In Episode 372 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we take an unvarnished look at the psychological toll of deportation anxiety in an era of surging interior ICE enforcement. When the threat of detention is a grounded reality rather than an irrational catastrophization, traditional advice like “stop worrying” falls completely flat. Bridging hard policy data with clinical wisdom, this episode explores how chronic hypervigilance reshapes daily life—from children carrying hidden attachment fears to families shrinking their worlds to stay safe. Join our panel of therapists as we unpack the delicate balance between realistic preparation and emotional regulation, offering practical insight on how to navigate high-stakes uncertainty, distinguish risk management from life-altering avoidance, and continue living when the fear is very real.
Tune in to see Deportation Anxiety Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How do you manage anxiety when the thing you’re afraid of could actually happen?
- What happens to a family when children begin worrying that a parent might not come home?
- Where is the line between reasonable preparation and living your life in hypervigilance?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/personalstories
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Deportation Data Project — Understanding the Summer 2026 Surge in ICE Arrests
PNAS — Recent Immigration Raids Increased Student Absences
New England Journal of Medicine — Effects of Pervasive Immigration Enforcement on Children’s Health
1.1 | Fears are usually irrational.
This is PERFECT because you get to challenge your own sentence.
Usually.
What happens when fear isn’t irrational?
That’s a hell of a book discussion.
1.14 | How do we handle stress?
Chronic uncertainty creates a fundamentally different challenge from responding to a single stressful event.
1.27 | We experience most what we focus on the most.
Very relevant to hypervigilance—but with an important caveat: telling someone experiencing a legitimate external threat simply to stop focusing on it would be invalidating.
1.28 | Taking things in small pieces and having small goals makes big things easy.
This becomes practical: What needs to happen today? versus mentally rehearsing every possible future catastrophe.
1.32 | We choose what to focus on.
Again, agency without pretending the external threat isn’t real.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #372 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, wherever this show may find you. You have found through a therapist eyes on September the seventeenth. This is Thursday evening when we record live from about 6 15 to 6 30. We fire up the cannons on YouTube live. So go check that out. this is a show where you get mental health and substance abuse insights. We try to blow up stereotypes and myths. And disseminate good information, but knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way, we are excited to continue what seems to have popped out to be the current event month topic. what was the first one, guys? I I forget. We have Miss Victoria Pendergrass with us tonight. Victoria (00:47) Hi, I'm here. Hi, hi all. Hi y'all. Chris (00:50) And we have Mr. John Pope, sir. How are you? John (00:52) Hey, how you doing? Good to Chris (00:54) What was the first topic? We talked about Lindsay Clancy. We talked about another one. Yeah, John (00:57) That was last week. Yeah. Victoria (00:58) Yeah. Chris (01:00) what was the one before? We're all blanking? John (01:03) Can you put a spot on Victoria (01:04) Nothing. John (01:05) playing? Victoria (01:07) I wasn't there for that then. That was the week of that was the week of my John (01:08) I was traumatized. I was traumatized. Chris (01:09) You Victoria (01:11) birthday. I didn't think we met that week. Y'all did something but y'all did something else. Y'all did like Chris (01:13) Yeah, we all win. We all John (01:13) Yeah, we can. Victoria (01:17) a y'all ha you interviewed someone, I think. Chris (01:20) of course. That's right. It was my God, my I'm getting older, John, and these senior moments I'm told get worse. Who did we interview? I met John (01:28) Well, I'm I'm twenty years older than you, man, so I Chris (01:31) John, you and I you and I interviewed him. John (01:33) Yeah, I know. I know. Hey, wasn't he the friend that the that was at the wedding or something like that? Chris (01:41) Yeah, Davidson, but I I don't I don't think that was it. I I you know what? I I Neil save us. Put it in the notes. John (01:47) You know. Chris (01:48) John and Victoria, find out what the heck the show was so I can move on. This is thr Victoria (01:52) Heck if I know. Chris (01:53) we ask you three concept concepts questions, reflection questions as we go through because this is episode three seventy two. Who's afraid of ice? Deportation, John (02:03) my goodness. Chris (02:05) anxiety, and the mental health impact of immigration. Right? So the Three reflective questions we want you to think about is how do you manage anxiety when the thing you're afraid of could actually happen? It's a poignant question. Two, what happens to a family when children begin worrying about that parent might not even come home? And then three, where is the line between responsible preparation and living your life in hypervigilance? And that's a word that we'll we'll talk about today, what hypervigilance means, but Let me see. Click subscribe do your part. John wants five stars, not four stars, not three stars, not two stars, not one. Has to be John. John (02:46) And it has to be five stars because it goes to the top once you do that. The algorithm it does its magic. And Chris (02:54) So please, we do our part to provide you information, hopefully a little bit of entertainment. I think Victoria might get you to smile from time to time. Your part is to find a friend to give us a YouTube subscription. It's important. It helps us. It helps us a lot. We are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. Contact it through a therapistsize.com is a great way to get into us with as well. this is the human emotional experience which we do endeavor to figure out together. And this is, you know, kind of a a wild show. I mean, John, this was your idea. What tell tell me what your brain child is here. What what what do you think about that? John (03:37) Well it's it's the scope of deportation anxiety in Latino communities. And you can go Latina, Latino, Latinx communities. And what happens is is that it's not just let's say people from south of the border, let's say people that are in Mexico or Central America, it is all people from all have Hispanic surnames that are that are experiencing this trauma and fear. And it's the idea that ICE, immigration and what is it? ICE stands for. yeah. Chris (04:20) Good question. John (04:21) But anyway it's deportation. And so it's immigration and control and whatever. But having having said that They are there are a number of people that are very fearful of it. Now, the truth is that the great majority of people with Latino, Latinx, Hispanic surnames are legal, are legal migrants, and they are not illegal immigrants. And so there's a s a minority that are that way. However, it's affecting adversely whole populations of of of of people, even that that are third, fourth, fifth generation Americans that are are dealing with this. I'm thinking of people that were Victoria (05:17) Mm-hmm. John (05:18) born Chris (05:18) Third, fourth, fifth generation question mark? John (05:21) Yes, and even longer. There are Tejanos in Texas and there are people from New Mexico that are have been in the country f longer than the countries been around. And so there but they happen to have Gonzalez or Gomez or names of that sort that are Hispanic or Manheras. And so you get these are are Perez. You get them, they're very fearful. In fact, I had a client that is of of background that is Puerto Rican. Now she's as American as American pie as apple pie. She is a fourth generation American in Puerto Rico they are Americans, but she's afraid that she will be picked up off the street because her last name is Hispanic. Chris (06:23) Right. So let me Victoria (06:24) Yeah, I've dealt with some people having stresses and things too, so sorry, Chris, go ahead. Chris (06:28) Yeah, I'm definitely seeing it on my caseload. I I have a whole family that has quote unquote