In this episode of Through a Therapist’s Eyes, we explore what peace really means for mental health. When people struggle with anxiety, emotional pain, or even suicidal thoughts, they often say they just want peace—but what are they really looking for? We discuss why many people come to therapy not to find happiness first, but to find relief from the chaos inside their minds. The episode looks at three levels of peace—external peace in our circumstances, emotional peace in our nervous system, and deeper existential peace that comes from acceptance and meaning. We also talk about why “peace at all costs” can actually create more stress when people avoid conflict, suppress emotions, or try to please everyone. Most importantly, we explore how real peace isn’t the absence of pain, but learning how to stop fighting ourselves and finding connection, compassion, and healing along the way.
Tune in to Finding Peace Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Think about these three questions as you listen:
- What does peace actually mean when someone is struggling with mental health or suicidal thoughts?
- Is peace something we achieve, something we protect, or something we learn?
- Why do people sometimes chase peace in ways that actually destroy it?
Links referenced during the show:
https://cbrt.nalandainstitute.org/pdfs/neff-germer-2017-self-compassion-psychological-wellbeing.pdf
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/mentalhealthtips
https://www.throughatherapistseyes.com/category/podcasts/selfmanagement
Chapter 26 | Patience is the glue for relationships, especially in mature relationships
Peace in relationships requires patience and emotional maturity.
Chapter 1.11 | Accepting things is a part of your emotional growth
Acceptance often creates the doorway to peace.
Chapter 1.21 | There is a need for balance
Peace requires emotional balance, not emotional avoidance.
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson – https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson – https://www.instagram.com/reidtferguson/
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Audio Podcast Version Only
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Episode #348 Transcription
Chris (00:01)
Hello, this is Through Therapist Eyes. We are back kinda sorta together again, but not fully. This is, what are we on man, March? You are enough, John Pope. You are more than enough, my friend. We have John Pope hanging out with us this week. How are you?
John-Nelson Pope (00:10)
Are I enough?
Yeah
I’m doing okay, thank you. Appreciate it.
Chris (00:22)
It’s been a minute
since the group’s been together. It’s been a minute. We’ve had a repulsive review. We did, we did. Yeah. So we’re going to be talking about peace today. We figured we had a lot going on last month. So you found us on March the 12th when we’re going to be talking about ⁓ finding peace in mental health, peace of mind, suicide recovery, and why peace at all costs fails. That is the full title for episode.
John-Nelson Pope (00:25)
Yeah, you’ve had some really heavy topics.
Chris (00:52)
where we usually have a panel of therapists. guess we got a off track man, Victoria and Casey, they got stuff going on. we just get Mr. John Pope and myself and Neil, if you feel like joining in, you pop up anytime you want as a whole.
John-Nelson Pope (01:08)
Well,
I think he would be most welcome.
Chris (01:12)
Always, always. We got Neil
behind the curtains though, usually is what he does. All right. If you’re fighting us for the first time on this platform, we usually fire up about 6.15 to 6.30 on Thursdays. That is a great way to join us on YouTube lives. We ⁓ develop insights, provide them, blow up stereotypes and myths, usually with a panel of therapists, personal time in your car or at home, but understand it’s not the delivery of therapy services in any way.
⁓ We have three.
John-Nelson Pope (01:43)
So there’s no
there’s no advice. Yes, it’s not. Well, you. Well, you do too, So I guess it’s we’re not giving we’re not doing therapy. OK.
Chris (01:46)
I mean, John, you give excellent advice though. I gotta be honest with you.
I stumped you on that one, didn’t I? We are
not doing therapy services of any kind, ⁓ What else do I say, John? You haven’t had your five-star jump for a little while, man. You know, I know.
John-Nelson Pope (02:04)
Five star rating.
Yeah, need to
definitely ⁓ whatever podcast ⁓ or provider that you get on, please rate us with five stars.
Chris (02:21)
I mean, you really need to, we need to work on this therapeutically. I feel like you might take that too personal.
John-Nelson Pope (02:26)
Yeah, I do. I’m in competition.
Chris (02:33)
And what happens to the competitive spirit when we do the shrink wrap up?
John-Nelson Pope (02:37)
It just kills me. The shrink. That just drives my anxiety level all the way up to the limits.
Chris (02:52)
All right, listen, we are licensed clinical therapists doing ⁓ real clinical work every day. And this is where we talk about what actually helps. ⁓ So this is the human emotional experience, which we really do endeavor to figure out together with you. That’s our deal. We don’t always have answers. We don’t always have perfect advice, but we have a lot of knowledge in this platform that we offer you.
So we do ask you to share this with a friend. A great way to do that is if you hear an episode that really kind of clamors in your mind that would be helpful to somebody, shoot a share button. That really makes it that they will listen because you referred that to them. Please help us grow so we can help more people. This is a topic that I really was…
John-Nelson Pope (03:40)
The more you know,
the more you grow.
Chris (03:43)
Absolutely. ⁓ That was random. Wait, what?
John-Nelson Pope (03:49)
No, no, you just, you rhymed. And so I joined in and I said, well, that’s a good way of remembering that is that the more that we know and experience and through a therapist’s eyes, the more we grow.
Chris (04:06)
It makes sense. All of sudden it makes sense. I’m introducing this topic though, John. So we had a heavy month last month. Um, we talked about emotional abuse. And then our panel talked about emotional neglect. And then, man, I don’t know if you got a chance to check it out. We had a amazing interview Neil and I did with Dr. John King on male sexual abuse. And I know that strikes your heart. We’ve talked about it on the show before.
John-Nelson Pope (04:14)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (04:36)
And not a lot of platforms even mentioned it as a thing. Right. Uh, and so he shared his powerful, powerful story about, you know, male sexual abuse. And then I guess we continued in March, Neil, cause we published part two, you know, in the first week of March. And now we’re, setting this up to kind of recover, man. need some recovery. peace be with you, Mr. John.
John-Nelson Pope (04:36)
Yeah.
No, not at all. Yeah.
Thank
Chris (05:08)
Well, I thought you’re, you’re so in call holocism, your pastorship is supposed to say, and also with you.
John-Nelson Pope (05:16)
Right. Well, I was quoting from John when Jesus appears to the disciples in the upper room.
Chris (05:26)
Yeah.
Okay, well, I missed that one, We’re not, we’re not, we’re not clicking in sync yet, John. You and I. We gotta get our mojo back.
John-Nelson Pope (05:34)
I hadn’t done this for a while, so thank you. ⁓
Peace be with you and also with you.
Chris (05:42)
And also with you, you only got to say
one of them brother. Wait a minute. Let’s do this right now. Now we got it. We got to knock this out. Who’s going first and who’s going second? Please. got to. Okay. Hey John, peace be with you.
