In Episode 364 of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we confront a difficult but necessary truth: sometimes, ending a marriage is the healthiest choice for everyone involved. Joined by family lawyer Caroline, we bridge the legal and therapeutic worlds to explore how couples can navigate separation without destroying their family’s well-being. From managing anger during legal proceedings and protecting children from loyalty conflicts to reframing divorce as a path toward individual recovery and collaborative co-parenting, this episode provides a compassionate blueprint for a “healthy divorce.” Tune in to discover practical ways to separate emotion from decision-making, shield your kids from adult conflict, and ultimately move past survival toward true healing and growth.
Tune in to see How to End a Marriage Without Destroying a Family Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- How do you know when you’ve truly done everything you reasonably could to save a marriage?
- If divorce is the healthiest decision, how can you reduce unnecessary harm to everyone involved?
- What does a “healthy divorce” actually look like?
Links referenced during the show:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2300522
https://www.gottman.com/blog/how-we-used-the-aftermath-of-a-fight-to-repair-our-relationship/
Chapter 9 | Focus on your issues and take action on those.
Don’t spend divorce trying to change your former spouse.
Focus on your own growth.
Chapter 37 | Marriage is the highest form of friendship.
Even if friendship cannot continue…
Respect often can.
Chapter 40 | Validating your partner’s emotion or life experience builds trust.
Validation still matters during separation.
Chapter 1.11 | Accepting things is a part of your emotional growth.
Acceptance allows healing to begin.
Chapter 1.22 | Grief…
Divorce includes grief.
Even when it is the right decision.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
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Episode #364 Transcription
Caroline Strauss (00:04.562) am I supposed to s say this is Caroline? Neil (00:08.117) No, go, Casey, go. Kasie (00:10.555) Okay, sorry. Hello and welcome to Through a Therapist's Eyes. This is Casey Morgan and you may be tuning in from wherever you're getting this information on 716 2026. It's roughly about 625 here. and we are excited for today's show. excited with an asterisk because it is gonna be a little bit of a heavier topic, but I'm glad to take it from where we left off last time and kind of move it through. I am not Chris Gazdick, as you can imagine. I am Casey that regularly does the show. And so I'm gonna try to fill in for him as best as possible to kind of keep things moving. But welcome. We are so glad that you're here. Thank you for all those who have liked and subscribed to our channel. If you haven't yet, now is a great opportunity to do that. To hit the subscribe button, hit that little bell so that you get all the updates and all the snippets from the show. and if you can leave us a review. We like a five-star review. I'm have no shame in saying that, mostly. Because it bumps us up when people are searching for mental health information on the YouTube and other various platforms. And we like to say around here that let's endeavor to figure this out together. And so without further ado, this is through a therapist's eyes. I am so excited for today's show. We have with us a pretty esteemed guest. And I'm going to say esteemed because when I was reading through her bio and when I was looking up information. About her law practice. I think she is a very esteemed guest. So Miss Caroline Strauss is with us. Will you please just introduce yourself and then I'll read your bio. Caroline Strauss (01:59.289) Yeah, I'm Caroline Strauss. I'm an attorney at Sedoma Law Belmont, my where I practice primarily family law. And I'm happy to be here. Kasie (02:06.458) Perfect. Yeah, so here's a little background information about Caroline. our our guest today is Caroline Strauss. She's with Sedoma Law. She saw before in Belmont. She has 16 years of legal experience in a truly unique perspective to that role. She's a graduate of Clemson University and the University of South Carolina School of Law, which I won't hold that against you because I went to the real Carolina in North Carolina, the Tar Hills. but that's okay. Caroline Strauss (02:35.578) Well, I grew up I grew up a Carolina fan, so it's okay. Yeah. Kasie (02:39.934) okay. But the Gamecocks are cool. Like the I actually know the defensive backs coach for the Gamecocks, Clayton White. So anyway, she's built her practice around a client-focused, client-focused holistic approach, guiding families through one of life's most challenging events. And we're gonna talk about that event today and those transitions. And she does that with compassion and care. She's a certified parenting coordinator. She brings specialized expertise in helping families find their footing. Caroline Strauss (02:45.774) Kasie (03:09.668) it matters most. But perhaps what sets her apart most is that she's not just an attorney, she's also a mom, a mother to an 11-year-old boy, a nine-year-old girl, and a very, very important Dodson named Gilbert. She took time away from the practice to be a stay-at-home mom and she'll, you know, tell you more about that experience and how that only made her a better lawyer. and a more empathetic advocate for all the clients that she sees. So welcome, Caroline. We are so glad to have you as part of the show today. Caroline Strauss (03:41.578) Yeah, and I'm happy to be here to talk about this important topic. Kasie (03:46.041) Yeah, so it is no stranger to our audience that I am a divorcee myself. so this is a topic that I think can be near and dear to a lot of people. however, I also should say as a caveat on the show that I am a huge marriage advocate. I believe in marriage, I love the institution of marriage, and I think it's an important structure of our society today. this is not the delivery of therapy services, however. I am a licensed clinician. I'm ready to kind of field this topic with an attorney. So it's going to be a cool show. as always, we kind of start off by just three reflective questions that we like to cover throughout the content of the show. And those questions today are this: How do you know when you're truly done? We've truly done everything that you reasonably could do to save a marriage. the second question: if divorce is the healthiest decision, how can you reduce unnecessary harm to everyone involved? And the last question that we'll kind of talk through today is what does a healthy divorce actually mean? Look like. That sounds