Formal and Informal Power in Relationships: Especially in EFT – Ep329
In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we dig into how power shows up in our closest relationships — sometimes loud and obvious, sometimes quiet and emotional. Using insights from Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), we explore how control, influence, and vulnerability all play a role in love and connection. You’ll hear how formal power (like money or decision-making) and informal power (like silence, persuasion, or emotion) can create tension or trust depending on how they’re used. Join us as we uncover how shifting from power moves to vulnerability can transform relationships from struggle to strength.
Tune in to see Informal and Formal Power Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- In my closest relationship, where do I hold formal power and where does my partner hold it?
- How do informal, subtle forms of power show up between us (e.g., influence, emotional leverage)?
- When has power in my relationship felt balanced, and when has it felt misused?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/lifetime-connections/202310/power-dynamics-in-relationships
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #329 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Hello, this is Through a Therapist's Eyes. We have the whole gang together here on October the 2nd. I am Chris Gazdik, your primary host, and we have Mr. John Nelson-Pope from Braden, Florida down there. How are you, sir? John Nelson Pope (00:05) you doing hot hot yeah yeah Chris (00:16) doing hot. All right. And then we had Miss Victoria driving home and with our with our our video camera at the house. So she has left the office officially. Victoria (00:29) Yes, ⁓ look at this. The sun is even like pressing into my house at like the right angle. Chris (00:31) How are you doing today? I think you and I were- Beautiful. Beautiful. John Nelson Pope (00:39) Boy, you're rocking some nails there, Victoria. Victoria (00:42) Thank you! Chris (00:43) She showed me John Nelson Pope (00:44) Yeah, they're Chris (00:44) a John Nelson Pope (00:44) very nice. Yeah. Wow. Chris (00:44) couple hours ago, John. That's impressive, brother. Listen, this is through a therapist eyes where you get insights from a panel of therapists in your home or in your car, knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way. We're to be talking about formal and informal power in relationships today. We're going to kind of cover a little bit of the EFT component and how, you know, in real world, it kind of plays out in that. But we have power dynamics in our relationships all the time. And if we need to be kind of aware of You know how they work, how they operate. this is episode three 29. The questions that we have is, is in your closest relationship, where do you hold formal power and where does your partner hold it? And then how do informal subtle signs of power show up between us? Example, influence, emotional leverage, that sort of thing. And then when has power in your relationship felt balanced? And when has it felt misused. These are all relationships at work, at home, ⁓ in public, in work, relationships with your boss. There's lots of places that this comes in. let me see. We have the book still out through a therapist's eyes, John, Re-understanding Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self. And we'll probably highlight John Nelson Pope (02:02) That's right. And get that five star review too. Chris (02:05) Please tell them about their job. We provide content. We hope we entertain you. Blow up stereotypes, and stigmas and disseminate mental health information. But their job is what, John Nelson Pope (02:15) is to give us a five-star review and then also maybe even make some comments. And I think that'll help us rise to the top like cream, the cream that we are. Right. Chris (02:25) Very important, very important. John, we try to subscribe to John's level. Victoria, I think you and I are doing fine catching up. ⁓ Contact it through, contact it through atherapistize.com is where you kind of interact with us. Listen, we do this ⁓ new form. We're doing virtual now. We've kind of moved to the year 2025 and we're getting better. Matter of fact, I was just telling John or John, was just telling Neil, and now that you left the office, man, we're going to have booming internet. John Nelson Pope (02:34) So, yeah. Victoria (02:34) Yeah. Chris (02:55) Right now we have like 90 MBS speed. We're going to have a thousand here in a minute. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. We waited till you left in order to fix the, it's, it's actually just a spectrum had wire coppers, man. And we couldn't do it. So AT &T came through and finally giving us fiber. This is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out together guys. Let's fire up here and see what we're thinking. So. John Nelson Pope (02:58) Wow. Really? Victoria (03:03) like John Nelson Pope (03:04) Thank you. Chris (03:24) John, you were saying you see this in academia a lot, the formal and informal power structures. I was kind of surprised by that statement a little bit. What did you mean by that? John Nelson Pope (03:33) ⁓ well, I'll be the first to say this. People with the Pout High and Deepers and the Doctor of Education, they ⁓ have a very clever, a lot of times. And so they do the informal power. They kind of move away and kind of put people off their guard. And so they manipulate passively, or they also ⁓ just say I've got rank, I've got tenure, I'm and ⁓ I'm a full professor and you're not and or I'm the department. Yeah. So ⁓ gosh it's status play and you even see that with people. Yeah. I saw it less at Montreat than I did at University of Louisiana or at Texas A ⁓ but there was still that. ⁓ Chris (04:09) Wow. A status play. I am more important than you. John Nelson Pope (04:31) Yeah, I think it's because. Chris (04:32) Well, your whole life has been involved in this then with formal and informal power dynamics. Of course, that's really a non-statement because all of our lives have a lot of this, but the fact of the matter is, what I'm. John Nelson Pope (04:38) Yeah. Yeah, I would say particularly. You even see it. You even see it in the military. So, yeah. Chris (04:48) That's where I was going. That's where I was going. And in fact, I mean the military probably even more so because you got a lot of ego, you got a lot of, John Nelson Pope (04:56) Well, let me say this is that ⁓ if you don't make rank at a certain time, you have lost your status. And so ⁓ the higher status is the higher rank you are. so if you age out of your, let's say you remain a major or a lieutenant commander and you don't become a commander or a captain or a colonel, you are ⁓ Chris (05:04) Mm-hmm. Lesser than. John Nelson Pope (05:25) lesser than even though you may have a lot of responsibility. So, yeah. Chris (05:29) Right. Yeah, I think this is going to be a really pretty important and involved conversation to help folks really understand something that I think we don't really think a lot about. Power. What are power dynamics in relationships? ⁓ So before we go any further though, here in the front end, I want to welcome a new YouTube member. We don't have Victoria right now. She took a break for her clicks, but we got Sarah A. Little clap, John, there for little Sarah A. She is the newest YouTube. John Nelson Pope (05:57) Sarah A. Yes, welcome. Sarah Anonymous. Yeah, yeah. Chris (05:58) The newest YouTube subscribers. So please tell your friends. We're trying to get YouTube built up, man. We really need you to tell somebody, get those new subscribers kind of rolling in. We want to reach a thousand. We have a little ways to go, but that is a really important thing for us to achieve. So please tell a friend or two, a person or two. Victoria, you got to give snaps to Sarah A who joined. ⁓ Yeah. So please. Victoria (06:17) and Yes, I heard, I heard, I couldn't talk. John Nelson Pope (06:24) I can't give snaps, my arthritis, you know. Chris (06:27) Please tell people we'll do claps, John, she does snaps. All right, what are we talking about with this dynamic of power in relationships? Okay, so