In Episode 374 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we dismantle the common myth that romantic relationships exist to make us happy, exploring why prioritizing temporary emotional states over long-term emotional health can sabotage even the strongest connections. By contrasting the features of a “happy” relationship with a “healthy” one, this episode dives into the vital concepts of differentiation, identity, and secure attachment—examining how to balance deep interpersonal connection with true selfhood without falling into co-dependency or extreme independence. Listeners will be challenged to reflect on whether they are expecting their partners to fix internal unhappiness, offering actionable insights on how to cultivate emotional safety, establish boundaries, and maintain a strong sense of self while building a thriving relationship.
Tune in to see Yourself in a Disconnected World Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Have you ever expected a relationship to create happiness you weren’t experiencing within yourself?
- Would you rather have a relationship that makes you happy—or one that helps you become healthier?
- Who are you when you’re not someone’s spouse, partner, parent, employee, or caretaker?
Links referenced during the show: https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily/
ReUnderstanding Your Marriage
Chapter Four | If you can learn how to be alone . . . then you will learn how to be together.
Probably the primary chapter for 374.
Chapter Five | Share your life with your wife, but your wife cannot be your life.
That’s almost the episode thesis.
Chapter Twelve | Your spouse cannot create happiness for you . . .
Obviously. This is exactly what you’re talking about.
Chapter Eighteen | Develop your own identity, one set apart as one-half of a married couple. . . .
That’s “finding yourself.”
Chapter Twenty-Seven | Acceptance of your spouse begins with acceptance of self.
Excellent bridge from self → relationship.
Chapter Thirty-Five | Part of not feeling alone in marriage requires not being afraid of being alone.
Another direct hit.
1.15 | Life is too short to not be happy.
Interesting because you can complicate your own statement: Yes—but what does being happy actually mean, and whose job is it?
1.21 | There is a need for balance.
Self versus relationship.
1.25 | We are constantly a new self or a reconstituted self.
Especially relevant because “finding yourself” isn’t discovering some fixed person hidden underneath everything.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
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Episode #374 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Hello, this is Through a Therapist Eyes, and you are finding us on a pretty peculiar day of October the first, twenty twenty six. This is Thursday night football. Thus, I am dressed in my glory. All of my gear is on prior to the game. Therefore, air go, I will do my part as a fan. And John, the superstitions will be okay, and the Steelers will win. What do you think about that? All right. John (00:22) Thank you. That is all right. Sports superstitions are very good. Chris (00:28) They're very important, man. They're very, very important. John (00:30) Ready for Chris (00:31) Mr John Pope is hanging out with us. How are you? John (00:33) I'm doing outstanding. Thank you. Chris (00:36) And we have Miss Victoria Pendergrass who exclaimed that she is on her f kitchen floor or bedroom floor because they're moving and she's in chaos. But we have Miss Victoria. John (00:46) Saturday. So chaos mode. Yeah. Chris (00:50) Episode 374. Relationships won't make you happy. That's depressing. But the colon says finding yourself in a disconnected world. Okay, this is this is gonna be an interesting show that may challenge some views, challenge some attitudes, challenge some understandings with how you experience relationships. when we do a episode, we like to give you Reflection questions and things to think about during the show. So here's the three that we have for today. Have you ever expected a relationship to create happiness you weren't experiencing within yourself? Two, would you rather have a relationship that makes you happy or one that helps you become healthier? And three, are who are you when you're not someone's spouse, a partner, or parent, if you're not an employee or a caretaker? Then who are you? An existential question we just throw in there, John. What do you think about John (01:52) we just love that. Chris (01:53) that? John (01:54) Those are good questions, man. Chris (01:56) Right. So this is where you get insights from a panel of therapists in personal time in your car or at home. we usually have Casey with us every other week now because of child care scheduling today. You've got me, John, and Victoria. this is where you get insights about mental health and substance abuse. We blow up stereotypes and disseminate information. Knowing it's not to delivery of therapy services in any way. Look, we are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day, and this is where We talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. Okay. we do our part by giving you hopefully some fun and friendly content with a through a therapist eyes idea through our eyes. We ask for you to click and subscribe to do your part and to help us get found. I am getting more routined into responding and stuff to the YouTube comments and everything that we have, but John, you need to make sure you tell him how many stars. John (02:55) Five stars. Remember the five dollar foot long subway? It's the five stars, which is the golden way. And we can keep going further and further up the up the podcast tree to the top. Chris (03:12) Yeah, man. You're you're like almost too calm about it. John (03:15) Yeah. No, I can be yeah, let me get like Victoria. Chris (03:17) Yeah. Are you sure you could get lived? Get hyped. Contact through a therapycize dot com is a way to get up with us. This is the human emotional experience which we endeavor to figure out together. And I think that this this particular episode i i this month kind of is you know relationships in a world where we're so distant. and i I I I I I I think that This conversation of relationships making us happy versus not making us happy is something that I've thought about in therapy with people for a long time. You know, I hear all kinds of comments, particularly in marital counseling, where people really want to be seen and heard and respected and you know, there's a balance, you know, with the EFT elements. but what's what seems to be pretty universal is Unfair or unreasonable or dangerous even expectations that we create for our partner to make us happy or to make us well. I almost feel like it might be a universal element. And that's why I generated this topic and I want to kick it around with our panelists. What what do the two of you think about that? Do I have a beat on maybe a reasonable assessment or thought that you we've seen in what we do or am I off a little bit and that's not anywhere near universal? What wh what what say you? John (04:44) Okay, I think it's you're you're spot on, Chris. But I can get more excited about it. I think you're spot on. So Chris (04:52) Yeah, yeah, you might need to get some caffeine. Well we'll say more about being spot on, 'cause that's that that was just genuine question I asked in the moment. John (05:01) Well, I think your questions kind of line up where we're gonna go in this. And I they're very germane, and in fact they they really hit the mark or lead us to dig deeper than other questions that you've asked. Not that saying that they're not relevant or germane in the past, but this seems to be much more in line with where we're wanting to go because there is a big difference about pursuing happiness and or being and having happiness and achieving it. But we say pursue happiness, that's in our declaration of independence, but Chris (05:47) At least with the United States. John (05:49) with the United States, but it's also but that's kind of elusive. It's ephemeral. And you're kind of digging down deeper and saying This is an internal thing that we have. Chris (06:04) Right. Absolutely. Victoria, what do you see? What do you see in this? Or did we just lose you? There you go. What do you see in this? Victoria (06:15) So are we assuming that like I mean, based on like your second question that you asked, you're stating that like it's not possible to have both? Chris (06:28) Okay, say more. 