In the September 2026 month-in-review episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, host Chris Gazdik and the panel reflect on three major topics previously covered on the show. They revisit their conversation on weed normalization (Ep. 370), breaking down common myths, physical risks like Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome, and whether public perception has moved faster than the science. Next, they re-examine the tragic Lindsay Clancy case (Ep. 371) to look back at the realities of postpartum psychosis, exploring how severe mental illness impacts accountability and where clinicians draw the line between crisis and legal responsibility. Finally, the team recaps their discussion on deportation anxiety (Ep. 372), reviewing practical ways families cope when living under chronic fear and how to stay grounded when a threat is real rather than imaginary.
Tune in to see the September Month in Review.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
Episode 370: Three Questions:
Has legalization changed our perception of marijuana faster than science has changed our understanding of it?
Is marijuana actually safer than alcohol—or have we simply started treating it that way?
Can something have legitimate medical benefits and still cause serious harm?
Episode 371: Three Questions:
What should families and mental-health professionals recognize about postpartum illness before a crisis occurs?
How can a loving parent become so psychiatrically ill that she becomes dangerous to herself or her children?
When does severe mental illness change how we should think about responsibility for a horrific act?
Episode 372: Three Questions:
Where is the line between reasonable preparation and living your life in hypervigilance?Three Questions:
Where is the line between reasonable preparation and living your life in hypervigilance?
How do you manage anxiety when the thing you’re afraid of could actually happen?
What happens to a family when children begin worrying that a parent might not come home?
How do you manage anxiety when the thing you’re afraid of could actually happen?
What happens to a family when children begin worrying that a parent might not come home?
Links referenced during the show: Please refer to each episode prior.
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Episode #373 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello, I am Chris Gazdik with Through a Therapist Eyes, and you have found us on September the 24th on YouTube Live where we fire up usually at about 6.15 to 6.30. It would happen to be 545 because our boy Kyle decided to jump on early and he he inspired us. You have have caught us on the month in review. The last what is this Thursday in the month we do a a month in review of the shows that we did and we get to hang out with Kyle King. He's the master of the month in review. How are you, sir? Kyle (00:33) Doing well. Hope you guys are. Chris (00:35) Love that. I gotta say the lighting in the background there is pretty cool. You're like you're angelic around your head with your Panthers Panthers lighting. Pretty cool. You gotta check it out on YouTube if you're catching us on the audio version and Neil comes out from behind the curtain. Mr. Neil Robinson, how are you? Neil (00:51) I am doing fantastic. Chris (00:54) how are you feeling about these shows that we're gonna review a little bit? I'm just kinda curious about your your gut level feel. Neil (01:03) They're very they're definitely very could be polarizing, we'll just say that. It it it it it it could be polarizing Chris (01:11) It'd be polarizing. Neil (01:14) depending on what we say. I think I feel like our conversation today, depending how K Kyle and I go into it, might be different from the way you guys went into it. So but we'll we'll see. Kyle (01:24) boy. Looking forward to this. Chris (01:26) it's gonna be a it's gonna be a grand one, man. We did episode three seventy. Let's talk about weed, cannabis, myths, busted, and risks nobody talks about. We followed that up with another it was like a current event month, Kyle. You know, episode three seventy one was all about the Lindsay Clancy, postpartum psychosis, mental illness, and criminal responsibility. My goodness, that I I that was a good show. That was a good show. And We followed that up with none other than episode three seventy-two, Who's Afraid of ICE? Deportation Anxiety and the Mental Health Impact of Immigration. We really did, man. It was like controversial, mental health laden, kinda in the news right now month. kinda I I agree, Neil. I'm kind of excited to see how the two of you will will kind of pop in with that. Kyle, I'm just kinda curious how you feel. about these topics all in conglomerate. Kyle (02:27) that that sounds like a it it's it just sounds like a mix of different topics. I mean, some some and you can take that so many different wa the conversation so many different ways on each of them. Chris (02:40) Yeah, indeed. Let me get my intro stuff out of the way. This is where you get insights and time in your home and your car but knowing is not delivered therapy services in any way. we oftentimes on our regular shows have three qu content questions we ask you to think about. started to hit those on the monthly review anyway, so I'll hit those when we do the individual shows. five stars, we need the Apple reviews and all the things to help us as John Pope, a normal panelist on the show. Says helps us rise to the top like cream to a coffee. I just I can't do it, I can't replicate it, can I, Neil? Can't Neil (03:16) No one can. Chris (03:17) replicate it. Contact it through therapisties.com is a great way to interact with us. Listen, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day, and this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. I like to say on all of our shows that this is the human emotional experience which we endeavor to figure out together, and I mean it. And particularly this month, man, it's it's a lot of it's a lot of elements that we we've been dealing with as a society lately. before we get to those though, we on the month in review go down the rabbit hole with Mr. Kyle King, a little fun segment we like to do. He picks out something in the world. I don't know, man. I think I might have you talked to this time three times over. I'll be curious what you got, Kyle. But this is very Kyle (04:01) I think I might have I might have a good one for you. So let's see if if I can top you today. All right. All right. So I don't know if Chris (04:06) All right, I love it. I love it. Something about Go ahead. Kyle (04:09) Neil's gonna remember this, but I think you and I can remember this. Do you remember when the the the old Nintendos came out? Right. And we had that game called Punch Out and we had the glass, the character Glass Joe, right? We could fight you fighting Tyson, right? Chris (04:19) Tyson, baby. Tyson. Kyle (04:23) Yeah, that was cool, right? That was the game and we had the good animations. We can control it and we can see if we beat Tyson. All right. Chris (04:30) yeah. I I gotta see, Neil Neil, you do remember that, don't ya? Okay. Neil (04:33) Yeah, of course. Yeah. Chris (04:35) I figured he's got it. Kyle (04:35) All right, all right, good, Chris (04:36) Yeah. Kyle (04:37) good. So let me ask you a question. What if instead of being a character in the game, you're actually controlling something that was physically fighting a real human? Chris (04:47) Jesus. Kyle (04:51) Bear with me, bear with me. Chris (04:53) my god, where are we going? Kyle (04:56) This is a viral thing. So you I don't know if you've seen the news, but there is a YouTuber that actually got in the ring with three different robots. Mechanical robots. You know, so six foot tall, two hundred pounds. He's wearing all this protective gear. Now, what was it's not an autonomous robot. It is still being controlled by a human being. So think of the movie Real Still, if you remember Real Still. I mean, the humans are still controlling the boxing. But this is what it was. So the mechanics of the robot actually maintained the balance and everything against the human, but the person controlling it was actually doing the fighting. Now, the last one, round three, the round three, the third robot, it it actually kicked him pretty hard and kicked him across the s the the ring. I mean, if you actually go out there and watch it. Now keep in mind, this is on the news and I was like, well that that's that's a pretty good rabbit hole because I can come up with all kinds of things. Yeah. Chris (05:58) I would say you're like locked on there. Kyle (06:01) Cause I'm like, I there's so many different facets that you could you you could talk about, you know, with this. I mean, you would think about like games, you know, games coming to life and you're bringing Chris (06:12) Jeez. Kyle (06:13) the the fictional world out into the real world, so to speak. Because now you're actually able to control you can here's Blast Joe that from the punch out game, you're actually controlling him in real life. And he he's up against whoever character that you put to get put in front of him. And it also brings up a a question, a mental health question. So couple of different questions. Is the version you know Chris (06:37) Blown away. I don't even my brain like spinning, Kyle. I I I'm s I'm spinning. Kyle (06:40) Ha ha ha. Chris (06:41) I have I have about ten questions and about four or five statements about where we're going in this world where we are literally blending our neurons and whatever. I mean we're gonna have we're gonna have systems