In this episode Chris looks at the other side of addiction by talking about the family dynamic is creates and the effect is having on each person. The primary topic that he wants to look at is the change that comes with continual traumatic experience and the shift to a survival mode. This mode is something the becomes engrained in each person and continues with them well after the situation changes.
Tune in to see Families with Addiction, Survival Mode Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Recommended Previous Episodes:
Episode #8 – Substance Abuse and Addiction: What It Is and What It Isn’t: https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/2018/10/10/episode-8-substance-abuse-and-addiction-what-it-is-and-what-it-isnt/
Episode #64 – Addiction and Family Dynamics: https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/2019/11/21/episode-64-addiction-and-family-dynamics/
Shame Sucks – Ep165: https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/2021/11/22/shame-sucks-ep165/
Listen for the following takeaways from the show:
- Chris talks about the primary misconception of Addiction vs Substance Abuse.
- Claudia Black is an expert on addiction and family dynamics. They discuss the sentiment of Don’t Talk, Don’t Trust, and Don’t Feel when talking about those in a family with an addict.
- Codependency can become a survival mechanism. This is covered in Episode 26.
- Survivor Mode is when you deal with abnormal situations quickly and move on.
- Chris talks about some daily behaviors that shows how someone in survival mode operates.
- There are some advantages to being in survival mode.
- How to get out of survival mode and switch to living.
- Adam pointed that that you should start doing the opposite of what Claudia Black mentions: Start Talking, Start Trusting, and Start Feeling.
- When we come from a substance abuse family you try to control way too much of the things that you cannot control.
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Episode #168 Transcription
[00:00:00] Chris Gazdik: Hello. I am Chris Gazdik and we are here with Mr. Adam. Cloninger the cohost. I am a mental health and substance abuse. You have landed on through a therapist size the podcast where we offer personal insights from a therapist in your own home or personal time in your car. So personal insights and what do I say?
So seeing the world through the lens of being aware, it’s not delivery of therapy services. I’ve always liked to say help us out with reviews, five stars on apple, iTunes, and comments. They really help us out a lot. If you listen to us on apple iTunes, you can subscribe to us on Spotify, just kind of as well.
Cause that’s a way to help us out, contact@throughatherapistseyes.com is a way to kind of interact with us and. We got books on there. Neil, we got, you know, different things that are search buttons to kind of look at different cool shows. And I’m in the habit of really thanking you guys for being a part of what we do or through therapist’s eyes because you make us the international podcast that we are.
So it’s pretty cool there. I figured we’d talk about families today a little bit, given that it’s the holiday times and you know, holidays have a lot to do with families. And then I thought we haven’t talked about substance abuse a lot, and I thought, well, you know, that happens a lot in the holiday seasons, people trip out with substance abuse, but y’all beat me to the punch before we turned the mics on.
Now let’s rewind a little bit to last one. I am not beyond eat and grow. I am not beyond taking responsibility for talking a little bit of crap. I didn’t even talk that much crap, but if you recall now I’m actually a little bit resentful
and
[00:01:49] Adam Cloninger: this is a good time to plug in last week’s episode apart where he was talking about it.
And he said, do them next week. You’re a blah, blah, blah.
[00:01:55] Chris Gazdik: Well, yeah, because we have a fantasy football, new member team guy named Neil Robinson that I played last week. My resentment is I just found out y’all. So if, if you don’t know fantasy football, you kind of keep your players, you play against your teammates and you kind of figure out, you know, at the end of the year, he has the best record and at points are a big factor in everything.
Well, evidently this little Jack boy over here is sitting there realizing when I brought it up, that he didn’t set his team. So as I’m talking about the game that he and I are about ready to play. He won because I reminded him. And I’m upset about that, Neil. So he outsmarted you.
[00:02:38] Adam Cloninger: He listened. No, I won because my tight ends court, as much as your quarterback
[00:02:43] Chris Gazdik: there is that there is that.
Now I’m curious, did you have a
[00:02:47] Adam Cloninger: player in or whatever there wasn’t
[00:02:48] Chris Gazdik: playing. And some, some injured people. I mean, what, what did you replace?
[00:02:52] Adam Cloninger: I don’t be honest. Now. I really actually messed up. Cause I put a wrong play who was actually out at one point, thinking that I’d have time to replace them. So I was even
[00:02:59] Chris Gazdik: down another person.
I would’ve won. If I hadn’t said anything, I still would have lost. I love what else did I did the math. So what I heard is he
[00:03:08] Adam Cloninger: beat you by
[00:03:08] Chris Gazdik: accident? He, well, no, he won. Congratulations, Neil, you got it. I’m really going to be upset if your first time in the league and you get the, the, can I say that on the air?
I guess I can, whatever is fantasy football, we’re real people. The big prize of the hillbilly moonshine stuff. Hillbilly. If you get the hillbilly mood side Stein this first year that you play in our league, I am going to be upset.
[00:03:30] Adam Cloninger: I won’t say that every time we record,
[00:03:32] Chris Gazdik: that would be terrible.
[00:03:35] Adam Cloninger: So is that like your trophy?
You have a heel, what do you call it? Hillbilly.
[00:03:38] Chris Gazdik: Hillbilly moonshine. It’s done. Yeah. That’s the winner of the league for the year. It gets the Stanley cup trophy, man. I mean, yeah. I’ve had it once, twice, once or twice. Yeah. So anyway, congratulations, Ms. Rubs and you won the fantasy football game
[00:03:53] Adam Cloninger: delivery musical background.
When you were awarded that prize,
[00:03:56] Chris Gazdik: I have swollen enough Crow. We’re moving on. All right, we’ll talk about tonight. We are moving on. So families with addiction and emotional reality called survivor mode. It’s. It’s really it’s it’s, it’s a. It’s a concept that I thought combines a few things together. You know, that the family dynamics and boundaries and stuff during the holidays, we haven’t talked a lot about addiction, you know, in a little while.
And, and that’s a big part of what we cover, what I see in my therapy office and, and work with. And so combining that together is this idea called survivor mode. And I’m going to kind of go through the descriptions of it, how it works, but it’s bottom line, basically, you know, the dynamics that you see in families with substance abuse warning is when I go through it.
And I’m curious how it will interact with it, Adam, because when I go through it, a lot of times people get kind of confused about it. They get sort of like lost a little bit. And so I don’t use the survivor mode stuff in therapy a whole lot. Because of that. Okay. Instead I just use the dynamics of family and what happens and we kind of work on, you know, the emotional issues of shame and boundary setting and you know, that kind of stuff that happens a lot in those types of family units, but, but it’s still very much in my mind.
And if it makes sense, maybe I’ll start using it again. So. Sure. You know, so first of all, we got a few shows that are really good. And, and if you’re listening to this, when you want to kind of tune back especially episode eight, substance abuse and addiction, what it is and what it isn’t is a really good one because we just laid out deep dive on what is substance abuse.
And actually, I think I’ve decided I’m not really going to touch on that a whole lot at all today. So I’m assuming that we understand a little bit about addiction, exactly what the title is, what it is and what it is. And if, if you don’t just push, pause, go pop back to that and you’ll get a good understanding of the actual individual.
Cause we’re talking about the family today and then also episode 64 addiction and family dynamics. I’m going to touch on probably some of those, but it’s only partly a segment. And we took a deep dive on that as well, looking at something that’s really cool and family units, that’s creepy from family unit to family.
There, every story is unique and every person is unique and every family has its own unique characteristics and stuff. But for whatever reason, man, particularly with substance abuse, when you get family dynamics involved in thinking about it, it’s like mapped out. Almost people have reactions to it and you, and you fit into very specific roles.
