July 2026 Month in Review – Ep366
Welcome to the July 2026 month-in-review for Through a Therapist’s Eyes, where host Chris, along with co-hosts Neil and Kyle, recap a powerful month of episodes navigating the overwhelming crossroads of marital crisis, separation, and divorce with intentionality rather than impulse. In this concise review—featuring expert legal insights from Sodoma Law attorneys Chelsea Gajewski and Caroline Strauss—the team breaks down the crucial distinctions between a wounded relationship and an unsalvageable one, the structure of a therapeutic separation, and how to protect your family’s emotional well-being if ending the marriage is the healthiest path forward. From uncovering the true meaning behind “I’m done” to recognizing critical warning signs, this episode equips couples with the practical, courage-tested questions needed to replace overwhelming pain with clarity, honesty, and lasting peace.
Tune in to see July Through a Therapist’s Eyes
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/monthinreview
Before You File for Divorce: Is Your Marriage Really Over? (Part 2) (Ep. 365)
When Divorce Is the Right Decision (Ep. 364)
Before You Separate: Can a Trial Separation Save Your Marriage? (Ep. 363)
Before You File for Divorce (Ep. 362)
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
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https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
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Episode #366 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello, this is Through a Therapist's Eyes. I'm coming to you, Chris Gazdick here on July the thirtieth. I cannot believe we have finally arrived, gentlemen. I say gentleman because I have Mr. Kyle King hanging out with us here. How are you, sir? Kyle (00:19) Doing well. Chris (00:21) And I have Mr. Neal hanging out behind the curtains. guys, it's football season july thirtieth already. We're moving into August. How about it? Neil (00:33) I'm excited. Let's see if Chris actually gives me forewarning with the draft this year. Kyle (00:38) Yeah, I'm loving it. First game Chris (00:39) Sh Kyle (00:41) in an unofficial kickoff next week. Love it. Chris (00:44) Kyle's so uns upset that he got or Neil's so upset, Kyle, that he Neil got his butt beat in fantasy football in the Hillbilly Football League. But that's okay, man. That's okay. This Kyle (00:53) Ha ha ha ha ha. Neil (00:53) just upset that you cheated and and didn't actually schedule it the draft correctly. So but that's okay. Chris (00:58) This is Through a Therapist's Size, where we talk about everything Kyle (01:00) haha Chris (01:01) mental health and substance abuse, not Neil's feelings about resentment, hurt, and sadness. we do a month in review at the end of the week, at the end of the month rather, that you will you will find and enjoy with Kyle, the month in review guy. And and we've had a we've had a heck of a show, a heck of a row of shows this this month, honestly. Definitely a shout out right in the front end here of Sedoma Law who you know Caroline and Chelsea both joined us for different episodes. We'll talk about them as we we do our review here. But it was a really a heavy month, a haul a really cool month. I mean one that was is very meaningful to me in that I, you know, I I did write, you know, so many different chapters in a book on marriage and It's a it's a it's an area that's near and dear to my heart personally as well as I just love doing couples counseling. and so this was I I really, really enjoyed doing these shows this month. But this is episode three sixty-six where you are hearing usually from a panel of therapists, Cal C Casey, John, myself, and Victoria, 'cause we are therapists, clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day, and this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. So through a therapist size, this is where you get insights about mental health and substance abuse in your home or your car, knowing it's not to delivery of therapy services in any way. Subscribe, click, it really does help us get found. Look, we do our job blowing up stereotypes, myths, disseminating information to you, and we ask that you do your job, which is to subscribe, click, tell a friend, it helps us. We are asking you to go to YouTube and subscribe to the channel on there. You get to look at Neil's lovely looking bearded mug every last Thursday of the month. Contact it through a therapistize.com is a good way to get up with us. This is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. Not just a line, it's what we do, it's how we are, it's how we go. But before we get to reviewing the shows that we did this month. we have a little segment in the beginning of the front end of the month in review with Mr. Kyle King. He takes us down the rabbit hole with Kyle King. Usually it has something to do with mental health and substance abuse services of some kind. What you got, brother? Kyle (03:28) Well, let me just start out with a question. You know, when life changes unexpectedly, you know, what helps people recover more? Trying to control everything that has happened? We're trying to adapt. Chris (03:41) I love this. Now we're on something good. Questions. Neil, what you got? I gotta let you go. Neil (03:48) thing it i it's better to adapt versus keep control. You can' you there's too many sometimes there's a lot of stuff emotion that you can't control and you're just gonna worry yourself sick if you if you don't just adapt to it. Chris (04:02) Yeah, you know what's interesting there though, Neil, before we get his answer, I think we just did maybe, but you know, I think of the serenity prayer, Kyle. Grant me the serenity to Kyle (04:11) Okay, yeah. Chris (04:12) accept the things that I cannot change. That's adapting, right? The courage to change the things that I can, that's controlling. And the wisdom to know the difference. Now I quote that in my work in my office all the time, and so I'm actually gonna say it's a tie. Kyle (04:30) okay, all right. Well, in honor of Shark Week that the Discovery Channel has every single year, I thought this was just perfectly relevant because, now here's the follow-up question. If there isn't a perfect shark after millions of years of evolution, 450 to be exact, between 425, 450, why do we believe there's a perfect personality or career or... a version of ourselves. Because when you think about it, the shark's shark evolution has transcended five different mass extinct, you know, kind of transitions, right? Yes. Five, Yep. And Chris (05:16) Mass extinction events. A shark has survived. Five mass extinct wit events. Wow. Yeah, Neil Neil's typing now and he's got a he's got to check that crap, man. Kyle (05:25) Yeah, he's gonna research, he's gonna fact check it. So if you think, so it's been a long time that they've been around. And you think of the different species of sharks. Do you realize there's over 500 species of sharks? they actually are all over the world in various different things. They evolve and adapt to their surroundings. For instance, like the bull shark. Bull shark constantly in the ocean. now has transcended into fresh waters because it learns how to adapt. And these are the things Chris (06:01) Okay. Kyle (06:02) that has evolved, allowed the shark to create the transcendence from way, way back when, when it started, when they were first created to now and look how they continue to evolve. And so when we think about us as humans, you know, how do we adapt better? You know, are we better? You know, do we... Think of ourselves as trying to create that perfect version of ourself, or Chris (06:28) Hmm. Kyle (06:28) do we want to just focus on what we, our strengths and what we bring to the table into whatever? Chris (06:34) Let go and adapt. Kyle (06:36) Right, because if you think of, well, let's just say a teacher versus, you know, I'm gonna say a software engineer. What does a teacher bring to the table? Communication skills, empathy, learning capabilities, software engineers. We... you know, typically excel in logical thinking, mathematical problems, right? We have different strengths and those strengths can be valued in different parts of say an organization. For instance, like a hospital. Look at a hospital. The physician does one thing, the nurse does another thing, the pharmacist does another thing, radiology does something different. But you combine all those strengths together and look what you can create. And that's kind of what we're we're talking about here with a comparison to a shark, where