In Episode 371 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we examine the tragic case of Lindsay Clancy following the September 2026 mistrial declaration—where a jury split 11–1 over whether the Massachusetts mother was criminally responsible for the deaths of her three children during what her defense argued was an acute break from reality. We break down the vital clinical distinction between common postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis—a severe, highly unpredictable psychiatric emergency marked by delusions, hallucinations, and severely compromised reality testing. Merging legal and psychological frameworks, the panel explores how a diagnosis alone doesn’t resolve criminal responsibility, tackling the complex question of whether deliberate planning refutes the presence of psychosis. Finally, we speak directly to listeners about recognizing early warning signs, overcoming the shame surrounding frightening post-birth thoughts, and balancing empathy for devastating psychiatric illness with the difficult demands of justice.
Tune in to see Criminal Responsibility Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How can a loving parent become so psychiatrically ill that she becomes dangerous to herself or her children?
- When does severe mental illness change how we should think about responsibility for a horrific act?
- What should families and mental-health professionals recognize about postpartum illness before a crisis occurs?
Links referenced during the show:
https://apnews.com/article/lindsay-clancy-trial-holdout-juror-999539982691ae345cadb90321243f96
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/anxietyanddepression/parenting
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/personalstories
Chapter 1.2 | Insecurities can make us delusional.
I’d actually use this carefully because clinical psychosis is very different from the colloquial “delusional” you’re describing in the chapter. That distinction itself could be useful.
Chapter 1.4 | Guilt, fear, and insecurities twist reality into negative thinking.
Again, useful for showing a continuum while clearly distinguishing distorted emotional thinking from loss of reality testing.
Chapter 1.7 | Depression can create a predisposition to negative thoughts.
Chapter 1.23 | The body goes as the brain thinks.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #371 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello, this is Through a Therapist Eyes, and you are finding us on September the 10th of 2026. And it occurs to me that this is one day off from that weird day of November the 11th. 9 11 is what we call it in the States and around the world, I believe people. September Kasie (00:18) September the eleventh. Yeah. Chris (00:21) the 11th. Not well, we we say 9 11 though, right? Yeah. did I really? Okay. I've been having a day, y'all. Kasie (00:24) Yeah, but you said November eleventh. Yeah, you did. Yeah. Victoria (00:28) Mm. John (00:29) Yeah, it's very interesting. Chris (00:29) Our brain's a little tired. Maybe we should start over, but let's get through the intro. You're finding us on September the tenth, two thousand and twenty six. And for anybody kind of thinking about the terrorist attacks, nine eleven has become, you know, a a day in infamy as has been quoted on other days and around the world, I think it affects it affects everyone to some extent. So be aware of that. We're thinking of you. And we also have a very lively show today. this is episode 371 and it's all gonna be about the Lindsey Clancy trial, the postpartum psychosis, mental illness, and criminal responsibility. This is a big topic, and right off the get-go, I wanna give an explicit warning, Neil, if you'll help us out to give us an awareness of what we'll be talking about. Neil (01:17) Yeah, just just be aware that as we talk about this gonna be a lot of sensitive topics. We'll be talking about murder, suicide, psychosis, a lot of things that people struggle with on a day to day basis. So just yeah, this is kind of a a sensitivity warning just so that way if you don't want to hear these things, if you're you're not interested in the case, if this is something you listen to with your kids, definitely probably should not be a show they listen to today. also just wanted to also want to mention that if you are thinking about suicide or anything like that, you know, always call nine eight eight. You know, always there are resources out there. So if you're thinking about harming yourself or others You know, reach out 988, you know, talk to an expert, talk to your therapist, talk your friends, just do what you need to to to help yourself and those around you. Chris (02:01) Appreciate it, Neil. And we used his voice so that you would hear that. This is an explicit show, or this isn't an explicit show. We we were a family show and you know, we might let a you know, Victoria and you and I might let a word pop now again or something, you know, but we we keep it clean, keep it family friendly, but this is a pr pretty tough issue. many people have have have been watching this extensively and it it is I just I can't imagine being these these drawers. So it it 'cause these are As we get into it, and if you don't know some of the details, we're gonna share some of these details and it can be very triggering. So please be aware of that, be on guard, take care of yourself. As the lady on Big Brother says, just love one another. It's true. As Pat McAfee says on the McAfee show. Victoria (02:45) Yeah. What is it? Chris (02:47) Be a good friend, say something nice, you might you might change their life. And and those those things are not just token. They're they're really meant. We we carry those. So this is where you get insights about mental health and substance abuse from a panel of therapists, and we have ever John (02:55) Trying to reconnect. Chris (03:00) Everybody today, Miss Victoria Pendergrass is with us. Mr Mr. John Victoria (03:05) I'm here. Chris (03:06) Pope just jumped off. He's having some internet problems, but he'll be back. And Miss Casey Morgan hanging out. Kasie (03:11) Hello. Chris (03:14) This is where you get insights of John (03:14) Okay. Chris (03:15) your home and from your car, personal and private, but not the delivery of therapy services in any way. We are looking for you to do your part. We provide you content about mental health and substance abuse. Please subscribe, like for real. This is a important show too, and I suspect I may refer a lot of people to this particular episode because boy, it's a big one. when I told the team the topic, Casey's like, I have thoughts. Right? So Kasie (03:42) Yes. Chris (03:43) so please share this with a friend. This is an important episode. I'm telling you, it Victoria (03:48) For sure. Chris (03:49) it's so big. And I want as many people to hear this particular episode as possible. I'm gonna drone on about it so much I want to for another twenty-three seconds because please, we you know, we're looking for the five stars and all the ratings and all the podcast stuff, but really y I know you're listening to this show and you know somebody that's either been affected, is afraid of being affected, or is currently actually affected with hormones, postpartum, all these things. So please, please, please. Y it's a terrifying reality to go through this alone. Okay. I know that as a guy only because I've walked through this with women for many, many years. And this is not something to be alone about. Now we say that on the show regularly, but this one really, really counts. So listen to it with a friend, send it to a friend. Let's get the dialogue in a better place than where I think to some extent it has been on social media and we'll probably talk about that. Kind of as well. Lots and lots of myths, stereotypes, and stigmas on this one, y'all. I mean it's it's not there's just a lot. So Apple Spotify, we're on all those things. Contact it through a therapist eyes is a great way to interact with us. We do YouTube lives on six fifteen to six thirty on Thursdays. It's also a great way to interact because we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. So this is the human emotional experience which We endeavor to figure this one out together, boys and girls, because man, we got one. What is this the sense of this topic being therapists as all four of us are, and speaking to the world about what these issues are? What what is I'm just kinda curious what this is like for the three of you. Kasie (05:34) I I I think it's really difficult because I think that there are properties of this case that if it does go to retrial, we are looking at setting a precedence moving forward for how people view mental illness at large and sometimes that can be favorable and sometimes that can be unfavorable. and I think it's gonna set some precedence that we're gonna see a lot of things tried differently in our country. And I think we'll see a lot of rhetoric come out about this for generations to come. This will be a landmark court case. Chris (06:16) Right. John (06:29) think part of my excuse me, part of my concern is is that was on the that people came out of the shoot so quickly out of the gate that were on the jurors. And there were eleven jurors that were voting to acquit her. I I'm not quite sure what they were gonna vote in terms of her mental condition or mental illness. But there was one that was a holdout and he was going to convict. And I don't know if I think we might not have might be surprised by that outcome, but a lot of the decisions were made hearing some of this and and and reading