Ever wonder why a minor argument over unwashed dishes can spiral into a major blowup? In Episode 359 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we pull back the layers on why we so often react with anger when we are actually feeling deeply hurt. Drawing on the principles of Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), this episode breaks down the crucial difference between our immediate, vulnerable primary emotions—like fear, loneliness, and rejection—and the protective secondary emotions like anger and defensiveness that act as emotional bodyguards. We explore how intellectualizing our feelings can trap us in cycles of criticism, and how learning to voice the true experience underneath can transform our relationships and build genuine emotional safety. Tune in to challenge yourself with practical reflection questions and discover how replacing “you’re impossible” with “I’m hurt” can radically change how you connect with those you love.
Tune in to see When We’re Actually Hurting Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Have you ever reacted with anger when you were actually feeling hurt?
- What emotions do you tend to show—and which emotions do you tend to hide?
- How would your relationships change if people saw what you were truly feeling underneath?
Links referenced during the show:
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/foc.8.1.foc32
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Emotions and Becoming Your Best Self
Chapter 1.12 | Some people falsely believe they don’t have feelings.
Many people recognize only secondary emotions and lose awareness of primary emotions.
Chapter 1.13 | Expressed emotion is positive and fresh.
Healthy emotional expression involves identifying and communicating authentic feelings.
Through a Therapist’s Eyes: ReUnderstanding Your Marriage and Becoming Your Best as a Spouse
Chapter 40 | Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust.
Validation becomes easier when primary emotions are understood.
Chapter 31 | Say what makes you uncomfortable.
Primary emotions often live inside uncomfortable truths.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #359 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello, this is Through a Therapist Eyes, and you are catching us on June 11th, 2026. And here in the Charlotte metro area, I can say it is hot. Man, it is hot. We have arrived at the type of time of year that I just cannot stand living in this climate. It is, did I mention? Hot. Anyway, this is episode, what are we on? 359, and we're gonna talk about feelings and emotions, shocking. that through a therapist size would be talking about feelings and emotions today. Why do we get angry when we're actually hurt? The emotion behind the emotions. And the idea here is is ⁓ we're gonna look at like primary emotions versus secondary emotions. It's kind of a psychology one one type thing today. ⁓ I ⁓ I I thought about you know getting back in from taking our break, you know, what that might be interesting to just get some skills and some tips and some basics and stuff. And this is an important foundational reality that we deal with every day in our therapy office for sure. So this is where you get insights fr directly from a panel of therapists in your car or in your home, knowing it's not the delivery of therapy services in any way, we get to hang out for the full time with Miss Victoria Endergrass. How are you, dear? Victoria (01:21) Good, how are you doing? Chris (01:23) man, you seem calm, cool, and collected. I love it. But but nowhere near Miss Casey Morgan. How are you, ma'am? Victoria (01:27) Sure. Kasie (01:32) Doing well. Thanks for asking. Glad to be here. Yeah, having a real good week. Chris (01:34) You having a good week? Yeah, you look good today. You gotta check her out on YouTube. I don't know what it is. Is it your hair? Is it your chin? Your shirt? It must be your shirt. Kasie (01:41) Thanks. Thanks. Maybe. Maybe it's because I'm using a better computer. Chris (01:49) What Could could be that John is not with us. Normally he is, he has got family events down in Florida, so we are ⁓ with him in spirit or he is with us in spirit. The three questions we like to get you thinking about things through the day, talking to us or listening to us. Have you ever reacted with anger when you were actually feeling hurt? And if your answer isn't yes, you're probably naive. Just gonna, you know, put that one out there and foreshadow. What emotions do you tend to show and which emotions do you tend to hide? Because we do have those tendencies, right? And then how would your relationships change if people saw what you were really truly feeling underneath what you present? All right, so what do I say? This is ⁓ YouTube, live, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, all the places, all the things. Somebody's got to step up for John to say what their job is to do. Kasie (02:48) Yeah, so listener or seer, depending on what medium you're using right now, we need that five-star review. Five stars is to help us be discoverable and to reach more of an audience. So please, please, please, if you haven't already, like, subscribe, and give us a five-star. Thanks. Chris (03:10) You know, John gets personally upset. He really has always it's fun the way he takes it. So Casey, you're you're you're a good stand in. I appreciate that. Kasie (03:17) Thank you. That that's pretty big shoes to fill. Chris (03:20) We do. We take this seriously, guys. ⁓ we take our time to do this and it's free content that we we provide. We love doing it, we love sharing it, but we need your help to help the show grow. It really does help the show grow when you do that part. You know, I was thinking ⁓ Neil, you could check the exact number. ⁓ and and also, Neil, if we've had new people that come in, like I don't see it on the notifications on the YouTube pack. channel stuff but I noticed I was tooling around on there with comments and we may have people. So I like to announce if somebody is listed on there in the notifications. ⁓ let's make sure that we do that. Because we have like 400 and some change you know subscribers on YouTube and and we need a thousand. That's what we really want are pushing for. That's what we're we're hoping for. And so if you share this with one person that you know will listen to the show, they are much more likely to click into this content and help us grow. So please share it with somebody. ⁓ and tell them exactly why what you got out of the show because if we have each one of you listening do that and we know there's people listening. We could see you. Not really you, but we could see your data point. And if you share that with somebody, four hundred becomes eight hundred and that's a big help to us. So please do that. let me see. We are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day and this is where we talk honestly about what actually helps. And this particular show is going to be one of those big ones because We all deal with emotions, we all deal with primary and secondary experiences. And sometimes it's a whole lot easier to show other emotions and way difficult to show our own emotions that we tend to hide. So Casey and Victoria, I guess, whichever, like what do you think about our question today? Why do you know, do we get angry when we're actually hurt? What what are the emotions behind the emotion? Kasie (05:13) Yeah, so I think that anger is from my perspective a secondary emotion, which we talked about alluding to that later on in the show. ⁓ and I think it comes from sadness and fear. Chris (05:28) Yeah. You know what's interesting? I I had this idea and and I I guess I took it in a different direction with you know trying to think of cooler titles and how to research and what we wanted to say. I I I actually think of primary and secondary emotions differently. I'm curious what you guys think about it. To me, the primary it's like a it's like a color, ⁓ colors of the rainbow. ⁓ you know, we we have primary emotions that I feel like are the most simplest form of the You know, the what what are the primary colors, right? You only have like four. You got, you know Kasie (06:01) Yeah. You got three. It's ⁓ yellow, blue, and red. Yeah. Chris (06:06) Only three? Victoria (06:07) It's only three. Chris (06:09) Okay. Yellow, blue and red and well, what's black and white, I