in our on our body that we're wearing and what do they call it? Rogan talks about it a lot. Kyle (07:01) Yeah. I mean, and and you th you think about, you know, the just the you know from sec from a technology standpoint alone, you know, the implications that you where it could go from there, it's it's you know, it's thought provoking, I would say. but you know, if you think about it, you know, if you're the one controlling the robot, does that make you more confident or more secure? You know, does it give you more sense of a success because you're the one actually controlling that person. It's not just a game. You're you're actually fighting a real person that can think for themselves, right? You know, so does it give you a sense of can you know success and confidence, just like you would like in a real like when you're playing a real game? You Chris (07:44) Right. Kyle (07:45) know, you beat this stage, you beat that. And you know, you can there's so many different facets that you can think about, you know, could the could like your success, you know, using like an avatar in this case or a robot or whatever. in some kind of external body, you know, could it actually increase your self-confidence or make you more dependent on it? Yeah. And I and I thought about that and I was like, when I when I read some, you know, I was reading up on this and I was reading through that. I'm like, wow, that's a really powerful statement. It's like you go ahead. Chris (08:17) Yeah, and and and honestly, I don't know. I I mean it the it it's something that I don't think we can really conceptualize because of all of the dynamics of where we're going, where where where we're at and and where where we're Heading with all the AI obviously and all of the technology fastly developing. You know, it's been a a a favorite topic of mine in more recent times, and it and it it you know we we we we become all kind of seemingly confident, Kyle, behind the screen, saying stuff and posting stuff and all the things we say that we would never say to another human being. And so Kyle (08:57) Right. Right. Chris (08:59) the first place my brain went is, I'm gonna try the round kick because it doesn't matter, he ain't gonna hurt me. I'm gonna go ahead and expose a weakness and go ahead and round kick. follow up by an uppercut and jump up in the air and do a fancy kick just because of the hell of it. And so you you know. Kyle (09:11) Yeah, 'cause we get yeah. We get to do th we get to try things and do things that we wish we could do in our physical form, right? Chris (09:19) Yeah. Yeah. I Neil, I know you're a gamer a little bit, man. What do you think about these games and and how how the mental health goes into it? Neil (09:30) I think goes back to any of the games, right? Because I there's a lot of people who get it get into this, you know, PvP type of role and you know they live vicariously through the game, right? Like you said, I can do a roundhouse kick, somersault, and if I beat you, it's a win is a win, right? So I could see a there could be a thing for this where people once again, when it comes to the human psyche, like whatever it takes to win to get that position, like if you can do that and not risk your own bodily harm. That changed the whole dynamic of everything. Chris (10:02) mean it's it's almost like we're we're we're we're we're all drone warfare elements, right? Like you know, every American in the in the world has a drone a assigned to you and we're all going to war or something. Like I I don't I it's hard to imagine and it's and it's hard to realize what the mental health impact will be. you know, because Yeah. Kyle (10:23) It i it is. And you know, I I think that too. It's like I you probably saw stuff about the robotic Olympics that were held in China. you Chris (10:31) Mm. Kyle (10:31) know, some were fully autonomous, some were not, right? you know, some, you know, they couldn't figure out how to stop after they crossed the finish line, ran into the wall, you know, versus other being, you know, it was still controlled by that human. And I and I think, you know, this kind of I kinda relate this to like some type of avatar that you are in, like, you know, you are in some game. And you know, you when you come out of it, you know, that avatar influences how we behave inside the game. And you know, just like what we've already talked about, if we can't, you know, are we exhibiting that behavior as we continue, even even though that game is kind of coming into the real life, real world. Yeah. Chris (11:14) It it's it's just crazy how literally all of these sci fi movies and whatever that we've done are are are turning real. Kyle (11:22) Yeah, when I saw that when I saw the the video, I'm like I had to dive deeper into it and like really figure out what was going on. But sure enough, it was human in a cage match against a robot controlled by a person, but yeah. Chris (11:35) I mean I I think what's just so interesting about this, honestly, in yeah, you d this is this is a pure rabbit hole. We can go into the conversation, but I Kyle (11:43) yeah. Chris (11:44) but you gotta be careful. I got we got we got we got important topics to talk about, especially Lindsay Clint's case. But I you know, it i it's it's it's something I think everybody has a concept of and therefore the emotional development or the emotional readiness we we kinda know it's coming and video games is a one way of saying like yeah, we're gonna have a whole room and we'll be you know, it'll be like you know, the holodeck on on on Star Trek where, you know, we we ha Kyle (12:13) All right. Chris (12:14) well we have cell phones from Star Trek and we are gonna have a holodeck and I can imagine we're playing games literally controlling stuff like Neil and I literally are going to be playing our ha fantasy football squads against real football teams and we make money showing that on T V. It's a new sport altogether, right? I don't know. It's it's crazy. Kyle (12:35) Yeah, I there there's so many different thing questions that could you know be brought up as part of this, you know, as like as far from a mental mental you know aspect. It's just yeah the questions that I I started reading about were just kind of almost endless. It's like, you know, you get down to the rabbit hole of like, okay, if you still had the concept of unlimited lives and respawns and stuff like that, you know, would you take the same risk? And you know, these are the kinds of questions that come out of it. And yeah, it's just And and there's been studies on this. There there's actually been studies done on this and like how games are impacting us from a society, you know, socially. But you know, and I and I kinda go back to COVID and you know, that's where a lot of you know kids suffered, you know, from being able from missing out on that social interaction and all they could do was text or call. Chris (13:24) I wonder if it would make us more impuls I wonder if it would make us more impulsive. Yeah. You know, yeah. Kyle (13:29) Well, I sh I I would think so. I mean, l we we've talked about this before, is like, you know, c just as something as a simple text, I mean, we get more brave. We are able to express ourselves, Chris (13:40) Absolutely. Kyle (13:41) you know, in ways that we wouldn't typically do if we were face to face with some person. We would say things without, you know, the worry of somebody's facial cues or anything like that. Right. Chris (13:51) Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Snap, quick, let's go, you know. Yeah. And and I Kyle (13:56) Right. And a robot right now has no facial expression, so you know, they can say whatever they want to and it just looks like a little line or whatever coming across their face. Chris (14:05) Yeah, we can get real utopian with it and I'm sure human beings would have an ethical governance inside us all that wouldn't allow us to go to a certain way. But I but I'm afra I'm fearful like it would it would catch us before before we we knew it. Last words to you, Neil, anything? Neil (14:22) No, it's just intriguing to see where where we go with this and what what kind of how how far down the people's rabbit hole they go down with some of these things 'cause it can lead to a lot of interesting situations. So Chris (14:35) Yeah. Neil (14:37) but Chris (14:37) Yeah, it's it's wild. Let's get to our stuff though before we run out of time on these really important topics. The the three seventy is not as important to me. the next two kinda are, but episode three seventy, let's talk about weed, cannabis, myths, busted, and the risks. Nobody talked about Kyle. You can't call it pot anymore. My clients have taught me if you call it pot, that makes you sound old. Did you know it's weed? Did you know that? Kyle (15:04) I did know that I did know that much. Yeah, it's not pot anymore. Yeah. Chris (15:07) Okay. Is marijuana actually safer than alcohol or have we simply started treating it that way? Provocative question number two was can something have legitimate medical benefits and still cause serious harm? And then third, has legalization changed our perception of marijuana faster than science has changed our understanding of it? And I think that third one is is really the biggest one in my mind so far as the way that We we we in many states we've legalized full on cannabis, but we've we've in many of the other states we've legalized Delta Nine, eight, delta ten, which is sort of a it's not synthetic weed, by the way. We went through a period in space of time where synthetic weed was on the streets and that was horrible. I literally