we have to adapt to our surroundings and understand where we can provide the best value, where we can provide the best strength, not to be the strongest person, because the strongest thing does not always survive. As we've learned, the dinosaurs didn't survive, but the sharks did. Chris (07:43) Wow, that's crazy. I swear, Neil, I think this dude and Adam are previous down the rabbit hole with Adam come from the same cloth, man. They they read in the same book. They're Kyle (07:54) Hahaha Chris (07:55) they're they're from the same town. I don't know what they're eating. It's the same something, right? Shark Week, are you kidding me? Adam's loving this right now. He's eating like yes. Listen, what's interesting? Kyle (08:02) just like this is perfect perfect i'm like this is awesome Chris (08:07) What's interesting to me listening to you i i i is is adaptation is what it is that you're looking at. And this is precisely why I don't wanna take us down another rabbit hole, but at risk thereof, you know, humanity's greatest challenge in the history of humanity itself is not social media or technology, but it's the rapid pace of technology change. And I just saw this on the news or a big a big s a big series somebody was doing on it and they were talking about that that exactly. You know, like this is this is just as big, if not bigger, than the Industrial Revolution and zero time in comparison to adapt. And I don't know that we have that ability to adapt that fast. So it's it's Kyle (08:48) Yeah. Chris (08:49) interesting that you're saying that. Kyle (08:52) It was real interesting as I was looking through this is just, you like, you know, we think of sharks, we think the first thing that comes to mind is jaws, right? Great big great white shark, you know, just big carnivore just going to eat you no matter what. But there's so much to it. I mean, when you look at through the different species and you look at like, you know, for instance, what's it called? The Greenland shark Greenland shark survives in cold water. they've adapted to the freezing temperatures and slowed their metabolism down in order to survive. It Chris (09:23) Hm. Kyle (09:24) was kind of crazy. I didn't even know that Greenland shark existed, but sure, yeah. So it's really interesting how different species have evolved. Chris (09:29) Yeah, in the cold water of Greenland. Yeah, that's like almost frozen water. Kyle (09:34) Right, right. Neil (09:36) They live like hundreds of years. Like the Greenland shark is not a they'll they're like four or five hundred like I don't know exactly the dates, but it's a few hundred years they live. Like from for those ones if I'm not mistaken. Kyle (09:47) Yeah. And you think about it too. I don't think evolution is done with sharks. I think they're going to continue to adapt. They have to adapt to a changing world. They have for 400 million years and they're going to continue. You never know. Chris (09:59) Kyle, I don't think sharks are going to be able to adapt to artificial intelligence, man. It's all gonna end. Kyle (10:08) Look, we saw Austin Powers, you know, they wanted a laser on the shark, we can, somebody will figure that out. Chris (10:15) Right. That's awesome. That's awesome. All right. Well, down the rabbit hole with Kyle King. Man, that's awesome. I I really yeah, I I had no idea that sharks and I I didn't even keep track of Shark Week. That's what made me think of Adam. I'm sure Adam knows it's Shark Week. Kyle (10:29) Hahaha Chris (10:30) Excuse me. And but you know, five mass extinguishing events, that's what helped them is Kyle (10:35) Yeah. Chris (10:36) adapting to their environment and humans being able to let go and not try to control things so much. Man, that's hard, but you'll live long. Kyle (10:43) Yeah. Strength is not always the one that wins. It's adaptation. Chris (10:51) Right, right. Yeah, that's that's cool. And again, the Serenity Prayer. I quote that in my office all the time. as I said, this genesis of this whole months of shows came simply from The Sodoma Law folks approaching Metrolina Psychotherapy Associates. That is our parent company here at Through a Therapist's Eyes. Bioware, which I do have the marriage book that I have out. Reunderstanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse. I I I did a poor job. I kind of started to think as I talked to the first week in episode 362: before you file for divorce, is your marriage really over? every couple should know with Casey. I really thought, man, I really need to highlight that that book a a lot more this this month and I don't know, I just didn't Kyle, I suck at doing that brother. I don't know why. I just don't I don't I don't think about it and I don't enjoy taunting it, but it has so many things that are in there that that are are forged in many years of therapy moments with couples. And it gives you good things to think about along the whole devastating line of transactions that you might be into insofar as marital dissatisfaction, marital separation, marital divorce, and again book ended with i is this is this really over? I I guess I'll just slow this down Kyle (12:19) Yeah. Chris (12:20) and say, Neil, I'm I'm curious for you, you know, observing or facilitating all of those conversations. I d I don't know if this is because it's just near and dear to my heart as a clinician and then near and dear to my heart just as a person in addition now. Hey Kyle, addition clinician, I'm just you know, just saying, putting it out. Kyle (12:38) No. Chris (12:40) Near were these shows like was it no was it a lot or is it just my experience? Neil (12:47) I don't think it was a lot. I think I think the shows and the series that are that you did with this it kind of forces people to really think about their relationships. 'Cause I think what's nice about this series that we did was really looking at, you know, I feel like society is once someone says it's over It just becomes over. And I think what this show went through with the last month was, is it really over? What's really going on? Is it is it you? Is it them? Do you really want this? Do they really want this? Okay, think about that and then go on to the next thing about well, what's the next way to transition to the next space, right? So this really forces people to stop and think about Is that to be so quick to be, I wanna divorce, irreconcilable differences, and then just be done Chris (13:34) Did you freeze? Neil (13:35) with it. Kyle (13:35) I think, I think, yeah, there he goes. He's come, he's back. Chris (13:38) Alright, yeah, you froze. Think about what? Neil (13:38) been freezing weird. I'm doing my computer. So it's it's different because it makes you think about it when you get to that point where you're gonna get separated, it makes you stop and think, do I really want it? What does that really mean and what are the ramifications after it? So it really forces from this knee-jerk societal reaction of I'm just done with the marriage, I want something better. It forces you to actually take a step back. And I thought it was really, really good, really, really in depth, really addresses, you know, having the two lawyers and then having the you guys as therapists, it kind of gave through it gave you a couple different aspects of what it's really gonna mean when if you're really thinking about divorce. So I thought it was really good. It was a lot this month, but That's why there's also like four shows of it. 