'Cause obviously, yeah, kinda. You can have both. John (06:34) You suppose I am. Yeah. Victoria (06:35) Yeah, but you Yeah, but you you say you stated as like would you rather have a relation well, would you rather have a relationship that makes you happy or one that helps you become healthier? Chris (06:47) Yeah, I think there's not a a dichotomy there. And you're right. That's that question is a little leading, Victoria. I'm glad you call me on that. Because the spirit is people people don't have to choose between the two. But oftentimes we we I think people fall into a space where they're choosing between the two. They're believing either Victoria (07:04) Yeah. Chris (07:05) you're making me happy and this is healthy or you're not making me happy and this is not a healthy relationship. And I don't know the two are correlated. John (07:12) Well, I'm I'm thinking that if you choose choose happiness, Victoria (07:14) You're gonna have to get weird as this. John (07:17) the relationship makes you happy, that also is downplaying your ability to be happy, you know, your your within yourself. And I would like to go in a further area and I I'm not gonna join in on that until a little bit later when we get into a different segment. Chris (07:37) Okay, you're gonna he's he's saving his fire for for a for a little bit from now. So yeah, I that's a thing. Victoria, to me it's just like look, there's Victoria (07:45) Yeah. Chris (07:45) there's a phrase, I just wanna be happy. I hear this say people say all the time. You know, I I hear consequential statements for f for separating and divorce that you're not making me happy or I'm not happy in this relationship. And you know, I I love my personal favorite one 'cause it hits me to the to my heart. You know, I love you but I'm not in love with you. Or or statements Victoria (08:07) Mm. Chris (08:08) like these that are just like, What are we saying? What's that, guys? I got a reaction there. What's John (08:10) Seinfeld. It's Seinfeld. That was in Seinfeld. Chris (08:16) Seinfeld did that. Yeah. I mean it's it's but I Victoria (08:19) I love you but I'm not in love with you. Chris (08:21) Bah drives me nuts because it you know, it's like what what does the sentence even mean? And so happiness gets un unfortunately it becomes the measurement. And I don't want happiness to be a measurement. Therefore, yeah, Victoria (08:35) Yeah. Chris (08:36) Victoria, we can have them both at the same time, but when you're using that as a measurement to determine whether or not you need to be in a relationship or it's health or any of those types of things. Victoria (08:46) Right. Chris (08:46) That that it just leaves out so much of what a healthy relationship is. Victoria (08:51) Okay, I see what you're saying. Chris (08:54) Right. You know, a healthy relationship Victoria (08:56) Sorry. Chris (08:57) it involves so many things. You have to be vulnerable. You have to be genuine. You have to be willing to disappoint and receive disappointment or have accountability. Tolerating differences, negotiating conflicts, doing things sometimes you don't want to do or you feel frustrated with, but having a balance, reciprocating, independence, allowing for that, having uncomfortable conversations like you know, these are John (09:23) Yeah. Within Chris (09:23) These are not happy things. John (09:26) that context that you were describing, I think you can be happy. You may not feel happy at the time, Victoria (09:35) Mm. John (09:37) but in the greater context, the greater scheme of things, there's a sense of an internal well being. It's a contentment, and so you can feel safe with your partner. And so in that sense, be happy in the relationship because you know that your partner's not going anywhere. Chris (10:03) I love I love this statement that says I think it says it all, good relationship should contribute to your happiness. That's your point, Victoria. but it cannot be Victoria (10:13) Yes. Chris (10:14) responsible for creating it. Victoria (10:18) Yeah, no, yeah, no. We yeah, I'm not dating someone just so that I can be happy because I'm unhappy and sad or whatever. John (10:28) Have you told your have you told your husband that? If you're dating some Victoria (10:32) That what? John (10:33) mention dating, I'm teasing you, dating someone. Chris (10:37) He's making a joke. Everyone in John (10:39) Yeah. Chris (10:39) the world, she is not cheating on her husband. No, no, no. No emails on that. I know that for a fact. I Victoria (10:44) When would I have time to do that? W when would I have time? Chris (10:50) I know I know her schedule all day, John. s segment number two. Although you do go somewhere every day for like an hour and a half, what's up with that? Victoria (11:00) That would be burn boot camp where I sweat my ass off and get in shape. Okay. Chris (11:06) And then she comes back to the office, John, with this hateful look on her face like it was today. I was like, What's I think I actually asked you, what's wrong? John (11:10) Okay, so you're gonna have an eight pack. You're gonna Victoria (11:13) Today was metabolic conditioning. John (11:13) have an eight pack before. Victoria (11:15) I w it was awful and I my legs are so sore right now. Chris (11:23) Let's let's move forward here in happy relationship versus healthy. What is this? So w what do you actually hear in characteristics of a fun relationship? Don't don't try not to look at the the the notes for a minute. what what is healthy in a relationship? What are the things you're looking for? John (11:44) Transparency. Victoria (11:44) Someone that I can laugh with. Chris (11:47) Okay. Let's let's let's play a quick game. John will go next and then Victoria will go and we'll see who has a five second gap loses. All right, go John. What do we look for in a healthy relationship? John (11:56) Okay. Authenticity. Authenti Authenticity. Chris (12:01) All right, Victoria. Victoria (12:03) Fun. Chris (12:04) Yeah, absolutely. John (12:07) spiritual, spirituality. Chris (12:09) Absolutely. Victoria (12:12) good sex. Chris (12:13) There you go. Leave it to Victoria. John (12:19) Someone you can trust explicitly and implicitly. Chris (12:25) Got two. Now you gotta get two, Victoria. Victoria (12:28) someone that you feel safe around. Chris (12:33) And another one? John (12:36) someone Chris (12:36) No, 'cause you gave two, John. John (12:38) okay, another one. Victoria (12:39) me someone who you feel like you can be your true self with. Like that you don't have to like pretend at all. John (12:49) Someone who can be someone can Chris (12:49) Little bit of the same as authenticity, but yeah. John? John (12:52) who can challenge you to be better and to and Chris (12:55) Challenge. Okay. John (12:57) be better together and by yourself. Chris (12:59) And Victoria, you got one more? Victoria (13:03) someone that l likes the same type of food as you. Chris (13:07) And nice. John (13:09) love you. Someone who loves you unconditionally. Chris (13:12) Nice one to end on. John Victoria, maybe not so much. But you we could do this all day because this is easy for us as therapists to think about like what are the types of things that we're really looking for in a relationship? sexual connection, shared experiences, communication, you know, being an individual, having a some sort of boundaries and respecting each other, being able to have hard conversations. And the thing is, is, you know, where is happy? No one said happy in that list, right? 