guess. Neil (06:13) Those are towns. Kasie (06:14) Those are tertiary colors. Chris (06:16) Phones, tertiary colors. Neil knows this with his artistically laden wife. That's pretty impressive. ⁓ I really thought they were poor. ⁓ Victoria (06:27) You obviously haven't had a small child in a long time. Kasie (06:30) Yeah. We we can link the Miss Rachel episode on that. Chris (06:31) Clearly. I didn' Yeah, I do not I do not have I do not have that ability. ⁓ real quick to programming note. Neil, I I or our videos are switching back and forth really quickly. I don't know if that's because of the thing in the Riverside picking up on Victoria, but it's it's switching us a lot. I don't know if that could be fixed or whatever. ⁓ people identify emotions and they don't they don't identify them very well. ⁓ they don't get much further than happy, mad, sad and glad. So I feel like we have four primary emotions. And then all of the colors of everything else, just like when you blend a little bit of yellow with a little bit of ⁓ dang, what is it? Blue? No. Yeah, blue. Yellow and green. Okay. You know. Help me out, Victoria. ⁓ no, you know, you get you get other emotions that kind of combine together. And I look I think of it just like colors. So happy, mad, sad, and glad. Most of my clients can't get beyond that. Kasie (07:16) And you get green. Chris (07:33) and their descriptions of emotions. So I feel like those are primary and all the blending and all the other things become sort of the secondary. So I know we're gonna talk about it differently today, but i i i do I sound crazy with that, Victoria? I'm curious. Victoria (07:47) ⁓ I mean I think you're right as far as like the fact that some people have a hard time expanding their emotional vocabulary. And I mean, I know you and I have had plenty of conversations about this ⁓ through the podcast and like in our own time. Chris (07:59) Right. Ever get rid of that mood chart? Victoria (08:11) It's I mean, obviously you don't open the h closet in the hallway because it's in the freaking closet in the hallway. Kasie (08:16) Ha ha ha. ⁓ Chris (08:18) Yeah, well it's in the callway, not there. That's where we put stuff we don't use. Victoria (08:21) Yeah, it's not no, I mean I do if I do anything, I don't I still have some in my office that I give people if they like ask for it. But mainly the thing that I use is an app called How We Feel for to help people learn about like the different types of emotions through like check ins so that they can give me some better words on their own without being prompted by me when I do a check-in. But yes, if you're asking if I still do a check-in at the beginning of all my sessions, yes, I still do that. Chris (09:02) Yeah, Casey, I'm just wondering if if like I've found in my career I spend less time now, maybe is the way to put it, on trying to identify the proper word or, you know, descriptor for what somebody's experiencing. And I'm I guess I'm curious how you see that. Kasie (09:24) Yeah, I I agree for myself too in my own practice. I think that I focus a lot on how they are experiencing an emotional state versus what the primary name is of said emotion. I focus a lot on, you know, the sensation of the body, you know, like I get a lot of chest tightening or I feel really flush in my face or my hands get clammy or things like that. And You know, we can arrive at what some of those emotional underpinnings are, but I think that for me in my practice, I focus more on how it presents itself and what they're wanting to target in terms of, you know, feeling better overall. Chris (10:14) Yeah, I guess I guess I've just sort of have a little bit of the you know Like I don't use gestalt therapy. I I don't use the here and now stuff quite as much. Just 'cause I think it weirds people out, you know, mostly if I'm doing, you know, the type of therapy that I do and whatnot. But, you know, those those here and now sort of modalities very much are in the experiential basis. Like what's in the moment, right? I like I loved the training that I had with gestalt therapy. It was like s six hours for every Saturday for like you know, eight or nine sessions and stuff. It was it was it was a lot of fun. It was really cool. But, you know, th there's not really a descriptor on what your experience is. And it's hard to put into words. And I know we're going to talk about today, you know, more about how that really works, but here on the front end, I'm just kind of like it's it's hard to really put words on what it is that you're experiencing because so much of it blends together. You know? Kasie (11:17) Hmm. Yeah. And I think our ⁓ experiences build over time. And so, ⁓ and I think you have really good examples later on in the show, but I I think our experiences build over time. So it's not the fact that something in that moment is creating the sensation, feeling, or emotion that we're having. It's that over time it is built and built and built, and now We're seeing an eruption of that. ⁓ one analogy that I use often in my office, or metaphor, if you will, is an iceberg, right? Where what is visible on is the behavior that we exhibit, but what's hidden is actually the most dangerous part of an iceberg. Like the Titanic sank, not because they saw the iceberg, but because they ran up on an iceberg and it was. Chris (12:11) Yeah. They got grounded. Kasie (12:14) got grounded so massively underneath their boat. And so really it's what's under that initial behavioral presentation that makes the difference in how to approach and talk through or communicate about what we're actually experiencing. Chris (12:32) Yeah, this is why it drives me crazy. I mean, Victoria, I'm sh I'm I'm curious how many times you've heard in your experience, you know, like, I don't have emotions, you know, or I don't know what I'm feeling. I I just you know, I know people get numbed out, but like people actually believe that's what they're experiencing. Victoria (12:49) Yeah, no, I get that. I wouldn't say it's necessarily super often, but I definitely have gotten that before. Chris (12:58) It drives me nuts because I'm going to maintain to you listening here, you're the listener, that you have emotions twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty-five days a year, and how many minutes or seconds is there in a day? Even when you're sleeping, right? So yeah, Casey, it gets quite layered, right? Kasie (13:19) Yes. Chris (13:21) And and the more that you keep them in your own mind, they just sort of spin around. Can you imagine how many colors we come up with if we were to put what let me get this right? Yellow ink, green ink, and blue ink in a washing machine. I got one wrong. I got a thumbs down. Not green. Blue, yellow, and not red. ⁓ Red. Okay. Kasie (13:44) Red. Yeah. Victoria (13:45) Yes, Red. Yes, Red. Yes. Chris (13:49) Barkle those around, gallons and gallons of paint. Mix them up, just like is in your head, when you're thinking about their thoughts and feelings and thinking and thinking and twisting them around. How many colors would we have? What would that what would that washing drying machine look like? Kasie (14:13) It would be brown, but but sticking with the color analogy is 'Cause yellow and blue and green green and red make brown, but it's okay. Chris (14:22) You were waiting for me to stop talking to do that, weren't you? You did you were waiting Victoria (14:22) Case is not wrong. Case is not wrong. Chris (14:26) for me to stop for that. You were prepared for that, weren't you? I I could see that spinning in your head. Kasie (14:30) No, but no, but I definitely understand what you're saying. And just to illustrate that for forward, you know, if you really think about it, when you look at like a painting or a masterpiece, right? Like some of the most famous artwork in the world, like the Mona Lisa, the night, the screen, like all of that stuff. What is so interesting about those portraits is that they have such a variation of color, right? But they also have Contrasting shadows and things to emphasize ⁓ various regions of those masterpieces. So if you stand back and you think about your life and you think about your mo emotions as if they're some type of modern art masterpiece, there are so many representations of color, shadow, light, highlight, sequitous highlight, like all kinds of variations of that that come together. To make