'Cause it wasn't just a simple thing, right? Chris (14:26) I think that's part of why I might be feeling that way. It was four shows just by the way the the month works out. But yeah, I love that you highlight that and I wanna just piggy on that and highlight in a in a piggyback fashion, one of the one of the coolest things I've ever learned, Victoria taught us, I will take it for the rest of my career, I told her then, and I actually used it literally today. and what she taught us was, you know, if you think about it, when people get maritally separated, that is not equal or akin to divorce. It's actually equal and akin to engagement. And I I i I was just stunned by that and I was just like, Wow, that is awesome. Meeting, mating, dating, that type of thing. And then when you get engaged, you're into a stage of a relationship that's just before marriage. And so when your marriage is separating, you don't go all the way to divorce. The next step, you go backwards a step to engagement. And you really think about what is this in my life? What do I you know What is happening here? Is this really over? And then the second big thing from all of these shows was was was I think with Ch Chelsea when we were talking about separation, simply asking yourself, what does what is this what what constitutes a mere a successful separation? Like what is that even mean to you and what does that mean to your spouse to have a successful separation? I just thought those two things were absolutely brilliant, Kyle. Kyle (16:05) Yeah, I mean, and I think just sitting here thinking, I mean, it means something different to everybody, right? You know, is it successful separation? What does that look like with kids involved? I mean, it's a completely different scenario than when they're not involved. You know, even with pets involved, that's a completely different scenario. But, know, for somebody that has been through it and, you know, has been through it with kids involved, it is something that It is a challenge and you have to ask yourself whether or not this is exactly what needs to happen for the health of the relationship and the health of the relationship with the child or is it, have you done everything to make it work or are there other things that we can do? I mean, there's a lot of questions that go into that in my opinion. Chris (17:01) Let me ask you guys both. Neil, I don't think you you know, n Ky Kyle and I have had the unfortunate experience of going through these devastating realities. You have not. But nevertheless, we all know people. I mean it's a unfortunately it's a scourge on society, is the way I put it. I I hate divorce. I absolutely hate it. I don't mind saying that I don't hate many things, but I do hate that. and thus I explained in the shows, by the way, that I have a hard lean towards staying together because research shows us, science shows us, anecdotal experience in my therapy office shows us that people generally are are better off when you're able to reconcile and work through things. Now, that is not domestic violence, that's not a devastating relationship where you're you're it's dangerous for you to stay. That's get the hell out. quickly, right now, and get help doing it. That's what I'd say to that. But you know, our panel was kind of all over the place this this week, Neil. So I didn't get to ask our panel a few questions that I kind of wanted to. This was one of them. I'll ask the two of you. I honestly kind of wonder out loud, and I don't know this clinically, I'm not sure. I don't get to have many conversations with clients about this, but it does come up. And you know I I'm really kind of curious if it isn't pretty near a hundred percent of the time people regret having gotten separated and or divorced. Except for domestic violence situations. I wonder out loud, what what say the two of you? Neil (18:39) Yeah, yeah. Kyle (18:39) I think there's aspects, but maybe not the entire thing. I Chris (18:44) Yeah. Kyle (18:44) think there's certain aspects, you know, that you can say, well, I missed that, right? But then there's other aspects. Well, okay, well, that comes with all of these other things that we could not come to an understanding together, right? But I think there's definitely aspects that you do miss. Chris (19:03) Hm. So you go miss but not Neil (19:03) You're saying that everyone regret everyone regret Chris (19:06) regret. Kyle (19:08) Yeah. Chris (19:09) Okay. Neil, what what did you say? Neil (19:13) I I disagree. I guarantee there's people that are happy they're separated. I believe my parents are very happy that they're that they got divorced when they did. Talking to them now and looking at it. I don't think there is Chris (19:22) Well mm. Neil (19:24) there is a I don't think there's an ounce of regret in that first mi that marriage between those two. So I I don't think, you know, I still have rel you know, my sister and I have relationships with both both parents, so there's no problems there. I mean there's regrets and they could have done Kyle (19:38) Nope, he froze again. Neil (19:40) there's regrets that Chris (19:40) What's going on? The technical guy is freezing. The Kyle (19:42) Hahaha Chris (19:43) technical guy's freezing up, Kyle. What's up? Neil (19:46) I don't know. My kid's probably streaming something downstairs. Kyle (19:48) I'm gonna blame the internet. Neil (19:50) Yeah, we'll Chris (19:50) Mm-hmm. Neil (19:51) blame the internet. it's this work computer, you know, they're Chris (19:53) You're back though. Neil (19:54) probably yeah. Am I good now? Okay. Chris (19:56) Yeah. Neil (19:58) But no, I I do think that there there's regrets in how they acted as parents maybe and some of those things, but there's definitely not regrets about the divorce. And you know, with with my parents. Chris (20:10) Yeah, it's it's it's you know what you're you're I I I agree. I mean it it is I look back on my my mom and and dad's experience and Yeah, I they're they're definitely not regretting it either. I think my dad probably did. But but I think honestly Neil, I could see where I could totally easily agree with you that my mom is very much happier in her second marriage, much better and stuff. And I think I think that's certainly the case. When you find ways to move on and you get new relationships, that pain eases and things are better. But I don't know. I I I I I wonder still even when you get happier I hate that word in all of this though. Happier. I No idea what that means. When you get into a stable, healthy relationship, that feels lovely. You may forget. I I wonder, you know, in the recesses of people's minds that that that is there at some point. But nevertheless, let's let's get into some of these shows. 'cause that's just a little theory base that I've hit in my head. I haven't hardly had any conversations with clients about that again, I'll say. So episode 362 is Casey and I. How do you know whether your marriage is truly over or simply deeply wounded? Love that question. Two, what decisions should every couple make before considering divorce? And three, listen to this closely. Are you trying to end your marriage? Or are you trying to end the pain? We went real slow, Casey and I. I just didn't want to rush these topics. And so we We really only got to like, you know, the the first couple segments. You know, divorce is one of the biggest life decisions. Let's actually slow down and give it credence and what was the other segment? I didn't write it down here. what's the goal of therapy and how do we how do we move through it? I don't know. I I I I I I I feel like those questions are really poignant and and you know, we talk a lot about emotion focused therapy and I think you know, our goal in therapy is not like to save every marriage, but I I really love the questions that we we we talked about here is because you you think that you're done with the marriage and I think that there's emotional pain that goes into your close attachments. That's why I like emotion focused therapy so much. You know, the the the space that you create with your spouse is the thing that is absolutely painful. You bring components into that creation. They bring components into that creation. And sometimes that creation shifts into a beautiful thing, and other times it shifts into knives that stab you. What are you and your spouse bringing to the table to create what you're creating together. What you're creating together is the enemy. Your spouse generally is not. That's the way Casey and I were talking about through this first show, guys. What what say you Neil and and and what did you what do you what did you hear from all that cop? Neil (23:32) I mean I I think it goes back to Once again I think goes back to really looking at what's the root of what's this next step, right? What's really going on with this? You know, I know once again with with my parents I remember the fighting before the break up. I remember like I was really glad they got divorced because I know the relationship was not going well. but it goes back to that idea and I've talked to my dad, talking to my mom some about this, but it's like that idea of what was going on at that time, you know, they kinda were Really, my mom was ready to move on and my dad was like, I want to make this work, but I he also understood that you know it was one of those things with all the history. So I'm like, it but it makes you take a step back to really think, you know, like you know, some of the questions you talk about, like exhausted healthy options, have we identified real problems? Are we actually communicating honestly? Right? You know, have we sought professional help? Like those are things. Are they act have you actually