'Cause we're we're literally thinking, well, it's it's almost isn't it an interesting thing that we're literally talking with that and you guys are in a quick back and forth. Happy is the one that's been mentioned, but it's not it well, I I fully expected it not to be a part of our list. John (14:01) Is it is it overarching? In other words, again it's a context, it's a paradigm that you fall into that you're able to be a part of. So everything that Victoria and I mentioned, even good food and good sex, is a part of happiness. Chris (14:20) Yeah. You c you could say that exactly. Yeah, it's Victoria (14:22) Yeah. Chris (14:23) all baked in there. But the trouble is that I'm I'm I'm pointing out, you know, with the idea here, relationships won't make you happy because there's so much that makes you feel unsatisfied at times. And how do you handle that? And if you're if you're if you're not if you're not thinking about all of these nuanced realities, these layered realities of your relationship, then you will you won't believe you won't really be able to cant you know Connect in, you know, with with the idea of well what do I need to do to be well in this rather than let me just go to the next person or the next job, the next, you know, thing. John (15:02) yeah. Yeah. And I and I've actually had I I would hate to say it, but I've had more than several clients who said, Well, I'm just not happy and I'm not in love anymore and we haven't cheated, but we don't you know, and we had we don't love and you know, they so they think and so I'm not happy. Yeah. Chris (15:29) Yeah. I mean I hear that all the time is is kinda the the essence of why I thought starting this month out this way because it's so you know, it I kinda breaks my heart. It and it's it's it's really re repeated. Victoria, in your younger practice, how how much how much couples Victoria (15:45) Mm-hmm. Chris (15:45) canceling are you doing these these days on it? Victoria (15:50) Good amount. I mean, I probably have yeah, Chris (15:52) I thought so. I thought so. Victoria (15:54) and I do a wide variet for range. my gosh, a wide range for right of combined variety and range. yeah, like I do couples and then I also have some couples that I see them both individually and I see them as a couple. so yeah, I mean I definitely I think Chris, hopefully you think that I've come a long way since I first came to you nervous about my very first couple that I was seeing. Chris (16:22) that's why th that's kind of why I asked. It's stuck in my brain. I'm like, wait a minute, I remember that, but that's now that seems so long ago already, doesn't it? Victoria (16:29) Yeah. yeah, I mean and and and I definitely have had, you know, I think I've mentioned before, like, I mean, I've had people storm out, I've had people screaming at each other in session, John (16:41) Yeah. Victoria (16:41) I've had like, you know, people I did t I have told a story about one time I had someone stormed out and then they came back. They didn't stay stormed out. They c they came back. which you know. Chris (16:53) Absolutely. We see those things. I'm sorry, go ahead. Victoria (16:56) No, I'm just saying that kind of was on track for his diagnosis. So Chris (17:02) Yeah, I well right, and there's that too. But you know, when these people are rocking out of the room or they're getting into a very painful space and I just had session today where where both of just go in and out, you know, it can be kinda quick. and it makes for a rocky road. And it's kinda like if this relationship were right, I'd feel happy. I like I that is not like no right? If this were right relationship were right, if it then I would be ha happy and That that sentence I mean, if we're saying if if this relationship had trust involved, if this relationship had emotional safety involved, if this relationship had respect, boundaries, reliability, accepted communication, friendship, if we enjoyed sex together, if we had good color chemistry, then then I'd be happy. Okay, well I can accept that sentence. Yeah, that makes a little bit more sense to me. Victoria (17:53) Right. That's like saying that if I was happy with my body I would be skinny. Chris (18:01) Right. How do you feel about that one? Victoria (18:05) Like I can be happy with my body and not be skinny, but I also like am I doing the things like eating right, you know, exercising, like doing the whole picture of things that like go into someone feeling confident about themselves and or being smaller. So Chris (18:30) Right. That's right. That's that's not gonna be it's so fleeting. You know, I I feel like it can it can be so fleeting of mind, and we just we just drop out and get lost. Go ahead. John (18:43) Well, as someone who is the the the who felt like the father of everybody, but now I'm starting to feel like the grandfather is that the is that you have to make adjust just adjustments for getting older. And so so the way you perceive yourself changes. And so one has to be flexible about that and resilient and So I may not be happy about the fact that I'm now dealing with chronic pain, but I can also realize that I can make meaning out of it and purpose and therefore I have some semblance of happiness. Chris (19:30) Right. And and I think that you're right. There's I mean, John, there's adjustments. You you you and I I think both know, being a little bit older, you y you have adjustments all along the way. I mean you know, and and and you really start hitting major adjustments when you start a having children like Victoria's in the middle of, and then when your body really starts changing in your forties and fifties and you really have to start accepting aging and dealing with empty nesting and and aging parents. I mean those are those are some kind of big hitters. John (20:01) All the transitions that are going on, yeah. Chris (20:04) Yeah, yeah, you know? I mean, but let's end this segment with the th the thought that very much I you know I don't want people to be assessing their happiness and using that as a tool. Ordinary periods of boredom, frustration, grief experiences, stress, sexual difficulty, parenting, exhaustion, Victoria. Any of these things can start to begin looking like evidence that you've chosen the wrong person or that you're with the wrong person or that we have here's another one that happens all the time. We just don't have the proper chemistry. We're two different people. you know, it's like these are the rationalizations people come up with. And I'm kinda like, I love jumping on that one in a counseling session. Like, absolutely, you're two different people. My gosh, you got the spice of life and You can look at different aspects of the same thing and understand things from why would you want to be the same? how boring. Victoria (21:00) go back I go back to I think I've used my thing of like one plus one equals eleven. Chris (21:11) You may have, go ahead. Victoria (21:11) Have I said that? Yeah. But just as a reminder, like one pl it's this concept of called one p saying like one plus one equals eleven, saying that like when you take two people and you add them together and t equal a marriage, you get eleven. We don't become two because I don't join with my partner and to become one number together, like one solid single number together. We become 11. So like I'm still my individual person. You're still your individual person. But like we are a whole number together. But like, yeah, we're two different people. Like, and we can still have our own lives, but like we come together to create a whole number. But we're not like becoming like I'm not attached to my husband's hip. Like Chris (21:58) Mm-hmm. Victoria (21:58) I can do my own things. Like I'm sitting in here on the floor of our bedroom. And He is out there in the living room playing with our kid, like doing dinner and stuff. Like he went and like he goes to work, I go to work. Like he goes hang out with his friends, I go hang out with my friends or do my thing. Like we don't have to do everything together. We are an eleven. Yeah. Chris (22:19) can have differentiation. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So to get us to where I want to get into finding yourself is where we want to move next because a lot of this stuff really relates honestly to how secure you feel just with yourself. So relationships won't do it, right? The second half of our title Finding yourself in a disconnected world is a powerful reality. And I think one of the things that oftentimes gets really missed when we start talking about finding yourself as a corny triggered or short on TikTok or, you know, a YouTube deal or, you know, pop psychology. It's really w when we're talking about finding yourself, I feel like we're really talking about identity and differentiation. And I and I think a lot about the serenity prayer. I quote that all the time in my work 'cause it's so valuable in people. The serenity to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things that I can, and you all know the third line is The most important one. The know the difference is really where it runs. So so let's identify how how can you guys say what is differentiation and identity? Who am I? How does that lead to finding yourself? John (23:45) I think it's a it's a lifelong quest that you do that. And so you're in a sense becoming when I was in my teens, I wanted to find the right person that I could have as a girlfriend and and later as a as a a wife for myself. And so I had all that importance, I put all that emotion into that. And then someone very wise, a pastoral counselor said, Well John Nelson, you need to become the right person. You you have to accept yourself. You have to love yourself. You have to be unconditional in that. And if you're able to love un unconditionally with your flaws and all, then you're gonna love someone else and they will be they will be attracted to you. And that was that was a key thing. Chris (24:38) Hm. Powerful, huh? John (24:39) Yeah, it's powerful for me. And so But it took me a of a a lot of tries and I would say I was happy, unhappy when I tried to force happiness, but I became more content or whole when I was able Chris (25:01) Secure. John (25:02) to say cure let go and just accept my flaws. Chris (25:08) Mm, another another big word. John (25:10) Yeah. Yeah, another big word, yeah. Chris (25:14) Yeah, mean those are the things feeling accepted, feeling grounded, feeling comfortable, feeling comfortable in your own skin. I mean, if it I'm almost going to maintain if you don't feel secure with yourself, you can't be in a secure partnership, in an in depth, detailed relationship. I see your facial expression, Victoria. I gotta say, that that's an awesome what do you what say you? Victoria (25:41) Sorry, like repeat it again what you just said. Chris (25:44) I just said that you can't be in a relationship if you don't really accept yourself in your own skin and it's hard to allow somebody else to do that. It's almost it's almost impossible. Victoria (25:52) Yeah. Well, yeah, because I think that goes back to our original thing of saying, like, I don't get into a relationship because I'm sad and I'm looking for this relationship to make me happy. Like, I mean, I think you can be in a relationship like in the journey of finding yourself, but I don't think you can look at it as like relying on this partner or person to help me find like to be like the reason to like find myself. They can maybe like support me in doing that. But yeah, I mean I think it's a silly thing to think about like, hey, like I'm a hundred percent relying on this person to like help me identify myself if like or whatever. Like again they can Chris (26:48) Or maybe eighty percent. Victoria (26:49) Yeah, like again, they can be there to l help me support. They can help guide me. Kind of like as us as therapists, like we're there to help peop guide people, right? And help people in their own journey towards their goals. Like it's kind of like that. Like, but I'm not here to fix as a therapist. Like I'm not here to fix you. You know? Chris (27:07) We can't. Victoria (27:08) So as a as a partner, like I wouldn't be there to fix you or to find you, you know, find you, find yourself or whatever. But, you know yeah. Chris (27:21) were there to file questions, to field process your thoughts and questions and you know, listen Victoria (27:24) Yeah. Support. Support. Yeah. Like it Chris (27:28) listen to these amazing questions and and and and I'm gonna read them slowly to you, the listener, so that you can really think like honestly, are these questions easy for me to answer? Do I do I just want to dribble off and five come up with five factors for each thing that this guy's reading? Or is it like, dude, I have no idea what I would say to that one. Like Is this easy or difficult for you to answer? What matters to me? Right? What do I enjoy? I have people pausing a long time on therapy with that and I park out there. What are my values? Can you write them down? Victoria (28:10) Mm-hmm. Chris (28:12) What do I believe? What am I responsible for? What am I not responsible for? What relationships matter to me beyond my romantic relationship? And if you're a parent, you don't say you're kids, but let's go beyond the kids. What creates meaning in my life? It these questions. John (28:39) Existential. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (28:42) What do I do with myself when I'm alone? And critically, can I tolerate myself when nobody else is kind of feeding me regulation? It's a fancy way of saying take care of my emotions. Can I can I tolerate myself when I'm alone in my own head? When I'm thinking, yeah. Victoria (28:58) A lot of ADHD people struggle with that. Chris (29:01) I I say again. Victoria (29:03) Yeah, no, I'm sorry, I I kinda interrupted you. I said a lot of ADHD people struggle with that. with like being by ourselves. There's something called like bottle body doubling, that a lot of ADHDers will like participate in to like help get the get things done and because they can't really get it done when they're by when they're by the when they are by themselves. And so yeah, like I mean, and not just ADHD, there's some other like mental health diagnoses of, you know, where people struggle, like, you know, being by themselves. There's literally this recent TikTok challenge where you would take like your ADHD partner and your neurotypical partner, and they would like try to sit still and like not do anything, like not talk to each other, not do anything, just sit beside each other like for five minutes. And the neurotypical person is just chilling. They don't need to be on their phones. They're fine. Like blah blah blah. The ADHD person that they may not be talking, but they're like moving every five seconds. They can't, you know, stay in one position. It's like a lot going on. John (30:13) But you know, just I'm gonna say that that I I know a number of ADHP D people that are are partners or in marriage with neurotypical people and there's something about Victoria (30:30) Mm-hmm. John (30:30) the relationship that there's a sort of a self accept I mean there is an acceptance there and I I could imagine that being ADHD could drive your your your partner bananas if they're neurotypical, but at the same time Victoria (30:48) As I'll say, do you want me to go get my husband? John (30:50) But there's a there's a point where there's something greater than that and that's keeping you together. Chris (30:59) And John, that's what I was wondering in this segment and this element. Like I'm I'm curious to throw this