formal power and informal power is primarily what we're talking about. Victoria, I'm wondering, this is not really a school kind of concept or whatnot. Do you think about this in therapy relationships and how people struggle with this or not? I really don't know where your perspective is on this topic. Victoria (06:59) Yeah, I mean, I think that I mean, I don't necessarily like we did. I think we were talking before and I don't necessarily use it for like we didn't learn it in school basically or like it wasn't addressed in like grad school. So I mean, I would probably say then that yeah, we don't. mean, like unless you do your own, you know, side research, you know, it's not necessarily like a super popular thing, I guess that. Chris (07:12) Right? Victoria (07:28) naturally comes to mind when we talk about ⁓ power dynamics and things. Chris (07:38) funny because I guess I'm wondering about newer therapists and how we incorporate this into our work. I think about this a lot. I mean, I feel like there's a lot that goes on, you know, with the way we relate to each other, which actually probably occurs to me in real time. We probably should have done a segment about, you know, how in the social world, social media, you know, on the computer, how this works and how this is affected. I don't know. Maybe if we have time, someone remember that because that'd probably be You that's something I've been thinking about concentrating on a lot. Who did the show with me? It is blends together a little bit. that no, it was just me and you Neil that, uh, that we talked about. He and I did a, a month in review without Kyle. Uh, the new month in review guy, by the way, Kyle King is, is, is still with us. Excited about him kind of bringing some energy to us, but you know, anyway, the, the dynamics in, in computer world and social media. You know we probably need to incorporate informal informal power in that kind of thinking anyway because boy that you know who we who we ascribe informal power to on the Internet probably a big deal. Maybe we'll circle back around to that but John what how do you see this what is informal power and what is formal power how do you see this. John Nelson Pope (08:49) Yeah. ⁓ I see informal power as, and I don't think of it necessarily as being ⁓ negative, but I do, I see it sometimes as somebody's operating in the background and you can be very manipulative with it. ⁓ And that's the downside, or you could be like an influence and. ⁓ Chris (09:09) no. John Nelson Pope (09:26) in a positive sense that would be encouraging. And so people would take your advice. would be like the elder in a tribal society or something. It's not the chief, but it's somebody or a matriarch or someone like that could exercise that. The negative and positively, so in a way being a mentor or something, but or being persuasive ⁓ negatively it would be someone who would withhold ⁓ let's say approval or just subtly not having your back or something of this sort ⁓ when there's a crisis. Am I off base on that or is that. Chris (10:17) No, you're not off base at all. I'm following you. But it's interesting that you went to a positive and a negative element. I haven't really even thought about it in the way of positive and negative, healthy or unhealthy for that matter. I just think of it as a reality that's in operation and oftentimes we don't realize it. Right? Victoria (10:18) Thank Thank you. Mm. John Nelson Pope (10:35) Yeah. I think you're right. Right. And I, you know, one of the things that I was taught when I was in college and then I did my graduate school at schools was and this was before EFT became the thing was we talked about systems and how they interact and families and someone that's in a group where there is ⁓ peer groups. There's always someone that could be influential that might be the understanding teacher or ⁓ might be someone that could be pernicious in their attitudes. And so that's the way we were we kind of were taught to approach it. ⁓ So in other words, you could see perhaps like a church or a synagogue and you could have very positive ⁓ informal power and you might be the Sunday school teacher and doesn't hold a real position in the church itself or the synagogue but the person is ⁓ very much responsible like a parent or does that make sense? Chris (11:54) So it does. Let's let's kneel down into into a simple differentiation because the way I think about this when I'm working with families, when I'm working with friendship in therapy or when I'm just thinking about how people relate at the workplace, homework, life balance, of course, this happens a lot with marriage and it's real simple. So let's let's start with this really having a simple idea or understanding like formal power is just that it's formal and it's measurable. It's something that Like you can hire and fire and you have authority. Police officers have authority to enforce the law. There is a formal nature to that. And we can think of like the boss who does the performance review. They can deliver formally because they've been granted or given that real power. Informal power is all the other ways we influence people. And I think that's where you were focusing on John, right? Victoria (12:27) I think that's great. John Nelson Pope (12:28) You get disciplined. ⁓ That's right. I was thinking somebody of formal power would be ⁓ Mr. Dethers ⁓ in the Blondie comics. And he's always... Chris (13:00) Mr. Dithers in Blondie Comics, for those younger than me, we need to know who the heck is that, Victoria. John Nelson Pope (13:06) Mr. Dithers is the boss of Dagwood, who ⁓ is the office manager of his business. And ⁓ he was always on the verge of firing ⁓ Dagwood because he's a bumbler and he has a lot of formal power. Or I'm going to use another comic comic strip. ⁓ Sergeant Snorkel is has a lot of formal. Chris (13:18) Okay. Victoria (13:19) you John Nelson Pope (13:35) beats the hell out of a Beatle Bailey. so, okay, all right. that just, yeah. So there's those power differentials. Chris (13:38) Okay, now I'm on with Beetle Bailey. I love that cartoon. That helps me. There is. So Victoria, does that make sense to you since this might be a little bit new? Kind of the idea of like how do people have informal power? They take command of a room. Like a politician that's running for an office. Like they just own the space. You know, they're loud. They're influential. Victoria (13:58) Right. Well, and I even think I even think we have like there's like one in every friend group kind of thing where like you have the one person who like Plans the trips and schedules everything and like tells people how much money they owe it like, you know, it's like they kind of Informally. Yeah, like they're almost like I call them like the moms or like the dads of the group because they're like Chris (14:28) Yeah, that's John Nelson Pope (14:29) Yeah. Chris (14:29) perfect example. Victoria (14:30) The ones that people look to like, my gosh, we need help. Like, how do we figure this out? Like, we need some leadership in some type of capacity. ⁓ Chris (14:40) But there's no formal line. Nobody gave them power. They can't close the group or do anything. But we look to them. These are the people that we really rely on to make sense of things. Victoria (14:43) Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah. John Nelson Pope (14:54) Therapist. Question therapist. Is the power that we have as therapists, is it informal or formal? Or is it a little both? Victoria (15:04) I don't know. Chris (15:05) That is a really good question. I think I can answer that because the simplicity of formal power is when we can do something, enforce something, kind of, whether somebody's willing or not, John. And so we have both. We have both. We have mandatory referral. If somebody is neglecting a child or you're a danger to yourself or others, we have formal power backed up by a law. But most of our energy, most of our influence, if we exercise that or have that, which we do, is really informal power. don't have, I mean, somebody comes to us and we have opinions, we have facts, we have science, we share that. But if they choose not to listen to you, John, you don't have