counterintuitive, but there are times that divorce can be the healthiest choice for a couple. and I think barring all circumstances and thinking through reasonable options first is really important. So this is a really important statement that sometimes divorce can be the healthiest choice. As a therapist, as an attorney, what say you to this? Like what what do you kind of gain from that sentiment that sometimes divorce is a healthy choice? Caroline Strauss (05:23.726) Well, it may not feel healthy at the point at that point, right? But down the road I can promise you that it's my goal to make you feel healthy and whole again, right? And so sometimes it's the healthiest choice when everything else in your life has become unhealthy. And you you've utilized all those tools in your toolbox to try and save the marriage. Therapy, all of that. Sometimes it just comes to an end. and it's better for you and for your children. that you and your spouse part ways and figure out a path forward and what your new family unit looks like. So that's why I think it's an important and interesting comment. Kasie (06:10.863) Yeah. You know, as a therapist, I would say I don't believe, and maybe you can even chime in on this too, but it is not my belief that people get married with the idea of that they're going to get divorced. I would say that's a pretty fair statement. Like that's not the point why any of us would choose to commit to one person and be with that person. So I don't think any of us really want an unnecessary divorce. I don't think either partner, right? please go ahead. Caroline Strauss (06:42.521) Right. I mean that's why people sorry. That's why people people are so scared of prenuptial agreements, right? Because they're not going into their marriage planning for that marriage to break up, right? And so I I don't think that's anybody's plan, going into a marriage. Kasie (07:00.142) Yeah, because it it does. It can create unnecessary suffering at certain terms. It can it can, you know, when we have kids involved, that's a hut another layer to that. And and sometimes there are things that if we remained married, it actually creates a a greater harm than separating. And that's kind of what we're gonna gear today's show towards. So we're in agreement, nobody wants an unnecessary divorce, but there are elements that may be present. So As a therapist, if a couple is in my office and they are discussing elements of chronic emotional abuse, ongoing betrayal that has no end in sight, like the person is not willing to give up an extramarital partner, addiction without a plan forward, meaning just untreated addiction that continues to cause harm to the family, any type of coercive behavior, coercive control, where Where a person is not seeking to you know get help with that, or just complete relational disengagement, meaning emotionally abandoning your partner on the a complete withdrawal of affection. We're not taking care of each other, we're literally hurting each other at every turn. in every way possible. That's generally kind of the rules of thumb from the therapy side that we see that it's kind of a no-go's situation. what do you think about that, hearing that as an attorney? Caroline Strauss (08:31.759) Hearing that, that sounds about like a laundry list of the reasons that people come into our office, right? You can categorize each person that comes into our office probably in one of those categories that you outlined right there. So I would say, yeah, I mean, you're seeing it on the front side and I'm seeing it on the back side, but the reasons are the same. Kasie (08:55.16) Right, and and our goal As a therapist is not necessarily to just save every marriage that walks through the door. And I think that that's a a misnomer for some people when they come to the office because they're like, hey, like we're here for therapy. You can really save our marriage. that's not what we do. We're not miracle workers, you know, we're not gonna be able to save every relationship. What we can do is talk about things in a healthy way and come. Caroline Strauss (09:13.039) Mm-hmm. Kasie (09:27.914) up with what is the most healthy pattern that we can get to in this relationship, whether you guys stay married or not. And it sounds like you do similar things even from like a division of assets perspective and things like that. Would you say that that's kind of fair to kind of say there? Caroline Strauss (09:45.721) Right. Yeah, I mean I I'm trying to make the process on my end of things as healthy for my client as you are on the back I mean on the other side of things, right? and there are a variety of ways that we can do that in family law these days. you know, mindsets have changed. for instance, I'm I'm certified in what's called collaborative family law. and that collaborative family law is an area of practice that kind of takes into consideration the whole unit as a family and everybody sits down together and really tries to hammer out what best looks what looks best for the future of this family unit. And the way that's done is we agree to not go to litigation and we agree to employ different sorts of experts to help us in this process, right? One of those being a therapist, right? And and we can have a child expert that, you know, sits with the child and makes recommendations to the parents. Kasie (10:39.726) Yeah. Caroline Strauss (10:47.193) to form a healthy path forward for the children. Kasie (10:50.798) Yeah, so it sounds like our shared goal here is just helping the overall family become healthier. And sometimes that means staying together and working through things. And sometimes that means moving forward with a a more permanent thing like a divorce or beyond a separation, things like that. so great. So yeah, go ahead. Caroline Strauss (11:12.139) And we're here to s and we're here to support you in in whatever you choose, right? You may just be coming to us for information, right? But like you said, you you love you're divorced, but you love a marriage, right? I I am going to encourage the marriage if it's healthy and functioning on my end of things. and I will encourage that client or potential client to speak with a therapist. I'm not gonna stand in the way of what you feel your next steps are in this journey. Kasie (11:42.031) Yeah. A and and I find myself to be very fortunate. I still have a great Co-parenting relationship with the father of my children, even though we're divorced. And we actually had a very amicable, non-contested divorce. So I'm even kind of foreign to the concept of a litigated divorce or something that becomes much bigger than that because we were both emotionally healthy, kind of coming into the