In Episode 363 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we tackle a critical question many couples face when their marriage hits a breaking point: Before You Separate: Can a Trial Separation Save Your Marriage? Joined by family law specialist Chelsea Gajewski, Managing Attorney at Sodoma Law, we bridge the gap between emotional survival and legal reality to explore how a separation can be a purposeful crossroads rather than a fast track to divorce. Rather than treating physical separation as a chaotic escape hatch, Chelsea and Chris break down the vital distinctions between an aimless “break,” a highly structured “therapeutic separation,” and practical interim arrangements like “bird-nesting” to protect the kids. Listeners will walk away with actionable advice on how to establish clear boundaries, avoid catastrophic legal mistakes born of high-emotion decisions, and set intentional goals to ensure the separation yields clarity—whether that means ultimately saving the marriage or transitioning apart with peace and dignity.
Tune in to see a Trial Separation Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- Are you considering separation because your marriage is over—or because your pain feels overwhelming?
- What should every couple know before one person moves out?
- Can a well-planned separation actually improve the chances of reconciliation?
Links referenced during the show:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jmft.12132
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/personalstories
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/relationshiptoothers
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/marriageandfamily
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #363 Transcription
Chris (00:01) Hello, this is another episode of Through a Therapist's Eyes. We're coming at you on July the thirteenth, kinda recording on a weird day. Monday after my workout, John, on Mondays. I don't really feel right for the show, brother. John (00:15) I I I just did my P T, so I'm I'm I'm not right either. So if we both go to sleep, then we'll let Chelsea handle and carry the show. Maybe Neil. Chris (00:23) So that Chelsea, who is Chelsea? So we have a show for you tonight. This is episode 363. Before You Separate, can a trial separation save your marriage? So the genesis of this show really is her partner in arms and does Sedoma Law reached out to Metrolana. That's kind of our our parent company, and you know, they they kind of she they they wanted to talk to Metrolina about just being a resource and you know therapy and that kind of thing. And You know, of course I'm always looking for a good story, a good idea, a good thought, and we came up with like many of them. And so we made the month, the Sort of general theme of of separation, divorce, and reconciliation. how do you save your marriage? how do you separate? How do you divorce? All these, all these tough, tough things. It's a it's a tough month of real, real topics. And so that's what you generally get on Through Therapist Eyes, where you get insights and information from usually a panel of therapists. Today you've heard the voice already of Mr. John Pope hanging out with us. You doing good, John, after this PT? John (01:34) Ye sore as all get out. Chris (01:37) I know! I don't like that feeling. But anyway, this not to delivery of therapy services in any way. We usually have three reflection questions for you to think about during the show. I'll pop those to you now to consider as we talk about this pretty strong topic with lots of ins and outs from an actual lawyer who deals with this all the time. So the reflection questions, are you considering separation because your marriage is over? Or because pain feels overwhelming. Two, what should every couple know before one person moves out? And three, can a well-planned separation actually improve the chances of reconciliation? Question mark, right? So click subscribe to your stuff. John doesn't want to get upset, so he needs five stars in order to be okay with you, you the listener. So five stars and all that things look, guys, it really does help us out to grow the show and and do that kind of thing. We're trying to get a thousand subscribers on YouTube. And that is our goal for the year. leave a review, Apple, Spotify, all the places. Contact through a therapisteyes.com is a great way to get up with us. we do Facebook Lives usually on Thursdays about six fifteen and whatnot. This week's all kind of messed up because we're doing it on a different day. But listen, through a therapist eyes, this is where We are licensed clinical therapists doing real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk honestly and openly about what actually helps. And again, we have with us a a lady. wait, wait. John says wait. John (03:10) wait, wait. We're not so we're not we're not providing therapy at this time. We're is that correct? Chris (03:21) you're trying to play a victorious stance, aren't you? John (03:24) I can't do a good job. I can't take her place, but Chris (03:28) Also I said it, John, we this is not delivery of therapy services in any way. John (03:30) you did? Well, I'm seventy three, so Chris (03:39) We have from Sodoma Law Miss Chelsea and Chelsea you're gonna have to help me out because it looks sort of like Gazdick. I know it's not Gazki Gayeski Welcome to the show, Miss Chelsea Gayeski. Chelsea Gajewski (03:49) Gayaski. Thank you. Happy to be here. Chris (03:57) Yeah, she is the principal, managing partner, guardian at Lightum, and mediator. she's the managing attorney of Sodoma Law Offices in the Belmont office. That's where we generally are, west of Charlotte, North Carolina. she focuses extensively on family law, including divorce, custody, child support, equitable distribution, alimony, and domestic violence matters. God, John, that's a lot of stuff, man. John (04:25) Yeah, this is yeah. Chris (04:26) She is a certified family financial mediator and guardian at Lightham and has nearly a decade of experience helping individuals and families navigate some of life's most challenging transitions. Chelsea is known for her compassionate practical approach, making sure clients understand their options and leave with a clear plan for moving forward, whether through negotiation, mediation, collaborative law, or the dreaded L word. litigation. Her goal is to help clients confidently navigate the legal process while preparing for their next chapter of life. You know, Chelsea, I'll tell you, I have been doing therapy, you know, since ninety-five in some form or another, and I gotta tell ya, it's it's become very clear to me anecdotally that when a client o of mine, and I've seen it John's seen it hundreds or thousands of times, is moving into a space of separation and divorce And I gotta say, it it hands down feels like to me when they're at their most decompensated state. And what I mean by that is this is tough. Chelsea Gajewski (05:34) Yes, very tough. There's so much uncertainty and it's the uncertainty that drives people's anxiety. They're grieving a chapter of their life that they thought was gonna continue forever, but I think it's the uncertainty, it's the anxiety that comes along with the separation, a divorce that really just irks people, which is understandable. Chris (05:55) Yeah. Yeah, it's terrifying. It's overwhelming. It's just sort of a surreal thing. I mean I I you know, I I think you and I have you, I and John all have a a little piece in common of like when somebody comes to our office that that is a big, big day in their life. Chelsea Gajewski (05:59) yeah. Yes. John (06:14) Mm. Chris (06:16) Right. One of the biggest steps that they can take, either the most horrifying or or or beneficial, you know, is debatable. Chelsea Gajewski (06:17) Yeah. Yeah, it took a lot of courage for them to get through the door or to even make the appointment. But we so have s even so many people make the appointment and then cancel and then make it again and then cancel. And then when they finally get there, they're like a little embarrassed for canceling so many times. We're like, it's totally fine. It's okay. We know it takes a lot to even walk through the door. Chris (06:47) Right, right. Well, I gotta tell ya, I I mean it's just an impression. Take it for what it's worth, y'all. I have actually I was talking about the show this week. I I got a couple people that I think that we have clients in in common already. And I have heard great things about you guys, Ms. Chelsea over there at Sodoma Law. And I gotta tell you my impression is that it's it's super cool to how do I really wanna honor this? Words probably can't convey enough, like Lawyers that care, right? Like lawyers that that are looking to be compassionate in their delivery. You know, we talk