self-deported. They've taken themselves back to their hometown, and it is actually Mexico. But a couple things. First of all, ICE that stands for immigration and customs enforcement. Right? That's what we're doing. We're enforcing John (06:47) Yeah, it makes Chris (06:48) customs, we're enforcing immigration. And the show that we talked about was we're brain farting on is cannabis. Let's talk about weeds. John (06:57) Well that's because I don't bogart Chris (06:57) Cannabis myths busted and John (07:00) my joint, my friend. Chris (07:03) Yeah, well we we did. We we didn't even s know what show we talked about before the last one. Goodness. Victoria (07:09) Did we maybe partake in said thing while doing the interview? John (07:10) How we weren't even using but but it affected us. Chris (07:14) Okay, one person at a time. What? Victoria (07:17) I said, did we maybe partake in said substance while doing the interview? Chris (07:24) Maybe you think don't start any rumors. We don't need any hate mail. We don't need boards of contact, you know, contacting the social work Victoria (07:30) Just kidding, I'm kidding. Chris (07:31) board. Mr. Gazdick was weed high when he did the show. He couldn't even remember stuff. No, that's not the case. you know, we're gonna talk a little bit about this issue that John just laid out in a in a way that is from a therapist. The show says through a therapist's eyes, right? John (07:46) Mm-hmm. Chris (07:47) And so we need to kind of start out like John did, what's the landscape here? But we want to focus, I want to be clear, I don't mind getting political. I enjoyed political discussions and weird that way, but it's the cultural, familial, emotional realities that are behind this that I would venture to say the three of us, and I'll give on Casey an honorable mention. She's an every other week panel girl this next couple months. Shout out to you, Casey. She She would probably agree that we see this in our office, right, Victoria? I mean this is real. Yeah. Victoria (08:24) Hundred percent. Yeah. John (08:27) Hundred percent for me. Chris (08:29) Yeah. Not a hundred percent of our clientele, but a hundred percent clear. Victoria (08:33) Right. Yeah, no but John (08:34) Well i and I have a family involved. We have have family that are Brazilian which are is not Hispanic but they're considered population Hispanic and then also I have relatives that are Filipino and they have Hispanic surnames and they're worried about it too. Yeah even though they're Asian Pacific. Chris (09:02) Have US citizens worried about this as you said. So Victoria (09:06) Mm-hmm. Chris (09:07) let me go through and and and give the landscape a little bit. What's actually happening right now? And the source really kind of comes from an article that we we found. Deportation Data Project. Understanding the summer 2026 surge in ICE arrests. And John, you you just recently read the article. Article and everything. So I'll be curious what your thoughts are. But the the John (09:30) Yeah. Well, it's interesting because it it had some graphs and so I I I kind of soak that in as well. And it's it's actually a a PDF that is like a booklet that was done, it was compiled, but it showed the amount of arrest in the last four or five months, let's say since Minneapolis. the and that happened in in the winter, you know, with the the two actually US citizens with that were w were killed, there were it went the graft went from not as much people being rounded up or deported or processed to just this hockey stick that went up and that was And it was affecting all populations, Hispanic populations, particularly in Florida and Texas and the significant amount of people in North Carolina and there was a Victoria (10:40) Well wait, sorry. Sorry. I'm sorry. John (10:42) Okay. you said, whoa, I I agree. so there was in Charlotte in a surge in deportations and and the word got around and there was a twenty two percent increase in Hispanic absences in in schools. Yeah, yeah. Chris (11:07) Hm. Yeah. John (11:09) And and most of these were legal residents. They had their green cards. Chris (11:16) That's the thing that that's the thing that I think people don't really get is is is the the argument. I mean, I I I believe in borders personally and politically as a US citizen. You know, I love the phrase I learned many years ago. good fences make for good neighbors. Okay. That's a great it's not just a line, it's true, right? And John (11:36) line in Robert Frost's poem. Chris (11:39) Yeah, yeah. Is that where it actually comes from? But let me let me read this. I I really like to read things, but I I had I had a a go through the article and the different stuff and this is what it found. Basically repeating a lot of what you just said, John, the enforcement has really increased. newly released government data analyzed by deportation data project, that's the article that we'll have on the website, shows that interior ICE arrests surged during summer twenty six. June and July were the highest arrest months of the current Trump administration, which actually really surprised me. Their analysis also found that the proportion of people arrested who had criminal convictions fell to its lowest point in the available data. So that's kind of a curious differential because we're supposed to be going after the worst of the worst and whatever. The Washington I'm sorry, go ahead. Yes, ma'am. Victoria (12:28) I was gonna say, hey, can I just pause and ha ask a clarifying question? Okay, so what's that that's saying is that as the increase in people that were arrested as that went up, there was a smaller percentage of those people who actually like had committed crimes. Chris (12:47) Right. Correct. Victoria (12:48) Okay, just making sure I understand that correctly. John (12:48) So I'm Chris (12:50) Yeah, John (12:50) wondering that his self-deportation Chris (12:50) yeah, you got it on n you nailed You heard. John (12:53) may have contributed to that? Is is that what I'm Chris (12:56) No, I don't think so, John. I don't think we're talking about self deportation numbers. I could be wrong, I need to study it a little closer, but I think these are just ICE actions. I I John (13:06) Ice Ice Baby. Okay. Chris (13:08) I could be wrong. Listen to it. All right, to go on, the Washington Post analysis of the same governmental data found more than forty nine thousand arrests in July and more than half involved people without a criminal record. So meanwhile, the administration argues that the expanded enforcement is necessary to enforce the immigration law, which is not anything new. and remove people unlawfully present in the country, which I don't think a lot of people terribly disagree with, particularly those with removal orders. I mean if you have a removal order, you need to go home. DHS reiterated just yesterday that it intends to continue using lawful means to locate and remove people. You know, the the pivot here is really, you know, we we all see the news. I mean how can you trust the news nowadays? I know there's a lot of that fear and anxiety which goes into these emotional John (13:56) And it depends on what what T V what news stations you're watching too, what cable streaming, yeah. Chris (14:04) It it it does, John. It does, John. But the point that I want to really make is whatever whatever you think you listening, the the the policy or policies oughta be. The the the the reality, again, through a therapist's eyes, people living inside this uncertainty are being I mean, it's it's terrifying, it's torturous. It it it really is a major psychological event. You know, and and that event I can very easily put traumatic on it. Just like I could put the word medical trauma together. People have real psychological realities that they're facing here. And this is what we're really going to try to focus on. That's that's John (14:44) It Chris (14:44) the main point. John (14:45) okay, now here's my my point is that only twenty seven percent of the July twenty twenty six arrests involve people with criminal convictions. And I say only, that's significant. That's if you've got let's say several million people, I mean that that's a good chunk of people, but then the great majority of people are are law abiding and and living peaceful lives. So Chris (15:16) Yeah, I mean again, the thing that bothers me is is is we we do I mean sorry, let's just call spade a spade. It