In Episode 332: Elderly Dating, Through a Therapist’s Eyes explores what dating looks like later in life-whether it’s about companionship, romance, or new beginnings. The hosts discuss the emotional and social benefits of connecting again, as well as the challenges of grief, health changes, and online dating. They also highlight growing concerns around romance scams targeting older adults and share practical tips for staying safe, setting healthy boundaries, and embracing relationships with confidence and self-awareness.
Tune in to see Elderly Dating Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What does “dating” mean to you now in this stage of life – companionship, romance, new beginnings?
- How do you feel about online/apps-based dating as an older adult (or as a partner of someone dating later in life)?
- What boundaries or safeguards do you currently use – or wish you had – when pursuing new relationships?
Links referenced during the show:
Comparitech+2Hackman & Phillips Elder Law RI LLC+2
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement+1
https://www.ncoa.org/article/sweetheart-scams-how-to-avoid-being-a-victim/ National Council on Aging
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #332 Transcription
Chris (00:00) Alright well hello everybody and welcome to through a therapist's eyes this is October the 23rd you know I am starting to schedule stuff John for Thanksgiving and Christmas considerations in my schedule man. I don't know about that that's messing with me. John Pope (00:15) Same here, man. It's amazing. Well, my mother reminded me the other day, oh, you're having Thanksgiving dinner with us, aren't you? And that would be the first time in 25 years. So, yeah. Chris (00:31) That's amazing, dude. so glad you get to be with your people down there. This is John Pope down in Bradenton, Florida, by the way. John Pope (00:39) Yes, nice to be here. Chris (00:41) And Neil is stepping in for Victoria. believe ⁓ we may have Victoria pop in when she gets home and settled. But I think that I think she's going to, she's going to just take a break. So we got Mr. Neil Robinson coming out behind the curtains to say hello to us, man. How are you? Neil (00:57) I'm fantastic. How are you guys? Chris (01:00) Good, good, good. This is where we get insights from a panel of therapists in your home or personal time in your car, knowing it's not delivery of therapy services in any way. We have the three questions that we're going to be talking about here in episode 332. This will be a fun show. John Pope (01:01) Yeah, we're doing well, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Chris (01:19) Elderly dating I was waiting for you somebody to like step in there and say the title of the show y'all like John Pope (01:24) No, no, no, well, I'm going to say that I don't. If it were to happen to me at this time, it would be nearly 45 years since I'd... Yeah. So I had dated. I don't know what that's like. Chris (01:38) Yeah? Yeah. I'll tell you, we got some personal experience on this show today with Neil. I think you seem to indicate you're comfortable talking about stuff, so that's cool. And then John just did. And I want to make it very clear about something. Before we even get going, Neil, wipe that smile off your face, man. I'm going to make it very perfectly clear that Chris Gazdick is not involved in elderly dating. Okay. John Pope (02:10) HAHAHAHA ⁓ Chris (02:14) I'd like to think I'm moving into whatever stage of midlife dating. Okay, so let's get that out of the rest. Get that out there. John Pope (02:19) Thank Neil (02:21) It depends who you find. You might be involved in an early dating, depending on how your standards are. Chris (02:26) I knew I was walking into some serious stuff on that Neil. Thanks for that. Listen to three questions. What does dating mean to you now in this stage of life? Companionship, romance, new beginnings? Secondly, how do you feel about online apps based dating as an older adult or as a partner of someone dating later in life? And then thirdly, what boundaries or safeguards? We definitely want to revisit the safeguards things for darn sure. ⁓ Well, John Pope (02:52) to be guard rails. Chris (02:55) guardrails but meaning safeguards I think more so in the way it romance brought John's what I'm thinking about. Yeah and so what boundaries or safeguards do you currently use or wish you had when pursuing new relationships? So we've tried to provide you some information to disseminate information about mental health and substance abuse, blow up stereotypes and myth. That's our drive, that's our deal. Your job if you get a little bit of entertainment for us and you feel so compelled, we ask you really to subscribe. Makes a big difference truly. click the little bell, all those little things. How many stars, John, you gotta say it, cause that's your job. John Pope (03:30) Five stars, five stars and ⁓ maybe make a couple of comments because the more five stars we get the more we're visible. so, video, yeah, like video, yeah, YouTube, yeah. Chris (03:40) like the video, get the notifications going. And honestly, know, when you have ⁓ a show that you're listening to on Apple podcasts or Spotify and whatever, you can click the share button and you share that with somebody that this will apply to. I really feel like you're doing them a favor and you're also helping out the show, but they're more likely to check it out and kind of get turned on to a topic that's really important. And I mean, this one, for instance, you might have a You know, an elderly person that's kind of engaged in this, have wherewithal to be on apps and things. They can listen to this show. So click the little link that, that, shares it. And you can text the actual link that way. Uh, and, and you can really help people. So, uh, contact it through a therapist eyes.com. do the YouTube lives about six 15, six 30, when we get fired up. Interact with us. fun guys. This is the human emotional experience, which we do endeavor to figure out. So yeah. Elderly dating. Sometimes I have a show that, you know, I like to kind of take the pulse of our little group and see. John Pope (04:46) This is not Elder Hostel, right? Chris (04:49) This is not a hostile. Why would you say that? ⁓ elder hostility. No, no hostilities. What I thought you were saying is elder hostile, like a hotel in here. Okay, you were, yeah, that word trips me out, man. Have you ever seen the movie Hostile? John Pope (04:53) not hostility. ⁓ yeah? ⁓ that's a horrible movie yes. Bloody! Yeah. Chris (05:11) ⁓ It's it's terrifying Terrifying I just don't think I can ever stay in a hostel. I'm an I'm a naive American That's just scared of that man. I that movie was terrifying You know so anyway ⁓ I like to take the pulse of our panel a little bit with certain episodes and stuff from time to time I think this is one what are you guys thinking about this show man? It's they're gonna be fun John Pope (05:39) Yeah, I do. I think it's going to be fun. think, you know, because it's a season of life that I'm in right now. And ⁓ it's and I'm it caused and just started my brain. I don't know what I would do without my wife. ⁓ I would probably I would be heartbroken. I would be grieving. I would be vulnerable and And you can be certain that the people that ⁓ on social media would send stuff to you and they would find out that information. if you're in a vulnerable state, ⁓ overwhelming, right? Chris (06:22) overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. It really is. mean, I, you know, after 28 years of marriage, John, can identify that. I don't know how much difference, you know, the post marriage thing is after a time period like that versus, you know, 48, you know, or 40 or, you know, I mean, that's John Pope (06:42) Yeah, yeah. I'm 43, right? Year's marriage. yeah. Yes, it's a long time. Yeah, definitely. Chris (06:49) Yeah. It's a long time. talk to your system and then when you spend, you know, three, four, five years single and you kind of get back into like, God, what do I got to do? You know, at this stage of life as an older person, you know, getting in, playing the field, like what, what it's such a. John Pope (07:09) I get a toupee and that's about it. Chris (07:11) Ha! Wait, you gotta get Botox somewhere John? John Pope (07:15) in a hair transplant? Botox? somewhere. Yeah. Chris (07:21) Hehehehehe Neil (07:23) But I think the important part is that's it. Chris (07:26) I almost spit my soda out on that one, John. John Pope (07:30) Well that's where my mind went, so there. Chris (07:34) That's awesome. Sorry Neil, my soda spitting cut you off there. Neil (07:40) Hey, I'm trying to be serious and you guys are messing around. The roles have changed. I'm always the one messing around. But no, I think the interesting part too about the dynamics is like even if say John had been married for 20 some odd years, the fact that he's still a lot older than you in a different stage of his life, that changes the whole dynamic. I've been married for, it'll be 22 years this year, but even still now, I know you were married for 28, Chris, you said that. I'm still a little bit younger still. there's a difference in... Chris (07:47) Indeed. Neil (08:10) the stage of my life I am when that relationship ends and I have to start new. John looking at it at his relationship then that changes because he's further along than you are. I'm trying to like not say like, John, I don't know, actually John, your parents are still around. might, yeah, exactly. So it's just the changes, right? Chris, you have this and you have a. John Pope (08:26) I'm ready to meet Jesus, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Neil (08:33) you expect a lot longer to live, right? Just because of the age difference, right? So it changes your purpose about your dating, right? What is the goal of it? What are you trying to do? There's the recovery aspect of losing that previous relationship, if that's where it came from, to now, I'm not just wallowing for five years because I'm 85 years old and I'll probably not make it longer. 