice in their veins and they're good to go under any pressure situation. That's not what we're talking about with resiliency or being emotionally tough, pretending everything's fine when you're not fine. These are these Kasie (06:34) Like Chris (06:35) are not things that are considered, at least in our therapy world, as emotional resiliency. What is emotional resiliency, y'all? Kasie (06:45) Yeah, so emotional resiliency, I think, is it my one of my favorite illustrations is concrete sidewalk, right? And no matter how heavy and how desolate the situation is underneath concrete, and we know that concrete is solid, it's very heavy, it's non-porous, and so you know, weeds still continue to grow. Weeds are very resilient despite all the factors that have been put down against them. they still persist. And so that's what resilience is. Chris (07:18) It's a beautiful little dandelion. Kasie (07:21) Yeah. That's what resilience is, is that despite adversity, you still persist, right? It doesn't mean that you don't have hard days. It doesn't mean that you don't have good days. It just means that you are able to come as it comes, like go as it comes, right? And be able to work it through without having to branch out into your survival mode responses all of the time. John (07:48) So in other words, there's persistence that's involved with that as well. Then also that there was you were talking about that wonderful image of the of the concrete is that I could see how a plant might try to seek Chris (08:09) Yeah. John (08:10) a crack to go into and it will go o out of its way, it will adapt, it will it'll wind its way so that it finally p finds a break in the concrete or a small crack and it'll grow there. Is that what you're saying? Kasie (08:25) Yeah, that's exactly right. Like so You know, I I think it's that, you know, sometimes from the the moment of inception, right? The moment that life begins, there are a lot of factors that a lot of us are dealt that we didn't ask for, but they happen, right? Like from the moment of inception. And so from that point forward, there are cards that kind of get stacked on top of us, like the concrete. And yet there are people in this world and people that continue to become these people. People who are able to face those adversities, to figure out the methods of needed coping, to be able to problem solve in the moment, to be able to work it through without becoming irreproachable, without becoming a hermit, without becoming a shell of themselves. and sometimes people are born with that, and sometimes people have to develop it over time. And there's a lot of factors that go into that that we're gonna talk Chris (09:26) Yeah. Kasie (09:27) about. John (09:29) You know, I was just thinking of a song that was from the sixties. I remember I'm that old. And it was the rubber tree plant. And you know, oops there goes another rubber tree. Yeah. Do you remember that song? Yeah. Yeah. Resilient Chris (09:43) I love that. I remember that, John. John (09:46) yeah. It just yeah, 'cause he had high, high hopes and so I'm that's always Chris (09:53) Yeah. John (09:54) been a wonderful song. It's a joyful song. Resiliency. Kasie (09:57) Mm-hmm. Chris (09:59) So let's let's get to what I'm curious about. and th this idea of of of where it comes from and and we'll talk more about how people break or thrive. But I am curious, you two. Victoria, I'd be curious what she thinks about it as well. But the two of you are kind of saying, you know, you really can be born with resiliency. I I'm surprised at that. I honestly. I I kinda felt like it's a lot learned. there's definitely biological things, your diagnosis in mental health Anxiety, for instance, influences whether or not you handle things fluidly or smoothly or more erratically or roughly. ADHD might be more impulsively or more in the moment rather than a longer term plan. before we go to Casey or John, Victoria, I'm curious what you think, Victoria (10:59) Yes. Chris (11:00) because I really felt like this was all much more geared, honed, learned, developed, than born with. Victoria (11:14) Well, I feel like you should be able to guess what I say because I'm like KC 2.0 over here. Chris (11:20) Right. Victoria (11:21) but well not in all aspects, but yeah, I mean I definitely think it does come that there is an aspect of it that you're born with. But then also additionally, on top of that, that there are aspects that we grow and develop like as we learn or like as we Chris (11:39) So how are we born with resiliency, Victoria? And then we'll let the old folks play. Victoria (11:44) Are we bored with it? Chris (11:45) Casey, you are. Victoria (11:48) I mean, I think it's more of just like a innate thing. I think I see it. Like, I mean, I've had a child and you know, like I can see even from birth, like he are we talking like that type of I mean, even like emotionally, once he Chris (12:00) Okay. I guess. Victoria (12:05) he's l he learns that like, you know, he can do things like he can cry a certain way, and we know that that means that he's hungry, you know? Chris (12:13) Okay. Victoria (12:13) Like, so and I didn't teach him that at the time he was Chris (12:18) Yeah. Victoria (12:18) You know, four months old. Like and now he's four years old, but like Chris (12:20) Yeah, yeah, perfect point. We have we s we have certain instincts, we have certain innate tendencies, we do have certain psychological immediate responses to trauma or situations or our surroundings. Yeah, okay. I Victoria (12:34) So yeah, I mean I so then what I think you're we're saying is that like then or I guess what I'm trying to say then is like it's more the resiliency is more broad when we're born and then as we get older we hone in on it more and like figure out how to like utilize it and incorporate it more and like make it more directive instead of it just being like a passive thing that we just have. If that makes sense. Kasie (13:02) Yeah. Chris (13:02) Love that. No, that makes more sense. Casey John, what what that's it? Kasie (13:05) Yeah, well well definitely I so what I would say is this. Naturally, there are just some infants that tolerate stress, noise, hunger, like all those things better than other infants. You know, if you've ever had more than one child, the differences between the two children and their temperament, ability to tolerate stress, like from birth, from inception, like from the time that they are born, sometimes two children born of the same two parents can have variances in their ability to even tolerate stress from birth. You know, and so a lot of those things can be environmental, it can be physical, it can be a lot of different things. But if you look at the gene mapping and you look at the neurology of it, we can trace it back and say that naturally there are some kids that are better genetically equipped to deal with stress. Now, we haven't John (13:57) If Kasie (13:57) studied those genes in isolation. We know which ones aren't good in isolation. We know things like fetal alcohol syndrome, and when kids are not gonna be able to tolerate as much. stress in an environment based on their genetics, but there are kids who are naturally born just more genetically resilient to things like stress on noise and things like that outside of the