When you are in a close relationship with anyone, there is the reality that when confronted by the other, you will be quick to get on the defensive. This is something that can cause a major problem in a relationship. You have to work on yourself to control your reaction because what is said is not always what you perceive it to be.
Tune in to see Why You Don’t Take Things Personally Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Listen for the following takeaways from the show:
- When do fights tend to occur in marriage?
- How defensive do you have tendencies with?
- With this skill, being compassionate and supportive become possible…ultimately selflessness.
- When this happens it is not about the topic but what you are saying about me.
- Great link about 7 Causes for Conflict in Marriage and How to Resolve Them.
- This can create bad vibes in a relationship: When You Take Things “Too Personally” in Relationships
- You need to take stock on where you are in those moments.
- Maintenance therapy as a couple is something to think about when you find yourself continually taking things personal.
- What do you need to do to reach the goal of avoiding definesiveness.
- Episode 214 on Selflessness is a great place to start.
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Episode #221 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello there. This is Through a Therapist’s Eyes and I’m looking up in my calendar to figure out what date it is because I think it’s the six 13th. I knew that wasn’t 16th. I have missed three days. . Wow. That does tell you a little bit about my week weekend. Tomorrow
Victoria Pendergrass: is St. Patrick’s
Chris Gazdik: Day. Oh, is it really how St.
Patrick’s Day to everybody? Sure. Wear your green tomorrow
John-Nelson Pope: or I will for sure keep his colors. Can’t be seen for, there’s a bloody law again. A wearing of the green.
Chris Gazdik: Wow. Happy St. Patrick’s Day from tomorrow. If you, Pope, who is over there, you need to calm down over there. , miss Victoria? Yes. Pendergrass is with us as well.
So this is episode 2 21 where we’re gonna be talking about don’t take things personally in your marriage. And I think that people will see that title and be like, , what do you say, Victoria? . . [00:01:00]
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, I said I, if I’m honest with myself, I probably do. My husband or I would probably say that I take things personally.
I think
Chris Gazdik: this is a prominent, prominent thing in marriage that. We really want to try to gear differently. Bear down to limit the effects of this in our lives because we’ll get into it. But it’s a big deal. It is a big deal. This is where you get personal insights from a panel of therapists in your own time, in your car and at home.
We do not deliver therapy services in any way with this show. Please subscribe to YouTube live that we are starting to do now. Instead of Facebook. We have officially switched over trying to get those subscriptions up. It helps us a big deal, five stars, apple reviews, contact at through a therapists eyes.com is all that cool stuff that you can help us out with the human emotional experience, which we endeavored to figure out together.
Uh, John, do you ever. [00:02:00] deal with people taking things personally in a marriage Oh, yes. In
John-Nelson Pope: therapy. Well, I’m, you’re looking at somebody that takes things personally in marriage, do you? Yeah. You know, but I, I have in my work as well.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s funny because I, I sort of, I, I don’t know, can I do this on air? I guess I can.
I’ve idealized you guys a little bit. I I’m gonna come clean, like Oh, his marriage. Yeah. It’s, it’s so awesome to see the way you guys interact and, and I mean this to be a compliment. Well, thank
John-Nelson Pope: you. Now, 41 years of it was like what you were saying. Yeah. When you were newly, we, right. Part of it is the process of learning.
and to to, to share and to self-sacrifice. Mm-hmm. . And sometimes it’s the, that a person says, well, I’m going to make some decisions and I’m gonna make them without letting, you know, and then you get, you get your [00:03:00] feelings hurt or something like that. And part of this is opening up communication. Just being able to, to, to, to share that.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, I think some people might look at this title and say like, well, well, am I, like, am I not supposed to take things personally? Like, am I, like, I thought that I was supposed to take things personally in a marriage. Like some people might think that.
Chris Gazdik: Well, that’s an interesting point. I, I, uh, uh, yeah. Let me circle right back around that.
Okay. Because John, I mean, I think Yeah. And you know, there, there’s a lot of things that go into that and I, I appreciate your, you know, your moment there because I think that there’s a lot of fear that goes around with people and, you know, somebody’s been married 41 years Yeah. You know, can highlight the fact that that wasn’t always the case.
Right. That wasn’t
John-Nelson Pope: always, it’s been a growth, it’s been an evolution. Yeah. And part of that is, is also that when you are in a new [00:04:00] relationship, Everything is so fresh and it’s new and, um, ever you think that the stakes ride on everything that you do or if you make a decision or if you’re, somebody’s unhappy with something like that.
But if you could look in terms of a long view, you can, you’re able to be able to, to make it through those difficult times.
Chris Gazdik: And I almost feel like you’re just talking as a man, as a, as a, as a citizen, as a, as a person. That’s, you know, as a husband rather than almost a clinician. That’s the vibe that I get.
Yeah. Cuz I know I’ve spoken to you before. Yeah, yeah. Well,
Victoria Pendergrass: and also makes me wonder, um, circumstantially, like some of the things that he’s talking about, you know, like, I got married and then six months later the, the world shut
Chris Gazdik: down. Uhhuh . And so yeah, that, you guys have a weird story. Start my first three
Victoria Pendergrass: years of marriage.
Basically have been during a pandemic. Yeah. Wow. In [00:05:00] which we bought a house, got a dog, had a baby. Like, you know, she’s, and so we’re experience, and I’ve had conversations with my mom about this too, about like how different our marriage might, like, how different our marriage might, would, uh, would be if when we got married.
The world did shut down six months later, but, and so, or roughly six months later. And so it’s always interesting. I wonder, you know, how not
John-Nelson Pope: well look at all the things you accomplished in those three years.
Chris Gazdik: A lot. I mean, it’s phenomenal. One, I think we’ve agree, John. And that’s, that’s what I was thinking as you were talking Victoria.
You know, it’s like everyone has their unique story and it’s, and it’s your story that you create together and there, and there doesn’t have to be any hard and fast, you know. Guaranteed rules about that, like Uhhuh, . Mm-hmm. . It’s, it’s, it’s a really a creative living Yeah. Experience, isn’t it? And y’all have accomplished so much and done so much at such an early time because it’s been so [00:06:00] different, I guess, right?
Yeah. When I’m
Victoria Pendergrass: interested as we go through, um, kind of our outline for today and go through this, um, episode, if there’s things that kind of resonate with me and my marriage, because our first three years of marriage were during a pandemic where, you know, thankfully I, we both didn’t have to stay at home at work.
Yeah. And work only my husband had to do that. I still had to get up and go to work every day. Um,
Chris Gazdik: but yeah, my wife’s always says, you know, one of her two worlds colliding. Yeah. You know, I’m not
Victoria Pendergrass: sure what it would’ve been like if. We had to do, although I, in our current living space, we also didn’t have a HIPAA compliant area for me to do
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, so let’s get going with here. I forgot to do the three questions in the beginning. Oh yeah. When do fights tend to occur in marriage? I think it’s an interesting thing to think about and how defensive do you have tendencies with, right. Do you, do you get tendencies towards defensiveness and [00:07:00] then with this skill, with being compassionate and supportive, become possible ultimately the concept of selflessness.
Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: Question? Sure. When you say fights, can you, do you want to give a little parameters to that?
Chris Gazdik: Uh, no, go ahead. You do . What do you mean? We’re not
John-Nelson Pope: talking about physical al altercations. Correct. Obviously, I think Right. What we’re doing is, um, where you’ve, where you think that perhaps maybe you’ve not been heard.
and then, uh, or, or you may have, uh, been ignored or, and, and sometimes you will think that maybe it was done on purpose, but that’s, to me, my experiences as a clinician is that a lot of times it’s not done intentionally, but it is, it is almost a misreading and understanding [00:08:00] what someone else says or thinks.