50 something, I still got 20 to 30 years. I need to do something with my life with a purpose, right? There's something, it's a difference in the dynamics of not just the long-term relationship you got out of, but how much more time do you think you really have, right? It changes the whole game. Chris (09:10) It's a big difference. You know, if you expect to live 10 more years or five to 10 more years, it's kind of like, you know, if I'm 85 years old, I am not going into the dating field. I am just chilling and listening with my family. If I've got 40 years as I kind of guess I'm in 30 to 40 years, like I absolutely don't want to live life alone in that regard. mean, I could. I have a little bit now, so, you know, it's, it's not, but I mean, if you've got 50 years to go or even 60 as a 20, 30 year old. That is a very different circle. John Pope (09:42) Well, I'm going to put a little caveat on this because I'm thinking that we've had where the woman had predeceased the husband and they'd been married, the wife predeceased the husband. And then you hear these stories of the man just suddenly getting married, you know, like within a year or half a year even to somebody. and I've seen that. And there's been, I haven't seen anything recent in terms of studies about it, but that men don't do as well without a... Chris (10:24) You've said that before and I've been kinda thinking about that in the back of my head a little bit, John, honestly. I, ⁓ John Pope (10:31) Boy, you remembered that. That was a few years ago. ⁓ Chris (10:35) I, well, was it that long ago? Yeah. I, I don't think it was that long ago, but I, but whatever it made me really sort of ponder all of that as I'm living my life, you know, in the back of my head, like that's not like, I don't, I don't know. I don't want to make a value judgment on that, but I, I remember my brother was like that actually. Yeah. He, he, after his divorce, man, he was, he was getting together with his now wife, but, ⁓ you know, six months after it was like, John Pope (10:39) I don't know. Yeah. Chris (11:03) Whoa, I don't even remember it was that quick, but I guess it was. So I think you have to have some caution with all of that. It's my view. John Pope (11:11) Yeah, you can't generalize it. Chris (11:15) Right, that's that's fair. I had to be careful with that John Pope (11:18) Well, no, I was on my part. Mine was anecdotal, the church as I see it. ⁓ Chris (11:24) Right. It's what you've seen in men. Yeah. It'd be interesting to get some data on that. Some, some, some, some serious data to kind of know. It's a curious question, but let's, let's back up a little bit. What are we talking about when we talk about elderly? Okay. I mean, all jokes aside, I'm wondering what, you know, what level of life we're talking about here. And I think it's important to clarify a little bit. we're, definitely talking about somebody that's 80 years old. Okay. we're definitely not talking about somebody that's my age 52, right? Like, no, that's not elderly dating. I mean, is 60 elderly dating is the retirement age 65. Like what about in your seventies? Do you have to be in your seventies to be elderly? Are you still midlife at 60? I think these are kind of important questions to frame up the factors that we're going to talk. John Pope (12:19) Well, at my age, 72, I'm feeling still pretty young despite some challenges. But yeah, yeah. And so I think it's attitude. think it's, you know, you don't put yourself into a rut or into a box, basically. just... Chris (12:27) That gives me so much hope, John. Thank you. That's fair, but I think we have to have some parameters on it. mean, to understand the stage, if some people might feel really old at 50, I know we make jokes, but somebody can really feel old. mean, they're clicking 60 and they're like, whoa, and I don't know that we need to, you know. John Pope (13:02) Well, yeah, I see them. I see people that I feel look older than I am and they're 15 or 20 years ⁓ younger than I am. And I'm going chronologically younger, but they're carrying around an oxygen, they're pulling an oxygen tank and they got a cigarette hanging. ⁓ Chris (13:22) Yeah. That's a thing. Yeah. mean, encounter to that. I'm proud to say I went on a little big old hiking deal up at chimney rock. I think I was talking about it last week. I hope none of my new friends are talking about listening to this now and whatever, but guys, I was smoking them. Dude I was rolling up the hill and they like killing it and I'm like whoa wait a minute what's going on here with these guys and girls Yeah It made me feel good It did so so The mountain Bay I've said those hills will will sing to my soul and they'll you know, they will ⁓ they'll make you right they they will make you right, you know John Pope (13:48) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can see you doing it, You're a West Virginia guy. Mountain Bread, Born in Bread. Thank you. Chris (14:12) All right. Well, so it should change priorities. We touched on that. mean, I think that's maybe kind of obvious, but you know, with the greater life experience and, and, all possibly might be geared around like the freedoms that you have instead of, you know, being in a relationship that might be a unique draw to you. But there's also John, as you said, you know, you're feeling differently, you know, what kind of vulnerabilities do you have? You know, do you have your physical aches and pains? I mean, I've seen life pattern studies in probably based most on surveys and stuff, but you know, people have said their marriage satisfaction, we know goes down greatest when you have kids. And then when you're empty nesting, it's like a major transition times. But I suspect that retirement is, is another time where your marriage satisfaction kind of goes pretty, you know, it takes a hit. and you become just focused on self, little pains and aches and that type of thing. So this is a very changed picture and thus changed priority. Right? John Pope (15:18) I'm wondering too, is this that because we're living longer? I'm looking if my family history is correct, I'm looking at towards making it to a hundred. And so I'm foreshadowed, foreshortened, I guess. I'm a lot closer to Jesus than you guys are. But at the same time, I have some time for a... And so men are living longer ⁓ if they take care of themselves. Chris (15:53) Absolutely. Yeah, I quote my ex all the time now, you know, she said it I'll say it again you find out at 50 how well you took care of yourself at 30 I've added you find out at 70 how well you take care of yourself at 70 I like to say I screwed the first one up trying to get the second one, right? But I think you also find out at 90 how well you took care of yourself at 70. I think that's a true statement John Pope (16:10) Yeah. I'd agree. I'd agree. Chris (16:19) Yeah. So there is a lot of mentality involved in this, but one thing I think we haven't mentioned yet. I don't know. I'm not there in life, but I got to believe one of the highest priorities when you talk about what is this thing in elderly dating, I just got to believe that companionship is one of the biggest factors, the biggest longing. Neil (16:41) Well, I think one thing you think about when you get to those ages, a lot of times you have your retirements in place or you're pretty well set. You're just kind of coasting along. A lot of your stuff's paid for. mean, when, when your priority isn't about financial security, it's not about procreation. It's not about those types of things. Are they good parent? Are they going to be a good parent or those like now as you stated, you can be kind of selfish. Who is this person that I want to hang out with that companionship thing? Right. It changed the whole dynamic. You don't have to look at it from anything else besides, I click with this person? Do I want to spend time with them? No pressure, no ulterior motives. It's just about, and you do have to watch