I’m not sure how much I’ll go into that, but we’ll touch a segment on that, but that show goes deep on it. And then lastly, the shame sucks. One that we just did that wasn’t with Judah. It was right before
[00:06:44] Adam Cloninger: I tell you, I love that title. I mean, if I just saw just that title, I’ll be like, what is this? I gotta check this out.
Just not even knowing what it’s about.
[00:06:51] Chris Gazdik: Well, we’re going to talk about how that works in families a little bit, but it is such a huge part of what happens with a family dynamics. So shame is like, I don’t know if I’m willing to call it the biggest. Area of family dynamics with addiction, but it, it, it probably pretty much comes, comes real close to it.
I forgot to start by thing, Neil. So can you tell me how many minutes? Three, four minutes, 34 minutes. I’m guessing that’s it? No, that’s more than seven. I thought it was more than that. Okay. Three and plus four seven. Hey, I got to like time up. This is actually like a therapy session in that way. I am constantly thinking, what time is it?
How much time do we have left and a little behind the scene you
[00:07:40] Adam Cloninger: asked me to be on this
show.
[00:07:42] Chris Gazdik: What’s it know who needs to be talk with that guy? That guy will work out. Well, the answer to that audience is no looking into the camera. No, but but it is kind of a cool little behind. My brain is constantly aware of like, you know, what time is it in the session?
How far in are we, you know, do do we have enough time to deal with this issue? And of course it’s inevitable that something huge comes up like 55 minutes into the session. And I’m like, you know, what am I going to do with this? How do I button this up? You’re gonna have to have a part to repair re you know, you move on from that, but it, but it is, it is kind of tricky.
And I’m always mindful of that. What is the same thing on the show? I mean, I’m constantly aware of what time it is. So how much time do we have for this part, this segment, that segments, just a therapy skill
[00:08:33] Adam Cloninger: again, when you get to like a clock
[00:08:35] Chris Gazdik: over here or something, yeah. Start it up. Meet. Yeah. So it will be on three
[00:08:38] Adam Cloninger: eight when he says go and I’ll just hit the button because I’m like that
[00:08:41] Chris Gazdik: way you can just kind of check it out, forget to hit the button.
I’m into what I’m talking about anyway. So where do we go here? Maybe I just kind of ask you. Well, that’s, that’s obvious. I think I won’t do that. I mean, what is survivor mode mean to you? But it’s like an obvious title. It’s just interesting to me, the way that it plays out in these family dynamics and relationships.
So
[00:09:03] Adam Cloninger: what do you mean like if fibs things are your, your say your families having somebody that’s addicted to how you handled things differently because your family is in survival mode, is that you’re talking about trying to hold the family together.
[00:09:15] Chris Gazdik: Right. Okay. Th those types of things, and actually, that’s probably a good point to make that I don’t, I didn’t think about, but just you saying that sentence made me think about this probably really relates more to a mom or a dad, specifically the survivor mode concept, not so much when you’re a parent and you have a child that has addiction, this is, this is more when you’re the kid.
And your parents have drug or alcohol addiction. Okay. So that is a qualifier that I’m going to put here. Okay. We’ll still talk about family dynamics and different things going on, but on a scale of one to 10, 10 being, oh yeah, I’m an expert. I got it. I know it all. So are you a know it all with substance abuse, one being really barely know what you mean when you say addiction or whatnot, where are you at?
Would you
[00:10:03] Adam Cloninger: say tens of expert and a one’s nothing. 10 is a Tanzania. What? All 12 numbers kid. I’m gonna say like maybe seven, eight, maybe. Yeah.
[00:10:15] Chris Gazdik: A good bit. Yeah. Well, okay. How so? That’s a lot. That’s a lot. How so? And how, where does that come from so that we can know where your head is at? Well, I
[00:10:26] Adam Cloninger: mean, I know people who’ve had to deal with that, so they’ve talked with me and I’ve had.
Some things I’ve known about my own family life that I know where to us,
[00:10:35] Chris Gazdik: you know, you would say maybe a lot of personal experience of hers per se,
[00:10:40] Adam Cloninger: say a lot of personal spirits, but I mean, yeah, there’s some personal
[00:10:42] Chris Gazdik: experience there or something. Okay. Well, I’m getting a gauge on as you know, people that, you know, and people that you’ve experienced this with, because the reason being is because a lot, a lot, a lot of people, we’re not going to have time to talk about what is addiction, what isn’t please do tune into the episode eight.
And we probably have more episodes on the, the show list for that, because it is so. So misunderstood. I’d almost like to do a personal experiment with you to listen to eight from long ago, and then ask you that question again and see what you, what you thought from that out off, off the mix, what I’m saying, but that would be a fun thing to ask you about this week.
If you think about it, because there are so many myths and misconceptions and misunderstandings about what this is, man. People talk about addiction nowadays. I mean, it’s cool that people are thinking about it, but a lot of times people are talking about addiction in an addiction is not, there’s a lot of substance abuse that people are disruptive with their lives, with alcohol and even weed, and even sometimes drugs.
But we had a lot of conversations over the years. I think Neil, before you were even with us, Craig and I kicked this around a lot. As we brought up substance abuse issues and I would ping off of him over that year or two of him learning what it is and what it is. And he struggled with that. So you’re
[00:12:00] Adam Cloninger: saying something like to the fact of not necessarily the actual addicted to the drug, but using the drug as an escape or vice versa, you’re saying, yeah, it’s
[00:12:09] Chris Gazdik: really not kind of vice versa.
It’s a lot of people will. Yeah. We’ll get into down a bunny trail with that, that I don’t want to spend time on today, but how do I be short? Like people will use it as an escape. People will use it as a coping mechanism and that does not necessarily mean addiction. Addiction has very specific things that we’re looking for.
There are symptom sets that I find even a lot of professionals get a little bit twisted on talking about. An abuse or misuse of stuff as addiction. And it’s, it’s not addiction has a whole series of sets of control over your life is the big thing. Okay. Now I’m a four. Yeah. Well, okay. Is that a
[00:12:50] Adam Cloninger: joke or you explain that to me a little bit.
Yeah. Yeah. I,
[00:12:55] Chris Gazdik: I bet your number would come down if you guys into it, but maybe not that far. I don’t know. So that is what we’re not going to be able to deal with. Describing a family with addiction is, is there, so there are some, there are some bigger characteristics that I want to kind of maybe set us up with now all told there’s this lady named Claudia black and in the eighties, she did a lot of groundbreaking work on.
Family dynamics and what goes on in addictions because in the sixties and seventies, we started learning a lot about addiction, but nobody really did anything with the family. And now I think it’s pretty well known yet. Have you heard the statement addiction is a family disease or has, you know, is a family issue?
No. Hmm. Okay. That’s interesting to me. It is. I mean, I can,
[00:13:45] Adam Cloninger: I can relate to that.
[00:13:47] Chris Gazdik: It affects the whole family, right? So it’s, it’s maybe it’s a bit of a no-brainer, but people have called it a family disease for the reasons that everyone is really sucked into this metaphor for addiction applies here.
I have used the metaphor of addiction being a black hole, right. So it sucks all the emotional and physical resources from a person’s life and all those people that are close. Right. So emotionally you get sucked in physical resources. Just go get sucked into this person’s web of, of so destructive reality that addiction creates.
So that’s a metaphor that gives you a little bit of thinking, but Claudia, about black back to her, she did a lot of groundbreaking work. So if you want to get some good stuff, Claudia black we’ll have that on the show notes. I think some of her stuff she’s got great books and materials out there. She talks about don’t talk don’t trust and don’t feel it’s a big area of understanding when you think about what happens in these types of families.
So this is a little segment on just a little bit of addiction and a little bit about family dynamics with it. Don’t tell. Don’t trust and don’t feel those are like inherent rules that become understood when you are in a substance abuse family, they stand for what they mean, but what do you take from that?
How can you imagine that playing around if that makes any sense to you?