Exactly. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I mean, that’s what we mean in clinician world, John. So I, I knew we would be on the same page with that and I, I didn’t answer because I, I, I went, I knew we’d go further right here in the sense of, you know, what are the high conflict areas in, in marriage? Mm-hmm. is, is something that we think about.
And I think these are the things that a lot of times kids or kids, uh, couples come to us. You know, dealing with in, in their marriage. And, and these are the areas where we fight about finances, sexuality, career, kids, you know, in-laws. Uh, these are the, the religions. Sometimes these are the primary type things that people really feel like are the problem, but hundreds of times over.
Exactly. I see your face, John. Right. You know, that’s really not the problem. Mm-hmm. a thousand times over. And, you know, I talk a lot about emotion focused therapy with couples work that I do. Mm-hmm. , it’s a staple with John Gottman’s work. Mm-hmm. , it’s the emotions [00:09:00] that are going on Yeah. Underneath these issues.
Is that what your facial, that’s exactly expression is. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, go a little further with
John-Nelson Pope: that. No, no. I’m, I’m fine with it. I just, uh, I, I just sense that, uh, that when people, they, those are templates, basically those little slots that are filled because. Where people finances, for example. That’s a big one, obviously.
Yeah. And because people feel like, am I gonna have a house or a home or something like that because of, there may be in a sense, uh, a different viewpoint of how to use money and, uh, what are your values
Chris Gazdik: and, but aren’t, doesn’t that get to the emotions underneath it? Definitely, yeah, for sure. You know, definitely the topic usually is not a big deal.
Yeah. You know, the, the topic is something you work out as a matter of fact, you know, just to, to demonstrate that like Right. You know, Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace [00:10:00] University, I love referring people to that. And that’s because, you know, it did such a good job. Of not really helping you figure out a budget and how to do math.
I mean, it’s, you know, you got 1,500 bucks. You have this bill, this bill, this bill that bill. You do sub traction and you figure out what’s priority. Mm-hmm. , I mean, it, it’s not complicated, but he helps the couple work together to connect and to, to, to work out this, this process. To to
John-Nelson Pope: go in the dance together.
Do in the dance. Yeah. That’s right. By the way, I, I recommended Ramsey
Chris Gazdik: today. Oh, did you? Literally today. Yeah. Awesome. I love
Victoria Pendergrass: it when our
Chris Gazdik: sessions. What we have fresh things. Talk about what we deal with this stuff. Like really, I mean, that’s why we do these topics. I, it’s funny, I was thinking about why did I create this topic and I, I did the show prep probably, um, a couple of, of weeks ago, a few weeks ago on this one.
And, uh, I forget why, but there was actually a reason why with this one, I think it was a part of my, my session and I’m like, oh my God. Taking things [00:11:00] personally. Mm-hmm. did, why, why haven’t I talked? Why haven’t we talked about that yet? So that’s, that’s part of what it is here. So look, so finances, sexuality, kids, parenting.
We did some, some, some step parenting shows recently. Like, oh my gosh, the boundaries issues with that, right? How many times and how do people take these things personally? Mm-hmm. , does that not get at what creates the conflict or John fight, right? That’s right. . How does that work? How, how, how do people can, can you guys think about how in sessions we’ve seen people taking things personally?
On these major issues, finances, for instance, or whatnot.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, I’ve seen people just as soon as they start talking about finances and they’re sitting on the couch, this couch that we are like, we are as close to this as I possibly care. Right. Exactly. Exactly. They absolutely Body language. Body language is a big thing.
So basically what they’re saying is, I don’t want to engage. Yeah. I, I want to [00:12:00] disengage, I want to, I wanna fly around from this. And they’re afraid of conflict, um, as well. And so what you’ll do is you’ll get defensive sometimes. Mm-hmm. , some people will get very defensive and take it personally. What are you saying about me?
Chris Gazdik: What are you saying there is about me? Exactly.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. So what do you say when a client. Comes in and they, first thing they do is sit on opposite ends of the couch. Like a topic hasn’t even been brought up. And they’re like, , they’re already at opposite, like hugging each side of the, the
Chris Gazdik: armrest. I used to play a little bit of game.
My office isn’t set up now, but I, not a game, but I used to pay attention to like, you know, a single seat. Yeah. I had more seating options here. I don’t as much in a smaller office, but you know who, who goes for the single seat? Who goes for the big couch with the space or the loveseat? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. You know, of course people feel like I have my chair, and so they’re not allowed to sit.
There you are. I sit in all [00:13:00] sorts of places, but there, there are some telling things that you can observe. What do you do though? Just make the observation and begin going, right? Yeah. Yeah. . Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these are, these are the, these are the things that I really want to get us to be thinking about.
I is, is not, you know, the issue of. Of the topic, cuz the topics really almost don’t matter. It’s what are you experiencing? And John, I love the way you characterize that. Like what are you saying about me when a conversation is up about parenting or sex is a big one too. Mm-hmm. , I, I don’t know about you, but I, I, yeah, I see this in sessions a lot, you know, and, and it’s easily experienced that when one doesn’t want to have sex, and by the way, that is not always the woman.
No. There are so many engulfment men out there that just don’t [00:14:00] care about sex. They’re just not that geared towards that. It’s, it
Victoria Pendergrass: doesn’t drop. But yeah, it’s super easy for either spouse or partner or whoever to say, oh. , you don’t wanna have sex with me. Like, right. What is it about me that is turning you off or that’s making you say no?
You know, it’s so easy to do that and I must be horrible. A lot of times it connects to what we just talked about, which is self-esteem and, you know, absolutely.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. What’s that, John?
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, it must, I must be horrible or I’m repulsive or right something. You don’t want to be with me. You think
Chris Gazdik: I’m ugly. You think I’m ugly?
And
Victoria Pendergrass: you know, you don’t find me attractive
Chris Gazdik: messages that we get into the messages that we take, the messages that we love, love me, . Right? So let’s, let’s go to taking things personally and, and how it creates bad vibes. Incidentally, I, I, I evidently, I don’t know if I was tired when I did the show prep, uh, because I had a lot of articles that [00:15:00] I was like, oh, put that one on there.
Oh, I’ll put that one on there too. That one. So this is a good one to go to the website and click, and Neil puts up the show notes to click these things to check. Things out. They, they, they looked pretty good to me. Um, what do you think is one of the biggest things that gets created when, think about it, the topic is up.
You say something, I get this view about what are you saying about me? And then I’m going to return fire. And a lot of times I’m gonna return fire with blame. Uhhuh. . Yeah. You get right smack into a, I’m right, you are wrong. And who’s it blame or are you blaming me? But I’m gonna turn around and blame you and Victoria.
That will happen in the first five minutes of oftentimes therapy sessions. Mm-hmm. , when they start. , boom.
Victoria Pendergrass: Blaming the other person? Yeah. Or what about blaming [00:16:00] themselves?
Chris Gazdik: Not it ? Not usually.
Victoria Pendergrass: No, not usually. Okay. Good to know. Yeah. .
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: I, I’ve seen probably, I, I, I don’t, I don’t think I’ve ever seen anybody in couples counseling that has ever said, well, I went to blame right from the beginning that, yeah.
And I That’s, that’s tough.