situation that took place. So can you kind of talk us through a little bit on like if we come to the office and Caroline Strauss (11:58.065) Yeah. Kasie (12:17.746) And we've kind of done the prerequisites to some of this stuff. Like we've met together and we're talking about how myself and my partner might be at the precipice of getting divorced. What does that kind of look like from where your call your office kind of takes it from that point and takes it through a situation? Caroline Strauss (12:38.957) Right. So you would come in for an initial consultation where you'd sit with me for about an hour and we'd talk about what's going on in your life. And from that, from my legal perspective, and you know, adding in your personal experience, right, we're gonna come up with a plan for next steps. Okay. and depending on you know how the other side is acting, usually Color is my decision on how to how to move forward and and what path I'm gonna recommend that you take. However, I'm always gonna recommend that you try to do it the way you did it, in an amicable way, because it's healthier and it's much less expensive and it will lay a foundation for a better future for you and your kids. And so a lot of times when I see Cases go to litigation, which I'm happy to do. I'm in court all the time, right? But it's come one of the parties has an unhealthy mindset, right? They're angry, they're jealous, you know, all of those things play into when that decision is made to go to litigation. Kasie (13:54.617) Yeah, we've often talked on the show, especially here recently, about trying to be emotionally regulated when you make some of these bigger decisions. And when you're telling me things like people sometimes come in and they're angry and jealous, we've talked about before how that's often a secondary or protective emotion, and how that initial emotion really is that hurt that has created situations in the relationship to where our response then becomes like anger, jealous, and behavioral things. Caroline Strauss (14:13.999) Mm-hmm. Kasie (14:28.69) As opposed to getting more in touch with those emotional things. So it sounds like from what you're saying, if you really want an emotionally healthy divorce, right? The first thing is to kind of get yourself in check a little bit, right? Like what are you actually feeling versus what you're projecting out there? Because that can make a difference in how this kind of unfolds. Caroline Strauss (14:55.653) Well, and I think it's different for whatever in end of the the equation you're on, right? you know, some people come into the office very prepared and emotionally regulated, and some people come obviously, I mean, and you know, justifiably very hurt and upset and crying. And I'm here to help you through that. and my job is to help you see logically moving forward, what different paths, you know, collaboration or litigation, you know, help you guide your decisions so that you can become the healthiest person that you can be. And oftentimes I'm going to the first thing I'm gonna say is you need to get a therapist, right? And so I I'm not a therapist. and so we like to involve other professionals that can help that person that comes in with those blinding emotions. kind of regulate them and and see through them in a logical way. Kasie (15:59.417) Yeah, because you know, I I think that from what I have seen in our practice and things like that, I I think that we often think of divorce attorneys as what's portrayed on TV or even some of those salacious ads that we see or hear on the radio. That's basically like, if you want to nail this person, talk to this person. And we're sharks. We're gonna go after, you know, the most money for you, or you want full custody of your children, great. Like, let's do that. And and really, that's not realistically how the legal system works and not how life really works, correct? Caroline Strauss (16:36.411) What did Yeah, I mean my job when a person comes into the office with these, you know, preconceived notions about what this divorce is gonna look like, it's gonna look like what's on TV, right? I will immediately calm that down a little bit, right? and provide practical advice on what what expectations should be set in terms of custody, for instance. Kasie (16:54.112) Yeah. Caroline Strauss (17:03.279) A lot of people come in saying they want full custody. The presumption, though not legal presumption, is 50-50 custody these days, unless it's logistically impossible, or someone has, you know, like a substance abuse problem or or things like that, that would affect their ability to care for the child. and so a lot of what I do in the beginning part of my representation is is setting expectations. and Kasie (17:30.255) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (17:33.517) I think that provides a better foundation for the the attorney client relationship moving forward because there aren't I'm not placating what they think might be reality but really isn't reality. Kasie (17:49.081) Yeah, so it sounds like could to kind of begin the healthiest track if divorce is going to be the option here or the final decision, the healthiest track would be trying to get emotionally regulated, right? And then balancing out reality versus expectations and having a consensus on this is kind of the way things are going to operate and work. Caroline Strauss (18:04.987) Mm-hmm. Kasie (18:17.134) that just because you're hurt, just because the other person may have been the one to do something to create the situation where divorce is now gonna be the option doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna go in one direction and be cut and dry, like you get the kids, you get the house, you know, all of those things. Caroline Strauss (18:27.866) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (18:38.957) Yeah, I mean if we can get to a place where we're thinking about not the past but what the future looks like, that's an amazing part of my job, right? is seeing that getting over the hump of the emotional regulation that you're talking about. Kasie (18:49.295) Yeah. Kasie (18:55.438) Yeah. And I and I think from a therapist's point of view, you know, it it really is about that, even when we're trying to work on saving or salvaging the marriage as opposed to leading to ultimately divorce, is that we we have to acknowledge that the past happened, right? But then move forward from that. in my practice, I always tell the story of Fernando Cortez where he like came to this island. This is a very rudimentary version of history, but Caroline Strauss (19:13.819) Mm-hmm. Kasie (19:25.582) He came to this island and they were up against an opposition on the island