some of this, they were actually talking about feelings a lot. Chris (07:27) Yeah. John (07:27) and not talking about the law and were not as careful as they could have been. I think that did a disservice to the defendant, but Chris (07:28) Yeah, John, I'm I'm curious just to poke back at you and then Victoria, I'm curious if you're willing to comment just these being a professional and doing the show and talking about it, John, how does that does that what does that evoke in you personally? John (07:38) also a disservice to the to the criminal justice process. it tears me up and because of it it reminds me that this is as old as history itself, even prehistory and its earliest mythology were infanticide was occurring and that i it's the death of children and to me is is I'm I'm I'm stuck between thinking, well, the person must have some sort of mental Chris (08:29) funny that this isn't new. You know, it's it's it's been around. Victoria, how how how about you if you'd be willing? John (08:35) defect or some sort of psychological issues or or criminal intent to do that, that they would do that to a child because it goes opposite of our nurturing Victoria (08:39) I am going to be honest and say that I only know a little bit about this case because I John (08:48) side, our wanting to have a family and bring that child into life and raise it. Victoria (08:49) have not really dived into it. And so but I am from what I know, I am nervous. I'm kind of backing up what Casey said on like what kind of precedent this is gonna set moving forward and then how could that potentially impact like people's view on therapy and people's view on mental health and whether or not like it's an effective thing or, you know, like how those opinions get shaped. So Chris (09:20) Yeah, and to answer my own question, John, it tears me up too, man. This is this is a hard one. I mean, as we get into the facts of the case, we're very briefly. I will say in the front end, you know, that we're not legal experts. Okay. We we n none of us here are legal experts, but we are experts in mental health. And the reality here is that there's such an amazing overlap. Like I y'all, I cannot imagine how those jurors' brains were blowing apart trying to grasp things that you will hear in our conversation. we struggle to grasp because this has a lot to do with hormones. and and and our limited understanding has been documented on this show about the hormone endocrine system in itself anyway that that makes it just really difficult to understand, frankly. We do reflective questions in the beginning of the show, and so I want to reflect on those. How can a loving parent become so psychiatrically ill that she becomes dangerous to herself or her children? That's these are just hard questions to even ponder. You know? when does severe mental illness change how we should think about responsibility for a horrific act? And thirdly, what should families and mental health professionals recognize about postpartum illness before a crisis occurs? And that one there is I you know, boy, as we get into this, is it's gonna we can't predict these things. It's there's no predictive measure for mass murder events and and and the whatnot. here's what I wanna do. so somebody take the segment one there, just blow through the facts of the case, and then what I wanna Kasie (11:00) Mm. Chris (11:00) do is give you a case example that I experienced that kind of really turned me on years ago now that demonstrates what it is that we were we were dealing with. So why why don't one of you guys just blow through segment one there real quick and and tell us What's the basics of Lindsay Clancy in Massachusetts, the criminal case? Kasie (11:19) Yeah, so the the crux of the case, first of all, it goes back three years, right? And it and it is an important facet that we do discuss that this took place in Massachusetts, which I'll talk about in a little bit. But in January of 2023, Lindsay Clancy, who to this day has not denied killing her three children, but her defense is arguing that she had postpartum psychosis, which we will do a distinction and differentiation. Between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, because those are exclusively two different things. but the grounds here is to determine in this cut trial that just took place, that just ended in a mistrial, like Chris said, the 11 jurors to one. that during the trial the defense argued that the postpartum psychosis developed a sense within her to where she lost touch with sensibility and rationality temporarily and cannot be held criminally responsible at the time of the event of the crime that took place. So she does admit to killing her children and then she attempted to take her own life to which she was unsuccessful in doing that and became paralyzed. On the prosecution is arguing that while there's no disagreement on the present presence of a mental illness, that they do not believe that she is absolved of the criminal act of murder because there were several pieces of evidence that they presented to try and to determine that she was reasonable and responsible during those periods of time. which led to a lot of conflict in the country, a lot of conflict on social media and internationally, and really kind of blew things up with what this kind of means going forward, if this ends in a mistrial and there's no other course of action taken, or if they will retry the case and the prosecution will try to go again. For a murder conviction. So in the state of Massachusetts, it is important to point out that there are two distinct verdicts that a person can get. In other states, and I think this is where we can kind of get to too later on, but I think a lot of terminology is important as we're discussing the case because in the state of Massachusetts, you are either guilty or Not guilty or not guilty for reasons of insanity. Okay, so NGRI is the other verdict. In other states in the United States, you can have guilty, not guilty, not guilty by reasons of insanity, or guilty with a mental illness. And so I think the terminology is important because the jurors in this situation only had basically two verdicts that they were looking at. Either she's guilty with criminal intent or she's not. Not guilty and on the basis of insanity. Chris (14:27) Okay, let's try to be brief here. Yeah, John? Wait, you're muted. What you're there you go. No, you're good. You're good now. Kasie (15:13) Yeah, so in this case the prosecution, the the burden of proof is on them to prove that she had maintained rationality during the act instead of the defense having to defend that she was psychotic during the act. Yes. Chris (15:30) Okay, so here's the thing. again, we're not lawyers, guys. And so I I know there's been a lot of people tracking this case intently day to day to day and watched every ounce of evidence. It's almost like the O. J. Simpson trial back in the eighties or nineties when I was a kid. You know, a and we're not going to parse out the legal system. It's messy, but it's important. There's different legal systems all around the world and I'm curious about the different states, but the different countries as well and how we deal with this. What I want us to be focusing on in John (15:37) I'm muted. In Massachusetts, the prosecution has to prove that that Clancy was having this in was guilty and by reason of insanity she had to prove in other words that she but didn't have to prove it Chris (16:00) I think you can expect is the mental health elements that this just explodes with because that's where things get really confusing and then you try to apply the law. Here's here's a case study that I want to start off with. Well, before I do that, this is where I'm gonna get explicit for a moment because people have seen it on social media and my clients have been talking about it. and John (16:07) on the other hand, the in in every other state you it is the defendant that has to prove that they are insane. I think that's very important, subtle difference. Chris (16:21) it it it really raises serious points of anger, like how can a mother do this? John (16:27) Mm-hmm. Chris (16:27) So I want to be detailed for a moment. If you got kids around, please t take take them out. This is a pause stop. Don't don't don't kids don't need to hear this. But it was brutal. This this this this scenario was absolutely brutal. Miss Clancy took a stretch exercise band and suffocated, wrapped it around her five year old child, I believe it was five. And it takes like three to five minutes for somebody to die that way, and then did that with their three year old next. And then did that with her eighteen year old next. Kasie (17:01) No, eight month old. Chris (17:03) Eight month. Eight I thought it was eighteen months old. Eight month old. Kasie (17:06) Nee, een mantel. Chris (17:08) That's brutal. And then wanted to move and complete the act of suicide. People hear that and they're like, Friar, that's murder, like that. No, no, no. And I say that off the front end here to elicit that feeling, that emotion. But now let's talk about it. Let's let's Deal with our own emotion and get into a place of try to make sense out of what's happening here. How is this possible? Yeah, John. Yeah, she's permanently paralyzed. That that was what the act of jumping out the window resulted in. So I came across the lady years ago. And this is when I began to be like, Whoa, what are we dealing with? This is probably about seven, eight, nine, ten years ago now. And it was this John (18:20) Any map. Chris (18:21) lady that came in for a mandatory referral. And it was