John-Nelson Pope (05:51)
I’ll go second.
and also with you.
Hi to Bonham.
Chris (06:01)
POTTY BONO HE ADS IN WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN
John-Nelson Pope (06:03)
Yeah,
means peace, a good peace. Okay, gladden. Yeah.
Chris (06:06)
Good piece. Okay. You’re super
smart, aren’t you?
John-Nelson Pope (06:12)
Yes, no, I’m not. I just live so long.
Chris (06:18)
That’s a good point.
listen, on the show we give you three questions to think about as we go through the show. So finding peace in mental health, peace of mind, suicide recovery, and why peace at all costs fails. So we have a lot to cover in all of that. The three questions are what does peace actually mean when someone is struggling with mental health or suicidal thoughts? The second question, is peace something we achieve, something we protect, or something we learn? And then thirdly,
Why do people sometimes chase peace in ways that actually destroy it? The third one is provocative. The first one is kind of like, okay, it gets us going. But John, I want to ask you, is peace something that we achieve, something we protect, or something that we learn? Because there’s a lot to this word peace. What’s in you?
John-Nelson Pope (06:51)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
I’m going to
go back to ancient wisdom a bit, okay? In terms of—and we’re products of the Western Greek thought, but we’re also, because of our Judeo-Christian background, we’re also products of that understanding of peace. There’s two different understandings of peace. And in the Greek world, the ancient Greek world, peace was a static.
thing is like a renek peace. ⁓ The word static, stable doesn’t change. When we all get to heaven, we’re all going to be on clouds and we’re going to be playing harps and nothing’s going to change. All right. Maybe not. ⁓ The ancient Hebrews said, peace is a process and it’s and it continues on and it continues on
Chris (07:40)
It’s static as in like stable solid.
love that maybe not
John-Nelson Pope (08:06)
forever. In other words, we’re always achieving some peace. And actually, that is more comforting, because you don’t, if you don’t reach it necessarily at an endpoint, like at the end, ⁓ you will be continuing on and coming together and
developing and integrating. So you may have peace at a moment, but it will also be a different time in the future where you will start having even more peace. Okay, so it’s a process.
Chris (08:47)
Okay, I’m following you, but that’s deep.
John-Nelson Pope (08:50)
Yeah, it is. You know, I think so. So, I think it’s healthier to not have a stable but stagnant peace, but rather a peace that’s dynamic and growing and continues on for eternity.
Chris (09:11)
Interesting so in the way of that question goes is that something that we achieve something we protect or something that we learn? I mean we don’t achieve it then you would say because you don’t want to just arrive at a place that’s static
John-Nelson Pope (09:23)
we’re achieving
it. We are achieving it, but we don’t, yeah, but we don’t achieve it. You see, that’s the limitations of English. Our language is that if you go back and you go to more of the ancient languages, it goes into a process of becoming. You know, Jesus says, be perfect, like the Father in heaven is perfect. Okay. It means becoming perfect.
Chris (09:26)
ING
John-Nelson Pope (09:52)
And so you’re becoming ⁓ in peace. And so that’s part of the process. I didn’t mean to go off in that.
Chris (10:01)
No,
it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s good. It’s really good because I think this is a, this is a, it’s a topic that, you know, it’s interesting because I, I chose this as a, as a followup from the heavy shows that we did. Right. And I did that on purpose because you know, there’s just so much that goes into emotional abuse, emotional neglect, and then sexual abuse and the heavy topics that we had, and you know, as well as I do, John, all the things that we talk about in, you know, our day to day work with therapy that
that people look for these affirming, these comfortable spaces, recovery in a lot of ways relates to peace. That’s a spot, but I think that’s misunderstood, greatly misunderstood. So I mean, you look at these language, you mentioned limitations of our language, peace of mind. We started with our, and I did that on purpose, thank you for trying to play along, the peace be with you and also with you, right?
John-Nelson Pope (10:39)
a safe spot, a safety harbor. Yeah. Yeah.
huh. And also we
Chris (11:00)
something
John-Nelson Pope (11:00)
can.
Chris (11:01)
that’s in the Catholic faith that I grew up as a kid with.
John-Nelson Pope (11:04)
But that means also a reciprocal thing. And so you bestow peace, but you also receive it. And so it’s in relationship, it’s in fellowship. Yeah.
Chris (11:09)
Yep.
But it’s relational. Yeah.
Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s interesting that you, yeah, you’re jumping on that because you know that and you can experience that. I don’t think that people realize that a lot, but that’s part of the piece that that’s part of the points that we want to make today. But, but, but, to go on, right? Like, you know, rest in peace. You know, we use these phrases, keeping the peace, making peace with some, but with someone or something, you know, we used to have the peace pipe.
John-Nelson Pope (11:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. But you’re making peace, which is different than a static. So that involves being able to be in a relationship with somebody and you’re actively pursuing it. And you cannot. Right. And you cannot. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (11:44)
Ever the peace fight?
We do a peace offering. We have a peace treaty. Right? I
am doing a little foreshadowing. This is my own phrase that I think I created. Sometimes I create things, John, and somebody’s already created it. so, you know, peace at all costs is no peace at all. Now we’ll come back to that towards the end of the storm, towards the end of show. But yeah, you know, so, okay, John.
John-Nelson Pope (12:17)
Right. Wow.
Chris (12:27)
What is peace then? I don’t understand. Somebody might be saying. What is peace?
John-Nelson Pope (12:39)
I think, ⁓ like in family counseling and couples counseling, it is a dynamic in which there are boundaries that move back and forth. And so you want to try to achieve an equilibrium of peace, of ⁓ mutual acceptance of one another and willing to
So I’m putting it in the context of a relationship is that there’s that, again, that radical acceptance of the relationship. you know, and if you’re in a relationship where it’s where you’re putting everything in 100 and 200 % and the other person is just going through the motions, there’s no peace. There’s no relationship. Yeah.
Chris (13:32)
man that doesn’t work I you that. ⁓ I can tell
you that.
John-Nelson Pope (13:39)
Yeah, so…
Chris (13:41)
That’s hard.
John-Nelson Pope (13:42)
It is hard. Yeah. So.
Chris (13:46)
Here’s a big news flash or a big kind of flow out. And I wouldn’t really know how I would have answered that, myself, because it’s a little bit of an elusive idea. What is peace, really? We use it all the time. I just said all these phrases and stuff. I think I like the idea of peace. It seems soothing. It seems comforting. ⁓
John-Nelson Pope (13:48)
Okay.
Chris (14:14)
I want to be peaceful, you know? But that, I don’t know if we really understand, you know, because I want to be happy also. I want to be calm. Isn’t that what peace is? You know, rest in peace. I want to be calm. I want to be happy. I want to be comfortable. There’s no, I don’t want to be dead. Definitely don’t want to be dead yet. Although I don’t want to live forever. That’s for dang sure.