Victoria Pendergrass: Oh, I mean, I’ve actually, okay. Well, I’ve actually had people
Chris Gazdik: say that , I mean, I’m not gonna say it hadn’t happened , but an overwhelming majority of the time, you will absolutely have what Craig, the co-host that used to be on the show, described very honestly and readily. He’s like, look, We went to the couple’s counseling thing and I was very excited about this cuz we’re gonna go to the counselor and the counselor’s gonna fix her up and we’re gonna be so much better.
Yeah, that’s what I hear a
John-Nelson Pope: lot. If, if my [00:17:00] fixer, fixer, I had somebody look and point at the, at, at his and actually
Chris Gazdik: do that physically fixer.
Victoria Pendergrass: Yeah. I’ve had, I’ve had a couple come in and the spouse, the reason that they were there, I mean, the spouse that was said, you know, that I’m, while we’re here, it’s, it’s me.
Like I know that I’m the reason that we brought here today, so maybe I’ve just gotten different. No,
John-Nelson Pope: I, I, I hear that. But if you, if you go a little deeper right. It ends up as being somehow the other person has caused this. And so if they had understood or something like that Yeah. Then they, okay. And so, so.
I, I will take that back a little bit to the extent Yeah. That, that, uh, but there’s a, a, a lack of insight that the person that that’s having that I mean, may not be able to see. Well, [00:18:00] I’ve actually have a part in this. They, they may say it superficially, but to go da deeper.
Chris Gazdik: No, no. Right, John, I mean, you jumped on it and I, I I won’t take it back because we can, we hear that phrase, that statement, but a perfect example is like, okay, we’re here.
I know I screwed up. I haven’t had, I created problems in this marriage and stuff cuz I went out and I had an affair, but it was seven years ago. Mm-hmm. . And this was the factor. And that was the factor. And there was never this, and every time that we, now you go into like all gotcha things that are uhhuh from the, the emotional perspective that are, are unresolved and just raging.
Mm-hmm. . So Yeah. Even when you see that, a lot of times I agree John couldn’t agree more. Mm-hmm. . We will go in on a more deeper level. There generally is not initially a whole lot of emotional maturity mm-hmm. that people are able to see their own culpability very easily. I think that’s a fair statement.
Yeah, that’s a fair statement. Okay. Yeah. You know, and, and, and, and, and partly because that’s, [00:19:00] and this is not
John-Nelson Pope: blaming blaming our clients, right? No, but it’s, it’s human. It’s what humans do. Exactly. We’re very good
Chris Gazdik: at this. John. You and I are lockstep, so you Right. And I are lockstep today, honestly, because Exactly.
That’s what I was getting ready to say. Like this is normal. Like the, we are ego-centric to use a fancy term mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. , we get consumed with our own thoughts and our own perception and we easily see what you are doing. Mm-hmm. . So defaultly and blame that and see that because that’s so evident to us.
You know, how hard it is to be insightfully grounded in about self. , gosh, you, you have to do some, some work to get there. You have to be purposeful about paying attention to ourselves. So
John-Nelson Pope: it’s intentionally being objective about oneself. That is a
Chris Gazdik: hard and hard thing. Unnatural uhhuh, state to be in. Yeah. Yeah.
Because
John-Nelson Pope: in a sense we’re, we’re still a little baby in the [00:20:00] crib, you know? And, uh, the world is sadly put everything in your mouth and sadly, absolutely. But we’re just much older extensions of
Chris Gazdik: that. Put everything in our mouth. Coffee. Yeah. Beer and water and wine and ice. Tea. Yeah. What’d you say? Food. Food, okay.
What else is the bad vibe that happens for you? Stemming from, from taking things personally? The next thing was really on my mind was, we’ve talked about implicit biases before. Oh boy. What happens when we have these things at in operation? . Mm-hmm. , like, part of what we’re trying to do here is understand why this happens.
Right? Right. So that we prevent this from happening when you have an anticipated belief about something. Mm-hmm. , when you have a knowledge in your mind. Of, of, of foreshadowing. And an ability to just, I know what you’re gonna say [00:21:00] before you say it. Yeah. My,
John-Nelson Pope: my little term, uh, three years into the marriage was typical.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, that’s what you would say
John-Nelson Pope: to Joy. I would say to Joy. Typical. It’s just like your parents or just like your family. Hey, I made it right. I’m 40, I’m 41 years into marriage now, and we’re happier than ever . So, so we, yeah. I
Chris Gazdik: love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I was,
John-Nelson Pope: I was a typical, I was, I was an
Chris Gazdik: arse.
So she would say something, something would be going on and you’d just be like, oh yeah. Typical. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. And that’s, that is let’s, you’re predicting the future. You’re seeing things that are, that haven’t even happened. And it wasn’t her, I wasn’t seeing
John-Nelson Pope: her right the way she
Chris Gazdik: really was.
Don’t we all? Yeah. Not seeing her the way she really was. Yeah. No, I, you know, It’s such a challenge to be mindful in the moment and being present, and again, why with the [00:22:00] emotions that are going on. Mm-hmm. , I mean, yeah, if you put us on a pedestal as therapist, please don’t, because I do not do this well myself at home when something’s going on, you think I’m gonna be mindful and calm and clear with my mind and grounded and insightful about my flaws and not blaming her.
I mean, it’s, you know, you get into this emotional state that is powerful and that powerful emotional state usually being abandonment and or engulfment, it drives you to behave in just horrible ways that we need to learn how to curtail. That’s kind of the goal.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, it, it is a process, obviously a process, and you learn from your mistakes and I think that’s a big difference.
People. Uh, let’s say are so defensive sometimes that they don’t want to, to allow that they may have to change the way they look at things.
Chris Gazdik: Bunny, you should use that word, defensiveness, right? Yeah. When we’re [00:23:00] taking things personally, this is probably should have been on top of the list, , right? Because immediately when Victoria, you’re my wife, and you say something to me mm-hmm.
I am going to jump in very commonly into a state of defense. Why? Well, underneath of that is because I’m taking it personally. Mm-hmm. , I’m, I’m, I’m thinking you’re coming at me or saying, as you said John, I loved that saying something about me. Mm-hmm. , this
Victoria Pendergrass: is, you are describing me. Mm-hmm. . And my
Chris Gazdik: marriage
Oh, really? Well, this is like, you know what the produ, this therapy, the producer Neil, uh, I, I must say Neil, I have to catch you, but he, he texts me actually. He’s like, uh, this is not the delivery of therapy services, dot, dot dot. Or is it today? No, I mean, listen, I could fill up this space. I think
Victoria Pendergrass: it just shows that as therapists, we are empathetic to what our clients are going through.
[00:24:00] Because, because it’s real, even though we’re therapists, it doesn’t mean that our own marriages and that our own relationships are perfect. Right. And I was just telling someone today how therapists make the worst clients . Mm-hmm. . Oh. Because like we, you know, it’s like we know what the solution is, but actually implementing it in our own lives can be hard.
I mean, it’s really real. So, I mean, so I’m being honest when I say that in my own marriage, I, when my husband brings up topics, I tend to get defensive because of what you said. I mean, I tend to take things personally. It
Chris Gazdik: drives us Yeah. Into that natural space that is almost like, I mean, it’s such, think of it.
Okay. This metaphor occurs to me when something is said and we’re feeling the way that we’re feeling, it’s as though we jump into a Class five rapid. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And this Class five Rapid is of one through five, where you are just kind of taken mm-hmm. [00:25:00] right onto the current, and that current takes you to places like Blame mm-hmm.
and, and, uh, this concept of defensiveness and, and the implicit biases that are going on with your thoughts, it’s almost as though you can’t prevent it. Mm-hmm. , that’s what a Class five Rapid is about. Mm-hmm. , and I love that metaphor. Right. And I just literally created that in the world. Yeah, yeah. Well, you,
John-Nelson Pope: you, it’s hard to get out of the classified rapid, isn’t it?