seems like there's definitely profiling going on. I mean people are being pulled, people are being, you know, taken into custody because of their they're a a passenger in a car that where somebody was speeding or something. It's like, you know, or were they really speeding or blinkers being out or people are going you know, to work and they're there are ICE agents at the agency. They're they're going to frequently placed places, which makes sense. You want to go find illegal people, go where Spanish people go, go where the Haitians are, you know, whatever. But but the thing is is you know, there there needs to be how how we do it. I mean, I'm seeing reports with people are like, Look, yo, I I hear you, I'm a US citizen. Doesn't matter. Get in the car. Wait, I'm a US citizen. Doesn't matter. Get in the car. Like, wait. That That just doesn't add up. John (16:10) Showing you the paper, yeah. Chris (16:12) That that people do not have to as a matter of fact, there as far as I understand by watching and listening and learning, i as a US citizen, if you're walking down the street and anybody walks up to you and says, Hey, show me your ID. I need to make sure you are who you are, you can say no. it you don't have to walk around with like papers demonstrating I'm Chris Kazdick, I'm Austrian, I am here. A US citizen. Here's my birth certificate. Look, here's my passport. Look, this is crazy. Crazy. John (16:44) Well they would know you're Austrian if you wore sandals and you wore socks with your sandals and shorts. But that's Chris (16:51) Yeah. Yeah. So so let's let's let's pivot and and and get into the the the anxiety. You know, what do we do with people when they present in our office and they have you know they're anxious. You know, we we we we need to really make a big distinction. One of the things first off, right? Victoria, when we're doing an assessment and we're assessing Victoria (17:16) Mm-hmm. Chris (17:16) your worrying. Your your hearing things, your thinking things. W what what do we try to figure out? Basically, is this real or is this not, right? Victoria (17:25) Yeah, so we try to basically figure out like you like is this is what they're talking about actually possible? Is it probable or is it like an imminent thing like it is going to happen? so yeah, I mean we kinda have to assess whether or not it's like gonna happen. John (17:49) It's it it's a possibility. Chris (17:49) It's it's not go ahead, John. John (17:52) I'm sorry, it's a possibility that you're gonna be you're gonna be profiled and let's say if your skin's is of a cocoa color, mo mocha colored, or a little darker, you're going to be profiled that way. And and and there's fear. I my client is a little darker in And she is she's afraid of that. Chris (18:19) Can I just say real quick, John, for levity purposes, the the particular I love the way you're describing the the the text the color and whatnot. I just love that. Like I don't see it very often, but that dark, dark, dark complexion I think is absolutely amazing. Absolutely amazing. Isn't that John (18:35) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (18:39) you know, I just had to say that. John (18:40) Yeah. But she she she's afraid to go out and leave the house. And she is now she does have gad, she generalized anxiety disorder, but she also so what came first? The generalized anxiety disorder or the or the fear? Or do they feed into each other? I think that's a reality. Chris (19:02) And that's the challenge. So here's if if you if you come into therapy with me, the the initial appointment, you will probably hear this reality because I want people to learn about, you know, what we're doing here and what to expect. And I usually throw out there sort of a a theoretical almost perspective, and that is what I call the tale of two tapes. I've said this on the show before, but you know, it's an overview of mental health. It's biological realities on one side. social and emotional realities on the other. So on the biological side, you have genetics. You have yeah exercise and nutrition as well, but your body drives how it is that you feel. And then on the other side you have the social and emotional, primary life experiences, primary life's relationships, the daily stress and the grind. And what I try to really think about, John and Victoria, is like when we're assessing this stuff, I want to really give a percentage almost in my brain. Is this like eighty percent genetic because John just mentioned gad generalized anxiety disorder. It's a biological thing. You worry, worry, worry. Well, is that your body literally creating that worry or is it over here? Because there's relationships and experiences in the daily grind, and you have to kind of know that that gets you overthinking. I mean, who hasn't lost sleep over something that's going on? But that's a specific event, person And whatnot. And so I'm trying to figure is this sixty forty, seventy thirty, how much is which, right? That's what we mean I think by assessing. Do you guys look at things in similar way, or how does your brain you know? John (20:41) No, I do. I do. I mean, you know, I I I take a a a detailed history going all the way back to even great grandparents to find out it let's say in the case of my Puerto Rican client, she grew up in New York and she experienced prejudice all the time, discrimination. And you and there were little enclaves, little Puerto Rico, for example, in New York City. And so that's where she lived. And if she went out, she got she had some some issues of discrimination. So she already was primed for that, if you know what I mean. She was primed already to to have that. Turns out, taking a pretty thorough history, her mother and grandmother were both very anxious people as well. So Chris (21:37) Yeah. It's it's wild to think it and it still drives me it's it still makes me shocked a little bit when people are surprised at the genetic reality. I'm kinda like, How could we be surprised at that? You know, it's but but but Victoria, when you hear somebody basically in panic or having, you know, a a a probability turn into Victoria (22:01) Mm-hmm. Chris (22:01) a sense of belief that I you know, like I'm about to die. What are we looking at there? How do we assess that environment, particularly when there's a very real threat that is real and not delusional? John (22:17) you're just catastrophizing. Yeah. Chris (22:20) Right? Victoria (22:23) Yeah, no. we don't do that. Chris (22:27) Yeah. Victoria (22:28) we you know, if the concern and the threat is imminent and like, you know, then yeah, then we have to make an like a a crisis access plan, you know, like what are we doing? What you know, what do they have access to? What exactly are their first concerns? What are like, you know, like breaking it down a little bit and then Also, yes, kind of sifting through and seeing like, okay, what parts of it are the legitimate concern and then like John said, like are there parts of it that they are catastrophizing that we could kind of help minimize that to then focus on like the things that are like of intimate danger, threat and whatnot. Chris (23:11) Yeah. Yeah, you know, there's a journey that we go on, guys. We're the only people. Yes, we're trained and we have experiences, but we we have our own bias, we have our own prejudice, and we're trained to be ethical with that, to guard against that, to kind of manage those thoughts and feelings and whatnot. But the thing of it is, is we are we are just people and so we miss things. you know, I I had a a situation where yeah, and my dear y if you're listening, I I love your group. For sure. But y you know, it it's just it it when I first heard very early on in this that the community in this area was was actually thinking about leaving and then my client's whole group, family group was leaving and going back to Mexico, I literally was kinda like, Wait, what? Why? And I had to challenge myself to like really reassess and look at this community, look at this administration, this environment. This reality. Now they're all here legally, as far as I know, but it doesn't well wait, is that a true statement? I'm not sure. there may be one member that that is not. There was a reason why they got deported. Or they didn't get deported. There is a reason why they left. There was. John (24:25) Tell the point. Chris (24:26) There was one member of the family that was that