womb. John (14:22) Okay. Well, I think there's also another factor and that is epigenetics. And they've done studies, they being scientists or boffins as they say in Britain, is that in research which has indicated that the parents, let's say a father or a mother undergoes tremendous psychological stress. Well the body adapts to that actually, and so genes are expressed or turned on. basically. That is passed down It it it's a form of Lamarckianism, I think, but it it it's a it's it these epigenetic markers turn on and so n the person that is born or the child that is born is gonna be more resilient. maybe more susceptible to some anxiety and all of that, but at the same time have have the resilience to bounce back through adverse adversity. So You know, mine's more of a biological sense there. Kasie (15:33) Yeah. John (15:34) But interestingly enough is that the epigenetics go to a return to a baseline after the second or third generation. Kasie (15:44) Mm-hmm. I also think that Victoria made a really good point. And one thing that she pointed out was when my son was hungry, he gave me a cue, I responded to that cue. That is going to be one of the biggest preceptors for the resiliency of children from birth, right? If they are connected to one essential adult that has a caring nature, that is a nurturing adult in their life, that they have one essential connection at that John (16:12) Green. Kasie (16:13) point of infancy, that fostering of resilience. Resilience is going to carry through for a long period of time before they actually even encounter super stressful events. Because what it says is that if I have a need, that this pain and suffering, even Chris (16:31) Yeah. Kasie (16:31) in little infant brains, the pain and suffering is temporary because I'm going to be able to get that need met. So when I cry, I might be in pain, but it doesn't last forever. So when you look at that stark comparison between like orphans in Russia and other countries that we've known in the research forever who went for months and months and months without being held, without being you know, coddled without being like taken care of emotionally, what you see is a stark contrast, one, in the gray matter of the brain, but also in the resiliency of the central nervous system. To your point, Chris, when you said people will often numb out, that's what happened in those instances, right? They eventually stopped crying. They eventually stop crying. It doesn't John (17:18) Yeah. Kasie (17:20) mean that those infants are more resilient. It means they literally resign themselves to know that even when I have a need, it's not going to be met. John (17:31) Okay. Yeah, I would I would agree with what she what she's saying, but at the same what Casey's saying, but there's also the aspect that there are some people that because of their of of the stressful environment in which they were hatched basically, they or the parents, the birth parents, is that they've given a a little bit more armor or an ability to to adapt and be more flexible. So I think that's another aspect. Chris (18:08) Yeah, so okay, so let me let me push back on this or or or I'm I'm thinking people listening will be will be wondering, right? It to me a lot of what we're talking about is post birth. And I'm wondering about pre-birth. So John (18:29) Well that's what I'm saying. Chris (18:31) are you I so so a baby John (18:32) It's Chris (18:33) hadn't even been born, hadn't even br breathed her own oxygen yet, and and What is the guiding force that makes some more resilient than others? That no life experiences, no parenting, no John (18:44) If the parent if the parent is under a tremendous amount of stress, the mother, those there will be genes that will turn on epi and that's epigenetic. They will turn on and they will equip the child to be able to take more stress and trauma from the get go. Chris (19:07) See, that is brand new to me, to be honest with you. And I'm I'm kinda wild about Kasie (19:11) Really? Chris (19:12) that. Yeah, I think so. Victoria (19:12) Yeah, but wouldn't you but wouldn't you think that like being in like resil like pre birth, right? When they're in your belly, like or in John (19:23) Euro. Victoria (19:24) a belly, like it's then it's like also the com genetic components of like the mom's or the person carrying's John (19:32) Yes, yeah. Victoria (19:34) ability to have resiliency. So then like that plays a part in it too. Yeah. John (19:36) Right. And she's got all those hormones that are bathed yeah. Yeah. Victoria (19:42) So Chris, you've never thought about it like that? Chris (19:47) I'm I'm actually might be having microphone problems. Neil's telling me something so I can't think, but John (19:50) Ha ha ha ha. Chris (19:52) so I you know, but I haven't quite so much as much I haven't heard a whole lot about that. I mean it's fascinating. you I'd be curio I mean it's it's it's triggering a lot of feel a lot of questions more than anything, like what kind of genes, what kind of you know, biological functions, what kind of adrenal gland settings, what kind of endocrine system stuff. I mean, you know, I I'm I'm just I'm swarmed with with questions. John (20:15) All those things. Chris (20:16) questions. Kasie (20:17) All of it, John (20:17) Yeah. Kasie (20:18) all of your hormone receptors. But I mean, if you really think about this at a base level, when a woman that's pregnant, when she ingests food, right, the baby gets all of the good things from the food that she ingests. Even if she's drinking like a milkshake or eating a double cheeseburger, the baby is going to to absorb nutrients via the umbilical cord from what she has ingested, right? If we think about stress on a biological level in the same way, when the nervous system of the mother is activated and there is a connection there with the baby in utero, it is going to send information throughout the body. Just because the baby is in the womb doesn't mean it doesn't have nerve endings and things like that. I mean, we know it gets fingernails really early on, like it's got a lot of stuff going on. In that process. So if stress is induced in that environment, the response to that stress is going to also be produced in that environment, right? So it's kind of like a balance and counterbalance. So it makes sense that infants in the womb that experience stress of the mother would have to develop something to counterbalance or counteract that stress. And that's where epigenetics come in and that's why it it makes a lot of sense. If we're gonna say that infants get the best of what a mother eats, the infants also get a lot of that genetic input from the central nervous system of the actual parent. they also believe that babies can hear in utero. So even environmental stressors, right? Like environmental things and factors, you know. We used to say things like women should smoke while pregnant to reduce the birth weight of babies. That was true in like the 50s, if you've ever watched Mad Men. You know, like that that really happened. Like they did they used to suggest that because it would keep the birth weight of babies small. And then we realized very quickly, hey, wait, what you are doing is actually impacting the unborn child. And so now we know anytime we're introducing