one cohesive thing. And so that's kind of how I see it, sticking with that color analogy is that our life are these masterpieces, right? And so to say that there is an absence of emotion, you're really, you know, robbing yourself of experience because, you know, happiness. is not the ultimate goal. ⁓ really just balance and resiliency is kind of the ultimate goal when we think about emotional understanding. You've got to have the full gambit of emotion ⁓ to feel kind of whole. Chris (16:07) To feel what? ⁓ yeah. Yeah, you know, it was it's funny, I I was just listening to you and letting my brain kind of move around with ⁓ you know, metaphors, because I think we we really do understand things very well through metaphors and the masterpiece that you're talking about. I mean, I've t I've totally gotten into as a single person, you know, the time that I have on my hands alone, these jigsaw puzzles. Right? And it's so fascinating to Kasie (16:09) Ho Yeah. Chris (16:36) Enjoy ⁓ Victoria, I know you're a jig putts off all the wheels. Victoria (16:38) I was saying did you did you ever finish the through therapisti Did we finish that one? Okay. Chris (16:43) yeah, the the yeah when we had our party Yeah, yeah, a long time ago. But I mean ⁓ it's it's it's like one little corner matches with one little element of another little piece. And if you're really doing a good job with jigsaw puzzles, like you'll find that that's the way that you get progression. That's the way that you get through this. Is so much nuance, so much cool little ⁓ experience, you know, that ⁓ it it's it's just neat, Casey, to to think about the the pictures. So what does this really look like? go ahead, I'm sorry. Victoria (17:14) Well it No, you're fine. Keep going. Chris (17:18) So so so let's look at like this layering. Like you you you we think because of our overwhelm that we have one emotion at a time, right? And you you understand what we're talking about with these metaphors and these pictures and stuff, like there's so much all the time. And I think that's why people get overwhelmed and like to purport, yeah, I don't I don't have it, right? But the reality of it is they're all layered in there together. Like, think about anger. You mentioned already, Victor. ⁓ Casey, like, yeah, comes you know, I learned that therapy one on one, when you see somebody that's angry, they're fearful. All right. That's just just assume that there's fear in there when you when you see anger. ⁓ but then there's other stuff that's hidden, really, if you get more dynamic with it. What's behind anger, it could be shame. Right? I've actually begun to understand ⁓ the the factor of when I when I see somebody with irritability, I'm I'm I immediately start fishing around like, wait, where's the anxiety? Because chances are there's anxiety going on here on some level. If that's trauma related or if that's a genetic clinical based anxiety, there's something that's going on with anxiety because we show worry, but it it it it jumps in or is supported by the the irritability rather is what we show, and it's supported by the worry. The worry creates Victoria (18:43) Well even with even that with like depression. I mean that was like yeah, that was like one of the main things that I learned in my internship was because I had a session ⁓ with my supervisor at the time and ⁓ I think she thought that I was headed down the wrong like diagnosis path because he didn't show any signs of like necessarily like standard depression. He was just like super angry and irritable. Chris (18:47) See. Victoria (19:13) And that was when I learned that like a lot of times and I think at the time it might still be the same as like men and adolescents, like show if depression can show as irritability. Chris (19:30) You know, I hadn't really thought about this. This is literally off the cuff in real time. ⁓ but I like that when we do that, I think that makes some of our better conversations. If if if the two of you think down through the DSM, right? That's the diagnostic and statistical manual. That's the big catalog of all the diagnoses we have in in mental health. I as you look at the different diagnostic sets, there's there's ⁓ criterion for each diagnosis and you have to meet like, you know, five of the nine listed things or whatever. If if we look at those criterion for vi different diagnostics, I don't think there's a lot of emotions even listed in them, are there? Kasie (20:16) Yeah, I would say the only thing that Chris (20:16) Mean depression has like sad and irritability is another one, but a lot of them aren't emotional descriptions. Kasie (20:27) No, it's more like like hopelessness, disorganization, ⁓ grandiosity, things like that, right? Like it's a yeah. Chris (20:36) But those are states. Just take grandiosity. You don't hey, I'm feeling grandiose today. I mean, I guess if if you had a wild description of emotion vocabulary, you could, you know, do that. ⁓ but ⁓ I think that's more of a state of mind in a grandiose, you know, full of life bigger than, you know, like your your manic, you know, that type of thing. Even manic or hypomanic or Kasie (20:44) Yeah. Chris (21:05) You know, rapid cycling. Th there's not a lot of emotion words in the diagnostic sets, are there? Kasie (21:11) No, because I think they all are referencing like your state of mind for a prolonged period of time. And I think emotions are typically more temporary. And if they're extended across a multiple day series or an extended period of time, they're transitioning from being a an emotion to more of like a state of being. Chris (21:33) That's interesting, isn't it? Kasie (21:35) Yeah. Chris (21:37) I never thought of that. Diagnostics. And thus, you know, look, it's to me, your primary and secondary emotions all work up into what is your experience. The more that you can say your experience, and Victoria, this goes a little bit why we don't I don't like the you know I told I told her a story, Casey. I was I was at a conference and the presenter, like, you know, all those feeling charts, we all had ⁓ You know, a little now we call emojis, but back when the eighties You know, when I saw this, I was like, this is wonderful. I love it. You know, you got your little list of a hundred and fifty different emotions with a face for each one to help you have your language and all to describe your emotion to your spouse or whatever. And this this presenter's like, get rid of it. Throw it away. And I was like, offended. I'm like, What the heck? And I actually did the same thing to Victoria about a year or two ago. And ⁓ I don't think she's over it yet, but ⁓ Victoria (22:32) That he did. I I'm listening I'm listening, it's just it keeps moving my video things so I keep muting myself. 'Cause my headphones 'cause my headphones are picking up everything. Chris (22:40) Well, that's probably what Yeah, that's probably what we need to do. So yeah, mute and then talk. But but but I'm saying, you know, it's it's interesting, right? Like because you know, I again, I don't know if we need to worry about the deep level of describing the emotions with words, but rather if you can describe what you're experiencing, you are going to be way more connected with your husband. You're going to have a way better business partnership. If you can describe to your partner in business what you're experiencing. You're going to get along better with your children if you can listen to them and help them understand what their experience is. Yeah, you see what I'm saying? Kasie (23:31) Yeah, and I and I think it's I think it's really good practice to to ⁓ and we may be talking about this later. I haven't looked all the way through the notes, but but I think it's really good practice to practice listening for emotions as well. ⁓ because I think that's part of any relationship is not just to recognize that someone's having an emotion. Chris (23:48) Mm. Victoria (23:50) I agree. Kasie (23:59) But when someone is talking to you and telling you ⁓ what they're experiencing or how they're feeling or what's going on, to really just listen in an active way, not to respond, but to to really hear what they're saying. Because when you go then to maybe try to paraphrase or rephrase or talk with them about their experience, you're more likely to stay on their feeling instead of reverting to what they're feeling is creating in you. And