[00:15:13] Adam Cloninger: Well, my first question is about, so don’t talk all about,
[00:15:18] Chris Gazdik: I mean,
[00:15:20] Adam Cloninger: right. You got to tell me, what’s your, what’s your meaning by that
[00:15:23] Chris Gazdik: really? Per cool. Cause I feel like it stands for what it means. That’s that’s where, okay.
[00:15:29] Adam Cloninger: Well mean, I mean, this is probably gonna be wrong, but I’m saying, okay, go ahead.
Don’t talk. Don’t don’t be telling people the what’s going on with something I’m not so sure. I understand that completely don’t trust don’t trust. What people’s other people’s advice or what, where are you going with that? And then don’t feel Hmm.
[00:15:51] Chris Gazdik: Yeah, that’s interesting that you went that way and I’m glad you, you, you asked directly what do you mean by don’t talk, imagine yourself being six years old, and I’m going to go against the myth that men are always addicted.
Moms absolutely have drug and alcohol addictions as well. Imagine yourself as the six year old kid and mommy’s day, or she does life, she’s wakes you up and takes you to school or whatever, but, but mommy tends to get liquored up. And when mommy gets liquored up, she acts weird. She sometimes gets really angry and she’ll yell and she’s in fights with daddy.
And I don’t really understand what. Going on with, and maybe the six year old begins to notice, oh, well mommy’s doing this drinking thing. And when mommy has that coffee cup with ice in it, that looks a little beer, a little different. Yeah. And I don’t like it. It doesn’t feel right. Right. So what does a normal situation when a kid doesn’t feel right?
What do they do? Well, mommy, why is things weird? Why, why are you screaming? Right. Right. No, in a substance abuse family, you learn very quickly when you do that, all hell comes down. Right. It is not okay. Right.
[00:17:08] Adam Cloninger: Because
[00:17:08] Chris Gazdik: you’re calling them out, you’re calling them out and that is not okay. So you learn very quickly.
You do not talk about it. You do not talk as an elephant. You know that metaphor, right? That’s where that metaphor comes from the substance abuse field. No one talks about the elephant. It’s a disruptive force in our lives. It’s a disruptive force in our rooms is a disruptive force in our emotions. And we know it down to our bones, but no buddy we’ll call out the fact that there’s an elephant here.
That metaphor comes from the substance abuse field. So the very, very powerful rule, same thing with trust. It’s unreliable. Mommy may show up for the dance class, but mommy may not show up for a dance class. Right? How many times have I been let down? You told me I can stay up till nine o’clock when you were having a conversation with me last night, the last night mommy was drunk.
She had a blackout and she didn’t know it. And it’s nine 30 and you’re getting crushed for it. It’s this type of,
[00:18:07] Adam Cloninger: mommy’s supposed to pick me up today, but she forgot
[00:18:10] Chris Gazdik: dad. Now you’re calling dad, right? Yep. It’s you cannot talk about it. You cannot trust. And by all means you really learn because all of the feelings are buzzing around, just numb out.
Now you’re not going to feel, and you learn because it’s chronic unpredictable reality in your home that we’re not going to feel anything. It’s so sad. When I started learning about these types of things, because little kids and I’ve had them in therapy, we’ve dealt with this and talked about this, and I could tell you, it plays out really in real ways, they will bring their friends over, you know, a little sleepovers, right?
Little Johnny has his buddies and we play PlayStation
[00:18:53] Adam Cloninger: all night. Girls are scared. What’s going
[00:18:54] Chris Gazdik: to happen going to bring anybody home, right? They’re not going to have anybody see quite likely the realities that are maybe fine evening. It might be great. And the parent didn’t understand that
[00:19:08] Adam Cloninger: they have no clue.
The lobby over Bobby’s
[00:19:13] Chris Gazdik: house. I don’t think I’m gonna do that. W w Bobby’s mom said I could come sleep over. Is that okay? Yeah. And you’re out, you’re, you’re out. It’s powerful. It is so sad. And you’re right there. There’s there, there are none, none aware of it. And then, and then I made a note to myself.
Yeah. Like you really have to understand. And family dynamics like this, the level of shame is just profound. It is, it is something that gets sort of ingrained or embedded into your spirit.
[00:19:47] Adam Cloninger: So you’re talking about like, as far as like the kid being, I guess, ashamed that their parent is acting that way or
[00:19:56] Chris Gazdik: ashamed is I’m glad you asked that.
Perfect because ashamed is I’m ashamed of you, Adam, because you’re such a terrible cohost. I don’t want to tell anybody that he was here tonight. I’m ashamed. I only
[00:20:08] Adam Cloninger: got a couple more weeks. Seven. You have a break
[00:20:11] Chris Gazdik: for five whole months. That sucks. Shame is I’m doing something wrong and I’m full of shame because I haven’t been a good enough host to enable you to be great.
Right? Shame is I’ve done well. And we took a deep dive on a show, but I’m glad we’re reviewing it because it’s so super powerful here. I’ve done something that’s against my moral code. I’ve done something that’s dishonest. I’ve done something that is bad or wrong. Right. I feel shameful. That’s the, the, the core of what happens with shame back.
Johnny and mommy, if I bring something up and say, oh mommy, why are you acting weird? What’s going on? I’m fine. Oh, well, there’s something wrong with me then, because clearly I’m all jacked up feeling weird. So I am bad. I am wrong. I am faulty. I might even be caused a problem because you just yelled
[00:21:18] Adam Cloninger: at me.
Well, you’ve also got to think too. They might not. If that discussion came about when the parent was not all jacked up or whatever, they may not remember what happened last night. And when it’s brought up, they may get defensive because they don’t really truly understand what was going on the night before.
[00:21:38] Chris Gazdik: You’re on point. They have no clue. They literally don’t even remember. Or if they do remember it’s hazy or to a lesser extent, if they do remember very clearly, it’s kinda like, dude, I don’t want to answer that question. After they get angry and have this conversation. So yeah, I was going to get pissed off and defensive.
And again, you can’t talk about it. You don’t feel anything and you dang sure. Don’t trust what’s in front of you. It is kids have in amazing experiences in therapy. When we begin to work on these things, when they become adults. And here’s another really cool thing that occurs to me, the reason why that’s the case is because listen, if you have a parent that has alcohol or drug related troubles, I can, I can almost promise you, you have some of these things floating around in here in your subconsciousness, in your psychology, and maybe even in your awareness, but you’ve normalized it, right.
We just experience our family as being normal as the way. Particularly when you’re young, when you’re 10 years and younger, you have no idea what other families operate. Like, it’s just, this is it. And so think about a decade long of normalizing something, wondering about something as a teenager and not being able to really figure it out and then creating your own family in your twenties or thirties, I’m trying to piece it all together.
The emotional impacts just string right through that person’s life. It’s, it’s amazing to me, which is where there’s a generational impact as well. Why it’s a family disease and family issue. God, it’s a big deal. It’s just a big deal. Okay. Same segment. But let’s look back a little bit at just like shame.
We can’t, we can’t talk about family dynamics without co-dependence got to talk about co-dependence now I know you’ve heard of that phrase before. I’m really curious. What’s on the street. You’re such an expert at what’s on the street. That was a joke. Yeah, that was a bad joke. Joke. Wasn’t
[00:23:38] Adam Cloninger: terrible.
Nobody’s buying it. I’m Santa Claus,
man.
[00:23:41] Chris Gazdik: Nobody be like Santa Claus. Fan love the beard development. You’re my idol. I’m going to see if I can kind of get back down to that point. The cameras are showing. Yeah. You get that. You got the Santa Claus beard going. It’s coming in. It’s coming in nicely. All right.
What did they say on the street that co-dependence is says you
[00:23:57] Adam Cloninger: exactly what you were referring to,
you
[00:24:01] Chris Gazdik: know, do you have an idea of what co-dependence is?