was here on an extended work release and and and didn't didn't get that taken care of, and so they were freaking scared. I just didn't what I'm trying to convey is I just didn't see why. I didn't understand it, but I had to really challenge myself to get back into realizing wait, this is not a biological anxiety reality. This is a social and emotional. That's where and it's almost like for these people, I haven't met them, but it seems like through my clients' eyes, that this is like a hundred percent social and emotional. They don't have an anxiety diagnosis, they don't have a tendency to worry, they don't have OCD. or obsess on facts or anything like this. They're freaking out that they're up pooling their whole family and going to Mexico a hundred percent, I think, because of this social and emotional reality. That's what we're trying to figure out, guys. Anxiety's real, but so are situations. John (25:27) I think some of them witness violence when they see a loved one or an acquaintance or someone that's not even they're related to, but they just happen to be in that crowd where somebody's picked up and they see ice bashing windshields or or something of this sort, and their their kiddos are seeing this and there's a lot of s crying and and worry and you want to I think it's very similar to developing PTSD. I think it would be Yeah. So Victoria (26:04) I would agree. Chris (26:07) Yeah, absol absolutely. As a matter of fact, well, real quick, the the the therapeutic task that we're getting at when we're John (26:14) Yeah. Chris (26:15) dealing with anxieties, we think about is this a realistic threat? Is this on the social and emotional side of the ledger? What is your emotional skills to manage this? How do you regulate yourself? How do we need to appropriately prepare for the thing? They were gonna go live in Mexico as opposed to here. I thought that was wildly over preparing, but Arguably I was very wrong. and then, you know, continuing to live life. I mean, that's kind of the goal. But let's let's switch gears a little bit through a therapist's eyes and go through a kid's eyes. because Victoria (26:49) Mm. Chris (26:50) I'm I'm thinking it not just because this is an easy get or a a thing to think about when we talk about children, we have compassion for children. I I have compassion for people that are struggling, right? And And I experienced this very early on in my parenting days. So there was a child, I'll say his name is Sebastian. and you know, I I've I've I've thought a lot about Sebastian. I I I I I really I liked this little kid. He was a cute kid. He was he was very good at sports. Very, very fast. He and Adam would run relay races. It was amazing, my kid. Because my kid was fast also. He was a cute little short black haired kid, clearly of Hispanic heritage. I don't know where he was from specifically, but his dad was here illegally. And I remember, I mean, my kids are twenty five now and and twenty one, and this was when they were like five, six, ten years old tops, right? So this is every bit of ten, fifteen, twenty years ago of some sort. And his dad got busted for a DUI. And he got deported. Victoria (28:04) Mm. Chris (28:06) And this family didn't have any income. Sebastian was obviously probably wrecked by this. We we bought a huge bag of rice and took it over. I don't say that to gain whatever, but I say that to say like this family was in need. This family was struggling. The mom couldn't speak English. Now I know they need to get their stuff together. You're living in a country, you better be able to speak the language and learn that. If I'm going to France, I guess I gotta learn some French, right? And I want to go through things legally for sure. But it doesn't change the compassion. Little Sebastian during, before and after struggled, started using curse words, started ha s stopping going to school. He started giving me attitude when he was hanging out even in my yard. He was a troubled little spirit. He was struggling hard. And you can see because this is what people do when they're hurting. This is what people do when they're terrified or when they're having, let's just say, a psychological event that is indelibly and forever imprinted in little Sebastian's mind. John (29:20) Question Could he have been influenced by possibility of gangs because i for his identity? Chris (29:28) Too young. Yeah, he he was he was too young. He was hanging out in my yard at like six years old, John. He I don't think so. John (29:35) So he was cursing at six years old or anything like that. Yeah. So where would he where Chris (29:37) Yeah, yeah. Well, seven, eight, yeah, he started you started to get angry. Yeah. Yeah, no, I don't I don't think so. I don't wanna John (29:45) would he have picked that up? Chris (29:48) curse words? Are John (29:50) All that, yeah. No, where would if Chris (29:52) you saying maybe he picked it up from me? It's possible. Victoria (29:52) Don't say you, Chris. jeez. John (29:57) No, I wasn't trying to be naive on it. I was just Victoria (29:58) my gosh. John (29:59) I was saying that that that he he had a a a clutch of friends and a a a group that th he he felt accepted and even if it wasn't a gang, he felt he he was able to have some identity. And he didn't have his father and he didn't have his father Chris (30:16) It's certainly possible. My my impression John (30:18) to be to to have Chris (30:20) Yeah. John (30:21) an e strong hand. Chris (30:25) Yeah, I I I I feel like my impression, you know, just knowing the kid and, you know, feeding him chicken nuggets every now and again and, you know, having it around my my home, you know, kinda gives me a little bit of an insight about what, you know, he was experiencing. And I have a bullshit meter, so I'm I'm sure he may have had influences otherwise and whatnot, and I can't know that this whole situation was, you know, the pivotal reality that created this very poor behaviour that started to develop. But Dude, I don't know what else would and it's just too uncanningly close to all the things. And I can't imagine coming home and trying to explain to my neighbors that my dad's not here and being hungry John (31:03) So his brain Chris (31:05) and all the stuff, yeah. John (31:06) So his little brain was developing at this time, and so he was developing and so he was his lymphic system was being tr affected, fight, flight, or freeze, as Casey likes to show with the little the the brain and the executive functioning over the the the frontal lobe and so you know and does that. But basically what happens is is that you get re traumatized over and over again and so it goes up and it it bumps up into the frontal lobe, and so that you begin to process it, but you can't. It gets bumped back and you re traumatize and you don't get over that. And so you have one trauma magnifying over another trauma over a series of years and his brain is shaped that way. And so it Chris (32:01) It's it's in it's permanent. It's indelible and permanent, really. Right? I mean Sebastian's an example. I wanted to talk about that because that's just an experience that I've had, and I bet you listening have had many experiences about this too. I want us to be fully eyes open about these issues because they're really affecting a lot of people and our country in a lot of ways right now. thinking specifically about kids. 26 Servant Institute survey found forty percent of adults in immigration families with children worried about encounters with immigration authorities. I don't know how it's that low. I I I'm kind of shocked. Victoria (32:38) Right. That's a lot wait, repeat that again? Chris (32:41) Forty percent of adults in immigration in immigrant families with children worried about encounters with immigration authorities. I I I would like to know who the fifty three percent are that aren't. John (32:49) I I would be very surprised that it's that low as well, because I think it's it I think I I've seen higher. I've seen like sixty percent something pushing that level. Sixty two, sixty three percent. Chris (33:00) Yeah. And then forty two forty two percent worried that they, a family member or a close friend, could actually be deported. But here's the thing that that that is how does this affect people? when you start freaking out, you start having anxieties, whether it be because of social and emotional events or biological, Victoria, people avoid