In Episode 377 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, “Loving Someone With Addiction: When Does Helping Become Enabling?”, we tackle one of the most agonizing dilemmas families face: how to offer meaningful support without inadvertently shielding a loved one from the natural consequences of their substance use. Exploring the clinical distinctions between healthy boundaries, consequences, and control, this episode breaks down why the same supportive action can foster recovery in one context while fueling active addiction in another.
We look at how these dynamics differ when setting limits with an addicted spouse versus a child across different life stages, challenge the dangerous myth that someone must “hit rock bottom” to recover, and introduce evidence-based frameworks like CRAFT (Community Reinforcement and Family Training) and Motivational Interviewing. If you’ve felt torn between the fear of enabling and the guilt of abandonment, tune in for compassionate, actionable guidance on protecting your own emotional well-being while maintaining unconditional love and connection.
Tune in to see When Helping Becomes Enabling Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How do you know when your attempts to help someone with addiction are actually making the problem worse?
- Is there a difference between setting boundaries with an addicted spouse and setting boundaries with your own child?
- Can you love someone unconditionally while refusing to protect them from the consequences of their addiction?
Links referenced during the show:
CRAFT and Rates of Treatment Entry — Systematic Review (2020)
CRAFT Versus Al-Anon/Nar-Anon Facilitation — Randomized Trial (2017)
SAMHSA — Helping Families Cope With Substance Use Disorders
- Chapter 5 — Share your life with your wife, but your wife cannot be your life.
- Chapter 17 — Learn a concept called “Intentional Trust.”
- Chapter 24 — Your relationship patterns were created long before you met your partner.
- Chapter 44 — Learn how to say no so you can say yes.
- 1.5 — We will cope with feelings productively or destructively. Addiction as an attempt to regulate difficult emotional experiences.
- 1.9 — To give is good, but to over-give can be destructive. Particularly relevant to enabling.
- 1.24 — Boundaries are important markers between others and us. Probably the most important chapter for this episode.
- 1.29 — Codependence. An opportunity to distinguish genuine dysfunctional relationship patterns from normal caregiving.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Episode #377 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Two All right, I think that I have hit all the buttons, done all the things that Neil usually does on the background. He's not able to be with us, so please bear with me if we had some weird timing in the beginning there. But you are finding us on October the 22nd of 2026. This is through a therapistize. We usually start about 615, 630 on Thursdays. And we are talking about an interesting topic tonight that has to do with addiction. We haven't had a good substance abuse show for a little while. And so this is episode 377, Loving Someone with Addiction. When does helping become enabling? now there's a lot of things that go with this topic, and we're going to be talking a little bit about marriage for sure, because we think about our spouses in marriage. And but we also need to think about our kids because families will have children. And you may be a parent of somebody who you wonder about addiction or substance abuse issues, or certainly panicked and struggling with. A spouse. We're going talk about both of those in a different kind of a slant this week because we usually think about it in way of enabling and having tough love and these types of things, but we want to mix in a little bit of the, what about helping them and how do you and what's the difference, right? So we'd like to have three reflective questions that we do for the show to make you help you to think about as we go along. Number one would be how do you know in attempts to help someone? With addiction are actually making the problem worse. Believe me, that happens. And two, is there a difference between setting boundaries with an addicted spouse when setting boundaries with your own child? And I think that is going to be a fascinating conversation piece. Thirdly, can you love someone unconditionally? Big word. Can you love someone unconditionally while refusing to protect them from the consequences of their addiction? So Good evening, good morning, good afternoon. Depending upon when you're finding us, this is, as I said, through a therapistime your host, I guess is what they call me, Chris. And we have only Casey with us this evening. How are you, ma'am? Kasie (02:29) I'm doing well, ready to get started on this fascinating topic. Chris (02:33) Do you have a good week at work? Do you been busy? Kasie (02:35) Yeah, great week. I have wonderful, wonderful people that I work with and Chris (02:39) Are you meet like me and and loving the weather? Kasie (02:43) Yeah, I do. Like this is my jam. Fall is my season. It's my best clothes. It's everything. So I love fall. It's my best clothes. Chris (02:49) It's my best clothes. I love that. That's good. So this is where you get insights for in your home or in your car, knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way. Look, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk openly and honestly about what actually helps. So we provide you some quality information about mental health and substance abuse, hopefully entertain you a little bit along the way. but we we ask that you do your job. Your job is to click, subscribe, do all those things. Our YouTube subscriptions are getting up a little bit. We're about halfway there. We need to be at a thousand. We actually had like eight Casey this last week or last last month or so. Yeah, Kasie (03:28) Wow, that's exciting. Chris (03:31) it's pretty cool. Some people joining. So please tell somebody about this show. If you know somebody struggling with a spouse, share this. You can copy the link. You can share it. Send it directly to them. They're more likely to listen. They're more likely to scribe. And hopefully seriously they get a little bit of help. Five stars, all that kind of stuff. Contact it through therapistguys.com. I like to say that this is the human emotional experience which we endeavor to figure out together. It's not just a line, it's what we do. Casey, I always like to qualify when we ever we talk about substance abuse, right? I don't think that you and by also by the way, usually we have John with us. He is under the weather this week. And Victoria, we don't know where she's doing. She's in Kid World, she's in apartment moving land, she's just got a crap ton stuff going on. And Neil told me what he was doing, but I forget. Love you, Neil, mean it, but I forget where he's at. I like to qualify, like I don't think Victoria and you are really like substance abuse therapists as self identified. Is that is that still a is that kind of a true statement? Kasie (04:33) Yeah, I mean I definitely don't hold any credentials that would qualify me as a substance abuse therapist. I see it a lot in my office. I think that the majority of the time that I'm working with someone that has an addiction or a use, a qualified use disorder, I see it emerge in my office as a result of talking for multiple sessions. So it's never really the primary reason that a person comes to see me. Chris (05:06) Mm-hmm. Yeah, gotcha. Kasie (05:07) I don't market myself as such. So I don't market myself as you know working specifically with that area. Chris (05:15) Yeah, I'm gonna make a plug. John who's on our panel, John Pope and myself are. I mean, I don't have a credential. I used to. I gave it up. I was like, I don't need the A D O D, the alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs social work certification. But I've been working with substance abuse since ninety five. It's where I actually started with the DUI class, but I consider myself more a mental health therapist 'cause we see more of it. But my point