Is love just a feeling, or is it something you choose and commit to? In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we dive into the big question: What really is love? From fiery passion to quiet commitment, we explore how love shows up in our lives—romantic, platonic, self-love, and more. Using stories, psychology, and even a little humor (yes, we mention Fiddler on the Roof), we look at what makes love last and why it’s more than just butterflies. If you’ve ever wondered what kind of love you want more of—or how to make it stronger—this one’s for you.
Tune in to see What is Love Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Do you think love is more about feeling or choosing to commit?
- How have different kinds of love shown up in your life—romantic passion, deep friendship, or maybe self-love?
- What type of love do you want more of in your relationships right now?
Links referenced during the show:
https://time.com/4225777/meaning-of-love/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifestyle/lust-love-and-limerence
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/relationshiptoothers
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #316 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello, this is Chris Gazdik and you are found Through a Therapist’s Eyes where we’re going to be talking here on June the 19th. John tells me this is Juneteenth Day June, by the way, Juneteenth. Happy Juneteenth. What are we supposed to say on this day? Happy June.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, it’s a time of great celebration. So it’s sort of like, it’s in the family of 4th of July, kind of.
I’m still trying to
Chris Gazdik: get my bearings on what we’re supposed to do with this. Mm-hmm. This new holiday. Well,
John-Nelson Pope: I think everything’s open except for federal. We do. We pick
Chris Gazdik: out, I mean, I wanna know what the activities we need. Some cool thing. Well,
John-Nelson Pope: in some African American culture, Southern grids or, I mean, what, what
Chris Gazdik: do we need?
Some food staples.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, soul food. Soul food. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Soul. Food. Food, food. Right. Do we need the, the Creole and Oh yeah. The Creole. Creole and soul food. Okay. Well, happy Juneteenth everybody. Yeah. I, we’re gonna be, we’re gonna be talking about what is love, and the three questions we’re gonna be having you to think about today [00:01:00] are, do you think that love is more about feeling or choosing to commit?
How? How have different kinds of love shown up in your life? Romantic passion, deep friendship, et cetera. And then thirdly, what type of love do you want more in your relationships, like right now? So those are provocative questions that hopefully you’ll be thinking about as you get insights from a panel of therapists in your car or home.
But knowing this is not the delivery of therapy services in any way I already said, I think this is June the 20. June the 19th, thus the holiday I got the book out, John, through a therapist’s eyes, two books, two books, right? One on marriage and one on self. Okay? Get ’em both.
John-Nelson Pope: Get ’em both. And you want to say you’re the, the one that you just wrote about marriage and relationships is what’s the full title?
Chris Gazdik: The through therapist. Besides re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. And so res, repeat that in your mind seven times. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: And you will remember to go buy it. Seriously. It’ll be [00:02:00] helpful thing I think for you. Subscribe, click. Look. We wanna give you content. We enjoy doing it.
We hope we make you laugh a little bit. We hope you get some information a little bit, and we hope you get some Stig stereotypes and myths blown up a whole lot from what we do. But your job is to subscribe. Click the button bell notifications. We’re looking for YouTube subscribers such as, Hey Kellyann.
Zukowski is the new YouTube subscriber. You gotta give her a platform. Hey, welcome Kellyann. All right, welcome Ann. Aboard. And how many sars can they, I think
John-Nelson Pope: two maybe. No, no, no. Give five stars. It has to be five. We’re, yes. Has to be five stars. Even if it’s aspirational, we wanna, even if it’s aspirational.
Yeah. Give us the benefit of the doubt. Yeah,
Chris Gazdik: contact it through a therapist. eyes.com is a great way to interact with us as well. We love the feedback. And then the YouTube lives, check them out on Thursdays at about six 30. Uhhuh, we, we do YouTube lives and it’s a great way to interact with us as [00:03:00] well.
We get comments through the show. We love to embed them and incorporate them in a little bit as, as we go along. So what else do we need to say, John? This is the human emotional experience witch. I,
John-Nelson Pope: I can’t,
Chris Gazdik: you can’t do it. I can’t do it. You do it. I it, which we endeavor to figure out together. I don’t have to own that.
Yeah. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s a wonderful, that’s wonderful. I just, it’s like, I mean, I’m a minister and I have trouble remembering how to, to do the apostles creed sometimes. So the apostles creed’s a long one, man. It is. That’s, that’s the long one. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: All right. Let’s get into our topic. ’cause we, we have a lot to talk about with this thing, I think today, right?
There’s, this is sort of okay in a professional circle, John. Mm-hmm. I love to pontificate, discuss, debate, relate to the question, isn’t it also when we get professionals in the room, we simply ask the question, what is [00:04:00] addiction? Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: That’s a, the dialogue that comes is always amazing to me.
Right. I feel like in a bar or in a setting in personal life, when you ask this question, what is love Uhhuh? Don’t you think there’s a similarity between what we get with these dynamic, but simple questions Uhhuh sometimes.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, definitely.
Chris Gazdik: Like people have way wildly varied descriptions or statements.
Mm-hmm. I feel like when you ask this question. Okay.
John-Nelson Pope: And it depends also, maybe if you even have a personality disorder and you would have a very different definition above, I suspect you probably would. Yeah. But
Chris Gazdik: what, what does a listening public know about personality disorders? You got, you gotta give us a little more about that.
I think.
John-Nelson Pope: Well, let’s say for example, a person that is antisocial. Personality disorder is, is a sort of a core a core or bedrock belief a sense of self. And that person does not have an a, an ability and it [00:05:00] through experience or through nurture or nature or both that they may not have a good working understanding of empathy.
And I think when we talk about love. There’s in all the types of love that you discussed in, in our notes Yeah. That we’re gonna be talking about, there is empathy that is very much a center part of it. And if somebody has, doesn’t
Chris Gazdik: have that ability,
John-Nelson Pope: and let’s say somebody also has a one of or a dark one of the dark personality issues like narcissism, for example.
Mm-hmm. They, they have a trouble with understanding and be what love is putting themselves in somebody else’s shoes or a person that is borderline. You know, they, there’s a profound sense of emptiness because if one is loved and one is able to love that one is able to not have a sense of self that is rooted.
It, I mean, it’s, it’s fundamental.
Chris Gazdik: Here’s a bombastic statement [00:06:00] on the show. Okay. We’re okay. Bombastic statement I’m gonna say is I feel like love is like pornography. Isn’t that crazy of a statement?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, when I saw the notes, I was going, okay,
Chris Gazdik: what does this mean? Right. Yeah. Let me tell you what I mean by that.
Because obviously love is very different than pornography, but you know, it’s, it’s, it’s understanding what it is that we’re talking about here. And pornography has a lot of variables in trying to discern, is this pornography or is this not? If you try to write a paragraph about this, you will struggle.
But I love the phrase, and we were talking about this on the show a year or two ago when we discussed pornography a little bit. You, you, you know, if you have a hard time describing what it is, but when you see it, you know it.
John-Nelson Pope: That’s like one of the Supreme Court judges from the sixties. Right? Right.
Chris Gazdik: That’s where they, we landed, yeah. When, when, you know hustler or Hustle or whatever porn magazines what’s the name? Anyway, it doesn’t matter. But yeah, they were, they were in Supreme Court to gain [00:07:00] rights Yeah. For publications and stuff. And that was a little bit of a landing spot. Mm-hmm. Was that all the way in the sixties though?
John-Nelson Pope: It was the sixties and going into the seventies. And what was the name of that hustling? Larry, Larry Hustler was Hustler. Larry Flint. And, no, I just snorted. I don’t, I couldn’t
Chris Gazdik: remember the right name. Yeah,
John-Nelson Pope: no, you, I’m a, I’m a child of the seventies in the sixties, and so that was a big topic, that big deal, big talking point.