John-Nelson Pope (14:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. You know,
my understanding of peace, when I was 17 years old and seeing the peace demonstrations, we did, yeah, we had a peace demonstration at our high school, Manatee High School, yay. And ⁓ it was, we were very idealistic, and we said there shouldn’t be any violence or anything of that sort. And
Chris (14:51)
Okay.
John-Nelson Pope (15:08)
and all that. So we kind of tried to emulate ⁓ Dr. Martin Luther King’s ⁓ piece, his concept of peace.
Chris (15:18)
Yeah, but I guess, right.
John-Nelson Pope (15:21)
But my concept of peace has changed a lot in 50 years. Yeah.
Chris (15:28)
How so?
John-Nelson Pope (15:31)
I was so disappointed that things got violent, of course, I would be disappointed today with that, obviously. But it’s kind of given me pause to think about that peace is the definition of peace. People have in this country 230 million different
330 different million ⁓ concepts of peace. And peace is not…sometimes our concepts of peace are naive. When I was 17 years old, ⁓ I had a lot of shoot hoods about peace. Shoot hoods? Yeah. S-H-O-U-D-L-D-S. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (16:22)
Shoot hoods.
I know where you’re coming from.
John-Nelson Pope (16:31)
And ⁓ it was idealistic. And I was looking through rose-colored glasses. And why can’t we not just get along? ⁓
Chris (16:43)
Right. Right. Well, you’re into
the relational thing a lot. And I think there’s a lot to that. And that’s definitely a part of First of all, we have a YouTube comment, Carolyn, you’re absolutely right. You know, she says, first of all, you know, is peace something we achieve, something we protect or something we learn? And she says all three. And I think, you know what? It’s an excellent answer because it really can come out being all three. You know, but in my big thing, when we think of
John-Nelson Pope (17:06)
I think so too.
Chris (17:12)
Peace of mind, peace be with you, rest in peace, keeping the peace, making peace with something that’s engaging. There’s inner peace, you offering peace, peace treaty so that we engage. I feel like a lot of peace is really, came across this with the show prep. Otherwise, like I said before, I wouldn’t have really realized it this way. Is it not maybe the end of internal conflict?
Think about that. Peace. Don’t be in conflict internally.
John-Nelson Pope (17:46)
peace. That means,
okay, so there’s an aspect of Zen in that, and that is that you observe, ⁓ you become a non-anxious presence for yourself and you can actually… Does that make sense?
Chris (17:55)
Yeah.
Right. Think about that.
Go further with the idea of a non-anxious presence is a string of words that we use nowadays. Peace being the lack of internal conflict. You’re talking a lot about the relational, but go further with non-anxious presence.
John-Nelson Pope (18:23)
I’m talking about individual,
that you’re going to be non-anxious presence for yourself. And so there could be the radical self-acceptance of yourself. Instead, I’m in a process of becoming. And so I can step outside of the turmoil and the going from one extreme to the other. And I can actually say,
Chris (18:30)
Okay.
John-Nelson Pope (18:49)
I can accept myself for that way. Hence comes as a result of that peace, inner peace.
Chris (18:57)
Well, okay. Yeah, I follow all that, but I would ask you, how do you offer something that you don’t have? The relational aspects of peace, agree with you in a lot of ways. Well, when I got to really deeply thinking about this, peace being all three of those things, right? Something that I protect internally to myself. Something that I learn. Right. Something that I learn inside learning.
John-Nelson Pope (19:18)
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that’s key that you have to do that. Yeah, yeah.
Chris (19:26)
And then I achieve, I arrive, maybe not statically, like you said earlier, but I arrive internally. Now I can relationally go in with other people. And I didn’t think about it, but I love your comment there with a non-anxious presence. That’s peace. That’s peace.
John-Nelson Pope (19:44)
That’s
right. Yeah. And the thing is, I was talking to ⁓ a man today, he was actually a psychologist, and ⁓ he had a stroke and it affected the bokeh area of, bokeh’s brain, the aspect that governs Okay. Yeah, it’s spelled differently, but it’s an Italian guy.
Chris (20:05)
I was going to say, what is Boca in the brain, man? I know Boca Raton. I know Boca Rice. know Boca.
John-Nelson Pope (20:13)
But anyway, he died a long time ago in the 19th century. But the point was that ⁓ he said the only way that he got his ability to speak, because that controls your speech center, was that he had this strong volitional urge to make it, ⁓ to be able to speak. And so
even though he couldn’t speak, he was able to figure out a way to communicate. And I’m saying that this is so in order to achieve inner peace, one has to basically be very intentional about it. And it is a part of one’s will, I think. ⁓ So I don’t know. What do you think? So yeah.
Chris (21:05)
No, absolutely. I
was just connecting with you on this idea of, yeah, the internal part. Look, I think about this from a therapy perspective and you think like people want to come to therapy to feel happy. And that’s what you hear like marital counseling. I wasn’t happy. So I went on like, or I know, don’t lose it, John. know, right?
John-Nelson Pope (21:17)
huh.
god, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Chris (21:31)
You know, or, or I just, you know, I want to be well, people kind of do that. And that’s, I love that when people are talking about, I just want to feel, you know, more whole or, you know, grow and learn skills or what have you and whatnot. I think many people enter therapy, maybe not even realizing it because they’re seeking happiness in these other things, but what they’re actually really kind of getting at, I think is peace. mean, inner peace, John, people are feeling desperate. They’re feeling.
John-Nelson Pope (21:54)
huh. And a piece.
Chris (22:01)
in a state of chaos. They’re feeling overwhelmed. It’s like a war that’s just grabbing on internally, you know, and what we’re talking about after we hit horrible experiences of sexual violence against us or emotional neglect, is horrible. Emotional abuse and physical abuse, we want relief from this chaos, not even necessarily the offender.
John-Nelson Pope (22:22)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (22:31)
We weren’t really from that too, domestic violence. But the hard feelings that just beat us up, the pain, the internal suffering, that’s what peace is about.
John-Nelson Pope (22:41)
Yeah.
Chris (22:47)
Getting out.
John-Nelson Pope (22:47)
Can you have
peace and still have suffering, experienced suffering?
Chris (22:53)
Probably. Probably. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope (22:57)
Yeah. Because there was, No, no, I was, I gotta say the reason why this is right up my alley today is because I had just finished an audiobook on death and dying in various cultures and religions in the world and practices and in terms of, and there’s a sense that when a person was
Chris (22:58)
Yeah, you know, go ahead more with that. I think you’re right.