about bedside manor with with doctors. I mean, you guys are guardian at Lightems as much as you know, mediators, as much as litigators. Like tell me about tell me if my impression is correct or what your true what your passion is for doing, you know, what you do and a little bit about you. Chelsea Gajewski (07:51) Yeah. So Yes, we try to come at everything from a full perspective, right? It's not just, hey, it's not a churn and burn. We just want to get you in the courtroom. I mean, my what I say to every single one of my clients is when you talk to me, I'm listening and I'm remembering. And so I try and get them from A to Z. I try to ki pan out what everything is gonna look like from when they walk through the door through those next steps and try to figure out, okay, how can we reduce the uncertainty? My favorite part is When they're out of a relationship that was unhealthy, and I'm getting an invitation to their second marriage, or I'm getting their Christmas card with their and their kiddos, and they're just they've moved, they're in a new neighborhood, and they feel this sense of relief because they did not think life could be better or life could feel more calm in a new chapter. That's my favorite part. The world did not end, and actually for a lot of people, it just began. Chris (08:34) Yeah. The work the world didn't end, huh? Chelsea Gajewski (08:52) And so the seeing them release the guilt, release the shame that some people carry when they go through a separation, I think it's beautiful. I don't think people should be stuck in something that makes them unhappy. And if I can help you get there and get there as quickly as possible with the most knowledge, they get to be part of the decision-making process, then I feel like I've done a good job for you. Chris (09:16) Now how how often do you well, before I get to that, just just a quick little bit about yourself. Like what do you like to do for fun and what got you into law? Chelsea Gajewski (09:23) Yeah. so I thought I was gonna be a social worker, I thought I was gonna be a therapist, but I'm very impatient. And so the idea of like, you know, just really sitting with somebody for years and years, I just that's not my strong suit. my strong suit is helping get people to the next chapter, getting them to the next thing as quickly as possible so that they can, you know, start their new life. I'm from Buffalo, New York. Go bells. I live Chris (09:30) Ha ha ha. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, John (09:55) Snow Chris (09:55) easy. Easy easy John (09:55) snow. Chelsea Gajewski (09:55) This is our year. Josh Allen, he's gonna do it. Yeah. I live in Belmont. I've lived here for about five years. I love it. I opened up the Bal Belmont office two years ago. I started at Stomal. It's my first and only legal career job. So I've been there ten years. I'm newly engaged, so that's exciting. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we're excited. John (10:17) Congratulations. Chris (10:18) Yeah, I love that. So before I neglect and forget, I think that people are going to want to talk to you 'cause if you're dealing with this stuff, you guys seem straight up to be straight up. How about that? Right? How how will they contact you? How can people get up with you? Let's do the zinger. Don't be bashful. Chelsea Gajewski (10:34) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Sodoma law dot com and we have seven offices, but if they want to talk to me or anybody at my office, there's a Belmont link or they can call seven zero four four four two zero zero zero zero. Chris (10:54) And of course we'll have the links on the show notes on through a therapist eyes dot com. Go check it out. I don't know, man. It it's it's curious to me how how often do you see reconciliation? How often do you see people, you know, we're you know, we're talking about, you know, tonight a little bit, you know, can trial separation save your marriage? This whole separation time period, you know, have you seen many people that are separating and aren't sure about divorce? John (10:54) Whoa. Chris (11:23) and want to really explore together in a more relaxed way, you live there, I live here, and let's see what we can do. Chelsea Gajewski (11:33) So I don't see it very often. usually it's one person that has made up their mind and they want to separate. and then the other person is playing catch up, basically. And sometimes in that situation, the person who feels like they've made up their mind, they may be more cautious because they feel bad or they think, Am I making this decision too quickly? So I've seen it in that situation. And we always tell them, just because you're separated doesn't mean you have to get divorced. I have seen it where both parties Are unsure and they definitely need some time apart. The trust has been broken. And so they take this time to attend therapy together, figure out finances during this time, and then see if they can rebuild the trust. And if they are able to rebuild the trust, I've certainly seen people get back together. And then I would say the third kind of scenario that I see is somebody continuously said scheduling a consultation with us. Chris (12:29) Yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (12:29) And then just never making the decision to separate. I think I have a few people who I've seen them four or five times over a couple years and they've just stealth they've never made the decision. Or oddly enough, they'll call and say, Well, my spouse made the decision, so now I need ya. Chris (12:48) Gotcha. Yeah, and those John, those might be the folks that are that are therapy bound, I think, where we may jump in. Would say you. John (12:56) Yeah, I agree. you know, they come they come maybe three or four times as well and not show or or whatever and then eventually we'll we'll get But yeah, I think that's important. I was I was gonna ask you a question and and maybe it's pertinent for a little bit later. do you ever you have somebody come to see you and but the other part of the the the other spouse is is not getting advice from a lawyer themselves. What do you say to to the spouse that is coming to see you about separation or divorce regarding that? In other words in other words they're they're they're kind of rolling over a little bit more and Chelsea Gajewski (13:47) So just to make sure I yeah, go ahead. John (13:55) Letting it happen. Chelsea Gajewski (13:58) So there's there's a married couple, one person comes to see us, the other person doesn't have an attorney. John (14:05) doesn't have an attorney and in therapy, I say, you know, you might need to be able to to do this, you might need to have your interest. Maybe there is a possibility of reconciliation. I'm wondering if you're going to you if you're going to be heard. And it and let's and and there's children involved. I I'm just wondering if if there's a what would you advise if the person comes to see you, the other person, the spouse that wants a separation or or explored or divorce, what what would you advise? Chelsea Gajewski (14:40) Mm-hmm. Well, if my client is the one That does not want the separation, with I'll give them options. So I'll say, Well, you know, have you talked to them about this? Are you sure they won't don't want to reconcile? And then we have no problem also sending them a letter to say, Hey, I know you don't have an attorney yet. Are you sure you want to separate? My client still wants to reconcile. But if you don't want to, then here's the things that we need to move forward with. we always ask. There's no harm in asking. and oddly enough, I just had a client where he did want to go. John (15:07) Mm-hmm. Chelsea Gajewski (15:17) To discernment therapy. The wife was unsure. She wanted him to move out, wanted to separate finances, wanted to put a schedule together. We pushed for the discernment therapy or the therapy. They have attended so many sessions, and I recently heard from him and he said, We're, you know, we're moving back in and we're gonna give it another go. So I will always say, Hey, if you guys can reach an agreement, then you, you know, I don't mind if they don't have an attorney. But if they're being non responsive or you guys are just totally two different ways. wavelengths, it is helpful if that other person has the journey. John (15:48) Mm. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Chris (15:52) Yeah, you know, it's it's it's a wild time and I would imagine you see all sorts of scenarios. You said you don't see reconciliation or therapeutic separation rather. I I think that we're speaking the same language, but John, have you have you ever heard of discernment therapy? 