Flynn was his name. Right. Flynn goes into the Supreme Court and Flynn, he was a, he was a good old boy from Kentucky that lost just a hu head hustler. So
Chris Gazdik: love is like that. I feel like you might have a harder time. Describing pornography in a paragraph. You can write a paragraph about love, probably a lot easier.
But you know when you’re loved. Mm-hmm. You know, ’cause you experience it, you can feel it, you know it, you feel it, you experience it. And therefore it’s maybe hard for you to say what it is, but it’s not hard for [00:08:00] you to discern. That was a loving person in my life, and that was not a loving mm-hmm. Person in my life.
Does that sound fair? It
John-Nelson Pope: does sound fair. It’s like Fiddler on the roof. And Tevye ask his wife do you love me? He says that. And, and she says, do I what? And he, she doesn’t wanna say it.
Chris Gazdik: Yep.
John-Nelson Pope: But she says, this is what she does. And so she knew what love was. She just didn’t want to, she didn’t know how to express it.
Chris Gazdik: That’s somewhere in here. Did you know that? Did you, did you look? No, you’re, you’re totally going to it. You didn’t know that.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. I just jump all over the place.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, there’s, it’s, it’s somewhere in here where we’re, where I had to that to talk about, mm-hmm. I don’t know where it is, but I, I have, we’ll, we’ll get to it because that Fiddler on the roof.
Yeah. She talks about, I’ve cleaned your clothes and done your dishes and set up your food and cooked your meals for 25 years. That’s love, basically, you know, like, yes, I love you. That if that isn’t love, then I don’t [00:09:00] know what it is or something that, so that’s also that you quoted that kind of as well.
Right, right. Off the, the get go. Is this a feeling or is this a commitment? There’s a little bit of a debate. I think that, that would be fun to have, like, you know, or should we just say, John, you know, oh God, you could go off on this for a while with the what is love question, right. Yeah, you can just, baby, don’t hurt me.
Should I told you he’s gonna be singing good.
John-Nelson Pope: Sometimes you drive the pain into the heart of me. Tainted Love, tainted
Chris Gazdik: love. Keep going, John. Let’s just get outta your system. I get it out. Yeah. I love these song references that you do well, but no, no. Like is it, is it a feeling or is it commitment?
What’s, say you,
John-Nelson Pope: me? Yeah. Or or your listening audience too. You, well, I, I think it’s both. I think it’s both. And I. I don’t think it’s either or. I think it’s both and. Mm-hmm. And I think that that you, if you don’t have that feeling you’re [00:10:00] not connecting and so emotionally, and so you’ve gotta have that emotional connection or even an intellectual connection.
Chris Gazdik: Interesting. Let, let’s take it, let’s take a tangent here. But it
John-Nelson Pope: is what you’re doing too. I hadn’t, it’s active, right? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And that’s probably the landing spot. It is both. But, but it’s interesting ’cause I hadn’t even thought about this as I was prepping, but, but we definitely need to cover this.
Mm-hmm. This phrase that I cannot stand, Mr. Pope, have you ever heard of the phrase, I am in love. Ah. Oh, you see the YouTube facial expression? God, everyone. Even better. That’s the people used to, we just fell outta love, John.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, we’re doing premarital counseling and we’re so in love and right. And so and then you of course they have that great folk rock anthem of Amy.
I’m falling in and out of love with you. Now. That’s a good theme though, right?
Chris Gazdik: That’s [00:11:00] actually not bad. I don’t follow Amy,
John-Nelson Pope: what’s, what you going to do? I’m so, so in love with you for a while. Maybe longer. Yeah. Yep. So you fall in, in and out of love and there’s a consistency there. The consistency is that there is inconsistency, but there is a sense that you’re in, you’re in that wavelength.
Chris Gazdik: Okay? Let’s go with this for a little bit. This, this is a whole, a whole different, a whole different section, okay? Whole different segment. What do people mean when they say I’m in love? Or I’ve fallen out of love and can you fall in and out of love many times over the course of a month, year, or decade of marriage,
John-Nelson Pope: what it’s English is very, is not a very good language to be able to define love.
And I think if you could, it’s a bold statement that, okay, it’s a, [00:12:00] there’s only one word for love in, in English. There’s in, in Greek. Greek there’s like four different types of love. Oh, they actually use those words. Yeah. Okay. Use them to describe, and so we don’t have a word for that. And so when somebody says, I’m in love, we’re, a lot of times when somebody says, I’m in love or I’m out of, I’ve fallen out of love, that’s infatuation.
Right. Okay. Right. I, I see that on your,
Chris Gazdik: and what does infatuation mean?
John-Nelson Pope: It’s, it’s more about you than it is about your, the person that is to be the object of your, your subject, of your desire. Mm. Okay. In other words, the person, it’s, it’s, you’re treating another person as an eye it, not as an eye vow, not,
Chris Gazdik: I remember.
A very long time ago, John, I was in therapy with a particular guy and he, he was separated and divorcing. He was really rocked by it. Pretty funny [00:13:00] fellow. Mm-hmm. A reformed gang member, actually. Oh my goodness. I think that’s true. Yeah. You’d never know it. ’cause he was so fun, loving and carefree.
Uhhuh just a, just you know, really enjoyed him. Very, very warm fella. And anyway, in this process that he was in and kind of refiguring himself out and all, we kind of ddu deduced that this feeling, this sense, this infatuation, this I’m in love feeling is, is just God’s little gift. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah.
And, and God’s little gift for a period of six whole months Uhhuh, because as you know. John, I’m sure you do. Listener listening. You know, when you meet somebody new, the oxytocin is flowing, man, the chemicals are banging. You know? It is so exciting. Oh, love hormone. Oh baby. Everything’s fired up and kicking and it’s just so wonderful ’cause it’s so new.
And literally you’ll have that for six months. Between six months and two years it dissipates. And at two years, at least by two years, it’s gone, if not earlier. Mm-hmm. So that’s God’s little gift. That’s what we [00:14:00] figured out in, in a uhhuh in therapy together. That’s
John-Nelson Pope: what Well, it sounds like he’s a very wise man.
It’s
Chris Gazdik: what I’ve called it ever since. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was very, very, very astute. And we did a lot of good work together. But I, I
John-Nelson Pope: would hazard to, to venture to say that I think that that. It really becomes love when you make it past that six months and then it becomes more about the other person than it does about how you feel.
Yeah. And yeah, and, and maybe that’s nature’s way of, and God’s little gift is to keep people to stay with one person and as long as possible. And and then what do you mean by that? Yeah. Well, I think I. You know, we’re, I know people like to talk about having multiple partners and that’s normalizing it and that sort of thing.
Boy, there’s a lot of
Chris Gazdik: normalization. Right. But I think whole things going on now. Yeah. But
John-Nelson Pope: actually the best way that one can develop a relationship is to have a, a [00:15:00] significant other than just one person. I mean, it’s just, it’s between two people. That’s my, my sense of it is, I think that’s the building block of families, and that seems to be in every culture, even if there’s, they’re polyamorous in some ways, there’s always a dominant relationship.
Chris Gazdik: Mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: So
Chris Gazdik: dominant relationship, meaning male,
John-Nelson Pope: female between and so there’d be a primary even in, in traditional cultures. There’s there’s the first wife as opposed. Oh, really? Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: They have that title and, right. Polygamy and all.
John-Nelson Pope: A polygamy. Right. Okay. Even a polyamorous. I didn’t know that. Yeah.
A polyamorous and polygamy. There’s a lot of
Chris Gazdik: different forms. I thought this was cool the way this article read your Margaret Mead, which, which, which, by the way, we have a lot of, I have a lot of references with this particular episode, so you’ll, you’ll love the show notes if you wanna dig in. There’s different places to dig in and articles and such.
Not so much. Researchy though, but just a very well varied piece of, of things. Even have a [00:16:00] little Wikipedia going. But from this article, it was a nice reframe. Love an intense feeling of, of deep affection. Okay. That’s, that’s cool. I don’t have a major problem with that, but I love the way it was reframed to love is to feel and act lovingly.