[00:24:03] Adam Cloninger: Probably not. The more you talking about this, the more I’m thinking now I’m like a three or a two now.
[00:24:10] Chris Gazdik: Seriously. We did a show on co-dependence. I think Neil and I didn’t write that up and I want that to be on here.
Can we get that? Can we get that number? I also actually like literally have a whole chapter in my book on co-dependence because I feel like it’s such a big component of life, not even just through substance abuse, but in a lot of ways we fall into codependent traits. I almost feel like this is a note to therapists out there.
You know, whoever’s in charge of the DSM or whatever. I feel strongly that should be a diagnosable ICD nine condition. I really do. There’s not a lot of biological aspects to it, but the social and emotional learning that we go through and get programmed with, especially in a substance abuse families, it is a standalone issue that, that, that has a tremendous amount of outcroppings and comings from it.
Do you have a number of. Okay. It’s episode 26. And we’ll try to have that maybe on the show notes as well when we’re highlighting these shows, because we took a deep dive on this as well. And it’s another one. Look, a lot of our shows play off on each other. This one plays off on the prior shows that we took deep dives on these individual things all a lot.
So if you, if you have any kind of family dynamics with addiction, please know that we did deep dives on these. I know I’m brushing over them and they can’t be really easily brushed over. I’ll give an attempt though with co-dependence. So in a few liners, not a one-liner, but a few liners you’ve ever heard that that’s a phrase you’ve heard a few liners before, and I thought I created that in there in, in, in the real time.
Anyway. Co-dependence can easily be defined in a few liners in my mind that a person is codependent when they sort of become the mood of the other person. So if the other person is well, then I feel well in the happy. If the other person is not well, then I do not feel well or happy. So my efforts, energies, behaviors are designed and targeted towards making the other person well, so that ultimately I’ll be well.
And in a nutshell, that’s codependency, right? Kind of briefly, I feel like almost to a man and a woman, when you’re a parent, you are a certain amount of co-dependence. If your kids are hurting, oh my God.
[00:26:35] Adam Cloninger: What’s that addiction. That’s just part of the
[00:26:38] Chris Gazdik: best part of the roles. Begin to take on. If you’re, if your kid is struggling and hurting, I mean, there’s a piece of you that feels that and is not well.
So we fall into a lot of traps and just taking care of the homework assignment for them. So, you know, going crazy. No, we don’t do that. Shouldn’t be, but we do
not performing well on the baseball field. I’m going to talk to the coach and kind of get an angle to help him out.
We just talked about last week. I’m I’m personally in the store, you know, why am I buying extra gifts every Christmas, you know, the day or two before. So that there’s enough under these Christmas tree that my kid will be happy. Why am I doing that? These are elements of codependency, right? Times 10.
When you have a substance abuse situation in your. With somebody that you care about. And oftentimes this is the spouse. So you see the struggles, you see the changes, you see the here’s a keyword with addiction progression, where it gets bigger and bigger and bigger of an issue. It doesn’t ever get smaller and smaller.
It gets over the years bigger and bigger and bigger. Even if somebody is sober for a little while the issue grows and you see that progression, you get sucked into behavior that you’re trying to literally make them sober or drink less. Like you will find yourself, literally pouring alcohol liquor down the drain.
What is that? Or you just get to the
[00:28:12] Adam Cloninger: point where you just don’t care anymore, because you tried so much and you just been beat over the head, this not going to work and
[00:28:22] Chris Gazdik: things start breaking down. That’s later stage that is when people end up getting divorced or just crash and burn. But long before that crash and burn thing, Adam, I’m telling you, you, you fall into all of these kind of weird behaviors, mean who pours the liquor down the drain.
Why would you ever do that? Why don’t you just say to them, dude, honey, what are you doing? Why, why aren’t you drinking again tonight? Cause that’s gonna start argument as exactly. No talk, no feel. It’s an elephant. These are rules. Absolutely. Why? Why would you ever call somebody and tell them why you’re your husband?
Oh, I guess we’ll stay with the wife. Who’s the addict, right? Why would you ever call somebody and tell them why your wife can’t come to the event and make something. Th th that they’re sick. They’re just not well at all. They’re okay. You know, but we’ll see you next week. I mean, it’s weird. There’s these, all these little behaviors that people get into and it’s because you’re, you’re desperately trying to make things okay.
And that, that ends up being codependent. Right. Getting a flavor for how this runs and how this works. Yeah. Yeah. Is that fit with some of the things you’ve seen with people and, you know, even like spouses and stuff, any other examples come to mind or questions or thoughts to wrap us up there?
[00:29:51] Adam Cloninger: And I was kind of thinking I’m not, can I say this?
There’s a, I can see there may be some denial from the other spouse too, that there actually is. The issue that you do, you think there’s an issue? Cause there’s going to be times where, you know, when things are just kind of starting out, somebody is just starting to have an issue that you’re like, okay, they got a substance abuse problem.
Then you’re like, well maybe it’s not that maybe it’s something else
[00:30:25] Chris Gazdik: rationalizations or huge cover stories. Minimization are huge. There are spouses that find themselves. I am not interested in drinking. I never really drank, but because they want me to drink with them. I’m drinking most days this week.
Like, why am I doing that to make drinking normal? You’ll you’ll, you’ll join into behavior. I’ve never done cocaine. My God, I have no interest in dating, cooking. Well, my fiance’s uses cocaine. I guess I’m going to try cocaine. Right. You know, and they end up snorting. It’s like, oh God, And that’s actually a true story that was in my head from a recent person I’m working with.
Right? Like these are real things and you’re, you’re insightfully on point, you know, you, you, and if you’re sitting out there thinking, listening to this, I wouldn’t fall into these behaviors. I, that, that sounds crazy. No, you know, when you start finding bottles, hidden in your bathroom, you’re going to be like, I don’t, I don’t have the playbook for this.
Like, what am I supposed to do with, you know, I was cleaning the toilet and I lifted up the lid and there’s a, there was a liquor bottle in here. Like how do I even have that conversation?
[00:31:35] Adam Cloninger: Right? Yeah. I was spraying the Clorox bottle and smell a lot like
[00:31:38] Chris Gazdik: baka. Right. I
[00:31:42] Adam Cloninger: don’t think this is Clorox. That question.
There was a movie this past weekend that had it on there. That’s unique. The was it bruise? Don’t want the Halle Berry she’s ain’t me. My fighter. I got nothing. I haven’t seen the whole time. There was one part where, you know, somebody was drinking and then. Nowhere to hide the, the bottle, they’d pour it into a spray bottle
[00:32:07] Chris Gazdik: and okay.
And they were literally spraying it. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? It gets bad in severe. After 10, 15, 20 years of have a drink and career, you know, you might be going around, you know, taking care of your kid and getting the, the, the, the rubbing alcohol to, to, to fix a wound and find it gone. You’re like, where the hell I just bought a crap load of rubbing alcohol.
That’s because your husband drank it. Like, again, how do you have that conversation
[00:32:37] Adam Cloninger: with somebody that happened to you? Yes,
[00:32:39] Chris Gazdik: you do. I mean, this is the, it gets bizarre. You,
[00:32:44] Adam Cloninger: somebody, I know somebody that
[00:32:45] Chris Gazdik: in, in longer later stages, it gets bizarre. The
[00:32:48] Adam Cloninger: the wife wouldn’t allow alcohol in the house. So he drank rubbing alcohol.
Yeah. I know somebody happened to, yeah.
[00:32:56] Chris Gazdik: I know, right? Like it’s nasty. It’s I couldn’t imagine being in that space, but when you have addiction that things progressed and they prescribed me. You’re not doing that at 25 years old, who they actually is going to drink rubbing alcohol at 25 years old. It’s late stage addiction, some of these things, but in early stages, all of this stuff just builds and builds and builds and builds.