'Cause Carolyn talked about that as well. and and and by the way, Carolyn I think is planned to be on next week with the with us. d have you heard of discernment? Therapy? Do you know what that really refers to? John (16:24) I have only recently heard of that. So I mean it's hey I'd like to know a lot more about it. Chris (16:29) Okay. Yeah, I think that my guess, Chelsea, is that that is a basically I mean our field goes through iterations or renaming things and stuff. So funny. Like we had a a words of trial separation or therapeutic separation. Those were terms that I'm kind of familiar with. Chelsea Gajewski (16:39) Yeah. John (16:46) Okay. That's the term I'm I'm used to, is therapeutic separation term. I'm sorry. Yeah. Chris (16:50) Well, we're old, John. We we go back. Is that what discernment therapy is, Chelsea, would you say? Chelsea Gajewski (16:56) Yes. Yes. It's how do we get back together? What did what is that gonna have to look like for the each of us? And I just you know, it's rebuilding that trust. Some point the trust was broken and it's like can we rebuild it? Chris (17:12) Right. yeah, John and I are well versed, I think, for the most part, in in in therapeutic separation, that concept. I I'm just curious if for you to spitball it off the top of your head, if you will. spitball is a term we use in West Virginia, by the way. Got it? What is discernment therapy? Like how would you how would you lay that out? Like what has been your experience with that? Chelsea Gajewski (17:26) Mm-hmm. Got it. Recognize? John (17:36) Pittsburgh pirates. Chelsea Gajewski (17:42) It is two people who have separated. They're not quite sure if they want to get divorced. And so they go and meet with a counselor together. They communicate what the issues have been, what they want to see from their partner with the aid of a therapist, and they see if they can get on the same page or, you know, can somebody commit to always being there for dinner for the kids? You know, what are the issues? Can that person commit? And if they feel like, okay, yep, they've committed and they're gonna stay true to their word, then they usually stop with the therapy and then they get back in the same home, or they continue with the therapy while they're moving back in with one another. Chris (18:20) Yeah. So I I think that's one of the big things I'd like to lay out today, really, is that, you know, when you're in this space well let me back up. Let me back up and say I I said this on the show last week with with with Casey. you'll have to listen to that to hear a little bit more about it. But I have a heavy lean as a therapist towards reconciliation. Not because I get a vote Not because I have an agenda, and we talked at length about that last week, but simply because I think I know and understand in best practice that study after studies and my anecdotal experience it shows me that when people are able to reconcile their lives go much smoother and it's healthier. Right. I think that's a generalization that I just kinda know and I have seen many times, right? Honestly. sadly do I've seen divorce, obviously. Chelsea Gajewski (19:07) Right. Chris (19:11) many times, if not more times, but the the alternative is is absolutely a thing and is at all means better for all. But separation when that happens, it doesn't have to mean only one thing, you know? That that basically simply means I'm moving out and removing towards divorce. I mean that's you know, boom, people are right there. But in reality, it can have many purposes. You know, creating emotional space, reducing conflicts, improving a sense and feeling of safety, evaluating the relationship, preparing for reconciliation, preparing potentially for divorce. You know, there's there's a lot of things that go into this and and and the question I think people are usually stuck on is should we separate or not? But I'm thinking, you know, the question Chelsea Gajewski (19:48) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chris (20:04) really needs to be more appropriately like why? What what are we separating for? What is our purpose? And that determines what it is that that happens next. Chelsea, I'm just willing to bet you have those kind of conversations all the Chelsea Gajewski (20:21) Yeah, and it's what to your point, what is the goal? What do I think this is gonna get me? And to your point, it just made me think. Like I wonder if people once they separate, right, there it's immediate fear. You've lost something that you thought you were gonna have forever or you think you're going to. And so that's major, right? And so it usually triggers anxiety and again with the uncertainty. And to your point, I wonder if people jump to divorce sooner than reconciliation sometimes, because it gives you some sort of finality. right you're not in this prey area okay I'm making this decision and I'm just gonna keep going on this path because the anxiety is too much it's too uncomfortable Chris (20:52) Mm. Mm. John (21:00) I'm w I'm wondering too, is I'm thinking that separation might actually be more threatening in a in some levels because you know, you might not let's say the person that is separating and says, I wanna leave the domicile, then it's done, it's over. But then there's that uncertainty about, well, you know, I may change my mind. I may change, you know, I might be influenced to come back or something and I I'm not sure I want to do that. And so they do that. And so that I'm I'm wondering if that's an issue. The other issue is is that can people do a separation by remaining in the same house but moving beds and moving places to stay because there's finances level of separation because a lot of times finances are Chris (21:50) Levels of separation. John (21:57) you know, my clients always complain about how much their copays are, you know. Chris (22:01) Yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (22:01) What is it John (22:03) Yeah. So, you know, they're their the finances are a little tight sometimes. Chelsea Gajewski (22:08) Yeah. Separating is a financial luxury. You're usually going from a two-income, one household, or one income, one household to two households. in my world, so when I say separation, it is living separate and apart. You are in two different homes. And North Carolina will only recognize you as a separated or as separated if you have two different homes. That's not one person over the garage. That's not one person in the downstairs apartment. It is, we have two physical addresses. Chris (22:35) Yeah. John (22:38) You have to be a a a year too, right? I mean basically okay. For a divorce. Yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (22:40) Mm. They get divorced. Chris (22:42) Yeah, you have to you have to demonstrate the John you know, as you know, the you know, gas bills in my name in another location, all that kind of stuff. Now we live in North Carolina. This is a international podcast, so you you are speaking about North Carolina law, but of course that is very different in other states, right? Chelsea Gajewski (22:55) Yes. Yes, yes, thank you. Yes, North Carolina. I know. I know. I think we're what one of eleven states that do it. John (23:00) Alienation of affection, that's another one. Chris (23:01) Yeah. yeah, that's another one. Chelsea Gajewski (23:07) But yes, no, North Carolina, physical separation for a year. And now, you know, talking about reconciliation, that does play another part into in North Carolina, you have to be not only physically separated for 365 days before you can get a separation, but also at least one of you has to no longer have the intent to remain married. So when we're talking about this reconciliation, it also calls into question, okay, well, when is the real date of separation if they ultimately decide that they want to move towards a divorce? Chris (23:38) You know, I've often wondered about that, Chelsea. Have you ever seen it to where I'm glad this came up because I didn't have it it prepared my brain. And that's why, you know, we're pretty genuine on the show. well, I'll ask my question in a second. You did say separation and you meant to qualify for divorce, right? See, it's so crazy. I talk to people in other states and they're like, What, you have to wait a year to be separated and do this? Like, what are you kidding me? We waited three weeks and we went down to the courthouse and got it knocked out and we're done. I'm like, wow, that quick? Chelsea Gajewski (23:54) Yes. John (24:00) Yeah. Chris (24:06) You know, so every state, at least in the United States, and I'd be curious what happens around the world. I I think that there's definitely a lot of variance in the way that people, you know, legislate it because it's a because it's a big it's a big deal. I mean, this is a it's a it's a big legal reality. I mean, it's a it's a full legal relationship marriage is. But I'm curious like how many times Chelsea, like