more than once had clients turning psychotic. One dude was naked running down Main Street of the town that I was working in in Belmont, North Carolina. That's Stuff Kyle (16:09) jeez. Chris (16:10) was horrible, Kyle. It was scary. Because it wasn't really like weed, it was like synthetically induced chemical whatever. Wow. When we talk about Delta Nine and some of those other forms, that that's it's not that. So I I want to make that distinction for sure. But but yeah, miss and busted, you know, we we I I went through a f a freak out with my kids. And I'm like, my god, my kids are doing drugs, world is gonna end, they're not gonna you know, because in the eighties now of course, you know, who d who did the druggies back then? You know? Yeah, I just said the word druggies, right? It was the losers, the druggies. Well my my friend and colleague Allison, best substance abuse therapist I know, she stopped me and she's like, Chris, you gotta understand. When we were coming up like twenty percent of the kids smoked weed and whatever and it was it was the losers, the difficult people, the people that were struggling and eighty percent of us like wouldn't touch that to save our lives. now it's like flip flopped. You know, ten to twenty percent of the kids have not. And parents out there, you gotta understand, eighty percent of our kids these are loose numbers by the way, not scientific, but eighty percent of our kids have absolutely tried we even use it regularly. It's it is it is our perceptions have changed dramatically since it began. That sound fair guys? Kyle (17:36) I would say so. And and also the the potency has changed, you know, from Chris (17:42) let's talk about potency. Yeah. W what has happened to the potency? Kyle (17:50) Yeah, but I think you you think about back in the day, right? It was you used it to, you know, kind of get that good, calm feeling, you know, just kind of just kind of hang out. Now it's it's a whole lot more potent. I mean, d I mean, we've talked about it before you know on the last show, last month in inter interview, it's like it becomes so more potent and now it can possibly and there's probably studies that need to be done on the effects of that and the actual harm as we talked about in that what what what was that one sickness that can what was it called? Chris (18:29) Well that's what I was just gonna hit you with. Have you heard of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome? CHS. Cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. Right. Did we already talk about Kyle (18:37) Yeah, that's one we talked about. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (18:40) that? Neil (18:41) He he brought it up he brought it up and kinda Kyle (18:41) We did a little bit. Yeah. Neil (18:44) triggered it 'cause that was something he brought up in one of the last rabbit holes. Kyle (18:47) Yeah. So Chris (18:48) that's right. I was wondering what you were talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it be and and yeah. Kyle (18:52) Yeah, so that one so you think about all that. It's like the studies. I don't know if there's enough studies to, you know, that have been done that can translate, you know, the potency to, you know, that kind of effect. And but I I you it never Chris (19:04) Yeah, if that's why we don't know. Kyle (19:06) it never had developed until, you know, you know, the more regular use or more expanded use or, you know, we're seeing more people starting to use it. You know, obviously there's different interactions, you know, there could be some other drug interactions, some meta, you know. whether it's prescribed or non prescribed in, you know, drugs that they're that's being involved as well. I mean, I don't think there's enough studies that you know can attest that just the potency alone is the the reason why that that particular syndrome happens. Chris (19:33) Yeah, it it's gotta be something it's gotta be something about the potency and the chronic the the more regular use. I mean that combination it it it it has to be, I mean, I would think. I I just can't imagine what else it would be. 'Cause weed's been room forever. Kyle (19:48) Right, it could be. Well, I mean, you you just think of you know, the something as simple as the food additives and and you know, the interactions Chris (19:55) Well. Kyle (19:55) with that that could have happened that could be a part of it. Who knows, right? There's so many different that factors. Chris (19:58) Yeah, there's probably a lot of things. If if you don't know we're talking about, cannabis hyperemesis syndrome is totally this new thing. The genesis of this whole thing was was I said on the show when we did this episode 270 whatever one, w was was an ER nurse that that told me about this and I was like popping my head up. I'm like, what? And she's yeah, yeah, she's telling me about how people have to get showers and stuff. And I I looked it up and I'm like, dude, she was right on. And I I at the time had never heard of it. John, our our panelist, John Pope, he had this is reoccurring severe non- Nausea, repeated vomiting, abdominal pain, like terrible cramping. people are are are finding themselves going to the emergency room. And I I listen, I've been doing therapy work since 1995 in one forum or another, and I started out with substance abuse stuff, and now I've, you know, I I just I never heard of anything like this before. Everything I heard was when you're drinking a lot of alcohol and then you smoke pot, that's what we called it at the time, so far along. ago when I talked about it. Now I'll say weed, right? Drink a lot of alcohol, smoke a weed, and it terrifies me because that's a direct route to alcohol poisoning, which simply means your brain shuts down and the last part of it to shut down is your life support system. So don't smoke weed after you you you drank a bunch of alcohol I've always been told and taught people because it won't allow you to throw up the alcohol. Now This is so weird for reoccurrent severe nausea, terrible abdominal pain, and the only thing that seems to solve this is hot showers or baths th that that give relief. Quick numbers, 199,565 CHS involved emergency department visits were identified in the CDD surveillance data from January twenty-three to May twenty-six. That's only like three years. That's two hundred thousand cases of this. nationwide I suppose, but that's just it blows my mind. I this is not the way weed works. But evidently this is the way weed works. Kyle (22:14) I mean, you think of back in back in the day, you just you did this, you got the munchies, right? And you chilled out. Chris (22:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Kyle (22:21) And now now it's gone to a whole nother another level. And you know, again, whether it's you know, chronic use or you know, it's the mix of you know, prescribed or non prescribed drugs or you know, food additives or whatever the case may be that's enhancing this, who knows? I don't think I Chris (22:37) All right. Kyle (22:38) th I don't think there's enough studies done on it yet. Chris (22:40) Yeah, we d I it's definitely a new thing and and now we can get research done on weed and we've had some some changes in administration and and and law with that and also it's so it's kinda cool. Let's go through rusted, true, or it's complicated with myths. Let's fire down through these real quickly and we'll get to the Lindsay Clancy case. So, myth, weed helps nausea. What do you say? We just talked about it. I guess it's complicated, right? Kyle (23:08) Yes or no, maybe. Chris (23:10) Neil, is it is it is it is it is it busted true or it's complicated? Neil (23:16) I I think it goes back to I think from the initial conversations. There's there's people that take it because it helps them in their symptoms with nausea, but then we've also seen where it causes it, right? It's it's everyone's different. So I think it goes back to it's complicated. I do think and I was gonna state this earlier, is like I think the biggest issue with marijuana that's happened is the fact that it got legalized at the same time like vaping took on. So the idea is now that it's legal, now you have this this other part. It's like it's like it's like making beer illegal, and then at the same time that beer gets legalized. They give you hard liquor at the same time. You never had a chance to really see what Chris (23:48) Hmm. Neil (23:49) just regular marijuana does because it literally went from it's wide open to now we have this extra potent stuff because now we can do these things. So I think they kinda is giving marijuana a better app because you didn't really give it a chance for the natural marijuana to really see what it does because man came in and said, we're gonna do this 80% potency versus this other stuff. So Chris (24:13) Mm-hmm. Neil (24:13) Like I said, it's it goes back to you s I think you said it before, Chris, about like when they used to just make beer and wine it was one thing. Once men got involved and they started, you know, distilling it and now you have liquor and moonshine. It's like that's a whole nother well Chris (24:25) Yeah, it's a pack's a bigger pop. And actually you're you're reminding me something. I think that it might be the potency and the frequency. But is it but do they have like these flavors weed? Like, you know, the the the the pens and stuff? I mean are there like orange weed flavor and and and chocolate s mint weed flavor? Like I mean, is d have they done that? Kyle (24:45) I'm sure they do. Neil (24:47) I'm sure they do. They have all sorts of artificial stuff with that, which