Mm-hmm. Right. And that’s what we talked about. Mm-hmm. It’s an and for sure it’s both. But there’s an interesting comparison they put on with domestic violence situations where the person says they’re in love. That is intense infatuation John. Mm-hmm. And you know this with people that are actually, are narcissistic uhhuh or abusive to their partners.
They’re madly in love. Right? Love bombing. Three dozen roses brought to my client, very controlling, true story. Three dozen roses were brought to my client’s place of work to. Or at least a year after they had been broken up.
John-Nelson Pope: Oh my
Chris Gazdik: gosh. Right. It’s like, bro, like that’s okay. That person’s in love, but it’s not love.
Right. So in domestic violence, you know, we can see even I can’t [00:17:00] live without you, you know? But then it’s violent. So we can see clearly that this isn’t love, that loving someone extreme, you know? But lesser situations are, you know, in the same vein. So ba basically like to me, there’s so much that goes in like, yeah, I agree.
Like in marriage, you know, one of the things I think about marriage is really just about serving the other person. Mm-hmm. It’s not about your feeling and what you’ve got going on. It’s more, you know what you’re doing to love this person. Right. To, to do, to be, to be with, you know, to engage, to support, to encourage, you know, what’s the bible thing that everyone says at the weddings?
You know, love is kind, love is, you know. Yeah. It’s from first Corinthians
John-Nelson Pope: 13. There you go.
Chris Gazdik: Everyone quotes it
John-Nelson Pope: from Paul, right. In, in talking about it as patient kind. It’s all these traits. All these traits, you know, and it’s, it’s not demanding. It’s, it’s one, it’s giving. Mm-hmm. It’s open. [00:18:00]
Chris Gazdik: So is it fundamentally a choice?
So if it’s a commitment, if it’s a feeling, and it’s all these traits, do you choose it? Hmm. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Interesting. Do you choose who you love? Is it, I have on my ring. Okay. Inside here. It’s a beautiful ring. It’s, yes, it’s my wedding. Band. Yep. And I had it for 43 years. Yeah. That’s awesome. And this is Dega, which is Latin.
It’s, we choose to love. Ah, that’s what it says in there. Yes. Love that. And it’s also from Joshua, as for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord, which is actually following becoming a people of God. Mm-hmm. But, but for joy in me, it was the idea that we, we choose to love. And there’s that aspect, and that is a reminder that we’re imperfect.
But no, nevertheless, when we don’t feel like we’re much [00:19:00] in love, we can always go back to our vows and say, we do choose. That’s real. It’s real for us. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. This is where I had the Fiddler on the roof, and, and I, I put in the show notes there. Are you ready, John? Are you game here? Because I figured you would be down with the Fiddler on the roof, right?
And you brought it up and went with it. Even the proper didn’t, even names and stuff didn’t, yeah. You know, that I didn’t know. So Tevy the main character, is that,
John-Nelson Pope: what’s her name? Hi, his name is Tevye Tevy. I can’t recall her name.
Chris Gazdik: Oh, okay. Do you know yeah. Neil’s not gonna pull that, I don’t think.
But, so she’s asked, the main character’s asked, do you love me? And she responds For 21 years, I have washed your clothes, cook your meals, cleaned the house, given you children, milk your cow. She asks Then, is that not love? What is Yeah, it’s, it’s love in action.
John-Nelson Pope: Yes. Love is real in action. Is real, is in action.
So it’s tangible that in that sense. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s not just some ethereal of. Kind of [00:20:00] Greek thought that just is out there
Chris Gazdik: in the ether. It’s, it’s real. And I really feel like there’s a lot of pain out there with this where people get really confused and misunderstand their own feelings and, and misattribute, particularly with the in love reality.
Mm-hmm. They don’t know what they’re feeling. Mm-hmm. And how to shake it through and creates a lot of pain. Mm-hmm. I mean, do you see that in your therapy? Because I think I do a lot. I do,
John-Nelson Pope: I do. Yeah. I do. I, I see a lot of people who, who have a, a, a broken cons. I’m looking at this and it, I’m adding a value judgment.
But then that’s my, my perspective, I guess, and that is, is that they mistake love for, let’s say I. Kind of a, a relationship where there’s a disproportionality of power or, or, or something. [00:21:00] So if this person finds me attractive then I’m gonna make sure that I will love him, but he can beat the crap out of me and, you know, I’ll accept that because I’m, I’m not worthy of being loved.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So
Chris Gazdik: that’s a deep level of confusion. Yeah. It’s about it. You know, I mean, or, or when we get warped life experiences that help us to interpret, you know, what somebody does and what love does feel like that can get warped. Mm-hmm. Contrary to what I said a little while ago,
John-Nelson Pope: I had a girlfriend 50 years ago.
Yep. 50 years. I’ve always had a little rubber tire here. And, and, and she would, she would pinch me and say. Get rid of it. Get rid of it. She wouldn’t accept me. Oh man. I would, yeah. She didn’t just accept me for who I was. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: That’s brutal. It was brutal. That’s me, I guess what myself fishing, I don’t like her.
If that is you, shame on you, whoever you are out there, hopefully listening. Yeah. That’s terrible, John. [00:22:00]
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, it was, but she wasn’t seeing me. No. Yeah. And, and normally, you know, that’s from a female doing that. ’cause traditionally it’s those guys that are, you know, look, look at my face. Not, you know. Yeah.
Not at my assets.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I, I just, yeah. I, I, I think there’s a lot there in the, in the pain point that people, that people have not feeling accepted. Not, you know, I, I write about in the marriage book, right? Mm-hmm. You know, the Golden Egg we’ve talked about a few times recently, and that’s a bit of the theme this week, this month, rather, you know, with relationship dynamics and connections and bonds.
June weddings, how Engage June. You know? Yeah. Oh, well, there’s a lot of weddings. You’re right. June and May for sure. I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t think about that actually. But, but you’re right. But, but what I’m saying is, is like, you know, the pain point that people have with this mm-hmm. You know, and the confusion that they have, even in way of like, you just aptly described, you know mm-hmm.
Warping their views about this. It is, is, [00:23:00] I, I, I, I think more common than you would think. Mm-hmm. I mean, our divorce rate is 50% still mm-hmm. Around the world, I think too. Yeah. You know,
John-Nelson Pope: and, and, and I think the reason why it’s so high is actually, is just that people have been married once, we’ll get married again and again.
And so it’s not as high in terms of couples as, as like 50% of couples end up in divorce. But it’s, the marriages are, they’re repeat marriages.
Chris Gazdik: No, I think I would’ve pushed back at that. But you’re the researcher. I, I. Probably the way I always thought about it is our divorce rate actually has gone down just a little bit with millennials because they’re waiting a long time to get married and they’re, they’re waiting too long to have kids and even longer to have kids.
Yeah. It scares me for them, but, but, but I thought the first marriages had about about 45
John-Nelson Pope: society. We need more kids.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, we do. We, but I, but I thought 45 to 50 was four first marriages. People that are in their second marriage, their [00:24:00] rates are like 60, 65, and then third marriages is like 70, 80% likely to end in divorce.
So, so I It does,
John-Nelson Pope: it does raise the rate overall. Does it? Does it? Yeah. Yeah. But, but I’m saying is that most people I would say a plurality of people don’t get divorced. Yeah. About 50% I thought though, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Anyway, I, I’m just, maybe I’m just confused. Well repeat. I have statistic, I have an
John-Nelson Pope: uncle that got married five times.
Okay. Yeah. Okay. Great guy. He’s a doctor. Wonderful guy. But he, he, he just would, would marry flippantly or flippant. Yeah. I mean, he, he, he got it wrong until he got it wrong. And I guess what
Chris Gazdik: I’m saying is he doesn’t affect the 50% statistic, does he? Yes, he does. You think he does? Okay. Well, then’s why? I’m confused.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Because I thought that was first marriages. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you’re saying across the board that affects [00:25:00] Affects overall? It
John-Nelson Pope: lowers it. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Okay. Well, but I mean, I could be wrong, but I don’t think it matters for our conversation, but I’m, I’m sure I’m, I’m sure I’m the wrong one, John. I’m No, I’m, let’s go theories and perspectives a little bit and, and get into a little bit of the types of love.