You know, you’re, I’m sure you’ve asked your alcoholic wife and complained about drinking and whatnot before. So don’t think it’s absolute. It’s just, you, you learn every time you do that, it’s a fight. So after about five years of trying and doing that, okay, I’ll just leave it alone. I don’t want them. I just looked out.
I’ll just look away, you know, so let’s transition to survivor mode. Okay. This is, this is where I may lose people. And so I’m curious for you to see if this is clear or not. It’s a concept again, that Claudia black really? I think probably. And I heard her talk about it in a conference. And she told a story that I think perfectly described some of these characteristics of what you feel like as a kid in these situations.
And, and, and this story described, you know, what a kid’s experiencing that we’re going to call survivor mode. And she’s honest, she is from a alcoholics functional family. That’s why she, you know, she’s lived it, she studied it, she knows it. And she told a story about herself. So this is a story that she shared at a conference about the demonstrates survivor boat.
So Claudia and her boyfriend were sitting in her living room. Okay. You can picture this living room. She’s sitting on the couch now she’s in her parents’ house and she’s a teenager, ish, I guess. And the parents own a bar in a, so the bars next door, and they live in their house and, you know, it’s convenient business, whatever.
And so her brother and sister, whoever is also in the living room, sitting in a chair and whatever. So they’re just hanging out there watching TV, all sudden, boom there’s door slams, open front door. And as big guy presents himself, says, where’s the bathroom at? I need a bathroom, you know? And Claudia looks at him and points over here.
He’s like, well, it’s right over there. You know? And they’re looking around like, who’s the dude. And you know, he comes out of the bathroom and he walks back to the living room and leaves. Right. They start watching TV again. And that’s it. That’s the story. So the boyfriend of course is like, you know, editor, like, Hey, clock, clock, Claudia hoot.
He was like, you know, he’s got questions, right? Who’s that guy. Do we need to lock the door? Like, should we call somebody? Are we safe? Is this okay? Does this happen very often? Like you want to go to my house, you know, instead. So who’s in survivor mode, the boyfriend or Claudia.
Interesting pause and thoughts.
[00:35:58] Adam Cloninger: Well, I’m trying to not knowing who the guy was. Was she in survivor mode by just checking? Like it wasn’t a big deal or is he in survivor mode? Like, Hey, what’s going on? Yeah,
[00:36:07] Chris Gazdik: she is in survivor mode. So who was the person? Right? Doesn’t matter. It’s a stranger. He’s probably some drunk in a bar.
Here’s what happens in survivor mode. You go from one instance to the next, to the next, to the next to the next. And you become really street smart, really pretty wise, right? The boyfriend’s in panic mode. He’s tripping out. Like I said, those questions, he wants to know if, Hey, do I need to pull out my gun?
I mean, we need to track this guy down. Is this a police call? He’s not in survivor mode. He’s in like a panic mode or at least an upset space. Right. Whereas she’s just like, no, we’re good. She is numbed out. She is not worried. So that’s what survivor mode survivor mode is being in a mode where you assess super quick.
She went in panic mode and out of panic mode, like really quick. Here’s a guy guy’s probably drunk guy. And he’s asking about bathroom probably goes to bathroom. He’s probably going to leave outlook. He left. We’re good. All right. Let’s watch TV. Is it just like that? Not, not dead ball. The door. Don’t even worry about the door it’s about after he leaves with doors, not even a problem.
It’s, you know, if another situation pops up, we’ll deal with it. But this is fine. This is normal. This is no big deal. Like I just. That was Johnny. Maybe she even knows like, oh, you know, he gets in fights outside. He never does anything in the house. You know, it’s no big deal, but you know, he’s drunk.
So I had to make sure that that was the case. They are on point. They are scanning. They know what the dangers are before you and me and Neil probably ever even move. We, we, we don’t even know what to do. I mean, we’re ready for, you know, we’re putting our fists up, ready to fight the guy or, you know, cause more of a problem or literally call the police on a ridiculous situation.
Right? Survivor mode just gets into your DNA almost like you just, you live it, you, you, you numb out the emotions when a situation is done, essentially because you know, you know, there’s going to be another situation next week or next month, even. Probably tomorrow, maybe I never really know what I’m coming home to, so I’m ready for it.
I’m okay. I’m good. I’m calm. It’s pressure. It’s weird. It’s scary, but it’s fine. That’s survivor mode. It’s weird. Isn’t it? Does that seem clear? I’m really curious to tune into what you’re hearing and if that makes sense, but it still seems really weird. Yeah. Go further with that. I just think probably why I lose
[00:38:32] Adam Cloninger: it seems really weird, you know, some like, oh yeah.
Hey, just bathrooms that way. It just seems weird
[00:38:39] Chris Gazdik: that you would be calm after it.
[00:38:40] Adam Cloninger: Not so much calm, but just the fact that happened and, you know I can see me as somebody who comes to the door, I’m like you getting out, right. Because I’d be worried about, you know, protecting the
[00:38:53] Chris Gazdik: family or whatever.
Yeah, this is not an okay event, right? This is not safe. This causes feelings in me that I don’t like, and I’m not going to tolerate, you
[00:39:06] Adam Cloninger: know, but I can imagine the woman would be different. I mean guy comes in, I’d be like, almost like a bowl, get this person out of the house as fast as possible.
[00:39:17] Chris Gazdik: Yeah.
Yeah. But, but again, you got to think about it as Claudia. You’re going to be able to go to her parents and say anything about this. Is she going to talk about with, you know, my dad like, Hey dad, you know, I was, I was really upset when one of your patrons kind of came in the house, you know, we locked the door or something like, this is jacked up.
He’s going to say, oh, Plata you’d find, Hey, you’re far baby. It’s you know, I wonder if that had happened before. Probably. Yeah.
[00:39:45] Adam Cloninger: So that’s another yeah.
[00:39:47] Chris Gazdik: Factor. Yeah. It’s it’s nutty stuff is normalized. It is, is, is some of what you can happen. And I want people to understand too. We’re not talking about how do I want to put that?
Like, some of these things can sound dramatic when you really think about it, but it is when, when something is normalized, like it’s really not a big deal. We cope with it and in the way of life, and sometimes there aren’t dramatic events, like some big burly guy running into the living room. It’s I come home and found my drunk dad making out with, you know, mom on the couch.
I don’t know, is that weird? Every kids walked in on their parents sometime or two, maybe. I don’t know, but that’s crazy if that happens, particularly if sexual activity has progressed and, but that’s that happened. So it’s like, oh, well, and here’s the crazy thing. The kid doesn’t realize that. So abnormal, like I said, he gets normalized.
They just realized, well, mom was just kissing and they were just, you know, you, but it stopped when they walked into the room. But again, when that’s happening regularly, or maybe you walk in on an affair, that’s more dramatic. But the emotions, even with like just the simpler situation, like I’m trying to descript, like there’s basic situations that are emotionally jacked up and there’s dramatic situations that are emotionally jacked up.
And I don’t want people to minimize if they’re seeing things that are a little jacked up, that it’s just the small stuff, because the small stuff leads to a little bit bigger stuff and a little bit bigger stuff. And then you get to this dramatic crap, you know, 10 years kind of get used to it. Yeah. And it grows.
Remember. So if you’re, you know, two years old, And your mom or dad’s starts getting into addiction behavior time. You’re 12 years old. That’s 10 years of progression, meaning their addiction is getting worse. Their drinking is probably increasing their behaviors, getting a little more loudly. Ridiculous.
You know, I, I, I know of a person I’ve worked with it, you know, came home from work and had, you know, gotten sick all over himself. Like that’s not normal, but ah, he just needed to run up and get a shower, you know? It’s it’s the kids didn’t even know it. It’s just the spouse that knew it. It is so many ways that this stuff just blows into a family life cycle that it’s, in some ways it just kind of breaks down.