And it’s, uh, when you get in the whirlpool and, uh, or you get dashed against the rocks metaphorical, you are going to go, you’re going to go it. There’s no, you can’t stop it.
Chris Gazdik: All. It, its, or it seems that way, it seems that way. Or is it that way? Just, just curious. I think it almost is that way. Oh, yeah. Until you begin to learn, and this is key.
Ooh, I like this. Just setting up in my brain. Until you begin to learn. Before you get put into, [00:26:00]
John-Nelson Pope: yeah. Yeah. So in other words, you see the,
Chris Gazdik: the trap. You see the trap. And, and before you get into the trap, before you get defensive, before you get, you know, into a state of, of implicit bias where you don’t even know what’s going on or, you know, blaming the other person, you can take a step back and say, wait a minute, Victoria, you just said something to.
and I know I have a tendency to take things personally. I, is this about me or are you trying to say something right about the situation or as a part of a solution? Or is it a random thought? I don’t want to jump into that Rapid. Mm-hmm. . So I think it really happens, John, before you get into this mm-hmm.
because then you’re just took. Mm-hmm. .
John-Nelson Pope: I agree. I agree. I think sometimes you might even get an idea of saying, okay, I’m going down this. Why do I keep going down these rapids all the time? And then you start to learn, [00:27:00] even though you can’t stop it at that point and you’re overwhelmed by it. And is that.
Maybe I could not do this this way. I can do things differently. I could be more accepting. I could be, I could just hold my tongue for a minute, a minute more and, and hear what she’s trying to say or he’s trying to say to
Chris Gazdik: me. Right. Yeah. These are skills. Yeah. And these are what you pick up somewhere along the journey to begin practicing.
And if you don’t, you’re probably gonna continue going down that rapid. And it’s not a pretty place when you get slung up on the rocks. Exactly. Over and over and over again. Yeah. And this is where people then lead themselves to hopefully a therapy experience. Mm-hmm. . Right? Right. Here’s a little suggestion.
Is it possible that we can have a therapy experience before we go into the rapids, right? Mm-hmm. [00:28:00] 10 times. How about we realize when you get into a hard spot, two, three. You start hitting four times. Wait a minute, I’m seeing some repetitiveness here. Get to a therapy office. How’s that for a suggestion?
Yeah. So
John-Nelson Pope: in other words, even if you’re in a com, let’s say premarital counseling, for example, would be a, something that you could actually anticipate a little bit and say, okay, I need to watch out for these issues. Mm-hmm. or you have, um, but is that what you’re saying or are you saying, um, just. In life’s experience, you, you see a problem, uh, po potentially.
And you go to the therapist for that?
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we, we wonder why, you know, these same things are happening over and over again. And, and, and I tell you, when I do the emotion focus therapy model with people and I kind of lay, lay out the, [00:29:00] the, the characters there that play out and the patterns that play out and people are like, I mean, really it happens so often for me when I do that with people, they’re like, I mean, God.
Oh my God, you just described us. Do you
John-Nelson Pope: ever do Gina Graham’s? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Every, every initial appointment.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. I’ve, I’ve seen your little Yeah. Markings. Yeah. I, I, yeah, I do those too. Yeah. And I think it’s important cuz that actually gives insight,
Chris Gazdik: uh, genograms, uh, real quick so the audience doesn’t get lost.
Yeah. What do, what are they, Victoria?
Victoria Pendergrass: Um, it’s basically just a layout of your family, right? Yeah. But it’s, I mean, it’s just saying like, um, you know, It’s a diagram. The diagram basically who’s divorced, who’s together, you know,
John-Nelson Pope: was there domestic violence? Was there alcohol substance use? You have that or is there, were you even more sophisticated?
Genograms, I’m sorry to interrupt
Victoria Pendergrass: you. Yes. Yeah. It’s more, it’s like a more sophisticated family
John-Nelson Pope: tree, right? Because then you could [00:30:00] talk about, well, the, where there’s people that are estranged from one another, you, you could actually say, or where people are too involved. And, um, that’s a term, it’s called enmeshment.
Right? Right. Mm-hmm. .
Victoria Pendergrass: So, but yeah, I see your little diagrams on your stuff too. .
Chris Gazdik: So ca uh, we got a YouTube comment. Cass is, uh, welcome. You found YouTube, uh, by the way, I like that. Uh, how, how do you tips on not taking things personally? We’re definitely gonna get to ma’am, because I mean, that’s what we’re trying to do, but the, but the thing that, that occurs to me, you know, that we were just saying, and maybe I beat you to your comment or as you were commenting, we might have been on the same wavelength across the internet.
Cas, the, the, the thing is, is getting in there before. You get into these patterns. Yeah. So that you can calm yourself down before you begin to take things personally. Mm-hmm. that takes you to blame and shame and anger and hurt and resentment and there’s a lot of other [00:31:00] things. Right. So, so what
John-Nelson Pope: I’m hearing from you is possibly, let’s say, if you’re an,
Chris Gazdik: I’m sorry, such a therapy statement, such a therapeutic thing to say, but that’s what we do.
Let’s get a handle on this. So what I’m hearing you say, let’s be real . Okay. Go, man. Go.
John-Nelson Pope: The, the, you might have to do a little, if you were to do this, and do this correctly. I, and, and I’m gonna say that there’s probably a better way of doing this is what you’re, is to be able to take stock of where you are and know where you are at that time.
And that means, oh yeah, I am a little anxious. I am a little nervous, I am a little self-conscious about myself. And then you’d be able to do that kind of work That might make it, uh, some good preparation for you to, to work with someone else, let’s say intimate partner.
Chris Gazdik: Thank you for that. Right? Yeah.
You’re, you’re, you’re giving another suggestion. This is, this to me seems like a teaching moment, John. Mm-hmm. , where you’re kind of saying, take a [00:32:00] temperature of your own mental health. Right? Right. And when you do that, then you’re more prepared to, you know, work with your partner. Mm-hmm. , um, and or are you saying that just about us as clinicians?
No, I’m thinking about partner. Yeah. Okay. In in marriage. In marriage, yeah. That’s part of the goal. Because, you know, it’s funny, we do that in clinician world too. Uhhuh. . Yeah. We have to take our own temperature and like, you know, how am I doing? You know, am I, do I need five minutes today? Or, you know, this type of thing.
And, you know, we can model that by making sure that we are facilitated. Like, don’t we train hard and work hard to learn how to do that. There’s
John-Nelson Pope: intentionality of doing that. And you have to do the same in, in a relationship, right? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that means you have to make yourself, you don’t, you, you need to be able to lower your shield.
a bit and become vulnerable. A lot. A lot, yeah. Because I think a good therapist is able to be, [00:33:00] um, transparent. Mm-hmm. , genuine. Genuine, yeah. Authentic, unconditional, positive regard. All the, all the way. All those things. Right. And that means you have to sit outside of yourself a little bit. You have to walk any other person’s shoes.
Chris Gazdik: And that’s hard to do professionally. Sometimes we struggle with that. That’s part of the purposeful, as you say, intentionality that we do. Uhhuh . But think about how difficult that is to do when you’re worked up with the closest and most important, I’m sorry, relationship that you have being, being your marriage, uhhuh, , right?