you go to court and one of 'em's like, Yup, like I'm not down with this, Your Honor. I this is crazy. I don't want this. I I'll tell you why this is silly and a waste of the court's time. Like, I don't want to get the Divorced. Chelsea Gajewski (24:39) So oddly enough, I've never had that happen because North Carolina, it's just so long as you check these two boxes, you can say, I've not had the intention to remain married for this past year, and we have had a separate residence for the past year. The judge doesn't even need to take testimony. It's all procedural, even though it's a major life event, right? But in North Carolina, they make you wait a year in part because you want to resolve those financial issues. You know, health insurance. Once you're divorced, you can't continue to carry your spouse. So taxes, you know, who gets to claim the insurance on the house? Who gets to claim the children? There's so much to figure out that I don't mind that making them wait that year. And also it take makes people take a beat before they maybe hop into another marriage. so I don't mind the year. There's a lot to resolve. Mm-hmm. Chris (25:30) You know, I don't want to scare people, but I want eyes wide open with this issue. you, ma'am, are about to step into one of the biggest life changes you've ever had. You, sir, if you're triggering it, are about ready to move into the one of the biggest life transitions possible. And you just had a little bit of a list there. You know, I don't think people are very aware of all of the different dynamics. I think they're Chelsea Gajewski (25:36) Mm-hmm. Chris (26:00) aware that they're not aware, which makes them super anxious. So for two reasons, not to scare people, and not to, you know, you know, manipulate somebody's decision or or shame anybody, but that's a long list and there's a lot of things to consider. Can you continue that list or repeat that list? Like I want people to understand what they're getting ready to get into. Chelsea Gajewski (26:20) Yeah, I mean it's not just and this is people who don't have a prenuptial agreement, right? So I'm just talking Joe Schmo off the street, no prenuptial or post-nuptial agreement. So there's no predetermined what's gonna happen to us. Financial issues could be taxes, who's claiming the insurance, who's moving out of the house, who's gonna start taking over the utility bills, the mortgage. And then if you have children, that adds like twenty other layers, right? Where are the kids gonna put their head at night? Who's gonna continue to make legal custody decisions? For them. So where are they gonna go to school? You know, if dad moves out of the the current school zone, but maybe it's a better school. Should the kids go there or should they stay with all their friends and all their activities? who are should they go to therapy? Who's gonna help make those decisions for the kiddos? And then also taxes is often a big issue. are we gonna file jointly? Are we gonna file separately? What's the big benefit? And then also who who owes who money, if anybody, you know, for not only the children, but maybe. A spouse who stayed at home or makes you know less money than another spouse. So I we kind of break them up into four categories, one being custody, child custody, one being child support, if any is owed, one being alimony if owed. And then the fourth one is that equitable distribution, and I call it property division. It's the same thing. It's hey, what have we acquired during our date of marriage through our date of separation? What is all that stuff? And so Chris (27:44) There you go. Chelsea Gajewski (27:50) So many people will say, Well, my bank account's just in my name. So we don't need to talk about that. the TV, you know, fossils was a big one for us last week. Someone had spent a lot of money on fossils and scuba equipment. And and so it's like, what is all that stuff and what is it worth? So but those are the four big categories custody, child support, alimony, and equitable distribution. And then oddly enough, I didn't mention divorce because it is so simple to get in North Carolina. Chris (27:54) I get the T V. I get to T V. Mm-hmm. Yeah, to yeah, you don't get denied you answered my questionnaire. Yeah. John (28:20) It's a proximity if your children, if you've got small children and you move to Denver, for example, and or let's say over to Men Hill, I mean that's a that's a that's a trek and and so the Met Gradle Metrolina area is just it's huge. And so Chelsea Gajewski (28:31) Mm-hmm. I know. Mm-hmm. John (28:50) It's life's gonna get so much more complicated. And are they thinking about the kids in all of this? Just just the thought. So Chelsea Gajewski (28:59) Mm-hmm. Chris (29:01) John, when you're terrified and you're overwhelmed and you're scared and you're anxious and you're hurt and you're grieving and you're in pain, you tend to be blinded. John (29:10) Yeah, I realize that. I know that. Chelsea Gajewski (29:13) So oddly enough, in my experience at least, those who do go through trial separation and maybe don't end up going reconciling, they tend to have the best co-parenting relationship. John (29:25) Yeah. Chris (29:26) say that again. Chelsea Gajewski (29:27) In my experience, the couples who have separated, done a trial separation, maybe gone to therapy, co-parenting therapy, taken some time apart, but not down each other's throats, right? Because they don't know if they want to continue to be in a relationship with this person, but they don't end up going towards reconciliation, they tend to have the best co-parenting relationships. Chris (29:48) I I think a lot of this really is about being purposeful. And and John, I know you know those things are difficult for people, but I but I but I said that because y you don't really have a sense in your emotions, kind of what's going on. And people aren't aren't grounded. And therefore you you're not prepared for the situations and That's when real trauma happens. And I happen to have a little bit of an example when I was a kid. I remember my mom and dad were getting separated and dad came to the house. I didn't know what was going on, but they must have agreed that's the time they were going to get the equitable distribution of the stereo. It wasn't the TV, it was the stereo. Dad was coming upstairs to get stereo. Mom didn't like that very much, and she ended up biting his arm into a Yeah. Police are called, arguing is had. John (30:14) Mm-hmm. Chris (30:38) kids, I don't know where my brother was, where my sister was, but I know I was just a wreck and you know, looking around like it was traumatic. Like, can we be purposeful? Can we be intentional? Can we be prepared? Can we not be in the moment impulsively in the moment creating more trauma? John (30:45) Mm-hmm. That's why I would think I'm sorry, I'm just thinking that's why it's so important to have counseling. For example, if you had a parent that that divorced, parents that were divorced, and you're facing divorce in your own experience and you're saying, What the hell did I do wrong? You know, well, how did this happen? How did I get here? That's an issue, right? I mean, and and how's this going to affect my kids? Chris (31:08) Right. Decisions, purpose, you know, having a grounded sense of self. How how do you guys see people trying to navigate that, Chelsea? I know that's one of the reasons why you reached out the first place to Metrolito, right? We refer to counseling, you know, but Chelsea Gajewski (31:33) Yeah, so and the other thing it takes two. You know, it really does because you could have one person that has all those things, right? Purpose, sense of cer sel or sense of self. They have a goal in mind. They wanna be amicable. They wanna meet somebody in the middle. But then you could have somebody who is only focused on getting the stereo, right? So you could have two different people and it still blow up, but we always recommend to s to get a counselor. You know, I tell people try not to rely on friends and family because John (32:05) Thank you. Chelsea Gajewski (32:06) They're not going to pay for the advice they're giving you, right? Everybody has an own experience, and you know, somebody could hear one little thing in a vacuum and be like, that is ridiculous. Whereas a counselor, you're gonna be more vulnerable, right? There's no secrets to that you can't share in a safe space. And so hearing it from a neutral third party that's hearing everything is gonna be the most helpful thing to you. Reduce the emotions. Chris (32:09) Mm. man. Yeah. So that's a huge thing there, I feel like. I want to slow down with that and stay with that for a minute, with the caveat of I'm I'm curious if you can cite like what are the biggest things that that the mistakes or things people miss. You