yourself, right? If you're willing to do, and someone comes in and trying to, know, smooth you, that's a whole nother thing. But for the most part, if you're at that age, you put your time in, everything's there, you're just trying to enjoy life. Right? You want the person that you're with to experience things with you. It just changes the whole perspective of it. Right? When you're younger, once again, it's lust, it's the attraction, it's then you think about financial security, building things out, and then the long-term stuff. But then when you get to that age and you now have grandkids and great grandkids and you're not really watching them, you want to just hang out, you want to travel, who's your companion? Right? You hit on that. It's about companionship. Your focus changes dramatically. Right? Chris (17:56) travel. You know, I hadn't thought about that with this issue, Neil, but you're really, always, mostly perfectly on point. you know, I don't know, John, that we would have many therapeutic issues with blended families in elderly dating. Like, that pretty much just takes that off the table, I would think, basically. Is that fair? Yeah. John Pope (18:18) And you're not having to raise them. Now you do have to deal with family members. Let's say the children sometimes are worried about inheritance and things of this sort. And so that has to be sorted out. ⁓ That's one of the things when I would marry older couples, we would talk about financial considerations to make sure that no one feels like they're, but that's easily taken care of if you take care of it. Chris (18:33) Well, that's true. wow. Is it though? John Pope (18:48) Yeah. Neil (18:48) You can do it. You can John Pope (18:49) Well. Neil (18:50) do a contract agreement, a trust or something and you put that just there's your there's your stuff in writing. There you go. And then you live your you do with the rest of the stuff, right? You can make it. John Pope (18:59) Just a woman that I know did a wedding. ⁓ Her husband just died and they were deeply in love. It was a second marriage for both of them. And ⁓ she actually was widowed twice, which is very, very tough and rough on her. But they were really up front about money and ⁓ she was actually better with the money than he was. And he had more assets, but she sent off money to her family and children. But they got to nieces and nephews. And ⁓ they didn't have to worry about money. They didn't have to worry about arguing and who's being treated better, anything like that. Chris (19:56) Well, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I just reacted to you, John, because I know, you know, we know all money is a very emotional, topic for sure. And I think struggles people, but you know, it occurred to me just listening to you there, you know, we're talking about elderly dating as. You know, a marriage proposal. ⁓ I can tell you a lot of my clients that I've worked with over the years, ain't no marriage proposal in the mix. So, you know, is this a time where you switch over and you have developed. John Pope (20:22) Yeah. Chris (20:26) new identities, new worldviews, and maybe a new beginning that, you know, does it have to be marriage? ⁓ John Pope (20:33) What if you've been in a ⁓ suffocating marriage for 40 or 50 years and your spouse was a real ⁓ A-hat? And, huh, yeah, cool, real tool, male or female, and you just want to have a real relationship and not have to worry about obligations. Chris (20:40) Hmm. Tool. Tool. John Pope (21:00) Part of it is you stayed in the marriage because of the children and the grandchildren. this is now an opportunity to explore and to try on a new hat and new lifestyle. Chris (21:16) Yeah. And another, another angle of trying on a new hat and the identity too is, is, ⁓ you know, I think that there's a reason why human beings have a construct in, I would venture to say all of society, you know, throughout the history of humankind is because of the, the, love, the attraction, the, you know, the connection, the bond. I think that we're wired that way. and staying active, being engaged is absolutely good for your health as well as can we say our mental health? I think we can. John Pope (21:55) Yeah, yeah, our social health, our mental health, our spirituality, all of that. ⁓ Yeah, so. Chris (22:05) Right. Yeah. I think another thing to switch us into, you know, exploring this idea of or elderly dating. ⁓ I don't, I don't think there's like likely a way to do this in a healthy way. If you're not. How do I want to say, I guess maybe proficient in grief work, you know? I don't think you're going to have elderly dating and have a lot of leftover grief and loss from either your previous relationship or deaths that occur if you're a widow or a widower or life changes, know, grieving into retirement. If you haven't done that work, this probably isn't going to go very well. I think I'm going to make that bold statement. John Pope (22:59) I agree with you. I think you're absolutely right. And you think about some cultures, traditional cultures have very definite ways of, for example, in Jewish families, if they're observant, they'll cover the mirrors. ⁓ some people, well, back in the 19th century, early 20s, they wore black and said, I'm in a sign of mourning. And then a year later, or a year and half later, they take off the black. and they start. And so that was an external ⁓ of an internal change, an external sign of an internal change. Do we do that in our culture? Chris (23:38) Nope. We do not. Not at all. Yeah. As a matter of fact, I mean, the sad reality, and that's why I wanted to park out here just a little bit. John is, mean, I think, you know, as well as I do in our therapy work, oftentimes I find myself like, pointing us in the direction of that issue on purpose. And oftentimes people are shocked at like, what do mean I'm grieving retirement? You're God. John Pope (23:39) Western culture anymore. I don't think so. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chris (24:08) Couldn't stand working. was, I love being retired. Why? Well, you, you, you have a major loss there as much as you're happy with having chosen to stop working. That's a loss. And so I'll point us in that direction to kind of make sure like, look, we need to, we need to tend to these emotional matters. And if you don't, I'll say it again. I think you'll have a hard time having a healthy relationship in, elderly dating. John Pope (24:30) ⁓ huh. Right. Neil (24:31) Well, I think, you know, I'm kind of seeing that with my mother-in-law right now that she, you know, I know her histories and I know what she's going through. And I know right now we're dealing with some other stuff with like her sister right now that, ⁓ you know, my wife's aunt. Like I know that a lot of the stuff I think that's hitting her right now is because of undelt issues she had from her, you know, the marriage she had that was 20 years ago. Right? And it's going to be really hard to get into the scene of dating if you still have a bunch of stuff that you're hanging on to. Right? That's, that's the biggest issue with like young versus old. Young, you're kind of setting some stuff up, figuring out who you are. When you're old, you know who you are, but then you got a lot of stuff you've gone through. If you don't address it, it's going to be hard to get into a new relationship because of those pieces. Right? Chris (25:21) Yeah, I think we can demystify the age factor there too. I guess as you were talking, Neil, was thinking, you know, I made the point and I stand by it, but I mean, also, I don't know. Can we say elderly folks have more that they have to grieve? I guess we can because the layering that we've talked about in shows, which by the way, if this appeals to you, we really want to refer you to some shows episode three 24. just talked about this. not too long ago, the importance of grief work. And then we talked about in episode 322, grief sucks. know, it's, it's just, man, this stuff is, it's hard ⁓ to do. And you know, when you're divorcing at 30 years old, you still have to do that in order to have a successful relationship moving forward. John Pope (26:06) Isn't it interesting that the DSM-5-PR, I mean, they have not in the diagnostics statistical manual, whatever it's called, had not really dealt with grief. ⁓ And yeah, it is very frustrating. It's a transition in our lives that is can... Chris (26:24) ⁓ Very frustrating. John Pope (26:34) can be complex, complicated, can be ⁓ distorted. the idea is that you are able to work through your grief so that you're able to ⁓ be able to come through with a ⁓ term in PTSD treatment as post-traumatic growth. know, something's lost, but something's gained. and something's gained is wisdom, hopefully, and a better appreciation for life and cherishing of it. ⁓ Chris (27:13) Yeah, it's super frustrating. just, I just checked in and make sure I wasn't wrong. I mean, I feel like, you know, here's, here's on my little desk book reference of what John was just talking