Yeah. So let’s circle back and then, and then move forward. Let’s think about like why we do some of these things. You know, and, and this comes from the article as well, but just listen to this. You react quickly to in form of criticism, getting emotional or defensive before you have gauge. If he even has any merit, you’ve been known to answer criticism with, ah, I can’t do anything.
Right. How many times do you hear that ? You often [00:34:00] read double meanings into the things your partner says, or you wonder what they really meant. These are all things that are setups. They’re, they’re, they grab you. But that’s
John-Nelson Pope: also, you might bring that from your family of origin too, and that Well, yeah. And so you assume you have that perception or projection that that other person is doing would do the same.
Chris Gazdik: This is what we know. Yeah. Of, um, projection. That’s a whole nother topic. We’ve talked about that on a show before, but mm-hmm. , I’m, no, it’s okay. Real quick. Go, go and go and hit that so we don’t lose that because that happens. A lot. Okay. And leads to taking things personally. Okay? For
John-Nelson Pope: example, uh, you’re raised and you’re in a family and you’re perhaps a little, uh, doughy in growing up and you’re dough and let’s say a mother or grandmother, grandfather or father says, well, you’re eating a little bit too much, or something like that.[00:35:00]
And you can read that because you’re a smart kid and you start to pick that up. Well, you go and you would, uh, in your relationship as an adult, he still carry that with you. And so you just are already for that, what you would perceive as a criticism, and you want to just cut it and nip it at the bud and not hear it.
Do, do you follow what
Chris Gazdik: I’m saying? Primed and on the ready for the defensiveness before your partner even Harley says anything. Yeah. And, and it’s, it’s a hell of a thing. because it almost doesn’t matter. Listen to this. It almost doesn’t matter what your spouse does when that is going on, subconsciously in your own mind.
Mm-hmm. , you are ready to hear that criticism, whether your spouse says it or not. And that’s one of the real shitty things about projection that people don’t even [00:36:00] know is going on. Yeah. And it comes from long ago, as you point out. Mm-hmm. , and thank you for describing Uhhuh. . You know what happens, because I think this happens naturally, normally, but a lot.
And when it’s really deep and depthy and has, and has been touching on a really hurtful spot mm-hmm. for your, your past, again, it throws you into Class five Rapid. Mm-hmm. . Right. Powerful. And it’s hard to watch. , you know, people get sucked into that, you know, and I, I do, I, I experience it in my own life and I, and I see people on, on my couch kind of going into that.
Mm-hmm. , it, it’s, oh my god, recently I just saw this woman like switch from like 45 minutes of like calm paste conversation, doing really well and then just went right into the rapid. Mm-hmm. , I’m gonna use that rapid metaphor. Can you tell? Yeah. I think looking forward,
John-Nelson Pope: I think all you need to do is speak [00:37:00] rapidly while you talk about the
Chris Gazdik: rapids, ah,
We can make it better. Listen to more going on. You struggle to let things go or you, you go to great lengths to avoid criticism. Right. You, you don’t, you worry you’ve done something wrong or offended your partner, even when you’re not sure what it is, you, you worry that you’re going to get told off or, you know, shut down.
Or, or if your partner does something nice for you and you’re slightly suspicious, well, what, what
John-Nelson Pope: is? Well, sometimes it’s even more than
Chris Gazdik: slightly suspicious or highly suspicious. Suspicious, right? You need a lot of reassurance from your partner. Tell me, tell me, tell me, right? Mm-hmm. , when your partner praises you, you feel awkward or struggle to believe it.
Yeah. You know, you worry greatly about what others think of you. These are, these are setups, man. Mm-hmm. . These are, these are things, you know, kind of getting into like, you know, well, why do we do this? What, what, what drives this stuff? This, [00:38:00] these thi I literally hear people saying these things in these statements when, when particularly start getting into a conflict in a therapy session, and these things kind of come out.
They’re setups, man. They set you up into this nasty pattern where you’re taking things personally. Okay. There’s a cool article here, I think, too. Why do we do this? Seven Reasons. So being a social perfectionist. Using negative self-talk as motivation. Afraid to be proud of yourself, lack of assertiveness, getting lost in your own stories.
You know, I would add overthinking things internally with internalization. I see a lot
John-Nelson Pope: of that and I, I’ve seen more of that since Covid, since really? The pandemic came
Chris Gazdik: since Covid. What do you mean by that?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, no, it’s just that, um, maybe it’s because people have not been at the workplace and in interacting with people, they have this internal dialogue that goes in a, a little bit more than they used to.
Mm-hmm. . And that’s just, it’s a generalization, [00:39:00] but, uh,
Chris Gazdik: just something you’ve noticed. Uh, just something I’ve
John-Nelson Pope: noticed. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Uh, another cool YouTube comment I’m gonna throw in here. I think it’s, it, it fits. Therapy is a last, is a last resort, and that is a problem. Okay. Uh, they can avoid a lot of hurt if you realize that you need help sooner.
I, I appreciate that comment. and I can’t, I couldn’t agree more. Yeah, because oh my gosh, how many, how many times have I used this metaphor Victoria? Where, you know, you have people coming for a therapy session, they feel like they’re in the bottom of the ninth inning. They’re down by six runs. Yeah. They count two, three with with, with one out.
And that’s that Billy Joel
John-Nelson Pope: song. Pressure all over again,
Chris Gazdik: right? Yes. I don’t know the song. Two Men Out,
John-Nelson Pope: one Base is loaded. Yeah. Two men
Chris Gazdik: Off. Yeah. Out and, and here we’re supposed to like work Magic in Miracles, Uhhuh , you know? How about the third inning?
Victoria Pendergrass: Uhhuh. . Right. I always encourage people to, I [00:40:00] mean, therapy is my job, but you know, I still encourage people to use therapy as a maintenance tool.
John-Nelson Pope: Um, yeah. You know, we’re, we’re also counselors, right. And I’m thinking that counseling kind of is a little less, uh, you, it, I think it might be a little bit more, uh, preventative. . Mm-hmm. and, um, and prescriptive. I think it might be very helpful for people before it gets bad until you get to a third. Well,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah.
Or even just to help maintain just how people come to individual therapy to maintain where they’re at. And you know, as issues arise, they come just like that with couples. I mean, were they, even if they, if, even if it’s just like a once a month check-in, they come in, you know, we talk about how things are going, you know, is there any, you know, specific events that have happened this month that we can kind of talk about and work through?
Like, you know [00:41:00] what’s
Chris Gazdik: interesting, Victoria? I, I’ve been doing this a little bit longer than you have. You have and you, you, I love that because that is a, that is a unique idea that I have never thought about and it’s, and I think it’s from your fresh perspective, probably I have not experienced hardly at all.
and nor talk about maintenance couples work. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I’m a little disappointed in myself in that, in that regard. That’s your third book? It, that’s my third book. . Yeah. . So we are boring into a new topic, although it might not be new. I’m just slow in that regard because I, I, I think of, I think of maintenance therapy work for individuals.
Yeah. Yeah. But I have not talked about, nor thought about, unfortunately the same thing for couples. I don’t know why, I don’t know why that is. I’m cur, I mean, I’m John. Is that, have you thought of that much before? I mean, does that
John-Nelson Pope: you, but I’ve seen it more from the religious side of the house. Okay. In, in other words, we’d like if we, we’ll have [00:42:00] these, um, uh, retreats, week retreats, weekends, but it’s not for troubled marriages.
Necess necessarily. It’s for, it’s for mar marriage enrichment. and um, or relationship in enrichment.