Right. I, I’ve never heard this before. I almost have to read it because it was, and it was fascinating and I wanted to think about it. There’s a de definitely check out this article where, where a guy named Sternberg’s Yeah. Got a triangle theory of love that I thought was. Really pretty interesting in the way that he kind of conceptualized this.
John-Nelson Pope: Mm-hmm.
Chris Gazdik: So he el he has three different elements or components to the ultimate kind of love that we wanna get to. One is intimacy and that’s liking somebody passion, which is the infatuation that we were talking about. And then commitment, which we’ve been talking about, which is empty love, like the fiddler.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So the, the lady in the, in the fiddler [00:26:00] on the roof was really committed
John-Nelson Pope: uhhuh,
Chris Gazdik: but didn’t really have any infatuation, didn’t have any passion. She was just doing stuff. And was she intimate? Meaning did she like him? I, I don’t know, but it didn’t come clear. But she definitely had the commitment. So this guy made combinations here to create like different.
Understandings of the combinations you can have and what that outcome is. So if you have intimacy and commitment, you have a companion love. So you’re great companions. Mm-hmm. Right? Because you have the intimacy part, you like them, and then you have the commitment part. You do things for them. Okay. But another form is a combination of commitment and passion.
And that’s a, a fatuous love, right? Yes. So, so you have the, I do things for you also. I’m, I’m, I’m infatuated. I get turned on and whatnot. Mm-hmm. But you’re missing the third. So con, consummate love is all three of [00:27:00] them. Mm-hmm. And you’re, I guess we’re looking for ultimately to consummate, you know, this, this pairing that we’ve created, this partnering that we’ve done with all three.
And you break down that
John-Nelson Pope: word it means with Okay. Does it, so in other words, so what you’ve done is it’s all in encompassing Okay. And, and consummate. That is, you have the intimacy, you have the commitment, and you have the passion. And all three factors are very important. Even into old age, it’s very important.
Chris Gazdik: Well, maybe even more so in old age, right? Or can we say as you get older and you really master some of the relationship dynamics, you know that you can learn about and that you can choose to be engaged with, that you can grow with, right? Those are important themes. And, and, and get to a place where you have better loving relationships, also better sex than you ever had when you were younger too, I think is a true statement.
When you begin getting with a partner, as you [00:28:00] really feel safe and get in that golden egg space, you can
John-Nelson Pope: lose yourself into that. Into that relationship that, into that intimate relationship.
Chris Gazdik: I, I, I think so. And, and, and don’t you think when we mature and we grow into some of these things and develop stronger elements of all three of Steinberg’s kind of thing, at least you achieve that more.
John-Nelson Pope: Right.
Chris Gazdik: And I guess, I guess I would point that out for people that are like struggling now mm-hmm. To create hope, which is where you expect something positive’s going to happen. Right? Right. To expect that we can grow together, we can get back in love, we can re-align ourselves. It
John-Nelson Pope: takes commitment. I I’m thinking about the incel movement now.
Involuntarily celibate folks that they have
Chris Gazdik: the incel. I do not know what that is. Do you know what that is? Nah, I’m not,
John-Nelson Pope: they’re, they’re the guys that live in the basement Okay. At their parents’ house and their Oh boy. Their thirties and their forties. Comic book. Yeah. Comic book guy. Okay. From the Simpsons video game.
Like, yeah. They don’t, they’re not, [00:29:00] they’re not wanting to be celibate, but then they’re not. Wanting to to risk, risk and reach out, because love is a risk if you really, it’s not just Yeah. So
Chris Gazdik: prayerless, isn’t it? Yeah, it is.
John-Nelson Pope: Prayerless can be prayerless because you basically, you give you give your most, you, you strip away yourself.
You’re naked with somebody. Mm. And there’s a possibility that person is not gonna reciprocate or that person will will chew you up and deny you.
Chris Gazdik: Deny you, betray you,
John-Nelson Pope: betray you,
Chris Gazdik: leave you, yeah. Yeah. A lot of stuff. There’s definitely a downside and a negative side that’s of risk. Mm-hmm. But yeah.
But so, so they’re just, they fall into that trap where they don’t really have the ability to engage or reach out. Right. Yeah. In, in con, so, okay. Yeah, no, I’ve never heard that term. Yeah. So
John-Nelson Pope: do you know any incel Neil? [00:30:00]
Neil Robinson: I don’t. Well, I probably did when I wanted to go play magic a lot more, but I don’t, I don’t really know any personally now, but I mean, that is, I mean, I think I’ve even seen women who do that now.
Mm-hmm. The idea that you just don’t put yourself out there, you avoid the opposite sex. Mm-hmm. And just live the life that you wanna live, and you just don’t care. Mm-hmm. So it’s definitely I’m So, it’s funny how many terms Chris doesn’t know sometimes with everything. He’s kind of a,
John-Nelson Pope: Hey, I’m 72 years old, man.
I, I’m out of it cloud. He, he’s
Neil Robinson: more of a boomer than you, John. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Ouch. Yeah. Ouch. It’s okay. Ouch. Boomer. Alex, Hey Boomer. Hey, I’m a, I’m an Xer. I just wanna point that out. But Xers can be air 80 too. Mm-hmm. Or not, you know, be in the clouds. Mm-hmm. All right. Let’s talk about the, along with the Steinberg’s thing.
I just thought that was a new and different thing. Mm-hmm. But you said something interesting about the language, John. I thought that’s kind of fascinating. ’cause I, I, I would love to like be able to know other languages because you, Greek, I, I know none. I mean, they tried to teach me Spanish in school ’cause I had to get there.
But, you know, Uhhuh, it’s just, it’s interesting that they actually use these [00:31:00] different words like phileo love and, and Rose Love has different, and
John-Nelson Pope: Latin even has different words for love. Yeah. But not as many as Greek. And there’s, there are variations on it. But the, the thing is, is that you have to have in a, in a relationship elements of, of, of.
All the love, and I think Sternberg actually kind of touches onto this. Okay. Do you think? Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know much about Sternberg, but the, what he describes it as is very analogous to what CS Lewis says in the, in the Four Loves which is storey, which is affectionate or familial love, philia, which is friendship, Philadelphia city of Freedom, brotherly love Eros, romantic love, and agape.
And well, we’re all after. We’re all after, which is unconditional love, which is
Chris Gazdik: so not human. Right.
John-Nelson Pope: [00:32:00] Yeah. And there’s question I would love to be able to say that I do that. The question is whether we’re capable of it, right? But it, we are aspiring for it and I, and that we can just accept that God loves us.
In that sense, if assuming that you believe in God that you would be able to, to receive that unconditional love. We, in counseling we call it unconditional positive regard. Right. And make that environment, and you were talking about the Golden Egg. Well, that’s where you would find agape Love got babe.
Right. Okay. So I think in every relationship you have to have those four types
Chris Gazdik: of, so you wanna combine all of that together. Mm-hmm. In all relationships though?
John-Nelson Pope: No, in, in a intimate
Chris Gazdik: relationship. Okay. In ultimately is part marriage, physically,
John-Nelson Pope: emotionally, marriage partnership with somebody. Okay.
Chris Gazdik: But not like family or other close relationships and such.
Right. Right. Okay. So you’re talking mostly about marriage love. Yeah. [00:33:00] I was confused by that. But
John-Nelson Pope: I think most of us keep together because of story Love in families, you know, which is.
Chris Gazdik: I, I, I think, I think this is kind of what I meant off the get go where love is, like pornography where, you know, pornography mm-hmm.