about. You know, we all have them close because we need to look at the numbers and look through diagnostics. You know, I feel like we talked about somewhere, John, maybe it was a conference or just maybe a conversation like this, honest with you about being able to diagnose grief. You know, we can't do that. That we don't have a diagnosis out there. And, and I mean, even complicated bereavement. I feel like that. is what was talked about complicated bereavement. But I don't, I don't think we have a code for that. I don't think we can diagnose that. Now, I I'll go on the record with you. think it's stupid. John Pope (27:52) I do too. I agree with you. Something is fundamentally life-changing, life-altering. ⁓ And if you're having trouble going through that process of grief, it's going to affect you psychologically, spiritually, and emotionally, and physically. And all those things are going to happen. Chris (28:17) And we need to treat it. John Pope (28:18) it upends and it upends every relationship that you have. So, yeah. Chris (28:24) Sometimes dramatically, you know, absolutely. ⁓ You know, another factor in exploring this elderly dating, I would put us towards ⁓ these dating apps. These dating apps, man. You know, I didn't realize this until I was... John Pope (28:40) Yeah. Neil (28:42) Which one do you like the best, Chris? Chris (28:47) Not even going to answer that brother. Cause you know the answer to that. That is nothing more than a provocative question. I am not going to dignify the response. How about none? All right. The thing is, is, um, I don't know. Yeah. Do the whole swiping thing. Swipe down means something. I don't know, brother, but I mean, I was surprised in doing this show prep for this. John Pope (28:52) Now you've piqued my interest. You've piqued my interest. What is it? You've got to swipe one way or the other. Chris (29:16) The Pew research evidently is showing one in six over the age of 50 are Jumping in to the online dating world. I just that kind of surprised me a little bit. That's a lot I mean, it's not exorbitant amount. I guess that means five out of six aren't It says over 50 yeah, which John Pope (29:33) Now, we talking over 50? They said over 50. So I'm thinking people 50, they actually had the really the first introduction. They were like early 90s, mid 90s. Yeah. Chris (29:47) yeah, I graduated high school in 91, I'm 52, yeah. Neil (29:52) That is kind of surprising that it's that high for that age. Now, I'd be intrigued to see how much that shifts when they get to like 60, right? What that next decade, right? Does that shift to one in 10 or does it shift to one in it? Like what happens once they get to 10 years old, as John pointed out? 50 has that age that still has that technology stuff, right? They're still aware of it. Chris (30:02) Right, that's what I was immediately thinking. John Pope (30:17) My mother is 94 and mom, don't get mad at me, but she's never turned on or turned off a computer. She's seriously. Chris (30:29) Are you serious? Neil (30:31) My wife's grandmother never used a debit card and she just passed like two or three years ago. Yeah. John Pope (30:34) huh. My mother doesn't use a debit card and she doesn't trust them. So, Neil (30:42) It's yeah, it's kind of crazy. And so I think one, am surprised it's one in six, but then I also feel like as you get every year you get over 50, I feel like that number is going to like get less and less just because of the way that it is. Now the sad part is, is that someone that's age 50, it seems really strange to me that they don't want that. They wouldn't want to like do some sort of a physical connection or something to meet someone. But I also know in society it's it's more convenient just to try to line something up online and then you coordinate to get together, right? So I see the reason. John Pope (31:20) I can't imagine that. I but I engage people every day, several times a day on virtually, but I see them, I talk to them, I get to know them. ⁓ But it's an intentional listening and maybe that's a lot of work. I don't know. What do think guys? Neil (31:28) Mm-hmm. Chris (31:44) Go ahead if you have response, Neil, because I was checking out some numbers, I'm not sure. Neil (31:47) But I think the biggest thing from you, John, is like people are coming to you with what you're doing in your world. imagine having to just go somewhere and try to strike up a conversation without the pre the pre-conceived thing of they come to talk to you, right? Just go like just go to like say like Chris, for example, if he's going to Hickory Tavern, that's different to go talk to someone there versus someone come to his office or something like that. Or with the idea now instead of just casual conversation because you have no stake in the game, John. That's different than Chris who maybe has a lot of stake because, hey, that person's kind of... John Pope (32:20) Yeah. I think we gotta get Chris into speed dating, you know? Chris (32:29) This is about elderly dating. This isn't about me. Come on. John Pope (32:31) HAHAHAHA Neil (32:32) You've got to practice for your elderly dating. You're getting closer, Chris. Chris (32:35) I knew I was stepping into it with this episode y'all. This is not... Golly. I'm not gonna let them see me squirm anybody. I was checking out the numbers honestly. Looking at the article, the Pew Research deal, they're citing really... Because you would think the numbers would go down when people get older, but I don't know. All in all, 3 in 10 Americans have used online dating. I would have thought that to be a little higher than 3 in 10. John Pope (32:36) Yeah. I can't get out of the car. I can't get out of the seat. I can't get out of the chair. Chris (33:04) And then it says with the over 50, you know, one in six, I don't, it doesn't, doesn't break it down beyond that and older, but you know what, you know, I think there might be, well, there's, there's COVID factors, but, but I think there's also like my clients that are older are falling way deep into Facebook, especially, you know, like Facebook has a dating thing on. John Pope (33:13) That's even with COVID, right? mean, we live in the area. Yeah. Chris (33:32) And I just find that there's a lot of that going on. mean, with, with old people are falling into the Facebook world. So I can believe those numbers being that high. Neil (33:43) Yeah, well, I that's the other part too. think you, cause I was just looking at a survey here that it says 14 % of adults in their sixties, 12 % of those in their seventies, which is crazy. I'm just trying to look at these numbers really fast cause I found a quick little survey, but I think you're a hundred percent correct, right? And they brought this up in the, in the thing. People who are 50 might use Tinder. where people who are 60 might use match or in your case, they use Facebook, right? Because they connected to it talk to their kids and their grandkids. And now you have all these elderly people who are on Facebook. John Pope (34:16) So it's convention, but in other words, it's a tool. In other words, it's familiar. Neil (34:24) Right. It's not going to download in a new app, plenty of fish or, you know, our time or something like that. And it's going, starting with new Facebook is a thing where you're used to being on that thing. And you're just kind of talking to people, you know, when you, now you get these connections, it's like going to your local library or bar. It's like, you just know when you start connecting. So I honestly, if there wasn't Facebook with those order of people, they probably would be on more dating apps. So actually John Pope (34:29) Yeah, we did. Neil (34:51) I think the numbers are skewed just because of something like Facebook or LinkedIn or whatever. John Pope (34:52) Well, I'm not going to this. Chris (34:57) Mm-hmm. What's that, John? John Pope (34:59) No, I was just thinking there was a man whose wife had a severe stroke. She had been ⁓ on birth control pills and they were a lot more powerful back in the day and in the 60s. Yes, they were. And you could cause blood clots and strokes. so she was very, very disabled as a result of that. he looked like he could be even in his Chris (35:16) pills. John Pope (35:29) late 70s. He looks like he could be a GQ model. And he said, I'm having so much problems. His wife was still alive at the time, but she was starting to fail. Of the women that are trying to date me and I saw it, you know, this was that was in Sarasota. And that was 20 some years ago. And He said, I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in that. And he felt like he was getting pressured. Chris (36:02) You know, that's an interesting element too, to go back before we go forward to our next segment, you know, how much, how much pressure do you, might you feel, you know, plays a big role in that, John. I'm, I'm, I'm puzzled curious about, know, how does culture, whether it be, you know, we, we were in Charlotte, North Carolina, you know, area, you know, the