Chris Gazdik: But yes, it’s fascinating because, you know, traditional, you know, marriage and family therapy and therapy world and pure therapy world, not the religion world. I can totally see what you’re talking about.
Mm-hmm. , I know those. Yeah. But in, in therapy world, it’s been like, oh, I mean, like when I started, people hated doing couples counseling, Uhhuh, . And I didn’t understand it cuz I always loved it. I thought it was, there was a lot going on, but they hated it because it was like what you experienced in Victoria, I think you brought up in the, wasn’t this a mentor moment?
I think you did. The mentor moment, I think go, what do you do anyway? It doesn’t matter because it was just battle battleground. Mm-hmm. , that’s what couples counseling was, was a battleground. And that’s, that’s why like that’s changed.
Victoria Pendergrass: And I, I don’t know. And yes, maybe it could be my fresh eyes, I’m new to the world kind of thing.
But to me, , I’m, I’m, I think it’s part of [00:43:00] the work towards like the de-stigmatizing of like, therapy is only when you’re crazy or only, like you said, only when, yeah, you’re in the bottom of the ninth or whatever. Like, you know, we’re here to
John-Nelson Pope: help get three and, uh, yeah, like two men out and three on base.
Victoria Pendergrass: And so, I mean, I have like, I have a couple right now.
I’ve, uh, part of it’s scheduling, but I see them roughly just once a month and they’re doing really well. And so at this point it’s just maintenance. It’s continue to con And so, and that’s why I’ve kind of like encouraged them, like, okay, y’all are doing well, but let’s kind of keep doing a check-in every month.
So then that way we can make sure that y’all continue to do
Chris Gazdik: well.
John-Nelson Pope: The ability to step out of yourself, that means humor. and to have a sense of humor in, in that if you’re doing maintenance mm-hmm. , and then that way you could step back and see how the, how it’s going and be able to do fine tuning if you [00:44:00] need to do it.
And then
Victoria Pendergrass: they, you know, they’re already established with me. So then if something crisis or major related does come up, all they have to do is text or call me and say, Hey, we, we don’t wanna wait until a month. Like, can we schedule a session next week? You know? And so then like,
Chris Gazdik: it’s there. So let’s finish this little idea of like, why do we fall into this trap of taking things personally?
John, before the mic’s turned on, I think you were sort of thumbing through the, the, the notes that I created in the flow of our conversation. Mm-hmm. And you, you stopped on this sentence and, and I thought it was cool that you noted it. I had, I hadn’t thought it since I had done this. But isn’t it cool to think about taking things personally?
What leads us to. and the sentence that you read and you were kinda like, oh, and I’m curious what your thoughts were about it. Which, which one was that we inadvertently seek to confirm our insecurities to survive? Yeah. Yeah. Say that [00:45:00] again. Okay. We inadvertently seek to confirm our insecurities to survive, and that’s a big part of why we lead into taking things personally.
Yeah. What do you think about that? I, I was curious about your reaction there. It an hour ago? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Where is that down? Oh, here it is. We inadvertently seek to confirm our insecurities to survive. In fact,
You know, I did find that interesting. I mean, I, I, I, I had never thought of it that way. So that was, that was, uh, uh, appealing to me, uh, because I wanted to say, okay. Does that make sense? But that’s, uh,
Chris Gazdik: I, I’m not sure I love your thought process. You wanna, well, I think you wanna go a little further, or, or
John-Nelson Pope: in other words, what I’m s.[00:46:00]
Chris Gazdik: I, I’m
Victoria Pendergrass: sorry.
John-Nelson Pope: So you have, I’m sorry. You get, no, you get the narrative. I’m, I’m stuck on it because the narrative is you almost have this anticipation of a narrative that, that you’re bringing. And so, uh, because it made sense to you when you were, uh, 15 or 20 or, or, or even, and, and so it just kind of reinforces that, um, I’m
Chris Gazdik: not sure that mean.
Right. Okay. What were you thinking, Victoria?
John-Nelson Pope: Let me interrupt you.
Chris Gazdik: No, no,
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean, I, sorry. I just, I just think, I don’t know. It resonates with me because, so we inadvertently seek to confirm our insecurities to survive. I think sometimes it just means that when our insecurities are conf confirmed, we’re, we kind of tell ourselves like, oh, I’m not crazy, or, you know, what I was thinking was valid, even if it isn’t insecurity.
And so that, that way. [00:47:00] Did I give? I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know if I’m kind of just spiraling in my own head right now. . Well, I’m,
John-Nelson Pope: I’m, I think I’m spiraling too because it, it, it’s almost like, remember, uh, um, what was his name? Artie Langs.
Chris Gazdik: Um, do not
John-Nelson Pope: know. Uh, wrote a, uh, a book of poetry and he, he was a psychoanalyst and it was called, um, knots.
And so he would get where we have these, these thoughts that we get stuck on that actually not us up. Interesting. And so, and it was by r d Lang and, uh, he was British, a psychoanalyst. And of that school from the late SI sixties, early seventies. But this is one of those statements because it seems like, well, What does it mean and Right, so it, and, and does it confirm something in your mind or, or, or, this, this id, [00:48:00] this contradiction.
You wouldn’t think that an insecurity would, uh, would cause you to, to survive, let’s say emotionally or whatever, but in a way it confirms, and I think you were saying it, it confirms that, well, you’re. And right. That’s, this is where you are. And so it just kind of reinforces that. Um, so
Chris Gazdik: yeah, I value your all’s thought with that, and I hope I didn’t put too much pressure or put you on a spot with that, but I, but I wanted to see how you struggled through that and what you were thinking, because I’ll tell you, when I created that thought, I, I think that’s heavily steeped in emotion focus therapy.
Yeah. Right. I mean, you think about abandonment insecurities that drive your freaking daily behavior in a powerful way or engulfment
John-Nelson Pope: and you
Chris Gazdik: know you’re alive. You know you’re alive, but you also know that you’re getting ready to go into the rapid Uhhuh , the class five of Rapid is about ready to take you mm-hmm.
And you might not survive. You’re literally, your [00:49:00] brain gets into a state of fear. Well, that’s
John-Nelson Pope: what I was doing. . That’s, yeah. What do you mean? What I was getting into that rabbit hole and I was thinking, what does it mean? What does it mean? And I was going into that rapid the there, and that’s where I connected it to, to Lang’s knots, because that’s where we get messed up or screwed up.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. We stumble, we get so twisted. Yeah. And generally when you’re in a marital relationship, when you get twisted, your spouse probably gets twisted right after you. Yeah. If not already had it, it it, it’s something that just plays And then, and then you’re both taking things personally. Yeah. You’re both getting defensive and you’re both blaming each other.
Mm-hmm. while you’re just in the. And down the rabbit hole.
John-Nelson Pope: You know, if we, if we all worked all this up, we wouldn’t have any movies anymore from some No , no romantic comedies or
Chris Gazdik: anything So true. Or dramadies. So true indeed. So what do we wanna do? Let’s [00:50:00] get a little bit into like, what do, what do we do to, to get out of this defensiveness and how do we, you know, to me it kind of looks like, you know, the opposite is the goal a little bit, right?
Mm-hmm. , uh, amenability, open-mindedness, calmness, intu
John-Nelson Pope: ability, wouldn’t it? Intu ability. Yeah. Intu
Chris Gazdik: ability, yeah. Oh, okay. . I had to look that up actually. You can’t
John-Nelson Pope: be perturbed. And so it’s just the opposite of perturbed. And then you added a whole bunch of, uh, imperturbability, suffixes, ,
Chris Gazdik: you’re right.