could cause an issue in itself, right? Kyle (24:52) Yeah. But but of course, I Chris (24:52) That would make honestly a lot say. Kyle (24:54) mean obviously in the vape form, I'm sure they do. I mean it's easier to make. Chris (24:58) Yeah. Okay, super quick now on these things. it's natural so it's safe. Kyle, busted or true or complicated? Kyle (25:08) I think to some degree true in qu in you know, small amounts. You know, everything's you have to take that with a grain of salt. That you you kinda have to put that in context a little bit. An excess amount, just like with anything, not necessarily safe. Chris (25:27) Yeah. Neil, busted or Neil (25:30) Poi poi poison ivy's natural. I ain't gonna smoke it. Chris (25:34) Exactly. Kyle (25:34) Yeah. Chris (25:36) It's it's it's not safe, y'all. It it definitely messes with your lungs all about it. soda cigarettes the cigars that I enjoy, you know, aren't aren't good. I mean why do why do we think we smoke a cigar and think it doesn't affect us? That's that's just nonsense. It it it does. You can't you can't become addicted to marijuana. Can we just bust that one please? I don't even want to ask you two of you. It's just busted. You can. The reason why people don't think you can get addicted is because you don't get withdrawal symptoms, but we've talked about that on the show. Marijuana is harmless because nobody overdoses like they do on opioids. Can we Neil (26:09) I feel like the CHS syndrome kind of proves that you can kind of overdose on it, so just different. Chris (26:14) Right. Right, right. Yeah, and and overdosing is a little bit something different. We we do You know, in in detox centers we kinda trick your body to think it still has alcohol and then we bring that medication down so that it it it takes some time for your body to adjust getting alcohol out of the system. That's what we do in detox facilities. Well weed stays in your system for like a month. Hell a ha a chronic w weed weeds weed user might have weed dirty screens for six months, seven months, you know. So i that's the only reason why it seems like you don't get addicted 'cause the the the levels come down in your system so so slowly. So do I want to do this panel question? question or practical question. I want to get to the Lindsay Knight's case. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna short this show out. I'm I'm sorry. I'm just gonna give the practical question. So on the show we we do practical questions and I'll I'll add one here to finish out this this review of episode three seventy. And the practical question is ha ha have you ever intentionally stopped using weed? First of all, that's one of the things we look for in the addiction world, right? but have you ever done that long enough to see what really changes in your body? Because when you regularly use this and you stop this and you gotta wait a long time before you get out of your body as well, sir, listening, you know, the practical questions is me talking to you through the screen, ma'am, right? Pay attention to what it does in your mood. Tay attention to what happens with your your your breathing and your health or your sleep and your sleep patterns. Because your body gets so used to having something in it and when you take it out, you know, if you're not paying attention, particularly with weed, because it takes so long you won't really get a comparative analysis. So have you ever done that, intentionally stopped, and then are you using marijuana because you enjoy it or because you've reached a point where you feel like, wait, something would be off. I I I'm just I wouldn't I'm concerned about sleep. I'm concerned about my mood. Man, this is this is the way that I chill out in the evenings. You know, we don't want to rely on that as a sign and of of a kind of concern. It's fine to do. We've our culture has come around, but just pay attention to your individual relationship with it. So let's get to episode 371. Lindsay Clancy, postpartum psychosis, mental illness, and clinical responsibility. The three questions that we talked about were how can a loving parent become so psychiatrically ill that she becomes dangerous to herself or her children? And I'm assuming you understand that we're reviewing the Lindsay Clancy trial that happened in the United States not too long ago in dramatic fashion and gosh, there's just so much that goes in with this. Second question, when does severe mental illness change how we should think about responsibility for a horrific act? That responsibility is a big piece of it. And third, what should families and mental health professionals recognize about postpartum illness before a crisis occurs? Where do we want to go with this? Neil Hur you heard our conversation, didn't get to jump into it a lot. I think I just want to give you the opportunity to kind of jump in with what you were burning with while John, Victoria, Casey and I talked about it and Kyle, you as well. I'm sure you know the case, you know, and have opinions about it. Why don't you guys fire off a little bit and just let your thoughts be, you know? Kyle (29:54) Go ahead, Neil. You listen to the show, so Neil (29:56) I was gonna see who I would I was gonna see who Chris put into the big screen first to see who who went. Chris (30:00) I had the button ready to click, I was waiting. Neil (30:04) Well, I think I brought this up after the show with with the panelists because I didn't want to chime in because it was a lot of stuff going on and I and I think the hard part about the Lindsay Clancy case is and this is the part I think people kind of maybe missed or didn't understand, like when you look at Lindsay Clancy's situation, you want to talk about someone who pretty much had everything she could need to deal with postpartum. She had it on her side. She literally had a husband who let her like stay home. They had nannies, they had her family support. Like she had everything, right? And she still got to this point that she did this horrible act. And so I think that's really important. And I think that's where the struggle is with a lot of the people who support her. Because sometimes they feel like they don't have the support like she had and that they're dealing with this and they're struggling with these pieces. So that's the one part that's kind of interesting. And I think that's it's kind of a scary fact when it comes to human nature that someone who does have all of these support, all these these things with it, can still get to that point where they do these horrific acts. Now, one thing I could even say coming back the other side of this one is because she had so much support that was trying to help her, did she really build up her own self-resilience to actually help her deal with it her on her own self? Once again, external forces, ex external support can only take you so far. You still have your own side to deal with. So there's a lot of like single moms or, you know, people that have to deal with, you know, their kids because the husband goes out and works and doesn't there. You know, the military wives that go out and the husbands leave for six, nine months. And they go through the purpose and they and they deal with it and they have the kids and goes through things. But the question is, did she have too much support because she never actually built up her own reliance on how do I handle myself? Not even bringing in the medication, which is a whole nother thing in itself too. The concoction of medication with from one psychiatrist to the next to the mental health visit or the mental health institute visit. Like there's all these things. Chris (31:56) Yeah, and her compliance and compliance. Neil (31:59) What do you mean that? Chris (32:02) taking the medications as prescribed and taking Neil (32:04) Right. Chris (32:04) them for an extended time or, you know, listening to the doctor working. Neil (32:06) There there are so many variables in this whole thing that you know there's a lot of stuff that you could lead him down this path. But once again, still goes back to the same idea as when she'd committed the act, and that's the good the biggest question. Was she really responsible for her for her actions? And that's that's the question, that's the issue. Now yeah, that that's the legal side. So so that's my take on this whole thing. It's a very interesting, long buildup to this whole situation that when it comes down to it. I don't know if, you know, there's there are two sides of the stories and everyone has their own pieces. So I'm just kinda it's it's a lot. Chris (32:44) It is super lot. two comments and then I'll throw it to you, Kyle. One, you gotta listen to the episode that we did, you know, three seventy one to hear therapists talking about this. I I really hope that this is one of our more listened to episodes. not this review. If you're listening to this review, listen to the show and I'm and I'm gonna highlight Casey on there because she actually is is she studied law. I I didn't realize that until that show. but Casey's like stupid. smart. stupid smart. And I've always known that, but so so her take on all that was really fascinating. And secondly, I'll just say, yeah, Neil, I mean the biggest thing I'd like to to make sure we dispel a little bit is the the myth of fear that exists around this for all of those reasons. And then I'll talk more about that. in a bit because the the fear, like, man, it's just I've seen it in therapy sessions and stuff. The fear is is is the thing that that worries me the most. People's fear about having this happen to them. Kyle, yeah, what are you thinking? What