Southern Bible Belt culture versus the New York or the West cultures out in California or. other cultures around the world. wonder what kind of pressure people might feel. You got what? John Pope (36:36) I got Florida man culture. Florida man culture. Chris (36:41) I mean, it's a thing. It's different down there, brother. You know that it is very different. So, you know, is there a pressure cooker here? Yeah. You know, I mean, I think, ⁓ you know, my stepdad, for instance, he doesn't feel any pressure, you know, of course, mom's, you know, in memory cared and he, but he's alone and he's, he needs companionship. That's, that's a primary issue back to that. But yeah, pressure, you know, culture. didn't, I don't know. I don't know where that is. Most possibly. John Pope (36:47) I'm gonna walk my alligator. Chris (37:11) You know, do people feel that? people not type in YouTube livers? Like tell us if you're elderly, like I'm really curious about that. Do you feel pressure? John Pope (37:20) Yeah, well, it's seasoned or mature. If you're mature or seasoned. wow. Chris (37:23) Mm-hmm. Well, you know, we'd like to think that way, John, too. You know, well, I have so much more experience. I am seasoned. I'm not immature. I'm not taking that away. But I think there's also some myths there, man. I feel like insecurities are insecurities. And one of the things I've definitely found. You know, through anecdotal experience of 25, 30 years doing this with people. John Pope (37:43) Yeah. No argument. Chris (37:52) in intimate close therapy relationships, man. I don't know when somebody gets their heart broken, they're 15 years old. I don't know that's any different at 40 or 70. You get your heart broke, your heart's broke and you have insecurities and fears. You you have fears at all ages. John Pope (38:05) The question is do you have the resilience? Chris (38:10) You may, but you may not. There's some pretty resilient 15 year old daters out there, you know? And there's a whole lot of people that have so much seasoned life experience and man, they just, they crumble. They struggle. Hard. John Pope (38:15) Okay. Right. They're fragile. Chris (38:29) at seasoned ages. John Pope (38:31) Well, you know, some things, they may have some reoccurring, I'm looking in terms of a spiral, and let's say they have some traumatic event that happens to them at a very young age, or they feel abandoned or whatever. And then the person that's been your life mate for 40 or 50 years dies, and you know they haven't abandoned you. But that doesn't tell the body that it doesn't feel like that. Chris (39:00) So it does not. The body locks in those feelings. John Pope (39:01) Yeah. And so you might be replaying that. You might go right back into that old, that feeling like being a motherless child or ⁓ abandoned. Chris (39:13) In fact, John, and we can throw the engulfment side in there as well. If you haven't done your homework, if you haven't worked through the things, I would actually go a step further than that, John, and say you're likely to experience that struggle. You know? I mean, it goes back to what we saying with grief work, you know? So let's do a quick little segment. I don't spend a lot of time here, in fact, hardly any, because, you know, we did a whole show, you you talk about dating apps, you know what we got to talk about next, Neil. John Pope (39:24) Yeah, I agree. I agree. Chris (39:41) Yeah, we got to touch base on the fact that fraud is a real, real, real nasty. Also, it's a big issue, isn't it? John Pope (39:48) ⁓ There's no place lower in hell than that for a person that does that. Chris (39:56) You say that with such a sweet voice, John. It's terrible. It does something, something kind of bothers me, man. When I have clients that are in dealing with the fraud and, and, you know, a lot of the fraud wraps around like you, think they're talking to somebody famous. And I mean, I've had this a lot lately. I really have. John Pope (39:58) there. Yeah. Same here. Chris (40:17) So we did a show, a whole show with that, Neil, and then I let you roll ⁓ episode 311, mental health and fraud with Kyle King. That's why I don't want to spend a lot of time on it because we really hit that deep and hard with episode 311 and how people get killed with a billion or three billion with a B dollar industry on this thing, man. It's crazy. Neil (40:37) Yeah, and I think, mean, as I've seen recently with some of the stuff, seeing some of the behaviors, some of the stuff that's interesting is you get a lot of these older people, and it's funny. So I'm dealing with this one more personal side where I'm dealing with an elderly person with this situation. I've seen what's going on with those pieces. Then I also noticed that there is this golfer, her name is Paige Spearneck. I don't know if you've heard of her or anything, but she's supposedly a really good golfer, but she's also, she uses... John Pope (41:03) Yes. That's his very attractive. Neil (41:07) She flaunts her assets when she does her golfing stuff, right? Well, here's the interesting thing. She posted the other day. John Pope (41:10) Yeah Chris (41:12) Okay. John Pope (41:14) The emphasis on the ass. I'm sorry. Chris (41:17) ⁓ John, there you go buddy, I'm proud of you on that one. Neil (41:20) Hey, yeah, yeah, but she posted on ex formerly Twitter that she doesn't have a telegram account and she did that because they're legitimately our people who are pretending to be her and in the comments I could not tell hundred percent some some people I could tell were being funny, but some people were like What do you mean? I I thought we were gonna meet blah blah blah and like I could I don't know from the comments like legitimately people were thinking they were talking to because there's things like telegram and whatsapp where people are Chris (41:32) ⁓ right. Neil (41:49) using things like X or Facebook to build pages. with AI, AI is creating videos and pictures of these celebrities. They're creating these pages. There's elderly people who don't know what's going on. Well, they like or comment on these posts. Well, then someone comes in saying, hey, I'm so and so, private message me or hit me on this WhatsApp app. And then it takes it off of Facebook. And then you have this infatuation because these people think... They're talking to that celebrity or they're talking. John Pope (42:20) And they could sound like them too, right? I mean, with the AI. Neil (42:22) They can do all sorts of stuff with a lot of the deep fakes and it's in the Sora now and all these other things, right? But it's that process of these people are getting involved hooked into one situation and then they have that little bit of hope, right? That little glimpse of, famous person's talking to me. You know? It is. Chris (42:25) gonna get worse. exciting the limbic system lights up and I tell you I'm listening to you Neil and the thing that we need to kind of comment about is Understand we're making an assumption here so far for whatever it's been, you know 30 40 minutes We've made an assumption. It isn't true We've made an assumption and talked about it as though everyone is single in elderly dating and that's not the case at all That is that is not the case there there there are many situations. I've come across where You people are are still married in a long-term relationship, but they got this new thing going on. It's exciting. It's fun. And, know, I guess you could put it in the category of affairs, but it just, has a very different vibe and feel to it to where people start chatting and talking and connecting sometimes fraudulently. But yeah, go ahead. John Pope (43:29) second emotional affair. Is it is it an, I was going to ask you, is that an emotional affair in that sense? Chris (43:37) I mean, you could, yeah, I mean, you definitely use that language. I would have no problem with that. I'm sure you wouldn't either. You know, I mean, there's certainly an emotional engagement there, you know, while you're married. So it opens up that Pandora's box too, with the fraud. John Pope (43:43) Yeah. Neil (43:51) Well, I mean, the thing too is if you're in a marriage and you're not addressing that communication issues, right? You become emotionally detached, right? Same thing. That's new, that's exciting, that's all of these things. Like you said, it kicks off those parts of your brain. so I feel like, and that's almost to me, and that's where, that's the hardest part about watching people get scammed online. It's not the fact that they're gonna get to the point where they're gonna lose money. It's the emotional turmoil of watching them, someone you care about. get excited about someone because they're finally feel like they're getting the attention they want. Knowing that this person is, and then how do you handle that as someone outside of that? How do you help them get past that? Because you got to rip the band. I'd be like, look, this is what's really going on. And, and, yet you don't want to hurt your loved one because they're