odd because usually when that's the case, somebody's got a dirty drug screen or they're aggressive, they're gonna fight some broke some law or rule. And the workplace, like yo, to save your job, go get help. That wasn't this lady's circumstance. She was asking weird questions. She was asked acting oddly. And people in her small professional office in town here were concerned about. And so I met with her and I I don't know what was going on with her at first. I I just I was so baffled. and the more and more that I got to talk to her, she began to develop trust four or five sessions in, and she started sharing with me explicitly. John (18:55) Yeah, it's she slit her own throat and then she threw herself out of the second story window and was trying to kill herself. So there was that intent that I think was there. But I'm you know, I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a jury. But she as a result, I think she was trying to kill herself and so she's paralyzed. She's you know, she has up our Chris (19:02) bottom line, to shorten this up, like she was full blown psychotic, delusional, right? And believing people were claiming she had HIV positive and tracking her on the internet, a lot of delusional, which is a psychotic experience, experiences. And there's no reason for this. I ru I ruled everything out. I'm ruled PTSD, I ruled depression, I ruled brief psychotic episode, bipolar, depress, you know, all these things. And and there's nothing that I can see with this lady that I'm wicked confused and really want to help her. John (19:24) upper movement in her in her body, but not in her limbs. Chris (19:29) And finally, I don't know how, but I figured out, like, I wonder if there's a menopausal effect John (19:31) Permanently repairing the question. Chris (19:33) here. And I Googled it and I read down the list and she's like, Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. I'm like, Wow, wait, is this menopause? Can this create psychosis? And I'll never forget in my life now. I Googled, Google, can you be psychotic with menopause? And absolutely you can. Listen, she identified this. We figured this out and like not more than a week, two, three weeks later. Boom, she's telling me, I don't know how I believed these things. Okay. That to me demonstrates the power of what it is that we've talking about and how much somebody can be affected when you're in the throes of your body's chemistry. That's all this is, going wack-a-doo. Right? In her case, it went really wack-adoo. Right? But I don't know. What is your all's reaction to that? If I have you come across this, do you deal with hormones in your practice very often? And then let's get to some of the things we need to get to. Kasie (20:34) Yeah, I mean definitely I deal with hormones in my own personal life, but also in Chris (20:39) Mm-hmm. Kasie (20:40) my own practice as well. But y yeah, I mean I I think that to me what you really have to think about when it comes to hormones is basically like it's like the circuit breaker of the body, right? So typically speaking, what's gonna happen to a person that has any kind of hormonal shift, whether it's menopause, childbirth, you know, you name it, but it also happens to men too. So it's not like these are hormonal shifts that Chris (21:08) Can I just jump in and reinforce that? This is Kasie (21:11) Go ahead. Chris (21:11) not just women. It's dudes too. Yeah. Kasie (21:14) Mm-hmm. So, so anyway, it's it's a biological circuit breaker. So basically, depending on your vulnerability subset, right? And that's a big fancy way of saying that sometimes we're genetically loaded this way, sometimes we're not. Sometimes trauma and other effects of life have you know, really altered the way that our body handles things. And so this plunge that happens to these hormones during these different periods of life can cause almost like an electrical malfunctioning in your home, as you would see from storms and otherwise. It happens inside of the brain and body. And what it can look like is that a person can appear completely different in their personality. They can have a lot of impulsiveness. They can Rush to judgment. Difficulty with sustaining relationships, emotional regulation, all of this stuff, because it's instantly impairing your prefrontal cortex. So when you have a dip in hormones, especially with women when it comes to estrogen, serotonin dopamine, so on and so forth, when you have a dip in those hormone receptors, then it really blows all the fuses, so to speak, in that brain activity and it impairs your prefrontal cortex almost instantaneously. So, you know, so that is a reality. Like that's something that we face and men and women, but a lot of times, you know, we hear about it, hear about it more John (22:52) Yeah. Kasie (22:53) concerning women than we do men. Chris (22:56) And I think it's fair to say that it's more dramatically loud with women than it is for men. And we're talking about menstrual cycles. We're obviously talking about pregnancy. We're talking about menopause kind of as well. All of those are are really destabilizing. and I'll reiterate again, you know, men go through this too. I'm right in the middle of this, man. I feel warm today. I Victoria and I were chatting before the show started. She's like, You're mean, you're hot. I'm like I don't know. Yeah, it's strange. Sleep is different, metabolism is different, stamina is different, eyesight is different, hair loss is different. Like and the list goes on to literally 30 more things. It's wild. But here's the big thing for the for the panel. Is this manageable? Kasie (23:44) Yeah, it's absolutely manageable. Chris (23:44) Hormone Victoria (23:45) Yeah. Chris (23:46) fluctuation. Victoria (23:46) Yeah. Chris (23:49) I you know, I I want Victoria (23:49) I'll see. Chris (23:50) the two two ladies to really comment here for a little bit because I cannot imagine. I've thought a lot about this. Like I cannot imagine being ten years old sometimes, eleven, twelve, thirteen, and having to go through puberty experience where I'm literally, you know, bleeding out of things. It's like, what? This has got to be terrifying. Like, can Victoria (24:14) You mean Chris (24:15) you imagine not knowing what's happening? Not having a loving parent, not having guidance, not having somebody there to like say, look, it's okay, you're we're gonna deal with this. You're just growing up, you're becoming a woman, and da da da. That must have been almost traumatic. Victoria (24:33) Yeah, I actually I mean I was lucky enough that my mom was heavily, heavily, heavily involved in like making sure I was prepared when I hit puberty. But I do n personally know people and have worked with people who did not have someone there. And it is kind of true, like I mean, all of a sudden you have like blood in your underwear one day and like, you know, you think like you're dying or something. You know, like it's Chris (25:01) Seriously. Victoria (25:02) It's a lot. And so, yeah. And then it's and I think that there's a lot of like there's benefits of having education behind it. Like knowing that it's like your uterine walls are shedding, you know, and like that's what it is. And like why they're like why Chris (25:19) no big deal. Victoria (25:20) they're doing that, you know, like because they're they didn't find you know, because you your eggs didn't find sperm to make a baby. And so then it's like mad at you. And so it's like, ha, I'm gonna shed and we're gonna try this again in a month, you know, and like do the process all over again. And so I think that like, no, like it can be, but it's I will say, like we've mentioned, that it is manageable and there are resources out there to like John (25:46) I think it is manageable. Victoria (25:48) help navigate the symptoms and things that you feel because of like your menstrual cycle. Chris (25:57) Casey? Kasie (25:59) Yeah, I mean I I do think it's manageable. I think that there's other things that arise though, right? So one of the joys of my life is that I become severely anemic. For about nine days out of the month. And that can cause a whole plethora of issues, right? Like I've had episodes of blacking out, passing out, you know, things like that. when I was 12, I passed out at the movies. that was real embarrassing. Like it's just a Chris (26:27) man. Kasie (26:27) lot of different things. But what accompanies that, I think, in addition to the act of blood loss, is also a hormonal fluctuation, right? Like the the way our thing. Is shifted, the way that we're feeling is shifted, the way that we respond and react to things is different. And sometimes it can be okay, and sometimes it's not okay, and sometimes it's tears, and sometimes it's yelling. It can be all over the place. But I think that what's an important distinction here is that these types of hormonal fluctuations are very manageable. when you get to menopause, it's a lot of symptom management as opposed to John (27:07) Fuck the military carry. Kasie (27:09) hormonal management. There are efforts out there that can help you through your provider, through medications, things like that. There's a lot of natural ways to also assist with your hormones and those flact fluctuations. but you know, for other people, that's not always an option. And I think that's when it gets frustrating. is that when you're unable to take any type of replacement therapy and you have to figure out like different alternatives to be able to mainstase this within yourself so you don't feel so chaotic or disorganized and things like that. I mean it's just it's a lot. It's a lot of