that he looked at his men on the ship and he said, Hey, listen, if we go and encounter these people on this island, you know, there's no turning back, or we can stay on the ship and sail away. And they elected to go. And so he announces to the group, burn the ships. Right. And so I talk about that a lot. Caroline Strauss (19:42.555) Mm-hmm. Kasie (19:49.961) in my practice that in order for us to move forward in a healthy way, we have to focus on burning the ships. Because if we if we stay one foot on the boat and one foot on the island, we're sunk. You know, like we're we're dead in the water. So we can't do that and move forward. And so if we're going to do this in a healthy way, we have to either be willing to stay on the ship and sail away or burn the ships and move forward on but when that point comes, it sounds like the most emotionally healthy way that you see from your perspective is that when we make the decision that divorce is going to be the option, that we really get realistic about goals and expectations for the future, not how do we institute consequences or punishments for things in the past that have happened to us. Caroline Strauss (20:43.525) Right, because what's that's that's gonna elicit a response from the other side, right? And that's going to cause you know, gloves off fight. that's gonna cost you emotionally and financially. Kasie (20:48.771) Yeah. Kasie (20:58.702) Yeah, is that pretty much one of the most common mistakes that people make is just to kind of go for the jugular? Or what what do you find some of the common mistakes are that people make when they're attempting to have a healthy divorce, but it goes in a different direction? Caroline Strauss (21:13.847) you go go for the jugular, you involve the children in the situation. let's see. you do it without a lot of thought. So what I mean by that is like I have a client that her husband left in the middle of the night. Okay. Without telling her or giving her any heads up. And so you can imagine the emotional upheaval that that caused because it was a complete, you know, unknown. And so that took her a lot longer to get through that emotional process, right? because the person that was leaving didn't make the leaving known in a healthy way. And you know, there are a variety of tools that people can, you know, utilize to to leave in a healthy way if you're the one that's that's you know making that choice. You can use a therapist to facilitate that conversation. you can have an honest conversation with your spouse before it happens. Talk about what it's gonna look like. That makes things a lot easier after the separation happens. And you know, most people don't think it, but we can send letters or we can help in that process. I'm gonna I am happy to send a letter or reach out to the other side and say, we want to make this as amicable as possible. and so I'm not leading with, you know, we're going we're going to court and I'm gonna take you for all you're worth, because that's just going to spiral into an uncontrollable tornado of hurt money spent and all of those things. Kasie (23:04.357) Yeah, could conversely, do you also find people that the other person has loggered up and they weren't anticipating that and so now they're really afraid and things like that. How do you deal with that when that person comes into the office? Caroline Strauss (23:17.829) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (23:23.663) Depending on who the lawyer is, a lot of times, nine times out of ten, I have pretty good relationships with a lot of the lawyers and the Gaston and Mecklenburg County Bar. And so sometimes I will tell them and to hopefully, you know, put their fears aside. that I have a really good w working relationship with this lawyer. And it's not a scary thing. It's actually a benefit because it's going to help your process move, you know, in a much more efficient and stable process to get to that finish line. now if it's the scary lawyer that that is unnecessarily you know acrimonious and does what you see on TV, then you know Obviously there's gonna have to be some defenses put up and but I'm an attorney with sixteen years of experience. I know how to put those defenses up. and I will often tell them that it's a lot more bark than bite because a lot of those attorneys that bark a lot at the beginning end up settling in the end. So Kasie (24:27.878) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I think especially from what what I've noticed in my office too, working with the couples who are divorcing, I think that after the the bark part gets done, right, that le more reasonable heads can, you know, arise from that. And then when the reality sets in that some of the things that people are wanting to go after is not even legally possible or beneficial, or when it comes to to you have to find like a medical professional, a mental health professional to prove some of this stuff that you're claiming and that's not gonna be a possibility. That kind of Caroline Strauss (25:16.089) Right. And sometimes it it takes a first appearance in court. It takes the f one time to walk into a courthouse and have like a temporary child custody hearing or a temporary spousal support hearing for that client to recognize that this is not really great. This is someone up on the bench who's never met me or my family and is really just seeing the tip of the iceberg. They're not seeing all that's below. I as an attorney am hamstrung by the rules of evidence. I can't, you know, obviously bring certain things in. Kasie (25:46.309) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (25:50.56) because they're prohibited, because they're not reliable evidence. And so sometimes it takes that first experience when you're sitting on the stand and you're looking out and there's a bunch of strangers in the in the audience to to realize that maybe, maybe, just maybe, I don't want this judge making a decision for my family. I want to make those decisions. And and so, you know, that might be, you know, where people gain that emotional clarity. it it's just different for everybody. Kasie (26:23.28) Sure. And so if people do start spiraling or become angry or aggressive during these situations, does that sometimes can that have an impact on legal decisions that are made sometimes? Caroline Strauss (26:39.131) So are you talking about my client or the client on the other side? Or the Kasie (26:42.638) Well I well, I guess either, right? Like I guess that I mean, I I w I it sounds like from what you're saying, you typically have a good working rapport with your clients to where that's not necessarily going to come to fruition a whole lot. Caroline Strauss (26:58.395) Yeah. Kasie (26:58.414) But on the other side, you know, if we're in court and there's a a lot of anger being shown or the other person is cursing or like just doing a lot of things that would be like a spiraling behavior or doing harassing things to another person, even outside of court, can that creep its way into court and really affect the process? Caroline Strauss (27:20.643) yeah. I mean it it it prolongs court, right? Because, you know ha n you know, the biggest part of how your divorce is gonna go is how the other person is reacting, right? And so if that person is not coming to the table to negotiate, if that person's throwing, you know, insults and legal accusations across across the the table, then it's certainly gonna creep into court and it's gonna cause more court. And so if I'm dealing with that angry person on my side, you know, my number one trait is empathy, right? I'm going to empathize with them first. but I'm gonna tell them, you know, what the realities of this mindset are are going to, you know, what it's gonna cause. so my goal is to nip that in the bud before it occurs in the courtroom, right? of course, of course, if there are there are you know safety issues, domestic violence issues, all of those things, I'm obviously going to advocate for my clients safety and health and all of those things. But if it's just hurt feelings, I'm gonna try to work them through those emotions with the help of a therapist to make the process a little more healthy. Kasie (28:44.026) Yeah, and I'm glad that you said that and pointed out that if it's an abusive situation, that can really alter even a lot of what we've kind of already talked through already, right? Like because safety is priority, right? So I w I wanna stress that. Carolina did Caroline did a good job of stressing that. But that is something that, you know, through today's discussion, please use that lens. That if in any way you are in an unsafe situation, we are not asking you to Caroline Strauss (28:53.915) Yeah. Right. Kasie (29:14.04) try to, you know, just be this like Susie Sunshine a like mode of amicableness, like get out, do what you can to leave the situation, get the help you need to remain safe. If there are children involved, do what we can to get to keep them safe. We're going to advocate for that. Caroline Strauss (29:24.793) Mm-hmm. Kasie (29:35.705) but outside of that situation, there are a lot of things that I think are very figure outable from what you're saying, that where cooler heads can prevail, even if there is a lot of anger, because you're right, like a lot of people are very valid in the feelings that they are feeling throughout the process of a divorce, even if it's the healthiest divorce, that's still possible that you're very angry, even in a healthy divorce. Yeah. Caroline Strauss (29:35.77) Yep. Caroline Strauss (29:43.203) I mean. Caroline Strauss (30:02.779) Well, it's not a death. It's the death of the dream that we talked about before. You don't go into a marriage thinking that it's going to end, you know? And so Yep. Kasie (30:12.59) Yeah, it's definitely a grieving process, right? It's a process. And you you don't have to be healed completely to get through it, you know, and I think that that's what people think often is that I need to be a hundred percent healed to be able to get through the process of a healthy divorce. And that's not true. I say it often. Yeah. yeah. Sorry, say what you said again. Caroline Strauss (30:36.269) No, you can have supports. Yeah. So I said you can have supports helping you through that process and helping you become healthy parallel to these proceedings that are going on in the legal world. Kasie (30:50.904) Yeah, when it came time for me to move out of my place of residence into another residence during my divorce process, I was completely frozen. Here I am. I'm a therapist, right? I was completely frozen. I had packed all the things, did all the stuff, got it into the garage, rented a truck, but had no plan forward on how I was going to actually move everything and how long it would take me to move by myself and things like that. Caroline Strauss (31:03.119) Mm-hmm. Kasie (31:22.57) And my friends that I confided in that were really close friends, they took took over and set up that process for me and had so many people helping me that it took 22 minutes to get all of my stuff out of that house, which was a godsend because staying there, prolonging the process, would have just continually poured salt into open wounds. So rely on your people. I think that's great advice that part of a healthy divorce is creating a network of support. You know, your therapist can't come move you out of your house. Your attorney can't come move you out of your house. But friends, family, people that you really can rely on, that you trust, that is a great piece of advice that during a healthy divorce, you are going to need that network of support. Caroline Strauss (31:57.082) Yes. Caroline Strauss (32:16.899) And and if you don't necessarily have that network of support in town, let's say you don't have family or or many friends in town because your husband is isolated, husband or wife has isolated you from those people, there are support groups out there. and I would recommend getting, you know, involved in one of those and those people can become your village and help you move out of the house and and do all the things that you need to do and lift you up through the process. Kasie (32:30.394) Mm-hmm. Kasie (32:44.772) Yeah, and and what a beautiful part of the world that we live in, that there are people who are to us complete strangers, but are willing to help and support and be there for you emotionally during one of the most vulnerable times of your life. because it is a grief process. We often default into survival mode where we either fight, flight, or freeze. and some people run away from it, some people freeze during it. Hopefully, we're not. fighting but that could be a possibility as we've already discussed but you need something to help with some of the things the tasks that come along with it because it's overwhelming it's overwhelming Caroline Strauss (33:28.643) Mm-hmm. It's a lot of huge decisions to make. Where am I going to live? Where are my children going to spend the night? How am I going to afford, you know, a new house, my own auto insurance, my own health insurance? It's overwhelming, and you need a team. You need a team that takes care of your mental health. You need a team that c takes care of you legally. You need a team that takes care of you financially. Kasie (33:43.855) Yeah. Kasie (33:55.067) Yeah. Yeah, I I I think that that's one thing that when someone comes