do you see? What it's a lot there, huh? Kyle (33:52) yeah, there it's a lot to unpack. And you know, I'm never I'm never ever gonna pretend to know what you know a woman is going through and all the emotions, especially especially all the hormonal changes that happen, you know, when they are pregnant, have kids and all that kind of stuff. you know, it it is a delicate situation because there is so much to this. you know, as Neil pointed out, the various variables that you know that you have to contend with. You know, the one thing I, you know, that really concerns me, and I and I think we talked about it last time, is the therapeutic type of responsibility that needs to be account, you know, need to be held accountable for it, you know, versus you know, just throwing a drug at it, treating this symptom or that symptom, and you know, now you get a concoction, as Neil said, you know, that could exasperate the problem. And you know, that that's somewhat somewhat concerning if you know you know that that could those kinds of things can happen. You know, the support factors it obviously were there, so it seems, I don't say. it just you know, how it got to that point, I don't think we'll ever know because we're never in her mind. and you know, whether or not, you know, she's telling the therapist the truth or everything that you know should have been said, you know, that's still to be questioned. you'll we'll never know that those those true answers. But I do think it's it's definitely important that if you are struggling, you do need to seek help. You do need to get that support system around you. And, you know, let's find that let's we don't have to have that same situation again. I mean, I know everybody, as Neil said, is is going through different strifes in in their lives. you know, some people don't have their support system, some people do, some people can't, know. And it it just varies and I I This kind of goes back to, you know, one of the consistent things we always talk about is having a connection with somebody and building that relationship so that you can have an outlet to talk with. You know, whether whether or not it's a therapist or, you know, just at least some type of friend in order to express yours. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Chris (36:01) Even nine eight eight. Nine eight eight is a phone number. Right. Kyle (36:06) There's somebody always there. Chris (36:08) You know what's what's interesting that that I don't think has gotten talked about enough and I thought about since we did the show is our panel, we didn't even focus on what do we do, 'cause of course it's an hour show. I mean we could do ten shows on this. Literally. But there's a There's a little bit of a myth out there that I think people believe, hey, she said she did it. She's responsible and accountable for what she did, even though she had mental health crisis and emergency. So lock her up. corp capital punishment. Whatever you think should happen when somebody completes murder. That's not what happens, guys. That is not what we as a society do. I think the the bigger qu question for societies around the world. And if you live in other countries, I'd really be curious for you to contact us. How do you handle this in your country? Because in our country, oftentimes people don't just sit in jail. They go to forensic psych institutions. Back in the day when we had insane asylums, we used that word insane. That's why we still have innocent or guilty wha what are the terms? innocent and insane designation. My my brain's freezing on what we call it. Neil (37:27) sentence until proven guilty, something like that. Chris (37:29) No I find you guilty by reasons of insanity or I find you innocent by reasons of insanity or incompetent to stand trial. We still use legally the word insanity as my main point. And back in the fifties and the forties and the thirties we had literally and called them insane asylums because we just locked people away. And we got away from that. At least in the States. And we we we said we're not gonna pay for that expensive care for them to stay in this facility for the rest of their life because we're concerned about their safety. Really, really sick people we're talking about too, by the way. you know, s schizophrenia people that are acting out, dual diagnosis, really struggling, high, high, high acute level of care needs. We said we're gonna send them in the community, but we're gonna wrap support around them. And this is crucial. We took that away. We We now have people that are really mentally ill and And are just floating around us. And I think I'm I'm actually surprised this hasn't happened a lot. You know, when you were talking, Neil, I know there was a a senator in I I think Virginia, maybe five, ten years ago, whose son had severe and persistently mental illness. That's what we call S PMI. And this this this S PMI kid ended up doing a a suicide, a murder an attempted murder and suicide. He was a senator. I mean the guy had resources, right? So what do we do with these folks? That's number one, the center, number two. Number three, Kyle (39:05) Thank you. Chris (39:07) this is even more complicated because this isn't somebody that is severe and persistently mentally ill. That is somebody that manifests their illness somewhere around the age of 18, 19, 22 years old. Postpartum psychosis, postpartum depression. Postpartum anxiety doesn't just come and go from one day into the next, like Casey talked about. You're psychotic, you're generally psychotic. You can appear to have all your marbles perfectly straight, by the way. It's another factor. But at some point that goes away. Lindsay will be, in my willing to bet, fully normal at some point. We have capacity to To get our hormone structures healed and growth. So wow, what do we do? Put her away for the rest of her life when she's gonna turn normal or just let her go back out because she's normal now and she's not gonna do this again? Like no, no, no. It's very complicated, right? I don't know. I just okay, I I feel like I just unloaded a lot. Did that all come out make sense or Yeah? Kyle (40:18) It did. It did. It did. I mean, i in other words, I mean, you know, in in a nutshell, I mean, just because she's normal now doesn't necessarily mean she needs to stop the help. We need to continue down you know, to continue to help so that she does stay, you know, like on I guess you'd say I'm it's kind of tricky to use the word normal path, but you know. Yeah. Chris (40:39) Well, help with accountability though. I mean accountability's gotta be there. Three little kids are dead. That you know Kyle (40:44) Yeah. Agree. Chris (40:46) then many people are psychotic or postpartum or having a rough day or whatever and and I don't mean to minimize and marginalize this, but I mean they don't they don't do a triple murder. So again, the society question, what do we do then? What do we do with this person? Kyle (41:00) Yeah. And and and look, I have very, very valid concerns, you know, of copycats, right? You know, and and using using that as an out and when it may or may not necessarily be the case. Chris (41:19) You know, I haven't thought about that, Kyle. Copycat events are really more like, hey, this dude this dude did a bomb and this dude got on T V and I wanna get on T V and maybe I believe the same thing he believes. So I'm I'll do it. And they go and do it. I feel like this is a little different. I haven't really thought about the copycat element. You th you say no, Neil? Okay, you get go, buddy. Neil (41:39) Nope. A hundred percent. Once once you get exposed to something like this and because of the way the media sensationalizes it, it puts it in the it puts it in people's brain. I have a book on history of murder and literally the idea is there's a lot of people that are pretty normal and then once someone gets an idea because someone goes above and beyond those things, because of the way it's sensationalized in the media in it, like I said, if you have a someone who's really engrossed in this thing, it can become this fantasy that I'm can do this too, or it becomes ac acceptable. So in this case, because of how much was presented, there is the risk to me that there are probably parents or moms specifically, because we're talking about Lindsay Clancy, not not that crazy guy that killed his wife and two kids from a couple years ago, right? That put him in the barrels, right? Chris (42:23) Yeah, there's a lot of examples of this, yeah. Neil (42:25) There is that situation that this could open up a can of worms because you could have a lot of, you know, moms dealing with postpartum and then If they're not getting sleep and they're not getting the help, this could be ingrained to their brain. That this can lead to probably the there is a possibility of having copycat people because now well she did it. And once again, there's the whole sympathy. I'm Lindsay. I'm Lindsay too. Like that was the part that really Chris (42:49) Yeah. Neil (42:49) kind of disturbed me that all these women were I know what they were trying to go for, but it's also very disconcerting when you look at like Chris (42:57) Mm. Neil (42:58) it's empathy overload. It's I think something I saw was like toxic toxic empathy. Is what I heard as a term at one point. Chris (43:03) Jesus these phrases we create are enough memes. Neil (43:07) Well, I d there was there was this YouTube creator that actually had a nanny and she posted a video about her her relating to N Lindsey Clancy. He fired her because he's like, I don't want my this lady Chris (43:17) Hm. Out of