know, what what are the legal mistakes they make with or without you having a liar? And I and I think one of them it comes from, you know, hey, brother, she's taking advantage of you. You better squash this, or sister, girl, eat the one. You know, all this sort of back and forth from other people that don't know the situation and aren't third parties. Is that a big mistake? Chelsea Gajewski (33:05) Yeah, I think right. I think a big and I don't even know if it's I I try not to tell people they made a mistake, right? Because we can't go back. But I would say the things to really be careful of are I've seen and it's one that you can really never undo, is if you have two parents, right, that are really involved And this one like hurts my heart, but one parent will move out and it's usually the less emotional parent. and then the more emotional parent will stay with the kids and then there's alienation going on. And now that other parent's out of the house. So there's more than John (33:40) Chris, that's your specialty. Chris (33:42) It is not my specialty, John (33:43) Gottman. Chris (33:44) but I am gonna jump on that and say, listen, parent alienation, we've talked about it on the show before. That is when one parent says a cross word about the other parent to the children. And I gotta tell you, that is a damning thing to do that to the children. I'm sorry if your child's in the car and I said that word. But you know, that is a harmful, harmful, terribly harmful reality to that child's brain. John (33:54) Mm. Absolutely. Chelsea Gajewski (34:08) It really is. I mean, it carries them into their future, right? Then how they're gonna make relationship decisions. I have seen children struggle tremendously. They don't want to go to school. They have so much anxiety. Now they're dating somebody who's in and out of jail. Like it's it's not good and you've those people feel like they're getting at the other parent, but they're not. I mean, they're truly impacting their child in a negative way. So that one, that's like my biggest gripe is do not move out until we have some sort of custody arrangement. John (34:38) You know, I'm gonna ask I'm gonna say this is that I think if let's say if you're four or five and you don't quite fully under you you cannot fully understand what's going on and yet you feel all the emotion and all the intensity and all of that, that's gonna be a stuck point that you're gonna have throughout your childhood, your teenage year, your dating, your relationships making permanent and lasting relationships and in terms of of your partner in the future. I I think that's I think it's very important that that parents will focus on what's what's best for the kids. So Chelsea Gajewski (35:24) Yes. Yes. And that might not be what's best for you, mom and dad. It's best for what's the ki you know, what the kiddo need. John (35:32) You're Doctor Laura Schlesinger on that. Chris (40:14) What do you want couples to know before making such emotional decisions? Chelsea Gajewski (40:20) I want them to know. So I guess when people come to me and they're like, I'm ready for a separation or divorce, I'm not questioning them, right? I'm not gonna be the person to say, are you sure you want to reconcile? At that point, I'm there to support them. I will ask them questions and I will dig deep. I will get curious. but if they've truly made this decision, I want to separate, I make sure we know who's covering what expense. What financial responsibility are you gonna have out if you move out or if they move out? Like what is that gonna look like realistically? I want them to be prepared there. I want them to be prepared as it relates to the kids. Where are the kids gonna go to from? What do you think that should look like? I would say the biggest question I get asked in initial consultations is, my gosh, if I leave the house, am I gonna be considered to have abandoned my spouse? No. The answer is no. I think pe I think that must be like the number one Google result for what happens if I leave the house. I gotta say I've never done it, you know. After this, I'm going to. It's gotta say abandonment because I get asked that so much. Abandonment is like somebody just up and left and they've, you know, release. Chris (41:28) Mm. Chelsea Gajewski (41:33) least all their financial, you know, responsibilities. They don't even see the kids anymore. They've like truly ghosted for lack of bet better words. but I would say the biggest ones are what are your financial responsibilities going to look like and what do you want the custody schedule to look like or where are the kids going to spend their time. Chris (41:53) lot there. you know, it it to me, you know, I I don't think we have time to talk more in depth about therapeutic separation or discernment therapy as is the newer terms. We we have covered that in the show before, so Google search it on through a therapy size dot com. Chelsea they can check it out too. How did I I got that voice, right? no it because be well hold on John, because go ahead. Okay. John (41:54) Sorry, can't Chelsea Gajewski (42:11) Yeah, yeah. John (42:13) Yeah. Can I ask a questi in a second, can I ask a question? going. No, I was just thinking, is there a difference? I'm sorry. Is there a difference between people that are living together and they say, well, we're gonna separate? And and then do they treat is there something happens when people marry and they divorce and it just gets nastier when they do separate? Or is it or is it just as contentious with with people living together? Chris (42:25) You're fine. John (42:49) And being domestic partners and doing everything Chelsea Gajewski (42:52) So both meaning both in both situation, both people have realized they wanna separate. Just nobody has moved out yet. John (42:58) Right. Right. Chelsea Gajewski (43:01) I've seen it both. It it truly depends on who these people are. And that's another part why I love my job. Every family is different. It's never gonna be the same for everybody. So you could have two people who are able to get along, able to coexist, reach a resolution with attorneys, living under the same roof, and then at you know, then we're coming up with a plan who's gonna move out in ten days? What are at what does everybody's financial obligations look like? Or you can have people cutting off the internet, setting up weirdo cameras in the house. Like you could John (43:30) Yes. Chris (43:31) Right. Chelsea Gajewski (43:31) It just really depends on who these people are. Chris (43:32) We I have heard so much though of one all that. John (43:33) Stalking. Stalking. Yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (43:36) Yes, it's shocking. And then, you know, the people who make it worse or do those weird things, it just re-inforces the other person's decision to separate. Chris (43:47) It probably so. You know, it it pushes it pushes more. So I what I was getting at when I was getting around there is with the sermon therapy and such, you know, it it we we're not gonna talk about it trem tremendously 'cause we have other shows on that today. We just don't have time, but I mean the goal, the goal, the goal is clarity. I hear a theme, you know, in what we're talking about. Goals, timelines, counseling, expectations, accountability, like John (44:07) huh. Chris (44:12) These are all the things that we're doing. What are we doing when we are taking a break? What like we gotta be and I think that people just aren't able because they're scared. that is that single-handedly to me, when people can't regulate and they can't do some of these things, is is advantage lawyer because they just you guys cut to the emotion of it. You're not affected. Chelsea Gajewski (44:38) We do. I mean that's why I say you're gonna hire me because I'm not gonna be the emotional person. That you're gonna hire your therapist to help you with that. But I mean to your point, you know Brene Brown says it, clear is kind, unclear is unkind. And so if I do have somebody who is can they're considering reconciliation but they're separate, let's put a timeline on it. Okay, you guys are gonna go to X amount of sessions within the next 30 days and then let's reevaluate. That tends to calm people down. Okay, in 30 days I have a plan, I know what the Chris (45:05) Love it. Chelsea Gajewski (45:08) that's gonna look like. And in the meantime, if they want, we can work on their budget. We could see what they may need or what they may owe. Because again, the le the more they know, the less anxiety, right? Chris (45:19) I bet you can literally see people in your office, Chelsea, as you go through this will happen, this will happen, this will happen. okay. Chelsea Gajewski (45:30) Yes. Yes. John (45:32) You're do you Chelsea Gajewski (45:33) Yes. John (45:33) you're diffusing. You're