there is space for you to talk. I mean, everybody likes to talk and have conversation, but I think we have to first listen ⁓ and then take our turn with talking through the situation. And that's a hard thing to do in any relationship or situation. Chris (24:51) Casey, when did you learn to not talk and then listen? Kasie (24:56) Wow. Chris (24:57) Ha ha Was that this month or ⁓ Kasie (25:02) No. Victoria (25:04) Look, I can I can advocate for Casey, okay? She she is Kasie (25:04) I wouldn't be as successful as a therapist. Yeah. Chris (25:08) Sorry. Victoria (25:09) she's an amazing listener, okay? Kasie (25:12) I don't think I would have been this long in this business if I wasn't a good listener. Chris (25:12) I know she is. So listen, I mean, you know, the video or the visible emotion, the visible behavior, the things that we show to people is is fine. But when you really want to have a level of connectedness, or if you really want to be understood, because yes, like you're saying, Casey, we all like to be in conversation, we all like to discuss things, but you know, you have to listen. But you also have to pay attention to what it is that you're really presenting. If you want to be understood, you have to go to what you're hiding, the hidden emotion. And that's a hard thing because it's so layered for you to even know yourself. So so when you're sitting there criticizing someone because you're telling them what you think they should be doing, you're actually rejecting them. That's a hard one. You know, when you're leveling a criticism, but you're actually hiding a certain rejection of them. And there are many of these. I mean, it's it's it's what do you see? What are you doing? But what's underneath? I just want to s Kasie (25:51) Mm-hmm. Chris (26:16) to get used to thinking about what is underneath, what is then that iceberg. And you don't even have to have the word. But like Casey said earlier with the metaphor, if you're run up a ground and you're in the middle of the ocean, it's because you hit stuff that's underneath the surface and it's bothering you. Just get used to thinking about what is that experience? What what's happening for me? Because if you're not paying attention, you can't express it. And if you can't express it, you're not going to be understood. And if you're not going to be understood, you're going to be off. in completely other zip codes and how many times do we see that happening in marriage? Kasie (26:52) Yeah. I have an example even from today. ⁓ everybody in my household was off today for various reasons. I mean, the kids are out of school and my husband was off work today. And when I hit the door open the door and my dog had had an accident on the floor. And my brain immediately started thinking about, my gosh, there's been five other people in this house all day. And yet the dog managed to have an accident, right? So that started that stinking thinking cycle. And by the time I got to the living room to where I'm supposed to relax, I'm so built up with frustration that everything starts to. Chris (27:10) Right. Kasie (27:35) become an issue, right? Like every little thing is bothering me. And ⁓ really what it is, to be honest, like when I got to the core of like what I was actually thinking through or experiencing, I I think I was just a little jealous that I didn't get to be off today, you know, like that everybody else got to have like a vacation day. And I was working all day, you know, and I didn't get to like just chill and hang out, you know? And I think once I like talked to myself about that, I was like, that's pretty much what it is, you know. So I think it is important. Yeah. Chris (27:54) Yeah. That's a really awesome example. I mean, it was it was great because I had an eight thirty telephone session and I had a video session at one o'clock and I actually had to go into the office at four. So I kinda had a really easy day and mowed the grass in my yard, Casey. Just to just to drive it in a little bit further for you. But I'm obviously having fun with that. But now I understand this. Casey just shared a really cool example of real time today, what she's experiencing. Kasie (28:24) Nice. Yeah. Chris (28:39) and driving down into, you know, what she's actually feeling. You you you start with what your experience is, just like Casey described, and then you'll be more in tune even with yourself. And then again, you'll be more in tune with people that are loved ones around you and people that you're in relationship with. And you'll be you'll be much better much better off. Kasie (29:01) Yeah. And I will tell you that that what made it successful was when I was expressing frustrating moments. My husband sat with me and he just listened. And then by the end of me getting out what I was feeling frustration around, and I was able to kind of come up with my own conclude. Like he didn't even have to speak. And so then I was like, that felt good. Thank you for listening. So That was it. I mean, there was no heated exchange about it. There was no like you always are on me about everything. Like it's it was nothing like that. It was just like this, this, this, and this and personal responsibility. And now I'm just like, but I think it's just because everybody's off but me. I think I need some time off. Chris (29:49) So that's a perfect segue into primary and secondary emotions. Casey, w go ahead and take this if you will, or Victoria for that matter, on the way we have this with segment two. Because I have a different set of thought about it. I want to follow up the way you're looking at this with Adlerian psychology. That's that's what speaks to me louder. But ⁓ w wanna you take this. 'Cause that 'cause it's a weird way of thinking about it. Kasie (30:15) Yeah, so really the school of thought here is that the way we experience things is we operate from a primary place, right? Where we have this immediate, vulnerable, authentic reaction to something, albeit sadness, fear, loneliness, disappointment, shame, rejection, that it's what happens first, right? And so when we think about primary, we think about what happens first in a situation. and then what follows after that is the feelings of protection or what's going to guard around that primary emotion. So for example, if I feel like I, you know, am never heard by anybody in my house because I just kind of sit along quietly, which we all know that's a law. But Chris (31:07) Yeah. Yeah. Kasie (31:08) And I just sit along quietly and no one ever listens to me and no one ever does anything. I mean, I'm feeling pretty low or sad about it, right? And so that sadness sits with me. And then what comes in as the secondary emotion is maybe anger, because now I'm angry that nobody listens to me. So my first initial emotion, my primary emotion in that is sadness. But then the protective emotion, the one that kind of comes from my survival place is that of anger. Yeah. It emerges. And so anger is what I'm able to display or I put on display, kind of like birds in the wild, right? Like when a bird is mating, they may flail their tail feathers or flur their wings and things like that, because. Chris (31:41) Right sure. Kasie (32:02) That's their like sign, you know, and so We all have these secondary signs that we use for protection. And that's what speaks up for us. And it's different for different people. You know, and sometimes it might be a high energy emotion like anger, or it might be a lower energy emotion like withdrawal or staying quiet or not speaking at all, like the silent treatment as the protection. And that's when people get in that cycle of saying, Hey, what's wrong? And they're like, Nothing. And then it's just Head silence. Nothing. Chris (32:38) Yeah. Nothing going on. Kasie (32:41) Yeah, or people can in this protective state try to quote end quote numb out. But I will tell you, and I've said it before on the show, you cannot selectively numb. If you are attempting to numb out pain and sorrow, you are also numbing out joy and happiness and all of the other emotions that actually feel like a good experience. So definitely wanted to just throw that out there that you cannot selectively numb. Chris (33:08) No, absolutely. Victoria (33:08) We do we remember the ⁓ Fairly Odd Parents episode? Kasie (33:13) Yeah. Chris (33:14) No, I do not. Victoria (33:15) You know which one I'm talking about, Casey? When ⁓ he Timmy Turner asked his ⁓ fairly godparents if he could like I can't remember if it's one specific feeling or if it's no feelings. But like I think it's fear, maybe. I can't remember the exact one. But like, yeah, then he like basically almost gets himself killed. Like he doesn't experience happiness or anything. He's just like numbly going through life. Kasie (33:17) Yes. Chris (33:46) Mm. It's a miserable way to experience things. It r it really is. ⁓ Kasie (33:47) Yeah. Victoria (33:50) Yeah. Well then he's doing all this like f daring things, but then he's not having fun. He's just doing it. Like he's jumping out of a plane or whatever, but like not having fun doing it because he doesn't have the fear, you know, so he's done also not getting the excitement from it. Chris (34:01) Bueno, And people live that way. I mean that's it's that's the show, but actually people live that way. It it is a very Yeah, like that withdrawn, numbed out, shut down, defended space is ⁓ is something that we very much see in close attachments. Victoria, what do you remember about Adlerian psychology? You remember much about Adlerian stuff? Kind of right around Freud's time? Victoria (34:12) yeah, a hundred percent. Look. No. If you I mean, I probably do it already. I just don't necessarily remember what specifically was Adlerian. Chris (34:32) No maybe maybe not. Okay, okay. You do. You do. I I I we you do, 'cause we talked about it on the show. The okay, so ⁓ basically Edlarian therapy really is buzzing through my head with this primary and secondary emotion and and and here's why. What it what it looks at is really ⁓ it's one of those kind of experiential based treatments, just like Gestalt and and some others. And w I went to a conference and it was I learned a lot about it, it was like Victoria (34:43) I do, probably. I just can't. Chris (35:08) got reinvigorated with all the early, early modality kind of stuff because they will take a dream and you all you do is you you cite what your dream memory is, or they will take a core memory from when your childhood is and an Adlerian therapist will just ask you about that event and you'll begin to talk about it. And then you'll get into like what you're experiencing in your body. Where the tension is, what the what the energy is, you know, some of these energy flow kind of woo-woo practices are really cool because that like as you were talking, Victoria or ⁓ Casey about that, like we're not much different than animals, right? You know what my my my head was thinking about when you were saying the behaviors and stuff, you know, the geckos, you know what they do? Kasie (36:02) What? Chris (36:03) They get this big thing on their neck and it flies out. It's this big red flappy thing of skin, right? And and I don't know what it means. I think it's a threat because when I pick them up and throw them out of our office, Victoria, many times, you know, they're doing that, right? It's where we have like a gecko family that lives right next to our office. It's crazy. Victoria (36:23) You know what that's called? It's called the chicken bucket. Chris (36:25) Then well, we won't go public with that. We won't go public with that. Never mind. Strike that from the record, Neil. No, it's like we're not we are animals. And our emotional system is a part of us. And it's been a part of us for a really key word that I think you said, Casey, is protection. Like if we pay attention to what we're dreaming. Kasie (36:25) The chicken bucket gecko. Chris (36:51) If we pay attention to what we're experiencing when we're telling a story, just like you paid attention to your narrative in your head about coming home and finding dog dookie and everyone hanging out, what is that narrative sticking out for you so much for? It usually isn't the situation I'll give you a hint. It's usually something that you're experiencing, and a lot of times you really don't. even know it. Anlarian therapist is going to believe and tell you that your emotions actually mean something. And they're trying to protect you, they're trying to motivate you, they're trying to spark your interest. They're really basically designed and geared to keep your ass alive when it comes right down to it. Is that a fair statement? Kasie (37:40) Yeah. Yeah. Al Alfred Al ⁓ Adler is one of my favorite psychologists anyway. So I'm a big fan. Yeah. Chris (37:47) Yeah. Yeah, he ha he it was it was amazing the way that, you know, he came up with all these things ⁓ and why we went with Freud as opposed to to Adler drives me nuts in our field because 'cause Freud's the big famous guy and no one knows who. ⁓ old Al poor old Alfred you know. Kasie (38:05) What what's what's interesting, not to stay on Alfred Ad Adler, but what's interesting about him as a psychologist is like nobody really knows who he is, but everybody talks about birth order and things like that in modern day, you know, and we attribute all these characteristics of personality to where you're assigned and like the family constellation and the birth order, but really that's Adlerian psychology, just so we're clear. Chris (38:32) You know, you're so right. As a matter of fact, he's the one that actually first introduced the couch into therapy. Did you know that? Yeah. Yeah. We we Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alfred Adler is ⁓ he's he's the OG man. Yeah, man. I mean Kasie (38:38) Yeah. Victoria (38:40) is he? I love my couch. And I will say that like my my therapist that I have, her she kinda bounces around some, but her main office does not have a couch in it. And it's not my favorite. It's not my favorite. Chris (39:03) ⁓ what the heck, you gotta tell her to get a couch. Victoria (39:07) Well, it's just in one particular office that she meets in because she kinda she's more mobile, so she kinda hops around offices at her location. And so most of the other ones have couches in it, but her main one that she's usually in doesn't have a couch. It's like two identical like s chairs. I tell her every time I see her, I'm like, You gotta get a couch. Chris (39:29) Gotcha. Okay, so moving a little bit along, let's talk about like the application of this and how people really get into bad situations and you can have a comedy show around this in marriage, but think about the layering. Think about the primary emotion moving into the secondary emotion and what your experiences through this little vignette or this little situation. Victoria (39:31) I think it but Chris (39:59) Right. ⁓ because we have all kinds of arguments and marital experiences that are really quite painful. And you have a situation where, you know, it it can really derail a relationship and and crush the whole spirit of the house. And if it's chronic in any level, you're looking at a very likelihood potential of separation and full on catastrophic ⁓ divorce. So the argument you never helped me around the house. That's just kind of what you had talked about, Casey. I guess we didn't plan that, but nobody's helping you. You come home and you're responsible for everything, and here's the freaking dog dookie. And you're frustrated and you're critical of other people or yourself. But what's really going on for you, you identify jealousy. Well, it might be that I feel alone. It might be that I don't feel supportive. It might be that I don't feel like I'm heard. It might be that I don't feel like I'm respected. Did I say that yet? You see, the fight ensues, the the battle rages, and it really isn't about the dog dew. It isn't about the laundry, the dishes, the car, the lawn, the bills. we fight about money a lot, right? People will cite that as one of the top five reasons for divorce. But I'm going to submit to you, it isn't money. It isn't any of those things. It's the emotional experience that you have going on, and then you fight about it, and you're really fighting about the topic, but we're so missing the point of what the experience is. Kasie (41:49) Yeah. Wait. Victoria (41:51) Yeah, isn't it that Kasie (41:51) Yeah. Victoria (41:51) whole like like you're listening but you're not hearing me? Like that whole are you're here like are Chris (41:57) Well that's that's a way to put it. That's a way that's a way to put it, but Victoria, I would argue y you're not putting it in the emotional experience way, maybe either. So I'm not hearing you because you're not putting. I