done that to really make that decision to get that separation, as you said? I'd love I with you. Victoria's analogy of that a separation is really like an engagement because people get engaged but they don't get married. People get separated, doesn't mean they have to get divorced. I think that's a really Chris (24:45) Yeah. Neil (24:46) good idea to really think about what what do you guys really want? R really where is the relationship? And like I said, it really forced you to think about who am I, where am I, what's up with this relationship, and how do I feel about it? Kyle (25:01) You know, not- Chris (25:01) You clipped out and you're back now, Neil. But you might need to get a air conditioner on your computer. Is it shutting Kyle (25:05) Hahaha Chris (25:06) down 'cause of heat or something? What's going on with you this week? But Kyle, what were you saying? Kyle (25:11) Yeah, so when I think about the marriage and when you come together as one entity, you think about the relationship stemming up to that, leading up to that, and there's still some hesitancy in letting yourself fully go. So as they always say, once you're married, the masks come off 100%. This Chris (25:37) Yeah. Kyle (25:38) is who you're living with. And I think, you know, especially for young folks that are getting married, I think there's a lot of growing up to do still because you, I mean, let's think about us just in general. Look how much we've evolved in our, as we age. Look at the compromise we've learned how to do. And that is something that, you know, I see as, you know, potential struggle, especially in young people that get married is they don't know how to compromise. And they never been put in a situation of compromise. So when they get together and that mask comes off, they don't know how to deal with it. They don't know how to compromise. And it becomes a struggle, you know, to, it just makes you mad. Where Chris (26:24) Mm. Kyle (26:25) now it's like, well, okay, let's talk about that a little bit more. Let's figure out how we can, you know, be on common ground, you know, as, especially as I age, right? And, you know, but when you're young, it's like, I don't like what you're doing. That makes me mad. Don't do it. Chris (26:41) Yeah. There's just there's so much there, you know, with how we interact and I I I think i you know, th there's there's one element there, Kyle, yeah, the masks come off. but clinically I think we're always filtering and such. And so i and actually I will directly in therapy help people to understand, you know, you you need to filter. you know, that's that's just being balanced, I mean with With our human behavior, we can think some crazy Kyle (27:12) Sure. Chris (27:13) ass things that we don't need to say. And Kyle (27:15) Right. Chris (27:16) you know, but but but we balance that. And I and I think that we you know we balance that between being genuine, being honest, but then also being vulnerable. you know, there's there's a feeling and a sense of all of this, like, you know, is your marriage really over? And you know, you hear people exclaiming You know, you say, Neil, your mom did, you know, like I'm done. I'm clearly I'm done with this. I'm wanting it to be over. But what Casey and I talked about in that first week was w what is that what does that really mean? Because sometimes what people are really saying is not what we're actually saying with the words, but they're saying something else. I mean, I am in pain. I cannot endure this pain anymore. That's what we're saying. I'm lonely or You know, I'm hopeless or I don't feel important to you or I feel like you're controlling me or I feel like this is this is hopeless. I feel hopeless about things. I don't know how to reconnect. You know, I don't know like you know the the the phrases that I hear in my office that drive me nuts, that don't really tell anything are things like, Well, we just grew apart. I'm like, I I I hate that one. You know, I personally have heard in my life the I love you but I'm not in love with you. I'm not in love with you. I what does it mean? You know? But but it what it means is these different things. I'm in pain. I'm feeling lonely. You y you know, I don't my needs aren't being met. That's what it means, but we don't know how to say that. Kyle (28:56) I mean, do you feel like, I mean, I'm sure you've heard it, it's like, you kind of have this situation where they're taking each other for granted and they're not saying the words that need to be said to make, to kind of keep that relationship going. And it's Chris (29:12) Yeah. Kyle (29:14) tough to, and look, just in general, life in general can create that kind of situation, I mean, between work and. know, kids and you know, going to this ball game or going to that ball game or being a taxi here, taxi there. And your mind just gets so overwhelmed. I mean, I can, you it happens, right? But at the same time, to your point, we need to be able to communicate together. And that's one of the strongest things to keep your relationship alive. Chris (29:42) It it is, it is. And communication is one of the things that couples come into my therapy all the time with the presenting problem. You can't communicate. We can't communicate. I hear that all the time. And you're you're raising the idea of taking things for granted. I don't think those are the issues. I I I don't. Because I think that people appreciate and they want to appreciate their spouse or be appreciated. I I think they want to convey what they're thinking and what they're feeling and they want to hear what the other person Is thinking, I think honestly what happens is the emotions go on and people can't control. They they don't know how to manage what the what's going on on the inside. And so they get stuck into a death spiral where you have the same devastating conversation over and over and over again and again and again. because it has the patterns in place. When you feel emotional, this is what you do and when you do that your spouse does this and so it just cycles. And I don't know think people know how to get out of it. Kyle (30:48) Now, do you think there's outside influences that are contributing to that? You know, they're talking to a friend or a friend of a friend or, and that, you know, now they're exacerbating a problem? Don't know. Chris (30:59) Yes, but not in the way not in the way that you are suggesting. there is outside influences from your childhood onward to today. Right? Yeah. Kyle (31:09) And that's kind of why I wanted to ask that question, right? Because are you getting direction from a friend or is there something deeper that's underlying? Chris (31:18) Yeah. I I I think there's unfortunately a lot of modeling that goes on and and and at least in my circles. Now consider the source I come from a divorced family. I've had a struggle with my own wife after thirty years and then I am a therapist that sees people for couples counseling. So I'm jaded over here about the healthiness, but I don't think there's a whole lot of healthy models and seriously because we know of the divorce rates was about, you know, fifty percent. It's been hovering around that the millennials brought it down to 45% there for a little while. I was like, man, I love that. That's f forty-five percent people getting divorced in the second marriage. Game over. It's so unstatistically friendly. And by the time you have a third marriage, just just don't. Just don't. Because it just doesn't work out. Kyle (32:10) And I guess I'm an anomaly because my parents weren't married in nearly 56 years. you know, now was it easy? No, I remember the fights. I remember the challenges that they ran into, you know, whether it was financial challenges or, you know, just them not being able to communicate clearly with each other. It wasn't easy by any stretch of imagination, but they somehow did it. there were times that I thought for sure that they were going to end up divorced, but they made it through. Chris (32:40) Gotcha, right. Yeah. Yeah, we'll bookend this with more of the conversation of is your marriage really over? shout out to Sonoma Law. I really am glad that I met them and I will refer people to them because they do family law right. They do it right. I even had a client we were talking about these shows and dealing with with the with therapy w and and he said, yeah, yeah, I know those guys. You know, they they have that cool billboard sign because you read the sign for a law office that says, and shame on you for doing this, whoever the law office is. You know, life is short. Get a divorce. I