Basically unable to be upset or calm, like you want to be calm. When you’re in moments. So, and then, uh, equanimity.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. And that’s a good word. And that’s an ex And use that in existentialism. Okay. Mm-hmm. So, so go further. So it, it’s a sense that you could come to a, uh, a decision and you don’t have to do it just [00:51:00] exactly one way.
You can do it another way. And yet things work out and I’m not, maybe I’m Equality. Equality, right? Yeah. And it’s respect.
Chris Gazdik: Respected equality. Equality between you and your spouse. Yeah. These are what we’re trying to do. To get out of this stuff.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. It’s not just like e equity, which means an expected same outcome.
It’s, it’s where you can respect a person where they are and, and he can respect you where you are. And, and even if it’s not perfect or congruent, there’s enough of that that you could say, this is fine, and you kind
Chris Gazdik: of relax. I’m gonna take
John-Nelson Pope: you down a and I’m not gonna go down a rapid five on this one.
Chris Gazdik: Exactly. Okay. Right, right. I I, I I wanna do this real quick cuz I know you come from a religious aspect, and I hear this in religious circles, jerseys be crazy and a lot of men, particularly in marriage, here you are to respect me. Uh, you [00:52:00] or what? What? Wait, that’s not right. What’s the one that women always, that’s from Ephesians.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s uh, from Ephesians and it’s Paul. And Paul says, uh, women, um, um, or to submissive? Submissive submit. That’s what submit to their husband. Yeah. My brains tired and spouse. But the problem is, is that it’s just the opposite. Because what it says is that just as Christ loves his church, right, Christ submitted himself onto death.
Right. So and, and so in a way it’s a, it’s a, it’s a mutual submission. It’s a mutual submission. Mutual submission and love. And so you gotta understand that it, it isn’t allowing the man to do what he wants. Hell no. No, absolutely not. It’s just the opposite. So it
Chris Gazdik: trips people up hardcore, doesn’t trips women up, I should say.
Yeah, yeah. You know, when they’re supposed to submit. Yeah. And there’s equal, equal in that equality in there, in a,
John-Nelson Pope: in a scripture. If you really want [00:53:00] to get into the weeds, the, the man is supposed to love. His spouse unconditionally, but he doesn’t say that about those spouse, the woman. Oh, really?
Chris Gazdik: Loving the man.
Yeah. Oh, I don’t wanna get into the weeds with that. We’re supposed to be loved unconditionally too. Yeah. . Holy crap. Yeah, . Yeah. Uh,
John-Nelson Pope: so the man has to submit, in a sense, submit his emotions. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Submit his emotions. Okay. Well, I, we’re gonna talk off camera for that. That’s not, I don’t have a, that sounds interesting.
Yeah. Yeah. But I, so I wanna throw in here as well, just with the, the equanimity factor and, and again, the opposite of the things that we get into with defensiveness and blame and all that. This is a little bit of the answer. How do we manage to, to, to, to prevent ourselves from taking things personally.
Mm-hmm. , uh, a person said this to me early on in my career. He was actually a pastor as well. He was a client. And I’ll never forget it. I thought it was absolutely perfect. He’s, he, he thought of, you know, a man and a woman. You know, the other thing that people get hung up on in religious circles is, you know, [00:54:00] man is the head of the household.
Well, holy. Okay. Fair enough. But the woman is the heart. And if you think about a lot of organs, the kidney, a lung, Hey Victoria, I could take your lung out and you’re still gonna be fine. . Mm-hmm. , you know, I think you can go without a gallbladder even. Mm-hmm. , you know, liver, maybe not so much you need, you know, but at the liver, liver generates
Victoria Pendergrass: itself, so
Chris Gazdik: absolutely you can go to dialysis, you lose your heart, you lose your brain, you’re done.
How’s that for equanimity? Mm-hmm. . I’ll never forget that you explained that. Right. Excellent. Anyway, all right. Moving on. Uh, composure, coolness. A plume. Where did I come up with these words? Oh my goodness. I’m not wrong. What I’m doing, that’s sort of
John-Nelson Pope: a swa fair thing
Chris Gazdik: there, isn’t it? , self-confidence or assurance.
Uhhuh. . Especially when in a demanding situation, uhhuh . So keep your,
John-Nelson Pope: keep one’s head. A plume. Yeah. A
Chris Gazdik: plume. Yeah. You know, I think I may have used that cool word [00:55:00] just because. When you’re, when you’re really in this stuff is so terrifying. Mm-hmm. , can you, and I think that’s why I looked at that other statement, like I said, John, that you were interested in, we inadvertently seek to confirm our insecurities to survive because this is terrifying stuff.
When you get into a moment with your spouse, it really can feel like your whole world might end. Mm-hmm. , I tell you anecdotally, I have found that when people are in a separation or divorce state, they are the most decompensated that they’ve ever been in their life. Mm-hmm. . And that’s what I’ve found.
Victoria Pendergrass: I recently heard.
So, um, you might, I, I’m interested to see if y’all agree with me, but in, in recently heard that in couples, specifically men and win men and women, couples, I’m not really sure about same sex couples, um, but in a woman and a man relationship that when it comes to [00:56:00] arguments, Women are always afraid that they’re one argument away from the re relationship ending, whereas men are, they’re already set.
They know their future, they’re cool. So an ar an argument doesn’t necessarily impact, like they’re not gonna think a relationship is going to end. So for them, some things aren’t, as always, a ar little arguments aren’t always as big of a deal because they know that they’ll stay in the relationship and relax last, whereas women are in this constant state of like, we’re one argument, one big argument away from
John-Nelson Pope: terminating, but then
Chris Gazdik: you would relationship.
So in other words,
John-Nelson Pope: you get into
Chris Gazdik: that. Okay. I’m just insured to see what I gotta answer again. John, I wanna hear what you answer. Ask the question again. Victoria.
Victoria Pendergrass: I’m just saying if what you, your thoughts on that statement, like whether or not, say the statement again. Oh, that men. are kind of more set in.
They’re, they’re not as worried about arguments because they know that the relationship will continue. Whereas women are always in constant [00:57:00] fear that they’re one argument, one big argument away from the relationship ending. And so therefore they try to do more things to like, save the relationship or the way that they respond.
Chris Gazdik: What says said I am?
John-Nelson Pope: Uh, I I think it’s not necessarily sex related or gender related. Um, yeah. Maybe it’s
Chris Gazdik: not. Sorry, John, you and I are in lockstep. I’m gonna say a hard no. That it’s
Victoria Pendergrass: not men and or women are, it’s hard. No. Okay. Uh, to what aspect of the statement though?
Chris Gazdik: All of it. All of it. Uhhuh. . Okay. All of it.
And here’s why. Okay. I find again, John, I’m, I’m curious how you’ll see this as well, but I find that a lot of the gender based statements mm-hmm. in marriage. are not based on accuracy much at all. Mm-hmm. , and I hear this a lot in religious circles, like, I love religious circles, I love Christianity particularly, but I find that it gets way, way, way too over [00:58:00] gendered.
Mm-hmm. , and instead of being gendered oriented, I do find it being that abandonment drives , the fear that our relationship is going to end. So engulfment drives the fear that you’re gonna control me and run me over, but I’m not worried that our argument is gonna create the end. Right. I’m just gonna shut down and go away and we’ll come back tomorrow.