information, it's a lot of things to notice, to take note of. And if you don't address it, it doesn't get addressed with you. So when you go in for a physical, if you're not addressing some of the perimenopausal symptoms that you're having, then they're not really speaking to you about perimenopause until you go through full-on menopause. So there's Chris (28:15) Right. Kasie (28:16) a whole window of time where all of these symptoms are having some buildup where there could be a lot of preventative steps that we're not addressing prior to menopause. Chris (28:27) Here's the thing. Casey and Victoria, I'd love to s hear you respond, because John, can you imagine the situation where a a young girl prepubescent is experiencing what Victoria and Casey just helped us men understand their personal experiences? And thank you, ladies, both, for that, because I know that, you know, this is a difficult topic. It's very personal. And like, my gosh, can you imagine going through a little bit of what Casey and Victoria just said? And then go to your parent and the parent says, no, no, no, you're fine, this isn't anything. Or you go to a doctor and the doctor says, no, that's too early. You must have just did too many squats or you know, y you y something's something else is wrong with you. That's that's not the issue. I can't imagine a denial of symptoms from a professional when you're going through something so hard. And I can tell you, until very recent times, meaning Five years and still today there are many medical professionals and mental health professionals that actually do that. Can you imagine that being told it's not a thing when you're twelve and Victoria you have this going on? Absolutely terrible. Victoria (29:45) It's also terrifying when you're like in your forties or fifties and you're telling your therapist that or even sometimes younger that you're having other symptoms and they're telling you, you know, it's not menopause. It's not you Chris (29:59) Right. Victoria (30:00) know, and they're like, you know, you go to your doctor and they're like, well, let's Chris (30:07) it's too early, sweetheart. It's it's here's a cream for your itchy skin. You're fine. That's what people are experiencing. And again, I started to show off because that lady literally just developed insight, Casey, that this is happening and got and sh it was almost like a cure. It was really wild. It blew my brain apart. Kasie (30:28) Yeah. And so I think, you know, when we talk about that in reference to the Lindsay Clancy trial, I think that what happens often is there's a complete misconstruation of how those worlds kind of intersect and collide, you know, like what that looks like. And and I think it is a scary landscape for a lot of people, especially those who are wanting to become pregnant, are pregnant, things like that, because this stuff Is real. I mean, it really happens. Now, granted, postpartum psychosis, which is what her defense and legal team are claiming that she should have been diagnosed with. She was never diagnosed with that, clinically speaking. She was diagnosed with postpartum depression. And so John (31:15) Personal. Kasie (31:16) I think that part of that issue is again the nomenclature of the situation. Yes, John. Chris (32:00) Yeah, but but also we run into the issue of compliance, medication compliance. We run into the issue of misdiagnosis. And I want to ask a question and make a statement at the same time to see if you guys know. I know mental health professionals cannot diagnose postpartum psychosis. It is not a thing. Meaning, I I I can't give you a code, I can't bill under it, it's not diagnosable. Can a medical professional diagnose it? I think not. What say you? I don't think they can. Victoria (32:37) I think Casey is looking it up right now. John (32:39) Therapists should never say their name away. I'm sorry. Kasie (32:40) Well, I I was looking at it for the AMA to see if the like the medical association. Chris (32:46) The American Medical Association because the APA, the American Psychological Association. Yeah, world world, yeah. Look look that up, John. I'm I'm curious because th both of those are are really important. I'm gonna come back to you and just tell you look, postpartum depression is not postpartum psychosis. There's you know, some quick things I want you to understand here. Baby blues is another kind of comment or phrase that we've talked about. Depression. I'm sorry? Yeah. It yeah, it it's it's so much that that goes into it. Depression has all the things, you know, that we have with repression hopelessness, helplessness, suicidal ideation, profound sadness, you know, guilt, anxiety, psychosis is that which we talked about either delusions, you believe something that isn't true and not likely true, and also you might have physical experiences, feeling things, tactile psychosis, auditory psychosis, that's hearing things. Lindsey Clancy evidently heard a command style voice, right? So You know, this whole postpartum world is a very messy world that the words literally that's why you saw on the trial, you know, the the people struggling with like do we understand this? Because in a lot of ways we just we just don't. yes, John. John (34:03) Okay. I think that he was also prescribed by multiple providers and that they did not coordinate their notes. like for example in the VA, they have access to Kasie (34:14) Mm-hmm. But but that has to happen within the first six weeks following delivery. And so it wouldn't be applicable to someone. Mm-hmm. Chris (34:15) That is what? John (34:25) all my my records and I think that's one thing that was not s he had different providers prescribed different medications and so she was on medications Kasie (34:31) The pu the pure the the the pure oparium is the first six weeks following del delivery. Chris (34:31) Can you say that again, Casey? What was it called? John (34:38) that Chris (34:38) yeah, yeah. John (34:38) would be more used for perhaps for even mood stabilization. And and she was having difficulty Chris (34:40) But I don't think that is a diagnosis that differentiates between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis and postpartum anxieties. Is it? John (34:51) being stabilized. Yes, sir. Kasie (34:59) Yeah, so right, that's what that's what I was looking at too, John, is the puriparal psychosis. It's it's it is a psychiatric emergency that's characterized by the on the acute onset of psychotic symptoms during the puriparium, which is defined as the first six weeks following delivery. So I and and I think again, like going back to what I was saying earlier, that a a lot of this comes down to semantics and nomenclature, right? But the big distinction here that I want Our audience to really understand is that we have to differentiate between postpartum depression John (35:31) Mm-hmm. I mean, does it have an I C D code? Kasie (35:36) and postpartum psychosis, right? Because John (35:37) Does it have an I T D card? Kasie (35:39) postpartum depression is not going to include a lot of the psychotic features of psychosis, like the command hallucinations and things John (35:44) A D S the D S five does the I C D code have it, the international code. Kasie (35:51) like that. So these are two completely and separated incidents. You know, so and the more severe postpartum partum depression is, does not mean that you're going to flip over and then have postpartum psychosis. You know, part postpartum depression is in of itself a complete John (36:11) It's comic strip. Kasie (36:13) entity, right? John (36:14) It's a comic strip. Kasie (36:16) Go ahead. Yeah, I I would say that there are two distinctive, like there's two distinct defining features by that. And I think that you can have major depressive disorder as a result, right? Like a prolonged period of time following the birth of children outside the normal limits of what postpartum typically looks like and functions as by definition. Then yeah, I think that you could develop major depressive disorder and that it's not episodic and it's not necessarily unique to having a baby. It could be unique to the uncomfortable. recovery of hormonal loss and things like that. John (37:06) Yeah, it's pure pure peril psychosis, P-U-E-R, P-E-R-A psychosis, F fifty three one I C D ten. Kasie (37:08) But I I don't think that it's going to develop into psychosis. I think if a person has a prodromal mental health related ease illness that is a severe and persistent mental illness, like a previous bipolar disorder diagnosis with mania, a previously diagnosed schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia, you know, things like this, then the likelihood John (37:29) Well, I didn't see that there. let me see if it's if it's first six weeks. Kasie (37:35) of the development of a postpartum psychosis is a What's interesting? go ahead. John (37:39) I I'm wondering, do you see that? No, it's psychosis. I'm gonna correct on that. Yes, it's psychosis, it's not depression. Okay. I'll I'll look for that as well. So Victoria (38:21) Okay. John (38:26) Six weeks, you know. Chris (38:33) Yeah. This is a very rare event, but it's also, as you point out, John, very real. It happens. This is this is this is not something that is innocuous and just doesn't occur. And you've got really layered, I mean, you already I think you already hear in Casey, John, I and Victoria really like layering this out. This is not something that is commonly dealt with on this level or even understood. I'm just gonna pose a a a question. I don't want us to answer it because I don't know that we can, but You know, depression