finally happy, right? And that, that's a struggle. Chris (44:25) and they're about to get crushed. Yeah. Yeah. And then the struggle comes in. John Pope (44:44) They're happy, but I mean, are they really happy or is it the feeling of happiness when in reality there's, it's superficial on some level. Neil (44:57) They Chris (44:58) I'm glad you said that. Neil (44:58) feel valued, right? That change, whether they're in a marriage or no one. Right, they're fascinated because this person that they're infatuated with thinks that it know, infatuates them, right? And that's going back to the same thing. Elderly dating could be someone because once again, they are in a loveless marriage or physicalness marriage or whatever, emotionalism, whatever it is, right? They're lacking something. John Pope (45:00) Yeah, they feel attractive, they feel beautiful again. ⁓ Neil (45:24) And so sometimes if it's death or early divorce, they don't have content for a while. Or if they are in a marriage for a long time, there is that, that reality that there's something that might be missing because the other person's not putting their part in the relationship. Right. And so that is hard because, and there, I feel like there are certain people and I think this has changed now, but I feel like before 20 years ago, there were a lot of, I think, elderly people that were married just because of the sanctity. or the commitment that, I need to stay married, but then they would still go date or sleep around or something like that because they still wanted to stay married because they're like, well, we don't believe in divorce, but it's like even still financially, it's better just not get divorced, but we'll just go. Chris (45:58) lot of that. John Pope (46:05) God doesn't like divorce because you but I'll sleep with my squeeze. Chris (46:09) Well, there's a lot of religious and cultural aspects there. Neil (46:12) and financial. If I divorce this my wife, I'm gonna lose half my stuff. So I'll let her go play around or something, right? Chris (46:21) Well, Neil, you're talking about, you know, what do you do as an outside person observing this? mean, again, I would argue two things. One, you know, you, you, you get your heart crushed and getting your heart crushed sucks. It's hard. As a matter of fact, I have, I have the belief that that is the point in time when you lose your primary relationship, that people decompensate the most. Meaning I don't care if you're 17 years old and you're losing your first girlfriend, or if you're widowed after 48 years of marriage, John. John Pope (46:34) it sure does. Chris (46:51) That, that is a crushing feeling. And the other thing that I thought about Neil, as you were talking, you know, how do you help your loved one who's caught into this in a romantic relationship, elderly dating that's fraudulent. And you try to tell them, Hey mom, mom, listen, this is fake. This is not real. Well, now she goes deep into a nosedive into shame. Right. John Pope (47:14) And question two is a role reversal. Sometimes it's the children that's doing this. And so the older, the mother or the father ⁓ feel like they're being dismissed and treated like an adolescent again, or a kid, dismissed. Neil (47:30) So, and then I Chris (47:31) Yeah. Belittling. Neil (47:34) think the part that they also miss out on because I think there is something magical about as someone who goes through loss and grief, when they find someone and they now have a connection, honestly, if the child is in a healthy state dealing with whatever that happened to, because if it's a loss like a death, the child has to deal with that too. Now divorce might be different. I don't know, my parents divorced when was relatively young. I'm like, whatever, you go do your things. But once again, for the most part, if a parent finds someone that makes them feel loved and they are happy about it, the children should be happy for them. And the part that sometimes when they get into these relationships, the parent, like you said, John, I think that there's a reversal. If the child sees a concern and they bring it to the parent because they want them happy, but they also don't want them to be taken advantage of it. the parent really feels gets to that point where they feel like, you just don't want me half right. They don't like the parent because you're going against it. They think that the child's jealous or they can't move on or blah, blah, blah. But really what it boils down to a lot of times is the parent, the child cares about the parent. They see a risk that the parent's not seen. And then it becomes instead of, instead of actually listening to them, they become defensive. I've said it before. I feel like sometimes as people get older, in certain things if they don't address things they regress they go back to instead of being an adult they're acting like a 16 year old who's living on the whatever the oxytocin from the excitement you know it's that it's that whole behavior and so they goes back to John like you said they don't as the parent they don't want to be called they John Pope (49:12) He did think in terms of like, let's say there's a child and ⁓ the parent may have had a good relationship with their father or their mother, and ⁓ one of their parents dies, and the parent starts dating a new person, and ⁓ the person seems to be a good fit with the... about or the older person or the parent and then the child might find himself or herself being a little jealous that they might not have their that their relationship might be at risk a little bit is is that an issue yeah Neil (49:56) But that means that, and that means the child Chris (49:57) layers to this. Neil (49:59) has to work on something, right? Because that's the reality, right? The child has to work on their situations because of, you know, if you can't be happy for someone who's happy and finding the things that you don't have, you have to address yourself, right? But once again, when you look at it, are you, do you see the problem with what they're doing because you're jealous or do you see the problem because it's an actual risk, right? What are you looking at this from? In our perspective, we're seeing a huge risk in some of the situations we're dealing with someone right now. We're trying to figure out how to process that with them. How do you talk to them? How do you go with those situations? Because I want them to be happy. I would love for them to find someone that they can feel completely with. John Pope (50:41) Good question, Neil, and this is about your loved one. Is that loved one had patterns like this in the past that maybe not with this person that the person has an infatuation with or an obsession with, but in other things? Has there been some sort of like a relationship instability in the past? Neil (51:09) I don't know. I know that they were married for a long time. They've been divorced about as long now as it is. And I don't know the previous relationships and I feel like they're being regressed for a long time. And I think they're finally getting some of their emotions out and some of the previous feelings. think they're, like I said, to me, they're regressing back to a 16 year old because they're almost starting over because they've had issues they've dealt with, they haven't dealt with in a long time. Like there's a lot of baggage in this situation that we're going through. John Pope (51:25) Okay. Chris (51:38) You're right. And I love the, the memorable expression of address it or regress with it. You know, I mean, that's address or regress. That is absolutely true. And I'll tell you, you just put me into, in address or regress, but don't do it under duress. man, we are smithing it up. No, Neil, you, you made me, you put me in touch with something really much, very much. mean, my mom is in memory care. so she's definitely not going to be dating, although they kind of date in there too. ⁓ a matter of fact, John Pope (51:48) But you don't do it under duress. I do. Chris (52:08) a lot, but, ⁓ no, man, I tell you what, if some fellas coming up on my mom and she's 75 years old and you're going to go ahead and kind of do something with her, am bowing up. like, who are you? What is your doing? What is your motivation? This is my mom, you know? And so there's a heavy protection from people around that person that boy, I felt that when you said that and he, was like, Whoa, Whoa, wait a minute. If that's my mom, I'm very protective of that. John Pope (52:24) Mm-hmm. Chris (52:37) So I think that's an element as well, which leads to another element. Can you talk about this? So we're blending in, like, how do you suggest, how do you traverse these things? I really feel like there's a great hesitancy from elderly folks. John, really, I'd like you to confirm this a little bit or not. Like, they don't want to talk about this. They keep this secret. These are my children. I don't want them to know what I'm doing. John Pope (53:03) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (53:07) I