just think that's horrible. It's freaking awful. Well, Sodoma Law says life is short. Let's talk about it. Like they're actually intentionally working with the whole family. They're very mindful about what's going on with the kids. They'll do things like discernment therapy with people or discernment services. That's where you're you're really getting into like looking and making a discernment of like at the the first end of the show. Like, is this really necessary? Or are you really you know, what are you really wanting to do here? What's going on? Like they work with you and are are not just jumping in to try to tear your spouse up for anything that they can get from like Stupid lawyers do. I mean lawyers are awful, right? They have a bad, bad, bad reputation. Not a Sodoma law. They will have and what was it called, Neil? Afr I I I consistent consistently forget when the one of the lawyers sits down with the husband and the wife or both partners and and work together to kind of co coalide coalesce, not mediation, but it's in that vein. th agreements, so that you're not litigating and going crazy. And if you don't work it out with them You lose the law year and you to basically start all over as an incentive to like let's work this out. Well w do you remember what that was called? It drives me nuts. I Neil (34:39) No, I can't I can't think. I was trying to remember. Chris (34:42) I just can't lock it in my brain. I'm actually gonna talk to Caroline about that and and see if we might be able to develop some programming around that, but Sedoma Law. This is an advertisement for them on purpose because they do family law right. Okay. 'cause we had Caroline come in, or s or Chelsea come in and talk about separation episode man, we're gonna have to skip you through some of these things because I just you know, I knew this month was there's just so much. Three sixty three, episode three sixty three. Before you separate, can a trial separation save your marriage? The questions that Chelsea, I and Neil kinda kicked around or somebody was with us. where are the questions? I didn't write the therapy questions down. Yes, I did. Here they are. are you considering separation because your marriage is over or because your pain feels overwhelming? Okay. Two, what should every couple know before one person moves out? That was interesting conversation that we're just gonna have to say listen to the episode because Chelsea's hurt a lot. And then three, can a well planned separation actually improve the chances of reconciliation? And I'm giving a prolonged clear hell yeah to to that. what say you guys? What'd you think, Neil and and and and Kyle? What's what's what what'd you think about this topic? Neil (36:12) I mean I I think as she goes through it, I mean, though it was interesting 'cause Chelsea was not she said herself she's not very empathetic. She wants to Chris (36:22) I know she did. Neil (36:24) Which was funny 'cause you talked about with the other one, Caroline, you're like, I'm super apathetic and Chelsea's like, Yeah, that's not me. Like, I wanna do therapy, Chris (36:31) Mm-hmm. Neil (36:32) but I just I just if you come in with problems, you don't fix it, I I'm done with you, right? but what that gives her is the ability to really come at it from a logical standpoint. Here's what you need to do, you know, here's exactly the p the process you should follow because the more that you can come at this from a a process statement or process stance as opposed to a as opposed to an emotional stance it changes the the way that it happens. How many times have we heard the d ugly divorces or things because they're just mad at each other, right? Her Chris (37:08) Right. Neil (37:08) her approach to this is basically like, okay let's let's go through this very methodical but can you know, keep pushing through and I think that was a big thing that she talked about. Like when you do the separation allows you to cool off, allows you to talk about, allows you to figure out what's going on. Do you really want to, do you not want to, you know, really work through these things. So yeah, I thought that was a big part that that Chelsea brought in. Chris (37:32) Yeah, I agree. And the idea, you that i the therapeutic separation we we'll we'll leave as a as a topic but she was really clear about like what are the goals and I think this is where it came to like what does a successful separation look like? Because a lot of people are just so emotional. They're at their most devastating point in their life and they're not thinking about anything. They're really not rational. They're just they're just doing everything they can do to breathe because the emotion is kind of all over the place. What are your goals? What are the timelines? Do you do counseling? What expectations have you developed? How will you be a accountable about agreements that you make, co-parenting, finances, all of the things. It's like, you know, clarity in this process is the main goal. Kyle (38:20) Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. I think that is the best way to go about it because I have seen both sides of that coin when some of my friends have not gone to the point of creating boundaries and goals and what that means. And they're never able to reconcile. But I've also seen the other side where they said, OK, here's what we're going to do. We're going to take baby steps. We're going to go back to almost to the point where like we were dating and it let's see how that evolves from there. I, know, 100%, it's almost like you're doing a reset. Okay, here's the things that I need. Here's A, B, C, D, E, right? Here's a list. These are the things I would like for you to work on. Let's start gradually trying to see if we can come back together and make it a success. So I've seen both sides of it. And it does not Chris (39:19) Yeah. Kyle (39:19) work if you don't have those goals. Chris (39:22) Again, separation equals engagement. You you're not divorced, you're separated and Kyle (39:28) Great. Chris (39:29) you're you're now moving back in the in the cycle. You meet somebody, you like them, you date them, you mate with them, and then you get engaged with them, and then you get married with them. You do not continue another step towards divorce, you take a step back, and we call that engagement. I thought the Victoria was brilliant. I I thank her for that. It will go for the rest of my life. We we do. We gotta scoot along with a little bit of these things to be a little bit quick, unfortunately, because I could just hang out and talk about these things all day. But what should never happen during a separation, I think, was also a really important part of the show there. And I can't tell you how many times I see these things, man. Guys, listen, man and women, listen to these things. These are not I see them happening all the time when people are in their pain point. No communication is bad. Not having any goals of sorts that are clear is bad. Dating immediately is bad bad bad. Using children's as messengers is just effing wrong. I'm not gonna say the word as a family friendly show, but it's very very very very very very bad. Punishing one another, testing the other person as their your spouse. These are things that I see, man, it happens all the time. It's just it's so cringe worthy when you see this stuff going on. And the one that gets me the most is parent alienation. I just, gosh, it just I don't know, it does something to me when I see a parent. Even unintentionally. oftentimes, even in severe parent alienation situations, it is unintentional that you just speak badly about the other parent. Like just you can't. Do that stuff. Yeah, these are some things to just not do in separation. Kyle (41:26) Absolutely. you know, having gone through it and having had a kid that was involved with it, that was one of the goals. And, you know, it was actually something we put in the separation papers and ultimately divorce papers. Chris (41:38) Debt. Yeah. Kyle (41:40) You cannot speak bad about the other parent. You cannot, you know, put the child in the middle. And because we did not want to be, you know, just as you said, that child to see any parent as somebody that they're just passing information back and forth or to see that that parent in a bad light is like Chris (42:03) Right. Kyle (42:03) not going to do it. And it's just it is it's just wrong to put the child in the middle. Chris (42:08) And the reason why you don't do it is because it is absolutely devastating the psychology of the kid. It is devastating and I had seen