So let me see some of these things might relate to codependent behavior, but I, but I did a thought process of thinking what are, what are daily behaviors that, that can be a part of this? I mentioned hiding alcohol you know, dumping alcohol and hiding alcohol and having this weird component of, of, of, of normal stuff that you just start finding crap in your house.
You know, the kids. Well, I would, I find bottles, little mini bottles, you know? Right. There’s a little mini bottles are everywhere. Put my hand down in the couch and, oh, well there’s many bottles. I, you
[00:43:10] Adam Cloninger: know, so it might have been the parent. It might’ve been the kid hiding
[00:43:13] Chris Gazdik: it. Well, it was the parents. That’s what I’m saying.
Oh, okay. The parent, literally the kid are finding little mini bottles in the couch or, you know, tossed into the bathroom. Drawer where nobody looks and I was looking for toothpaste and I find this stuff like that’s a little simple situation, but again too, does that irrational irritabilities is a daily experience.
Not every day I’m saying, but you know, mommy, why were you acting so upset when, you know, you were outside on the phone while she was trashed and in a rage, you know, that goes both ways,
[00:43:52] Adam Cloninger: but the unrevised, or I’m sorry about the irrational stuff about, you know, getting her getting mad or whatever. I can see that going both ways.
Cause like when somebody has an addiction, substance abuse addiction, and the next day or hours down, or, you know, later on hours down the road and they don’t realize they were being a certain way. The other person remembers how they were being, so they might be irritable or
[00:44:20] Chris Gazdik: very good point.
[00:44:22] Adam Cloninger: And then, and then, then the person that’s actually has the, the, the, the problem using stuff may not understand why the other person, you know, what’s your problem.
You’re like, get away from me. Wow. Oh, I am I hunt. Get away from
[00:44:33] Chris Gazdik: me. Well, and I’m glad you bring that up. You’re right. A regular part of survival mode is as the teenager gets upset and well, we didn’t talk about this at all. And I can tell you right now, we’re not going to have time to talking about the roles of family and the play out and family dynamics.
That’s in the episode, whatever we had. Well, I have it here. That was in the episode 64 that we took in one of those roles is a scapegoat. And this is the, the personality and a family that basically they’re the troubled kid and they’re angry. I mean, they are angry. For obviously all kinds of reasons. And they act that out and they go get in trouble.
They get into fights and they go, do, you know, they just get in trouble you know, cares as much about school and, and it’s you’re right. It’s because frankly, they just had a bunch of shit happened to them all their life and they’re pissed off about it. So it does go both ways and that, and that’s a part of potentially a part of the survival mode idea.
I wrote personality changes, you know, if you’re, if you’re a kiddo and you kind of get an idea when daddy is he’s the alcoholic you know, if daddy comes home, you, you kind of get a gauge just like Claudia did with the guy coming into the living room. You gauged daddy. Oh, it was one of those nights.
We’ll just go play PlayStation up in the room, but just avoid, avoid, avoid, but, or daddy comes home and oh, he seems okay. Oh, daddy’s had two or three drinks. We could still talk to him. Can you help me out with the homework? I’m kind of tripping out about this math problem, dad w which got you. You do math.
Well, cause he’s only had three beers and you know, how many beers he had bought it right away, that survival mode, you see how intricate it can be in their life. That’s a good point that I just stumbled upon how many kids count, how many beers their parents have. I can’t remember doing that. I think I can honestly say I never did that.
Never had a reason to know. I might get a little bit giggly if you know, daddy’s a little bit trashed at the wedding when we’re driving home and mommy said, Hey daddy, I’m driving. And he’s like, oh, okay. You can drive. You know, now I’m laughing about that as a kid. Well, dad, how much did you drink? You know, those things are normal, but I’m not looking through the course of an evening.
We’ve hit number six. We need to shut it down. I think it was two. Well, yeah, two 50. Harold’s hers, you know, unreliable. Realities that develop a, as I said, you know, trust, you know, you just do not know. So you might not even ask about the math health problem. That’s all part of survivor mode. The no talk rules that develop.
I mentioned that with Claudia tensity to lose oneself because of of a lack of development, right? Even with expression of what you might want and what you might enjoy. I find what I mean by these, this idea is that you just don’t develop a concept of yourself. It gets lost. It kind of as a part of the co-dependence because kids can be codependent as well.
It isn’t just totally the spouse. They have elements. You kind of figure out I’m not even gonna ask about stuff. It’s fine. Whatever I get from my birthday I don’t have a particular restaurant. I want to go out to wherever you want to go. You kind of lose. Core development years about what it is that makes you, you, because what makes you, you is I need to figure out how I can be safe in this, in this environment.
It’s kind of sad, you know, it’s, it’s the chronicity of this stuff is a bit overwhelming. So I’m gonna switch to the next no, I’m not. Some of us up here with what you hear here in a minute, and then we need to get to, how do we get out of survival mode? That’s where we’re gonna focus on next. But there are some advantages to this.
I want to point out this is kinda cool, you know? And when I work with people that are a part of ACOA 10 bucks, I’ll give you if you know what ACO stands for. And I mean, it don’t tell them new AC oh, you got three seconds. 3, 2, 1. All right. I want to give you 10 bucks, adult children of alcoholics. It’s a thing it’s a national.
They actually have ACO and meetings and, and, and you can identify the best 10 bucks, man.
[00:48:53] Adam Cloninger: I’ll tell children of, yeah,
[00:48:57] Chris Gazdik: you got to know. So the group, you know, we’ll be able to tell you that they can handle problems. They are problem solvers. You will, you will see people in corporate worlds in, in administration.
I mean, they’re very giving and caring towards other people. They’re ready to, you know, some of that codependent stuff like this, you can be a really likable person and really successful at your job because you have lived with this stuff and you know what it is. And I’m actually going to give you a, an idea and, you know, you might not know this guy.
And I’m a debate in my head yet. It’s okay to say, because I think he’d been public about it. Remember Tom Duda. He, we, we chronicled him on our show and we had him on our show, Mr. CEO at like, w what did he tell you remember? Like 1925, he was a CEO corporate CEO that, well, yeah, because he was in survival mode and he was absolutely aware of how to progress his life.
So kind of has some advantages is really got some good things that can be built into your core personality. So it’s, it’s really not all bad. Plus also, I wanted to mention that. Well, I already mentioned that. Yeah. I mean, like I mentioned how these things play out through the course of the life cycle.
And I, I strongly suspect that, you know, we’ve talked about abandonment and engulfment on the show. I know, you know what that is. We’ve talked about that on the show and off and on. If somebody is on the engulfment camp and they have this survival mode kicking in swirling around that as well. Can you imagine how locked down people are emotionally?
It’s like, just, you will never know what they’re saying. And then we’ll never know when they’re rattled, you know, and I think a lot of that is like the CEO exact kind of slept talk type people and type situations, very, very successful, but boy, emotionally departmentalized and shut down pretty hardcore.
And again, I think, I think our buddy Tom is a, is a good example of that. So SEP wrap us up and we want to get onto the segment of how do we get out of this stuff and what do we do? But here in good stuff, making sense where we at where’s your brain.
[00:51:00] Adam Cloninger: I’m curious about the survival mode thing.
[00:51:04] Chris Gazdik: We mean,
[00:51:05] Adam Cloninger: but as far as like getting out of it, I’m curious, what’s your advice to the listeners or are just going to be as far as getting out of survival mode, because as you already said, the survival mode is something that you carry on.
So I’m wondering where you’re going with this as far as the getting out of survival mode, because it’s the way I see it as. Part of survival mode is even after you’ve gotten past this. Yeah. It’s going to take it with you. So I don’t, I don’t really know if you can ever really get out of it, but maybe you can get out of the, the harmful.