is John and I kinda do. We understand the whole language. all of the dynamics that go into this issue. It's a deep bond. And if you're a clinician and you happen to catch this show, or you know a clinician or you're working with a clinician, I suggest, man, all of you need to get like a week training. Like go to one of those, you know, four-day, you know, trainings where they go into substance abuse extensively, because it really acts as a blind spot and a lot of clinicians have zero idea about substance abuse. issues. So that's I think that's just really important. So that just to understand, Casey, where we're coming from. So Kasie (06:18) Mm-hmm. Chris (06:19) let's jump into this whole thing. I mean, people love the word enabling. And I know you've heard it before, Casey. Probably used it maybe in your work with parent-child relationships. But I mean, how do you see helping versus enabling? It's a bit of a crux of what we're talking. Kasie (06:36) Yeah, well, I I think it's a really good question to ask because it does get confusing. The way I really draw the distinction for myself and other people is is my response to the person's problem, whether it's addiction or otherwise, right? Because we enable people to do other things too, not just addiction, but is my response building their skills or increasing their dependence on me? And that's the biggest distinction that I draw between helping someone and enabling them. If what I am doing is helping build skills for that person, like real skills that they are able to apply or to get through a situation, then that is helping. If I'm setting up a situation where that it increases that person's dependence on me to be okay or to get through a such situation, then that's enabling behavior. Chris (07:34) Say those two again. If you would. Kasie (07:36) If I am building the skills of the person to get them to move forward in their own life, like I'm helping them build the skills. And by that I mean like if my adult child comes to me and says, I'm struggling financially, right? And I say, Okay, like let me show you how I build my budget. And then you need to build a budget for yourself, then I'm increasing their skill, right? Like I'm helping them build a budget. But if I bypass building a budget or helping them learn how to build a budget and just make up their car payment or, you know, things like that and start stepping in to solve the problem, then I'm enabling them to become more dependent on me instead of learning a skill and developing that for themselves. Chris (08:23) So you got on the one hand training and teaching. You got on the other hand creating a dependence on me doing it for you. And that is a nice distinction. And I agree. I agree with everything you said. The thing though, with this whole word enabling and the substance abuse field in general, historically, if you kind of go back, there's a big realm in the the addiction substance abuse treatment world that is attacking the denial. Like I could tell you a story of doing a group counseling session with with me and a co-leader. And I mean, she was, she she took the confrontive approach. There's a lot of confrontation in traditional substance abuse therapy. It's kind of where the word tough love comes from. and and we all understand tough love, and the need to, you know, kind of hit at somebody hard at first in treatment is important because you gotta break down. person so that they can kind of see through what they're blinded by, which is addiction. Okay. So that's that's sort of big traditional. And in that traditional realm, we have this word enabling. And it's it's very, you know, kind of shaming in a way a after a while when somebody is really looking at the eyeballs of someone they love and care about and is struggling with I love this person, I want to help them, I don't want to hinder them. But this is not going well and whatnot. So I I love Casey the way that you said it. But you know, am I teaching, am I am I training? Am I providing something that they can take? Or am I enabling such that they're making more codependent on me? So you heard what Casey said. I want to give you a real life example. My son literally called me this morning. Okay? He had a car wreck about a week ago. my gosh, Casey. Dude. Dukes Kasie (10:20) Cosh. Chris (10:21) hazard kind of shit landed on the side of his car. It was a big deal. He's okay, everything's fine. Right? Kasie (10:24) Wow. I'm glad he's okay. Chris (10:27) Yeah, absolutely. But we got the Tacoma is down. He drove a Tacoma. It ain't good. And he needed to get a new car. And he's also needing to move into his apartment. He's got one picked out. He's got the third, fourth, maybe the fifth apartment that he's gotten. And he calls me this morning. He's like, Hey Dad, dude, I you know, I I'm a little worried about money. Like I I I might and it basically gets to, you know, pretty quickly, like, you know, I might need to have five hundred bucks or ask you for money 'cause I've I didn't my my pay this week wasn't as as big as it was supposed to be or I thought it was gonna be. But I know I've just sold two and I got a lot of money coming and da da da da. So my response is, sure man. Hey, you need a couple thousand, you know, I confront you, that you know, that's fine. I've I've I have confidence with that. Now, did I provide him? Did I teach him? Did I help him learn a budget? Or did I just give him two thousand dollars and is that more dependent on me? Is that enabling the lines? My main point here and you can answer which one you think, Casey, if you want, but my my main point is do you see how easily the the lines can kinda blend? The the it's great. Kasie (11:38) Yeah. Well, I definitely so sorry, I I definitely think that the context matters, right? If you're providing temporary assistance, right? It is a temporary, finite situation. And honestly, having a car accident and having to meet a deductible immediately so that you can continue to go to work. I mean, he is doing the things that he needs to do to support himself. Yeah. And so that is a temporary assistance situation. Same thing with like disability accommodations or support during a genuine crisis situation where there it is a finite crisis, right? Like this happened, you know, my house burns down, right? Like that is a crisis situation. Everybody and their sister comes out to support and help and throw money at the situation and food at the situation and whatever. Those are not the Times, in my opinion, to sit there and be like, well, we really need to work on building a school here. You know, like that's the appropriate supportive stance, right? Because those are not the moments we want to force independence, right? Like, figure it out. those are the moments where it's temporary and it's an assistive gesture. There's no expectation from your son in this example that this is going to be an ongoing situation where he's going to come to you and ask. for a couple thousand dollars every couple weeks because he can't you know make his car payment or can't do this or can't do that it's gonna be a finite situation if it's not a finite situation and then you choose to continue then that's when you have stepped over the line Chris (13:21) Big difference. Right. Can I muddy the waters even more, Miss Casey? Kasie (13:26) Sure. Chris (13:27) Okay. As we know with substance abusing people, right? It's crisis all the time. So what about he got a DUI? He's absolutely young. We don't need a full-time record. I know a good lawyer. He's a personal friend. Why can't I just go get, you know, Jimmy to come and help him out with his current legal needs because This wreck happened and he's an underage driver, or he's gonna get a DUI, or he's gonna whatever, whatever. This is gonna lose our job. What about the crisis? Kasie (13:59) Yeah, so I I think that our definition of crisis is different when it comes to that situation. You know? Chris (14:04) Maybe. Maybe. Kasie (14:09) And I think that this is what happens a lot. So I'm glad that you brought up this point because what we interpret happening in situations like you just described is that that is the