what you're doing is you're de escalating and you're taking the emotions out of it so that that actually people can move on and and get through this this process. I th I think that's very good. Chelsea Gajewski (45:50) Yeah, I try to keep my caseload relatively small so that I am or somebody on my team is able to get back to them within 24 or 48 hours, whether it's at, hey, you know, I got your note, I'm in a mediation or I'm in court, but somebody's gonna get back to you. And they do. They're like, okay, that sounds good. Like the expectation is clear. Yeah. Chris (46:10) I'm a I'm gonna create a slogan for you, Chelsea. You ready? Sedoma Law cares. I mean and that's what comes out to me. This isn't a what'd you say, John? Chelsea Gajewski (46:14) Mm-hmm. John (46:18) He has that dulcet tones. You have dulcet tones. Chris (46:24) These guys make fun of me on the show, Chelsea. You believe that? I don't I don't I don't understand. I was playing off the air. Tell me why. Somebody help me understand. John, now I lost my train of thought, for goodness sakes. No, you guys care. You guys care, and and that seems to be a theme, you know, coming down through here because I think people aren't thinking, and they do. They need a third party that's not thinking in an emotional way. And that is one of the big advantages of the law. But you gotta find somebody that's actually not just trying to Chelsea Gajewski (46:26) I could see why though. I could see why I'm just kidding. John (46:30) It's so nice to talk to you. I'm listening. Chelsea Gajewski (46:36) we do again. We do. John (46:36) Sorry. Chris (46:54) you know, zing the system and I'll get everything for you. Man, we'll tear that person's butt up in court and all this kind of stuff. I mean, I there's scary, scary practice out there. Chelsea Gajewski (47:00) Yeah. It really is. And I mean one of the things that I think works well for my office or at least my team specifically is they should know all of their options and the likelihood of the result of each option before they're even making a decision. So every time they're getting like I call it a CY CYA, cover your you know, and but it is an option to each person and it's like, okay, what does this mean? What is this gonna look like? Where is it on the cost spectrum? And then you make the decision. I'll always tell them this is what I would do, but ultimately it's your dis I say we're in a partnership. We really are. I want them to feel empowered during this dis this time. Chris (47:40) For instance, a lot of people may not, you know, when they're l thinking about separation, they've not thought about bird nesting. What is bird nesting? 'Cause that's a that's a l idea that you might provide somebody with, right? As a unique opportunity, yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (47:48) Mm-hmm. Yes. John (47:49) Mm-hmm. Chelsea Gajewski (47:54) yeah, nesting yeah. John (47:54) That's Chelsea Gajewski (47:57) okay, so it's two people who want to separate or maybe are considering separation. But they want to keep the kids' lives consistent. And so instead of the kiddos moving in and out or transitioning between two homes, the parents are. And so I've seen this a couple different ways. Either one parent has gotten an apartment, and so there's two homes, and then they share, right? So when they'll just call it week one, say spouse A is with the kids, week one, they're in the house with the kids. Then spouse B is in the apartment, and then they switch. So when it's time for spouse B. John (48:13) Mm. Chelsea Gajewski (48:32) to be with the kids, they're in the house and then the other spouse is an apartment. Sometimes people if they have the financial capability, they each get two apartments because while you're separated, there's a little lack of boundaries there, right? You're still in each other's zones. You're still in each other's yep. John (48:48) Or if there's a family member that somebody could stay with. Chelsea Gajewski (48:50) Yes, a family member, that is also very common, but sometimes each per like a spouse may not want to stay with their in-laws. So you gotta have both families here. but it it it's a temporary option for sure. Not long term. Chris (49:07) So we'll be we'll be talking about actual divorce more next time. Today, you know, we've talked a lot about separation and the ins and outs, and the natural inclination is you know making the decision to move forward. How do we do that? We'll talk more about that next week. But I think there are I want a quick little segment. I I think there are things that we can highlight today that Just don't need to happen as part of this process. Certainly in the separation process, parent alienation is just a horrible thing. If you're saying something a bad about your spouse or soon to be ex-spouse to the children, shame on you. Stop it. That's killing the kid. John (49:41) Yes. Chelsea Gajewski (49:47) Even rolling your eyes, even, you know, shaking your head or all of it. Chris (49:54) Yeah. Yeah. And now I mean let's also be realistic. I mean, we're gonna raise our voice, we're gonna get irritated. I'm not saying be a perfect parent. That's different. This is intentional, and willful lying and to the kid about the other parent and just I I mean, I just heard horrible things about it. And I've had a case that was a nightmare a couple of times. John had that's why he said you're the expert in it. But what are some of the other things, you know, would you say Chelsea? Let's don't do this during separation. Don't don't don't do these things. What would that be? Chelsea Gajewski (50:10) yeah, that's well. John (50:11) I have two. Chelsea Gajewski (50:24) Don't make large financial decisions. I think that's gonna really either break the trust more or create more uncertainty, especially if you do end up separating. I would say, don't talk to combined friends or family. Maybe just speak to your own therapist because then you're involving a bunch of other people that don't need to be involved. I would say those are my top three. Definitely do not talk to that about your spouse to the other child to the children. Chris (50:55) Yeah, yeah. John (50:57) Very biblical to keep your own counsel, you know, basically. Chelsea Gajewski (50:59) Mm, mhm, yeah. Chris (51:03) Yeah, and and you know, it's interesting. I'm thinking about it from a therapy perspective. You know, I'm thinking, you know, sometimes people will separate and they just shut off and have no communication. It's kinda like, you know, what are you doing? not having any goals, again, no purpose, no clarity, you know, no idea of like what are we doing here? using children as messengers and lots of things as blended family issues, you know, the steps or the girlfriend and how the girlfriend or boyfriend's involved and blah. Chelsea Gajewski (51:15) Yeah. Chris (51:32) you know, testing the other person, punishing the other person. You know, there's there's a lot of things emotionally that are pitfalls as well. Chelsea Gajewski (51:38) yeah. And oddly enough, all of that will impact your legal case, right? It's either gonna drag it on longer. It's gonna So if you're trying to punish your spouse, well that's just gonna create more attorney fees, right? Because then that spouse isn't gonna be will more more willing to reach a resolution. it could drag out the case, it could schedule, you know, they could put more pressure on you legally. Okay, well we're gonna do deposition or now we're gonna, you know, subpoena your girlfriend. Chris (51:45) Ooh how so? Chelsea Gajewski (52:06) It's just it could definitely snowball and not the way you want it to. the kid stuff, it it just it's never gonna go well. You know, it's just never gonna go well. I'll just say that. But I think also the the no communication, that's also not it's gonna create more attorney fees too. So any decision that you're not making that's gonna be part of the solution versus a problem, you're just gonna spend more on attorney fees and you're gonna delay a resolution. Chris (52:27) Yeah, right. I understand people get into stuff and I better just sort of shake my head and be like, Man, like, you know you're you're you're you're calling your lawyer's office to write a letter about a pickup bus state scheduling it in eight instead of nine to their lawyer, to the lawyer, to their ex to your ex to the lawyer, to your lawyer to me, and then finally to you to figure figure out a bus stop time. Chelsea Gajewski (52:54) Yeah. John (52:55) It's like War of the Roses. There's a nineteen ninety movie called War of the Roses. I don't know if you've ever seen that or there was even a novel about it, but Chris (53:06) But it that gets bad. And that's not an exaggeration of what I just said. You know, what do you guys do, Chelsea, as a as