typically operates with serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain. These are neurotransmitter systems. They're not even hormones really. You know, so so there's a lot of bleed over, there's a lot of lending into like the body's systems. And, you know, you can have a perfectly functioning endocrine system with all your hormones and still have mental health conditions such as these things we're talking about, bipolar, John (39:23) Yeah. Chris (39:24) major depressive disorder. And and and the Kasie (39:26) Well I think Chris (39:27) opposite is true too. Kasie (39:29) Well, I I do think that one important distinction to point out is that if you have depressive disorders, if you have anxiety, if you have conditions like that, you're still intact with your reality orientation. And that is one of the biggest sticking points is that if you are experiencing psychosis, you are detached from John (39:30) Would you agree I'm sorry would you agree then that you could end up in a major this could move into a major depressive disorder and it could be severe. Is that what I'm hearing from you and not go into psychosis? Is that what you're saying? Kasie (39:54) a reality orientation. Masking is a real thing where you can mask and present. and, you know, do the dog and pony show and still be psychotic. But the Chris (40:04) That that means you're not really you, right? Kasie (40:06) You're not really you. There's depersonalization and derealization that's happening. And so I think that there are telltale signs and telltale elements of psychosis that need to be noted here. Because, you know, yes, when you are in a depressive episode, or yes, when you are acutely anxious, or yes, like a lot of these things can cause a lot of major life disruption. But if you are still intact to reality orientation, meaning like you are aware of person, place, thing, right, wrong, you know, things like that, concrete operational things that are a part of your daily life, then you are not psychotic. Chris (40:48) So here's where it gets interesting. Mental illness versus criminal responsibility for murder. Whether you're diagnosed and what you're doing with your treatment, whatever, doesn't necessarily answer the legal question. You know, someone can be mentally ill and at the same time criminally responsible, but or mentally ill and not criminally responsible. That's there's a lot there. John (41:09) Okay, I I'm sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say that it's if somebody has let's say Kasie (41:09) Mm-hmm. Victoria (41:11) Mm-hmm. John (41:19) postpartum psychosis, it's higher with people that have inner percentage. It's only one or two percent. That is a lot of people, if you think of our our our population in the United States of females. Chris (41:18) I understand it that the Massachusetts Standard asks whether because of mental disease or defect a defendant lacks substantial capacity either to appreciate as Casey was just saying, intact thoughtful process on right and wrong and conduct and you know, the requirements of the law or there. So w once the lack of criminal responsibility was raised in this case, prosecutors had to prove that. John was talking about that earlier. John (41:36) It's also but if you have a bipolar depress Chris (41:44) That the criminal responsibility beyond a reasonable doubt, twelve human beings listening to all the details of this case that we can't possibly get to, are going to make a decision here about the criminal responsibility. So the question that we can have clinically is does evidence of planning, for instance, she planned this, she intended this, or she was psychotic John (41:44) bipolar condition, then you c it goes up to fifteen percent of the of the folks. Of those that have that only, it's maybe one percent of people that have postpartum psychosis kill their children. Chris (42:06) and didn't know herself because she was depersonalized, does evidence of planning prove the absence of psychosis? Boy, that's tricky. Victoria (42:14) yeah. Kasie (42:17) It it doesn't prove the absence of psychosis in its own state, not to get into the semantics and legalities of the case. Like it it wouldn't necessarily prove that. I think that there in this particular case are other pieces of evidence that would be contrary to just deciding whether or not it it's determined to be psychosis or not. go ahead, John. Chris (42:55) yes. Kasie (43:00) Yeah, so that that is Chris (43:02) She was probably searching, John, trying to search and understand what's going on with me. Sorry, Casey. Kasie (43:06) Well, it's not only that. So there was Apple Watch data that showed how many times she went up and down the flights of stairs of her house in the decision making process. She also tracked the specific She also tracked the exact distance and timing of like if she sent her husband on errands, like how long he would be gone and for what amount of time she tracked the distance and timing of that. And then there was a phone call, and that was one of the more interesting pieces of evidence that she was completely lucid on a phone call with her husband, and he called, I think it was at like five. thirty-three and apparently the incident took place around five thirty five between five thirty three and five thirty-eight. So minutes before Chris (43:51) Yeah, minutes before she was very lucid. Kasie (43:54) she had a lucid conversation with her husband. And so those were some sticking points. Chris (43:57) But as you said, there's masking I'm sorry, but as you said too, you know, there's masking. There's there's you can appear very I mean, listen, a full blown psychotic person can appear very, very fine going to buy a frozen pizza at the grocery store. Okay? You wouldn't know they were psychotic. Understand that, right? Kasie (44:17) Yeah, you wouldn't know. I think that for me personally, like on a personal level, not on a legal level, I think when we're talking about you know when we're talking about cases like this, we want to be really careful to attribute the meticulous sequential actions of a person to being psychotic or not psychotic. And that's why I said earlier about how this is gonna set such a precedent, because we don't want people to come away from the Conversation to think that at any point in time you can immediately become psychotic. That's not how psychosis works. You know, you you don't just have an eighteen minute period of psychosis. So either she has had psychosis for an extremely long period of time and there's been a lot of masking and there's been a lot of, you know, provider hopping and you know, kind of separating the pieces and trying to organize and disorganize. There's also several journal entries that would suggest she was struggling a lot mental health wise. But there were also affirmations in those journals about what a good mom she thought she was. So there's a lot of different pieces to take into account here. The truth of the situation, and the most convicting part of this, is that there are literally one person on the face of this planet that knows if she was truly psychotic or not, right? So you got the Lord and you got Lindsay Clancy. And the rest of us are just spectators, right? The rest of us are just observers. and trying to piece together what could or could not be the the pieces of this that may make the difference in that. I do think it's interesting that her defense team did not have to come with a lot of heavy hitting like evidence that it was the prosecution that had to come with the evidence to try to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was clinically responsible and that she mean criminally responsible and that she was in touch with reality because how do you prove that? How do you disprove it and how do you Victoria (46:26) Right. Kasie (46:27) prove it? Chris (46:34) Don't understand that at all. Honestly. Kasie (46:34) Yeah. And it's everywhere. John (46:36) Okay. Victoria (46:37) Yeah, I don't I don't get that either. John (46:40) Does she do did I understand she Googled a lot like our Chris (46:45) And white. John (46:46) intrepid leader does here in the in Metrolina Googles, but she her search engines were showed a lot of of of activity that way. Kasie (46:47) Yeah. So Chris (46:48) And what that references is, if you're listening to this somewhere around the world, you know, we had experiences where, you know, some women were wearing y white and saying, you know, murder, murder or, you know, sentence or you know, convict her. and then there were people wearing white. This just took on a whole life of its own, or I'm pink rather, and you know, I I am Lindsay Clancy kind of statement, because people can have it can really identify with this. so there's this it's been a lightning rod. Kasie (47:15) Yeah. Here here are some issues that are already stemming even locally for us here in Newton, John (47:17) Her husband was at a store, right? Kasie (47:21) North Carolina. If you're listening from afar, it's a little small town. Chris (47:25) Ha ha. Kasie (47:26) We recently had in the news a high ranking official in the police department was charged with murdering a constituent because he used unreasonable force to kill the person who was unarmed at the time of the crime and is now making claims about being in a PTSD episode and having that be the foundation of the argument of not being Held to the fullest extent of the criminal law around what took place and what was very evident on his body cam footage. So I I think that this is the danger zone, right? This is the danger zone. We don't want women to think that Chris (48:07) It is very much the danger zone. I agree, Casey. Victoria (48:10) Mm. I agree. Kasie (48:11) if they become pregnant, they're gonna develop postpartum psychosis and kill their children. Chris (48:15) Right. Kasie (48:17) Yeah.1 to 0.2% of all births. Yeah. So Chris (48:18) Very specific. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very rare. And I'm glad that we're highlighting that a couple of times because one of the great fears that I've have and have heard from my clients is they're terrified to get pregnant. Human beings have been living pregnant for many, many millennia. You can become pregnant. It is not going to be unmanageable. More than likely you're fine. But it's scary. Yeah, John. Kasie (49:01) Yeah, I mean I John (49:05) Yeah. Kasie (49:07) Yeah, I I think that some of that comes with the underlayment of if there was kind of this pre-existent prodromal like religious occup like pre-occupation to begin with. But I also think that the delusions are really when we're not intact with reality, when we have no orientation to what is going on. We believe that there are, you know, divine principles telling us to kill our children. I mean, we remember the The lady from a few years ago that drowned her kids in the bathtub because she thought that they were possessed by Victoria (49:43) Mm-hmm. Kasie (49:44) Satan. Andrea Gates, they actually overturned her case. They actually overturned her conviction to to be like mental health focused in those moments. But but I think that Chris (49:59) Yeah, and generally. Kasie (50:02) Mm-hmm. Chris (50:03) Yeah, and and generally what's gonna happen with Lindsay Clancy is she's gonna be in a forensic psychological institution, probably for the rest of her life, and very rare will you be able to re get regain release pr after an event like this and stuff. So it's like there's so much there. But let me let me let me forward us along because I'm aware we can go for a while. Here's a tough one. I want us to struggle with this a little bit, right? If you believe that Lindsay Clancy was severely mentally ill, I that's probably not really that much of a debate, right? You know, what would you really need to know to decide whether she should still be held criminally responsible for killing these children? This is a tough question, but I can't imagine being on the jury. This is what they were dealing with. John (50:49) How do how do we know Victoria (50:49) Mm-hmm. John (50:50) that the jury wasn't influenced? I I think they were not sequestered. And and and they s went by the field of of protesters wearing pink that and white, yeah. Thank you. Chris (51:35) Yeah, we even use Victoria (51:35) Mm-hmm. Chris (51:36) weird terms, John. I mean, you know, insane. We don't say that anymore. It's not a thing, but yet it's still innocent by reason of insanity. We know. Yeah. And but but but the other thing too, that's a dangerous precedent is we can't have people kind of going out and killing their neighbor and saying, well, you know what, I was just mentally ill and then, you know, Google what to say and how to say it and how to appear what you appear like 'cause like you said, Casey, only God and she really knows. I mean, you know, I think that we can have some forensic psychology involved. I mean we have a a a a BS meter to tell and and and interview people. I mean we diagnose this stuff for a reason, but we don't need I mean you can't go commit murder and kill your wife and say, well I was just insane. And that's some of what the public is experiencing, right? They're like, you just killed three Kasie (52:19) Yeah, the the other Chris (52:21) people. Kasie (52:23) children. Yeah. the the other thing I think here, clinically speaking, is that, you know, I She openly admitted that she did it. Like, I don't think she's in denial of the fact that she killed her children. but it's almost like we got pushed into two different schools of thought that she was either this cold calculating monster or that she completely lost all rationality and has postpartum psychosis. John (52:47) Very minute population percentage. Kasie (52:51) But as a mental health provider, I really look at the evidence and see this like critical third area, right? She was profoundly and severely mental. Ill, but being profoundly and severely mentally ill does not automatically mean that you have completely lost touch with reality. You really do have to separate extreme psychological suffering from what is considered a complete and total psychotic break. And for me, the breaking point here, so to speak, is the timing of it, right? John (53:19) Question, Casey, do you do you can you differentiate between postpartum psychosis and a subset perhaps Victoria (53:20) Yeah. John (53:29) of the psycho delusions where they think that their baby is evil or that the b e the baby must die or the with without the voices. It's like a strongly held delusional belief. Kasie (53:29) the timing of it, the chronicity of it, the prolonged effects from it, and how often she was participating in regular acts of her life without prompting, without, you know, being under the power of suggestion and things like that. Now she had severe and profound mental illness. She did all the things like seeking out help, going to the hospital as needed. Her husband stayed with her throughout that entire process. Her e her even her own attorney gave testimony to what he did to try to get her the help that she needed. You know? I also have to think about too that. If she was so severely psychotic and presented as so severely psychotic, this would be an issue for me. Then why would another reasonable adult leave their children, including an infant, in the soul-provided care of someone that is clearly demonstrating psychotic behavior? John (54:24) Andrew Yates. Andrew Yates. Yeah. Yates. Yates. huh. Pardon? Kasie (54:36) There's there's shared burden, but I think it goes back to the argument. Like, was there criticity to the psychotic John (54:43) One is in Texas. Kasie (54:44) episodes that she's Right. So like was there clinicity up until the day of the event that would have suggested that she was not a safe person to leave children with? And if that's the case, then why is the husband leaving children with her? You know? Go ahead. Chris (55:04) I gotta push back at that one though, right? Because Casey, it what you what we're what we're asking this gentleman to do is to formally and professionally assess the functioning of his wife. You know, you might be a little on edge, baby's one month old, and you're like, okay, I don't know. You alright? Can I go to the store and get formula or should I stay here? Should I call my mom? I mean, this family John (55:27) There's organized thought. Chris (55:29) had those decisions. It's virtually an impossible decision. John (55:31) The the problem I think is organized Chris (55:34) predict this. And so we're we're talking about, you know, almost a year in, I thought it was 18 months in, where this this couple has been managing this and there's been little increases in trust. And are you being honest with me? And discussions about do I think she, you know, the family actually ask her, you know, dar do you feel safe with the kids? I think at one point she was like, yeah, I'm not sure that I am. But so it's there's a lot of gray here, Casey. It's it's hard John (55:34) thought. That she was able to she had the intention, she Googled it, she did all sorts of things, she did a Apple Watch and all of that. So I'm you know, that that kind of gives more of an idea what I would perhaps think of as having serious mental illness and postpartum depression to the extreme condition. not depression but psychosis, but Chris (56:01) to John (56:01) On the other hand, there was the ability to organize and plan. That doesn't but that may not be true. I'm not a lawyer. Chris (56:02) You know, when do you make the decision to say, Hey honey, you're my wife and I will not allow you to be alone with our children? That might not go so well. John (56:12) And certainly the the the we we our legal definitions are horrible. They are they're they're stuck in the nineteenth century. Yeah. You don't do that. Victoria (56:35) We have Chris (56:50) Yeah, that would me that would confound the issues for sure. Victoria, let me just tune into your head, girl. Where where are you at at this point? It's a lot, isn't it? Victoria (56:57) that yeah I feel it is and it and it's interesting as someone I'm sure Casey probably feels this way too as someone who's like actually been pregnant and like had a child John (57:12) Yeah. Victoria (57:13) and like Casey has two so she's one one up me with that with that but like it's very interesting to and think about it in that way and think about like yourself like I guess I don't know I'm like imagining myself in a lot of these like situations and like you know thinking it makes me a little bit more reflective on like my time in postpartum and like how things could have been very different for me just like I mean like you know I could have potentially been in her shoes you know like it could have been me and then like You know, that's a I don't even know the right word just to describe the feeling that that causes. Yeah. Chris (58:03) Well, there's the fear. You know, there's the fear. Victoria (58:06) But I also Kasie (58:06) Okay. Victoria (58:07) am agreeing with like Casey in the fact that like, John (58:10) Mm-hmm. Victoria (58:11) you know, there are I don't know, I don't like mental health is and psychosis is like, you know, that is that not having a grip on reality. And like whereas, you