If you see it, but it’s hard to describe it. Yeah. Like I, in relationships where, where, where we’re just buddies, we’re friends, Uhhuh, but, you know we love each other. Uhhuh. I mean, you know, John, I’ve come to love you as a, as a companion at Metro, LAA, Uhhuh, you know, you add so much here, you know, but, but I don’t think people like, you know, when you say intimacy, that you think, people think you’re talking about sex, but there’s so much more Right.
About loving a person than, than that. Mm-hmm. And I think that people get really confused about that. Mm-hmm. You know, again, where we drop off and fail to really offer people what it is that, you know, we, we’d like to be able to be unconditional, accepting people, agape. And I just, people really, really, really, really struggle with all of that.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. I, [00:34:00] well, I, I agree. I, I wish I could be more you, you know, say, oh, okay, well this is what you have to do to, to demonstrate or be in love, but it’s, or, or to have that authentic love between a couple, for example. Mm-hmm. Or it’s a lot more, it, it’s more complicated than that. I wish it but I have, you have friends from childhood, right?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. What kind of friendship would that be? Would that be Elia?
Chris Gazdik: To, for, to me it’s, it’s, I mean, there’s a, there’s a couple people that I’ve known for a long, long time. Probably no one from childhood, childhood, more, more college, but but those are deep, connected, loving friendships. That, and when
John-Nelson Pope: you say, do you love that person?
I, I, I say I love, I have a couple of friends that I say, I love you.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: And they’re males. Right. And we’re not into any sexual relationship whatsoever. It is more of a, of a, [00:35:00] a respect. Acceptance. A respect. It’s a story. It’s, it’s an agape love. It’s a
Chris Gazdik: philia love. That’s, you know what’s funny, that just occurred to me, listening to it and, and having us talk.
How many people struggle to say that?
John-Nelson Pope: Mm-hmm.
Chris Gazdik: Do you know, there are people that have never heard their parent, not just dads moms as well, literally like the Fiddler on the roof. She didn’t wanna say it, she didn’t wanna make the, the proclamation. You know, I, I had a grandmother and a grandfather,
John-Nelson Pope: On my mother’s side that could, those words never came out my
Chris Gazdik: mouth.
Very scary to people, isn’t it? Right?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I, I have a friend of mine that literally, I, we were just talking about that just not too long ago. It just occurred to me. Mm-hmm. He’s never heard his dad say that to him. Mm-hmm. It’s like, wow. Like, really? That sucks. That, that, that this creates terror, I guess.
Mm-hmm. Right. As much as it can be. Wonderful. Yeah. It can be, it can bring up like, loss and travel. It’s a
John-Nelson Pope: very powerful word, isn’t it?
Chris Gazdik: Love is a
John-Nelson Pope: powerful word. Yeah. It’s, it’s verbage, it’s verb. It’s like a verb.
Chris Gazdik: [00:36:00] Yeah. Yeah. Well, they say adjective, noun, and verb. There’s, there’s a lot of elements to all of the mm-hmm.
Different dynamics that go into this. But I don’t know, I just got stuck on the moment for the moment in like the, the, the panic people feel about this issue. To the point where they won’t even utter the word.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. To have an authentic and transparent love can also be able to work through somebody’s difficult parts in their lives.
And so they may make it very difficult for you to say, I like this person, but you can in fact love somebody. And not necessarily like their personality or what, what’s going on with them.
Chris Gazdik: Yes. Yeah. I mean, I have a deep love and appreciation for the people that I’m close to. I mean, I, if I call you friend, that is not a simple word to me.
Mm-hmm. You know, and, and so there’s risks and I guess mm-hmm. The, the challenge that I would get to maybe get us to think about mm-hmm. Is how do we manage those risks? Mm-hmm. How do we manage [00:37:00] that fear based feeling? How do we manage those insecurities? Um-huh And that is a type of love, right. Self.
Right. Love. You Wanna, you wanna go with Whitney’s voice there? John, you wanna try, you wanna try a little? Whitney
John-Nelson Pope: and I,
Chris Gazdik: we’ll
John-Nelson Pope: always love you.
Chris Gazdik: She’s got such a powerful voice and that song actually was very influential to me as a young man, you know, in the eighties when that came out. Yeah. Maybe early nineties.
John-Nelson Pope: I was in the, I was in the Navy then when that came out. It
Chris Gazdik: was a, it, it was, it was ’cause, ’cause it’s hard to love yourself.
And so if you think about every and any,
John-Nelson Pope: and you really go to the top of the register. So, I mean, it shows a full commitment.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, she does. So, you know, we’re talking about these different types of platonic family, you know, and compassionate, you know, agape love. What about this idea of self-love? How do we engage that?
How do people are, do you think people are aware of the need to love themselves?
John-Nelson Pope: I don’t [00:38:00] think so, but you know, there’s a lot of biblical warrant for people to love themselves. It’s love thy neighbor as thyself. Why does, why does it, it gives the pre, the predicate is as thyself, basically. Yeah. You predicated on you love yourself.
You can’t love others unless you love yourself.
Chris Gazdik: And I think that’s a true statement. I mean, I don’t think that’s a colloquialism or just a phrase or thing to utter or even a joke. It’s, I, I, I think there’s, psychologically speaking, that’s dead on uhhuh. You cannot love other people if you
John-Nelson Pope: don’t love
Chris Gazdik: yourself.
John-Nelson Pope: Right? Is that a true statement? I think it’s a true statement, and I don’t think you’re being self-centered or anything of that sort is because you’re willing to look at yourself warts and all and say, this is who I am. I am wanting to always be at, I’m aspiring to be better and to be transformed and changed.
But you, you, you [00:39:00] accept yourself. On a very fundamental level, which would indicate self-love. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Do you think it’s easy or difficult? I think it’s difficult to engage in self-love.
John-Nelson Pope: I think we get it confused. It’s easy to be nar narcissistic in our love. I think it’s more difficult to actually have authentic acceptance.
Radical of ourselves. Of ourselves. Radical acceptance of ourselves if we are to accept ourselves. And again, I’m getting theological and that is
Chris Gazdik: hard to, not to with this topic, is it? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. And I, and is that if God radically accepts us for who we are. Then we can’t do a better job than God. We can’t have higher standards than God does.
Mm-hmm. For us. Mm-hmm. And so if he radically accepts us, that means God doesn’t make any junk and that we would accept that that doesn’t mean that [00:40:00] you stay where you are and doesn’t mean that you act like a dick. Anything or live like that, you are ab absolutely being transformed. And that’s another aspect of love and love.
A showing of authentic love is showing an authentic transformation that goes in a process that goes through a lifetime.
Chris Gazdik: You know, we had a guest on the show, John, not too long ago, if you remember Ben Higgins. Right. The Bachelor was on. And I was so impressed with that young man and the way that he was sharing, going through his process really of, of identifying.
He didn’t know it, but it was true. And I think it’s way more common, you listening here, that you feel this way and probably don’t realize it or have felt this way at some point where he discovered that he felt he was unlovable.
John-Nelson Pope: Mm-hmm.
Chris Gazdik: And that’s all about, I think the, the knowing of oneself and what you fail.
Mm-hmm. What you struggle mm-hmm. With [00:41:00] the mean thoughts that you have. Other people can’t see them. Mm-hmm. You know, there are people that, that believe that they’re, they’re, they’re a bad person and they’re not really good and they’re critical. So they, by the
John-Nelson Pope: lie of being othered, they’re othered. They have other uttered othered themselves so that they, they are isolated from others.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Because it, it, and it’s because I’m not, I’m not quality enough to reach out. I’m not enough, I’m not lovable uhhuh any of these types of themes and thoughts. And I think they’re way more common than what we would think Uhhuh.
John-Nelson Pope: I I’m wondering if one of our aspects of, of, of loving is that we are to be, and this sounds trite, trite.
Yeah. Trite is, is we do circle widening. We, we love the unlovely. I. We start with ourselves, we are the unlovely and we give ourselves validation and we have and that we [00:42:00] are of infinite value. And by doing that, we can go out and give other people infinite value of themselves.