something to the body, whether it be substance, whether it be food, whether it be stress, it has an impact in utero on the fetus. Chris (22:39) Yeah, I just find that stuff fascinating. It sounds like would you both would you all agree that there's so much more research that needs to be done about that? John (22:47) definitely. definitely. Kasie (22:51) Yeah. Victoria (22:51) A hundred percent. Chris (22:53) And what what percentages would you put on all of this sort of epigenetics, biological infusion stuff compared to learned behavior and learned process and and that type of thing after birth? Like what w of Kasie (23:15) Well, I don't know I don't know if that's been empirically studied. I mean, to be honest, like I don't know if that's where the like the empirical studies have gone. You know, like to compare a group like that experienced stress in utero versus later on in life. But what we do know, and what I do know to be true from like neurology, is that when we take kids or groups of children that were followed, you know, Kaiser Permanente did the biggest like informal experiment of this, right? They took these groups of of people who were followed from a certain age that had adverse childhood experiences, including stuff that happened prior to birth, right? Like they looked at all of that information when they came out their huge study. And so they looked at that information prior to birth, like what was the shape of the birth mom, what was going on in that. birth mom's family and things like that. Then the child was born. Then they followed the child to becoming a young adult into their twenties. And they developed, you know, adverse childhood experience scales based on a lot of that information. Because what they discovered was not only does this adult have a mental health condition that they're probably being seen for, but they're also developing a lot of other physical disorders, diabetes, heart disease, obesity, like all of these things. if they had four or more adverse childhood experiences. So there are cross-sectional research, or there is cross-sectional research that's been completed, but I don't know if there's just empirical research around like what would like, are we following this kid that had stress in utero to see where they're out now with their resiliency? John (24:58) Yeah. The VA has done a a bunch of studies on this regarding PTSD and alcoholism and particularly Vietnam veterans who and their children and grandchildren that did they develop resiliency or or due to the stress that that was that those who had had PTSD and they found that that there is some very good tools that can come back from the person that had has had a a parent that has PTSD and anxiety. So that was found in the Gulf War and also in the war on terror. Chris (25:53) Yeah. It's you know, to me the we've just landed on a fascinating discussion on the most interesting area of our field, which is neurology, if you ask me. I mean it just there's so John (26:04) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (26:05) much that we're behind bits like we've gotten smart about some of the things that are going on to study neurology, but but there's so much more to learn. Like I said, it just it j my brain is flooded with questions right now. John (26:21) Yeah, well you you you were on a on a you were very much interested in hormones, in terms of in mental health. And yeah. So Chris (26:31) For sure. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of that goes into what happens in a baby and the stress thresholds and stuff. And all also for the last ten, fifteen minutes I've been sitting here thinking, okay, John (26:41) Yeah. Chris (26:41) all the guys listening to this show, do not go stress your woman out and stress her the heck out when she's pregnant just so the baby can have more resiliency. That is d do we all agree that's not John (26:48) We're not gonna do a boy named Sue. Chris (26:50) a great idea? John (26:53) Yeah, it's not a great idea. Yeah, it's not a great idea. Chris (26:54) Okay. Yeah. Right. Right. Let's move on though a little bit to what makes some people grow and and and this is sort of more I think of what we know about. resiliency is definitely some of what we blew up hopefully a little bit that it n isn't. Casey talked about a little bit about what it is. But what what you know, people go through all kinds of life trouble, divorce and chronic pain and y you know, death of a child or unemployment. I mean the the list is long, right? Some people actually grow through these things and the name of our title, some people really just straight break. How and what is it that leads us to being able to grow? You know, i I don't I think that you grow the most when you hurt the most. I've said that a thousand times. But what what variations can we come up with Maybe Victoria, I'll throw it over to you. I mean when you think about growing during stress, you're in the middle of parenting a four year old. That is stressful. And I tell you what, I grew the most when I was raising my kids because it is a stretch. I grew a lot in college too, 'cause that's a stretch also, but what what what makes you not break? Victoria (28:16) I mean, there's lots of things. self-care, coping skills, time management. I mean sometimes like, you know, little recreational fun. I could go on. Do you want me to go on? I mean, it's lots lots of different things. Chris (28:45) That is a serious brainstorm. You know, one of the things I wanna highlight, you know, on our list that we that I was thinking about in prep for the show, I heard something that was really, really prom profound, I feel like. all all the way back when we started trying to figure out mass shootings with Columbine, right? And what we found was that we we still don't really know, y'all can correct me if I'm wrong, what may constitute somebody likely to to complete such such terrible acts. But one of the things that we did find, and Craig and I very early on in the show talked about this a lot and I remember kind of coming to him and being able to say, hey we we heard something, we figured something out. I feel like we figured something out. And what that was is one thing was in common with all these folks that completed mass murder events and such in schools or churches and synagogues and that that at the time was very much They didn't have access to not one attachment figure, one primary attachment figure that really supported and validated and upheld you emotionally. That was something that they all had in common. So having attachment figures that are supportive and validating is one of these such things that helps us to be resilient and grow, correct? Kasie (30:06) Yes. John (30:08) Yes. Chris (30:10) You gotta give me more than yes. Kasie (30:12) Well no, sorry, your your feed is going in and out a little bit. So it's it like sometimes Chris (30:18) It's Kasie (30:18) we're catching about every fifth word. Chris (30:22) dear God, for real? Victoria (30:23) And it sound yeah, and it sounds like you have the air conditioning unit on full blast in the background. because that is what I hear. Chris (30:31) I'm sitting here in s I'm sitting here in silence. I turned my ceiling fan off. Victoria (30:34) Or maybe that's maybe that's John John's thing is