John-Nelson Pope (23:27)
people’s fear of dying, for example, is basically the idea that one is very anxious about the cessation of existence, the extinguishing of existence, or the pain that is associated with dying. And so one finds that inner peace
is by stepping outside of oneself and observing that as a process and saying, I’m on for the ride. You know, I’m doing this. It’s ⁓ like Kubler-Ross in the various stages of death and dying. And though we know that they don’t happen all at once or have to be sequential necessarily, but the idea is that there’s ultimate
⁓ acceptance of that and that one gets that ability to have
Peace.
Chris (24:32)
It’s, it’s, it’s awesome. Right. I fast forward. Usually I have extra content for all the shows that we get to, I never really get to it all. It’s because we get into awesome conversations, but a lot of what I get, don’t get to is my book quotes and stuff. Chapter 11, man. And I’m excited about saying this out loud in this part of the show, because it fits perfectly. You’re talking about, and you even said the word accepting. So chapter 11 on my through a therapist, I was re-understanding your emotions and becoming your best self.
John-Nelson Pope (24:40)
Yeah.
Chris (25:02)
You know, through a therapist size, go check it out. You too can own the book, John. Anyway, Chapter 11 is accepting things as part of your emotional growth. That’s the chapter title. You know, accept it. Yeah, it gives you peace. Exactly. Right. Peacemaking, peace protecting, peace developing. All of that. Yeah. You know?
John-Nelson Pope (25:14)
Dad gives you peace!
So you’re piecing, you’re peacemaking.
Yeah.
Chris (25:31)
because you just
John-Nelson Pope (25:31)
You’re too good.
Chris (25:31)
accept things. things that you cannot control, might as well accept, right? Otherwise,
John-Nelson Pope (25:37)
Right.
Chris (25:40)
You can see on YouTube, I’m banging my head into the microphone. Cause I can’t control things. And it, you can just continue banging your head into the proverbial wall and you’ll lose your mind. That’s maddening. It’s chaos. It’s non peaceful. Right? So yeah, I love what you’re saying is that the internal conflict, sometimes if we just, here’s another one. Let go, let go of things that you can’t control or things that hurt you or.
John-Nelson Pope (25:44)
Yeah!
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris (26:09)
things that you’re resenting, let go of your anger. John, what’s the result when we, when we do those things?
John-Nelson Pope (26:17)
You let go, you see yourself in proper perspective in the world and in the universe. You have a peace. Okay. Yeah. Okay.
Chris (26:25)
and you have
It’s
so, I don’t know, I don’t think even to be honest with you, John, I don’t know, have you lived in peace a lot? I thought I did.
John-Nelson Pope (26:43)
me.
well, see, it’s growth. And that’s what I was bringing out. My concept of peace when I was 17 is very different than my concept of peace when I first got married, ⁓ when I had three children, when you know, when my wife got
deathly, deathly ill and had multiple surgeries and thought she was going to die and had a crisis of faith. And yet there was that sense that, you know, I’m on it for the ride, I’m in it for the long haul, I’m committed. And there was peace, more peace. And acceptance, yeah, acceptance that you’re a part, that there’s a greater purpose, maybe.
Chris (27:29)
Accept it.
John-Nelson Pope (27:37)
And that’s how I understood it, you know?
Chris (27:40)
There’s a lot to it, yeah. It’s, you know, like I said, I thought that I lived a lot of my life in peace and the more that I think about it, the more that I wonder, you know, that internal battle, I’m sure that I’ve fallen into the trap like many humans, you know.
John-Nelson Pope (27:50)
Yeah, I
thank God I don’t have the piece that I had when I was 17. Yeah, well, I mean, I don’t want to go through that. I don’t want to go through just having really blinders and just seeing what I wanted to see. It’s much better.
Chris (27:56)
Okay, what do you mean by that?
John-Nelson Pope (28:17)
to have a broader understanding of peace and acceptance of other people. again, I’m sorry, I’m going to relationships, that’s, but internally, ⁓ you make peace with oneself ⁓ that there is. ⁓ When I went, for example, I
Chris (28:28)
apologize.
John-Nelson Pope (28:44)
hurt somebody’s feelings or I thought I was really right and I wanted my way or the highway or something like that. Then I felt guilty afterwards and I’m going through this and ⁓ I didn’t want to apologize or anything like that. Every time I apologized or every time that I tried to rebuild something, I got more peace.
Chris (29:11)
Yep. Exactly.
John-Nelson Pope (29:14)
Yeah, that’s.
Chris (29:15)
You know, it’s
funny, was just listening to you and I was thinking, know, here’s a real example of peace that I was impressed with. And it does go along with the idea of the serenity prayer. God grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change, especially. But also the courage to change the things that I can, because that also gives peace to understand that I can change things. And then the wisdom to know the difference.
You know, there’s a, there’s a guy, ⁓ El Capa, he, he would climb El Capa. forget the name of the documentary. I just recently rewatched some of it. So was this guy that’s a free climbing, freewheeling, something like that is the, is the title. Anyway, he climbs rock faces, John, and he’ll, he’ll, he’ll just climb them without ropes. It’s free climbing. Right?
John-Nelson Pope (29:55)
Yeah
Okay, now you
know there’s parts of my anatomy that are just like, ⁓ yeah, trippy. Yeah, yeah.
Chris (30:10)
Yeah, trippy. Cause you’re going up a freaking mountain and you don’t have any gear, you know?
And, and, this is, this is what he did. And it was just like, wow. And he’s world renowned for it. He again, he climbed El Capa, which is a really massive cliff somewhere out west. It’s out west. Yeah. Of course it’s in Rocky. But I heard an interview, John, this is the demonstration of peace and how, wonderful it must feel because his wife was into.
John-Nelson Pope (30:25)
Is that the one in Yosemite or what’s out west? Yeah, yeah, big rock place.
Chris (30:39)
And he asked, she asked like, why, why does he do this? She’s like, I don’t, I don’t know. It’s just, it’s just passion. It’s what, it’s what he’s always been geared into. And the interviewer stopped and then asked the wife like, well, have you, mean, like, do you ever worry about him? Like, you know, he could die. You ever ask him like not to do that? And you know what she said? She said, that I would never do that.
John-Nelson Pope (30:49)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (31:08)
It’s not my job to change him. I worry about him falling and all of the other, but I also understand that he needs to live his life and to want him to do something different. is not, it’s not about me. It’s about loving and supporting him. That’s peace. There’s no conflict. I want him to do it. I don’t want him to do it. I want him to do it. Can I tell him not to do it? I shouldn’t tell him what not to do.
John-Nelson Pope (31:27)
Yeah.
So this piece, Unpeace, would be
would be
Chris (31:44)
Trying to
control him, trying to tell him what to do. Control. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It’s, like, how many marital conversations, how many parenting situations, how many times with politics, how many decisions do we strife over? How much anxiety do we worry with? John, I really did. I thought I had a healthy lifestyle in a lot of ways.