that Kyle (42:15) Well, and it ruins your relationship with the child. I mean, it completely does. Chris (42:19) Yeah. It does. It even if you're the parent that you're that's looking good or whatever in time, Kyle (42:26) Mm-hmm. Chris (42:26) I'm telling you, that kid will figure that stuff out and they will resent you for it hard. And I've seen all of the variations of of that happening. but yeah, it's it's Kyle (42:35) Well, and now... Chris (42:36) a time to kinda get clear on what it is that we're trying to do so that we can kinda help the whole Kyle (42:40) Sure. Chris (42:41) family get through this series of events. Series of events by the way, it ain't an event, it's a series of events. Kyle (42:46) Right. Well, and I also say too, and one thing that we did is, you know, if the child got in trouble at one house, then the punishment transcended into the other house. And because of consistency, just a just because Chris (43:00) Yeah, absolutely. Kyle (43:01) just because you did it there doesn't mean you can get away with it here kind of thing. That's not that's not how this works. Right. Chris (43:05) Dad won't let me play the PlayStation. I'm outta here. I'm going to mom's house. She's grit. You suck. Kyle (43:12) And then when the child got in trouble, we as parents talked about it first before we engaged with the child. And but we did engage with the child together. Or if the one couldn't be there, we'd always say, yeah, little Susie got in trouble today and this is what happened. let's talk about it. I'm like, yeah. And that's really how we approached it. Chris (43:34) You know it's funny, man, we do that with our dog issue right now. We we we like totally totally Fletcher was acting a little weird again at nights this time. You know like, okay, what's going on? You know. Evidently I just got Fletcher back and he he hasn't pooped in four days. Yes, so I get the non-pooping dog custody arrangement today this week. But let's move on. We do do a segment in the show, practical questions. And that's where, you know, the therapists, Victoria, John, Casey, and I will give you a practical question as though we're doing therapy with you, thinking about it through the the screen here. And and this I will say is a practical question for you as a therapist from me to you, through the screen, through the audio there that you're listening to. to you've heard me mention it a few times already. Did w success. Have have you or your spouse discussed that question? What is a successful separation? What would that actually look like? Do do you know what your spouse thinks a successful separation is? Practically, that is one of the most important things. I I I I I shudder to think I've been doing therapy since nineteen ninety seven, working in the field since nineteen ninety five in one fashion or another, and I have never asked that question before. You rest assured I'll be asking couples that practical question moving forward for the rest of my career. So show three was episode three sixty four When Divorce is the right decision, how to end a marriage without destroying a family. Kyle, I wasn't There I was actually a best man in a wedding shout out to my boy Joe up in New York. so I wasn't there, but I understand the questions that Casey and ch and Caroline discussed were how do you know when you've truly done everything you reasonably could to save a marriage? Two, if divorce is the healthiest decision, how can you reduce unnecessary harm to everybody involved? And three, what does a healthy divorce actually look like? You know, do you have a standard for that? Neil, how did that show go? I was a YouTube watcher and a day of I caught like and thanks. Take care and have it next week. That's literally the what I got to hear live. How did the show go, Neil? Neil (45:57) It went amazing. as we've talked about before, Casey is you know, she's recently divorced as well, so she went through her experience about what that divorce looked like, the pros and the cons of it. I mean, really it was you know, and there was a lot of insight from Caroline and her experience with her her clients that she went through. It was interesting to hear some of the stories. She didn't go too in depth with it, but it was it was it was a great show. So if if you're really thinking about once again, separation. didn't work out, you're gonna get divorced. Go back and listen to it. Look at their pointers, because really a lot of it boils down to you as the parent, especially if you're if you have kids, you as the parent, your maturity is what dictates if this divorce is gonna destroy the family or not. Kyle (46:46) Yep. And especially when you have kids, how you behave within the separate, you know, within the separate households can determine whether or not you're going to alienate yourself with your kids. 100%. And whether or not you're going to communicate, you know, with that parent and co-parent together, even though you're not together, or if you're just going to let one handle it and just be done with it. Right? And It just depends on how Chris (47:13) I f I feel like Kyle (47:15) you define success. Chris (47:17) Yeah, it does. It it does. I get rid of this guy, this I don't have to deal with his a anymore. No, you know, I I feel like actually it's interesting that the actual divorce I'm trying to think of a metaphor or something that's like this, but you know how you you you're you're you're in something for so long and it's this this long build up and then it's like maybe it's like high school graduation. I mean it's like eighteen years of schooling. All right? And then you hit Senior year and you get senioritis and it's like boom graduation is the culmination and then it's everything after graduation, right? Like I feel like divorce is kind of like graduation. in a way. It's it's so so much goes into it, up to it. Then when you have a decision and clarity, excuse me, at least in North Carolina, you you got state laws all over the place. It was just Charlotte, North Carolina area. We have laws in North Carolina that you gotta be separated for a year before you get divorced. People oftentimes are wildly freaked out about that. but i y you know, even even a year if you think about it is kind of a quick thing, but the actual decision and the process and then it's afterwards. So we've been talking a lot about separation and and and are you sure is that really necessary? Divorce is so quick, and then it's the healing after the divorce that comes in my mind. That's the big rub. That's where it's like, okay, wow. How do we how do we recover from this? And so, you know, we don't have a whole lot of time for any of these two shows, but you know, I will say Neil (49:00) I think the interesting part about it is Chris (49:03) go ahead, yeah. Neil (49:03) Well the interesting part about when you talk about recovering and healing after the fact is the weird dynamic of it is your partner that you initially chose to marry that you would do things with, they're not there to help you heal. Which is so it's a really weird idea, Chris (49:19) Mm. Neil (49:20) right? The person you used to go to to help you deal with things is not there to help you deal with this big change in your life. It's this weird dynamic. Chris (49:31) Ky Neil, I Kyle (49:31) Yeah, and Chris (49:32) I have h hold on real quick, Kyle. I Neil, I have I have really observed people being in what I call their most decompensated state. That is what happens when people go through separation and divorce. They are hurting more than they've ever hurt in their life. It's one of the it it is by far the biggest and that is and and and and that's a dynamic that you just highlighted out. Sor sorry, Kyle. Kyle (49:54) Well, not only that, you lost a person that you confided in 100%. A person that you originally chose to spend your life with, but it also impacts friendships too. I mean, there's confidants Chris (50:06) Yes it does. Kyle (50:07) there on that friendship side that you have lost. And whether it's your best friend because you guys did something as a couple, well, now that best friend is not talking to you anymore because it was actually the wife that was the friend. Chris (50:23) Yeah. Kyle (50:23) to the other wife. So now you're kind of left on your own and not being able to have that friendship anymore. So there's those challenges as well. There's some folks that they don't care. They're gonna be Switzerland and they're not gonna play sides. But then there's some that you'll understand. It's like, all right, I'm just siding with the wife or I'm siding with