always going on saying that he's making sound even when he's not talking. So I don't know whose it is. But yes. Kasie (30:42) Yeah. Anyway, so so to answer your question, Chris, yes, I I do believe an essential connection to at least one figure, one adult figure, is very sufficient in being able to provide a protective factor for a young person. Although I would say it takes more than that. Right, like it it takes more than that for a sustained period of time. Like a person being attached to something intrinsically, I would say, like you have meaning here in the show notes. So I would say like being able to connect to something with purpose and meaning, something bigger than yourself is often on a really big protective factor in being able to get someone to realize where their resiliency lies. I believe that every person can develop resilience. Every single person. Because I don't believe that there is something wrong with you. I think a series of things have happened to you. And that's where it's at now, right? Chris (31:54) Let me work with Neil on my audio guys. Victoria (31:54) I agree with Casey. I second that. No, I second you, Casey. I definitely think that there is resiliency that is available for everyone has the opportunity to form those attachments and to have that resiliency. Kasie (32:15) Yeah, and so I think with protective factors, what we really want to look at is, you know, there are environmental protective factors, there are individual protective factors, there are community protective factors, right? Like where you live and your access to things around you can directly impact your ability to be resilient, you know. If you have to encounter a traumatic circumstance every day onto the bus stop, you're in Instincts will eventually take over and you will learn ways and means. Like even earlier today, when we were talking about going back to school, not that this is like a traumatic thing, but John said that he tries to avoid school buses or the school bus traffic whenever he can, because his learned response now is if I don't want to have, I'm assuming, stress or panic episodes about kids running everywhere trying to get on the bus or being behind a long line of traffic. then I need to modify my route, start earlier or start later to in in an effort to be able to kind of make it a better situation for me overall. And that's really what a lot of this is. I think what happens. Go ahead. Victoria (33:29) So then Casey, sorry. So then would you call that resilience or would you call that like learned exp like the learned experien like you would call that you would differentiate those or you would Kasie (33:38) Well, I think it's one in the same. Victoria (33:39) put those the same? Kasie (33:41) Right. So I think what happens a lot of times, Victoria, it's a really good question. Is that we overcomplicate this concept of resilience sometimes? We can make it really complicated, right? And think of it as like, we've gotta get in touch with our inner child to be able to do all of this healing work. And that's great. I mean, that's that's very good work. Like, that's really good work. I'm not trying Chris (34:05) Yeah. Kasie (34:05) to jump on any toes, but the truth is that you can start today. And make a plan to do one thing different in your life and create a lifetime of resiliency for yourself. Right? Making one small change can really have a great impact on your ability to be able to be more flexible. Right. When I work with couples, for example, the first thing that I encourage them to do in in the morning, every morning, if they do wake up together, is a a a nice greeting for their spouse, even if it kills them. A nice greeting, right? A nice greeting. And this is why. Because when we introduce something different that creates change in your central nervous system. That response of your parasympathetic nervous system and your sympathetic nervous system takes over and it reduces the stress of the situation. It's really hard to look at someone that says good morning to you consistently and that good morning gets more consistent and that good morning gets more feeling tattooed. It's really hard to look at them and be like, shut the F up, you know, because they're not coming at you in a hospital way. Your mirror neurons are no longer putting you into a survival place. They're allowing your brain to be more flexible. And so we overcomplicate resiliency a lot. You know, and we think that it has to be only for people who have experienced a lot of traumatic events. But you can work on your personal resilience very simply by just, you know, working with children, right? Like your four-year-old, he does a lot of things to get on your nerves, right? Like there's a lot of Victoria (35:46) Yes, he does. Kasie (35:47) nerves, right? But sometimes even taking like a step back and doing one thing different can make a lot of difference. And I know we talked about this in a training that we did, but sometimes when I approach my kids and they are arguing and there's nothing I hate more for whatever reason than they're just bickering back and forth. And when I approach them, before I even enter that space, the one thing I do for myself is say the word calm. And I say the word calm because what it means to me is I need to reset myself, check myself before I wreck myself in this situation. And by developing skills over time, my resiliency is a lot higher. And then what you begin to notice is now that they're arguing, you I now can walk into a room without having to say calm because I've now rescued my nervous system from that activation place. And that's really what resilience is. Like you're gonna be put in adverse situations. What is your response instead of your reaction? Chris (36:49) You know what's funny? I I like sports and there's this guy named Pat McAfee that has gotten a big show on ESBN. And I love it Kasie (36:56) Dive in. Chris (36:56) that he ends his show by he says, Hey, be a friend, say something nice, you might save their life. It might save your life, I think might be something different. But Kasie (37:05) Mm-hmm. Chris (37:05) it's cool because you're talking, Casey, about these basic, simple things that people can do that help us get through. And and I I y you're right. I love that. It I I think what happens for people is we we get information about You know, you you guys are making me think about all of the the the genetic stuff and the the polyvagal stuff and all the you know, all the all the neuron things. I I think people get very complicated and confused about all of those things 'cause it is in neurology and stuff, but when it really washes down to it, there are things that we do to kind of manage the day or the moment. Yeah, John. John (37:42) It's it's I think w yes, we overly complicate it and we were talking about things that that seemed in itself very complicated. But the the fact is is that if you learn a good habit, like saying good morning to your spouse, you might actually start believing it and living it and being very pleasant to be with. And that's And and so you actually are engaging in changing your your behavior and your thinking process. And so you're making new neural pathways. Chris (38:21) You know what amazes me is we have these old wives tales, we have these