any formal power. Victoria (15:49) I mean, yeah, we can't like legally hold people in our office. Like if someone wants to leave, they can. I mean, we're not going to like tackle them, you know. ⁓ Chris (16:01) Right. Yeah. John Nelson Pope (16:04) But you have as much influence as someone who had, I think in that sacred space that we're at in our office. There's a lot of power in Chris (16:12) There's a lot of power. There's a lot of power. Victoria (16:12) Mm-hmm. yeah. Chris (16:16) But the thing is, is what's different, and I'm glad you asked that, John, because that'll help people understand this important concept before we really work to apply it in our real lives. When you come to see a therapist or a priest for that matter, they don't have any power either, but their influence is really high. Like people put us on a pedestal. If we say something, they're really like, oh, wait, what did he say? You know, a priest preaches something, kind of hear that. You know, your rabbi is like, John Nelson Pope (16:45) That's the priest-penitent relationship. If you do confession, basically a person is willingly sharing something. Chris (16:56) Great! That's informal. Victoria (16:58) Well, mean, we have like, I mean, I'm sure y'all have had this point, but like, people will be like, yeah, you know, I was out doing this and I thought, okay, like, what would Victoria do? Or like, what would Victoria say? Or like, you know, what would Chris or John say? And I'm like, okay, so then I have some sort of influence, right? John Nelson Pope (17:14) Victoria, think of that all the time. What does Victoria do? Chris (17:14) Yeah Isn't that humbling though when somebody places that informal power on us? Like, you know, I mean, be careful about that a little bit. that, be the reason why I say be careful is because that gets to the heart of a lot of what we want to apply. A lot of times people are treating somebody as though they do have formal power. That's why I love your question, John. When we, when the person doesn't. Let's say a ⁓ mother-in-law, for instance. Victoria (17:34) Yeah. Chris (17:52) There is no formal power and this happens in power dynamics and in family dynamics a lot. There is no formal power that's there, but you can feel highly influenced by this person's presence. I mean, John, when my mama gives me the stink guy, tells me to stop doing something, a snap in order, right? Even now when she's in the memory care. John Nelson Pope (18:14) Yeah. Chris (18:18) She will do something or say something. She doesn't like something I did. Half the time, it's not even in reality. But it's still, I feel that. I'm like, whoa, my mother just said to stop talking about that. I need to stop. Because I place on her, even in her condition of dementia, a lot of power. And it's OK, because she's my mom. I freely give that. John Nelson Pope (18:32) Exactly. Chris (18:46) The trouble is when we're giving power away, and this is where we get into the application. We give power away. We give our, our agency away. We feel helpless about things. We feel like people are controlling our us. Right? mean, how many times, you know, are, are three questions, right? When has power in your relationships actually felt balanced and when did it feel misused? Right? I see this a lot in marriage. John Nelson Pope (19:17) Yeah. You don't feel there are couples and I will say that in many cases it's the female often feels not heard or understood. And it can happen with the males too obviously, but or children, know. Victoria (19:24) you Chris (19:36) Children, parenting, absolutely. We just had a parenting moment with Victoria with Lucas in the background. And that's a mix though of formal because you have custody, right? And then all of the informal realities. So custody is very formal. Like nobody can tell you, Victoria, what medical decisions you make for your child. That's a formal power society has given you. Victoria (19:43) Yeah, be fine. John Nelson Pope (19:52) Mm-hmm. Victoria (19:52) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris (20:06) But yeah, John, you're right. ⁓ Let me kick it to you, Victoria. mean, how are you seeing this as far as ⁓ adding up to the difference and really the differential? Victoria (20:06) Right. like the difference between formal and informal. Chris (20:22) Yeah, and what you see with your clients and what you see in life and home. Victoria (20:26) ⁓ I think a lot of times, and this might be a far reach, but I think sometimes people view informal power structures as formal. Chris (20:40) Right, you're repeating something that we said, yes. Victoria (20:41) Yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, I think that that's something that, like, in my experience, that I feel like I've had to work with on clients is like getting them to understand that it's not a formal sense of power structure. Chris (20:55) and retaking your agency and developing empowerment. So honestly, you may not have thought of this in the way that we're talking about it directly, Victoria, but can you see and agree that, I mean, in your therapy experiences all day long, this is playing out? And this is why I thought it was a really important conversation for people, you the listener to be hearing, because this plays out in your life. Victoria (20:59) Right. ⁓ Yeah, I can see that. Chris (21:21) All the time whether you realize it or not and a good indicator is is when you really get frustrated driving to louisiana to see your uncle bob and you're like just so in turmoil john that's an example of probably informal influence power dynamics that are really hurting you in a way that make sense. John Nelson Pope (21:28) Mm-hmm. That certainly does. That certainly does. And so maybe that's why Gestalt is therapy is used as a mode of treatment in... Chris (21:54) Now you said that before, I hadn't really thought about that. What do you mean by that? And particularly with people that don't know g- John Nelson Pope (21:57) Well, it's to have you relive that because of the authenticity of that moment. In other words, it's confronting that the emotion because you get locked in and you're all worried about the the bad uncle. Chris (22:11) Okay, well wait a minute, people listening probably don't know Gestalt, so start there and then how does that fit? John Nelson Pope (22:17) Well, that actually I think was Fritz Perls was the one that developed this and he was his I'm not sure if he was German or Austrian, but he developed this, which is sort of like reliving the trauma that gets you stuck. get stuck with something. Let's say you have an issue with a parent or a spouse and Chris (22:22) Mm-hmm. John Nelson Pope (22:45) you're at impasse and you've been traumatized. let's say in that you have to relive the emotions. And so you focus in and you do this. They have the chair technique, for example, which is you, and with that you put, you have a conversation with the person that has hurt you or that you feel constrained by. And you, or you have a parent that may have had formal power over you and misused it, or you misunderstood informal power, and so you start to have to really ⁓ just go through and confront that. And so you talk to that person, ⁓ that empty chair, as though a person is really there. ⁓ Have you used Gestalt? Victoria (23:21) Thank Chris (23:23) Exactly. And the thing that I want to make a point at listening to you is like when you doing that work, it's told as a very here and now modality. We don't need to go much further. And yeah, it's it's it really gets at the way somebody's feeling right now and and. Very right now, present oriented. And when you do that work and you put like your your your dead grandma in a chair that was influential into your life with informal power, John Nelson Pope (23:51) is very dream interpretation too. There's dream work is big. Yeah, it's present. Very present-oriented. Chris (24:14) Man, don't you see all that emotion well up and all that struggle becomes real and it's in the room. You could feel it. There's nothing formal power about it, but this grandma who sits in a chair that you're really in your emotions with at real time can be so strong. John Nelson Pope (24:30) Yeah, I'm going