to you in the sense that I would I mean okay, so let me set this up. If you if you look at those questions I just rattled off, you know, what do I enjoy? What what matters to me? What do I believe? What am I responsible for? You know, what creates meaning in my life? I I just I just gotta say those are I mean, we could say those are existential questions, but I I feel like you're s you're you're Your sweet minded soul pastoral spirit, your your time in congregations it has has put you in a unique position in addition to through a therapist's eyes talk about the roles and the differentiation that you have about yourself. Y you you must have a a unique experience of guiding this process for people. You you know what I mean? John (31:52) Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And I think that's that's in terms of reconciliation with couples especially or even doing family therapy is to be able to help people just be able to to Step outside of themselves and see the gifts of of each person in that family and to see it in and I'm gonna use the term context again, is that or a par a greater paradigm and that this makes up the family dynamic. And you can you could have people that are in a in actually a functional family where there is dysfunction going. Because one of the the members of that family is disagreeable or can be challenging. And yet overall every member in that family feels loved and accepted, even the one that is dealing with some dysfunction in her life or his life. I don't know if I'm making sense, but Chris (33:04) So it's a you a perfect sense, but it's interesting that you you you actually went with a lot of family focus and I was actually thinking individual focus, like with people that are struggling with their relationship with God or religious different yeah. John (33:17) Yes. Well, let me go give you another example. There was a I had a a member of my church when I was in Whitfield Estates Presbyterian Church and she was if you could do a C a D S four on her or D S five for you, she would have she would get so affective behaviors and or difficulties, that sort of thing. And so she wasn't relating well with people. She'd get into arguments. And the thing was is keeping her in that congregation and having the congregation support her and be able to help her and give her support and know that they that she was loved. And she was sometimes she was an older lady. She was my age. Now and so she had to do some changes and and understanding that that she put some people off or sometimes alienated people, but say as a congregation as and my duty as a minister would be able to help her enter into the circle. So we circle widening and so we brought her back in. Does that make sense? Chris (34:38) See, that's what I'm talking about, John. Yeah. Those all of those experiences individual with people in a religious John (34:44) I gotta hide that. Yeah. Chris (34:46) Yeah, in a re but particularly as people are struggling with something as intimately close, internal to themselves as religion questions. That's I mean, what what do you believe in? What what makes you passionate? What John (34:59) And that that's the other thing i in terms of because if you're in a a healthy, well balanced church, you you know, where you don't emphasize, overemphasize one one part of the Trinity over another, and you are people that see that it's not about you, it's about we and us that people will be able to feel accepted and supported because they have a relationship to God. And they have a relationship to God not just only vertically, but horizontally with other people. Chris (35:35) And and even again in the atheist world or or agnostics folks, like you know, when you're when you're dealing with these types of things, what John (35:40) I mean. Chris (35:41) you believe, you know, listen to those questions again. You want to find yourself? Okay, ri sit down and write. What matters to me? What do I enjoy? What are my values? What do I believe? What am I responsible for? What am I not responsible for? What relationships matter to me beyond my romantic relationships and or children? What creates meaning in my life? Like those are powerful questions that I would fully expect us to struggle with most of them. John (36:11) If you don't struggle with it, you're not gonna find meaning in your life and it's just gonna be superficial. And I'll go back to one more thing. And I have a client right now I've been working with. He Chris (36:23) See, I knew you were on this element, John. This was your this was your s this was your segment. John (36:28) Yeah. Yeah. He he he he lives superficially. He doesn't have any any sense of saying, Well, I'm a good I'm a good husband, I'm a good man, I'm a good worker, but he doesn't have that inner journey and pilgrimage that he has to make and take. And so he doesn't ask who I'm who am I? He doesn't Say what matters to me. He just knows that he wishes his wife would communicate with him, but he doesn't communicate with his wife. He doesn't communicate with his his workers. And he's worried because communication's a big thing for him because he thinks everybody should communicate with him, but he doesn't communicate himself. And so he lives on Victoria (37:24) Mm. John (37:25) a super it's like the William H. Macy character in Pleasantville. I don't know if you remember that that movie. Yeah. Chris (37:32) Little bit, yeah. John (37:33) Lives very superficially. And doesn't know why he's on Chris (37:37) Yeah, it's sad almost. John (37:38) yeah. He doesn't know why he's unhappy. Chris (37:42) And that's that's the deal. Well you when you don't know why you're unhappy is is kind of what the whole beginning of this conversation is about. Relationships won't make you happy. I you know, we have to work on finding ourselves. And this transition to that is we can also lose ourselves. Let's not kid ourselves. So so let's talk about for a moment how it is possible to lose yourself in a relationship. There's things like enmeshment, that's a word. There's things like codependency, that's a word. There's there Victoria (38:11) Mm. Chris (38:12) there are several ways in the emotion focused therapy model that everyone knows I love so much where where you can re John (38:17) Yeah, talk about enough Victoria (38:18) Mm-hmm. John (38:19) talk about codependency in terms of substance abuse or alcohol abuse. Well yeah. Chris (38:24) Well, absolutely. What we can we can take many forms. I'll I'll I'll let you use that as an example, John, after I say like, you know, when you when you get into statements like please don't leave me or I'll become whatever keeps you here. Don't don't control me or I have I have to distance myself from you to remain myself. You know, these are whoa heavy statements. You know, when when when you apologize and I see this all the time in couples counseling. When you apologize for something and the purpose of that is for peace, that's a problem. Right? That's a pro that is not why we apologize. And on and on it goes. And so yeah, John, codependency and substance abuse, what w use let's use that as a good example. John (39:10) Okay. Well, I was just thinking in terms of some obvious ones like you know, in terms of of of of of apologizing for dad's behavior because he doesn't spend time with the kids or he yells and screams or going out to the A B C store and getting liquor for or that sort of thing. That's an obvious type of codependency. Or to make excuses for him with his employer or that sort of thing or her employer. So and so the person that is codependent, she might say, Well, where will we be if we don't have his income? where will we be if if if we confront him about this about his usage? Where you know, I I I don't know if I'm hitting the mark. Chris (40:03) Yeah. It it can it can no, it can totally go on. John, if I could interject, 'cause I'd like to throw it to Victoria, with