want my independence. don't want to be told what to do. want, I want to, I can't talk about this. John Pope (53:14) I don't want to be judged and I don't want to be shamed and I don't want to be belittled. And, yeah. Chris (53:19) ⁓ Isolating. Neil (53:19) And there's also the parent-child dynamic. You don't want your child to know that about you as a parent, that you are human, that you want relationships, you want it. John Pope (53:30) Wow, Neil, that is so key. I think so, too. You want to appear as perfect as you can. And that's a temptation. Yeah. Chris (53:39) and not vulnerable. Neil (53:42) But I think that as the child, you have, once you get to a certain point, once again, as the dynamic grows and you go from the child who needs the parent to now an adult, that relationship should shift from parent child to really more of a friend relationship. that you should be talking to them as an adult to adult because it's at that point. it becomes a, to me, it's a bigger deal to be friends with your parents at an older age. than before because that means it becomes a choice. You're still friends with them. You care about them as much as they should care about you and you want that. And that's what they have to understand is this conversation, it's all natural. Like the idea of like the Asians where the parents move in with the family, right? When they get older. It's just a matter of fact. know, when the person we're dealing with, I've had conversation with her that I probably don't want to have. because I'm having a ⁓ serious conversation with her trying to understand this, trying to get to the root of this to try to help what's going on, right? But, that's part. Chris (54:44) You know, Neil, she's probably afraid to talk to you about it. She's probably defensive in trying to get there, you know? Neil (54:51) But I'm the only one she'll talk to right now. Outside of the people they're talking to right now. That's the thing. Because I don't have, I'm the safest. I don't freak out. I don't get mad. I don't, I just try to listen. I try to rationalize. I try to do these things with her and I'm just trying to treat her like a, a, a, a dog. Chris (54:55) Yeah, you're safest. John Pope (55:06) That's your natural state, isn't it, Neil? Don't you feel like that your personality is something that's non-threatening? Neil (55:13) Yeah. Chris (55:13) He might be a good therapist, John. What do you, you say? We should recruit the guy. Let me get into time. I'm aware of time a little bit. So I wanted to say, you know what the book that I wrote, you know, through a therapist eyes, re-understanding your marriage and becoming your best as a spouse has a lot to do with dating. And, you know, I want to, like, for instance, chapter 27, acceptance of your spouse begins with acceptance of self. That is a phrase that came to my mind that I wrote about. John Pope (55:17) I think he's excellent therapist. ⁓ Chris (55:44) Because again, I don't think if you don't do the grief work, if you don't prepare yourself, if you don't go into this new thing in a stable sort of way, accepting the realities in your life, accepting your spouse, can't happen if you don't accept yourself and all that that comes in with it. And then there's also chapter 24, boundaries are important markers between others and us. And you think about like, The limbic system's blowing up. I'm excited about this. I'm no longer alone. I've got a companion. I can stay active and do this. It's exciting. But boundaries are really important because if you go into this, you know, through, you know, I need this to be okay. You're in trouble. You have to have the strength of I'm okay if I'm okay. If not, therefore you can really enjoy. Like I'm be fine to meet somebody to start dating them. But if it doesn't happen, that's okay. I'm not in a rush. You can't go at this. ⁓ Neil (56:46) Are you sure you're kind of whiny? Are you sure you're kind of whiny about being alone a lot lately? It's kind of, it's kind of difficult. John Pope (56:52) I take that back what I said about you Neil. Neil (56:56) you Chris (56:57) that come from? Again, I started this show off Mr. Robinson. You didn't hear me when I said what I said at the front end. We're going to start this whole show over again and you're going to have to listen to that line. All right, anyway. John Pope (57:01) A little hostile, are we? Neil (57:10) But I, and I think that's something we've talked about. You have to be comfortable with yourself and know what's going on, right? If you, know my dad's on his third marriage and what he did before his, before his current marriage and he's on now, he had to basically, he was basically told he has to fix himself or get to where he's the best person for whoever he's going to meet. Acceptance of yourself so you can move forward, right? I wholeheartedly agree. Like right now that thing with you, it's like, great. If you work on yourself, Chris (57:32) Yep yep yep. Neil (57:40) that person if it's meant to be or you find that person, you're gonna be in lot better position because you don't have your baggage, you don't have your stuff. You're not going into a relationship trying to carry all this extra baggage with you or trying to make the relationship fill a gap that you never addressed. So I think you're 100%. If you accept yourself, your next relationship, whatever that ends up being, however you end up meeting it, it's gonna be so much better, so much more full. John Pope (58:04) The best thing that happened to me was to have my heart broken and left literally at a church up in West Virginia. Sorry about that, Chris. Best state in the union. But way up in the mountains and she decided to instead go to Boston instead of staying with me and being married. Chris (58:16) best state in the union John Pope (58:31) And it broke my heart and it took me about two or three years to really process through all of that. But at looking back now, that breakup helped me with my relationship with my wife and actually I think pardon. Yeah, set it up. Yeah, yeah. Because I know I needed to change. I needed to not be as insecure. I needed to be Chris (58:48) Set it up. Set it up. John Pope (59:01) I wanted to be a lot more, I wanted to be more assertive and not become what that person wanted me to be, but become the person that God intended me to be and the best person for ⁓ my soon-to-be wife that I married. Chris (59:23) Quick quick YouTube comment that we got up. I want to address ⁓ Yeah, yeah, I hear you is the YouTube comment is would would be good show for ladies mixed in so I tell you we're gonna give Victoria grief because you absolutely make the perfect point That's true. We need we need Victoria today. This is this is three three guys talking John Pope (59:41) Yeah, I know. know. Well, it would have been it would have been Victoria. But, you know, it's not our fault. She's got she's got this kid that. ⁓ you mean that's just women's work, you know, that raising kids now. Now. Yeah, I did. I did. But I mean, right. ⁓ Chris (59:49) Not our fault, right? It's not our fault, John! This darn kid, yes. boy, you stepped into it there. John Pope (1:00:09) But she couldn't be here. I think she would have so much to it. Chris (1:00:13) Just going back to what you were saying, Neil, I want to step in and say, yeah, listen, the reason, one of the reasons why I feel like the divorce rate is so high in the first place anyway, is because man, I know it's coming from a therapist, but I feel passionate about this. When you go through stuff like this, you have got to address it so you don't regress with it. You're just doomed. I mean, if you go into this with all these layers of things and try to think that you're going to make sense, mean, upside down is where you'll be. Because you'll have all of that other stuff kind of in there. So please, please, please. mean, if you're dating in the elderly, you know, style right now, but realize, you know, this therapy thing isn't for youngsters. I have, I have all kinds of ages in therapy. We need to address those things. If you don't, you just repeat them over and over and over again, Neil, you know. John Pope (1:01:03) You have to have some semblance of self-awareness and resilience to be able to do it because therapy is hard work. And it's great work. It's rewarding work. It's be all you can be like Army. it challenges you. yeah. ⁓ Chris (1:01:07) and resilience, yeah, develop. It is. It'll stretch you. It'll stretch you if you're doing it well anyway. know, are there any other kind of practical suggestions we had? think that a lot of the practicality, you think of the fraud stuff and I Neil, you were talking about dealing with a lot of that. Like, you know, I feel like you want to go in and do your dating thing, accepting yourself like chapter 27 and, you know, looking at boundaries and making decisions and, and really being aware of what your purpose is. But I mean, John Pope (1:01:31) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:01:53) You know, it