phrases. I mean, you just said fake it till you make it, John. And I think that human beings have have have known, have learned. I mean, we adapt in this natural instinctual way to be resilient. I mean, you know, we have it we have it so easy right now. I'm I'm sitting here drinking a a diet Pepsi with a a lid and a and and the the bottle forms to my hand. I mean You know, do you think humans were resilient when they need to go out and kill a deer for dinner? You know? We we we adapt with these things, we learn, and so maybe some of it is just, you know, sort of calm down, slow down, trust your gut, and move forward. Kasie (39:02) Yeah, I mean, I am very thankful that we don't live in like, you know, early times where we had to see our friends be eaten in the woods by saber tooth tigers, right? Like, you know, I don't know if that's historically accurate Chris (39:12) Right. Kasie (39:15) or not, but that's a an example that I use when I train on resiliency, right? Is that we developed modern weapons based on our own resilience because our nervous system was like, Me no go in the woods because me go in the woods, me get eaten by bear, you know, and now we have Chris (39:29) Right. Kasie (39:31) modernize things to help us get through that experience, right? Because what we do know is that while an experience is really difficult, right, there are a lot of things that a lot of people I'm not ignorant to the fact that there are lot of terrible despicable things that have happened to people in this world. Dis despicable. I can't even fathom what it would be like to go through some of the things that some of my clients have been through, some of my friends have been through, my family has been through, and but then also things that I've been through, you know, like you can't even fathom that sometimes. We don't talk publicly about it, you know? And what it is is getting away from saying, you know, like good vibes only. Right? We've got to step away from that mentality and become honest with ourselves and acknowledge that there are things that have happened to us. And there are things that we can do to help us from this point moving forward. One of my most powerful things that I I like to say, and this is not coming off of the title of a Colleen Hoover book, but this trauma ends with you. It ends with you. You know, like yes, we can't go back and change the things that have happened to you up until this point. But you can make it different from your point moving forward. No one else that's in your family lineage has to have this same trauma. And you have that power and that ability to do that. So it's time for us to get to a place where we can believe that that can happen. You know, I think that's so powerful. Victoria (41:12) Yeah, isn't it fun but isn't it funny how the saying like good vibes only and stuff like that, like it's such black and white thinking of like we can't like, yeah, I mean that's not you don't build resiliency by like, you know, jumping through rainbows and sunshines and daisies and flowers all day long, you know, like Kasie (41:36) Yeah. It's the reason why there's that phrase that calm seas don't make good sailors, you know? Calm season make good sailors. John (41:42) Mm-hmm. I can attest to that. Victoria (41:43) Mm-hmm. Kasie (41:45) Yeah. That's surprised, dog. Chris (41:46) I was wondering if you were gonna jump on that, John. John (41:49) Yeah, I've been in the foxhle and during a cyclone and it was hair Chris (41:56) golly. John (41:57) yeah. Victoria (41:58) Gosh. John (41:58) my gosh. Kasie (41:59) Yeah. Chris (42:00) That sounds terrifying. John (42:02) I mean, I didn't know that a a ship could go like that. But anyway, the po point is is that it was very disorienting. Chris (42:14) Yeah, and and honestly it's funny, John. I'm I'm I'm seeing my kid grow up in the Navy. You know, I'm talking to him often on the phone and tracking his progress and and a shout out to Adam over there serving us in Yosoka, Japan. Yeah. Kasie (42:25) Hey Adam! Chris (42:27) And you know, he's growing a lot and and it is a challenging environment being in the military and I'm sure other militaries around the world. It's a bunch of young men and and women, but a lot of young men that are that are that are tough. I mean, it's a tough environment and you know to to to grow in the middle of that. I think there are some things that do, I'll spit through them real quickly, but you know, some of what we found in the field that really helps us to to develop and grow and not break when things happen is people that are that that can find meaning in stuff. Your faith tradition has a big factor into that. Purpose. You know, there's a big book called The Purpose Driven Life. And John, you've talked about before the way You know, a c a cause greater than yourself that you find in the military. It's powerful things. Your systems of support, we've talked about them. You d a concept of flexibility, which we should do a whole show on that. If you're not flexible, you will certainly break when things happen. the level of of acceptance on things around you, you know, when things are going on, we have a we have a strong tendency to fight and battle and try to change things is the part of the serenity prayer. You know, where I quote thousands of times, you you know, you're supposed to be, you know, a you know, controlling the things that you can control and letting go of the things that you cannot control. And we try to control the things that we can't control and we don't let go of the things that right, we do it in opposites. It's it's so tough to to to to get yourself grounded and just accept things. And so these are this is just a list of things that that as you said, Casey and John, you know, doing the simple things to build and grow those things go a long way towards helping you to get through a tough day or a tough moment. Kasie (44:17) Yeah, so John (44:18) Yeah. Kasie (44:18) I I definitely want to point out something and not that I'm harping on words or trying to be the word police here, but I I wanna be cautious and well Chris (44:25) What I what I do, what I do, Casey. Kasie (44:27) I wanna I Be cautious and say, like, you know, peep resilient people are strong and other people just break. Because here's the truth in the power of resilience. Resilience is not even about like if you've ever been broken or never been broken. It's really the discovery about that you can rebuild no matter where you are, right? So I just want to make that distinction that we're not reaching out to the audience tonight and talking about like there are people who are strong and there are people that are broken or easily. Broken, right? Because that that can be true, but at any point in time, any person can become vulnerable if a few of these protective factors just go away, right? Like one of the lowest points of my life was when, like, the first day that I moved out of my marital home when I was going through a separation. You want to talk about vulnerable? You want to talk about broken? Chris (45:22) Raw. Kasie (45:22) You wanna talk about like balled up with anxiety and emotion and fear and no resiliency? And I will tell you this story now because I love my best friend Tara. I had packed everything and put it in my garage, moved