fear. Neil (43:19) who's sympathizing with this other person who did this to be like, like, I can't have this in my house, right? I gotta protect my kids. Chris (43:25) Yeah, I don't I don't begrudge any of that, Neil. I think I think my hedge is the copycat reality. Like you we're we're we're I'm I'm on a science based brain and neurology level thinking you will not become psychotic in a copycat manner. I wanna be clear about that. That is not the way psychosis works. That is not the way postpartum experiences work. It is it is a biological system in your body and people are already fearful about like I I don't want to get pregnant and and I I really want to blow up these these fears because you're not gonna have copycat psychosis. That's just crazy talk. That that's not a thing. What you're talking about, Neil, Neil (44:13) No, but you have copycat murders. Chris (44:15) does make sense. If you happen to become psychotic And you hear the story, then then I can see yeah, I hadn't really thought about it that way. But you're not gonna get psychotic 'cause you heard this story. That's not the case. Neil (44:32) No, but but you but you could be in the wrong frame of mind, get sucked into this case and then but once again, through a hormone shift, through depression, through whatever it is, whatever you wash, whatever you do, it can lead you down that path. No, it's not gonna give you a mental health illness. But if you're not in a good space and you engross yourself with this over and over again, it leads down that path. It goes back to the anytime someone does something that goes against human nature, there you see a a path that leads them down this down this trail, right? You know, anything you do against other person that against their will, those types of things, a lot of the history comes back. They start small and it goes from there. If someone's dealing with issues and they get sucked into this case, this could be that excuse for them to do the same thing because either they need the attention because they want this to happen, or it becomes justified because, well, she didn't got away with it. Chris (45:23) Now there's the there's the real hitch and that was a a concern, Kyle, that Casey really was was kinda sticking on and is like, look, you you you you you y I mean you gotta you gotta have consequences. I you know. but at the same time we Kyle (45:38) Sure. and there's no test for this, right? There's no test to to f to say that yes, y you're Chris (45:45) No. Yeah. Kyle (45:46) diagnosed with this or a bat. Chris (45:48) Yeah, I we made that clear in the show too when we were talking. You know, we we don't we don't have very good predictive measures. I mean I would love to think that I can interview somebody, I can have them in therapy and begin to have some predictive measure, some tools to use, some insight, some questions to ask, some data points to get that will help me identify the next school shooter, the next bomb maker, the next murder event. And And we we don't. It's it's it's not a thing. We just don't have that predictive measure. And I would love to make the point loudly that this is rare. This is very, very rare. I can't tell you how many women are terrified to have babies now. And I've I mean I've had this conversation in my therapy office, which I'm in, by the way. I'm usually home these days. This is my actual office, you know. they sit right there and we talk and There there's us there's so much fear. And and there just needs to not be the fear. I'm aware of the time. We need to r wind out of here. Kyle and Neil, last thoughts. Kyle (47:06) Very complicated. Chris (47:08) Yeah. Neil (47:10) The the other question I looked up after the fact is who who did the prose who does the who did defence bring in to s say that she was had a psychosis and because the the prosecutor brought in something that says she didn't. So it goes back to that question of like once again it's really hard to say what's going on and then the question goes back to once again the accountability. I think she should be held accountable for what happened. I don't think she was in that psychotic state. Chris (47:33) Wait, w wait, are you saying it's hard to discern if she was psychotic or not? Neil (47:37) Yeah from because obviously you had f like multiple professionals in this trial that said some said she had postmodern psychosis and then other ones that said she didn't. So then how do you actually answer that? Because there was a defense there was someone on the prosecution that said she didn't have it, and the defense brought in their people that said she did. So it's this whole situation about like because you're dealing with the mental state and everything going on, and that's Chris (48:00) Which which which is crazy. The woman the woman was psychotic. I mean it's I c I can tell. I feel like I can go out and live. Neil (48:05) Casey says she wasn't. Casey says she wasn't, remember? She says she did not Casey said specifically on I don't know if it's after, but she she was the from her professional opinion, she did not have postpartum psychosis based on her expertise, is what Casey said. Chris (48:19) The I'd have to play that back and maybe Casey and I would differ on that. I mean I I I I think that what what we're talking about is how does psychosis work and and and and that that means that you could be very lucid when you're psychotic. You can plan things when you're psychotic. You can as a matter of fact, people can be listening and hearing voices. One of the things we look for for people in psych units or in therapy offices when you just sort of train off and you look sort of preoccupied, that can be a sign that you're literally hearing voices, but you go to the grocery store and nobody in the grocery store knows that you are. So I I I I think Casey knows that she was psychotic and she had command style voices that doesn't just like it's not that you're psychotic one minute and and and the next not. It's it's that you are but that that that that experience goes in and and out through days and weeks and months. So I'd I'll have to listen to it back and see what she she was thinking. Neil (49:22) So so that goes back once again. That's that weird thing where you have the experts coming up with multiple opinions from what they brought in, even from you and Casey, who are probably, you know, outside of John Pope, you guys are probably one of the smarter ones I know outside of the these pieces. So it's once again it's and that's that's the realm I think of this whole situation. So Chris (49:39) Well, and specifically with the Kyle (49:40) Yeah and and Chris (49:40) postpartum element because remember also this might be what you're thinking about. I we can't diagnose it. There's no diagnostic code for this. So so I yeah, she had psychotic experience, but I can't put it in a diagnosis because we don't lit we literally don't have it. So in that regard it doesn't even exist. But that's crazy. Kyle (50:01) But there sh still should be some accountability. Lives are taken. Chris (50:05) Right. It's yeah, yeah. Brutal. All right, to wrap up this episode, listen, you gotta l you gotta listen to the episode with a therapist talking about it. It was a great conversation. Truly, truly. I I really want to tell all your friends I think we we need to to to deal with this issue as a society and around the world. The panel question that we talked about, if you believe Lindsay Clancy was severely mentally ill, what would you need to know to decide whether she should still be held climin criminally responsible for killing her children? And we kind of discussed it. Casey kind of took the lead on that, but we we discussed it. The practical question that I have for you, which is a an element of our our individual shows, is that if if someone's behavior suddenly seems bizarre or paranoid, disconnected, like I said, preoccupied, radically unlike that person, would you recognize that as potentially requiring emergency psychiatric attention? if you see something, say something, kind of thing? Pay pay pay attention. you listening to the show, sir, you know. Pay attention to your wife. It it's it's scary and hard conversations, but we've we've we've got to have them. important stuff. Okay. Episode three seventy two. We said, Who's afraid of ice? question mark. Deportation, anxiety, and the mental health impact on immigration. I've actually had people coming to me talking to me about this when friends listening and stuff. It it triggered some discussion. The three questions, how do you manage anxiety when the thing you're afraid of could actually happen? Two, what happens to a family when children begin worrying that a parent might not come home? And three, where is the line between reasonable preparation and living your life in hyper vigilance? Hypervigilance is I'm terrified something's gonna come get me or take me and this type of thing. It's a sticky position, particularly if you are in this country past your work visa or against the green card. Or that you just walked across the river and didn't say hello to anybody or w whatever form you're here. This is kinda anxiety provoking just by the nature of that reality that you know I think generally people know if they're not lawful. But but how how how do you deal with anxiety when you can actually have happen to you what you're anxious about? That's we talked more about the anxiety element and management of that and how that how that goes as as opposed to the political edge of things. But just like the V four, where do you guys line land? Neil, you didn't get to talk that much. Kyle, what's