a a lawyer yourself or by by by Sonoma practice is when litigation doesn't happen, it can get nasty. It can get cray cray, right? How do you guys how do you de escalate that? How do you deal with when people are like, you know, Orla Roses, John's saying, man, they are crumping at each other. John (53:08) Yeah. Yeah. Very nasty. Chelsea Gajewski (53:32) That's where I feel like giving options helps people. It's okay. We can respond to this letter where here's where I think it's gonna get you. Nowhere. we could just answer the question that needs to be answered, aka this is where I think the bus stop is. Like have a great weekend. Period, end of sentence. Or we can him back with like 10 different things because okay, well, he's bothering you about the bus stop. I know he hasn't answered you about the allergy medicine or the ADHD medicine. So we could, you know, let's focus on that. but it's giving options and it's showing them what it's probably gonna cost and what it's gonna get them because they're all about results, right? Yeah. Chris (54:11) Yeah. Yeah, it's gosh, I I I don't even want to talk we'll talk more about that maybe next week the guys will, you know, in divorce because I I just If you're listening to the show is more about considering separation and considering divorce, don't let yourself get to that point. Whatever your spouse is doing, just just just don't get into the overly fearful, because that's what it is overly hurt, overly resentful, angry person. It y you will you will be wrecking your own mental health when you do that. What say you, Chelsea? Chelsea Gajewski (54:50) one hundred percent. Yeah, and it's just then it's deteriorating your co-parenting relationship. Then it's gonna create more toxicity if you guys have to separate finances or your estate's really complicated, or if there's a business involved. And so I guess, you know, I think I c I a question to you guys in therapy when these people are considering separation Is your ad like I know you're pro reconciliation, right? But obviously if you have two people or one person in front of you and you just know it's time, what is the advice you give them? Is it go speak to an attorney? Is it, hey, here are the best ways that you can manage your emotions during this period of time? Chris (55:32) John, wait a minute. Aren't we supposed to her ask her questions? What's what what's happening here? No, it's a wonderful question. And I and I I think there's a lot to do with that, Chelsea. Thank you for asking. I mean, I honestly one of the things that I usually say with people, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, this is an opportunity to correct my logic, but what I understand is I mean, North Carolina, John. North Carolina, you know, you you can you can write your your terms down on a napkin. I mean Chelsea Gajewski (55:35) Well now I'm curious. John (55:35) Yeah, you could do it. Well, I'll correct you. Chris (56:00) You know, y you get a piece of paper out and you jot some stuff down and and and sign it. I mean, you want to get it notarized maybe, but you know, you people don't think realize that they can do that. And so when when somebody's kind of bringing this in, like I I will talk to people about I can see your spouse and you if you both agree you're divorcing. Like we do counseling that way, you know, and we we try to give a plan in place, you know, for for things to think about and how to manage this. And my suggestion is to start out without lawyers. I mean, use lawyers, I advocate if you Don't feel like the emotions are blocking you too much. But if you can, let's try. Let's set up how you do conflict. Because you know what, therapeutically, if you're gonna do that during separation, you're gonna deal with conflict with your boss in the same way. You're gonna deal with that in your next marriage by the way probably as well, right? So that's that's some of what I'm thinking. Does that answer your question? Chelsea Gajewski (56:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I think that's great. except for the napkin, obviously, because my my point of view is more c clarity is key and the more they're clear on what it is they're agreeing to, the less conflicts they'll have. so it's so funny that one of my first, you know, recommendations is go see a therapist and you're like, I think you should wait on a lawyer. But that makes sense. I mean, I'm just so knowledge is power. Chris (56:56) Yeah. John (57:01) Yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (57:18) So before anybody even has a conversation with their spouse, and of course I always say, yes, you North Carolina gives you the ability to agree to whatever you want, basically. And it can go into a, you know, an agreement and you guys never even have to see a judge. but I think understanding what that could look like is gonna be important. John (57:39) I just see this big ball of yarn so much. I don't see it being as simple as as that where we'll both come in and and Chris, I I I it's been in the great majority of cases that I have had is one person comes in and says, I don't want her to divorce me, or I don't want him to divorce me. I I want to s keep the family together and and this is what's going on and and Then there's other cases where I have a client who who won't go to the lawyer and to get a lawyer to protect his interest or her interest and and and so they may risk losing not f you know I I I custody of their kids or just part not get as good of custody as they could possibly get. Chris (58:20) Right. Right, John. Can I jump on that as well? Because Chelsea, yeah, yeah, it it's it's interesting. I don't want to give the impression of don't go to a lawyer. That's not at all and that's not what I meant to convey. I say if you can work it out on your own and have your own agreements without going to a lawyer, fantastic. That's what you need to do. But to your point, John, I've I've absolutely referred and and urged people like strongly, go get your rights and your law checked out, man, or ma'am, because that may hurt. John (58:38) Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Chris and I are are you are are like ninety five percent in Zapotico. It's just that there's you know, we we look at yeah, a lot of times, but we yeah. Chris (59:11) A lot of times, a lot of times. And so So yeah, we refer both ways, my dear. Trust me. John (59:17) Uh-huh. Chelsea Gajewski (59:18) Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause I just think clarity, you know, you don't want them to come back in a year and be like, I don't even know what that says or, you know, now I'm remarried and and I my spouse can't hang out with my kid. Like it's just they gotta you sometimes it's hard to see outside of the moment too, and that's why having a third person is gonna be helpful to them, whether it's a therapist or an attorney, seeing what the future could look like. 'Cause almost everybody I'm never getting me remarried. Right. John (59:43) A non anxious presence. Yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (59:46) Right. There's so many people. I'm never gonna get remarried a year later. Can we do a prenob? I'm like, yes, congratulations. Yeah. Chris (59:53) Yeah. Right. For for sure. Listen, we're our time is getting short and I I I want to do a section, we do a segment towards the end of the show, Chelsea, where we speak directly as though you know the listener is is listening to us and we ask a practical question. John and I are gonna take turns doing that as though we can't deliver therapy through a screen. You know, we we ask the listener a a practical question and I think for you, I wanna invite you to play along if you might. So you can think about it for a minute, right? Like if you could if you could put out there a question for somebody or what you want them to think about in this tough time, you know, and you can you can talk to you. So you you ready for this, John? You wanna go first? You want him what you don't? Chelsea Gajewski (1:00:24) Okay. Okay. John (1:00:37) Yeah. Well, I I'm gonna look at this. I I I think I'm gonna ask you if if you have both of you consider that that you know these reasons why and have identified those reasons why you have chosen to separate or what is what are the compelling reasons and even make a list pro and con about that list and and the more you clarify, the more you you get down to the nitty gritty. And you say and get it granular, you're going to be able to line out and see this is an area that's really affecting me or w something that we have not considered. You know, what what would separation do? And I I don't I'm a big thing on terms of of kids, but also what would it do for our finances? What would it do for all these things? And have we considered them? Chris (1:01:44) Okay, here's