it down the stairs myself, all that stuff. I got the truck reserved. I didn't have anybody in my mind to help me move out of that house. And what happened was, because my friend saw that I was having a moment of brokenness, she gathered people herself and they came to my house and moved me out of that home in 22 minutes to spare me the hurt of having to do it over the course of multiple hours. Right? So when I went to therapy post separation and told my therapist this story, they were like, that's part of your resilience track, right? That when we think back about the hardest day of your life, instead of recounting all the anxiety, all the fear, all everything you had, we're gonna recount the fact that you had someone so supportive in your life. That they rallied around you and they cared enough about you to have enough people to come and help move you out in twenty-two minutes so you didn't have to deal with that anymore. So even John (46:40) It's Kasie (46:40) the strongest people break. Right. In fact, one of my favorite traditions and cultures is Victoria (46:47) You know. Kasie (46:48) Japanese culture, right? And kinsugi is this art of repairing broken pottery. And you take this substance that's like a powdered gold and a lacquer. And so what Kinsugi does, kin kinsugi they do is they have this broken pottery. It's broken into several different pieces. And then they take this lacquer mix with gold powder, platinum powder, silver powder. And they glue each piece back together sometimes in a very unique way. And they make something incredible after. So even though you're broken, this is about the process of rebuilding. Chris (47:30) Yeah, I mean John (47:30) Wanting Chris (47:31) I think it's funny. Can you guys just tell that this is where Casey turns on? Kasie (47:36) Sorry. Chris (47:37) Let's just let's just let Casey go, you Victoria (47:37) Yes. No, I love it. I was about to say I'm kinda surprised you didn't give the leading of this episode to Casey from the job. John (47:41) Yeah. Chris (47:45) know, I mean, because this is her jam, this is her space. John (47:48) Was this Casey in the Sunshine band, but Chris (47:51) It's just I mean it's a lot of good stuff and and and and you're right, Casey. I I I recently almost bought a piece of that pottery and we were talking about it when we were up in the North Carolina mountains. I mean, there's so much there and and you know I really want you to listen to the show where we had the bachelor hanging out with us. What was his name? I stuck at that. Victoria, what was his name? Ben Ben Higgins. Ben Higgins and how Victoria (48:12) Then yeah. John (48:13) Ben Higgins, yeah. Chris (48:14) long ago was that? It was about a year ago. it Victoria (48:18) Yeah, I mean Lucas well no, Lucas was like two earth or like he was like it was like two John (48:22) It was two years ago, I think. Victoria (48:23) years ago. Chris (48:24) Yeah. He he really laid out in such a beautiful way in his book, Alone in Plain Sight, what Casey, what it is that you're talking about. You know, the fact that we've all been broken is something that we all love to deny. And again, the top of the show was like, Look, you gotta understand that it is not that you don't cry, it is not that you don't fall down, it is not that you do all those things. I'm thank you for getting back to that and blowing that up further, and certainly from anything that I said, because I don't want to convey that at all. I mean, you know, it's not a black or white thinking, as Victoria said, it is sh sh stuff's gonna happen to you in your life, man, and and you will fall down. It's it's how you get back up and resilient people, you know, dust themselves off and figure out how to get back back up. I feel strongly about that that kind of stuff. John, you you had a thought. John (49:10) I had a bunch of thoughts, but I Chris (49:12) Yeah. John (49:12) I was going back to what Casey was saying earlier, but it there is a sense from a a male perspective, n not necessarily males, but but it's prisoners of war in Vietnam. there wasn't one person that wasn't broken through the brutal beatings and starvation and all of that. not even John McCain, and I actually listened to one of the Stockdale, Admiral Stockdale, who actually was running ran for vice president about forty years ago, thirty five years ago. But everyone was was broken, so to speak, but those who thrived and survived were the ones that were able to do like the kasuvji, is that how you pronounce it? Yeah. And and they were to to actually take what was broken and rebuild. And and they were able to survive. a lot of marriages failed at the time when they got free or when the prisoners were freed. and there were even some prisoners of war who whose wives left them during their captivity and some up to six years or seven years and so but those who seemed to thrive and and build back were the ones that had a very strong sense of a of faith center, of a a sense that their parent that their They had somebody that was on the outside still loved them n no matter what. And they that they looked for the day that they could come back and and eventually they were released. So resilience. Chris (51:18) You know, it's powerful, John, those stories, and I love watching those movies and shows and you're highlighting again having stronger relationships and not doing things alone, having a a sense of getting meaning from things and you know, spiritual connections and you know th that that that that all factors into what do you do when you when you do get broke. So we're gonna go into our practical section, practical questions s segment here in a John (51:42) Okay. Okay. Chris (51:43) moment. that's where we kind of talk directly to you through the screens, through the microphones, through the car, wherever you're catching us, right? And and get you and ask you to like from a therapist perspective talking to you about what you can do. Because, you know, from our perspective, you heard us sprinkle in a lot of these types of things. You know, asking for help means that you are more resilient, not less. tolerating uncomfortable emotions, like being willing to have those difficult conversations. Maybe as Casey said earlier, just one change like greeting your spouse or your your child from school better or more more kind, you know, maintaining hope, like literally choosing what you focus on and hope defined by a confident belief that something good is about to happen. That's a that's a skill. So these are all things You know, remaining teachable is another one I I I think hugely important. If you think you've stopped learning, you you've stopped living, in in in in my book. So yeah, this is you know, really an important topic and and something that we can we can all use. Let's let's go to the practical questions a little bit. Victoria, you want to go first? Victoria (53:03) I was gonna ask to go first. Chris (53:04) Yay. Victoria (53:05) Look at there. okay, so sometimes, you know, as we've been mentioning, like things get hard in life, things get difficult. So the question I want to ask is like, you know, do you find yourself isolating, like pulling away, or do you find yourself leaning on those healthy relationships? And I think oftentimes we do tend to want to isolate