Kyle (52:48) Yep. Sure. Chris (52:49) your thoughts about this? Either either of you, both of you. Kyle (52:52) Well from the anxiety piece, you know. Chris (52:54) he's jumping on it, Neil. You slow this one. Kyle (52:59) You know, you you kind of think of like you from the anxiety piece, you know that you're doing something that is not correct. Okay. And you can almost you kinda use the analogy, you're driving a car without a license. Okay. Every time you get in that car, there's possibility Chris (53:16) Driving dirty. Kyle (53:17) you get yeah, you get speeding ticket, you get caught in a wreck or whatever the case may be, you know, there's the law that's gonna be right there with you. Same same kind of concept, a little bit different, right? But just conceptually the same. It's like you're you you visa's gone, green card is gone, you you know, again, walk across the river, whatever the case may be, you're always going to be looking over your shoulder. You're gonna be anxious about the what ifs. You're always gonna be wondering about the what ifs. What if I go in this store and nothing that that they done, but somebody else did that created the situation that then caused them to be become you know, now found out, okay, yes, hey, your visa's expired or whatever the case may be. You're not supposed to be here. Well, now you're in the system, guess what? Same conceptually kind of the same thing is to no fault of their own. So there always there's always going to be anxiety no matter what you do, if that's truly the case, in my opinion. Chris (54:16) Right. Neil I see that halfcock smile, brother. You got the floor. Neil (54:21) I was so I was thinking of a story that this one influencer said and he talked about how he was always told if he turned the inside light on in his car he'd get pulled over 'cause that's what his dad told him. And then the joke was he was driving somewhere as he was older and he turned the light on and yeah, he did get pulled over and he thought it was because of the light. But it's just like what are people telling people, right? What what is it about if you go do this and all and there's this whole big fear and everything happens, like, my gosh, if you if you go to Home Depot you're gonna get deported. If you go to You know, this Mexican, you're gonna get poor and it's like there's this environment that happens to where the people you're around, the community you're around, the the fear escalates itself. It's it's it's the echo chambers that we create in our own society, in our own communities that I think causes a lot of this extra anxiety because I mean it was brought up on the show. There are people that are legally here and they have anxiety. Like like what do you Chris (55:16) yeah. Neil (55:17) What what are Chris (55:17) yeah. Neil (55:18) what are you worried about? Like why would you be worried? Like I said, if you have a valid driver's license and you're driving down the road, you should have no fear unless you're going a hundred miles over the speed limit, right? So what is it about what they're what they're experiencing that is causing this fear? What what is that? And and to me it becomes an irrational fear because there is no concern in their case, because if they are here illegally, or if they are here legally Worst case, you show them your license and you and you're fine, right? That that's the worst case. But everything goes out that if you're here because you look like a certain person, a certain way, everything's gonna happen, right? All the problems are gonna happen, right? Chris (56:02) There's cognitive bias, Neil. And and and there's there's I mean th the reality of it is these are psychological events for these people. And the citizens and non citizens of the United States alike. And they're real psychological events. We cannot deny that. It it's it's it's similar, as I heard you talking there, it's it's similar to at least particularly in the South, I think nationwide, black folks regularly and routinely teach their children how to handle a routine traffic stop because there's this belief. There's a perception, there's a cognitive bias on the part of the criminal. on the part of the victim, on the part of the police officers. you know, and and fear goes into that. People do get shot. These are situations where people are getting shot. And you can make an argument of all sorts of political measures. ICE isn't trained properly. Well, they've grabbed a lot of new ICE workers because they needed that. You can make a argument about how awesome it is if it's true that we have zero. I heard this recently. I'm dying to know if it's true. I just you know you can't know what you believe anymore because with what's true. Zero crossings, border crossings in the southern border since Trump's been in office. If that's true fantastic man, that's awesome. However, I gotta wonder if there's like legitimate people that need asylum. We have zero asylum seekers, so that means people that their government's killing them we've not helped. I don't know, is that good? But you know, I said on the show, good good fences make for good neighbors and I think that's so true. There's Neil (57:50) Well the well the question is that if we have zero illegals crossing, does that free up the court systems to now handle the legitimate asylum people, right? That's that's Chris (58:00) Right. Neil (58:00) part of the issue that happened. Now, one thing I would say across the board because you made me think about something and then I forgot because you then you went down this path and I can't crap. I can't remember. If I come back to me, I'll I'll remember it. but yeah, I think I think that's great that the other part too, when it comes to the the anxiety, the cognitive bias, right? Now here's the other part to it, you know, the victims, the people who are not doing something wrong, but they're treated like a criminal because of the criminals, right? Now here's the other side of that. What about the people trying to enforce the laws that now have anxiety because they're worried the people they're trying to detain are now gonna overreact and it causes an issue? So now what you've done across the board, you've heightened Chris (58:39) Yeah. Neil (58:41) the you've heightened the stress and nerves of both sides of the people that are involved in this situation. Chris (58:47) Anecdotally I can tell you, Neil, I have two people that work for the department and are highly much more anxious and not happy at the way this culture and environment is right now. You take that for what you want. They're struggling. Neil (59:01) I mean it so just yeah, just imagine Chris Christoph, every time you came to your office, you were worried that you were gonna have a mob of people protesting you every time you came into the office. Chris (59:11) It's impossible. It's impossible. Neil (59:14) Kyle, that that router or switch you put in, you're gonna have a group of people protesting because it was made by some company that does something horrible. I don't know, right? It's the expectation to have an ICE agent come in or a law enforcement come in because law enforcement isn't as bad now as it was because now all the all the anxiety is focused on the ice agents. But to ex Chris (59:34) I know, right? Neil (59:35) to expect this, and then I always thought it was funny like be like, well it's unfair that you sh ICE agents shouldn't wear a face mask. Well we've seen across the board that as soon as someone on the other side of a spectrum comes in into play, you are doxxed immediately. Your picture's out Kyle (59:49) Okay. Neil (59:50) there and everyone tells you about it. You know, going back to Lindsey Clancy, the one lone juror. No sooner did this happen, his name and and family information got out there immediately. How are you gonna war do your work if you're afraid that now your name's out there and your family's now affected by this? Chris (1:00:07) You know, I we don't need masks and we need body cameras in my view as well, by the way. it's amazing that we still don't have body cameras for these instances. We just had another one in Texas, I guess, supposedly, and then and actually another one in Pennsylvania or somewhere. I mean, it's just it's happening too commonly and and that that i it it just it makes me sad, Neil, because I really I mean I I I I am so honored to work in my my work with our men and women, both in the military, I'm really honored with that, and then behind the blue our our men and women in the law enforcement. I get I get special I don't know honor feelings of of working with our men and women in either of those venues and it's sad because the these people really want to serve us. Kyle (1:01:00) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:01:01) That's the that's why they exist to serve the population. And and we get this such back and forth. I mean people saying, defund the police. Thankfully that's gone and done with, I think, or you know, we don't need police don't have guns or you know, ICE should just go home and abolish and I no, man, like we have these things for a reason and and societies need them around the world. But we but it matters how we do it. It matters how we interact. And these are powerful emotional interactions. You know, one of the things we haven't talked about this is the classic police co or I'm sorry, prison guard study. Kyle, I'm sure you've heard of the prison guard study. Kyle (1:01:48) Probably. Chris (1:01:49) Yeah, where they prison they took like fifty people, twenty five were guards, twenty five were criminals. Well they had to pull they