my practical question, John. To you, the listener, you know, if I'm sitting with you in the office and we're talking about this, I I might like to ask you if you andor if either you or your spouse have discussed what success actually is. What what does successful separation actually look like? You know, there's a lot of unknowns about this. There's a lot of scary things, kind of like a lawyer whispered in our ear a little while. So you, ma'am, like. Do you or your husband, you sir, do you or your husband really know what separation success looks like? If you talk about that, you might have a whole lot more clarity. So, Miss Chelsea, do you have a question or a statement to that the listener? What is your practical question? Chelsea Gajewski (1:02:28) I do. My practical question is when considering separation in the kiddos, is your spouse a good parent? Are they a good parent? They may not be the best spouse, they may not be the best accountant, but are they a good parent to your child? I think that's a major question people need to ask themselves and take, just simplify it. Chris (1:02:54) Good, yeah. Yeah. Love that. Good stuff. John (1:02:56) I think we sh just need to get her license. Chris (1:02:59) I know. She was wanted to be a social worker. She could've done it, John. I agree. We can help you with that, man. Let's Chelsea Gajewski (1:03:04) No, I got two good ones right here. We're we don't need another. Chris (1:03:09) Dang, she sounds determined to be in the short term of it. Anyway, so we usually do a little bit of a a shrink wrap up. I I think Neil, I'm I'm gonna call it on this week. I am gonna spare you, John. Here's the reason why. Kelsey didn't and get a ch Kelsey nor Victoria didn't really get a chance to to to be a part of it. So it would give us an unfair advantage, John. If they if if we cancel, we cancel and we can go on. But gives us more time to do kind of another segment. And yeah, Neil Neil, w whatever you have thoughts, John (1:03:18) You're gonna spare me, aren't you? Neil (1:03:24) Yeah. John (1:03:32) Yes. That's right. Chris (1:03:39) You have an opportunity or you've been listening. do you got any thoughts for Chelsea? Neil (1:03:45) I think that last statement's super important. My parents got divorced when I was like five and I knew that both my parents did a great job with me as a parent. Now I know that my parents did not need to be together and I understood that. And I think that's I think it's very critical when it comes to the if you're thinking about separating, you're thinking about how do you become a better person for your kids. Might not, you know, and maybe being away from that person your spouse is important. But I think that goes back to you still brought these kids into the world, you have to make sure you take care of them. So I think that's a super critical thing 'cause there's a lot of pettiness, there's a lot of vindictiveness, there's a lot of stuff that can come in from these emotions. And I think that's really critical. I think that's something that people have to think about when they get separated, especially bringing kids when kids are involved in the whole situation. Chelsea Gajewski (1:04:31) Well, kudos to your parents. Chris (1:04:36) He came out okay. I mean I still got some currents about the young man. John (1:04:36) I always say Chelsea Gajewski (1:04:37) Well it's hard, but for him to even be able to realize like, hey, they're both good parents, just not great together. I mean, that's super self aware and it must have been a credit to what however they communicated with you or shared time with you or spoke about spoke about one another. Chris (1:04:44) Right. Neil (1:04:53) It wasn't until I was eighteen that the nastiness came out. It's like, Did you know your mom did this and your dad did this? I'm like, Well, okay. at least they wait till I was an adult. Chelsea Gajewski (1:04:56) there you go. Okay. Right, and that part is you're so far removed. It's like if the parents are gonna be okay, the kid's gonna be okay. Yeah. John (1:05:03) Shanghai. Neil (1:05:05) Mm-hmm. Chris (1:05:09) I guess if I'm doing a little bit of a shrink wrap-up without being graded by Neil, I'm gonna say, like, look, you know, this is this is a major crossroads. th this is this is kind of a why in the road. It's you know, meeting Jesus kind of thing. It it's right now the buck stops with with what's happening. That this is this is a big life change and and I hope that we've given a little bit of idea about like get clarity, have a purpose. Ask what's the goal for a success in this. What are we really what are we really wanting? How do you ground your emotions? I mean, there's a lot of things going on in this crossroads, Chelsea, and I appreciate that there's people that are caring like you out there to, you know, to be able to help them through it. Chelsea Gajewski (1:05:52) I appreciate that. Yeah, I love my job. Yeah. John (1:05:53) Can I ask you a question b and that is is that I I know we don't want to get too many people involved in this, but what would you say and give an advice to someone's family that is undergoing in either side or both sides of the families that are and friends in order to help have a of the best resolution that you could possibly have? What would what Would your advice be on that? Chelsea Gajewski (1:06:25) Don't add fuel to the fire. Be solution oriented. Be solution oriented. Chris (1:06:28) Mm. John (1:06:32) Okay, good. Good. She should have been a therapist. She should have been a therapist. Chris (1:06:36) Yeah. Chelsea Gajewski (1:06:39) I have little Noeya, you guys ever do like the strength finders test? I think I told you this to Chris. It's like a Meyer Briggs. Well empathy is like very last John (1:06:43) Yeah. Yeah. Chris (1:06:44) I didn't know John (1:06:48) Yeah, well you should yeah, you would have been a great counselor as opposed to a social worker. So that's 'cause we're that's ours. Chelsea Gajewski (1:06:53) Okay. Well yeah, empathy is like my last one. I have little to no empathy. But Caroline, who you guys are gonna do the next podcast with, spews empathy. So we work very well together. We divide and conquer certain clients. Chris (1:07:07) Then next week you will definitely get a little bit more of the vibe that I got from Sodomalal. Maybe it's not Chelsea, it will be everybody else there. Cause there's empathy oozing from what my fa fe feeling and oppression is. And I will say from you too, I'm I'm I'm poking at you, you know, because this is tough and and you you do clearly seem to have some some some spice to get right into, you know, what is the bottom line that we need to think think about. Chelsea Gajewski (1:07:15) Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. John (1:07:23) Yeah. No, no. She does the solution focus really well. Chris (1:07:35) But you also are adding so much support to your people. I can just hear that. Chelsea Gajewski (1:07:38) Thank you, thank you. I try and I appreciate that. Chris (1:07:42) John, you were trying to say something when I there. John (1:07:45) No, no, I got my point across and thank thank ya. Chris (1:07:49) All right, well we are wrapping up with Thur Therapiciz Chelsea. Again, Sodoma Lal. how do they find you? Chelsea Gajewski (1:07:56) Sodoma Law dot com or seven zero four four four two zero zero zero zero. Chris (1:08:02) You know, the idea is separating to be more peaceful, separating to have intentionality and understanding. And it doesn't have to end at separation. It doesn't have to end in these considerations that you're having. we're gonna have more conversations about this. This is a tough time. stick with it. Just like I ended my marriage book and I talked about it at the show last week, I'm gonna say that the phrase is a very important one to me. I explained it last week. I'll just say you can do it. John (1:08:03) Repeat it again, please. Chris (1:08:33) Like those three simple words, this is something that you will survive. You can do this. Closing comment, guys. John (1:08:39) Can do this. Chelsea Gajewski (1:08:41) No, this was great. Thank you so much. I'm so appreciative. John (1:08:43) Thank you. Chris (1:08:46) Yeah, good stuff. All right, Neil, I guess you could count down to take us out of here and we'll guys see you guys next week. more I think we're supposed to have Kelsey kinda hitting up with us and your counterpart, Carolyn. What's that, John Neil? Ka I what did I just my brain's tired. It's seven thirty. Chelsea, thank you so much for being with us. Neil (1:08:57) No the other one. Kelsey's this one. Chelsea Gajewski (1:09:02) Chelsea. That's it. Yes. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure. Chris (1:09:10) All right, take care, be well, and we'll see you next week. Chelsea Gajewski (1:09:12) Thank you.