John-Nelson Pope (31:47)
That was the word I was looking for control. Yeah.
Chris (32:13)
And even the more in real time that I talk, talk about this, I’m kind of holy crap, I’ve been living on peacefully this whole time. Yeah. It’s so tough to really be in a state of non-conflict with yourself, with your thoughts, with what you worry about. Peace.
John-Nelson Pope (32:20)
Yeah.
But
that’s a dynamic process that you’re talking about. You’re describing. Yeah. So you may have at your stage of development of your ⁓ moral and spiritual and let’s just say psychological development, you may have peace, a type of peace, but you’re striving and aiming for more authentic peace, a more lasting.
Chris (32:34)
Really.
deeper peace.
John-Nelson Pope (32:59)
Deeper peace.
Chris (33:00)
I don’t think you realized it, but you just transitioned us wonderfully well to the three levels of peace, right? So, so think about this. have external peace, life circumstances feel stable. That’s the piece I thought I was in a lot of ways. Marriage is stable. Kids are growing. Business is okay. Money’s stable. You know, it’s like external peace, life circumstances, you know, feel ill secure.
John-Nelson Pope (33:04)
⁓ okay, good.
Yeah.
Chris (33:27)
Secure is probably a good word, but external peace is fragile. Life always disrupts it. And then the second level, I came across this in show prep. You have an emotional piece. So the nervous system is regulated. I think this is the internal conflict piece, Emotional piece, have no internal, everything, you’re not worrying, you’re not ruminating.
John-Nelson Pope (33:46)
Right.
Chris (33:53)
You know, you’re you’re you’re able to flow in life. You have flexibility, right? This is this is where therapy does much of our work. We really work with emotional peace. John, there’s a third level. There’s a third level. Any idea?
John-Nelson Pope (34:01)
Yeah.
That’s the essence of meaning, peace, Existential, yeah.
Chris (34:14)
existential peace. This
is where someone can say, look, I’m not perfect. Life’s not perfect. There are real problems. This is where someone can say, I’m not fighting stuff I can’t control. I’m in a place of acceptance. I understand deeper meanings. I am forgiveness full. People offend me and I forgive multiple times over.
I don’t hold anger compassion for other people, even when they’ve hurt me and harmed me. This existential piece in what you talk about, John, is, is I think what we, what we strive towards. Did we just put some meat on the bone?
John-Nelson Pope (35:02)
Yeah, I think so. was just thinking, I just had an experience yesterday where I lost my existential piece. I actually… Yeah, yeah, yeah. I missed… I was trying to merge. I was going to see my parents and I kind of merged, tried to… I saw that I had to turn left.
Chris (35:12)
boy, what happened to John’s existential piece? Tune in next week. We will tell you.
John-Nelson Pope (35:29)
and I didn’t want to do that and so I tried to merge right and the guy right behind me an old guy, an old guy, just and he and his wife they were in this old truck beat up truck and he laid on the horn over and over and over and again and I said I love Jesus I love him. ⁓
Chris (35:34)
K.
Ha ha ha.
Wow
You can be honest, John. John, you,
John, did you say a curse word?
John-Nelson Pope (35:58)
⁓ no, I shot a bird. ⁓
Chris (36:01)
⁓ You non-verbally
said a curse word!
John-Nelson Pope (36:04)
Yeah,
I did. And I was so upset. I said, well, and my heart was racing and all of that. And then the person behind me, or the person beside me, let me in, and I waved and peace returned. Peace returned. But, you know, you can lose it.
Chris (36:23)
Peace returned.
You can lose it is the point, right?
John-Nelson Pope (36:33)
Right, but you but you can go back to it. That’s just like this. Yeah.
Chris (36:37)
Listen,
people don’t live in peace. It’s may peace be with you for moments at a time. Thank you. We’re finally getting corrected. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it, it, I’m glad you’re pointing that out. We can lose it and then regain it. That’s why we want to protect it. You know, I mean, it’s.
John-Nelson Pope (36:58)
Yeah, that
is exactly why you want to protect it. then, you know, so an existential piece is, is that you can reflect on that. And you can, you can say, this is something that I want to preserve, I want to enlarge and continue to grow and make that piece that existential piece, not just a little part of you.
but in golf here.
Chris (37:30)
Ooh, now you just said a big word, engulf. That sounds scary to our engulfment insecure folks in the EFT model, right? Like, whoa, but it’s okay. Can it be okay? Does that represent a little bit of internal conflict? I don’t want to be overrun. I don’t want to be overwhelmed. Don’t control me. Don’t tread on me. All these thoughts, right? But if you let go of that fight, peace can engulf you.
John-Nelson Pope (37:39)
the ⁓
You’re right.
Chris (38:00)
And that’s a good engulfment. It envelops you. You get surrounded by, yeah, I’m sorry.
John-Nelson Pope (38:05)
I went through
years
ago, and I know I tend to go religious and all that, ⁓ but I was at a retreat many years ago, and we did exercises, religious retreat, and it was an Episcopal priest that led it, and there was a sense that we got in such a state through discernment and guidance and participation.
⁓ intentional, where we allowed the peace to engulf us. And, ⁓ you know, I still have memory of that because I came off the mountain, you know, basically, at spiritual high, and I did lose it at times, but other times, I remembered what it was like, and I went back. And you can always go back.
Chris (39:07)
Interesting, yeah. When you reflect and when you engage. You know, it’s interesting that you just said that. Like I haven’t done a lot with it, John, but I came across, you know, some trainings and learned a little bit about hypnosis. I’m sure you probably know similarly. So in a trance state, that’s what happens in hypnotherapy and whatnot. You go into trance, not something weird, crazy dreamy state. It’s just like you’re in a super real. Yeah. ⁓
John-Nelson Pope (39:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, no send Gali or anything. No recipe and
stuff.
Chris (39:33)
You’re in a calm state. You’re in a state of mind where you access your subconsciously a whole lot easier or whatever, but it’s kind of hard to go into a trance state at first until you learn how to do it. understand. But interestingly enough, I remember kind of going into a trance state with the guy that was training me. And I kind of pulled back out of it. I was really bummed. was like, he stopped. Like I wanted to do it. But then I started to describe the story.
John-Nelson Pope (39:44)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Chris (40:00)
And the
instructor, Dr. Neal Newfield, you know what he was doing, don’t you? He was kind of, he was ready to induct me into it. Because when you relive, when you recount, you re-emerge into a hypnotic state exactly like peace.
Now, interestingly enough, as a young man, I didn’t want to lose control. So I stopped the trance state. I’m like, I know what you’re doing. I know what you’re doing. No, no, no. He’s like, would it be so bad? was like, because it’s, it’s surrender. Isn’t it? Is another word.