to me and says, I really want to leave my husband or I really want to leave my wife and I want to get a divorce, one of the realistic conversations we have are, okay, so what's your plan for how you're gonna support your lifestyle independent at this point? You know, borrowing that it's not an unsafe situation, like we've already talked about, what's the plan here? Because it's one thing to say it out loud, like. Caroline Strauss (34:17.21) Mm-hmm. Kasie (34:26.214) I'm gonna leave and this is like what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get divorced. It's another thing to think that you're immediately gonna be able to move out on your own into another residence and have the financial backing to do so if you're really dependent on the shared income of your household, you know, and what that looks like. So you have to have your ducks in order. Caroline Strauss (34:40.229) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (34:46.213) Yep. Yep. Yeah, I had one recently that I think went really well because all of those ducts were arranged before anybody moved out. And so we're not out there, you know, blind in this new apartment or new house, not knowing how I'm gonna, you know meet my rent the next or pay my utilities, right? it was really a well thought through process. And that's the benefit of collaborative law too. It's like in that situation we we think through all of that. It's not about the fight. It's not about winning. It's about succeeding. Kasie (35:26.884) Yeah. Can you can you tell us a little more about collaborative law? I know that you've referenced it and you talked about it, how it is about succeeding in the end, but what separates that or makes it a little different than, you know, just coming in, obtaining an attorney, and then moving forward to like a litigation process? Caroline Strauss (35:45.752) Right. And so what it looks like is you come in and you and your spouse decide to engage in the collaborative process. Then you're going to sign a collaborative agreement. Okay. And that collaborative agreement is going to say we're we're committed to this process. Here are the rules and guidelines surrounding the process. And by the way, if anybody if anybody decides they want to go to litigation, then you lose the two attorneys that are representing you in the collaborative process. And so what that does is it provides, you know, motivation for those people to engage and not resort to low blows and and fighting and all of that. And then in terms of the actual process, it's a series of meetings. and so it kind of feels kind of like a business business meeting where you sit down and you know there may be a financial meeting there may be a child a meeting about the kids all of that and you involve experts because a lot of times there's just an attorney and an attorney is not an expert in mental health or finances or anything like that. So it really you know you're gonna spend a little more on these experts to come in but in the end you're gonna save. because y you're not in a two years long lawsuit down the road. Kasie (37:14.052) Yeah. so and I know that we're we're kind of seguing here, but you know, we've talked a couple of times about custody and kids being involved and things like that. So it sounds like the collaborative pro approach could be really beneficial, especially if you do have children, because we know as therapists and really as humans that you might be ending your marriage, but you're not ending your responsibility to each other as co parents do the Caroline Strauss (37:33.071) Mm-hmm. Kasie (37:45.202) Yeah. Caroline Strauss (37:46.65) Right. And that's a responsibility that continues for eighteen years, thirty years, forty years. Yeah. yeah, I mean, so there's gonna be weddings, there's gonna be funerals, there's gonna be all these things that that ex spouse is at, and from from a perspective of of that person walking into that situation as a divorcee. Kasie (37:52.368) I was gonna say, Yeah, if that were true, I've got a nineteen year old. Caroline Strauss (38:13.583) You need to be able to deal with that and you need to have the tools to deal with that. And you need to model what the appropriate behavior is to those children when that occurs. You don't have to be chummy, but be respectful and kind and you know, show some courtesy to the other person. Kasie (38:32.453) Yeah, I I know a lot of what we see as therapists is sometimes even if I'm like the most emotionally regulated person during a divorce proceeding, I kind of can become not myself, but my clients can become emotionally immature in those moments, right? We have slip ups, we have times where we just want to cuss the other person out or we just are in a fit of rage and we maybe sent something really snarky by a text message or something like that. So really, you know, our children, they don't necessarily need perfect parents, but we really need to work on our emotional maturity during the situation to be able to model a lot of what you were talking about. And some of the pitfalls that we see are these kind of loyalty conflicts, right? Like if you're not with me, then you're for your father. Or, you know, why don't you decide who you want to live with more and we'll go for that? you know, if I can't handle you here, I'm automatically gonna put push you over to dad's house or or things like that. That we see that. We also see children often being weaponized in the situation, right? Like used as pawns, as they say, and are, you know, talked about even in front of them, about the malleability of, you know, well, you won't get to see the kids if you don't do X, Y, and Z. Or if you go and do that, I'm gonna tell the court so that they don't let you see the kids or whatnot. And and then also we see speaking negatively about the other. Caroline Strauss (39:44.259) Yeah. Caroline Strauss (39:51.803) Mm-hmm. Kasie (40:10.033) person in front of the children and how that impacts actually the child. So all of these things that we're doing, the adults in the situation seem like they're doing it to try to hurt each other. But really the biggest impact that we see is the impact on the actual kids. Caroline Strauss (40:28.761) Yeah, and and I often describe it as it's like the the adults become teenagers again. sometimes during these situations and they don't realize that these little kids are sponges and these little kids are going to, you know, twenty years down the road model their relationships after what happened in their parents' divorce, right? And so we see it all the time, you know. Kasie (40:36.561) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (40:55.299) one kid will be able will be scared to tell one