Chris Gazdik: Listen, when I’m doing marital counseling, and John, I’m sure you’re in a very similar, same boat.
There’s a lot of individual work going on, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, sure it’s dynamic when we’re creating something together, but each person in the room when I’m working with a couple is, is really needing to resolve and look at like, what am I bringing to the table? Mm-hmm. And if you don’t do that, your couple’s counseling sessions are not going to be very effective.
Right. Is that a fair statement?
John-Nelson Pope: That’s a fair statement. You know, and you have somebody that is ensconced in saying, I don’t need to change. And I, and I think I mentioned a few weeks ago that I’m start that, that I, and you mentioned this and you challenged me on this, was that the that you’re seeing more and more women that, think that they don’t have to change in terms of a re [00:43:00] of, of who they are. Mm-hmm. And in terms of marriage counseling or, or relationship counseling. Mm-hmm. And because traditionally when I did premarital it was, it was always the dude. It was the dude. Yeah. But you’ve seen a little bit of a transition and change on that
Chris Gazdik: women are resistant,
John-Nelson Pope: are resisting.
Yeah. And I think again, it’s risking because you have to change. You have to risk change. And I think one of the things you have to do in terms of in terms of marriage is never. If you’re having conflict in your marriage is not to give up. There’s a point where you, let’s say you, if you’re abused physically and verbally and all that, and sexually abuse.
Chris Gazdik: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There are reasons to end that relationship. Right. But, but to say I stream crime, maybe addiction. That’s a question mark. But yeah, there’s a few, right? Mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. But I don’t feel in love anymore. I’m gonna leave.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: I thought I had a client like that. [00:44:00] He, he gave it all up because he just didn’t feel it.
Chris Gazdik: Right.
John-Nelson Pope: And he could not see, I couldn’t make him see, I could give him to be a guide. Be a guide and, and things. But he chose not to do that because he just decided I’m not gonna love her anymore. Right. And he wasn’t in an affair or anything of that sort. I. And it’s just, and, and I felt, I felt so bad for him.
I felt like he’s so self isolated.
Chris Gazdik: It’s a pain point. John. That’s what I was getting at a little bit ago. The pain that I think people are in Uhhuh, when you get into that state, it’s kind of like, it’s, it’s, I would just imagine it as torturous. Mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: You know, I’m working with somebody now with the issue.
We, we’ve identified with enmeshment, Uhhuh, and because of enmeshment, when they were very young, they struggled [00:45:00] because their, their caretaker was way too close. Uhhuh creepy, close. Mm-hmm. Long hugs, cuddling, kind of weird stuff. A little bit uhhuh. Well, he feels horrible about the fact that he is uncomfortable now as an adult.
Doing, hugging, cuddling, touching, you know, intimacy with his wife is, is struggle spot uhhuh because it’s just pain uhhuh, you know, it feels bad. It feels off. You can get rewired. Or was
John-Nelson Pope: he, was he mishandled by manhandled a great word, isn’t it? Yeah. By same sex or was it a opposite? Sex. Opposite
Chris Gazdik: sex.
Right. The opposite sex. And, and it wasn’t exactly sexual abuse, but again, it was a lot of creepy, you know, feelings and whatnot. And, and what I’m getting at though is whether you feel like you’ve fallen out of love. Mm-hmm. And you should be nice to your spouse. You feel bad about yourself. Mm-hmm. Or not comfortable with hugging and I should be.
And so the critical self kind of just rains down. It. There’s a real destructive, painful place that people get [00:46:00] into.
John-Nelson Pope: Me Too movement going to this. Yeah. Okay. Women were sexually and and you’re hearing some from men too. And it could be in the same sex and sort of, sort of We need more, but yeah, it’s happening.
Okay. But here, here’s the question that I, I’m, I’m, I’m hearing is I think people may be so careful now that they are not hugging and and holding because they’re afraid they’re going to get in trouble or that. View as a being as a p
Chris Gazdik: with other people. With other people. Meaning there’s a fear of being safe from being accused.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Do you think I don’t, I don’t, I haven’t thought about that being a, a huge factor in all of this. Mm-hmm. I’m sure I’m wrong. Say a little bit more where, where you’re seeing that. Well,
John-Nelson Pope: I, I think you’ve seen that in academia a bit. Well, it might be why I don’t see it. Yeah. Or you might see it.
Certainly I love academia where there’s possibility of power differentials. Anywhere there’s a power differential. [00:47:00] And so you get somebody that is employer. Employer, employee. Yeah. Or coworker. Yeah. Okay. So, and, but I think people may be careful not to hug or to touch because they are afraid they’re gonna get accused.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Yeah. Not expressing affection or appreciation. Mm-hmm. Or a love for somebody. Mm-hmm. Because we have such twisted views about the danger mm-hmm. And inappropriateness that we get into. Mm-hmm. I, I guess I could, it’s
John-Nelson Pope: almost a puritanical Victorian. Do you
Chris Gazdik: think that’s new or?
John-Nelson Pope: I think it’s, yeah. Yeah. I do.
I do. I think there’s
Chris Gazdik: increased risk in that way now, I think.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. I think that actually people as bad as the bad old days were in the fifties and, and men were doing things that they shouldn’t have done. I. That there actually was more an ability to, to be able to, to actually hold and touch [00:48:00] people.
I think the sixties kind of freed people up a little bit more, and now we’ve gone full circle and we’ve gone to where I. We’re coming back.
Chris Gazdik: Well, you know, I guess I can see that a little bit more, John, because I, I, I, I, I, I guess I saw it in a different form. You’re making me think about people that have just not wanted to take the risks.
Mm-hmm. And, and they remain disenchanted from the, the risks that falling in love or making companions and whatnot would have, I think there’s great ambivalence now. Mm-hmm. You know, millennials don’t get married for a reason. Uhhuh, you could think it just to be financial, but I think there’s a, I really wanna make sure this is the right thing.
I, I really, really wanna drag my feet. I’m procrastinating. I’m not sure. I’m not comfortable. Let me really just drag this along. I think there’s a lot of fear in that. More so
John-Nelson Pope: I feel bad for millennials. I feel, and that sounds like I’m being judgy.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. What do you mean?
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. I feel bad because they, they don’t have, I.
[00:49:00] A, a lot of times they, they’re as puritanical in their relationships. Even if they’re having let’s say anything kind of goes kind of sex is, they’re also saying This is what is a good relationship and this is a in, in order for me to satisfy myself. And it’s not being able to, to derive some sort of.
Intimacy with someone else, because that’s truly the way I think people are able to, I don’t know how to explain. It’s, no, I think I’m there with you. I mean, there’s a, there’s a new puritanical there. I think the zrs are, are a little freer. The Generation Z. Generation Z, yeah. Yeah. Or
Chris Gazdik: wonder remember by z general alcohol.
Yeah. So they’re a little, yeah. So you think that millennials are, are, have gotten a little bit more proper with it and, and, and sort of staunchy I think they have
John-Nelson Pope: more boundaries. Yeah. [00:50:00] Yeah. Distance. Distance. And so they, they, again, it’s the, it’s the guy that’s the, the overweight guy, that stereotype that is in his, downstairs or it, it’s a female who, it’s a lot more females nowadays are withdrawn, shut down, who doesn’t have a relationship and said, okay, I’m asexual.
Chris Gazdik: Mm. Oh yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Okay. Or a guy says, I’m asexual
Chris Gazdik: you. I see that a lot more now than I used to. Yeah. I, I, I think that’s
John-Nelson Pope: a fall. I think it is.
Chris Gazdik: Doesn’t make any sense to me.
John-Nelson Pope: It doesn’t make any sense to me. ’cause I think we’re all sexual.