know, you have your like neurosis side of mental health, which is where you s like still have the grip on reality, but you might struggle with like, you know, the little depression or like anxiety or whatever, but you can still like maintain that like connection to reality. And it's just I don't know, I'm more in these situations I feel like I'm more of an observer. Like I just like hearing everyone's like viewpoints on it and like things rather than like Chris (58:55) Yeah. For sure. Victoria (58:59) me saying what I mean. But I don't necessarily Chris (59:02) Well, you I think the listening public is that way as well, Victoria. I mean it's kinda like, you know, what do these therapists think should happen, right? And I don't know that, you know, we're gonna say I think she's guilty and she needs, you know, punished, but 'cause it's you know, the jury had a hard time saying it. We really wanna have information out there. Yeah, John. Kasie (59:27) Statistically. Yeah. Chris (59:30) Oops. Kasie (59:33) Yeah. Chris (59:35) yeah. yeah. John (59:38) So there might be shared burden, perhaps. Yeah. Chris (59:47) Crazy, but it's true. You know? We kill people. People do murder. John (59:50) You mean timing. Timing. Is what you're saying? You're meaning Kasie (59:54) There we John (59:55) timing, right? Kasie (59:55) So this is what I want to say because I I don't think it was on her husband to make clinical judgments about the state of his wife. What I am saying is that if you followed the trial, which I did implicitly, if you followed the trial, what you realized her defense was trying to say is that that she experienced in that 18 minutes a sudden brief window of command hallucinations, right exactly at the times the crimes occurred. What we do know to be true about postpartum psychosis is that typically speaking, it does not switch on and off like an like a light bulb. You know, to where conveniently in this 18-minute window that was bookend, by the way, by phone calls to her husband. You know, psychosis is typically a lingering cognitive effect. If she's so detached from reality that she couldn't tell right from wrong, then that kind of profound sense of disorganization would show up over and over and over again, to the point to where her husband would not make the decision to to leave his children with her, because it would show up clinically over and over and over again. Chris (1:01:12) So you're feeling like she wasn't psychotic, is that part of what you're saying? Kasie (1:01:16) I don't think that she was in postpartum psychosis. I think she was severely mentally ill. I think she had clinical postpartum depression. It's a classic case. It is a tragic travesty of things that happened. John (1:01:23) I'm gonna say I I'm also gonna say compare that to Andrea Yates' husband, who I was in Texas when all this came down, and I was in school during that time for my doctorate, and it was a a lot of conversation and one of the things that we were struck by is is students. Kasie (1:01:43) Right. So that when yep. So at the first point, right? Like I think she's guilty but mentally ill. Chris (1:01:50) Yeah. Yeah, and there's people that would say back, Casey, that where you know, where is the criminal intent? You know, first degree murder is a hell of a thing. You've got to plan it, intend it, and execute it. And I think there's a lot of gray area that goes into, you know, what it is that you're you're you're feeling in those John (1:01:51) was that the the father had virtually virtually no involvement and was very neglectful and he was treating her like she was basically a re a reproduction machine, basically. Chris (1:02:08) those moments. I agree that, you know, you don't just get psychotic for, John (1:02:12) Yeah. Chris (1:02:12) you know, a day and and and that doesn't happen again. But I do think that you come in and out of lucidity. You know, that's why there's such torment for people Kasie (1:02:22) Yeah. Chris (1:02:22) that John Aspa as men as well have, you know, murdered their whole family. That has happened and y yeah, there's there's a there's a case of a dude drove his whole family through a dag store window a few years ago. I mean these things Kasie (1:02:37) Yeah. Or the guy that married the girl from Belmont and put his wife and two children in silos near their house out in Colorado. Chris (1:02:44) Yeah, I mean it's and it's it's heinous things that that that do occur that that you know the the big thing is is the precedent going back to that. Do you do you punish somebody that has mental health or do you let them off? And there's probably somewhere in the middle. Like I Lancy Lindsay Clancy's gonna be in forensic psycho psychological facility for a while. She ain't psych. She's Kasie (1:03:07) So so Chris (1:03:10) she'll be in a facility, okay, for a while. And and because we don't just let people go. Yeah. I mean that's Kasie (1:03:18) Good. Chris (1:03:19) that's a reason a very reasonable outcome. I mean it's it's unreasonable when people are fearful, like, there's using an excuse and let her out in six months and she gets delivered her life. That that's that's not that's not what we're talking about either. Kasie (1:03:32) But I think for me as a woman, one of the precedents that come from this that is truly terrifying for me is that if this moves forward and it's never retried again, or if it does go in the way of not guilting by reason of insanity and they pin it all on postpartum psychosis, is that women in positions of power, leadership at all. If they become pregnant, have children, have some type of postpartum, although there are all these laws of protection to say, like, we don't discriminate on the basis of this, that, now we have documented evidence that these things are real and they really happen and all this stuff. So there's I think we're going backwards in a way. Chris (1:04:24) Certainly a fear. Kasie (1:04:31) Agree. Chris (1:04:31) Yeah. Yeah, that's that's why, you know, when we were talking about COVID, Victoria (1:04:34) I agree. Chris (1:04:35) I I I said ad nauseum, you know, we're we we don't need to be operating out of fear here, y'all. Let's let's be prudent, let's be aware, and let's deal with our fear. And you know what it plays out with this kind John (1:04:44) Okay. Chris (1:04:45) of as well. Let's be prudent, meaning let's be thoughtful, let's get information, let's be aware, understand what's going on with your body. Learn. And and and let's not be fearful. I mean John (1:04:53) Yeah. One more thing. Men have a sadistically higher, I said sadistically, Chris (1:04:58) Why would you n change the life of your course and your family and not have kids 'cause you're afraid this may happen to you? That that doesn't seem to hold a lot of water. So treating women with respect and understanding, you know, hey, thankfully I'm a I'm a dude and I don't have to do the monthly thing and and deal with all those emotions in the way that happens. But you learn how John (1:04:58) statistically higher incident of infanticide or family annihilation, much more so than women. So only a minority of men would have that commit infanticides or family annihilation have a a diagnosable mental illness. Victoria (1:05:19) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:05:19) to deal with it. We deal with other things. You know, humans are just look, this is the human emotional experience and we're all really trying to figure it out together. John (1:05:23) Yeah. I mean we kill people. Men kill people. Yeah. Chris (1:05:32) Okay, who's that? yeah. Yeah, John. It w they were ended. They were they were ended. You know, it it's it is tragic. It's utterly Victoria (1:05:50) You soon. Chris (1:05:52) tragic. Yeah, it's just i you know, it's hard to think about, John. I mean it's it's hard to Kasie (1:06:15) Yeah. So tragic. John (1:06:16) And the way. Chris (1:06:18) to to really allow that into our heart and and to really ponder. Victoria (1:06:18) Yeah. Well that's a that's a lot of weight on your shoulder. Chris (1:06:23) Yeah, it is Victoria. You know. and No, go ahead. Victoria (1:06:26) Yeah. Well, I mean as parent I mean sorry, go ahead. I mean as moms, pick Casey, you probably agree. Like we na usually, I won't say in every household, but a lot of times like we carry a lot of weight. Like we have to make a crap ton of decisions every day as moms and as wives or as partners or as whatever. And like it's constant. You know, like I'm constantly think literally constantly thinking about like, you know, what size is my kid? Does he have enough cloth? It's about about to be fall. Kasie (1:07:05) Mm-hmm. Victoria (1:07:05) Does he have enough long sleeve clothes? Do we need to buy more long sleeve clothes? Do the ones from last year fit? Like, like those types of things always go what are we gonna eat for dinner tonight? Okay, my husband's gonna be home late because he's out with friends. Like, what am I doing? What I have the podcast. So then what is like, you know, how is little man being taken care of when I'm doing this? Like it John (1:07:13) Okay, we didn didn't let I guess we need to sort of understand you think that maybe she was criminally accountable, Victoria (1:07:24) is John (1:07:24) but at the same time severely mentally ill. Is that what I'm hearing from you? Victoria (1:07:25) 247. And so then to also add the weight of like, you know, what if I have mental health struggles John (1:07:35) Mm-hmm. Victoria (1:07:35) on that? It can be a lot. But like that's why, like, you know, when families that are lucky enough to, you know, have the two parent household, like it's