can't tell you what you're experiencing. You're p you're coming you come in the house, you scream about dog poo, and and you and you tell me that I'm not doing anything around here and that I'm you know, you're criticizing me. So so what am I supposed to hear? Right? Victoria (42:10) Potentially. Yeah. Kasie (42:26) Yeah, I think a good distinction here is when we talk about like external and internal locuses of control, right? When we only focus on externally what we see around us that starts to dictate our own behavior or thought patterns, what we need to do is take a pause, if possible, and focus inward on how is it, how am I currently feeling? And that is a difficult skill set to master because it is so easy to look externally and see every nitpicking thing around us that is not going correctly. Or to see someone in their own behavioral element and be very frustrated about what they're doing. But if we looked internally, what we would realize is that we are experiencing some type of emotional turmoil within ourselves. Within ourselves. And when that happens, if we can start that language process around, I'm feeling overwhelmed right now. Instead of saying, you didn't do anything all day, if we started the conversation with, I'm really feeling overwhelmed right now, then that changes the dynamic of whether we're listening to respond or listening to understand and things like that. When the first thing we do is start with criticism, it's one of the four horsemen. If you start with criticism, you're going to receive defensiveness and contempt. If you start with feelings or start with an emotion or start with your experience and talk about yourself first and understand where you are yourself, then that will be met with more apt listening and maybe even some accountability. Victoria (44:30) Isn't that also wouldn't you say that's the same thing that applies to and I've been talking to like a lot of my clients about this recently, is like also also being able to like say when you like being able to voice when you don't know what you're feeling instead of just saying, it's nothing. You know, like if I'm seeing like I'm in a bad mood and then my husband comes up to me and he's like, Hey babe, what's wrong? And I'm like, nothing. Kasie (44:47) Yeah. Victoria (44:57) Right. And I like immediately shut him down. Then that sets a certain type of environment. Right. But if he comes up to me and he's like, Hey babe, like you know, what's wrong? Or is something wrong? And I'm like, you know, I'm not really sure what it is. Yeah, I'm feeling a little off. Like more like how we were talking about earlier, like the descriptive feeling. So I'm feeling like, you know, pain in my chest or like a head, you know, like wherever. Then I think that like, you know, like my husband would then approach that situation differently because we're being like open and honest about like, hey, there is something happening, but I'm not really sure how to label it. Chris (45:33) Absolutely. Kasie (45:35) Yeah, I think there's some really good clues in what you're saying. If someone approaches you and said, hey, like what's wrong? There is something about either your tone, your face, your inflection, your body language. Something is giving something's off here, right? And so, you know, we don't give people, I think, enough credit when they are dialed in that maybe we're not even dialed in ourselves. Victoria (45:53) Right, right. Kasie (46:04) There are multiple times where I have to walk out of a room sometimes because my face does not have an inside voice. Right. And so I have a thought. That thought generates a face. And if I know my face is moving in a direction that isn't appropriate for the situation, I have to walk for a second and then I can come back. But there are times, especially in parenting situations, I don't know what it is, where I just want to laugh when I need to be serious. And so I have to like look away, walk away, put my shirt over my mouth for a second and bring it back down, do something to fix my face because my face is a tail-off. Chris (46:52) And and I wanna I want to really highlight here something important, and that's funny, Casey. I know that about you, which is one of the things I love about you. You don't have to guess about what Casey's thinking. You know, but but there's a word here that's important. There's two words, actually, the word vulnerability has been flying through my head for the last ten minutes. But there's attunement. And so you will have this experience, and I want to normalize it. You know, like your spouse knows you well, they're paying attention. And they are attuned to it. I can't tell you how many times in my married life I'd be come home and she would do exactly that, Casey. She's like, Well, what's going on with you? What's what's happening? I'm like, I I I just walk home fine. I don't I really and I wasn't in tune with that. And then about half an hour later I would just be processing my day and I'm thinking, you know, and I'm like, Dang you know what? I am a little bit more irritated with the kids than normal and they didn't really do anything and Yeah, there's that report at work that's really on me. man, I gotta get that done. That's really gotta be a priority tomorrow. You know what? I didn't know. I yeah, okay, you know what? Yeah, I'm stressed out. I am stressed out. I didn't know. Stressed out. You know? But she's attuned and she could see that. And it isn't any special skill. It's not that you have a deficit. You just oftentimes are not aware of Casey, as you say. You might not be aware of what your face is saying. Right? So get aware of your face. Or get aware of your feelings. Yeah. Victoria (48:18) Yeah, I was I was just had a client today ⁓ who basically this similar thing happened. They took a new job and they texted their spouse and said, Hey, like I took the position. ⁓ and their spouse basically said, like, you know, I'm really proud of you. You know, you've made a lot of progress. Like that you would you're very calm about this, where maybe six months ago You would have been freaking the F out. And like and so we talked about it and they were like, I guess I didn't I didn't realize that she she said, like, if I hadn't been in therapy this year, I don't think I would have responded. I don't think I would have taken the job. Like I don't think I would have responded the same way. And I told her, I said, Well, it's like other aspects of life, like sometimes other people notice the change and the certain things about us before we notice it ourselves. Chris (49:04) Yeah. Right. Victoria (49:15) Or we downplay it within ourselves when other when it's really actually like, you know, we think we've only made like this much progress, but other people are like, my gosh, you've made this much progress, right? But we only see like this tiny little prog you know. Chris (49:29) Right. No, and that and that's normal. That is very normal. Victoria (49:32) Yeah, a hundred percent. Kasie (49:34) Yeah, well, I mean, in in our human emotional experience, we really are, in a sense, creatures of habit, right? So there is and there's lots of studies about this, right? Like babies, like small toddlers, can pick out their like mom's face just by feeling it without having sight, right? Like or things like that, because we are such creatures of habits the way we walk. The way we talk, the way we sit things down, where we sit them down, that's all part of our behavioral patterning. And so when we have a blip on the radar, or if we are moving differently, it's very noticeable. The it I not I'm not an energies person, but the inner the vibe is off, right? Victoria (50:25) Vibes. Kasie (50:26) The way I come in and close the door has some like semblance and meaning sometimes, right? Like if it sounds like I slammed the door and I don't say, ⁓ sorry, you know, because sometimes the wind takes over, but You know, if if I'm slamming the door, if I put my keys down harder than normal, if my phone just gets thrown on the couch instead of placed by the couch where I normally sit, if I just sit down without having to say, Captain, get up, because that's where my dog sits, you know. I'm moving different. And when I'm moving different, then something is clearly off. And we know that about ourselves sometimes, but sometimes we have to take clues from other people because they're