John-Nelson Pope (40:18)
Thank
Yeah, it’s surrender. Yeah, it’s being washed over, inundated. liquid lard is how I described it, describe it. And like here, it’s gold and it’s like being a libation, like being poured over with golden oil that’s just warm and so ⁓ life-affirming.
Chris (40:33)
How much can we surrender? Yeah. Allow.
Do we allow that to happen? I mean, I think there’s so much resistance. And you know my newest favorite topic that is the biggest challenge mankind in the history of mankind has faced. We have so much resistance because we have so much tension, so much mental fragmentation. The rapid development of technology fragments the hell out of us. We can’t.
Meditate, my God, I can barely, you know, people could barely focus ⁓ on a show for more than a half hour. You know, I do a one, five and 10 year plan. Thought leaders tell me, no, people can’t think 10 years from now. It’s a one, three and five year plan. That’s all people can handle. I reject that, by the way. It’s nonsense. We need to be careful about keeping ourselves in a place of internal acceptance so that we can achieve
John-Nelson Pope (41:32)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Chris (41:54)
moments at least or periods of time where we can just be in peace.
That’s a bit of a goal.
John-Nelson Pope (42:04)
Yeah, I think that’s part of it. This is that also means living, being able individually internally to let go of shame and guilt that we beat the crap and unforgiveness of yourself, we beat the crap out of yourself. And that you have to say, okay, just accept it. That this is this is
Chris (42:24)
Mm-hmm.
John-Nelson Pope (42:35)
something that you cannot, you yourself cannot perfect. It’s almost something that is beyond self, but by letting go of it, you actually do look, you actually do find that self-acceptance.
Chris (42:49)
I think so. Let me change. Let me switch gears on it, John. Yeah. Let me, let me switch gears for a minute and say, let’s talk about a phrase that came to my mind many years ago, honestly, before I wrote the book, which by the way, John, you too can own through a therapist size, re-understanding emotions and becoming your best self. How did do? How did I do? Did I do all right there?
John-Nelson Pope (42:50)
Yeah, I mean, it’s paradox paradox. Yeah.
Okay.
Exactly. Wonderful book.
It’s outstanding. You did and you’re repeating it seven times. Okay. And you repeat the narrative.
Chris (43:20)
Through Therapist Guys has an awesome book. Seriously though,
you know, one of the titles in there, one of the phrases, honestly, I think it’s a title. If it’s not, should have been. It may be in the revisions of this project. ⁓ Peace at all costs is no peace at all. Okay? I said that at the top of the show, and I can tell you had a little bit of reaction. What does that mean to you? What does that do in your spirit when you hear that phrase? Peace at all costs.
John-Nelson Pope (43:39)
Yeah.
Chris (43:50)
is no peace at all.
John-Nelson Pope (43:54)
And you put an S on it, didn’t you? ⁓ In other words, if you try to force it and you try to control it, it’s ephemeral, it slips through your fingers. And so you may say, this is what your concept of peace is. And as soon as you try to grasp it or mold it or control it,
it disappears. so peace is something that the part of peace is that you ⁓ let go of the need of controlling it. It comes to you and it’s a gift and you accept it without any type of
of writers on it or any type of add-ons, it’s something that you see and you accept it. I guess when you’re in, let’s say you’re with a loved one and you are in a conflict with that loved one and you want to say, I’m going to make this work and I’m going to keep making it work.
do whatever I can to make it work and I would ⁓ go to hell and back to make it work and the problem would be.
Chris (45:31)
Because hold on, that’s
peace at all costs. And the problem would be…
John-Nelson Pope (45:33)
Yeah.
that you actually would deny the gift of real peace. that is that there’s a possibility that your concept of peace, that that person may not want to reconcile with you, and you can never do it, and you have to let go. And then you have to find what you’re left with once you let go is really an inner peace and a calm.
that is authentic and is dynamic and is growing.
Chris (46:12)
Boy, you did a lot more with that than I thought. No, that’s an awesome, awesome progression. You’re right on point with it. And it’s actually, you know, I was listening to you and yeah, I wasn’t thinking at first and then in the middle I was like, yeah, we can join that together. And then as you went on, I’m like, oh yeah, that’s absolutely it. It’s just so poetically described by you, John. Thank you for that. Because I really created that line in my mind in therapy with people and it.
John-Nelson Pope (46:15)
I’m sorry.
Chris (46:40)
I feel like it speaks to our third question of what you’re thinking about as we talk today, right? Like, why do people sometimes chase peace in ways that actually destroy it? And you just masterfully described, you know, the idea of what happens when we want peace and we chase it, but we do things that actually conversely destroy it, you know? And so my original idea with this is like, you know, peace at all costs, meaning, you know, like
People that are codependent. You’re trying to make somebody else OK. You can’t do that. I don’t want to have conflict, so I shove my feelings aside or compartmentalize them and just make believe I have peace by agreeing with everything you say. That’s not peaceful. Or how many ways can we do this, like suppressing your emotion?
John-Nelson Pope (47:37)
Yeah.
Chris (47:39)
I don’t want to have the difficult conversation. Or I’m so emotional and I can’t even stand you anymore. just, feel numb. People pleasing all over the place.
John-Nelson Pope (47:51)
and I do that. You know,
that’s been a tendency for me because, you know, it’s not peaceful. There’s no peace in that. And in some ways, having all this crap that happened to me in my long life has been actually a very good thing. And that has given me a greater sense of peace than I had before. And part of it is having to forgive people.
Chris (47:55)
It’s not peaceful.
Yeah?
John-Nelson Pope (48:20)
that have absolutely no ⁓ ability to self-reflect or say I’m sorry or whatever and instead of insisting that I have to get an apology or something like that, let it go. Let it go. Frozen.
Chris (48:32)
Yeah.
That’d go, what I thought you
were going to say is I’ve had to forgive people that don’t deserve to be forgiven. Isn’t that the way a lot of people think though?
John-Nelson Pope (48:43)
yeah well yeah
yeah yeah yeah yeah that’s that’s
Chris (48:48)
That doesn’t work people. Me telling you like,
that doesn’t work. You, the listener, you have to change the way that you look at this. You can’t keep on giving your piece away. That’s what you do when you go silent. That’s what you do when you have hard conversations. That’s what you do when you shut down or numb out or drug out. You’re literally, you feel like you’re creating a non-conflict state, but you’re…
You’re not developing, you’re giving your piece away. You’re not developing in the internal piece. We’re talking about it those are real practical measures that we just mentioned.
John-Nelson Pope (49:28)
Yeah, and I would also caution because ⁓ you can see it on some of the influencers or you can see it, well, you know, ⁓ I need to confront you, you need to be able to know this and they don’t do it in love or anything like that. If you don’t do it with a sense of humility and love,
Chris (49:48)
⁓ golly, Nuts. Nuts.