stuff, right? Like what is the day in, day Victoria (33:24) yeah. Chris (33:25) out experience here? Victoria (33:27) I mean, yeah, I remember when ICE was in the Charlotte area and I had a client who we actually did virtual for a period of time because they were trying to they were fine, like they had documentation, they were good. but they wanted to minimize their the times that they were driving out and about, you know, around Mecklenburg, Gaston County. And like, I mean, I think they were also telling me that there was that like their church services had been temporarily like moved to virtual because they didn't like they didn't want to have a congregation of people meeting like at their church. There was like other Community programs I remember that were being put on hold or made virtual if possible. Like programs that people actually like benefit from, like, you know, like food pantries and other things who were like afraid to get together because of John (34:42) Exactly right. Victoria (34:43) like the anxiety and and it's so funny. It's like I kind of attribute it to like you know when You pa when you're driving down the road and you pass a c a cop car on the side of the road and your like heart rate instantly raises and you're like, my god, they're gonna pull me over. Even if you were going, like the speed limit. Like, even if you were John (35:02) You were going fast. Yeah. No, you never go to sleep on that. But Victoria (35:08) but it's like that. It's like, you know, you pa it's kind of that rut like, even though I'm I might be fine, that still causes this like high anxiety for people that really impacts like their ability to be able to like function in their everyday lives and do the things that they would typically do day to day, whether that be work or community things or social or family things, like all that stuff gets impacted. Chris (35:37) That's lot of things. John, let me throw it to you, whatever you were gonna say as well, but you know, w in our assessment, that's a lot of loss. That's a lot of inactivity. That's a lot of keyword avoidance. Do you see that because of a clinical biological realm or is that social and emotional and how do we discern? And what else you were gonna say? John (35:58) I I I think that's all combined. I think that's why we have to take it as a system, you know, in terms of of the condition of the that the person may be perhaps the person is predisposed for depression or anxiety, biologically predisposed for that, or bipolar or whatever, like anyone else, but it's amplified very much within a friend group or within a a mutual group of let's say there of a Hispanic community where they said, I heard this, this, this, and this. I can't feel safe if I go to church because and that's my faith is very important to me. My I cannot be a devout Catholic or Christian as a result of of of this and I'm worried about having a committing a sin by not not attending church on a regular basis. And so my r relationship with God is is is is somehow jeopardized. There is a sense of of of of fear that you're outside and you're going into church and ice may show up and would target and perhaps pick somebody up from the congregation. That's traumatic. And those kids will see that and they will They'll have that reinforced into the brain and they will be reinforced with fear and and and that trauma. I don't know. Chris (37:34) Look, I I I was just listening to you, John, and and and I I'm re I'm reminded of it's a family joke now, you know. when I was I don't know how old I was. I my br I got an older brother and he was I don't know, man, he was mean to me sometimes. Ronnie, I love you, brother, but dude, it was hard and he he we laugh about it now, but I was so upset one night and we I we were in trouble or something was going on. It was already an emotional evening I think my brother maybe got in trouble, but I remember I was literally sitting in the closet at the time that he said this, but he he dis he explained he he exc exclaimed that he was going to leave and he was going to go to an Indian reservation and he was out of here and he and he wasn't and he wasn't coming back and so I started crying and I'm upset. I'm like, Don't go to the Indian reservation, stay home, you know, it's like My older brother was leaving me. Now that's a fun story now. But just John (38:37) What's it then? Chris (38:38) imagine it wasn't fun then. And just imagine if ongoingly that was real. It's Victoria (38:48) I say like young Chris was probably you were probably like scared out of your mind because if like if you didn't know he was joking, you know, like you thought it was like for real happening. And so Chris (38:59) I thought it was real. I thought it was real. And I think, Victoria (39:02) Tot you were losing your brother. Chris (39:04) yeah, man, my bro is going to Indian reservation. You know, like what am I gonna do? I'm gonna be all by myself here. Like you can't do that. that's just man, little kids create all sorts of things in their mind. And sometimes again, question a little while ago, what do we do when it's real? You know, that's that's hard. Mom may not be home tonight. You know, like people will not go outside the house. Well, should I not go outside the house? I just wanna play hide and go seek or kick the can. You know? Victoria (39:39) Or or John (39:39) Yeah. Victoria (39:40) I like I look like the people across the street that aren't leaving their house. So does that mean that I should not leave my house because I look like them? Or we have a similar last name or the same last name or we go to the same church. And so if they're not, you know, like that can easily translate onto like other people. Chris (40:02) It's all deeply emotional. And and that family that does whatever I that freeze drives me crazy. Look like me. I just think it's a funny phrase. But that family, you know, looks like me and we were pulled over by a police officer yesterday. You know? So it's just again, things pull together and I think John (40:20) You connect you connect that. And so it's all it's and so even if it if it isn't something that that was meant not meant to be malign or malignant, it it affected that person because they they they made they made a conclusion that it was connected, that it was connected to deportation or the fear of it. Here's the other other thing. I would give you an example. personal example from my my family. My daughter, my youngest daughter is Filipino. And she is she is very Hispanic looking. She has a little more of the what would be Asian features and yet at the same time w it's not unusual for people to come up to her and speak Spanish to her. And so she's I don't know what that is, but but when she was Chris (41:19) He said. John (41:20) But when she was in high school, and this was at a new church, this was in Texas, we had a lady that came up to her and said, I see that you're here. When are you going back to see your real parents? Chris (41:38) Right. John, I'm sorry, man. John (41:40) Well so e yeah, well it she did has to step slip in the church since. So has an op Chris (41:47) She has now. It's avoidance. John (41:49) avoidance, yeah. So that's a good example. Chris (41:51) Yeah, Victoria (41:51) Wait, your Chris (41:51) you know it's Victoria (41:52) daughter wait, your daughter hasn't stepped foot in church since? John (41:54) sense, yeah, except when there's been a death or a wedding. Chris (42:00) Yeah. And and and just for Victoria (42:01) I think that says a lot. Chris (42:03) and just yeah, Victoria, just for the listening audience that may not know exactly, I mean John's a Presbyterian minister, man. You like you know, you ran churches and stuff, right? Yeah. John (42:10) So I'm gonna call it my new church, you know, but so I was caught in a in a rock and a hard place and had to be able to say how do I how do I stretch people a little bit? How do I stretch their their viewpoint? So Chris (42:29) Right. No, right, John. And I and I think, you know, it's it's easy to to to sort of belittle or or shrink from these realities, but you know, I I mean these are these are real impacts and and and our psychology system is just operating that way. And you know, it's I'm really glad you shared that. It makes me sad. I wish we could help. But y you know, people will they People will avoid that which they're fearful of. That's the main point here in this little spot. People