[00:51:39] Chris Gazdik: You’re not at risk anymore. I think you’re on point there. Yeah. Does it seem daunting? Cause it is. I mean, you’re right. I mean child. Yeah. Well now we’re all grown up though. And now we might have a belief that I’m good. Like you just said it’s not gonna affect me anymore by golly. I’m not going to let my mommy hurt me anymore.
I mean, we’re all grown up and you know, my, I might not even have a relationship with her anymore because she’s just to be shit and I don’t want to deal with her anymore to be real.
But yeah, it’s in you, right? You you’ve carried it into your life. It’s a part of what your life experience. If you’re not having a relationship
[00:52:18] Adam Cloninger: with somebody, then I just, that’s just evidence that it is
[00:52:21] Chris Gazdik: part of you still is a lot of resentment. There’s a lot of hurt. There’s a lot of twisted feelings and emotions and you might not, you know, you might actually still subscribe to the idea of don’t trust.
Don’t talk, don’t feel, you know, you might not have ever put it in that language, but, oh, this is why I have a hard time trusting my spouse. And he never really drank, dropping their life, but I just got, I’ve always had trust issues. Well, that makes it hard. It can trace right back to this stuff. We’ve been talking about.
I just don’t really deal with feelings. That’s you know, man. Well, okay. I mean, but that tracks back to these things that we’re talking about, so you never really even thought of the family rule was don’t talk don’t trust, don’t feel, but it’s playing out in your adult life and people sometimes are completely on the unawares.
So yeah, you’re ready to get out of it. Intrigued enough. Well, the part
[00:53:15] Adam Cloninger: of I’m not dealing with feelings is dealing with feelings. That’s not dealing with. It is actually dealing with feelings and
[00:53:23] Chris Gazdik: the twisted sort of way. You’re right.
[00:53:28] Adam Cloninger: Nobody of dealing with some type of failing. I’m an
[00:53:29] Chris Gazdik: excellent shut her down or I’m an excellent compartmentalizer.
I’m an excellent emotion compressor and yeah, you’re right. Which by the way takes a lot of energy to do so. You’re very right. And I’ve thought about that. I see what you’re saying. You’re dealing with feelings and emotions. Like more than most people. Like,
[00:53:49] Adam Cloninger: why are you always thinking of the bad
[00:53:51] Chris Gazdik: things?
Because I’ve always dealt with the bad
[00:53:53] Adam Cloninger: things. Yeah. Why are you thinking the worst case scenario? Because I’ve always dealt with the worst,
[00:53:58] Chris Gazdik: just ready for it. You know, I want to be prepared. Why, why don’t want to get caught off guard? You know, what can’t you relax, just chill out or boyfriend, girlfriend sitting on the couch, watching TV.
Why are you on edge? I am relaxed. What are you talking about, right? Yeah. Yeah. How do we get out of this stuff? I brainstormed a little bit on this. And I really, really like the first one that I came to when I was thinking about it, because it’s really hard to do, but, but if you can learn and have permission or give yourself permission to speak the truth, right.
That breaks the silence and gets you out of just surviving, speaking the truth, as best as you could perceive it, as best as you can see it as best as you can express it in as much as you can. This is what I really see honey talking about now. You know what let’s almost transition is now we’re not talking about the kid with the parents anymore.
Now we’re going to talk about it in the context of ACOA. I will not give you any money, but what does ACOA stand for? I’ll call like I’ll listen to one adult children or adults. I thought you said alcoholic, J C O a adult. Children of alcoholics.
[00:55:22] Adam Cloninger: Not rubbing off on me, man. Sorry
[00:55:25] Chris Gazdik: to punch me later on. Sorry.
I get hit every time after I do the show. Can I reveal that? Would that be an okay thing to reveal?
[00:55:33] Adam Cloninger: That’s how I, that’s how I deal with this. That’s how I deal with this.
[00:55:37] Chris Gazdik: It’s not true. Y’all Adam’s way too, kind to that. Okay. So what we’re going to do is ACOA adult turn about colleagues. We’re now thinking of these people grown up and they’ve got their own lives.
They may be married. They may not be married. They may have kids. They may not have kids, but these are ways to kind of manage this now, as you’re possibly even still in survival mode, in fact, probably are unbeknownst to you still in survival mode as an adult. These are things that we want to do to get out of it.
So speaking the truth boy, that can be hard to do, but when you really see something and you’re really feeling something, or you’re really observing something, dude, you are breaking every rule about no talk rules that you can think of. If you try to do this, I want to demonstrate how difficult this is to do, or try to convey how difficult this is to do.
But if you can get. Courage built to really begin sharing with your spouse. This is what I really think you’re breaking the no talk rule and that is just not done in these families. It’s just not done, but if you can do it a little bit and then a little bit more, you are absolutely healing yourself just by being honest and sharing the truth about what it is that you see and what you observe.
The next thing, I don’t even know how, how do we get into the trying to be brief on, you know, boundary setting, you know, setting boundaries say yes. When you mean yes. And say no when you mean no, and really mean both of them. When you say them, that’s the simplest version I can get to and saying boundary setting, but this is a huge, huge component.
Adam, can you even imagine having had our conversation for the last hour or so, how many boundaries are crossed when you’re a kid and then I’ll call it functional family?
[00:57:30] Adam Cloninger: No, it’s profound. I’m Sarah looking at the things that you had had put on here and it almost not all of them, but some of them are actually breaking the kind of things that was said from Claudia black.
Just like you’re doing the exact opposite.
[00:57:51] Chris Gazdik: What do you mean? Oh, when a set of don’t talk, you talk. Yeah. Instead of don’t feel you do feelings. Yeah. But essentially in simplistic nature. Yeah. You want to reverse course on some of the patterns and behaviors that you’ve kind of done. Yeah. No, that’s a good observation and, and probably very true.
Yeah, you’re saying that because of see right. Talk, talk, talk, break. The no talk rules, right? Yeah. That’s the dude that is so hard to. But yeah, you do you want to reverse course? I said, find oneself almost opposite of daily learned realities, right? Ask the simple questions. What is it that I really like?
What is it that I really want? Those are tough questions to ask, but if you’re going to come out of survivor mode, this numbed out, non-talking non feeling state that you’ve fallen into for the last 20, 30 years, 40 years, then you’re really going to struggle with those questions. What is it? I really love about my life.
What do I really want? Just because that hasn’t been the focus forever. So those are really, really good questions. I mean, here’s a tip, I guess if, if you’re, if you’re an ACOA right. Understand that shame-based behaviors are strong. Talk about it and ask those two simple questions. What is it that I really want?
What is it that I really like, I almost feel like if you could, if you could trace through those three things, understanding of shame-based behaviors, probably it’s important to talk about it. And as you se two simple questions, what do I really like? What do I really want? You have made headway. You’re going to make a coming out of survivor mode.
I did that actually fresh off my brain. That way. Just thinking about all of the sharp, I liked it. Lean out to others. You want to come out of survivor mode. You need to begin thinking about like, what can I do to reach out and lean out to talk to you? And there’s that talk word, right? Do you not? Right?
It’s the opposite of cloudy black. Invite people into your home. Now you’re 20, 30, 40 years old. So you’re not going to have a sleepover unless you’re dating and you just want to hook up and then you gonna have somebody over. Don’t get me wrong. I get it. But what I’m saying is just like the little kid would go to other people’s homes for sleepovers, bring kids to your home, to sleep over.
Meaning let people in to what you’re thinking. Godly. How difficult is that under normal pretenses? Can you imagine the shame-based I bad. I’ve done something wrong, whether I realize it or not, but this is the way it feels. The, why the hell am I going to let somebody know? You know, me, whoa, a little bit at a time, as much as you’re able to.