crisis, right? The dui is the crisis, right? The dui is not the crisis. The dui is a reasonable consequence assigned. to the problematic situation that's actually happening. And that's where people kind of get caught up when it comes to enabling other people, is that they start to view the reasonable consequences of actions. As the crisis itself when the crisis is on the other end. The crisis is you have an underage person that clearly had a history, you know, prior to this incident, I'm assuming, would had a history of, you know, drinking, things like that, and they're making decisions to get behind the wheel of a moving car. And so that's the distinction, is that we we really have to stop looking at it as you know, that part of it is the crisis and realizing that the crisis is this person has an underlying problem with substance use. Yeah. Chris (15:22) It's great, doesn't it? You know, I mean, look at think of these examples, right? Like giving someone money. We just talked about that. the big one, oftentimes, particularly in in parenting realm, you know, providing a place to live. But that isn't necessarily in parenting, that's with boyfriends and even baby daddies and baby mamas Kasie (15:43) Yeah. Chris (15:43) and stuff, right? Paying bills, particular bills that really need to be paid, calling their employer to explain in absence. Kasie (15:52) yeah. Chris (15:52) Picking someone up after they've been drinking. That's an interesting one with kids again. Taking somebody to treatment, riding them, allowing someone to remain at home after repeated relapses. That's a scary one. You know Are we sometimes so afraid of enabling addiction that we stop offering support that could actually promote recovery? So each one of these, and we already talked about a real live immediate example to a certain extent of like. my son and giving him money. It it really does get into the context and and I can't highlight enough fear. Fear Kasie (16:30) Mm-hmm. Chris (16:31) is a big part of what Casey's talking about that that is the context. Are you fearful about what will happen to them as a desperation to solve their problem? Or are you Kasie (16:45) Yeah. Chris (16:45) really like, let me help you and give you a helping hand because I'm not fearful. about this. I mean I'm super confident in my son getting his money together. He takes care of his money. He's super responsible. Love that boy in that regard. He's a Kasie (16:57) Sure. Chris (16:57) he's a he's crazy in a lot of other areas in life, but this area he is super solid, right? Kasie (17:02) Yeah. Yeah. And everybody needs help sometimes, right? Like that's a a universal truth. We all need help sometimes, whether it's financial, mental, emotional, like we all need support sometimes. There's a very humanistic quality to understanding that there is humanity behind every situation, even in the situation of addiction. You know, we have to look beyond the addiction sometimes to focus on there is still humanity left within that person. And so the desire to want to help is definitely there. I think what you're saying about the fear is is really showing up for people because we don't want bad things to happen to the people that we care about. And our response, right. Chris (17:47) Or fixing it for them, jumping in on them, doing a little bit more involved, right? Like it that fear will make you really jumpy. Kasie (17:55) Yeah, the the fear response I think often too makes us want to move into control. And I don't mean control isn't possessive, but control is in like fixing it or solving it for them. Because on the outside, we can see the problems and the mistakes and the missteps and things like that. But if that person is not seeing those things, if that person isn't experiencing the weight of a reasonable consequence, is that if If that person doesn't get to the place to where they're connecting to the guilt and shame and discomfort of the situation, it's really hard for them to make different choices in their life. And an addiction is difficult because it is it is a disease. It's you know, you don't look at someone with cancer and say, it'd be real great if you could stop having cancer right now and expect their cancer to go away. Chris (18:54) Yeah. Ab absolutely. And and and I'll tell you, you know, addiction has got to have consequences because when you try to take those consequences away, it perpetuates addiction, which is the definition of enabling, if you will. But but boy, that is that is really, really hard. And I just want to pause right now for for parents that are out there that you know that's that to me is one of the most difficult things about, you know, population to work with, parents that have children that are that are having substance abuse issues, even suspicious, suspected, developing, or full blown, it's clear, it's here, kind of situations. Because you really, really don't know what to do. And we're talking about 15 year olds, 14 year olds, 17 year olds. There's they are your responsibility. So what do you do when you're responsible for this other person? And and oftentimes honestly it comes down to even places to live. Now When they're under eighteen, it's a little bit difficult to say you can't live here. You have a legal limit there. But not impossible. You can go live with mamas, you can go grandmamas, you can go live with, you know, a family member or or or have different arrangements where you set things up. But I want to say, particularly as your adult kid, 20 year old, 30 year old, you know, there's 40 year olds that have been still living with their moms. Or if you see this developing as your teenager is getting into of their own age. It's a horrible thing to watch these consequences happen, but you have to sit back and allow them to happen. That's the tough love thing, but it's but it's more than that. You can't, like Casey's saying, fix it. And it comes right down even to having a place to live. Now the consequences are this kid, this person, this loved one may die out there. That's real. Let me get real if you don't realize that. They can overdose, they can be homeless. I mean, we have real realities with people that are just our neighbors. This isn't crazy, you know, loser families or this is this is healthy middle class, high class congressman type families. And and the way that I have landed in working with people, one person for many, many years, being a parent to their very ill adult child, is that it is okay to not provide a home for your child. It is also okay to provide a place to live and only a place to live and food for survival. I can't look at a parent's eyes and say, kick to the curb. That's the right move. It may be the only thing that gets them into recovery. That's a real conundrum. So that's the last time I'm gonna try to make your head spin a little bit, Casey. Kasie (21:48) Yeah, I mean I Chris (21:49) This evening anyway. Kasie (21:52) Yeah, I I think to a certain extent there's real strength in what you're saying. but I also think that there has to be some clear and compassionate boundaries. You know, if a person is able to remain in someone's home, even if it's their parent and child situation, I understand not asking a parent to kick their child out. I think sometimes it can be helpful to lead the parent to gain the strength and compassion. capacity and awareness of what is needed in the situation and they come to that own conclusion themselves that I need to ask them to to leave or get sober or take them to rehab and that's gonna be one of the stipulations for having to be here. Chris (22:37) Well let me be clear. It's reasonable on either side of that. It's very, very reasonable to kick your kid straight up to the curb. It's Kasie (22:45) It's reasonable. Yeah. Chris (22:46) very reasonable. Kasie (22:48) Yeah. Cause I I think what what I'm hearing you say, and I love a lot of what you said, because I think it's really about offering support without having to take ownership of the outcome, right? I can offer you support. I cannot take ownership of the outcome of what's going to happen to you or what continues to happen to you. And the support that I'm willing to offer is shelter. And food. The rest is up for you to figure out at this point. You know? I will keep you alive. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (23:18) Everything else. Everything. Kasie (23:22) Right. I will keep you alive. You know, but but I think that that what people fall into sometimes in those traps is because they see the deterioration of the person. They see the deterioration, they feel the deterioration of the relationship. Right. And then it starts to be like, Well, here's something else to kind of keep them engaged, right? Like, or do you want to go here? Do you want to do this? Do you wanna, you know, and then it becomes where you're opening it up to be emotionally, financially, and And just mentally taxing on you as the person that's providing the support. and that's when it gets really kind of icky and it can get really crossing over that line of actual support into the enabling category. because things start happening like stuff from your house goes missing because this person is now taking from you and selling it or you know things like that and so there has to be clear cut expectations on what it takes to remain in said domicile right and so even if you know substance is not on that honesty, integrity, you know, things like that. If things need to be set up or expectations need to be set up so that you can ensure that there are particular rules revolving around safety of person and property, I think that's appropriate too. Chris (24:53) You it's funny, I was just listening to you and it occurs to me, I think this is another really important point whether we're talking about, you know, issues with your husband or issues with your your child, or the two primary ones in a family. there I I I feel like there's a natural fear or belief. Like, you know, here we are two therapists, right? Male therapist, female therapist, and you might think, these Soft and pudgy and friendly and warm people, therapists, you know, they're gonna tell us to use I statements instead of you statements and try to be Pollyanish and no, look, show anger. It's okay to be pissed off. Like, they literally just damaged your property. You know? I could tell you it wasn't a happy event in the Gazda household when my kid put his foot through my glass screen door one year. Okay. He knew I was. pissed. But it was in a it was in a concerted, balanced way. It wasn't just reactive. You know, it was natural. Like, you know, if you're I I just think Casey, people are really afraid to show real emotion and we need to do repairs. We need to do all the things. But you don't have to be like, you know, this perfect contained person when you're dealing with crazy ass behavior. I mean they broke into your house and took stuff. Like people get shot for that. You know? No, we don't Yeah, go ahead. Kasie (26:25) Yeah, and so Yeah. And we're not condoning shooting people, by the way. Yeah. Chris (26:30) Right. Right. Thank you. Thank you for covering me. Kasie (26:34) And I think that I think that's why you have to be clear and concise, right? No matter what the situation is, no matter what you're dealing with, whether it's between you and your spouse, you and your child, you and an another adult. you have to be clear and concise because boundaries are not about what you want the other person to do. Boundaries are about what you can and cannot do, right? It explains what you can and cannot do. I can provide this for you. I cannot and will not do this. You know, and you you honestly do make it about yourself, not about the behavior of the other person. You can't control what that other person is deciding to do. None of us can do that. None of us can can control that. You may think you can. It's an illusion, right? There's some fictitious controls out there where we think we can faithfully like modify someone's behavior if we do this or if we do that. That that's not the case in these situations. In this situation, the boundaries are about what you can and what you are not willing to do. And that's what you have to shore up because if you can't change the person's mind or behavior, then you have to focus on what is in within your immediate control, which is yourself. And you have to stay committed and follow the course of action that you have set forward. So if you're gonna draw the line, you have to hold the line. And that's what happens a lot is we don't hold the line. Chris (28:08) Yeah, and and and and switching things a little bit, moving things. I mean it it I I would I would honestly say not a a hard line. The only reason why I say that is because people get so scared, Casey. It's like you know, we also care and have flexibility in normal relationships. It's just that you know, you can't you know, addicts will find any way to get it to manipulate and get what it is that they're needing, which is the next fix. So yeah, draw the line, hold the line, I love it. But let let's let's go let's do segment four and then we'll go forward and then back in what we were Talk about a boundary, right? I will not allow substance use in my home. A consequence, if the agreement is broken, we'll need to change the living arrangement. Now that doesn't mean necessarily you can or can't live here like we talked about before, but there's gonna be different arrangements here, right? A threat. If you ever if you ever drink again, you you you will never see me. We're we're done forever. It's an attempt of control. I'm gonna monitor everything you do so you can't use. Parents, careful there. It's an attempt at control. Like I said, f like Casey said earlier, fear, right? And lead you into controlling too much. motivational interviewing, if you're if you're a clinician listening to this, is a great way to kind of look at the way this works. It plays with the person's curiosity and having ambivalence and autonomy and reducing confrontational, you know, strategies. Motivational interviewing is a great way to, you know, those are some of the skills. Be curious about what's going on with your kid. Be ambivalent, you know. Hey, we said if you smoke again in this house, we have different arrangements. That's a boundary. I can follow through and say, Man, I'm I'm I love you. I'm ambivalent. I don't know what to do here with this. With this is not gonna work. We're gonna have to work and then leave it set and say nothing for a few days. You know what the kid's doing? Sweating their ass off, trying to figure out what's coming. Right? So have you ever heard of craft? I I've never heard of this, to be honest with you, Casey. Kasie (30:07) Not Chris (30:08) Yeah. Yeah, community reinforcement and family training. I don't know. They say it's i i it's funny, we we have new things that get recycled and they pull from other things and old things. I'm familiar with motivational interviewing and I pull on that theoretically a a lot. but this is new to me. evidence based approach that helps concerned family members use positive reinforcement, communication skills, self care and a carefully chosen limits. To encourage treatment, engagement. So again, Kasie (30:41) Hmm. Chris (30:43) let's help you, because I love you, positively reinforce engaging treatment. You know, when I was a young clinician, I was learning about all this stuff and I heard the phrase in Father Father Martin's chalk talk, you can't lead a horse to water. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, right? Kasie (31:07) Mm-hmm. Chris (31:08) And I even as teaching that D U R class, Casey. added a line to that thing and still believe it today. And that was in nineteen ninety six, right, when I'm teaching this class. Kasie (31:19) Wow, I was in seventh grade. Chris (31:22) my gosh. Okay. Humble pie. Magical moment. Thanks for that, Casey. Kasie (31:32) You're welcome. Chris (31:33) So you can lead a horse to water. You can't make them drink, but you can have them get be thirsty, right? You can help someone to be thirsty. And that's that's treatment engagement. So listen, sit your loved one down and talk with them openly and honestly with your own vulnerability, with your own fear, with your own insecurities. about what the future holds and all the things and just be genuine and and and say I see things that are different with you and I don't know how to fix it. Professionals do. Can you get on board? Because I don't think this is working for you. You and do at rhymes, Kasie (32:16) Yeah. Chris (32:16) Casey, that was pretty cool, wasn't it? Kasie (32:18) That's great. Your poet didn't know it. I I do think one key thing that people can do for themselves, even if you are not sure if this is pertaining to you or if you're not sure that you are someone that's loving a person that is struggling with addiction, there are open Al Anon like Al Anon meetings, which are for family members and loved ones of people. people th of people that love people who are going through addiction, alcoholism, things like that. and even though it's not necessarily an evidence-based practice, it's more of a 12-step model and supplement to the big book used in AA. it's really informative. It can really give you some great strategies on how to approach things. I have seen it be transformative in the lives of couples in particular, where the person who is not the one that's struggling with the addiction is learning how to implement, structure, respond to, deal with, remove personalization and situations and really capture the humanity of the person on the other end. and so I would even support that. They have open meetings and a lot of them are virtual too, so you can do them from wherever you are. And just listening and observing can be a good way to kind of check yourself too in some of those moments to see if there are things or things that people talk about that resonate with you. Chris (34:03) I definitely second that. You know, as a matter of fact, it kinda sucks because a lot of times another traditional thing in the field of substance abuse treatment is the the the kid goes off to rehabs or the the spouse goes off to recovery and you know, the spouse goes to AA meetings or celebrate recovery and you know, the family's sitting back at home like What about me? You know? They don't have any support. They don't have any knowledge. They don't have any feedback. They don't have any, you know, encouragement. It's like, you know, particularly in world of parent, you just got everybody busting your chops about being tougher with your kid and controlling what they're doing and you know yeah, go ahead. There's so much fear there. Kasie (34:47) no, I was just gonna say, like, if you ever heard like, if only you would have spanked them when they were a child, like what? Chris (34:53) I mean, right. It there's so much more than that. And corporal punishment spanking, I it's fine. My my my kids got popped a little bit here and there. Kasie (35:00) Whatever. Yeah. Chris (35:03) But there is. There's so much more. Kasie (35:06) Yeah. There is. And and I think it's worth saying too that a lot of times, unless people, even people who are seasoned substance use clinicians, if they're not getting the information and the updated education on all the new stuff that is out there that is legal but still addictive, it's crazy, right? Like I know like Kraton is a big thing, you know, and so people are able to Chris (35:34) It's a whole nother level. Kasie (35:35) legally. Legally have access now to certain elements that are that have very addictive properties. I know that some people that I've seen in my office before developed even opioid addiction post dental procedures or post-surgery, like they never had an addiction before. And now all of a sudden, Chris (35:56) Or they relapse. Kasie (35:58) yep, all of a sudden they're addicted, you know, and things like that. And so, you know, I I think. Arming yourself with knowledge is good. I think having a support system for yourself is good as the person who's loving someone that's going through this. and also just informing yourself about just different avenues that you can take yourself to feel better within the situation, such as a self-care perspective, so on and so forth. Yes, Chris. Chris (36:30) Yeah, no, I now wanna be make sure we're not misleading or or that that that doesn't come off the way you didn't intend. Or if you did, let me push back at it. It's very, very like ninety nine percent, like ninety seven percent unlikely for you to go to a dental procedure, have oxycotum prescribed to you, and Kasie (36:49) Yeah. Chris (36:50) then and then have that trigger addiction. J it you know, addiction is okay, so you're agreeing. The the addiction is is a genetic biological disease that is really born into the child. I like to cut through that and say babies are drug addicts or alcoholics. They just haven't had anything yet and we don't know Kasie (37:08) Right. Chris (37:08) how to detect it. Right. So it's I don't because people don't need to be fearful. Kasie (37:10) Yeah, it's very unlikely for that to happen. Yeah, you don't need to be fearful. But but I do think that if you have a family history, right, of addiction in your family and things like that, Chris (37:22) yeah. Pay attention. Kasie (37:25) pay attention to that, right? And if given the option of having like hydrocodon as a pain. medication or 800 milligram ibuprofen, if you feel like you you can warrantly like live your life and then not be impeded by pain, then take the ibuprofen, you know? So I think there's smart decisions you can make as a consumer as well. But all that to say is that it can happen to anyone. And I guess that was more so my point. Like any person can deal with either themselves or someone in their family in their immediate circle that they love. that, you know, falls under the category of addiction. and it can be to a variety of things. It doesn't even have to be substances. Porn, like lots of other things, are highly addictive. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chris (38:15) Four things. Four things. Eating addictions, gambling and debting, sexual addictions, and online video gaming. Here's here's the thing. Isn't is isn't just listening to you and us back and forth here, it's like I want you to realize how how beautiful a gift it is to sit down and have a frank, genuine, and honest conversation about family genetics with your 10-year-old. They gotta know. Or with your spouse. You can do this maritally. You know, find a time where it's not pressured and you're just learning about addiction and you kind of understand the genetic realities that are there. And say, hey, you know, honey, I mean your your Uncle Bob was was was problematic, I I think, wasn't he? I've heard you talk about, you know, your dad a little bit, I'm not sure, but there's this there's this whole genetic thing. Like what what do you think about that? Of course you're gonna catch denial. Well what are you trying to say? You trying to say I got a problem, you know Give real strong defensiveness real quick, don't get me wrong. I understand that. But particularly with our children, what a gift it is to have those kind of conversations. 