to be careful how I say this, but it's almost like an emotional exorcism. know, you have a that that that force that is holding, it's possessing you and holding you forth. And I'm not talking about Wu stuff or, you know, spirit world is the experience and you make it present. You by doing that, you actually Chris (24:37) ⁓ Yeah. yeah. Yeah, it's not in spirit world. It's the experience though. John Nelson Pope (24:58) Regain you put it in its proper perspective and it diminishes in terms of its holdover Chris (25:05) Yeah, I think people think about this. mean, think of the word power like that is powerful. When you're really struggling in a relationship, you're probably out of balance and really putting something way more on these other people. I want to switch and talk about this and begin to apply these things in the way of like marriages, focusing on that for a little bit through like the balance of power with emotion focused therapy. And we've talked about that before. Real quick. ⁓ John Nelson Pope (25:25) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Chris (25:34) Listen to episode 301, 201, 101, or 11. We've covered that regularly on the 101s for a reason so that you'll know where to go. And it's a basic idea of husband and wife or two partners, gay relationships just the same. Like one person operates from an element of engulfment, the other person operates from an element of abandonment. Generally speaking, in your marriage, you have one or the other. John Nelson Pope (25:47) Mm-hmm. Chris (26:02) You can have two engulfment people that pursue, two abandonment people that both withdraw. said that backwards. Abandonment tends to pursue and engulfments tends to withdraw. So you can have two withdrawers, two pursuers. And this is just the way that you engage in relationships. So engulfment people will shut down, create space, put up walls. Abandonment people will crash in, be very active. Sometimes... John Nelson Pope (26:21) Mm-hmm. Chris (26:30) end up trying to control stuff they can't control, which is horrible. When you're feeling the worst in your marriage, in a fight, in a problem, in something kind of going on, then you really very much probably have an imbalance, John, of the power dynamic. Right? And that is so painful that leads to misery, distress, separation and divorce even. That's how important this informal and formal John Nelson Pope (26:45) I agree. I agree. Yeah. Chris (26:58) power stuff really is. Okay? John Nelson Pope (27:00) Yeah, I think that's something that I think we all have experienced in our relationships, particularly in marriage or our partnerships with our significant others. I think we've all experienced that to some degree or another. It's how we deal with it or not deal with it that makes the difference. And you also have to have two people participate in that. Chris (27:21) Right, big difference, right? John Nelson Pope (27:28) Sometimes one of the partners isn't necessarily amenable or willing to be able to actually have a true partnership. Chris (27:42) Right, now let's add a really deep layer to this. Victoria's back with us. We're talking about marriage and how this power works in marriage. Yeah, you're fine. Okay, cool. Yeah, we got to see Lucas on YouTube, just ⁓ if you want to know Victoria's life. So look, the layering that happens, John, as we were talking about that, if you get into... Victoria (27:50) Yeah, sorry, I can still hear you. I can just... ⁓ Hold on dude, give me a minute, okay? Chris (28:09) really deep understanding of what your family of origin was like and how you experienced marital conversations and conflicts. And you play that out into your current present day and your current relationships. And man, that's where you really get into like, you you're treating me just like my dad treats me. Or how many times do you hear in marriage counseling, like, don't be my parent, you're my freaking spouse. John Nelson Pope (28:30) Mm-hmm. Chris (28:36) Don't make me your project. These types of statements are very real. John Nelson Pope (28:37) Yeah. Yeah. But I can change him. I can fix him or her. So that's manipulation. That's maybe overstating and maybe confusing the roles between formal and informal too. Chris (28:59) very confusing the roles, informal and informal. I there's no formal power about, I can't change, you know, people come to the initial therapy session and are so happy that their spouse is here, it goes both ways, husband and wives, man and woman, doesn't matter, you know, I'm hopeful that the therapist is going to fix my spouse. John Nelson Pope (29:21) Yeah, and there's nothing worse than a therapist who doesn't fix that spouse or that partner. You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Yeah. Chris (29:21) That's what we get, right? Right? Right. Like we're supposed to zoom in and... It's a funny dynamic and it's all based on the informal power. Again, a lot of which they give us. Informal power, they think that we're formally supposed to like change something and make something happen so that we make it right in their house. Like, it just doesn't work that way. You want to make it even more confusing? Which is it? Informal power when you look at finances. in a marriage when one spouse makes a whole lot of money and the other one, let's say, doesn't. How does that play? Victoria (30:07) Especially if the one making the more money is the woman. John Nelson Pope (30:09) ⁓ doesn't play well. Chris (30:12) that's an interesting dynamic as well, right? How does that power play? Is that, first of all, Victoria, is that formal power or informal power? Victoria (30:22) I mean, I would think that would be informal. Chris (30:25) Absolutely. If you have any doubt about the formal and informal power of money dynamics in your relationship, the you get divorced or separated, because what you'll find out is all that money that he's been making or she's been making, you're right Victoria, ⁓ is split. Victoria (30:26) on. Yeah. Unless you got a prenup in place. John Nelson Pope (30:43) 50-50 and I think that's... Chris (30:48) Okay, John Nelson Pope (30:48) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (30:49) that's an interesting point. That creates a formal reality, a prenuptial agreement because I have a million dollars and my new wife has like, you know, $20 to her name. Victoria (30:53) I think you can't talk. John Nelson Pope (31:01) So Chris, you wanna marry me? ⁓ Chris (31:04) ⁓ That was a hypothetical brother. I think we could have a great life together as friends. Let's keep it in friends. So yeah, this is a really big deal in marriage is whether we're talking about work, about status of discipline. Who has? Well, this is a tricky one. Let's see if you can get this, Victoria. Victoria (31:09) Thanks John Nelson Pope (31:09) That's right. Yeah, Bruce Francis, right. Yes. Chris (31:31) is discipline formal or informal power? Victoria (31:35) like discipline of a child. Chris (31:38) Yes, that you have custody of. Victoria (31:41) Yeah, would say formal. Chris (31:43) That is formal, but it becomes informal power between the husband and the wife, right? Victoria (31:50) Yes, because they're they're not one's not above the other Chris (31:54) right and one has way more emotional influence in the decisions that one husband and one wife make and that is the informal power because there's equality there. Victoria (31:55) They're equal. John Nelson Pope (32:04) This a reality in the 21st century, but until 1870 in Great Britain, the woman was considered chattel. so chattel, it's not slavery, it's, but the man could make financial decisions for the woman, yeah, in inheritance. Chris (32:14) What? Really? Well, you know what? I wonder about in Muslim faith traditions or in other cultures. This is an interesting point, John. You're saying the woman does not formally have equal power sometimes. I never thought of that. John Nelson Pope (32:35) And I think cultural differences are significant. And so when you see people marry across cultures and religions, can see there's a conflict. ⁓ Many cases in terms of a female marrying someone from a traditional culture or religion, it's defined in that person's mind. Let's say