because sometimes we feel like we don't have those healthy relationships. But I think even in like Casey's example of her friend like coming in, sometimes those relationships are there even when we don't realize it or even when we don't necessarily have the power to reach out on our own. And so I just implore that you Think about reaching out to the people that you do have in your life. Sometimes it does t mean taking a step back to see what all those healthy relationships look like and where they are. But then once they can be identified, I think that that's where we really lean into them and can really benefit and really add on to our resilience through those healthy relationships rather than trying to build resilience on our own through isolation. Chris (54:27) Love that. If you're still listening and hanging with us, I think mister John Pope has a question or practical question for you. John (54:33) Yeah, I do. Thank you. I was just thinking, you know, y I would ask you to identify one hardship that ultimately helped you grow. And you may not even think that it helped you grow as you're going through this agonizing time. Perhaps somebody betrayed you, perhaps a spouse betrayed you, or cheated on you, or or let's say some other aspects at work. I'm gonna share limited self-disclosure, but I served as a pastor of a a fairly large church and I had a a target on my back. I didn't even know it when I I went through that. And it was the worst thing I ever went through at that time. And I thought, God, this is horrible. They don't like me. They don't love me. And for a pastor, that's very important is that everybody loves you and likes you. Well, that was exactly the wrong lesson that I was supposed to learn. I was supposed to learn that I c had the inner stuff and inner core that would keep me going on. And I found those support like Victoria was talking about, those people that would provide support to me. And those were the true friends. And those were the people, not the people that that were opposed. And it was very interesting for me to learn from that because I I didn't distrust people after that. I didn't feel like life's was really difficult for me and I you know, I I became a re recluse. Instead, I decided to screw up my courage with the help of of supportive friends and family, and I went on. And as a result of that, I went to graduate school and got my doctorate, piled high and deeper, you know, in counselor education supervision. And that was a that was a real growth edge for me. And so what I thought was meant for evil and done to do me wrong actually did me a favor. And it was a blessing. Do you have that in your life? Do you have that? And if you could identify that, because that's resilience developing. Chris (57:11) That's strong, John. I I will ask you, I have a practical question to think about what you're fighting. you have lots of situations, you have lots of events, as John was just talking about, and I'm curious to think about if you're fighting the realities that are facing you, battling your hardest to change something you cannot change, or are you learning how to respond to it? Parenting, for instance. Victoria is dealing with a young child or w Casey is r running taxi service for her kids. John's kids are grown. My kids gave me a challenge. When you think about parenting, for instance, are you learning as a parent or are you fighting it for eighteen years? I want to suggest that you you learn as you go with life's challenges. And I think Casey finally has a question for you. Kasie (58:07) Yeah, so what I would just ask is, you know, what's what's really giving your life meaning during this difficult season? You know, we we come and we talk a lot about a diff a lot about different topics when we do the podcast. And today we've covered a whole slew of things. We've talked about, you know, everything from epigenetics, which is a little bit like nerding out on science, which I love. We've talked about slowing your role and just really kind of You know, getting into the meat of what resiliency actually is and what it's not. And we also talked a lot about, you know, just a lot of different ways that resiliency appears for us without even having to go super deep to find it. And but one thing that we did touch on that I think is really important is that one of the most resilient things a person can do. Is figure out kind of what gives them that intrinsic motivation, that meaning, that drive, that purpose to persist, right? Like, why are we going on, right? And I don't mean that in a morbid way, like, why are we living? Like, what am I living for? But more so in there are things that are in everyday life that if you did not show up. They would go aw, whether it's your kids, your job, your spouse. I'm a person who firmly believes that my husband is the head of the household, but honey, let me tell you: I am the neck, I am the backbone, I am the knee, I am every other essential part of that body. Okay? Chris (59:51) Casey. Wow. Okay. Kasie (59:57) No, but I'm saying, like, you know, there are things that if you look, give a sense of purpose and meaning to your life. And that is what you can connect to sometimes when nothing else seems to be going okay for you. Connect to that purpose. You may not, you know, be the best at everything you do, but you're really good at a lot of the things you're a part of. Chris (1:00:29) I will humbly apologize to you, the listener, who I in intermittently butted in on your moment with Casey. My apologies. every listener Kasie (1:00:40) Yeah. Chris (1:00:41) that was in the moment there with Casey's practical question. I just I just had to explode there for a second, baby doll. so you've heard a lot of things. We're gonna we're gonna take us out with what we do. At the end of our shows we enjoy a friendly competition. We have all four people, so we'll have to keep it a little bit short, Victoria. I only say that because she busted me being long. But you know, we're sprinkling in building emotional resiliency. You've heard us talk about a lot of things, right? healthy relationships, emotional awareness, realistic optimism, gratitude, purpose, s you know, self care. I think Victoria actually mentioned spiritual practices when there's meaning there for you or finding meaning in what you trust, believe in, flexibility amongst relationships and support, you know, the things, you know, getting up when you find broking, remaining in a learning mode. I mean, these are all things that we've sprinkle it in. Because the good news is you you don't you don't have to be resilient. You don't have to be like in a moment or or worry about am I enough? Because the answer is most certainly you're enough. And your systems just beautifully kick in when when you need them to. So yeah, really pretty cool discussion. I'm I I'm really enjoying us all being back together again. And now, John, we have to compete. John, we have to compete. All right. You c can you do this? You wanna you wanna describe what we compete with? I'm gonna I'm gonna put it to you. John (1:02:18) Yeah, w it's the it's basically this torture that I have to go through every week, which basically says I have to s and say something succinct and and and mind mind blowing and I don't like competing so with my