Chris Gazdik: Yes. A hundred percent. Okay. A hundred percent. Yeah. Now, now that being said, and I’m too sexy
John-Nelson Pope: for my shirt. I’m too sexy. That’s
Chris Gazdik: a song. Is that a song?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Right. Said Fred. Okay. You know that,
Chris Gazdik: but I do, but I, I I, I will say though, there are some biological pieces there that we, we, I, we may not understand.
Well, environmental might be strange. It might be rare, but when you’re dopamine, oxytocin, the bonding [00:51:00] hormone, even vasopressin is another hormone that what is vasopressin? I don’t know that one as well. It’s linked to Vegas nerves, long term commitment and para bonding. So, you know, there’s, there’s, there are these things and that, that sort of help us biologically engage in the process of really connecting and bonding and loving.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. But I think if you. Okay. But that’s more here, here is someone who is not a physiologist or anything of that sort. I’m thinking if you don’t use it, you lose it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Absolutely. Good. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve thought that too as well. Sex drive is one of those types of things, you know, that, that, that I, I talked with many men that have just no sex drive.
Mm-hmm. It could be testosterone or estrogen problems. Mm-hmm. But there’s also emotional reasons that block you from being interested. Mm-hmm. There’s, there’s a lot going in between our ears that John, we know with trauma. Mm-hmm. That, that, for instance, that just blocks people. Mm-hmm. And then, and then they’re in that terrible pain spot [00:52:00] alone and isolated and very self-critical.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. If you don’t get into the arena. Yep. If you don’t get into the arena, there’s no ever, you’re never gonna be able to know whether you are. Someone that is, is able to love or everybody’s capable of loving, I think, but Oh, but
Chris Gazdik: they don’t believe that John. Yeah. I’ve heard people say that too. I don’t know that I’m able to.
Mm-hmm. Or Wow. It’s a surprise that I was able to have feelings for somebody like that happens.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. That happens for people. It’s nothing better than feeling in love. And I know, man.
Chris Gazdik: I know, right? Yeah. It is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. The, the old people told me when I was a kiddo, John, they said, you know, it is better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all.
Yeah. You heard this. That’s a little Shakespeare. Is it Shakespeare? Yeah. Alright, let’s, let’s, let’s talk about how to cultivate this. What do we want to do to really get into cultivating these types of relationships where we can have loving [00:53:00] relationships? And the first thing you know, I wanna highlight again, is you have to focus on loving yourself first.
Right? If you feel horrible inside, you’ve
John-Nelson Pope: lost that love feeling. Here’s another song, just quick question for you, and that mm-hmm. You need to get yourself with groups that kind of encourage loving relationships. What do you mean? In other words, if you don’t have it in your family okay. And you have a family of origin that’s really screwed up Mm.
That you’re able to, to find yourself a, a relationship where there’s not a power differential, where there’s a sense that people are accepted and as close to unconditionally as it possibly be. Mm-hmm. That could be a synagogue, that could be a church, it could be a mosque, it could be something.
I’ll tell you where a lot of people
Chris Gazdik: find love, not partners, but love is in aa. Mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: So you’re right John. I I love that. You know that, that’s so, so let me finish my thing of, of self-love focusing on that first, I, I feel like if there’s [00:54:00] a lot of self-criticism, if you’ve had very critical primary caretakers, if you’ve had trauma where you’ve been shown horrible examples.
Of, of love, like domestic violence or heavily arguing parents even. You can get a lot of this really embedded deep inside of you where you’re not feeling, as we’ve talked a little bit about today, lovable. Mm-hmm. And, and enough, and, and when that’s, when that’s really the case, we have to really, really, really start there.
Mm-hmm. So, honestly, one of the best things you can do for your marriage is get into individual counseling mm-hmm. And reconcile with some of those things. Like, I wanna be hot on that.
John-Nelson Pope: Mm-hmm.
Chris Gazdik: And then we’re going to, in other
John-Nelson Pope: words, instead of finding the right person, you become the right person. Right. And I didn’t know that’s a bromide, but it’s, it’s, it’s a good statement.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s a good statement. And that’s what your charge is to do. That’s what your responsibility in. Mm-hmm. This a partnership that you and I have, you know, together. But I hadn’t thought about your point. [00:55:00] To move on to. Yeah. Get yourself in with groups of people. Choose your friends wisely is another phrase.
Right. I love that line of, say, often. You, you, because you learn from other people. Love.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. You’re not, you’re not gonna find that person necessarily on Grindr, you’re, or tender or whatever. You’re gonna find that person. You’re gonna find that person when you’re, by being open, being open and being in a place where you can share your vulnerabilities that you’re not, and that if you make, let’s say I, I wanna have as many sexual conquest as possible. You’re not gonna be open to having a real relationship where you have true intimacy and you will have true feeling of sexual pleasure when that time comes.
Chris Gazdik: You know what’s funny? I, I’m a big thing on making friendships. Mm-hmm. And we’ve talked about that on a show, and it just occurred to me, there’s a similarity there with what you just said.
Right? You create friendships or deepen friendships through your own use of vulnerability, uhhuh [00:56:00] you share and it gives the other person permission for them to share, and then you connect mm-hmm. Sometimes on your pain points, but very much on being vulnerable and genuine mm-hmm. With each other. And that’s the same thing in love, isn’t it?
Mm-hmm. Right? That’s what you were talking about. You’re being
John-Nelson Pope: transparent, vulnerable. You are willing to risk. Mm-hmm. Definitely have to have a willingness. You have to risk to risk. Right. And risk being rejected.
Chris Gazdik: Oh man, it’s so tough. Yeah. So, so tough. But that’s your challenge. And, and, and, and this is why I think a lot of people will just avoid it.
John-Nelson Pope: So there’s also an aspect of somebody said, well, I’ve been rejected so many times, I’m never gonna have love. But the problem with that is the person may not be practicing self-love and saying, okay, I have to, I’m gonna venture out. I’m gonna make myself vulnerable. [00:57:00] But by golly, I am loved and I’m worthy of loved of love.
Chris Gazdik: I guess what I’m centering in on a little bit today in my thinking is do you, and you listening here to this show are gonna say, oh yeah. But really and truly, if you think about like the idea, do you feel worthy. Of being loved? Are you worthy of that? What an awesome thing to say. And it’s scary to say it because it sounds a little narcissistic.
Yeah. Sounds a little uppity. Sounds a little weird. But truthfully, I think people knowing themselves fear that they aren’t worthy of that. Mm-hmm. I know with religion, I get tearful all Easter just because I feel like, you know, like, why would I be so acceptable to, you know, a high and almighty creator, little old me?
Like it’s, you know, like, ugh, it’s a, it’s a risky feeling,
John-Nelson Pope: uhhuh,
Chris Gazdik: but I know that I am, that it’s hard to feel that way, I guess is what I’m saying. Yeah. Because there’s so much negative interference in our life that comes at us all the time, and it, it, it weathers you out. It [00:58:00] wears you down. And, and I think that we have to kind of defend ourselves in that way.
Mm-hmm. Which starts with, you know, self-love and self-appreciation. It’s hard. It is. There’s another element before we run out of time. Boundaries. Right. Boundaries. What about boundaries with love? Why would that be a part of this, do you think? Yeah,
forging relationships, engaging, you know, new people and finding your love or engaging with your love.
John-Nelson Pope: Interesting. Even when I work. You know, I used to teach and I work with students. Okay. And they, they, they talk about, well, these, you have your counseling boundaries. And so they use this language and very careful in terms of counseling and, well, I have to have precise precision boundaries, and my boundaries have to, and basically they’re talking about rigid boundaries.
Yeah. They’re too rigid. Yeah. They’re not flexible. Distant. You’re permeable a little bit. You know, they, that, [00:59:00]
Chris Gazdik: that’s, remember I told you about that guy earlier in my career that he refused to even shake anybody’s hand? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: Like,
Chris Gazdik: what is
John-Nelson Pope: that? Yeah. Geez, man. Absolutely. Yeah. And I’m, I’m thinking that boundaries are, you do need boundaries.