the husband and that's it. So that's also another devastating part to it is friendships that you sacrifice as well. Chris (50:54) Yeah, and and and you always think like, you know, people aren't gonna choose sides but i i and and it's you know, you try to be Switzerland and it's it's just it's just a a fundamental nature of boundaries between humans. it's a struggle. you know, in my experiences as we're divorcing and stuff, we've we were very appropriate and, you know, we've been amicable and still are and You know, we can make jokes about the dog that hasn't pooped for four days and you know, it it it's like and but still, you know, I saw the the social dynamic, the threads that just tore even the social dynamic of of community apart and and people feel like they have to take sides and all of this. I mean if if if I if I could really try to accomplish one thing by this whole month. I think I would really water everything down to like bring the temperature down. Slow down your emotional explosiveness so that you can be objective and help your kids through this and not be unkind and mean and not have regrets and keep s communities gu I mean it's just there's no need for explosive anger. Rod. I mean that's just you not handling your emotions. So bring the temperature down, man. That's what that's what really strikes me. Right. May not be easy. In fact, it's quite hard. Man, how I you know, I just realized we're we're like at the end of the show, the end of the hour almost, and I don't think we're cracking hardly has there been one joke through this show? This is supposed to be the light month and review Kyle (52:43) No. Chris (52:46) show. What what's happening? What's going on? Neil (52:50) You did pick a very cheery topic of divorce this month. So I I feel I feel Chris (52:52) I know. Kyle (52:52) Mm-hmm. Yep. Neil (52:54) like you go through those cycles where it's like, We're gonna have a month about grief and then we're gonna have a month about divorce. Like, interesting. Chris (53:02) Well, it was your problem. You're the one that told me we should have a themed process, so I'm trying to hold that to heart. Neil (53:08) I think it's great to have the themes. It's just you go in cycles. Chris (53:12) We go up, Kyle. And then we go down. And then we go up. Neil (53:15) We are we are the bipolar podcast. Kyle (53:18) Yeah Chris (53:20) Man, man. the children are watching you, sir, when you're going through this. The children are watching you, ma'am, when you're acting the way that you are in divorce. as I said, we have a practical question segment that we like to do on the show. And I think I would end this divorce talking by kind of saying, look, first of all, w we don't need perfection. Yourself nor kids don't need perfection, but we need a mature behavior pattern. You know, we need some some some groundedness in this process when you've decided to go divorcing. the practical question is you have you have you truly separated things out? I I think there's a there's a big internal process that people struggle with, which results in marital struggle and fighting and battling. This is literally the person that you chose. You, sir, chose her. You, ma'am, literally were the exclusive party that determined I choose him. And then that divulges into Your internal emotional experience is not being managed very well. So have you separated your anger or your shame or your guilt? Have you separated your emotion from the decision making that you're doing? When you've actually engaged and decided divorce, fine. You'll have recovery later. But we need to still separate your anger or your emotion disruption from your decision making. This is a process, that's all it is. Which is why, by the way, lawyers can be very helpful in understanding, you know, they they take the emotion out of it. They're just they're not invested in this. I don't know. I wasn't a part of the show because I was part of a wedding. While you guys were talking about divorce Neil, I was I was the best man in a wedding. So ironic. Almost literally Neil (55:19) I think it's great. Chris (55:20) at the exact same time, too. Any other comments about how that show went, like Carolyn and how she was or, you know, anything that stuck out in your mind specifically that Carolyn wanted to really highlight? Neil (55:35) No, don't think so. Just go back and watch it, you know, kinda see how she how she addressed her process. Like I said, it was very good how she very clearly went through that. Like I said, Casey talked about her her divorce. So it was like I said, if you're getting to that point, go back watch it. Get listen to what they say. Once again, a divorce is the end of a relationship between you and the other person, but it's not the end of the relationship with your children, those that are around you. You just once again you want to be careful what you do. during that moment and that practical question of separating anger from decision making is a huge first step. 'Cause I know some divorces can get very heated and you make really weird decisions when you're angry. So Chris (56:18) My mother decided to bite the arm of my dad as he was coming upstairs to get the stereo and the cops were called. That's how that's how heated it can get. Jump. I was like, wow, what is happening here? I was like ten. It could be devastating and memories like that burn into you? Your spouse and certainly, you know, the the children. So we wrapped this up in way of segment or f show four, episode three sixty five, Casey and I went ahead and circled back around to bookend what we weren't able to get to. Actually Casey and I didn't do that. He that I did that show with our group was all jacked up this month. Neil (57:04) It was Victoria, I think. This last one. Chris (57:05) Yeah, I think you're right. So Victoria and I, Casey and I started it, Victoria and I took it out and we did the other segments that we weren't able to get to to to forward that question. Are are are is your marriage really done? So episode three sixty five was a continuation of episode three sixty two where before you file for divorce, is your marriage really over? Every couple should know continued and I I think that there were some things very clearly that we we went into in warning signs. You know, have have you ha have you clearly identified your negative cycle? Have you truly listened to each other? Have we truly talked about unmet emotional needs? People don't even like to mention that they have needs, by the way. Gosh. These are hard hitting things and we do do them in therapy, by the way. Have you considered marriage counseling? And why would would we regret not trying one more intentional effort? I mean these are just questions every couple should should answer and whatnot and I I don't know, where did we land, right? Where did you know, did we try to bookend this whole thing and you know it it's it's it's it needs to be highlighted that we in therapy don't have an agenda. It's not like, you know, we get a vote or you know, we're steering somebody in any particular direction. Now, I do like to say that I have a a lean and I actually believe kind of a hard lean towards, you know, what I know helps people long term studies show. Scientifically what's healthier is to be able to reconcile. And I you know, if you can if you can you know if you can realize that reality is You can fall back in love. People are so worried about I I hate you now. I I I've I've fallen out of love. We're just too far apart. I c I I kinda hate the term irreconcilable differences. I I don't know what those are. Because I've seen the beauty in the therapy offices of people who I never thought had a shot at getting together, by the way. Absolutely reconcile. And they become deeper and stronger and more, you know, in love or close than they ever thought possible. It that literally happens all the time. And not just in therapy offices, but in life. So I don't know, to highlight this question, is your marriage really over? Is something that I lean towards because I know that the healthier realities can be with reconciliation. But when you do get separated, when you do get divorced, there's definitely some healthier options that you can do than my mama biting my dad's arm off. Kyle, that was Kyle (59:52) Right, Yeah. Now, I mean, I'll go back to something Neil just said, said, talking about the previous segment is, you know, that person that you chose to marry is your confidant. That's the one that you open up to. And, you know, a lot, I think going back to what we discussed earlier, where there's a lack