had to close the shut the study down because Criminals were acting like criminals, normal Joes and Janes that were out there. Kyle (1:02:01) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:02:02) And guards were acting like mean people. They had to shut it down. It was way too intense. I and that's what we see sort of as a microcosm in in society. And this whole ice thing is just just remember, they want to serve us, guys. We need to help serve us. Kyle (1:02:20) And you know, it it's amazing to me. It's like and I guess this is, you know, just the way I was brought up, but you know, very respectful to law enforcement. You know, if I did something wrong, look, I did it. I'm sorry, you know, and and we seem to have gotten away even from something as simple as a simple traffic stop. You know, hey, you ran a stop sign and you want to you know create a scene, you want to you know, make the situation worse than what it really really is. And it's that authority figure type of thing that I think that we some some people, I'm not gonna say everyone, I some folks don't respect. And you know, that that's Chris (1:03:00) Spec authority, yeah. Kyle (1:03:01) just not that's not how I was raised. And hey, you're raised to respect them. And you know, I tell when I'm walking to the Panthers game, you know, there's many cops, there many policemen But men and women out there trying, you know, trying to direct traffic. And I, you know, whether they're getting paid or not, you know, to be a part of those Panthers game, I'll just tell them thank you for your service. I don't think they hear it enough. Chris (1:03:25) They definitely don't, but we also gotta recognize Kyle, here's three three three middle aged white men talking about this. They ain't no black folk in this conversation. They ain't they ain't no minorities from Haiti, hate, you know, or wherever, hate whatever. They they're th you know, it it's a powerful emotional reality when you have difference and fear in in that system. And and that's because of confirmation bias and some some some powerful psychological realities, it it changes that game. You know. I I'm I'm gonna teach my son how to be respectful too, but then he turns into a teenager and I mean he Kyle (1:04:05) Right. Chris (1:04:05) he does what he does. Yeah. That's the police, you know, and all this you know, mama, you know, all this bravado, even from just teenage, you know, normal West Virginia white teenage boys, you know. yeah. Neil (1:04:16) And that goes back to Kyle's statement. As a society, we just don't really respect authority like we used to, you know. I Chris (1:04:22) Mm-hmm. Neil (1:04:23) understand there's accountability that has to be had. We had that conversation Lindsay Clancy. But the problem is the accountability for the law enforcement that abused the power is now causing problem for those trying to do their job. Right? Chris (1:04:36) It's total big factor too. Neil (1:04:37) That's part of that part. Now I just saw something. There were twenty-one f shootings from federal immigration enforcement officers. How many arrests have there been? Hundreds of thousands? Chris (1:04:47) Okay. they've they've they've scooped a lot. Neil (1:04:50) Twenty-one shootings out of a hundred hundreds of thousands of of things. Like this is less likely than going back to like the shark attacks. Like it's not a pandemic. It is not something that the federal enforcement officers are going out and shooting everyone they're doing. Are we like, and that's the part that people have to understand. There's a lot of stuff that goes through a lot of can detainments that go through it without a problem. The pro the issue Chris (1:05:13) Heh. Neil (1:05:14) is is you talked about body cam, right? The one thing that happened in Texas. The guy forgot to wear his body cam, which is like, okay, now he needs to be reprimanded because you have to have that on him. Chris (1:05:22) Did he forget? Neil (1:05:23) That's what it said. He said he for he forgot to put it on that day or something. Chris (1:05:26) Oops. Kyle (1:05:28) Yep. Neil (1:05:28) But so he needs to be reprimanded because you have to have that. Now, once again, in today's society, there's Chris (1:05:32) Can't do that. Neil (1:05:33) cameras everywhere. So it's like you almost don't need it. Chris (1:05:35) If I drove my car and got into a wreck without my license, Neil, they're coming for me. Neil (1:05:40) Right. But so and so I think but I think that's the part you have to understand. Like when it comes to all of these things, you know, when there's a plane crash, everyone talks about how unsafe planes are. When there's thousands of plane f planes that have take off every day with no problems. Same thing with the federal immigration. There's been twenty one people shot out of the hundreds of thousands arrest. You're looking at a very small percentage and it's just one of those things. And like there was another case where two teenagers were gonna go follow their things in the Marines and they got Pepper spray to beat and like my question is when they were stopped by the ice, how did they act? Did they say, no, sir, here's my office, we're going to the Marines, you having a good day? Blah blah or were they, Chris (1:06:20) Yeah. Neil (1:06:20) I'm not showing my stuff, you know I have my constitutional right, I don't have to tell you anything. Chris (1:06:25) That's actually true, but doesn't help the situation. Neil (1:06:29) Once again, it's wr right or wrong, there's still a process, right? Kyle (1:06:32) And I I wonder how much that that number goes down if you think about, you know, the people that were interfered with the process that weren't even a part of the process originally. So that weren't even being targeted by buys. Chris (1:06:45) Yeah. Yeah, I I'm aware of the time and I gotta I gotta I gotta take us out of here and what but but I wanna mention the kids. We we d we we forgot to talk about the kids today Kyle (1:06:54) Yep, yeah. Chris (1:06:54) in in the review. they're carrying a lot more tr gosh, there's so much with the kids. You know, I mean they're they're they don't even understand kind of what's happening and all the fear that kinda goes on and I told the story of Sebastian in the show when we did this I well I guess this was actually just last week. you know, the the school performance, the the fear that the kids had, the the don't participate in society and these are and these are American citizen kids that have maybe an illegal mom here or an illegal a cousin here. Their parents are legal, they're legally here but their cousins are illegal and the kids are like living with all of this fear and all of the stuff around and I it it it tore this cute little kid. You you listen to the regular show when we talked about it last week. I talked about Sebastian, my little neighborhood buddy. I I really genuinely I didn't say this last week, but Bang, I really genuinely like that kid. He was a cute, spunky, smart little, fast running little kid. I mean, to watch my son Adam and him r try to run a relay race, man, they were so sharp and quick, both of Fastest little kids I know. And man he just started going, Kyle, he this kid just went off the cliff, cursing at a young age and not doing the school stuff and just angry. young little middle schooler and his his dad was was deported. big topic, big topics that we have here today. the the panel question that we talked about is how do you treat anxiety when the thing your client is afraid of is actually possible. Well again, we we we talked a little bit more, I feel like, on the show about the anxiety elements and the mental health elements and feel like today we were a little bit more policy laden than that, but that's fine. the practical question is are your children absorbing anxiety from the conversations? They don't completely understand, sir. Be careful about that, mom. they they they're hearing all of this, and if you have a family system that's embroiled with this, or or you know, minority families of all sorts, the kids are carrying a lot in their heart, and and that kind of breaks my heart a little bit. so There is in tow the month in review. these were good shows, and I think this was a pretty good review show for for the things that we're we're dealing with. I mean refer these to a friend. These are these are conversations we need to be having around the world, not just the states. And again, I'll remind you if you have thoughts and you're in another country Please contact at through a therapist eyes dot com is a great way to share that with us. It's a direct way. I look at my email all day long. Getting better at responding to the YouTube responses and things that we've had, but that that directs actually both Neil and I directly at the same time. I if you're in another country, I really want to hear what you you have to say about these these topics. Because this is the human emotional experience which We endeavor to figure out together. It's not just a line, guys, ladies. Let's do this together. Particularly if you're in another country, I would love to learn from you. Please let us know. Alright, we're gonna fire up again next week. I think we may actually have Casey next week, or maybe not. She's an every other week girl and this might have been her on week, but it's the month in review, so hard topics. I hope that you're li okay having listened to this. Take care of yourselves. Nine eight eight is always a phone number that you can use if if needed. thanks for hanging with us a couple minutes longer than we normally go today. We'll see you next week. Stay well.