John-Nelson Pope (49:57)
then that person probably is not going to accept what you give to them, even in love and all of that. But at the same time, you don’t have to let it tie you up and bound you. And then you can have your own peace. And you guard your peace, you keep your peace, you make your peace for yourself.
And it’s not selfish, it’s abundant, it’s extravagant, but…
It’s it.
Chris (50:33)
John, this is a
good time for our segment. don’t know if you need to grab your notes and look at the notes section on there, but we do practical questions. This is why you’re a therapist. You do this all day long. You can come up with practical questions to help people. This is where we talk to you, you, the listener. kind of reach through the computer screen, the phone there. We reach through your little speakers and we’re talking to you by asking practical questions.
John-Nelson Pope (50:35)
Okay.
⁓
God. All right.
Okay.
Chris (51:01)
kind of give you an idea as we’ve talked about this today what we’re looking for. By the way, then we want to talk a little bit about suicide before we get off here. I know, right? Suicide? Yes. Yes, we do. So practical question I have for you is that when you say that you want peace, we’ve talked about how you can destroy peace in these ways that we just talked a little bit practical about. There are oftentimes I say I want to have peace, but I want to say
John-Nelson Pope (51:05)
Yeah.
Yes.
Chris (51:31)
What are you maybe trying to escape? Because there’s something that’s going on that you haven’t accepted, something that you might be fighting about, something that you might be upset about, something that’s causing your peace to be given away or maybe robbed from you. But when you say that you want to have peace, I am curious, what might you be trying to escape? John, you might have a practical question.
John-Nelson Pope (51:56)
Is there something in my life that I’m avoiding that is preventing peace? And I think about that because my nature is such that in my own experience, I will avoid if I don’t want to step on toes. I want to confront or not confront, but challenge. And sometimes about myself.
and am I avoiding looking at something? And in order to achieve a sense of inner peace, of self-acceptance, is to be able to look within oneself and say, here I am, warts and all, and it’s okay because I am a student of life. I am participating in
Chris (52:33)
you
John-Nelson Pope (52:47)
that I can go in and if I don’t succeed the first time when I avoid something about my personality that I don’t like ⁓ necessarily think is efficacious, I can just go back and try it again and keep working at it and have patience with myself and immense acceptance of the process. And I think that way I can stop avoiding and instead of being overwhelmed,
begin a process of that acceptance that we all need, that I need, to become a better person or a more complete person.
Chris (53:28)
Yeah, you know, thank you, John. I like this practical question to the listener segment that we’ve started because you know what? It’s what we do in sessions, You know what I mean? We really ask people these types of questions and go about it with those types of explanations. So if you’re listening to show and wondering what therapy is like, we just tried to give you a little bit of a taste on a really powerful issue such as peace. But let’s go on with the last segment we want to talk about.
John-Nelson Pope (53:33)
This isn’t as bad as the last one. Yeah, I know we do it in session.
Chris (53:57)
It’s a serious one, you know? I mean, we just, we just spent the month of love, John, my birthday month of February, Valentine’s Day. We talked about emotional abuse. We talked about emotional neglect and the horrors that physical trauma, such as sexual violence perpetrated against you, especially men, you know, and like, wow. The bottom line truth is that suicide is a big part of all of
John-Nelson Pope (54:07)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (54:27)
Suicide is real. As a matter of fact, I learned something in that show, John, that I want to share with you. I might be able to teach you, because John taught me that, do you know the statistics of first responders are wicked high with their childhood sexual abuse experiences? And it draws them into being first responders.
John-Nelson Pope (54:27)
Yeah.
I did not know that, but I’m not surprised. Now that I think about it. Yeah, yeah, it does. It’s like PTSD. Yeah.
Chris (54:58)
It sounds it makes perfect sense, doesn’t it? You know, all of the adrenaline, you know, especially police officer stuff, you know, a lot of times there is. Now, 100%. Yeah,
100%. It just it feeds into right. So there is a high percentage and I honestly I did not know that I’ll I thank John profusely, not John Pope, John King, who was on our show because.
John-Nelson Pope (55:19)
thing. So he is the king.
The king of all stuff. Yeah.
Chris (55:26)
John is the king or the pope. don’t know, Neil. Oh my God. just lost it. Yes, you’re right. He is the king and you’re the pope. The king, John King, taught us that honestly. And it’s something that I’ll take with me for the rest of my career to be able to clue into that, to wonder, to be aware. Like you’re a first responder. The statistics are really dangerous that you’ve had previous trauma, specifically and especially sexual trauma that…
John-Nelson Pope (55:32)
This is John King, yeah. I am the Pope.
Chris (55:55)
cannot be talked about. So we need to talk a little bit about what happens with suicide and how to get out of that because, John, I don’t know, man. I don’t know of many other more powerful descriptions of losing your peace than finding suicide as the only option. Yeah. It’s the antithesis, which is a fancy way of saying, you know, the opposite of feeling
John-Nelson Pope (56:15)
Yeah, I would agree. I would agree. ⁓
peace. Because one, there’s a nihilism, is the absence of peace would be the suicidal, ⁓ right, reality of suicide, because it says I would rather not exist than to ⁓ go through this pain anymore, to endure.
Chris (56:40)
and reality of suicide
Here’s
the thing that I want people to understand. There’s a few lines that I have learned that cuts through a lot of the doubts or wonder. People will say all the time, John, me, particularly family members, how can my brother have done this? What was my mother thinking? I don’t know why my friend ended their life. Well, here’s what happens. They basically
It is the antithesis of peace, right? They basically realize that they are in such great internal pain. Terrible, terrible pain inside. And they know that they cannot continue living with this pain. Now, all of these are lies, by the way, but that’s the first one. I’m in pain and I cannot continue to live with this pain. The second lie is that I have tried everything. That’s a key word, right?
John-Nelson Pope (57:50)
and
yeah, everything.
Chris (57:51)
You can’t try
everything, but I’m in internal pain. cannot continue living this way. Secondly, I’ve tried everything to even lessen. I don’t even want to get rid of, I just want a lesson. I just can’t live in this level of pain. And I have not been successful doing that. Now, even though I’ve tried everything. So thirdly, suicide is the only option. Because of the logic of the combination of the first two lives.
John-Nelson Pope (58:19)
So it’s a logical
fallacy, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
Chris (58:21)
Complete logical fallacy. Yeah,
because it’s not based on truth. But that’s how people get there. It’s a desperate feeling, John. People do not usually want to commit suicide. They don’t want to take an action against themselves. It’s not desirable. They really fall into the trap of thinking it’s the only option I have. This is it. There is nothing else. That’s when it really becomes dangerous.
John-Nelson Pope (58:42)
Yeah.