Yeah. Lean out to people, find them that, that you can relate to and talk to and connect with. Don’t be alone. Don’t be alone.
[01:00:53] Adam Cloninger: This almost reminds me of some of the aspects on the show we did. I think it was the last 10 years or whatever. Last decade. Yeah. The stuff we talked about, like getting out of your comfort zone, doing something different.
I hear you talking about kind of along the,
[01:01:12] Chris Gazdik: yeah, it’s interesting Adam or you’re right, because it’s emotion management skills to a certain extent. And the, they do, you know, it’d be an interesting thing to, to kind of just take a, and maybe I’ll do this as a bit of a research project or whatever. I mean, take all of the last segments of our shows and just bleed them all together and see like, what does that really look like?
Because yeah, you’re right. There is a lot of overlap, you know w and particularly with alcoholic dysfunctional families, there’s a lot of hurt that you’re recovering from. So there, there are some overlap. It, yeah. Kids are going through funerals or they’ve got, you know, a loss or something, or, you know, when parents are getting divorced, you know, we tell the kids and people really realize, oh yeah, you got to make sure the kid knows it’s not their fault. Right. Well,
that’s a profound reality that it’s hard to convince the person that it really isn’t their fault now, theoretically, in the frontal cortex in their thinking they’ll agree very quickly. Oh yeah, I get it. It’s not my fault. Yeah. But in the spirit, in the emotion, in the limbic system, deep inside the brain, when you’re feeling these things, you don’t have a clue that it’s not your fault, like a lead.
Like
[01:02:26] Adam Cloninger: I did something that led to it.
[01:02:27] Chris Gazdik: Yes. They were yelling at me. They were yelling at me or about me. It, yeah. Remember Goodwill hunting. Do you ever see that, that movie, remember when Robin Williams was repeating the name? Matt Damon was his name. The actor Damon, if you wouldn’t ask Matthew, Dave, I know Matt Damon, Matt Damon.
Thank you, Matt. You know, when Robin, when he was
[01:02:50] Adam Cloninger: getting ready to say, he was
[01:02:52] Chris Gazdik: w when Robin Williams was talking to Matt Damon and their therapy experience, and he said, it’s not your fault about the sexual abuse. And he’s like, yeah, I get it. You know? And they went back and forth, back and forth, back and forth four or five, six times like Robin saying, no, really it’s not your fault.
And I loved that scene. It was so powerful because it broke into the emotional realm where Matt Damon touched base with the emotional feeling of holy crap. I really did think it was my fault. I didn’t even know it. So sounds simple really, but realize this is not your fault, nor your creation celebrate what survival mode helped you actually get through life and realize that it can be recalled.
You know, you can get well emotionally healthy wise and whatever, when you need these skill sets, you can bring them back, you know, cause it taught you a lot of really cool. You can be an awesome CEO. You can be an awesome friend, you know, but we want to relearn some of these things, but you can recall them, you know, when you need to, or want to combat the excessive need for acceptance from others dot, dot dot I wrote.
And I’m reminding myself by accepting self. Right? How easy do you think it is when you’ve had shame attack after shame attack, after shame attack month after month, year after year to actually like accept yourself,
[01:04:15] Adam Cloninger: that’d be difficult because some of them might think there’s something wrong with them.
The it’s kinda like the thing was said a minute ago, I think in back of your mind. Well, maybe I did something led to it. Maybe, maybe I’m the cause of it. So yeah, I can see
[01:04:29] Chris Gazdik: that. It, you might not even know that you don’t accept yourself. And I know that sounds psychological babble. Ooh, weird stuff, but it’s true.
Weird psychological babble. Woo-hoo weird stuff that you don’t even know that you don’t accept yourself. Yeah. Right. Because these things are just sort of, they’re automatic. These, this is automatic thought processing. In some regards, you, you don’t even think about this stuff. It’s just the way you experience things.
So check in with the fear of others in life. The fear may be the result of anticipating fear rather than something’s actually to be fearful of. It’s a little bit of a cognitive strategy. What I’m trying to say here, when I’m saying, you know, checking with a fear about other people, you might be anticipating things going wrong.
Kind of like you said, I guess in a logical way, why do you always see the negative in things? Well, because that’s what I’ve kind of experienced tune into that fear and combat that fear so that you’re not stuck in that kind of. Right. Then I just said, combat shame. I said, goodness, it is a huge part of recovery.
And I’m not even going to try to mention that because I really want you to tune in to episode 1 65. And, and we did a whole segment on just coming out of shame.
[01:05:44] Adam Cloninger: Yeah. I might have to watch the episode and the shame sucks. I’m gonna have
[01:05:47] Chris Gazdik: to watch that, but but I’m going to tell you, this is a huge part of what people are experiencing from these family systems.
You know, and the last one that was on my brainstorm anyway, was, you know, listen, I use it a lot in therapy. I’m sure you’ve heard the serenity prayer, right? God grant me the serenity to accept the things that cannot change the courage to change the things that I can and the wisdom to know the difference meant to me, you know, That is a profound set of wise thoughtful and really on point concepts that we struggle with just in everyday life, from a substance abuse family, we try to control things.
We cannot control way too much. Right. I’m aware of the time we’re going to take ourselves out of here. Adam did in your brain moving around. Like I said, I’m, I’m kind of aware of the idea that I can lose people. When I talk about survivor mode in, in therapy and in years past I’ve, I, I did this in 95 when I was just starting.
So I mean, years and years and years ago, I used to do more of this direct teaching in therapy than I do now. I hardly do at all. Now, how am I doing, how does this sound does this as this, given you a good, broad, at least understanding of survival mode and what, what, what you go through and how that sticks with you, right.
Is it confusing? A little.
[01:07:16] Adam Cloninger: Just at the beginning. Cause I didn’t, I didn’t quite understand where you were going with about the survival mode, because my mind was thinking different things. I guess it’s kind of almost like the not knowing the terminology thing, which I’m thinking about. You said that some of your colleagues kind of would get lost when you were talking about it or whatever.
That’s, that’s, that’s a whole different thing there. Cause I know it has a term, but for me not knowing what exactly you’re going with it. Cause I was thinking, you know, different things.
[01:07:45] Chris Gazdik: Yeah. I have thought about this a lot over the years and fundamentally I almost feel like it needs to be renamed. I never really cared to think about what I would rename it to, but you know what?
I think people really get tripped up or, you know, weirded out about is, you know, survival mode means you’re taking an action, you’re doing something to survive. And instead if you think of it, a lot of it is like, it’s all internalized and you’re just numbing out. Not doing things is kind of, and that, and that’s a weird, like the word and the actual behavior is a kind of a weird connection, I think.
So maybe we just need to rename it. All right. So listen, I’m gonna, I’m gonna cheat us out of here. We need to get out. I screwed up my time clock. So I don’t know if I ran over a little bit on this one as well, but it’s fine because I, I w I would’ve anyway, like if you’re listening to the show and you’re still tuned in, I’m really glad because I want you to understand, there are so many people that are in the ACOA category, adult, children of alcoholics, and.
You just are not alone. And the things that you probably learned in an ACO circle and your family, aren’t true. They’re lies. They’re not the way that typically people experience life. And so I want you to reach out Alanon is a great group to get into that’s for anybody that has alcohol drug, family, friends, even anybody that’s in your life that you have observed with this stuff.
And we want you to reach out. I want you to not be alone. I want you to realize you haven’t done anything wrong. Shame does suck and you can deal with it. So we have some resources, check it out, contact it through a therapist, sized.com email to reach out through a therapist dot com. This is one that I don’t want you to be alone, especially in the holidays when we have a lot of tough things kind of going on.
So promise we’ll have a little bit more of an upbeat message. Maybe, you know, then the stress stuff we deal with around. Family’s happy holiday season. And we’re going to talk to you soon next week. Take care of.