won't drive, they won't go to a specific place, they won't answer their door, they they don't call police, they don't go to the doctor, they don't go to school, they don't go to the you know, the neighborhood community meeting. John (43:13) And they live in fear, constant fear, and it reinforces itself, that isolation. So they are isolated by society, they're isolated by the government, which they should be able to trust, they're isolated by people that don't look just like them, but you know that and and most of us would say There's no difference. I I I look at my daughter and I don't see a difference. I see maybe skin color a little bit and all of that, but you know, she's a pope, you know, through and through. But the but she she's had to struggle with that for many years and and she's carried that wound with her. So this is very near and dear to my heart 'cause I I I don't want people to live in fear. you know, so Chris (44:12) I hear that, John. And and and I want people to follow the law, you know, but I guess the main thing is how do we go about this? What is the culture environment? What is the what what is the environment that we're trying to create? And last I understood, you know, police is supposed to protect and serve. I the thing that really gets me a little bit hot with this particular issue is again, we're oftentimes talking about US citizens here, guys. We're not talking about people from Haiti or Venezuela or John (44:46) Well, my daughter was when Joy and I adopted Kate, she was supposed to become automatically a naturalized US citizen. But nine eleven happened, and guess what happened? She Chris (45:01) Titan Reigns. John (45:02) they tightened the reins and so she had to go through naturalization even though she was technically an an American citizen already. And Chris (45:12) Well, she's not exactly natural though, she is a pope. Kidding kidding. John (45:15) Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, the Pope, you know. Yeah. But Chris (45:21) It was a joke. John (45:23) but that's that's the point, is though she hears that little insult on top of it that she's somehow different. Victoria (45:30) Keep it. John (45:32) And Chris (45:33) So so let's go to the panel question and just kind of rap about this for a for for a minute. John (45:37) Okay. Chris (45:39) how do you treat anxiety when the thing your client is afraid of is actually possible? We've talked a little bit about that, but at what point also at what point does reasonable vigilant vigilance become psychologically destructive hyper vigilance? Because there's there's a question that Neil brought up, you know, in our chat as well, you know, where was the family? w you know, members and and he's talking about my neighbor kid, Sebastian, you know, to help him deal with this trauma, to help him deal with the events. And I think, you know, Neil, what I'm thinking is is honestly, i it's they're in the same boat. As a matter of fact, I kinda remember Sebastian Victoria (46:18) Sister. Chris (46:19) being the one that would speak for his mom. as a matter of fact, I remember, you know, Sebastian brought his mom to our door with a piece of cheesecake. He went to all the neighbors And and you know, the mom had made a a cheesecake and and she wanted to sell the cheesecake and Sebastian had to you know translate for her and whatnot. Not an ideal family situation for them, but just the point is is like, you Victoria (46:35) What's that? What's that? What's that? Chris (46:45) know, there's there's so much that goes into that. Like w what do we do? What what when is it reasonable to be vigilant and when is it s destructive? Because sometimes the illegal immigrant Victoria (46:54) And these people there. Chris (46:58) or the family Or the people that are neighbors or the US citizens are not helping themselves. Is that a fair statement? John (47:11) Yeah, in other words, what you say? Well, you're saying, let's say that the mother Chris (47:11) Real big pause on that one, y'all. Victoria (47:13) Sor sorry. John (47:17) she didn't learn English. Is that what I'm hearing? And so there's some Yeah. Chris (47:21) She didn't in her example, but but I'm saying like, you know, a at what point is are these are we is this reasonable to be that vigilant, avoid church, avoid school, whatever. And and and and what point is it really destructive hypervigilance that the John (47:35) Yeah. I think that's the point. Chris (47:36) immigrant is not helping themselves? John (47:38) So as a therapist we have a little bit and in in very much in our profession as mental health counselors, clinical mental health counselors, is that we have an advocacy aspect and I'm sure it's the same in in social work. we just see things just a little bit different. But Chris (48:00) Dude, that's our shtick in social work. Are you kidding me? Y you try to take our John (48:02) Yeah. Yeah. Well Chris (48:04) thing. John (48:04) well that's right. We we we can we can do school counseling, career counseling, that's very much a part of our foretake. But having having said that, is to be able what therapeutic intervention would you do Victoria (48:20) Right. John (48:21) and what would be effective? Well, I think person centered would also be able to normalize their feelings and that they say that they're not somebody from Mars, that they're not alone and because the beautiful thing about person centered counseling is what it's pretty universal and and is very helpful. Second one is to pull out of your the out of your hat and be able to apply a type of C B T or R E B T and and particularly In order to be able to say what is realistic, you do reality testing, particularly what is a real fear, w like I'm gonna get deported, or they're here. So that's a reasonable thing, and what is not reasonable, well, all people over generalization, everybody's against it. Chris (49:21) that's a big word. John (49:22) Okay. In other words, everybody is I can't trust anybody. And and So what C V T would do is that would help you test that Victoria (49:35) Okay. John (49:35) and and sort of test those fears and say is this true and is it generalizable generalizable that that this would be no what would be a good word Chris or or Victoria, what would be a good word to say for generalizing and make it let's say what would be true. Chris (50:01) w what do you mean, generalizing? I mean I think that's the word. I mean I I think Yeah John (50:04) Okay. All right. You said I was using big words, so I wanted to go back. Chris (50:08) No, that's general that's one of the big things. That's what I said. Overgeneralization is a is a big factor that that goes into this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And and I appreciate that, John. I mean, I I don't I don't John (50:14) okay, I I hear you now. it seems like one felt one fell threatened. Chris (50:20) know that I'm sorry, go ahead. You feel threatened. well, John (50:22) No threat. No threat. Chris (50:25) let's go. This panel thing that we're talking about, the panel question is is is is a new thing that we're doing, like we said last week, but you know, playing around with it out I don't think we're gonna disagree a lot with this one though, John. I mean John (50:37) I I don't either. Chris (50:38) Victor you know, Victoria dropped off. I'm I'll be curious in a moment w she finds her way back. But, you know, I mean it's it's it's really One of the things we s we are aware of as clinicians, John, you can correct me if I'm wrong. John (50:57) Yeah. Chris (50:58) We don't we're very, very cautious about blaming the victim. That's a phrase that we have in our our vernacular. And all that means is you we can fall into the trap. Like I was I was maybe falling into that trap with my own perceptions that I don't think you need to move to Mexico in order to, you know, manage the threat that ICE is coming to Charlotte and they're calling it Charlotte's Web. That was what they called their operation here. But I was probably blaming them in my mind for a moment. And and that that is a more than reasonable choice for them, I have come to figure a long time ago. So, John, I think, you know, it's it's it's really yeah, it's kind of how do we how do we manage the the the The teaching, the the supporting, the the learning that goes in for you know, if you're really not helping yourself. well we got producer Neil jumping on. That means he's got a thought, he's