Mm-hmm. . So you’re saying that
Victoria Pendergrass: it’s not necessarily a gender thing, that those two roles exist, right. Where there’s one person that thinks that they’re, they’re one argument away from the relationship ending, and then there’s one person that. is set in stone. Yeah. Is that what you’re saying? But it’s just not gender specific?
Chris Gazdik: Exactly. Let me go just a little bit further. Okay. Because I was gonna say that men tend to culturally and stereotypically match. The engulfment role. Mm-hmm. women tend to culturally match the abandonment role. Mm-hmm. , [00:59:00] we think that women are supposed to be emotional and want to talk and want to connect.
I can tell you, my wife gets super annoyed when I want to talk and connect and talk and talk and talk. Mm-hmm. like if, if let’s talk about it, right, that’s Oh, and I’m a dude’s dude. I’m sorry. I’m fine. I’m a dude. Yeah. But, but, but it, it, it’s almost like I’m told as a guy, I’m supposed to be in my man cave alone, not talking about feelings and emotions.
Yeah. It doesn’t fit and it doesn’t fit a lot of my clients and it drives me nuts. Victoria. Okay. Yeah. Well, I’m just repeating it,
Victoria Pendergrass: it
John-Nelson Pope: something that I hadn’t heard. No, no. And, and I just think in my own experience, of course I’m, I’m a feely wheely kind of guy, you know, , so, uh, but uh, when I was in an argument with my wife, um, on more than one or two occasions, , I would follow her.
She’d be trying to leave the. And I’d be following her and said, let’s talk, let’s talk. And Interesting. Yeah. And she, she’d played a different role at at
Chris Gazdik: that point, right? At what? [01:00:00] Can you say what you mean by at that point? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: We’ve exchanged roles. Okay. So many times. And, uh, we have found ourselves. But, but the, the central point of this is, is that there’s this marriage, this thing called marriage, which is a concept, which is something that is historical, whatever, and we have danced around it.
And sometimes I play the um, and go en golfer, sometimes I am abandoned. And so,
Chris Gazdik: Well, and I, I can be wrong, but I think that you’ve shared for sure on the show that you’ve learned that that’s part of the journey. Yeah. And part of the healing process of getting into a better place, I believe give each other space you learning balance, learning this balance so that you have these different tendencies, but you learn that balance.
Yeah. You have got to get balance. Yeah. Because I remember you shared on the show as well. Very clearly, and it was [01:01:00] hard for me to imagine joy getting up in front of the car when you’re in the car driving away saying, John Nelson, we’re gonna talk more about this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Cause I was doing, you, you were
John-Nelson Pope: leaving Leaving, right.
I, I couldn’t stand it.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, correct me if I’m wrong, but I know you well enough to know that you have learned how to stand in there, which is primarily an engulfment person’s goal to learn how to do. Do. Yeah. And Abandonment’s goal is to learn how to shut the hell up and sit down
Yeah. For a minute. Yeah. Wait a day. Yeah. I used, I still suck at that.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Mentally I have to put something up on the, up on the shelf, and so I literally see it. And so, okay. All right. I need to, to, I need to examine it, settle down, examine it. Just think about it later. And then take it back down when calmer heads prevail.
[01:02:00] Having balance. Having balance, right. It’s
Chris Gazdik: all balanced. So J So Victoria, yeah, this definitely happens. It’s just not gender, gender, gender. Yeah man. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: Well, and that’s, yeah. Okay, cool.
Chris Gazdik: Thanks . She’s done. I’m good. So what’s the answer referencing the selflessness show? I would like to do on episode two 14.
You all know that was a powerful show in my mind cuz it thunderstruck me in a. In a, in a big way. Episode two 14 is one that you definitely want to check out on selflessness, because to me that’s a big, big part of what it is that we’re trying to do. Mm-hmm. to get away from taking things personally.
Right. Um, but I, but listen to this kind of curiousness or a list, uh, that I kind of went through and Victoria, I’m curious what you think and see and what you would add, John, what you know and what you see. Mm-hmm. , you know, so what’s the answer really? To [01:03:00] get away from the rapids, really and truly to avoid these horrible spaces that we’ve described.
Um, develop and express and explore new patterns. John, I heard you talking about that. Get curious mm-hmm. about what the other person might mean. Mm-hmm. , if they’re not saying something about me, like you have got to develop curiosity. I like to say get, get confused. Mm-hmm. , I, I don’t understand what you said.
I don’t understand what you mean. You know, I, I’m lost. Help explain that to me. Get, get confused. Mm-hmm. , so that you get your partner to, to, to help you see that. To, to, to describe it. Uh, I, I think you talked about this peppered in John as well. Get silly. Have fun. Can we not have fun and laugh about tough stuff and then seek to understand instead [01:04:00] of seeking to be correct.
Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Or to seek to be understood. In other words, think of someone’s, it’s selfless to think of other people’s needs. You’ll understand yourself if you could seek to understand others.
Chris Gazdik: Wow. Yeah. Say that again.
John-Nelson Pope: You can, you can actually understand yourself if you seek to understand others, and then you’ll find the question.
So in other words, instead of demanding to be understood by others, you go and you seek to understand your partner or, or your family, your children.
Chris Gazdik: You know, it’s funny you say that, that struck me, John. Cause I’m currently really working on that in my own life. Mm-hmm. and it, it, it just hit me a little bit because Yeah, I’ve, I’ve really gotten in touch with [01:05:00] like, you know, seeking to understand the other person is a, is a really powerful space to try to be in.
And, you know, if you’re really getting honest and getting in a real genuine level with this, . That’s scary as hell. Yeah, it is Kimmy. Yeah, it’s what we’re saying is understand oftentimes the pain that your partner has. Yeah. And that that’s scary because that could you feel it? Mm-hmm. , you really begin to feel it and it’s like, wow, I didn’t know that you had that kind of terror.
When we get into an argument and you really start getting in touch with that. Mm-hmm. , now you’ve got your fear. I’ll just use it from my example, my fear from an abandonment perspective. Mm-hmm. of being left or being alone or not valued, [01:06:00] and the fear of your partner that you begin to get in touch with about being controlled.
Mm-hmm. , disrespected, overrun, and Yeah. Stuck and shut down. You really get in touch with both of ’em, Don and John. Mm-hmm. . . So, so compassion can come out of that. You learn what, how did you say, you learn more a lot about yourself Yeah. In that process. But boy, there’s, there’s a lot there. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: That also gives you a little bit of, you know, we, we used this the other day, grace, and uh, I think we were talking about something.
Um, but you, if you show mercy and grace to other people, you will actually show mercy and grace to yourself. Um,
Chris Gazdik: so getting deep here at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Let me take us out by saying, you know, we just naturally got John on a deep level with this kind of stuff, [01:07:00] and in short, we’re really wanting to battle against all of these things that we talked about because they happen so strongly, so naturally.
And that when you really begin to do this work, it’s so rewarding because as you just said, John, you get grace to yourself. You understand yourself better. Isn’t this really about internal change? So I want to challenge you. You learn so much about yourself when you do marital counseling. Let me say that again.
You learn so much about yourself when you do marital counseling because you’re really looking at a purposeful internal change on an important level, which is the foundation of yourself. Go do it. Be with it, grow with it. It’s worth it. John’s been married 41 years. We aspire to come to it. Guys, thank you for sharing what you’ve shared.
I think it’s been a pretty definit show. Take this episode. Good
John-Nelson Pope: episode. Yeah, did Good episode
Chris Gazdik: here. [01:08:00] Take care. Stay well and we’ll see you next week. Bye bye. Bye.