'Cause they don't know Talk about teaching them, talking about providing them information. they don't know. Kasie (39:31) Yeah. And then you you can't know what you don't know. So then trying to hold them responsible when something does occur but Chris (39:39) Right. Kasie (39:39) you knew the whole time that this was a potential I mean a and we're not blaming people. It gets missed a lot, you know, we look over it, we don't think that they're old enough to know and you know, and and that's, you know A lot of of a different show probably, but I think when it is appropriate for them to know and understand and take hold of the information, it is good to talk to them about it. because not because we want to down the other loved one or the person in the family or whoever they're seeing, but because we want them to make informed and educated decisions about their life moving forward. It's the same reason that we inform adolescents about sexual development and sex, because we want them to have informed consent and choices about what they do in their life. Chris (40:28) So let's talk about the the different situations when your child might be struggling with addictions. Let's let's distinguish between three, lay something out. We don't have time to talk about these different things, but there's a point at the end. So so so follow the bouncing ball for a second. First of all, your adolescent child. Teenagers, right? Parents have an active responsibility for supervision, safety, access to treatment, and appropriate limits. This is not the same as setting boundaries with an independent adult. There is a big factor in the difference. We've been talking Your young adult child, boy, it gets really tricky there. Parents may still provide housing, tuition, transportation, all sorts of things, medical insurance. How do you establish expectations without turning every interaction into a power struggle? Any level of parenting, I'm gonna tell you, power struggles are enemy number one. And boy, there's fertile ground here to get into it. Lastly, your independent adult child. You have less control over their decisions, but you still have choices about what support you offer and what conditions you place on that support. And my point is what you teach and talk about and genuinely share with your fears. I'm I'm terrified for you, thirty-two year old daughter. I see this and that and it really scares me. And I I stay up at night thinking about it. What c do you think about this at all? Can I how can I be helpful to you? Just some simple dialogue. I just created right now. Right? Questions that we don't have time to totally kick around, Casey. Should parents ever kick an adult child out because of substance abuse? We talked about that one. When is paying Kasie (42:02) Mm-hmm. Chris (42:03) rent or providing housing actually harm reduction? We talked about that a little bit. How to handle repeated relapses after expensive treatment? Ew, we didn't talk about that. Kasie (42:13) Can can I interrupt for one second? Chris (42:15) Sure. Kasie (42:16) Yeah, the second point that you made about winners paying rent or providing housing actually harm reduction. I think that that's a really distinguishing point here is that when we we are looking at reasonably preventing harm instead of preventing reasonable consequences, right? That that's Chris (42:36) Mm-hmm. Kasie (42:37) a I think that's a big distinction here. Like them being homeless, exposed to elements, you know, maybe even in Environmentally, where you live, that it actually would endanger their life to be without a residence, then that is harm reduction, right? But keeping them in your home to help them avoid the consequence of all of the actions or avoid reasonable consequences legally, or reasonable consequences from like a relationship that they're in or responsibilities they have to maybe another. a person or a child, that's not harm reduction. That's intervening and trying to control and solve problems. Chris (43:23) Trying to fix. Kasie (43:24) Trying to fix. Yeah. Chris (43:25) Yeah. Yeah. thank you for that. What about protecting younger siblings in the household? accidentally making recovery harder by rescuing from all the consequences. We did talk about that one. Kasie (43:36) Yeah. Chris (43:37) What does a parent do when refusing help may increase overdose or suicide risks? There's a phrase that comes in here, and it's it's one that I've also always dis had distaste for. And I'm sure you've heard this, Casey. how do you feel about rock bottom? Hitting rock bottom. Do you like it or not? I don't either. I never have. I I I think of rock bottom as you hit rock bottom and you spring forward. It's called a gelinic curve. It's a very old concept. Jellinic curve, if you want to look it out. Instead of rock bottom, I like to think of a spiral. You're spiraling down. Least we forget addiction ends in jails, institutions, or death. And anecdotally, that's what I see. That's that's Kasie (44:17) Truth. Chris (44:17) what happens. So instead of really thinking about You gotta hit rock bottom because well, hell, that's jails, institutions, and death. You know, we don't have to lose everything. There's a spiral and you can get off of that spiral at any point. Spiral a little further. You can get off. Spiral a little further. You can get off before you pay ultimate penance. Now, rock bottom can be different things for people. So I don't totally hate the idea, I had to hit rock bottom before I got sober. You'll hear that in AA all the time. And I don't so I don't Kasie (44:49) Gosh, yeah. Chris (44:49) I don't begrudge, but I wanna think about it in the way that you don't have to lose everything before recovery is possible. Waiting for that can be, you know, dangers with fentanyl and you know, Kasie (45:02) Yeah. Chris (45:02) driving deaths and, you know, violence and stuff. So it just a little you know, I I see those things kinda differently. Sounds like you kinda see that. Kasie (45:11) Yeah, I I definitely do. And and what I see often in response to the families that are involved with these individuals, whether it's a spouse, a parent, or whatnot, is that you know, and I don't mean this in a selfish sense. I don't think it comes from a selfish place, but we often start to frame the addiction of the person that we love and make it about ourselves, right? Like we ask ourselves questions like, where did I go wrong? Chris (45:37) Ooh. That's codependency. That's codependency. Kasie (45:41) Yeah, where did I go wrong? You know, where did I go wrong in the situation? you know, am I making things worse? when I say no and something terrible happens, am I gonna be able to live with myself? You know, things like that. And so I think it it's a important factor there that when we hear those things as clinicians, we automatically perk up to the thought of codependency that their well being, their outcomes. are impacting our well being, our outcomes. Chris (46:14) And I just I I this is so common. I I literally just had a conversation today on these things and t to to see the relief when I was able to to to really validate or encourage that it was a parent scenario that this parent was act I mean they're doing what they can do. Like, you know, it there's there's such a desperate feeling, like, you know, I'm too lenient and I I change all the rules and I don't stick to the boundaries. Yeah, Casey said, set them and hold them. or I'm strict and I'm pounding them all the time. We do nothing but fight. Every time I come home, I smell a vape and I'm going into the room and it's a I don't even want to come home. It's like ye ha self grace. Like, you know, you are doing what you know to do that is best that you know to do. And if that's really true, give yourself some grace. Play around with some new ideas, do some more reading and learning, but boy, it's it you could get real desperate, Casey, feeling like you're wrong. Kasie (47:20) Yeah. It it can. I mean, it's easy to get there. Nobody is perfect. Nobody does this perfectly. Even us as clinicians that work in the business, we don't do it perfectly with our own families. It's a it's a learning process for the entire system. And it has to be kind of a this systems approach, right? Like where it's not just you working in isolation to try to be the best supporter that you can be without being an enabler. It's you working. It's the The people that your loved one comes in contact work working. It's it's a really whole systems kind of effort towards the support of this person, you know, and sometimes that's having hard conversations with other people, you know, like so and so is struggling right now. I would appreciate it if you didn't invite him over, if you if we're not inviting him over to the garage for Chris (48:13) Ha ha ha. Kasie (48:14) Sunday football, which equivocates into massive amounts of drinking. You know, like it's it we've gotta get it Chris (48:20) Be honest. Kasie (48:21) we've gotta be honest, right? And move past the shame and guilt and stigma that comes along with that. And it's hard to do that. It's hard not to feel like you're the laughing stock of the family, or people are gonna come up to you and start telling you like, Why are you even with them anymore? Stay. They give you the outs and they don't understand why you continue to maintain a relationship