isn't just about avoiding fraud and protecting your older folks and your family from getting took. It's a lot of emotional dynamics kind of go in here. John Pope (1:02:02) You want your family, you want your parent to be happy. You want your parent to have joy in life, not just a transitory happiness, which is happiness is transitory, but to have great joy in life, a fullness, a richness of life that they can see life as a tapestry. It's robust. Chris (1:02:21) Yeah. So let's move into our segment after closing comments or thoughts if either of you have of what we call the shrink wrap up. Do you guys have closing comments and thoughts though? Neil (1:02:41) One thing I would say about when it comes to, because I'm trying to think of, you when I'm looking at your notes, I'm trying to figure out some things, like one of things to think about that I think is really important for someone who's an elderly person who's dating, don't isolate and do this by yourself either. I mean, we've talked about isolation is such a big problem for a lot of things. But like I said, when you look at the scammer, you look at the fraud, you look at everything, just like in any other relationship. The more you isolate, the more you see things only through your lens. If you try to keep it secret, don't tell your friends, don't tell your family, don't tell your children, right? You're gonna have the risk of not getting that, that, counsel from those around. John Pope (1:03:18) And that's a good flag, Neil, that's a good flag because if you're feeling embarrassed and you don't want to talk about it, that's Neil (1:03:27) Or if the person tells you, don't talk about it. John Pope (1:03:30) That is, yeah. Neil (1:03:34) So, so that's what I would say when it comes to if you're an elderly person and you're dating, don't be ashamed to date. Like if your children have issues with it, then find friends, right? You should have someone you should be talking to. You should be sharing the joy about it and letting them kind of help you through this part, right? Because that's, that's, that's the biggest thing I would say, because once again, we are relational people. We should be happy when someone finds a relationship that actually fulfills them. And once again, from an outside perspective, don't be afraid if someone says, Hey, Chris (1:03:34) It's a problem. It's a problem. It's not good. John Pope (1:03:36) It's a problem. Chris (1:03:50) Right! Neil (1:04:04) I don't think this person you're dating is good for you. Even if it's a real person, not even scam, right? You need to be willing to listen to people and let people see it. Go on double dates and go see them and see the interactions. Right, don't isolate and try to hide this from those that are around you because you think you know best because you're 75 years old and you lived your life. No, you don't know everything. Chris (1:04:16) be a celebration! I'm glad you said that Neil, that's huge John Pope (1:04:29) Yeah, because I would hazard that a lot of people that get scammed by these, the Thorios, yeah, they're isolated. And it's not that they're in cognitive decline or delusional, ⁓ though some are, and, you know, be aware of that. But most people are just human beings that are lonely. They want to have Chris (1:04:35) are isolated. John Pope (1:04:55) want to have a relationship, they want to be loved, they want to love. And so it's not just the age, you know. Neil (1:05:04) Mm-hmm. Yep. Chris (1:05:06) Couldn't agree more. Yeah, listen This is where we do the shrink wrap up and what we do is we kind of do a little friendly competition See who kind of you know summarizes the show engages what we were talking about kind of final thoughts pulling it together ⁓ I guess I guess John we have a we have a head up a head to head with you you and I or we should I don't know if we want to maybe give Neil a shot at it and one of us judge me ⁓ John Pope (1:05:28) think Neil should take the shot and I'll decide. Chris (1:05:33) Oh, you want to do it you want to do all right Neil you want it you want to go brother? What do you think you got this? All right, man, you want to do rock-paper-scissors goods first or what? You know what I'll let you I'll let you think for a little bit. We'll give him the advantage John We'll let him we'll let him ease into his very first shrink wrap up. All right, here we go Listen, elderly is something that's real elderly dating that happens in people's lives I think just like most new things we really want to highlight Neil (1:05:38) Yeah, let's Do you want to go first? John Pope (1:05:50) Okay. But he's... Chris (1:06:02) You know, being prepared and being prepared is being through with your emotional process. You might have a lot more layers of things if you haven't been dealing with them through life. And that's okay. But we want to address before we regress and repeat things that are unhealthy in our lives. This is a time that's golden years. It's a beautiful experience. It is a time to celebrate and talk about not hide what it is that you're doing. Elderly dating can be a blast. And I want us to be able to do that in a way that is in healthy, entrenched ⁓ methods of attaching, you know? So have fun, man. If you're elderly out there and you're feeling lonely, there's all kinds of people at the senior center or in your public area, go connect. It's a beautiful thing. Just do it safely, wisely, and thoroughly with your mental health. Neil (1:06:55) And if you're single, reach out to contact.doittherapisteyes.com. is open, so just so you know. ⁓ Chris (1:07:03) He is going down the cliff brother, he's lost it. He is not gonna win John. I will veto if you give him this win. Alright stop, go Neil. John Pope (1:07:05) Yeah, you can't be his client. You can't be his patient or client. Neil (1:07:13) So, and I think it is important to note with this, elderly dating is key. Once again, we are relational. We want relationships. We shouldn't be isolated. We shouldn't be alone. I think the most important part when it comes to this is find systems and places you feel comfortable with, you feel safe with, and go enjoy your life. Like I said, online dating is one way to do it. But just go live your life and go interact with people and just go talk to them and open those doors with those pieces. Because one, if you meet them in person and you're going to places you need to, you're less likely going to be scammed or frauded from an online. And there's so many things to be careful of. So with that point, you know, going through everything we have, enjoy your life, be careful, celebrate with friends, don't be alone so that you're not isolated just like anything else. And just as you know, I'm going to say, because we've said it many times. Work on yourself while you don't have someone so you're better for them when you meet someone. So those are the things I would say key, you know, get those things, you know, get yourself good, find your spaces, go where you need to go and just find people that you enjoy life with. It doesn't have to be serious. I think Chris, you said it best, just cause you're dating doesn't mean you have to go for marriage. So. Chris (1:08:28) Alright, you know what, that's the shrink wrap up. Mr. John Pope is the judge today. Who's gonna nab the win? Who gets the dub? John Pope (1:08:34) think both of you are very eloquent and I think that you both expounded on very good points about this topic, this subject. I would say It's a tie. No, it's a tie. I think Chris, you might have been a little more eloquent, but I think Neil also you could see his from his experience. There was that authenticity. So I'm going to give it to both of you. All right. No. OK. I'm going to give it to Neil. I'll give it to Neil. He threatened me. Chris (1:08:55) Are you struggling to come to a conclusion, brother? Neil (1:09:15) He popped out. He popped out. Chris! Chris! Chris (1:09:17) I got the 10! Neil (1:09:21) No, honestly, I... Chris (1:09:23) He had a nice summary. John Pope (1:09:24) He threatened me. Yeah. Chris (1:09:24) He had summary points. He had bullet points. John Pope (1:09:27) Yeah. Yeah. He had bullet points. Yeah. But Chris, Chris, Chris signed my paychecks. So. Chris (1:09:31) I'm glad you landed somewhere, brother. Neil, he is not a great judge, man. I don't think he's got the judging capacity very well, does he? John Pope (1:09:44) I don't think I am either. I'll just say it. All right, but I do think Neil won. Chris (1:09:47) Everybody's great, John. Everybody's great. You all win. Congratulations, Neil. I'm proud of you, brother. You got win number one, even though you gave me way too much ribbing today. Listen, let's keep on figuring this stuff out together, elderly folks. And ⁓ we got the month in review next week. So we will see you with Mr. Kyle King coming to join us. I'm excited to see him back doing a review of this month's shows. So until then, take care and stay well. John Pope (1:09:52) Yeah. Everybody gets a ribbon. Okay. All right. Alright. Thank