seeing it. And what they're observing is that we are speaking, thinking, talking, or moving differently. And when that happens, something is not right. Doesn't mean it's bad, but it's just not right. Chris (51:25) So, what Casey just so eloquently did is completely combine two entirely different levels of therapy domain modality and domain. One is behavioralism, and the other is these experientially based practices that we talked about, such as Adlerian. They're smooshed together. You know why? Because it's our psychological system, just like you said, our emo human emotional experience, which I didn't say for First time in a long time, which we endeavor to figure out together, by the way. How did I how did I do that? I mean, dang, I say that at the beginning of every show because that is exactly what we want to do. And you know, with your husband and wife, we're talking about marriage, I guess, as the prime example because it can be so inflammatory. Don't figure it out together. You know, have a level of vulnerability where you can allow the normal experience of somebody else who's attuned. Victoria (52:01) Better late than never. Better late than never. Chris (52:24) to let you know, hey, you might be a little bit off. You get to fit it on or fit it off by mean agreeing or disagreeing, but you figure out together because that's the way human beings operate. Boy, how about any big words can I say in one sentence, Casey? Kasie (52:38) Yeah. ⁓ I think that was great. It was beautiful. It sounded like Webster's dictionary coming out of your mouth. But, you know, and and I just want to say this here. I don't care how much you love a person. How safe you feel in your relationship, how ⁓ supported you feel by this person, there are going to be moments that things are out of alignment, out of attunement, and just need to be checked in on. ⁓ And it doesn't matter how good of a relationship you have. One of the best parts of intimacy ever in any couple situation is the intimacy of being able to handle conflict or the intimacy of being able to navigate. navigate with each other through harder emotional experiences for one or the other. That is where a lot of intimacy is built, is how do we conflict together? How do we get through big times or big things or big emotions or small intricate emotions that build over time? And how do we process that in the same space without, you know, going after each other's jugular, ⁓ physically and metaphorically? You know? So how do we Chris (53:52) And let me do something with that, Casey. Yeah, right? Because you're talking about the word intimacy and the best, coolest forms of intimacy. I love the way you just put that. Usually people are thinking about sex when you say intimacy. You're obviously talking about closeness and whatnot. But guess what, everyone? When you have that, you actually have the sexual element that is way better than you can imagine without that. Fair? Kasie (54:22) Yeah. I'm gonna tell you what, like I Victoria (54:23) Yes. Yes, yes. Kasie (54:26) I sometimes feel more attracted to my husband when he says something to me in a very ⁓ you know like not condescending but just explanatory way, tells me how he's feeling, listens to how I'm feeling. In those moments, I feel more connected, more attracted, and like more desired and desirable for other forms of intimacy because of. That shared emotional experience. Is it fun? Not always. Are those conversations fun? Absolutely. They're hard. They're hard. But smooth sails, smooth waves and water never made good sailors. You know, it's not always going to be smooth. Happiness is a trap. Chris (55:03) No. Oftentimes it's hard, scary, terrifying. I can think of some words. Kasie (55:22) But being able to go through the waves is what is solidifying, protecting, safe and intimate. And that is part of the human emotional experience. And so I think all of this combined kind of summarizes into that process of being able to know yourself first and then working on ways, working, meaning a work in progress on how to identify what is actually going on with you. Nobody gets it right and nobody gets it perfect. You know, today I got it right, sometimes I don't, and I just yell, like to be on to be completely vulnerable and transparent. You know, but today I got it right, you know, because it's a work in progress. That's what we all are. Normal is a setting on the dryer. Chris (56:02) Right. All of this, Victoria, from the title, Why Do We Get Angry When Actually? Victoria (56:16) Yeah, I was like, ⁓ can we go ahead and make her the winner of the rap the wrap up? 'Cause I feel like that just covered basically like everything. But Casey is also really, really, really, really good with words. So and really good at articulating things. So Chris (56:21) No no no. No we cannot. That is Okay, let's let's do the segment where we can articulate to the listener with the practical questions. This is a segment that we've created that we like to do on the show where we talk to you who's listening to the show in a practical way with practical real questions. Because we really are doing this all day long. And we want to just give you a little piece, though we can't do therapy with you on the show. We can give you practical questions talking directly to you. That's what this segment is. So I'll go first with ⁓ the first question I'll ask you. When you you've heard us talking about being angry, so it's not just angry, but when you have a loud emotion, think of the primary emotion, right? It's the simple question. We've talked about it and pounded it today, but when you feel angry, what emotion might be sitting underneath? Go down there. Get into the space where your experience is and get underneath it. Cause usually what comes up first is just an alarm bell. And then there's all the things that you're experiencing underneath that. So when you become angry or something else loud, like maybe super sad, what emotion might be sitting underneath of it? Question number two, Victoria's got one for you. Victoria (57:49) I'm doing the last one. So I'm just gonna go to number four. Because that's what we're gonna want. ⁓ so you might be thinking sometimes, like if other if you run into people and they appear to be angry with you, I want you to kind of think about like could there be other things beneath that feeling of anger? Like, could they be hurting? And not really just with anger, like it could be anything like we talked about at the beginning. Like if someone is fearing feeling irritable or seeming irritable or on edge, like could they be feeling some anxiety instead? And kind of like looking in that and having, you know, reaching for that empathy and asking questions. You know, we've po talked to you on the podcast before about asking clarifying questions or curiosity questions and like using that to kind of dig a little bit deeper into figuring out like what this person might be. We've talked about you know, hearing people, listen using those active listening skills to be able to try and figure out like, is this person actually angry, right, over something? Or yeah, is there like a underlying feeling there that this person that you're interacting with might be feeling other than the presenting feeling that you initially are seeing? Chris (59:11) Okay, love that. And Miss Casey has a question for you, the listener. Kasie (59:17) Yeah. So I think actually our second and third question kind of go hand in hand on, you know, what what are those feelings that are just really hard for you to admit to other people? And if there are feelings that you're having that are hard to admit to other people, is that because you're more protective over yourself when it comes to being vulnerable? Or are you someone that can express vulnerability? if not, then I would invite you to to get into touch with that. You know, when we're talking about our feelings, we want to speak from a place of honesty and realness so that we can move forward, not steamroll through, not go around, not move past, not sweep under the rug, but move forward or in a direction. to kind of help with some of the soothing properties of being able to express yourself. And that's what's important. No matter what stage of life you are in, and no matter what relationship you're in, you want to think about what are some of the feeling words that are hard for me to admit? And