or there's a lot of inundating of things. And then you know, we go to Dr. TikTok or Dr. ChatGBT and we try to figure everything out and and sometimes we go Chris (49:01) Chad is my friend, he loves me and I love him, by the way. Kasie (49:04) Yeah. But I can't believe you said that after how you bash technology. But anyway, moving forward. Chris (49:10) I know. Kasie (49:12) Chad is my bestie, okay. But but yeah. Chris (49:15) This is the context that we're looking at. The the whole entire relationship system. I mean, there are so many broken promises, repeated apologies, dishonesty, secrecy, loss of trust, financial instability, emotional, physical, intimacy, problems, sexual difficulties, Kasie (49:32) Yeah. Chris (49:32) sober spouse becoming the manager, investigator, or parent, the resentment, the guilt, the fear, the exhaustion. And we've been talking about this whole time, right? Here's the big conundrum. You know, if I stay and help, am I enabling? If I leave or establish firm boundaries, am I abandoning the person? There there really isn't a a one off, a one or the other, I hope is is what you're hearing. There's so so much gray here and but but boy, this whole family is affected. I I can't tell you how how much a family is affected by a kid going through this. my gosh. I mean, a sibling and stuff. Kasie (50:07) Yeah, what I would encourage What I would encourage the listener to do is the following, right? Like, I really want you to take this 30,000 foot up approach, right? And and being honest with yourself and looking at what's going on in your life and and seeing if what you're experiencing, right? If this is you and you are someone that's living in this situation with someone that you love, whether it's a kid, a spouse, or otherwise. or I work a lot with elderly adults, and sometimes it's our elderly adults that are having some addiction. Addiction-related issues, and we feel a certain type of way because of respect and all of these things, too. So that's another whole area. I could probably do a whole show on that. But Chris (50:52) Mm-hmm. Kasie (50:52) but I want you to look at the situation, and if it looks like the following, then I really want you to inspect it for more of those kind of enabling tendencies. So usually the way it kind of appears itself is there is some type of crisis, right? Like there's some type of crisis. And we as the parent or we as the spouse or we as the support person come in and we do some kind of rescue effort, right? Like, no, crisis, rescue, right? And that rescue effort provides temporary relief. Okay. Now, the temporary relief, if it is finite, like your situation with your son, you know, things like that, if it's finite and it kind of curtails off there, and there's no repeated pattern of behavior. Then to me, that is support, right? Like we have supported the situation. If what Chris (51:45) I am so supportive. Kasie (51:46) yeah, if what you're seeing though, is that after the temporary relief, the pattern then continues. Chris (51:55) Uh-oh. Kasie (51:56) And then we're back into repeated crisis. And we're back into rescuing effort. And we're back to temporary relief. Like maybe for a week or two. It's like, you know, Heavenly Bliss. Chris (52:06) And honestly, you'll see this with addiction over and over again. You you you it's Kasie (52:10) Right. Chris (52:10) like you can't miss it. You might miss it a time, two, three, five times, you know, over the course of a year as this develops. But after a little bit of time, six months, two years, like you're good you're gonna be in this constantly. It's gonna be obvious. Yeah. Kasie (52:26) Yeah. Yeah. So I was just saying, like, I think if you make that observation about what's going on, then then that's where you want to start looking, you know, like what are the behaviors that I am doing that contribute to the repeat of the cycle? Not what the addicted Chris (52:44) So here's a pre Kasie (52:45) person is doing. We know what they're doing. What are you doing? Chris (52:49) Yeah, yeah, you're right. So here's a provocative question. Maybe it kind of goes to that. Let's kick this around for a minute. feel free to get mad at me if I say something, Casey, that you don't agree with. Kasie (52:57) No worries. Chris (53:00) I know. Trust me, I've worked with you a while. Is the concept codependency sometimes used to shame family members? You know, who are simply terrified of losing someone that they love? Do we shame people with this big word that's used all the time? Codependency. Kasie (53:16) Well, I hope we don't as clinicians. I hope we don't as clinicians shame people by calling them Chris (53:17) I say yeah. Nah, yeah. I think we may. Kasie (53:24) dependent. I I think we gotta be careful there, right? Because I think, like you've said on the show numerous amounts of time about lots of different things, is everything is on a spectrum, right? And dependency and relationships are on a spectrum. I am absolutely not codependent in the traditional sense to my husband, but I do have a dependence with him, obviously. You know, like we share a household together, we've got four kids, we've got three dogs, like we depend. Interdependently on each other for support and all of those things. So there is dependency in our relationship. What we're talking about, and what I think sometimes gets misconstrued, is when you are taking more of the onus and responsibility and ownership of what is going on within the context of your relationship without there being a lot of reciprocity to the point to where it becomes how they're feeling becomes how you're feeling, right? If they have a bad day, you are having a bad day. Because really it's you trying to go in and fix the situation. It's not getting any better. Therefore you're feeling bad about it. I don't think we necessarily use it to shame family members. I think it's more of an informing the family member. And I like the word tendencies as opposed to saying you are codependent on this person. There is a tendency to trend towards codependence in situations when our loved one has addiction. Chris (55:03) Yeah, and I think in the public people are ashamed a lot. I mean, we don't have a lot of time left in the show Kasie (55:07) Yeah. Chris (55:08) to go back and forth, but I think be careful about that. I think instead I'm just gonna offer another piece of information and then we'll get to the practical questions and wrap up and get out of here. But I you see on the screen I've got a I've got a scale and I've I've thought about this scale, right? So it's like the first quarter is related. When you when you get to know somebody almost meet, greet, mate, date, like kind of thing, like you start to be related. Instead of interdependent, Casey, I use the term interrelated, right? Kasie (55:37) Okay. Chris (55:38) So so the first quarter is we're related and then we're interrelated, but then you fall into tipping over, just like that, a little bit to the right of that line, into codependency, right? And then you have dependency is just severe Kasie (55:54) Mm-hmm. Chris (55:55) severe forms of all these tendencies that that easily develop. And I and I wanna say here's here's the line if you're watching YouTube. You should be watching YouTube and listening on the thing. Go subscribe to YouTube. Shameful plug Casey. my gosh. Kasie (56:07) Nice, nice. Chris (56:09) If you're if you're a parent, this this related and interrelated, I'm gonna say that parents universally is a bold statement, are here. At least. You know? I feel like there's a there's a there's a big gray area When we're simply just parents to kids, we easily fall into some of these things that we're talking about because we want to make them happy, we want to make them well, and we end up doing too much for them. Simply telling them to brush their teeth seven times in one evening is like you're you're kind of trying, you you popped in there a little bit. You know? It's so easy, is my point. So if you if you feel Kasie (56:51) Yeah, it's so easy. Chris (56:53) shamed lose that feeling because we are we all get there pretty easily. Yeah. Kasie (56:59) Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes situationally too, right? It can shift from situation to situation at different points as well. You know, there are things that Chris (57:08) Probably fair. Kasie (57:09) I'm more passionate about with my children than other things, right? Like I'm not a codependent, like sports mom. I'm not in the gray area as a sports mom. I'm like, if you want to get better at sports, you have to work harder, right? I'm not like Chris (57:25) I probably was. Kasie (57:26) Tipping into that area, right? But I am right, Chris (57:29) Why haven't you practiced this week, man? Kasie (57:32) but I am academically, right? Like, dude, you say Chris (57:35) Mm. Kasie (57:36) you have goals, you say you have this, you say you have that, like, and then I start like that overreach component, right? So I think even situationally it can change. Chris (57:45) That's funny. You do that academically. I did that sports wise. That's awesome. Kasie (57:50) And it's probably not gonna work out for either one of us. Like let's be honest. Chris (57:53) No, it didn't work out well for me. I could tell you that. I could dang well tell you that. we like to towards the end of the show here do a practical question section where we directly speak to you. Casey and I take a turn and we we speak directly to the screen through you. Not that we're delivering therapy services in any way, but we have we have some thoughts. So my go first, is that okay, Casey? Curious, ma'am, sir. Listening, have you Have you clearly communicated? It's a lot of gray and it's a lot of difficulty, and you've heard us talking all about this, you know. But what you're willing to do to support recovery, not out of anger, not out of fear, but clearly communicated with concern and compassion, true, genuine compassion. What you're willing to do to support their recovery and what you're no longer willing to do. It's a switch. It's a switch up, right? It's It's it's being brave enough to communicate genuinely with your fears intact, what you'll support them with, and what those boundaries are, what those limits are, what you're no longer willing to do. And then you if you really get into something that you're no longer willing to do, that is really if you're using that language, you really can't do it anymore. I think you have a question, Casey. Kasie (59:11) I do. So to those who are listening, can you maintain love and connection with someone while refusing to participate in destructive patterns? Please hear my words very thoughtfully and carefully. I absolutely believe the greatest form of love is being able to provide a disciplined perspective around this exact question. And I think that the greatest thing you can do to love someone is to help them understand the way to help themselves out of destructive patterns. And so, yes, you can maintain love and connection. Does it look the same as if it were in a healthy situation with someone that isn't in an addiction cycle? Probably not going to look the same. And at times it may not feel the same, but you can maintain love by. Focusing on the humanity of the person, understanding that beyond the disease, they are still the person that you love. but also understanding that you also in the same process have to love yourself and respect yourself while also giving the love to your loved one. So, yes, you can maintain love and connection. Sometimes it has to be at a different place, sometimes it has to be from a distance for a while. Sometimes it has to be within the boundaries that you've set up based on the expectations of safety. But that is in of itself a one of the greatest forms of love. one of my favorite all-time Bible verses is John 15, 13. No greater love hath any man this than this, than to give his life for his friends. You know, I the greatest example of putting love forward is being able to self-sacrifice the control, self-sacrifice all the things that you want to do to rescue and allow that person to learn how to live their life. Chris (1:01:25) Okay, my gosh, Casey, Morgan, was that a shrink wrap-up or was that a practical question? My goodness gracious. Kasie (1:01:31) I don't know, sorry. Chris (1:01:35) Wow. Wow. Kasie (1:01:37) Spirit. Chris (1:01:40) I'm gonna give you a choice. I and the choice is I I I told them last week that when when we talked about Neil not being here to judge the shrink wrap up, the shrink wrap up is the way we usually end the show where we give a sort of a summary of the events and the show and whatnot, then Neil gets to decide in a friendly competition who did the better job of summarizing the show and and and left a a lasting impression. And I I I think that I I I thought I was gonna be able to be the judge this week, but he said that no no no no he will he will judge and he'll let us know next week who wins. We can either not do shrink wrap up. I'm gonna give you a suggestion that you use that for your shrink wrap up and I end with my attempt, my feeble attempt. Kasie (1:02:19) Yeah, I think that's great because Chris (1:02:20) To come to that. Kasie (1:02:21) I was gonna say the same thing. Like we should just have it like I feel like this topic was pertinent and on point and beautifully constructed. So I would give my vote to you for shrink rack wrap up. Chris (1:02:33) No, it's gotta be you. That's sorry. I'm gonna attempt here and we'll say goodbye and head out of here. My shrink wrap-up would be look, this really is a topic that isn't necessarily specifically induced with the idea of parenting or marriage in addiction. We talked a lot about it in that context, but boy, the way that Casey just wrapped it all up there helps you to understand connecting with somebody that you love and and what we're trying to get at is You know, avoiding the world's shame and guilt and fear and all of these things that come into a family dynamic. Because I tell you, if I'm doing an initial assessment with somebody and I find that you have any kind of substance abuse in your family of origin, I automatically know a lot about how that family dynamic works and it runs around fear. It runs around shame. It runs around guilt and just massive insecurities. And what's crazy about it is. When you're in those systems, you don't even know it and you actually appear wildly confident because you kinda have to. Stuff can't bother you. You always have a new crisis right around the corner and stuff. So there are boundaries. There are it is hope. I mean, you know, recidivism rates suck, people do relapse, but man, you know, your loved one is not lost until, as they say, the fat lady sings in jails, institutions, or death. There is a spiral. And they can get off of it at any time. And I have seen people get well and be sober and and absolutely recover. That that is possible. I don't know if it'll happen for you and yours, but I know that it is possible. And I ask you to have that faith and trust. And I'll carry that for you further if you need me to do that for you, or more likely with you, because there is hope. There is hope about this this issue that is in your in your family. All Kasie (1:04:24) Amen. Chris (1:04:24) right. Neil Neil gets to ne Neil gets to decide this one, Casey. We'll find out, but I'm not I'm not real confident here. Kasie (1:04:32) Yeah. But it it sounded good, Chris. Like I I you know, I have no notes. Chris (1:04:35) Okay. Okay. Thank you. I have no notes. All right, listen, this was Casey and I. We got the shrink wrap up or I mean the month in review, I believe, next week. And then Casey, you'll actually be on the next one with us, I believe, right? And Kasie (1:04:51) Yeah, should be. Chris (1:04:52) your your dance classes are are are going along well until like December or so, right? Yeah. Kasie (1:04:57) it's cheer. It's cheer. Yeah. Chris (1:05:00) Dance is cheer, isn't it? Cheer and dance. I did I raised two boys. I have no idea. Kasie (1:05:03) Yeah, it's it's not my thing. Chris (1:05:08) boy. Kasie (1:05:09) Yeah. Chris (1:05:09) Love her love her through it, Casey. Stay well, guys. Take care and and we'll see you next Kasie (1:05:11) Yeah, I I do. I do. Goodbye, everyone. Chris (1:05:15) week.