Even in, there’s, there’s a point where my wife and, and I see this, is that she needs to be left alone. And she’s starting sometimes even within that confines of, of, of marriage, we, you know, I’m not always in her, in her headgear. I’m not always in her face. Mm-hmm. And she’s not in my face all the time, though.
She likes to talk more than I do. And
Chris Gazdik: you know, I think with this thing, it comes, I mean, how do we have love without talking about emotionally focused therapy, John? Okay. I I can’t do it. I have to do it at the end here. Yeah. Because, you know, this boundary setting basically, you know, you say yes when you mean yes and no.
When you mean no is the way I like to put the most simplest form of boundary setting. You know, people struggle to understand how [01:00:00] close or distant we wanna be because the pursuers in the relationship with the FT as we know the model. Mm-hmm. Episode 11, 1 0 1, 2 0 1, and 3 0 1. If you wanna get deep on that, you know, are fearful of, of, of you being too far away from me.
If I’m in the abandonment camp in involvement camp, you’re fearful of you being too close to me. Mm-hmm. And so you have this balance, right? Mm-hmm. I really feel like boundary management is one of the biggest pieces, uhhuh of successful relationship,
John-Nelson Pope: but you have to keep it permeable, right? You have to be able to be flexible.
It’s a balance. It’s a balance hard. There are times when you do have to step in. There’s times when you have to step back more than and be firm. But there’s also those times where it’s the give and take and it’s like a, a cell membrane. It’s an exchange that goes par. You still have that barrier. But you have that exchange of, of fluid, so to speak.
Yeah. Emotional fluids, emotional fluidity, and fluidity. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: You know, there’s one more thing that I wanna get in is [01:01:00] the awesome material I do like quoting David Chapman, you know, he did the love languages. ’cause now mm-hmm. If you think of the intention mm-hmm. That we want to forge. ’cause again, we’re talking about how do you really cultivate these relationships.
You have to be intentional and you have to know what gets your other person’s interest. You know, if your partner’s just not interested in sports and you’re gonna try to love on them and you wanna take them to a sporting event, John, that’s not gonna work real well. Right? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: It’s not gonna work with me.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Or if your partner is not real wordy and you wanna just level out this wordy stuff, I’ve, I’ve, I’m definitely guilty of this. It’s not the way that they receive. Mm-hmm. You have to figure out, oh, I need to wash their car, and they interpret that as love.
John-Nelson Pope: Mm-hmm.
Chris Gazdik: Right. Or it’s acts
John-Nelson Pope: of service, right?
Chris Gazdik: Acts of service, quality time together, verbal affirmations. Yeah. You know, gift giving is a weird one. I don’t understand the gift giving one. I feel like I’m missing one. Which 1:00 AM I missing? Gift giving love. Anyway. He has vi But there’s, there’s, there’s [01:02:00] different ways to love people. The, the, the main point I’m really trying to make with this idea here is figure out what really your partner likes.
And my wife likes flowers. Candidates. It’s different than yours. Yeah. And when you want to express, you do it their way. Uhhuh, hopefully they do it your way when they’re expressing. But we miss that. Yeah. We’re so myopic and egocentric that if I like sports and I wanna be loving to you, John, I’m gonna be sports tickets.
Yeah. And you’re gonna be like, bored. Yeah, right?
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I, I’ve been known to take my laptop to a baseball game pro, so, geez. That’s bad, isn’t it? I listen,
Chris Gazdik: you listen to the game, so that’s, that’s really funny.
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah. Yeah. But I’m, that’s just. That’s, and I’m not a regular guy that way. I don’t know why.
I’m just That’s fine. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: And we can accept that. Mm-hmm. You know, we have to understand that, I guess if I need a love on John Neil, I need to go buy like what? Opera tickets or something? Yes. Yes. Sweet. No, I know. [01:03:00] If I, if I really wanna be loving to John Neil, I think that we have to take him to the library and just spend hours upon hours with like an encyclopedia or something.
Excellent.
John-Nelson Pope: But I do, I have a crush. I think so. Mean to you, John. I’m sorry. Sorry. I have a, I have a crush. She plays bluegrass and she’s got alopecia. Her name is Molly Tuttle. I love her. Okay. So,
Chris Gazdik: and she has alopecia. She has alopecia. She’s, that’s a defining, defining characteristic. Yeah. All right. We need to taxi outta here a little bit, John.
Thoughts that you have. Lingering ideas. How did we do today?
John-Nelson Pope: Oh, I, well, I think we, we really got, I really grooved on this because it, we did get a little philosophical and, you know, that’s where my bin is. Mm. Mm-hmm. But I also know that it’s the authenticity that’s there and that we need to make our love language more resilient and more robust.
And basically is [01:04:00] that, when you say love, it’s, there’s a lot more to just that four letters. It’s, it’s more in terms of a very complicated, but elegant and usage I guess, basically. Okay. Yeah. So,
Chris Gazdik: alright. It is that time of the show where we are wrapping up, leaving you out and we’re gonna end with what we call the shrink wrap up.
That is where everyone on the panel kind of does a summary of the show. Neil gets to judge to see who quote unquote wins with the best description or summary of what we’ve got. So you just kind of did one, John, I’m gonna let you think and re in recover. Okay. We’ll recover it. I’ll go first. Is that okay?
Okay, good. Okay. So look, I, you know, this is a topic that really has so much. On the positive and the negative side of what people are feeling. You know, you might be listening to this show and have been betrayed, or you’re currently single and divorced. You know, there’s a lot of rejection and and pain that can be involved.
That’s why there’s the risk. And so I want us to understand that love is possible for you in your life. And it’s [01:05:00] wonderful when you get it. A loving mom, a loving friend, a loving partner, a loving community. But the best one that we’re really thinking sets up all the rest is a love for yourself. And that’s where we wanna start.
And then you begin to experiment and find your way into a healthy characteristics with a relationship with somebody else. And when you begin to get it, it’s like you can’t describe it, but you know it, you feel it. And it’s a lovely, lovely experience. So I want to really encourage people to experiment with this in their lives with their current spouse.
Or if you’re single with people that you’re dating or if you’ve in a hopeless state, even just in your mind and with yourself. That’s what I’m kind of after. Okay. That was a lot, wasn’t it?
John-Nelson Pope: It was great. I think love takes courage. Love takes a sense of, of, of being a aware, of, of making yourself ultimately vulnerable.
And yet it is through your vulnerability that you become the most [01:06:00] authentic and that you become the most capable of loving others. Because by being vulnerable, you, you open yourself up to being loved and loving yourself, and thus loving others.
Chris Gazdik: Okay. Good stuff. Neil. How you feeling over there?
Neil Robinson: I. I’m gonna go with John because I like the statement when he says, when you become vulnerable, I think it goes back to the question of is love of feeling or commitment?
You have to commit to that. Becoming vulnerable.
Chris Gazdik: Hmm.
John-Nelson Pope: Now you said it and I think he should get it.
Chris Gazdik: You know, he might meet, he might get a win today. Actually. I think he should get it win. Yeah. That. I, I feel like I was running on a little bit, John, I appreciated you with, with, with that. But Neil, you’re right.
You’re right on point. And you know what, what you added there, so it,
John-Nelson Pope: you know, I had this imagery Yeah. When you were talking Okay. About the, the fact that it, it’s something that it’s dynamic. Yeah, it [01:07:00] is. But, but it is, it’s like light particles. They’re are they particles or are they packets? Are they waves?
Oh, wow. And that’s what love is. It’s it, it’s all that. Wow. Yeah. There’s a aspect of it that’s very active. There’s another aspect of it that is very self affirming. Real sustaining. Sustaining. Yeah. And so it’s dynamic. It’s always dynamic.
Chris Gazdik: John, that is a great way to take us out. I really appreciate
John-Nelson Pope: that.
But you won. Chris Gazdik: So guys, stay well. We’ll see you next week.