That’s a that is no exit. And that’s an existential concept. I won’t go on who talked about the no exit thing, but it’s it’s basically one is a construct that one makes. And it could be a number of factors, external factors, environmental.
internal factors that sort of thing but you feel like you you don’t have any options and so you have no way out period and
Chris (59:18)
Right. Yeah, the
most dangerous thing is when somebody is feeling this way. And if you’re ever feeling this way, even an inkling of like this, do not remain alone. Don’t do that.
John-Nelson Pope (59:30)
Relationship,
you gotta have. Yeah. ⁓
Chris (59:35)
Yes, sir. Speak
it again.
John-Nelson Pope (59:39)
Yeah, you have someone that you can ⁓ talk to and reach out to. Yeah, and they’ve made it very simple now. You can actually go and call a crisis line and 988. Just go right to it. And there’s somebody there.
Chris (59:55)
988
Although that’s not a suicide
prevention hotline. Somebody told me that the other day, they thought it was. Yeah, you call 9-8-8 for any mental health reality. It is not just suicide. Yeah. I was actually surprised when I heard that the other, just the other day.
John-Nelson Pope (1:00:03)
crisis.
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I was, ⁓
yeah.
I think part of it is that if one reaches out, then there’s hope, I think. In other words, but you have to reach out. That’s the thing. You may think you have no other options, but you can…
Chris (1:00:39)
Well, you
reach out, but you find out that there’s a switch. Here’s a little bit of the switch. There’s a shift that begins to happen. It isn’t a pursuit of the pain to stop. This is going to sound crazy at first, but stay with me. You talked about radical acceptance not too long ago. That is a part of the DBT program. That is a part of the borderline personality disorder. Heavy suicidal folks rely on as a specific skill to really recover. It’s radical acceptance.
John-Nelson Pope (1:00:48)
Yeah.
Chris (1:01:06)
You begin to actually accept forms of, this pain that you experience. Then you put, but peace begins, you begin to reduce judgment of yourself. You increase connection with others. John’s been talking about. you find, you find meaning in this suffering. know, John, you talk about the crucible, a crisis of faith or in religious terms, or just like, you know, you’re down and out, you you get, you’ve heard this expression.
John-Nelson Pope (1:01:22)
bit hammering.
haha
Chris (1:01:36)
I’m just sick and tired of being sick and tired. That’s when you shift. That’s when you say, it’s not that I just want the pain to stop. I want peace. I want to escape from this never ending attempt to control something I can’t control. And I actually accept the pain. I’m not going to touch myself. I’m going to… There you go. Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope (1:01:51)
Yeah. The serenity prayer again. Yeah. You
know what I’m hearing from this because I’m seeing a thing in our stuff and maybe we’re just, they always talk about ministers and there’s only, the minister only preaches one sermon with a lot of variations and I’m thinking, yeah, maybe it’s a lot
Maybe it can be summed up with a serenity prayer, but there’s a lot of flourishes and understandings and angles to see it. It’s like a beautifully wrought crystal that you can see the different colors and spectrums as a result of light shining through it. And so you get all the nuances and shades and maybe
That’s the sense that you can find peace is you don’t have to just follow a recipe book. You can make your own peace. You can see it. You can tune yourself to it. You create it. You create your own peace. But it’s a real thing. Right.
Chris (1:03:05)
Create it.
I love that. no one can do it for you either too is probably
another factor there. ⁓ Yeah, you know, we need to get out of here, I think, John, and begin wrapping up. We arrive at your favorite segment of the show, the shrink wrap up. This is when we have fun sort of, you know, reviewing the show or topic today and in a fun, friendly competition, Neil gets to determine who did the best shrink wrap up of.
John-Nelson Pope (1:03:24)
huh.
Chris (1:03:37)
through a therapist size episode 348. Peace in mental health, peace of mind, suicide recovery and why peace at all costs fails, generally speaking. John, you wanna go first with the shrink wrap? All right. Hit it, man.
John-Nelson Pope (1:03:52)
Yeah, yeah, I think so. think
that that that peace is something inner peace is something that everyone, everyone can achieve. ⁓ As long as they understand that it’s dynamic, it’s changing, it’s growing, it’s extravagant, it’s beautiful, it’s multicolored, multi-layered, it’s something that
⁓ despite the barriers that one experiences and despite the hardships, actually not that despite it, but because of this, going through the process of life, one’s peace, inner peace is something that continues throughout one’s life. And one, the goal is, is going throughout
all of one’s life and seeking it and accepting when it comes and as it comes and that’s all.
Chris (1:05:05)
Alright, listen, there’s a lot of pain in
There’s a lot of hurt that you have endured. More than likely in your life, you’re like the rest of us, you’ve felt broken. Probably multiple times. That creates so much pain inside, that creates so much internal turmoil. But here’s the thing, this is why I love this show. This is why I love this episode. Because you can get up, you can run. Not from the fear, not from the pain.
John-Nelson Pope (1:05:27)
Mm-hmm.
Chris (1:05:38)
It’s accepting. You can run towards this. So get up off your couch. Get up out of your house. Get out of your pity spot, your stuck spot. Get out of your pain. Run towards freedom. Run towards forgiveness. Run towards acceptance. Run towards the things that create a peaceful state that you can protect, have, endure. There isn’t anything that can hurt you in that state of mind. There isn’t anything that can end you or stop you. It’s a powerful, powerful lesson.
to learn the existential peace that we talked about. And you too, I’m rooting for you to find that, go towards that, run towards that. You can develop and have and enjoy your peace.
Alright, Neil. Brother.
Neil (1:06:27)
I think
with that part and I think with based on what Chris said, as Chris and John said, I think they’re both very poignant to the point, but I think I would say that, you know, Chris, I think yours was good today. I think you get it today because it was very uplifting, very positive. think that’s the, I think effort or the energy people need to put towards finding that piece. So I think that was, I liked yours, Chris today.
Chris (1:06:54)
Appreciate that.
John-Nelson Pope (1:06:54)
Yeah, I think
yours was a little more concrete, Chris. I think that’s struggling.
Chris (1:07:01)
Well, it’s a powerful topic, you
know? I mean, it really is. We hit hard shows recently and I love that. John, I appreciate you doing this show with me. know, it’s first of all, it’s really nice to have you back. I haven’t had a conversation with you for a while. I just love talking to my boy, John, you know, but yeah, it’s a good concept and I think there’s a lot of fear in the world. And yeah, it just came to me as I was listening to you, John. was like, man, what do we need to say? I’m like, let’s, this is what we need to run towards, you know?
John-Nelson Pope (1:07:14)
Yeah.
Chris (1:07:32)
Alright, well that is episode 348 in the books, man. It’ll be published on Tuesday on Spotify. a friend. Listen, we love doing this show for you. And stay well, because we’re going to see you next week. Take care.