colleagues because they're gonna blow me out of the water. So Chris (1:02:43) That was a very negative view of the shrink wrap up. That is not what we do. We have a friendly competition at the end of every episode to determine a summary of our topic of the day in Neil friendly competition. Neil gets to determine who had the best shrink wrap up as we go along. Mr. Pope, how about we get that you go first that you're so positive? How about John (1:03:04) Okay, there's a song in a musical I was in when I was in college. It was Carousel. And it's by Rogers and Hammerstein and it was you never walk alone. And it starts out when you walk through a storm, keep your head up high and don't be afraid of the dark. You go through the storm, you don't avoid the storm, you don't sidetrack. Basically, what you do is you just keep your eyes focused on your destination and goal, and you you go through it and y I almost guarantee you it's not gonna it's not gonna kill you. It will only make you stronger. And you'll have those experiences. And by the time you reach my advanced age And you will you will actually have a little bit more resilience to say, okay, I'm having to deal now with deteriorating health or whatever. And it's okay because you've been prepared for it and you've not been sheltered from it. You walk through the storm and you keep your eyes on the prize. Chris (1:04:23) Love that. somebody willing to go first next, Victoria or Casey? Victoria (1:04:27) go. I I'll go because I actually have to hop off after this. So you'll have to let me know who won. I really don't know what I'm gonna say because I feel like Casey's gonna win this anyways. But my I guess I'll say that I mean I second everything that John said, but like yeah you're not in this alone. that even the strongest people, you know have trouble at times, but we all can and do and have the power to have resilience or to build that resilience. And so just to like not give up that we can do it. Also go Chris (1:05:07) Love that. Victoria (1:05:08) to th go to therapy. Chris (1:05:11) Perfect. Victoria (1:05:11) Yeah, to help to help to help with that. Okay. I guess. Chris (1:05:14) Perfect. Well since since since Victoria already thrown you the dub, Casey, I'm gonna go next if that's if that's okay with you. I know, I know. Kasie (1:05:20) It's fine. That doesn't mean anything. Chris (1:05:27) Remember that song? Kasie (1:05:30) By Toba Wumba. Chris (1:05:34) Yeah. So that is a song that I remember playing and John a similar kind of moment. You know, I was I was leaving West Virginia and I was married for the first time. well, I was getting my first job and I was married, newlywed, and leaving West Virginia for the first time and it was just I mean, I remember it was the only second time in my life that I was that I was homesick. And it was just everything just seemed overwhelming. I didn't know how to be a professional. I didn't know how to be a husband. I didn't know how to be out of West Virginia with all my people. I didn't have any friends. I didn't know where the freaking thing I came across this thing called Bojangles. It was it was a rough time. for those of you that don't live in the South, it was a terrible chicken place that had really greasy chicken. It's great. Everyone loves Bojangles down here. But I didn't and I'll tell you, you know, midpoint through this show as as Casey jumped on and and and and said, you know We all get broken. And I remember blasting that song in my car as I was driving home to West Virginia to reconnect with my state, get grounded again with all these changes that had happened, even though I wanted these changes in these words. It was a wonderful time. I just you will get hit. And when you get hit, will you be able to get up again? And the answer usually is yes, and we want to build and come along with you to build the skill. At doing just that. Kasie (1:07:03) See, that was really good. Chris (1:07:04) Thank you. Your turn, babe. Kasie (1:07:07) All right, so so really and truthfully, you know, resilience, it like Chris said, it's not the absence of hardship, pain, or even brokenness. It really is the strength to face up to what has happened and find some type of meaning in that struggle and then choose to get up again, right? You can go to a multitude of sports films and they talk about it doesn't matter how hard you get hit, it matters about getting hit hard and sending back up, right? Like that's like a botched version of a w Rocky quote. But but But the truth is that resilience is really kind of this quiet strength that emerges when life has given you every reason to throw in the towel, to give up, to be done, to get through to get over it, to go around it, like John was talking about instead of going through it. Life gives us a ton of reasons sometimes to do those things. Resilience shows up and it reminds us that being broken does not mean ultimately being defeated. You can heal, and the beginning of something stronger can develop within you and move forward. You know, this is about that power to bend without losing who you are, but in trusting that you are able to do something different in your life. and discovering honestly who you can become. Chris (1:08:34) All right, Neil, I don't know. You got a full group today, buddy. Neil (1:08:39) I mean I have to agree with Victoria. Like Casey has has done this so much that she's kinda like that was so eloquent. That was amazing for what she did and we we got it before the recording had a weird issue, which was good. So, based on that, no Case Casey gets the win this time. I mean, I feel like she says that to herself in the mirror every day because it was just so great so smooth, so great. Hits everything someone needs to hear. Chris (1:09:04) Yes, you are. You really are. And you know, I wanna say before the show is over, Casey, I really appreciate it. I don't know why it touched me differently. I think you've kinda shared it before, but you went into maybe a little bit more depth and I felt it a little bit more, you know, with you know, the separation garage moving moment. I mean that that's a that's a powerful thing. And John, you as well. I mean I I just appreciate our genuineness on this show and and you guys being on with us. so thank you. Thank you both really for that. and Neil, thank you for controlling our cameras and getting my microphone messed up right and whatever. I don't know. Crazy. Apologize for the audio there. Guys, we got a really, really cool show next week. We got a personal story from a gentleman that I met recently. I I would love to be able to call him friend in the future. And he is going he is I'm gonna leave it a mystery, but we are gonna be talking about his personal struggles that he is willing to bravely and courageously and vulnerably share on an international podcast. And he is none other than a producer of a gold record. So it's it's quite the contrast. and I'm looking forward to to hanging out next week and and and applying these things that we've learned and talked about today. So thank you for hanging with us. Stay well. I'll say in honor of the Pittsburgh Steelers preseason football game tonight, let's go, Steelers. Love the football season. Yes, baby. All right. You guys have a great week. Stay well. We'll talk to you soon.