parent that they had fun at dad's house. And that shouldn't be the case, right? We see often, you know, a lot of alienation these days, right? Like you know, alienating one parent from the other parent. I mean one par one the child from the other parent. And so all of these things you know detrimental effects on the children. it can have detrimental effects on the way that a court views you in a child custody hearing. And so what I often say is every communication that you you know send to your co-parent, think it of it in the light if a judge is going to look at it. and help that guide. I mean, this is obviously a sad way to live your life, but think of that as a guide when you're you're typing out your text message or angry email. Kasie (41:41.019) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (41:54.686) we we now in Family Law have a lot of tools to help our clients with that. we have like co-parenting apps where it'll read your message and it will tone it down. So it'll make it less I mean it's AI, right? So Yeah. And a lot some of our orders, you know, our custody orders will say that they have to subscribe to this particular app and they before sending an email. Kasie (42:11.813) Right. That's awesome though. Caroline Strauss (42:23.705) They have to use the tone meter. and custody orders will also say that you're not to, you know, talk disparagingly about the other parent. you know, we try to put build protections in on the backside, right? So those things don't happen, continue to happen. Now on the front side, before we have that custody order in place is a different story. so Kasie (42:25.905) Mm-hmm. Kasie (42:46.705) Sure. Yeah, the number one thing that we often hear kids, especially teenagers, that are in the midst of a divorcing family, is that they feel like they are parenting their parents in the during all of the proceedings, that this person is leaning on them emotionally, this person is asking their advice, this person is telling them things that they absolutely do not need to know about the finances of the family or I would do this, but your dad only gives me s X number of dollars a month. Caroline Strauss (43:10.319) Okay. Caroline Strauss (43:24.047) Right. Kasie (43:25.103) month, you know, and things of this nature, or you need to talk to your dad because he's gonna, you know, take care of your cell phone. All of this stuff becomes big emotional burdens on the kids. And it forces them to try to develop skills that their brains and bodies are not prepared to develop at their developmental age. I often see older siblings that become the secondary parent in the household when they're with the other single parent because they're stepping in to fulfill a role of, you know, you know, sitter and If it's a single mom, the male child is like trying to be a dad and so on and so forth, they get really protective and it really causes a lot of emotional turmoil. Not to say that you can't have a healthy divorce and also need to get therapy for your children because that's you know, those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. In fact, I think it's very healthy that your children have a therapist as your family goes through a divorce, even if they say, I don't need a therapist. Therapist. I find that not to be true later on. but I do think that when we go through the maturation of our feelings throughout the divorce proceedings, we want to be really careful not to involve our children as our therapists. There are paid professionals like myself who are glad to take you on as clients to be able to kind of work through the emotional underpinning of what's happening when you're going through the process. Caroline Strauss (44:39.259) Mm-hmm. Kasie (45:08.403) process but do not put that on your kids. Caroline Strauss (45:11.375) There there are also paid professionals that will help you and your co-parent work together. I I know there is co-parenting therapy. I am a certified parenting coordinator. So what a parenting coordinator is, is that's it's in a high conflict divorce or you you and your spouse can choose to appoint one. And what I do is, you know, encourage you to co-parent healthily. Kasie (45:16.176) Yeah. Caroline Strauss (45:35.03) but in the event that you can't and there's some discrepancy about visitation or who gets what holiday or you know, who makes what's the best decision for Johnny what school should Johnny go to and y'all can't come to an agreement, then I step in as that decision maker. And what that prevents is the vitriol that would result if it wasn't in in place, right, as far as hire attorney A and attorney B and go at it, right? And so the goal there is to to calm down the process and any disagreement before we step foot in that courthouse. Kasie (46:16.432) Yeah, because really we we want to do our best to just make decisions that will still make sense, you know, five years from now, right? Or to really separate our anger from the decision-making process because of the impact that it'll have on all those involved. And we wanna protect our children from adult conflict. They're not equipped to handle these things, right? So trying to do what we can prior to to make it a seamless transition, it seems like that is the kicker here, right? Caroline Strauss (46:49.935) Yeah, and if that involves a therapist talking to the children about w what that separation is gonna look like, great. Please do that, you know? yeah, and continuing those children in therapy throughout the process until they're at a place where they they're comfortable in their new normal. Kasie (47:09.648) Yeah, that's what I often tell people when they come in and they want some co-parenting things to happen. I'm like, we can do that in therapy. There are also coordinators like yourself and resources that are available out there. There's also positive parenting curriculums that are available for free that you can do as a self-paced course to have those resources on board because parenting a kid when there's a two-person household is a lot different when you transition into a single person household. So even though your parenting skills might have looked one way, in this environment, they may shift and change. And so the same things may not apply anymore. And you may need to revamp the way you approach things like discipline or the way that you approach even you know growing up, you know, in a in a family that's divorced and what that looks like. And so there's a lot of information out there that can really do a lot of good for a lot of different people to help you kind of stay on track. Caroline Strauss (48:11.555) And a lot of tools. Kasie (48:12.934) There's a lot of tools, right? And I think