they come from Pakistan or something like that. It's the male has legal responsibility, has legal rights, whereas a female doesn't. And so in another country, but that person brings that formal understanding. Chris (33:15) And that would be in another country, because that's of course not the way it is in the States. Okay, but that's an informal power when you come to a country where you don't have that law. It's an informal reality, even with culture. John Nelson Pope (33:25) Okay, all right. But that person looks at it formally, so there's a conflict. Chris (33:33) This is the issue. This is the issue. You believe I have formal power because of the culture that I come from and I live in the United States where there is no designation of one over the other in your family dynamic, but you act it out and the person who doesn't have the power will give it away then and operate as though there is something that's there that's not formal power over me and decisions. John Nelson Pope (33:35) Yes, exactly. Right, right. Chris (34:02) Man, that causes such heartache, heartbreak, turmoil, and fighting. John Nelson Pope (34:06) much conflict and you get stuck. Get stuck and so it just sort of adds on and encrusts maybe resentment or the pain and into the relationship. Chris (34:09) Very stuck. Victoria (34:21) We are just out of the way. Chris (34:25) So let's see how powerful this can be when you look at the abandonment person who wants to pursue the engulfment person that wants to withdraw. When your husband or wife, for me, I'm in the abandonment camp and my ex, let's just say, so my ex-wife decides to shut down, give me the cold shoulder. She won't talk to me for, you know, a whole day. That's very pain. I know John, right? very painful, informal power that I am like panicking about. I mean, I'm just tore up about this for the whole day just because she won't talk to me. I think, John, we know you as being the engulfment camp, And Joy is the talker. I mean, when she comes at you and tries to tell you what to do, how painful, how can that work? What space informally can that put you in? John Nelson Pope (35:11) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ God, it's awful. But we seem to work it out. And that's the thing is that I don't think we necessarily can change ⁓ the core of our personalities, but we can certainly learn how to adapt and live with it and have some peace with it and be productive and not hurt each other as much. Chris (35:50) That's where we're trying to get Victoria into a space. You're a younger couple. You also have a young child. Obviously we hear some sounds from Lucas today. You know, and you and your husband are working to create that balance in a new dynamic, a new marriage, a new child. It's growing. Like how do you get balanced with that? Victoria (36:06) you Well, and I also wonder, which I mean, I can't say too, but you might, but like once you have more than one kid, how does that change? Like even between the kids themselves, like you have, between the kids themselves, you would have like more of the informal power dynamic, right? For like the oldest sibling things that they have like, you know, reign over the younger sibling or like that they can. John Nelson Pope (36:21) Yes. Chris (36:22) Ken. Victoria (36:37) dictate like, no, we're going to play this, not that, or like, we're going to do this, not that. Chris (36:43) Suddenly John, going back to my childhood where my brother dominated over me man. ⁓ he was three and a half years older, it was so terrible. John Nelson Pope (36:52) My brother, Star Trek was on when ⁓ I was a kid and my brother and he loved it. He was very scientific and he would do the Vulcan mind meld on me and so try to cause me to submit. And so he did that. So that was, yeah. Chris (37:14) Yeah. We have a family joke where my brother, my parents were fighting at some point or whatever, I was in the closet and my brother looked at me and he threatened me. I mean, I was probably only like four or five years old, but he threatened me. He's like, I am going to run away to the Indian reservation. John, he made me cry my eyes out. I was so terrified by that. I was so upset by that. John Nelson Pope (37:32) Yeah. huh. Chris (37:40) I'm losing my brother, he's John Nelson Pope (37:41) Yeah. Chris (37:41) gonna go to the Indian reservation and he was just totally with informal power, Victoria, because to your point, he was older than me. I placed knowledge on him, I trusted his wisdom, right? And he's telling me this. Victoria (37:53) Yeah. John Nelson Pope (37:54) Mm-hmm. Victoria (37:54) yeah, for sure. ⁓ I wonder, it be, I guess, depending on like the kids themselves, could you have that same power dynamic, but it's like a younger kid versus an older sibling? Like if the older sibling is more like meek or like quiet and shy, and then that younger sibling or whoever is more like has the bigger personality and commands the room. more or whatever. Chris (38:25) all of these very painful realities. And again, you can identify this louder with closer relationships. None louder than marriage, but family that you cohabitate with is like second in line to that. But you know what? How many of us have had, now I know John and you in Victoria don't have any kind of horrible management around, okay? You have great management. Thank you, thank you, thank you for that. John Nelson Pope (38:48) Okay, we have wonderful management. Yeah. We have a Cadillac or a Alexis. Yeah. Chris (38:54) Right, Victoria? That's true, right? Right? Right? Victoria (38:58) Sure. Chris (38:59) Dang, she sounds unconvinced. I'm exercising informal power to dis- voice my displeasure with Victoria right now. John Nelson Pope (39:04) And I'm using informal, I'm having informal power by going along with you and agreeing with you and agreeable. Yeah. Chris (39:11) ⁓ he turns it because because Victoria (39:11) Would it be when, when. Chris (39:14) let me make this point, Victoria, that when everybody has had a horrible boss, a really micro manager or somebody that just digs into your skin, I had a client that was having panic attacks about this last week. Right. Same thing here. Victoria (39:19) Okay. John Nelson Pope (39:25) Teplonol. Victoria (39:32) I was going to ask, like, okay, do y'all remember that study that was done that I can't remember the name of it, where ⁓ they had participants come and sit, like, in a circle or in, like, a group, and they would ask a question, and the person volunteering would go last, and, every person before them would answer incorrectly. And they were trying to study to see if like the participant would also then answer incorrectly because everyone else, you know, they would say like, you know, was Andrew Jackson a president, you know, and then everyone would be like, no, no, no, no, no. And then you would get to, And then you get to like, you know, you and your, then you start to second guess yourself. So like, is that a form of like informal? Chris (39:58) yeah. John Nelson Pope (40:10) I see Emperor has no clothes phenomena, you know. Chris (40:22) 100%. 