got a statement, he's coming with blazing guns. my god. John, buckle it up, let's get ready. He's gonna bring it. What you got, Neil? Neil - Producer (52:08) No, I'm I'm not bringing anything. I was just letting that Victoria had to hop off. So she I figure I'd fill the void as as she's coming in there. But I do I do think there's a lot of stuff when it comes to the anxiety. There's a lot of things that there's a lot of stuff that people build up and their thoughts, their processes. There's a lot of stuff that comes into play. A lot of the stuff to me when it comes to, my God, something's happening to people like me, it's it's an over It's a situation. So when there's a plane crash, no one wants to fly. But there's millions of plane flights that happen. It's one of those things that when you look at and you're focusing on what could happen, it makes it very hard to live the life that that you need to live. And I think there's a lot of stuff when it comes to the numbers that happen, the the who's who's really getting detains that's US. When you really break it down logically, it's not. as big of a risk, but it is serious, right? You still have to be aware that you still have to follow these things. And I think the hardest problem for a lot of people is who they talk to, who they hang out with, who they associate, what they watch, you're going to get a lot of negative concerns. Once again, you know, looking at if I want to travel to one part of the country, if I'm looking at what are all the bad things that happens in that city, I'm going to get all of the bad things in that city. If I say what are the good things that are in that city, I'm not going to know about the bad stuff. It's just that mindset of where you are with these and and how you're looking at it from a victim mentality or from a you know what could happen. It's it's really to me, I think it's an unhealthy thing to look at is that when you're always focusing on the scary part of it or what could happen, it makes it hard to get to that next level. And I think that's the part that you guys do a great job helping people get out of that rut of being like, How do you go through and rationalize this thing so I can have a normal life again? John (54:00) So you have to challenge the the negative thoughts or cognitions is is a a term of art, but in other words, your irrational thoughts and that that a person has to to to say but also also validate the real fears and and so that equips somebody and prepares them. 'Cause I was I was thinking about all the statistics or sadistics about absenteeism and truancy with school children and all that fear causes I think a fear not being able to get an education and so they're gonna be behind. And so I think the government when it does these activities that are like these eyes Charlotte's web for example i is really a detriment for for students with Hispanic class names surnames so that they don't they get the education that they need and to continue on and to be able to appropriate and and realize the American dream for themselves and their families. So I I I went Chris (55:25) Yeah. John (55:26) off on track a little bit, but Chris (55:28) Well yeah, let me pull us back on track with what you're talking about, Neil, and this little panel discussion that we've got going on here, because I I think there's a reason why we haven't talked about social media yet today. I I've been very purposeful about that. And so I understand, Neil, who you talk to, who you hang out, reach news, where you, you know, coagulate or co c congregate. People don't coagulate, blood coagulates, but anyway. John (55:54) my god. Chris (55:56) But you know I I I I I think oftentimes that's what we're talking about, Neil, when we're we're assessing is this genetic, biological, my anxiety levels are high because I have a condition. Is this social and emotional? And how does that impact excuse me, me? Neil - Producer (56:16) Bless you. Chris (56:17) And thank you. And and and I think that you have to kind of discern what rises above that. And it's ironic that I'm going to maintain at this point that it isn't really a you just watch Fox News and you're thinking one way and you just watch PBS and that that's why you think another way. That first certainly affects us. I don't get me wrong. But I think this particular issue rises above it. And I think it rises above it because it's so intimate. This there's an intimate connection with these communities. I don't think about the Haitians, for instance. I don't really know about the culture. I'm really pretty broadly ignorant. But I'm willing to bet that is a very tight knit community. Those are people that personally experience the interactions with that community. And it isn't I mean, they're not even talking about it on social media. So, you know, I think there's some some real experience that rises above some of the normal sort of things that we help people come down off the cliff with. I for instance, I'm constantly trying to help people. you know, relax about sending their kid to school when there's a school shooting. But they watch the news all day and they're like, my God, I gotta keep my kid from school. No no no no no no no no no. But this this issue I feel like is a little bit different. Either you see that or think that? John (57:43) Okay. Well I was gonna make a a a a question and this is I don't know the statistics on this, but I I suspect that a lot of the violence that Hispanics experience are from within their community. unfortunately I think I see that in unfortunately in in other communities as well, that and so so that fear Chris (58:08) Again, it's personal. John (58:10) Personal, yeah. And it gets amplified and so it's like you know, it starts out as a little reverberation and then it just kinda goes and gets stronger the resonance gets stronger and stronger and then it's out of hand and and so fear takes over and I'm gonna give you a good opportunity to go into social media. So yeah. Chris (58:33) Indeed. All right. we are gonna go to our segment before the shrink wrap up, which is practical questions. This is where we speak to you through the screen. We cannot be your therapist. We're not delivering therapy services, but we want to give you a thoughtful question practically to take away with this. Neil, question for you, brother. Are you wanting to try to play armchair therapist? Have you had your V eight? Have you slept in the Holiday Inn? Do you want to take one of these questions or forego this segment? in lieu of Victoria. Neil - Producer (59:03) I'll take one. I don't I'm fine. Chris (59:06) All right, well let's put him on the spot, John. Let's make him go first. John (59:08) You go first. Neil - Producer (59:10) Does it matter which one? John (59:11) No. Chris (59:12) Nope. Nope. Neil - Producer (59:13) Alright, so so the question that you need to ask yourself right as you think about this is is your fear helping you prepare for something or simply forcing you to experience the feared event every day before it happens? This goes back to are you doing a what if sentence? Are you saying, I'm living my life in case this happens? And I mean, is that really beneficial for you? And and there is a logical set setup. You have to you know, things happen in life that you do have to prepare for and you have to be aware of it. If you walk into a situation and you're not aware of it, your anxiety, your fear, all that stuff takes over your body. So thinking about something and preparing for it is actually valuable because you actually can't handle these stressful situations better. But the question goes back, are you doing this to prepare? Are you just doing this and or do you just experience this fear over and over again because that's what you're thinking about? So just It's good to think, be prepared that you you know, with those pieces, but yeah, why why are you doing this? To prepare for something or are you just basically forcing yourself to relive something that might happen? Chris (1:00:17) John, this is ridiculous. He's been on this show too long. He sounds like a diagram therapist, bro. John (1:00:21) He sure does. Chris (1:00:24) Well done, Neil. I no, and I want to take this one because I want to do the one on the kids and it's 'cause it's something that I've been thinking about with this issue a lot, you know, and the Sebastian's sort of thing, you know, has been on my mind. not