people are just don't know about them. So I'm glad we're doing these kind of segments where we're bringing people from the community into through a therapist eyes to talk about the collaborative process because I've had a lot of attorneys reach out to me and serve the families that they're serving as the therapist for those families because it is, it's a collaborative process. The last thing we want is for people to get hurt, you know, emotionally, physically. Caroline Strauss (48:17.488) Mm-hmm. Kasie (48:43.048) You know, spiritually, whatever the case may be, we don't want the after effects of this to be just such a downtrodden process that it doesn't make sense for anyone involved. We want it to make sense and we want there to be the most respectful ending that we can create if possible. Caroline Strauss (49:02.149) So I'm a visual person. And so what I often imagine, like it's not gonna be, you know, roses and and unicorns through the whole thing. It's gonna be hard. you know, it's it's an emotionally trying time. And so what I like to imagine is that, you know, you're on one shore, which is the marriage, and then we're rowing across a stormy sea, and we get to the other side, and you're on secure footing. That's where I want my clients to be. Kasie (49:32.104) Yeah. Yeah, you claim not to be a therapist, but that's a beautiful example sometimes of what therapy actually is, right? Like we we start out there, we get into the thick of it, and then we come out on the other side. And but that's such a hopeful way to look at it. I think that people get bogged down when they think about the middle of the process, right? That stormy sea. Because it looks scary. It feels scary. It feels unknown. It feels desperate. All those words, right? Caroline Strauss (49:39.03) Yeah. Caroline Strauss (49:47.419) Mm-hmm. Kasie (50:04.02) but when we come out of it there's going to be solutions that have occurred things will settle back down and you will get to a new normal right a new normal Caroline Strauss (50:10.959) Mm-hmm. Caroline Strauss (50:16.313) Yep. And and our job is to make that new normal make as much much sense to you as possible and your children. Kasie (50:25.222) Yeah. And so you provide that support through that process. And then I would also say if you're engaging in therapy, don't let therapy end just because your divorce has been finalized. Continue that because that momentum is what the recovery process really is about. You know, having that momentum because when you come out of a relationship that you feel like has failed on a multitude of levels, right? You need that reparative. Caroline Strauss (50:43.642) Yeah. Kasie (50:55.186) work so that if and when you do decide to engage in a new relationship, we're not carrying forward some of the patterns that kind of plague the old relationship. So it's we want that momentum to shift into a place of hope and healing so that you're better prepared to re-engage with life in a different way. Caroline Strauss (51:16.825) Yep. My happiest, you know, part of this job is getting, I think, and Chelsea said it in last podcast, is getting a Christmas card from one of my clients, you know, with their kiddos. Or you know, the other day I had lunch with one of my clients that I represented a couple years ago, and just hearing her talk about How scared she was when she was going through this process and how free she feels now makes it all worth it. Kasie (51:51.303) Yeah, I took a little bit of a hiatus from social media when I was going through the the storm part of my d divorce proceedings. And then I re-emerged on the other side with a whole new blended family, right? Like I got remarried later, you know, things like that. But it's so great because the positive reinforcement from that, not that it needs to come from social media, there's a whole thing about don't get your validity from social media, but when people recognize that you look happier and healthier on Caroline Strauss (52:05.264) Maybe. Kasie (52:21.368) As the situation has unfolded and continued, you know, it there can be a hope of that promise of a future on the other side. There it is a message of hope there because divorce, it's not about surviving, it's about growing, you know, it's about a growth. You know, we think about it as almost like death, we grieve it like death, and it is a death of a marriage, but there is growth that can happen, and you just want to continue that growth. Caroline Strauss (52:36.688) Mm-hmm. Kasie (52:51.472) forward so that you're able to to really be you know the best that you can be given the situation that you're in. Caroline Strauss (52:52.986) Yeah. Caroline Strauss (53:01.957) But that growth will be so much larger and so much more successful if we can get in that headspace we talked to at the beginning of this this episode, right? Separate ourselves from the anger, acknowledge the past, but look towards the future. Kasie (53:11.879) Right. Kasie (53:18.288) Yeah. And and I think that that's where our two journeys kind of really do our best coinciding, right? Is that you want that person to really, you know, get into that headspace. And we talk about it from a perspective of, you know. This is not serving you right now. Like this level is not providing the functioning in your life that you think it's going to or that you want it to. And how do we get there? You know, what's the goal here? What do you want life to look like, you know, three months from now, 10 months from now, a year from now? What do you want it to look like for yourself? Because it sounds like what you're saying and what we're doing are two different things, right? So trying to get into the mindset that's going to to Develop that growth and what that looks like. So, well, thank you so much, Caroline, for coming on the show today. I know we talked through a lot of different things. What is the best way for people to reach you if they have questions on a consult or would like to get more information about maybe entering into a healthy divorce? Caroline Strauss (54:26.307) Yeah, so our website is sadomalall.com. There you can go to the Belmont location and click on there and it has all of our contact information. Our phone number is 704-926-2520. and if you want, call and ask for me and they'll set up a consultation. Kasie (54:47.556) All right. Thank you so much, everyone that's out there listening tonight. Or if you catch this later on a recorded show link, please let us know if you have questions, comments, concerns. We are glad to take all of those and any of those. But we appreciate you joining us. And without further ado, have a wonderful, wonderful evening. Later. Caroline Strauss (55:09.701) Thank you.