can be a shared responsibility and it can be a team effort. We are one plus one equals eleven here. Okay, we are a whole number working together as a team, but as two individuals, like and it is not all on the woman's or mother's responsibility to like maintain all these things and take also take care of herself and everyone else in the household. John (1:08:15) Hercules murdered his family. Chris (1:08:17) Yeah. John (1:08:18) So Victoria (1:08:21) Right. Mm-hmm. Chris (1:08:34) Yeah, you know, we need to we need to taxi in for a landing. Neil popped up onto the screen. usually we do a little bit of a practical question to you. We also do a shrink wrap up and this is just too much of an issue to discuss that I didn't want to sacrifice any of those seconds or minutes for those segments and trying to finish up our conversation. So I think what we need to do is just make a a a summary John (1:08:58) Psycho Yeah. Chris (1:09:00) statement. maybe everybody gets a minute. Neil, did you have anything you wanted to add or say? John (1:09:05) Yeah. I think for life would be app appropriate, but that's Neil (1:09:07) I don't have enough time. This was a you know it's a crazy Victoria (1:09:10) Ha ha ha. Neil (1:09:11) case and there's a lot of stuff that's been going on in my brain about this whole situation. I just don't not enough time. Chris (1:09:18) Yeah, and maybe we could talk about it again. You know, we'll ha maybe we'll have a retrial. I don't think this is an issue that we need to be done with at all because it is such an important issue. I'll I'll Kasie (1:09:28) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:09:28) give the panel a minute to sac sum up and and I'll start by just saying, I mean, my my biggest thing is fear. I I don't I don't want us to be fearful about this. I I know I'm a dude saying that, but hopefully we sprinkled in that this is manageable through Simply being aware of what's going on with you and talking honestly with people that are loved ones, that alone oftentimes is going to really clear the air. You know, but it's such a taboo topic and fearful about menopause and I'm weak and postpartum or any of that. It's like go be pregnant, go live life, go be aware of what's happening with your body, but it you know, I don't want fear to predominate people's thoughts. Casey John Vicky story. John (1:10:18) I I I I agree with you because I think it's going to put women in a in a a less secure place and take away their rights. You know, we're not thinking of one we left one group of people that were left Chris (1:11:35) I'm with you, John. Victoria. John (1:11:36) out. The children who Victoria (1:11:38) Is this my friend Grappa? John (1:11:40) were murdered. Chris (1:11:40) it's it's a minute of summary. Yeah, what's your thoughts? John (1:11:43) Their lives, the all the potential. That somebody has to be held accountable for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were ended. Victoria (1:11:48) Sorry, I'm getting kitty cuddles over here. So I mean, yeah. Yeah, Chris (1:11:53) Just a minute of summary. Victoria (1:11:55) mainly just I just don't want this to be a deterrent for people to start families or seek out mental health services and resources. And that I think that this is also a key proponent in why we should John (1:11:58) Yeah. And and I think both of you mothers, I I you know, I I y what would you think if your child was taken from you in life and all that potential? You know, they couldn't live life, they couldn't make mistakes, they couldn't grow up in love and find someone and Victoria (1:12:17) Stay up to date on current events and things going on in the world because they potentially will have the impact on either ourselves or our future children and grandchildren and so on and so forth. Chris (1:12:31) And Miss Casey, who has now self admittedly been tracking this thing. I didn't know that this whole time, so Kasie (1:12:39) Yeah. So you know I also Chris (1:12:40) I would have loved to have been an expert witness, man. This case I would I really would have loved to have been an expert witness. Go ahead, Kate. Kasie (1:12:45) So I also set for the LSAT and was going to go to law school. Like I was already dead set on going to law school. Yeah. Chris (1:12:51) I forgot that! Kasie (1:12:54) So things Victoria (1:12:53) Yeah, I forget that. Kasie (1:12:55) like this really like get after me. but look at me now, living the dream. Chris (1:13:01) So Casey, take us out. Kasie (1:13:03) Yeah. So I I just want to be abundantly clear that really having a clinical perspective about this, whether it's for, against, or otherwise, is really not to diminish or deter or to lessen the fact that Lindsay Clancy is a person that was experiencing significant pain in her life. I I do want to say that, but it also does not excuse the tragedy that occurred. It simply, for me as a clinician, really demands a lot more input and oversight of diagnostic accuracy. Because if we as if we in this clinical space take every tragic outcome of every type of paternal, maternal burnout, major depression, and all this, and we reduce it down to calling everything psycho. Then we're really gonna do a big disservice to maternal mental health. And to me, that's the scariest part of this. We we can really acknowledge and come together and say this is excruciating agony that she was in, and she was having severe depression, and there might have been some medication mismanagement, and we can all recognize that. But if we deter this to be the precedent to say that every time something extreme happens in a situation like this that we're gonna call it psychosis, then I think it's gonna deter people from getting the help that they really need when they need it. They're gonna be afraid. There's gonna be stigma. We have come so far in this industry to really perpetuate, to get rid of the stereotypes, to work beyond the diagnosis that labels and titles are free. John (1:14:38) certainly very tough to be a a single parent and whether the person is whether you have a scoff law for a Kasie (1:14:44) Was she suffering? Absolutely. Did those children suffer tragically and absolutely? John (1:14:50) a partner, former partner not taking care of and providing child support for the child. Chris (1:14:53) is just not a good way to to wrap up this conversation other than what our attempts just there were. It is a very serious conversation. I'm I'm just really glad that we can talk about it. This is what we do here. You know, real therapists talking about really what helps and trying to make sense of it. I don't say it just as a line. Please share this show with somebody. This dialogue needs to continue happening because we need better maternal and and and medical care for for people. that are going through women's health issues when this is happening. We gotta do better and not just Kasie (1:15:28) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:15:28) in the states but around the world. We have to do better to be there when women are struggling in these states. And in a lot of ways the whole system failed this circumstance. And and and men are failed as well in some in some ways, but there's but there is also very much personal responsibility. You you're responsible for your actions. is those are decisions that are made. So share this with a friend. Take care of yourself. don't know any great way to take us out here other than saying, listen, we're here, let's figure it out together. Stay well. Support each other. Don't be alone with these feelings. And John, one last thought. All right. Be well, stay well. Listen, Kasie (1:16:25) Be well. Chris (1:16:27) we're gonna talk next week about another big current event, immigration. I think John was your idea. We're gonna we're gonna have another big one, Casey. You wanna come back, don't ya? Kasie (1:16:37) I've got cheerleading, thank God. Chris (1:16:40) She says, Victoria (1:16:40) Yeah. Chris (1:16:41) yeah. Wait, we need your legal expertise. John (1:16:48) You know, it's w one of the things and I can't I can't speak for women, I can only speak I grew up in a wonderfully Chris (1:16:54) all right. Take care, be well. We'll see you next week, guys. Bye. Victoria (1:16:59) I John (1:16:59) a very female strong family. it was both male and female together raising children. And I I I think the generation because I'm an old fart, I'm a a you can say hello boomer to me, is that people are scared, are scared of women are scared of having children. They're scared because they go on social media and they scroll and they do them scroll and said this is gonna happen. I want to say again that postpartum psychosis is very rare. It's only one to two percent of women develop it. And even those that have bipolar history, it's it's significant, but it's only fifteen to twenty percent. Have have a family, have a child, raise that child, raise it together. Know that you're not alone in this and that there are people that will support you. Yeah, I didn't sh no, we're not doing strength wrap up. I hate that. So Yeah. She's doing a great job. She should be a forensic psychologist, I think. Yes, he could have been. Law and order. I think it's too serious to you know. I think it's too serious. Can can we one last thought is to be sure to seek help if you have any feelings of harming yourself or other people, nine eight eight or go to your nearest emergency room. Seek help. That's right. Immigration man. Okay. Well, I'm gonna be the subject subject matter expert on it. So I yeah, I'm not I don't fall on it like a lot of people might think I would. So anyway. But like to talk