of communication, you know, are you making yourself vulnerable and opening up to that person that you chose? Is there, are you hiding things or not being able to share openly? And that's what's creating the conflict or the thoughts that you shouldn't be having, all of those kinds of things. Because I do see, I think through that and I can see where that can create a lot of tension between couples. Chris (1:00:47) A lot of tension. Like I said, the enemy is not your spouse, Kyle. That's what I was talking about before, brother. as as responsible human beings that the enemy is the pain that we create together, that space in between. It isn't communication. Kyle (1:01:01) Yeah. Chris (1:01:02) I I really do. I'd love to tell people you c you don't have a communication problem. You've planned a marriage, you've had kids, you talk about all sorts of amazing things that you you know, you you budget together and maybe not well, but, you know, you you you you have done those things well. The reason why you don't do them well is because you get emotional. When you have emotion you can't talk about Coke or Pepsi at the grocery store. Kyle (1:01:23) break. Chris (1:01:25) He he got no shot 'cause the emotion's just driving it then it's like you're you're done. Cooked. Kyle (1:01:32) I will tell you, during COVID, I worked from home for several years before COVID. And then when COVID hit, my wife started working from home. Now, everybody, yeah, right? So she's in her office, I'm in my office. You would think, she's like, okay, I don't know if I could be with my spouse for that long. And that's what everybody would say to me. It's like, Chris (1:01:51) Alright. Covered. Kyle (1:01:54) how's that working? Is it like creating more Chris (1:01:55) Mm-hmm. Kyle (1:01:56) stress? And I'll be honest, I think it strengthened our relationship. Believe it or Chris (1:02:01) Love that. Kyle (1:02:01) not, it went completely the opposite of what everybody thought. Because, you know, I Chris (1:02:07) Interesting. Kyle (1:02:07) think a lot of people go to work and they say, well, I get a break from my spouse for a little bit. Here, it's like, you know, when now she's not at home, like she's gone away for the weekend. Okay. I still text her. I'm like, okay, hey, how are you? What you doing? You know, all those kinds of things I would be able to typically walk down the hall and say to her. So it's a little bit different scenario, but you know. Chris (1:02:27) Mm. that's interesting. So you didn't do that before COVID and working from home and now you do that after. That's what you're saying? Yeah, new skills. Kyle (1:02:35) Yeah, I mean, we actually miss each other when we're away from each other. So, yeah. Chris (1:02:40) Yeah. Yeah. Neil (1:02:41) But I I I think the key to that statement was people say, I need a break from my spouse. The fact that you have that mindset that you need a break from your spouse 'cause I I mean I'm my wife does her art in in the bedroom, I work in my office and we we try to keep separated, get our stuff done 'cause we're very distracting to each other. It's like, what are you doing? Hey, what's going on now? Kyle (1:02:59) Isn't right? Neil (1:03:01) But but it's it's really a mindset of Sometimes I think sometimes people are this is it may sound weird, but s I think some people are too selfless in a relationship and they don't really state what they want or what they're going through. I know I've there Chris (1:03:16) definitely. Neil (1:03:17) there was one part in our relationship my wife's like, I feel like we're cohabitating. That's like that was said this has been a decade or somewhat it's been a while. But my wife came in and said I feel like we're cohabitating, what's going on. Like like I really our relationship isn't the same as it was before because once again, kids, work, hobbies, whatever, right? But my wife was was basically saying, I need more from this relationship than what it currently has. Once again, this is her being aware of the situation and being selfish enough to say, I want this to work and I need more out of it. And she came and she communicated with me saying those things, right? She made that choice. Because that would be that would be one of those times when you talk about those people that say, I fell out of love with someone, or, you know, I didn't do this. Well, she made the choice to say, I still want to love him, but we need to work on something. And so I'm going to explain it to her because from her side, she needed more and she expressed that. I think there's a lot of people who try to go give too much into a relationship. They don't really talk about what they want. You know, this goes back to the boundaries, things that Rebecca not Rebecca Victoria's talked about where you need to be selfish. Here's what I want in this relationship. And then going back to the communication. If you let your emotions t overtake you, you can't communicate. So Kyle (1:04:32) Yep. And I think, with me and my wife, we have a very healthy relationship. And the reason why I say that is, as much as we love being around each other, we also encourage each other to go out and do stuff with friends. She has many different friends' cliques. I have many different friend cliques. And I'm able to go do stuff with those different friends. And I go on golf trips. She's gone to a girls' weekend this weekend. It's OK. We don't get mad at each other. We know we're going to miss each other, we're going to be back together before long. And that's healthy. Chris (1:05:09) Well we're talking about a balance there. Yeah. Kyle (1:05:12) Yeah, there is a nice little balance. She can do what she wants to do with her friends. I can do what I want with my friends. She's not making me do everything that she does. I'm not making her do everything that I do, even though she's now taking up golf. But that's her decision, not my decision. Chris (1:05:31) There might have been some influence there. Kyle (1:05:31) But you know, there is that balance, right? Her joke is, well, if I ever gonna see you, I needed to learn to play golf so I can see you on the course at least, so yeah. Chris (1:05:42) Neil, this cat this time of year golfs freaking constantly. I mean constantly. It's crazy. Poor girl, I tell ya, she had to. She's Kyle (1:05:51) You Chris (1:05:52) not wrong either. All right, we need to wind it up, wind it down. a powerful group of shows this month. I know this is a really difficult time in the life of a family and of a couple. And there are so many things that that can get into the way. I I guess I would ask another practical question in this last show of, you know, if your partner or you genuinely changed. would you still want the marriage to end? It's it's a lot of doubt and a lot of fear, a lot of hopelessness, a lot of helplessness kicks in into our psyche when we're in marital strain and pain. And I think that what I'd really like to get among everything is again, bring the temperature down and realize these feelings that you have oftentimes very much are lies. They're not true. You're not helpless. You're not powerless. You have the ability. You don't know what to do right now. Search, find, reach out, you know. Get get into therapy. Get in with your pastor. Get in with your rabbi. Get in with your friend. You know Break down whatever barriers. Self help books are out there. Listen to a podcast. I got a great book through a therapist size. Do something. Reach out. Learn. Because it's it's worth it. And I'll end as I did the the wrap up. the last show that Victoria and I were on where she just c scrammed me for being too long, Neil. I'm like, wait. I just ended with a very powerful, poignant word that means a lot to me. And it comes from my friend who who who had these conversations with me at two o'clock in the morning, shout out to my boy Adrian. And every time we had these emotional, painful conversations when I was struggling so deeply with separating and divorcing and marital strain, he always used these three words. And I ended the marital book that I wrote with these three words for that exact reason, because I believe it. And he was telling me exactly what I needed to hear at the end of our conversations every single time. And the words were simply, I'll end the show by saying, you can do it. So stay well. Take care. Kyle, thanks for hanging out with us. Neil, thanks for coming out from the County Kyle (1:08:13) Thanks for having me. Chris (1:08:14) Curtain. Yep. And we will see you guys next week. Kyle, we'll see you next month. Take care. Kyle (1:08:20) Sounds good.