a bit of a provocative element here, right? Like, so we're talking about losing yourself, right? And you're a parent to a young child. How easy is it to lose Victoria (40:19) gosh. Chris (40:20) oneself when we are parenting particularly elementary school kids? Victoria (40:29) And mine isn't even in elementary school yet. like, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, you it's super easy. And then you tack on like that with things like postpartum depression and you know, any and then any potentially like you have postpartum depression and then your husband ha has just regular old major depressive disorder or something and like, you know, and then like you're both like going in this like opposite direction and like nothing's happening, you know, or like everything's happening, but then nothing's happening all at the same time. You know? And so yeah, like I mean I think it's super easy to get super lost in and, you know, I've even been working with a some of my individuals and some of my couples. recently on like they have they are about to become empty nesters or they are they have become empty nesters and one of the things we've been talking a lot about is like yeah like in your nest of your home like when your kids leave your spouse is still there so like we gotta water the grass we gotta water the grass of our relationship so that that way like you know We're not one of those stereotypical people who like, you know, their kids move out and now we get a divorce because we haven't been watering our relationship for the past eighteen to twenty to plus years. Chris (42:04) Here's the element, the essence of what it is that we're talking about that I think kind of waters down to the balance, the individuation, the the the the finding of yourself. It it's it's I have a self, you have a self, and we are choosing to build an us. Right? Think about that because I think that. Abandonment people get fearful of like not being together. Engulfment people get fearful of like I need to be myself. You're you're you're taking over. And here's the here's the essence of it. I have a self, you have a self, and we're choosing to build an us. There is an entity that is together, but where there's two selves. It's it's I I just had a conversation about this earlier today. You know, people can get very, very concerned about either way. But we sh re but that's where the balance and the respect comes in. So it is possible to not only find yourself, to keep yourself, to love another person, and have a healthy relationship, but it isn't necessarily just based on on happiness. All right. I want us to be thoughtful here for for a moment. We we've started a segment of panel questions, and I and I want us to kind of just wrap with this. So we we're gonna try to be quick with the didactic learning stuff that we talk about on the show, disseminating information, so that we can really get into like discussion. So here's here's our attempt to do that. Here here's the question for us guys. How much of our happiness should reasonably expect your partner to literally like provide? Now, provide's probably the the the the optimal word there, but how much is it reasonable to expect they provide us? Victoria (43:47) What specifically happiness? Chris (43:48) Yeah, with with with feeling yeah. How much Victoria (43:52) None. Chris (43:52) of your happiness should reasonably you expect your romantic partner to provide? Victoria (43:58) None. Zero percent. Chris (43:59) None? Yeah, okay. I think that's a pretty hard standard. keep Really? John (44:05) Well, Victoria (44:05) To be maybe is that realistic? No, it okay. John (44:06) I think I think the partner has to be responsive. So Victoria (44:10) Is that realistic? No. Zero percent is not realistic, but do I wish that it was like that, that we could provide our own happiness and not yes. Okay, that's where my idealistically it would be a zero. Chris (44:22) So the ideal goal is zero. Victoria (44:25) I would say like fifteen percent. John (44:27) Okay, I had a client Chris (44:27) Okay. John. Yeah. John (44:28) who is middle-aged, and his wife is middle-aged, and they hadn't had sex in seven years, eight years. And he he wants to feel fulfilled and happy. Okay. So practically speaking, he is responsible for his own happiness, but at the same time, it's incumbent upon the partner if she could if she could get past her own barriers and her own fear. fears to find out why she is so reluctant to have sex and have intimacy. And it's not just it's not the physical act, it's intimacy, which I think leads to physical sex. Chris (45:13) It it it does. And and John, yeah, I mean that's that's that's such a tricky bounce, right? I mean, John (45:18) I just Chris (45:18) you know, w where's where's the number? How does that go? What do you think about you know, I I I think I'd like to pin us down to a percentage, right? Like, you know, to give us a bit of an idea. I I and I wonder even Victoria if like zero is an ideal version of that. I mean, I think that you know, we do want our partner to you know, I mean I A big Steelers fan, obviously, right now. I I I don't want my partner to be mean about the Steelers. Like that's not cool. John (45:45) I'm gonna say twenty five twenty-five percent. I say twenty-five percent because in in in this terms, and that is because yes, you are for the great majority of of your happiness, you are responsible for it, but there has to be an interaction between partners or spouses. They ha you know, your intimate relationships. There has to be some give and take. And so there is sometimes reasons. Though I I tend to be you know, I I I think the idea is the people that are in conflict should s would stay together and grow. But at the same time there are times when partners have to to split. Chris (46:33) That is absolutely a real too. It's it's it's absolutely a real. I mean, a devastating, abusive relationship, you know, talk you know, a level of toxicity, you know, all of that. But yeah, I mean I I want to stay on this a little further, Victoria, and and play around with that because it's it really is an interesting thought. I mean, is the ideal zero so that ideally you create and manage your own happiness and or we could throw in the existential experience with God or religion. But I I I Victoria (47:05) Right. Chris (47:06) I've never thought I mean it's an interesting dynamic. I'm I'm curious to push back on that and see what you think so that is there a fear that's there? Is there a distrust? And I'm not saying you individually, but do people Victoria (47:16) Yeah. Chris (47:17) do people struggle? I mean, I know when they say I do, I mean knees are buckling on the altar. And but yet they they've done all of this, they're clear and they're happy in their relationship to use that word, right? but so Victoria (47:29) Right. Chris (47:30) is there a fear in like expecting that? How do we create expectations? That's another dynamic with it. Victoria (47:35) Well, yeah, I mean and and I think it's an interesting I don't even know if you want to call it a concept, way of th thought, whatever. But like yeah, I mean I say like zero, but I think that's I'm would I say like ideally it would be zero, I'm also like I'm including I'm talking about like your own individual happiness. Like I agree with John that like there has to be a part of it where like your partner responds and like is or is responsive to you, right? When we when these things happen or like when you are yourself or whatever, you know, like when you're happy or and when you're creating conversations and things like that. But I think I more mean like if we're going back to like expectations of like how much is my partner supposed to make me happy. Well, I mean, then you could also argue with that like it could be a hundred percent, you know, because like when you look at your relationship just that, not