just in prep for the show, but in in in in reality recently. when you think about your interactions, when you think about your conversations, when you think about your environment, because you are responsible for your home environment. the customs that you have, the traditions that you have, the routines that you have. Are your children absorbing anxiety from all of that? Right? In and especially in a way that they complete don't completely understand. Right? I you know, we need to have like you the parent or you the uncle or you the the the the the member of the family, even an older brother to a certain extent, you know, are are are are you are you developing for the young ones especially Can you help them to understand what's going on? And I think that we miss that because we get into our own mental space and it's overwhelming and we drop the ball on some things that we really want to be able to do. So pay attention to that. John, do you have a practical question for John (1:01:37) Well, Chris (1:01:37) folks? John (1:01:38) I'm I'm wondering, can you prepare for something difficult without psychologically living through it every day? And I and I would say yes you can. It it it's not perfect. But there's a there's a one of the early founders of of modern psychology, and it was it was Alfred Adler, Adlerian theory. I'm sorry I'm doing all this, but Chris (1:02:06) Love me no, I'm doing it. I love me some Adler. John (1:02:09) Yeah. Adler said, live as as if it's something. So that prepares you for something. It's good to rehearse. It doesn't mean that you allow it to overwhelm you or to get you down, but that you are prepared for the vaguaries. It's a reality that you have to live with. And in your unfortunately, in your life. And so you're able to harden yourself, to be able to have some resilience and prepare yourself mentally and emotionally for that. That is to also practice active thinking, positive thinking, in terms of, you know, if this happens, how am I going to react? Do I have some sort of purchase that I can use and hold on to that will be able to carry me? through difficult times like spirituality, like having one's you know, who am I going to call if something and call on in terms of family and to be able to rely on that. So live as if in a positive way that once if something like this happens, you will be prepared for all anything that comes your way, or as much as possible can come your way. Chris (1:03:35) Love that. Alright, we're taxing in for a landing of the journey that we've been on here together for the last hour and some change and and we end usually by doing a shrink wrap up. Here's a question for you, John. No, not you, John. the the arbitrator is Neil. we like to just do a little friendly competition where we kind of summarize the show, give a wrap up, and Neil gets to make a little determination of who nailed it this week and who gets the win at the end of the year, John (1:04:03) Yeah, but I don't Chris (1:04:04) or maybe. Or he you love it, John. Stop saying you don't like it. John (1:04:06) No, I don't like it. I think it you know, it's it's people that are very articulate can get it can win more often than Chris (1:04:16) So at the end of the year we'll see who tallies up, Neil. It's we will get some s some swag, some trinkets, some hugs, some some pride of of of the shrink wrap up challenge. But Victoria was here the whole time mostly, but she had a drop at the end. So I don't know that she I feel like you know if you're if you're not, you know, Casey did didn't isn't able to do so. That's her loss. We we continue the friendly competition. But she was here all day. So did we want to grade this one or we want to we want to say no? I I'm thinking maybe not. John (1:04:41) Maybe now. Chris (1:04:43) That's why I'm not asking you, John. What says you? What's the ruling, mister Robinson? Neil - Producer (1:04:49) I guess we'll take a month off of the shrink wrap up 'cause we I don't think we've done at all this month. So we can just, you know, give John the relief this month and just basically just go without it. John (1:04:57) I need that relationship. Neil - Producer (1:04:59) He's had enough Chris (1:04:59) Ha ha ha. Neil - Producer (1:05:00) issues. Yeah, I mean you see his eye, he got in a fist fight today and so he he's just kinda tired. John (1:05:03) It was my wife that did it to me. Chris (1:05:07) Joy, come on. We gotta talk to her. That's not cool. Listen, my wrap up only would be look, this is an issue that is important. It is one of the things that the current administration has absolutely put at the top of the list. And honestly, it's one that we mostly agree about. This is an important issue. No one's happy when millions of people are coming undocumented throughout borders. This is why we have checkpoints. This is why we have security. why we have laws and a process and we need to follow them. I don't think many people disagree with that. How we go about doing that, how compassionate we are in that process, I mean, we don't want to degrade ourselves into middle eve, mid middle middle, what's what am I trying to say, middle ages time. You know, and we don't want to go back to dark ages and whatnot. So that that I think that's the main issue. And and and even if somebody has broken the law, can we have compassion for them? You know, we just we just talked last week about Lindsay Clancy and and all of the people that had compassion for her having murdered arguably three full children. So i c y we can have compassion and borders and process at the same time. Neil, I think that gives me the dub, right? John (1:06:25) Okay. You know, I I'm gonna I'm gonna go a little bit different here. I don't like this segment. Well, Chris (1:06:28) he he's gonna go. He doesn't like this segment, John Neil, but John's gotta go. John (1:06:33) no, I don't like this segment very much because I think it it it it it puts us at odds too often. my my sense of this is that it's in yeah, we're we're not gonna change the minds of of the government about how it treats people, but When I see this happening and you know, I I I I I I I'm a child of the South. I grew up in Florida, I was born in Kentucky, grew up in in Florida, and I I see the idea of people having living under the fear of slavery, even if they h were freed and freedmen, they They would often, at times back before the Civil War, would be kidnapped and brought back to the South. And and the thing is, is that that's passed on in general. It's from generation to generation that trauma is is sent back over and over again. And I see that we as a government, Because we we we should be concerned about people's mental health. And I think that's where we come in as as counselors and as therapists. But I think as a government, we have a in a society, we have a responsibility to help our population feel more secure. Yeah, take care of our borders, make sure those borders are tight, that the people that are are committing crimes that they be deported. But not to have families be under the fear that they are might be rounded up and deported out of the country. That they that let's let's hang on and embrace the future, the the what can be in society and make them in terms of living in a in a country where people are able to thrive. and have that education and have opportunities and to make a good living and raise everybody up. Chris (1:08:47) Really well said, John. Honestly, Neil, you do what you want. I think he gets the dub. Neil - Producer (1:08:54) I I think I think this is the ploy. We're gonna tell John we're not doing the shrink wrap wrap up and then we'll just kinda go through the recap and then we'll just I'll pick a winner but not say it's the shrink wrap up. But no, I think John I think I think it is good that I think what you said would win today. So John, good job. You got the win. Unofficially John (1:09:11) you I hate doing that, yeah. Okay. Chris (1:09:14) All right, listen, this is a good topic. we're gonna be doing the month in review next week. I believe Kyle King will be jumping on with us. We'll hang out and talk about all these powerful topics that we talked about. Weed, Lindsey Clancy, the freaking immigration thing. These are big deals and I am dying to know how John and or I'm sorry, Kyle and Neil will will jump at these topics on the month in review. So stay well, take care. We'll see next week. John (1:09:39) Thank you.