100%. There's group dynamics and influence there. Go ahead, John. Victoria (40:24) Okay. John Nelson Pope (40:25) So it's almost a group. Yeah. No, that was just, that's all I was gonna say is, yeah. Chris (40:33) Yeah, yeah, there's group dynamics that are very powerful. And you know what? This is boy. I'm aware that we want to get on how do we manage this and I don't want to short that out. So let's go down this road, though, because this is where I've become much more and more very concerned about human beings, the human race interacting with each other online. Victoria, we're doing that sort of a dynamic. over and over and over again with people that we're interacting with online. There is no formal power there, but there's massive, can I explain that even more like massive pain and influence that happens with these large scale macro level group dynamics with the influence that we have. literally have the whole title now. of being an influencer. I mean, what is that? That is not a formal position. That is not formal power. Victoria (41:33) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I have definitely been influenced to buy some things based on what other people have to put online. Chris (41:46) Yeah. Yeah. John Nelson Pope (41:47) But that's informal, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about cults? I'm sorry. What about cults? If you have a cult leader and so you give up volitionally your power and then the cult becomes where the person is withholding food and pardon? Jonesville. Chris (41:49) Very informal, but very powerful, John. Victoria (41:52) yeah, for sure. Chris (41:54) Now, to your point... Go ahead. boy. nominated dominated. John Nelson Pope (42:16) dominating, you know, and Chris (42:19) Yeah, all informal, by the way. You join a cult. There is no formal power. There's no law that's there. But my gosh. John Nelson Pope (42:25) Are you okay? You can leave Jonestown anytime you want to, but they'll kill you. Yeah. So yeah, but it's informal because there's no legal authority. Right. Chris (42:33) Right? Victoria (42:35) Yep. Chris (42:40) Correct. Correct. That's how powerful it can be that you literally will give up your life for group dynamics that are going on in a group like a cult. Man, that's a really excellent point. you know, we have so much going on in social media and the world and we're proliferating across the world, not just the states, with all of these. mean, wars are created by these kind of power dynamics between groups of people individualized. Okay. So yeah, let's get off of that and get into like, how do we balance these power structures out? So we, did an episode recently, episode three, 27, and that would be a really cool one for you to listen to you, the listener, because, you know, we talked about the issue of vulnerability and that, applies itself. John, since we did that episode together, I have been thinking about this all so much. You know, the power and the influence that vulnerability can create for people. I think that vulnerability breaks down the misuse of informal power. How's that for a statement? John Nelson Pope (43:46) could strike me down, but I'll only become stronger. Obi-Wan Kenobi, Chris (43:50) Right? So use Obi-Wan and let me say that sentence again. Vulnerability breaks down the misuse of informal power. How does that play? Victoria (43:53) No. Chris (44:07) You said, use it Obi-Wan Kenobi, go with it. John Nelson Pope (44:09) Yeah, he said basically when Darth Vader was ⁓ fighting Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan was going against Darth Vader who was using his power to try to take down Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan drops it. He drops his sword, puts it down or sword is lightsaber and he says, you know, if Victoria (44:36) Okay. John Nelson Pope (44:38) strike me down, I will only become stronger. And Darth Vader does that and he disappears. But Obi-Wan becomes in that trilogy, he becomes a force of which is running the whole trilogy of movies that basically his power, the force overwhelms and takes. Victoria (44:59) that Chris (45:01) Now before you think that doesn't apply to our real lives, let's think if you're in a relationship with somebody that has narcissistic personality disorder, right? We talked about ⁓ the personality disorder, OCD personality disorder recently. You know, these people are striking you down, particularly narcissists, to a horrible point. And I'm saying, just like Obi-Wan and Darth Vader, John Nelson Pope (45:25) yes. Chris (45:31) your vulnerability actually can be the unique elixir that increases your power in that kind of a dynamic. How? Because when you're vulnerable and you really share the way that these things feel to you or what you're really experiencing, that changes the direction of a conversation or a situation. Great. John Nelson Pope (45:48) It flips, yeah, it flips the power dynamic. And I think that's essential to do that. But our impulse is to go and fight back the way the person is attacking us and respond with equal or greater force. Chris (46:11) Right. And so we talk about this all the time in therapy. We talk about power dynamics when we're talking about assertiveness. I mean, how many times, Victoria, in a therapy situation have you talked about helping somebody to find their voice? Victoria (46:26) I find their voice. Chris (46:28) Yeah. John Nelson Pope (46:30) He felt his, he? ⁓ Victoria (46:31) Look at that now. Chris (46:31) Lucas found his voice, did he say no? No! Very informally power, Lucas. Victoria (46:36) ⁓ I mean, yeah. I mean, I guess I like, you know, I'm constantly working with people who will or who need to like advocate themselves slash like find their voice and. John Nelson Pope (46:40) Yeah. Victoria (46:53) actually use it once you find it. John Nelson Pope (46:56) I had a real life experience when I was in a church ⁓ and I had this thing with an organist and ⁓ I had offended him. I did not do it intentionally. I called him, I asked him ⁓ to play a number ⁓ extemporaneously and he just, he was so angry about my doing that. It was unusual that he did that. And ⁓ instead of and he yelled at me and screamed at me and instead of responding negatively and just as vehemently, I just stepped back. And ⁓ it took a while, but he apologized later on. He thought about how he acted. And I thought that was the power of using informal power ⁓ in a constructive way. Chris (47:43) Wow. in a real life situation. John Nelson Pope (47:53) in a real life situation. Chris (47:55) Look, when you risk vulnerability, expressing softer, deeper level emotions like fear, I am terribly fearful of you right now in the way that you're acting or sadness. When you shut down and you just refuse to talk to me for an entire day, I get deeply saddened and can hardly function. When you express these deeper level or softer emotions rather than you're pissing me off because you won't listen to me, you know, or whatever. Those softer emotions are way louder in what people hear, John, and you just gave a real life example of that. You will rebalance the power. Nice. John Nelson Pope (48:35) He ended up gifting me with something. He gifted me ⁓ with a ⁓ bass relief of Martin Luther, which I thought was great. Chris (48:49) Absolutely. I and you know, I see the smile on your face as you relive that on YouTube, you'll see John's face just beaming because it feels so powerful. Right. When you, when you have an exercised appropriate influence in other people and they respond in kind with kindness or retraction of their attack, that feels so empowering and, just, it's a lovely feeling. John Nelson Pope (48:52) Yeah. huh. Yeah. Chris does, it can take years though sometimes. Yeah, that's the, in other words, have a long, take the long view. Chris (49:22) Yeah. Yeah. Take the long view. What do you mean by that? Because you know what? People really need to understand this isn't always snap your fingers in the moment and be rebalanced. What do you mean? John Nelson Pope (49:32) Maybe. Yeah. Yeah, with this other fella, was not that I was speaking about the musician, the organist. Very talented, kind of. I will say this, who's probably a little narcissistic, but he's talented. I mean, he was a creative. Okay. And of course he was an academic as well as that. that's, I'm being stereotyping, but. ⁓ I'm ⁓ from an academic background, so I know I can be like that a little bit. And it took him a few years to get to that point. And if you take the long view, which means you may not get that. Chris (50:08) We can do that. John Nelson Pope (50:27) that petition for or the request for forgiveness right away but you and you don't expect it it's nice to have when you get it and but when you do ⁓ you have to understand that it may take a while for that to be recognized And again, it kind of puts you in the perspective of not being demanding yourself and having a little narcissistic attitude and say, you owe me this. Does that make sense or? Chris (51:00) It makes a lot of sense and John, you're highlighting the incredible process that we are so honored to be a part of in a long-term marriage therapy experience, for instance, right? Like we get to do the first session. Victoria actually was concerned about me recently because I was doing a family session, right? It was loud, wasn't it? It was loud. John Nelson Pope (51:10) Mm-hmm. Victoria (51:21) yeah. my gosh. That was, ⁓ I needed to leave, but I almost didn't leave until like that session ended because I was like, wanted to make sure everybody, not only you, but like everybody was okay. It was, it was a lot. John Nelson Pope (51:37) Yeah, that's like one of my sessions. Chris (51:40) Right. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. When that's going on, I have to facilitate myself and make sure that I'm in a decent place to be able to function. But the long term process, John, that you're talking about, people get out of the blame game. They stop shaming the other person. They stop, you know, getting in their own way by shutting things down and Victoria (51:51) Bye. John Nelson Pope (51:54) ⁓ Chris (52:06) these bad things that we do in marriage when we try to control stuff we cannot control. The long-term changes that happen, ⁓ man, are life-changing to say the least, right? Victoria (52:15) Thank John Nelson Pope (52:20) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. Chris (52:23) You have agency, have empowerment, you have peace, you have coordination, you have two heads are way better than one. So much goes on. John Nelson Pope (52:33) Yeah. Chris (52:37) Right? So let's focus in a little bit with the time that we have left with couples and then for therapists and then for individuals. What are we really practically trying to do when we're trying to rebalance these, these very painful imbalances that happen? So we've talked about couples a little bit, but you know, we haven't talked. Another aspect of this is, you know, who has formal and informal power and how do we identify that and what do we deal with it? Like with sexual relationship, right? You know, is that wielded as a weapon? How do we manage that? Is that something that we get personal development together? Right? John Nelson Pope (53:23) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (53:27) Talking about how it feels. Talking about those softer emotions rather than how things should be. I oftentimes hear the word should and I like to change it to the word could. Victoria (53:41) on ourselves. Chris (53:43) I was waiting for you on that one, Victoria. John Nelson Pope (53:44) Sure here it is. Victoria (53:47) Yeah, that's my favorite. I always have to repeat it when I tell clients, I'm like, you're shitting on yourself. come on, they're like, what? I believe it might be. And it's basically, yeah, like when we constantly say, oh, I should have done this, I should have done that, I shouldn't have done this, I shouldn't have done that, blah, blah, blah. And then, yeah, we replace it with could or would or can or will. John Nelson Pope (53:55) That sounds like Alice. That's a hard lesson, isn't it? To learn with your clients, for them to learn. Victoria (54:17) That's, yeah, that's what I tell my like my clients, like people that have met with me probably have heard me say the term shooting on yourself. And every time everyone's responsive, excuse me. Chris (54:33) It's a rough word. Victoria (54:33) I'm like should, should, shoulding on yourself. ⁓ John Nelson Pope (54:38) Yeah, maybe Chris (54:39) And another John Nelson Pope (54:39) there's no. Chris (54:40) element is getting curious about things. So when you're in a couple relationship, similarly to any kind of person where you have a relationship, not male, female, but like boss, employee, subservient, you know, in some way kind of thing. So, you know, get curious about what the other person's position is and how this works. So what about for therapists? What are we aware of in sessions when things are escalating, right? Do you track Victoria? You're going to do that a whole lot more now in kind of tracking like, know, what happens in these, you know, in therapy sessions when, you know, people get escalated and they're either pursuing or they're withdrawing, right? Do we track John power moves in relationships? John Nelson Pope (55:25) Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, we do. I think so. Chris (55:29) If you sneeze or something what happened. John Nelson Pope (55:31) Yeah I did, I put the sneeze but I learned how to use it so you didn't want to hear me sneeze. Chris (55:33) I was like, Confused. I think for therapists, want to frame attachment needs and look at like, you know, changing what we think about in so far as attacks and look at it as switching it into like actually being in a need state rather than an attack state. John Nelson Pope (55:55) So it's jujitsu in a way. It's using a person, Yeah, using the weight of the opponent ⁓ and their own power against that. And so the therapist has to be very much able and nimble and not be drawn into the enmeshment between the, let's say the warring couples, the battling couples. Chris (56:00) Yeah, go ahead. Nimble. Warring John Nelson Pope (56:25) Yeah. Chris (56:25) couple, the Warring parents and child. Yeah, like we need to get into a different place where we're trying to model and frame out a different way of interacting. ⁓ I talk about assertiveness all the time. I already blew it, but you know, I'm going to ask you the listener to think about people generally don't get this correct. Don, when I asked them in sessions, I'll say, you know, we don't want to be passive with people, you know, being a doormat. There's not a lot of suggestions I'm ever going to give. John Nelson Pope (56:37) Yeah. ⁓ Chris (56:54) or guidance about how to be passive, but I'm not gonna do that and be aggressive either. I'm after what's in the middle. So if you're not wanting to be passive, you're not wanting to be aggressive, you want that healthy space in the middle, what word is it that describes that? You, the listener to the show, do you know? Can you think of it? Because I literally, you might be saying, listening to the show, like, I don't know what that word is. I literally just said it a second ago. John Nelson Pope (56:56) Yeah. Chris (57:22) People don't know what's in the middle of passive and aggressive. It's assertive. Very, very healthy space to be in when you learn how to be assertive. John Nelson Pope (57:30) And you don't make an ass of you and me. You don't assume. So if you're assertive, assume. I know. I was doing a little jujitsu on that a little bit. Play on words. right. No, no, I was playing with it because a little punny, very punny. So ⁓ assertiveness is, and that is a hard... Chris (57:36) That's a zoom. You got that one wrong, brother. Okay, you played it. I didn't follow. I was like, wait a minute. Where do we go? Victoria (57:49) you Chris (57:54) Very plenty. John Nelson Pope (58:01) lesson to learn. And I'm of a different generation than you are, Chris. I'm a late stage baby boomer. And ⁓ we had World War II parents that ⁓ are Great Depression to parents. ⁓ that was you. ⁓ There was a feeling of aggressiveness. ⁓ It had to be, you know, if you saw Mad Men, ⁓ Mad Men. Chris (58:25) Mm. John Nelson Pope (58:31) on, on, I think it was HBO one, the series. Okay. Well, it showed what Madison Avenue, they called it mad men because they were on Madison Avenue and it was very aggressive or Glen Carey. Glen Ross was a movie, ⁓ with Alec Baldwin in it. ⁓ but people were, ⁓ they're very aggressive. Chris (58:35) I don't know. Victoria (58:38) ⁓ you John Nelson Pope (58:58) they were not assertive the people you couldn't survive in that atmosphere the negative atmosphere so Chris (59:06) Yeah. We just had Lucas doing some banging sounds. If you're wondering, you know, yeah, John, I think, okay. He's he was being aggressive. So. Okay. Let's move. And then we'll do a little bit of the wrap up move to individuals. I have a very important phrase that I think, you know, you listening here will be able to ask yourself a question and help you to understand where is the balance or imbalances. John Nelson Pope (59:13) He's being aggressive. ⁓ Victoria (59:29) Okay. Chris (59:36) that I have with power. practice what we can call, you okay Victoria? It Victoria (59:44) Yes. Look, I have a three year old. Okay. It's a rough, it's a rough time. Chris (59:53) is a lovely time, you will miss these days. So for an individual, I want to suggest that you practice what might call power ups, power check-ins rather. So you're checking in. John Nelson Pope (1:00:04) I like that. Chris (1:00:05) to your power dynamic and here's the question you want to ask. Am I using my influence to connect or to control another person? Right? Am I using my influence because we all have influence? Am I using my influence to connect with the person? Or am I trying to control something? John, you had a major facial expression. John Nelson Pope (1:00:29) I had a client and a couple come in and did counseling. Their relationship did not work out. But he was someone that was a first responder and he was so controlling of his wife that he actually had his arm not just like on top of her, on her shoulder. Victoria (1:00:33) Thank you. No sir. John Nelson Pope (1:00:59) around her chest and he was controlling. That was the whole thing. was physically controlling and so that's why I had such a visceral ⁓ reaction from what you were talking about. Chris (1:01:04) Physically. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, wow. know, that, you know, right, John, that it doesn't take much to get out of that space. mean, you, you can try to exert power over somebody and not realize, you know, I think particularly men, John, would you agree, you know, not realize, you know, the physical influence when you're touching or when you're pushing. John Nelson Pope (1:01:30) I would. We're 30 % larger than women. Yeah, we're 30 % on average larger than females. Chris (1:01:38) Right. And we don't realize how strong that can be. And what an intimidating reality to experience that when you feel physically controlled like that, yeah. John Nelson Pope (1:01:48) huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was brought to my, I'm 6'1". I'm not a particularly tall person, but I'm big. And I have been told sometimes that I intimidate people just by my physical presence. And that's not my intent, but I wasn't aware of it. Chris (1:01:58) Terrifying. Mm-hmm. and it's what people might be experiencing. That's the big power. Victoria (1:02:18) Bye. John Nelson Pope (1:02:21) Yeah, yes, you have to read that too and say, I giving off those vibes? Am I actually saying something? Chris (1:02:29) That's why this is a powerful question to ask yourself with power check-ins when we're talking about trying to balance out the power structures, informal or formal. Am I using the influence that I have to connect with this person that I'm with, or am I controlling something? Because a lot of times people are acting in ways to try to control something and they don't realize it. They don't know that they're doing that. Like sometimes physically, John, like you're saying. Right? Okay. John Nelson Pope (1:02:39) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (1:02:59) So this has been cool, man. We haven't had the full group for a little while. Victoria (1:03:03) ⁓ gosh. John Nelson Pope (1:03:05) I need her snapping. I don't have this snappy. Victoria (1:03:07) ⁓ I'm glad to be with y'all, but this three-year-old is ⁓ rather distracting with that a dog and a cat around here somewhere Chris (1:03:10) Let's do. I think you're coping well. You're using the mute button well, for the most part. We're finally all together though. has he? Appreciate you, Neil. Neil has come in to help. So we've been together for the first time in a little while. I've honestly missed the little shrink wrap up game that we've created. So if you're newer to the show, at the end of the show, we do a shrink wrap up. We all take a ⁓ turn and we kind of, ⁓ you know, Victoria (1:03:24) Yeah, Neil's come in to help, ⁓ John Nelson Pope (1:03:31) Yeah. Victoria (1:03:44) you Chris (1:03:49) go through the show and kind of say what sticks out to us, know, how we were seeing about stuff and Neil gets to kind of act as a little bit of judge because we had designated formal power to you, to judge and determine who has the best shrink wrap up for the week. So this isn't informal. We have all designated you as the decider. You have formal power here. Can you handle that, Neil? Victoria (1:03:52) Yeah, I know. you Six, seven, eight. Neil (1:04:10) Of I can. I like power. Chris (1:04:13) I love power. So John, how about you go first, man? You cool with that? John Nelson Pope (1:04:15) I love Okay. All right. I'm thinking about Darth Vader in Star Wars had formal power, ⁓ because he was, he had rank. He was like a dark Lord. ⁓ and so he did this and he had control over people. And he would cause people to, to, to choke Obi-Wan Kenobi said had informal power and he used the force. If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. And so that's informal power. Darth Vader struck him down, but Darth Vader ultimately lost. He abused his power and Obi-Wan Kenobi persevered. Victoria (1:05:08) How the hell are either one of us supposed to follow that? Chris (1:05:12) can follow it. I got this, Victoria. Listen. Okay, listen. Here's the reality of this show. We spent a little bit of time demonstrating informal power versus formal power so that you can be aware of this. But what I really want to shine through is how this really plays out in your life. This is scary, scary stuff. This is really terrifying reality. Victoria (1:05:15) Okay! ⁓ John Nelson Pope (1:05:17) Yeah, probably. Chris (1:05:40) When you get on the level of a marriage especially or a really painful life relationship and you realize that you feel like you don't have any power, you get into a dark, dark, dark place. This is literally the makings of wars between countries and wars between spouses. ⁓ And hopefully what you hear is that there are ways to really rebalance this power so that you can really return to a place where you have agency and empowerment in your life. And that question I think is really potent and powerful. Are you using the influence that you have to connect or control? John Nelson Pope (1:06:17) The balance of the force, the force resumed its balance. So that's what you're saying, I think. No, I'm not, I'm just saying. Chris (1:06:24) He's trying to steal my thunder, Victoria, on the shrink wrap-up. Go, girl! Victoria (1:06:30) I don't know what to say in order to that. ⁓ Just ⁓ make sure you have your crap straight and go to therapy. That's all I got. And know whether or not your abandonment or engulfment and how EFT can help your relationship and go to therapy. Chris (1:06:53) Neil, I don't think I've ever heard basically in a, what do you wanna call it? I absolve myself of trying to win the shrink wrap up. Victoria (1:07:01) Right. Well, I'm gonna be honest, like I was half listening this time because I was trying to watch the three year old and until we figure out the dynamics to make this work while doing this at home, that's all you get from me today. Chris (1:07:10) I hear you. Fair enough. Neil (1:07:20) I'd have to go with Chris's today. I liked it. I think John was an interesting dynamic when you bring in the pulp culture, but I don't know. think Chris's just fit better. John Nelson Pope (1:07:29) Okay. That's because you're a linear thinker. Neil (1:07:33) It's because I'm also not a Star Wars nerd like you guys are, so maybe that's it. Chris (1:07:37) Hey, Star Wars Victoria (1:07:38) I mean, I'm not a Star Wars nerd, I know enough to appreciate it. Chris (1:07:39) is amazing. I loved it, John. John Nelson Pope (1:07:41) I did too brother. Yeah. Neil (1:07:45) I appreciate it. Chris (1:07:45) I loved it, John. I really, you know, I want to be like Obi-Wan. John Nelson Pope (1:07:47) Thank you. Chris, I would give it to Chris too. I was out of practice. Chris (1:07:52) All right, listen, I hope you enjoyed this show in what we do for entertainment a little bit, but the power issues in relationships in your life are really, really significant aspect of mental health. New therapist, Victoria, not having had this in school. I hope that everyone has picked up a little bit because this is happening most days that you are living for sure. ⁓ I guess I'll just say, stay well. We'll see you next week. Take care. Victoria (1:07:59) Thank you. Yeah. Bye y'all. John Nelson Pope (1:08:19) I'll see you guys. Take care. Bye. Victoria (1:08:21) Bye.