your whole life happiness, but like your happiness within a relationship, then sure you could say that percentage is like should be a hundred and thousand out of a hundred, you know, like because yeah, I don't want to be with someone who like I don't like and who I don't enjoy spending time with, like, you know. I could never be married to a Steelers fan. I would be miserable. Like, you know you know, like Chris (49:01) Now that's going too far. But actually that's what you I was just listening to you and thinking, you know, the the the pr is is the percentage maybe even high? You know, because I I'm in the stage of life right now being, you know, divorcing and post and looking at what's the deal. I mean, my whole when I'm supposed to have a whole new life partner. Like, wow, what a what a crazy thing it is in my head to to do that. But I'm looking at Victoria like people that are gonna be ha you know, that are gonna be nice to me. I'm looking for people that are, you know, they're gonna be they're gonna be thoughtful. I I want them to have some compassion for me. Like I said, I don't need you to be a Steelers fan, but I but I but I need you to not be really mean about it. And I know that's a trifling example, but if you're picking at me and telling me I'm stupid and kind of putting characteristics on me because I'm wrapped up on a podcast, I got a Steelers hat on, a jersey, and I'm getting ready for the game, and you tell me that that was stupid, John (49:51) No, I think that's very winsome. Chris (49:54) I'm gonna have a problem with that. You know? John (49:55) That's that's very arresting, Victoria (49:56) Well and I think it's John (49:58) you know. Victoria (50:00) Well, I think it's also when you look at like and this may be digging too far into it, but like when you look at like the religion or the politics side of it, like, you know, when you look at relationships and it's you know, you find it's harder for people to like be of two opposite religions and in a in a in a marriage together or to be of two opposite like political views, like I don't I mean, this might be a personal thing, like I don't want to be in a marriage where my vote is canceling out my husband's vote, you know? Like I wanna be Chris (50:33) Yeah. Victoria (50:34) like a, you know, for the most part, like on the big major things that like my husband and I are like on the same viewpoint of as that, right? John (50:44) Now that now that might be a do or die for for some people, but for me that's not do or die. Okay. I Victoria (50:51) Right. John (50:52) I want to be compatible in other ways, not necessarily politically. It I would find it stimulating. Yeah. Yeah. Victoria (50:58) Well, and I'm not just saying it's just and I'm not saying it's just politically, but yeah, I mean you do have people who like, for example, there might be someone who's like, you know, hardcore, like I could not, you know, date a Duke fan, you know, as a UNC fan. Like that is just John (51:16) What? Victoria (51:16) like a deal breaker and like, you know, and then you have other people who like me who could give two craps about that. Like I don't give a crap who what If you're a UNC, I'm a UNC fan by marriage, but like, you know, other than that, like and so I think it's yeah, it's not just one there's like a multifaceted thing that goes into like, hey, you know Chris (51:42) So here's here's an interesting here's an interesting thought that that occurs to me listening to the two of you all. you know There's is there a difference maybe in the word generating happiness with me versus I'm looking for you to create happiness with me? Because the generation right. Right. I Victoria (52:03) That that Chris (52:05) I was listening to you two go there and I'm kind of like, we want a high percentage of generating with me, but it doesn't have to be a hundred. I mean, I'm probably good with like seventy, you John (52:14) Mm-hmm. Chris (52:15) know, or sixty even on a on a rough stage in life. Eighty would be great. If you're generating it with me, but to create it, that's gotta be like that's on me. I'm gonna do my happiness and wellness. And maybe I want you to contribute like ten percent, I require, you know, John from others, right? So I don't know. Is that a landing spot or how's that sound? John (52:38) I think that's a good landing spot. Chris (52:41) Right. Sunshine agrees. You gotta see YouTube live, Victoria (52:41) I'm trying to grieve. Chris (52:45) you got Victoria's cat going on here. She's a cute cat and she's she's well behaved. All right. Practical questions. Here's a segment before we get to the shrink wrap up of the show where we're talking to you through the screen. We're just thinking about this topic, right? The idea of of relationships that won't make you happy. It doesn't create it, but finding yourself and feeling as disconnected as we can. Combining all of these themes together, these practical questions are for you to think about, you know, with us. who who Victoria (53:18) I'll go first. Chris (53:19) Victoria wants to go first. Victoria (53:20) Sure. only because I gotta get out of here after this or like soon. So okay, so you might be thinking or you might be wondering to yourself, like, am I unhappy with my relationship specifically? Or you might think to yourself, on the other hand, are you unhappy with your life, but like expecting your relationship to fix it? And I think that that's a key difference is like kind of how I've mentioned earlier in this podcast that like, you know, we don't want to expect that our relationships are going to fix us, just like how your therapist is not meant to fix you, but to help guide you into working towards the goals. And as Chris just stated, like we want to like. cultivate a time of happiness, but I don't want to be the creation of my partner's happiness. Chris (54:23) Let me first. I have a practical question for you to think about, or second, I can go for a second. we've talked a lot about relationships today, and on this show we've talked a lot about emotion focused therapy. So I'd like you to really think about those qualities. What qualities make up the definition of your relationship being healthy, therefore intrinsically happy? I I want us to be careful about Feeling unhappy as the measurement. It's gonna be times in your life in a long period of relationship or a long relationship where you have periods of that relationship that don't feel good. They don't feel well, they feel miserable. Child rearing was was really challenging for us as a stage. I mean, I I identified it as the lost decade, and I talk about it on the show. So what qualities make your relationship healthy? Not the periods, not how you feel happy or not. What qualities are? And John, I think you have a question for folks. John (55:26) Well yeah, I'm I'm s I'm thinking about people if you've ever felt that you've gradually given up parts of yourself in order to maintain your relationship. And what you what what I see that as happening is, you know, if if you have a partner or a spouse that says or even with a parent or that says, you know, i you you feel like you're going to accommodate them because they make demands on you and you find yourself, your soul being sucked dry like a vampire, you know, of of your life, the very life of yourself, and you find life is gray and dreary, it's because you have given up a part of yourself. I challenge you, I think we all challenge you to Not give up on yourself, but instead find your meaning from the depths of yourself. Seek help, whether it's through counseling, whether it's through worship at church or synagogue or mosque, you go and you find that purpose and reason, and you will be able to celebrate it. And hopefully you will be able to differentiate yourself from that that. that sucking sound or that ro that very dysfunctional relationship and find some peace in yourself and wholeness.