sometimes it might be simplistic things like it's hard for me to admit that I'm happy. And the reason that sometimes that's hard to admit or hard to fathom is because of a whole slew of things that have happened in your life. So it's worth exploring. what's hard to admit because sometimes there's underpinnings to that that if you think through that and work on those things, those emotions come easier and you're able to express them more freely. Chris (1:01:04) Very cool. I did a little bit of a poor job on time management today because before we wrap up and get out of here with the shrink wrap up, I I really don't want I want to try to find a way to talk faster, get a lot in here about building emotional safety. So you've heard us talking about all of this. Victoria, I want to take a page out of your book because you're you're really pretty cool, I think, in thinking about real clients and real moments. And I literally just had one today. Of Casey, only three people that I saw today. Sorry, I had a wonderful day off. Kasie (1:01:41) I had twenty-one thirty minute sessions today. Sure did. Chris (1:01:44) You did not. Are you kidding me? Victoria (1:01:47) Holy shrap. Kasie (1:01:48) I had six and a half hours, seven hours of thirty minute encounters today. Chris (1:01:53) How does that happen? ⁓ we gotta talk. That's a lot. That's a lot, a lot. Okay, so but my but what the the couple that I was working with today was really, really cool. We were identifying that one of them has ⁓ attention deficit disorder, ADHD, and the other one actually already knew they did. And it was really, really cool because what the impression is is ⁓ well I'll just break it down to the gender. She she knew she had for a while, and we were finding out that he Victoria (1:01:56) Yeah. Kasie (1:01:56) Yeah. That's a lot. Chris (1:02:23) had ⁓ likely, I mean I was like, man, my spidey stance was buzzing hard. I you know, I think we identified that today, right? And she had previously thought that he just didn't give a rip. He doesn't care about what I'm saying. It wasn't important enough to him to keep it in his head, so therefore, you know, and she just developed resentments and hurt hard, hurt spots about all of this. And they were able to like identify and they're like excited about wanting to talk about like Wait, what is the experience that you're having? Because if we're identifying something in that experience, then we can come to a better understanding. And man, we can build emotional safety like Victor or Casey, you were talking a little bit ago. So so here so there's a big goal of developing emotional safety through vulnerability, but through like having some grace, like, you know, give them a break, right? They're coming at you with some emotions. Well take a minute and find out what's the iceberg, man. What's you know, even if they're not telling you, like, wait, hold on a minute, slow down. There's probably more to this picture. And get curious to find that out, right? How can we build emotional safety? I wish we could spend more time on Kasie (1:03:42) Sounds like another show topic. Chris (1:03:44) No it you know what? If we don't have the guest that I wanted to have next week, ⁓ yeah boy. Okay, I'd say so. How to develop emotional safety. Stay tuned through a therapist's eyes. Okay, we'll do that. We'll do that. I like that. This time for the shrink wrap up. This is where we take some fun competition and engage in a wrap up of our show. We each take a turn. Neil gets to discern. Which one is the best for the show? You see how I rhymed that out, man? That was impressive, Victoria. No. Victoria (1:04:21) Do you want me to say that I'm proud? I'm kinda confused here. Do you want me to pat you on the back, give you a hug? You want a gold star? Chris (1:04:23) I mean impressive. How about you give me a dab tomorrow? Kasie (1:04:30) There is not emotional safety on this podcast right now. Chris (1:04:33) I tell you, ma'am. What? All right. You have been a little di distracted at times, I think, Victoria. You have been awesome. It's lovely to talk to you. Let's let you go first with your shrink wrap-up. Victoria (1:04:51) Just gonna refer to how I answered my question that I proposed earlier. ⁓ and I'm just gonna say that like I want us to try to I think that a big emotion here, I know we're talking about anger a lot, but I think like empathy is a really big thing to consider here, and just to really try to think about like when someone comes at you or you're engaging or encountering someone and they have this big feeling, whether it be anger, you know, sadness, irritability, whatever. Like I think I just challenge people to try and see if like there is something deeper going on. And seeing if there is like that secondary feeling underneath that ⁓ that could be more the reasoning behind Hold on, dude, behind like what they're initially feeling or what they're like presenting themselves as feeling. Chris (1:05:55) Okay. Yeah, I got ya. Casey you wanna go or you want me to go? Kasie (1:05:59) Sure, I'll go. ⁓ and mine is kind of a piggyback, but this is what I would just strongly say coming out of this podcast, especially since we kind of started off with the essential question of why do we get angry when we're actually hurt? And that is and that is exactly this. Anger isn't the first emotion. Anger is the armor. Underneath it is something more honest like hurt, fear, rejection, shame. If you want to understand yourself or anyone else, don't stop at anger. Get curious about what it is protecting. Chris (1:06:45) Okay, I get to go third with the shrink wrap up, and I'm gonna say, look, you know, we have so many experiences and our culture, especially in the States, but I think around the world, we have so much protectiveness about emotion. Think of the British upper lip, stiff upper lip. Think of the machismo in in the Hispanic cultures. The Germans are known for their staunchness and ja, right? Amer Americ Americans are known for our Kasie (1:07:11) We will ask the questions. Chris (1:07:15) you know, independence and you know, we don't need anyone. We're the the lone cowboy on the ridge, we're loaning loners. All of these different cultural connections, they connect us around the world, if you think about it. Because we're fearful. Y'all? We are fearful of something that is our creator if you believe in a creator or our systems have naturally, if you're just a scientist, about emotions and feelings. They're primary and they're secondary. And you heard us urging all throughout this show. Learn that, see that, know that. Use that in your life. Yes, we can add words like vulnerability. I love Victoria's addition of empathy. And Casey's talking about getting under that iceberg. Your emotional systems are amazing. And this whole show today is to sort of break you into thinking about it in a little bit of a different way. You'll be healthier, happier, and emotions can be known to be a beautiful part of you, not a dreaded, scary. Part of you. It's beautiful. Jump into pool and check it out. You'll be understood and you'll understand way more. Neil (1:08:26) Awesome. This is such a great thing for I think a lot of people to hear and and honestly with today's today's rap shrink wrap up I think it has to go to Victoria. I just think her I think hers was fantastic. I think she's been she really has been a spot on today. I mean she's been amazing. So so good job Victoria. Victoria (1:08:38) Look, I was the first one on this link today. Okay. I beat Neil. I beat all of y'all. And another win for the shrink wrap up. Thank you, Neil. I appreciate it. Kasie (1:08:44) Yeah. ⁓ Chris (1:08:54) All right, man. Victoria, enjoy the dub. Y'all stay well. We'll see you next week and we very well might be talking about how can we develop emotional safety in this human emotional experience. Have a great week. Victoria (1:09:08) ⁓ Chris, I just need you to know that we're currently watching ⁓ a video about paints and coloring and they're showing the primary colors there, okay, and what colors you get when you mix the primary colors, okay? Chris (1:09:20) Okay. Is the show still going on, Neil? Like what the heck? This is not emotionally safe. Neil (1:09:26) It is. We j we just wrapped up with the with with a color lesson for Chris. All right. Have a great week, guys. Chris (1:09:31) She's coming for me. Kasie (1:09:33) Yeah