Chris (00:00) Shrink wrap up, my friend. Okay, John (00:01) So no, I've got another one that I'm Chris (00:05) you got another one. I love that. All right. Neil, program question. Did we just restart or start over? What happened there? Neil (00:14) The wrong button. We're good. Chris (00:15) he killed us and started us back. Now he's in for it. We got some editing to do on this one. John (00:20) so they won't get the the mini string wrap I gave. So Chris (00:23) All right, here at the Yeah, he did. He caused himself some grief. here at the end we're gonna do the com the the segment that we end up with is called the shrink wrap up. It's a friendly competition. John Pope loves this section. He tries to maintain it, he doesn't, but it's designed to give you our thoughts throughout the show and how we wanna summarize takeaways or thoughts or important important points. So it's a friendly competition that Neil gets to judge. Who made the points for the week and at the end of the year will tally it up and maybe you'll get some daps, some hugs and something cool like the Hillbilly Moonshine Stein Neal that I still have in my possession. You know that, right? Victoria (01:03) I love that. Neil (01:03) It's long year, we'll see what happens. Chris (01:07) I'm I am playing Victoria (01:07) Can I go first? 'Cause then I really need to hop off of here. Chris (01:10) better. Miss Victoria, hit it, babe. Victoria (01:13) mine is just, you know, I always keep it short and sweet, is that you do not have to rely on your partner to make you happy. They can help like curate and like give you opportunities and like help, you know, in that side of it, as Chris said earlier. Sorry, Chris, stealing from you, but they are not like the sole creation of your happiness, that you can find that within yourself and that you can still have a happy and successful relationship. as you are happy within yourself. Chris (01:49) Love that. Victoria (01:50) That's all I got. Okay. Bye guys. Have fun. Chris (01:52) Have a good evening and thanks John (01:52) Right. Chris (01:53) for hanging out. We'll let you know if you want tomorrow. Mr. John Pope, do we gotta Victoria (01:56) Thanks. Chris (01:57) do rock, paper, scissors? What do we gotta do? John (01:59) No, I'll d I'll do it. I I'm gonna be a little contrarian here. That's what I wanted to say before is that I wanna make a distinction between happiness and joy. And I think we've we've a lot of what you have what we have discussed has been is really joy because happiness gives you the idea that it it it's something that is just Just that it it's a material thing in some ways. I'm not ti but joy is something that is transcendent. And we we choose happiness when we sometimes when we are actually starving for joy. We pursue comfort and pleasure and contentment, but these never fully satisfy our deepest human longings, that ache, that is the joy which pierces our soul. And that is joy or fulfillment or happiness that we've talked about, where we can be a stimulation to each other or stimulate each other to achieve a a a greater maturity. Chris (03:17) Ooh, Mr. Pope is bringing it today. I'm gonna qualify that by saying, Neil, you might have a tough one on this one because that was really strong, John. And I want to say that the the show that it does relationships hopefully bring you joy instead of the sheer oblique happiness. But finding yourself, knowing yourself, being grounded in yourself, comfortable in your own skin with confidence, self positivity. With with a with a passion for what you know it makes you you, that enables you to really be able to love and be loved. Listen to these chapter titles. If you can learn how to be alone, then you will learn how to be together. Share your life with your wife, but your wife cannot be your life. Your spouse cannot create happiness for you, literally is a title in my book. Develop your own identity, one set apart as one half of a married couple. That's finding yourself. Chapter twenty seven acceptance of your spouse begins with acceptance of yourself. Part of not feeling alone in a marriage requires not being afraid of being alone. Chapter thirty five. Listen, I didn't plan that way, but this is clearly a very strong. wrong element of healthy relationships and I would say not just in marriage but in any close attachments that you have where you're finding happiness is the main goal. Listen to those individual pieces. Feel resilient and capable, like you have agency in your life. Lots there. And lots there. John (04:56) So to you get the book to get the book, your book through a therapy. No, you g you Chris (05:01) Yeah, it doesn't matter. John (05:03) you go to you do a Google search on it, right? And you get it. All right. Chris (05:06) Yes, John. Yes, John. Through a therapist eyes. But and it's on the websites and stuff. Neil, what's up, man? I was that that one that one went a little deep. Neil (05:18) Yeah, I went deep with that one. I mean, I think there's a lot of stuff that people have to understand these relationships. I think you guys did a great job on the show today. Hopefully the people come away better in their relationship because they'll be better with themselves. So, I mean, for y for the shrink wrap up And you gu y I hate it when you guys bring it. I like it when one of you guys John (05:37) Is it okay to do it time? Neil (05:39) kinda just do it quick and it's like that's easy, but in this one, I have to give it to John 'cause I do think that people are missing joy and I think that's a lot of the problems. They they supplement happiness for joy and that there's just it's not a deepness that people need nowadays. So Chris, yours was amazing. I loved it, but I just think John (06:00) Yeah. Neil (06:00) there's so much missing right now that s superficial happiness is trying to fill the place of of deep down internal joy. Chris (06:08) Yeah. No, that's that was a tough one. I knew it was 'cause I knew what I was bringing and you know, but jeez. What's that, John? John (06:11) Well you you made this this for me, didn't you, Chris? You made this you made this for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (06:19) No. That's awesome. Well, we're doing it together. This is the human emotional experience, which we really want to figure out together. Tell a friend. let help us grow. Help us find this. Because I think this episode, you know you you know somebody that you could share this episode with that is absolutely feeling lonely and struggling in their heart and really, really looking for happiness in the wrong places and missing the idea of what having joy is in their life. Well done, John. Thanks, Neil. Guys, we're out. John (06:45) I'll turn Chris and yeah. Chris (06:47) We'll see you next week. Take care and be well. Go Steelers. John (06:50) Yes, go Stealer. Chris (06:53) Bye. John (06:54) So