We did it!!! The show has made it to Episode 200. We introduce the new panel of therapists to accompany Chris. Each therapist is at a different part of their career and they each focus on different areas. This means we will have some great conversations about the different topics of the show regarding mental health.
To start off we will talk about EMDR and how it is used to help deal with traumatic experiences. Is it really the answer that some say it is to help patients deal with emotional distress?
Tune in to see EMDR Through a Therapist’s Eyes.
Listen for the following takeaways from the show:
- Stay tuned over the next few months as we are growing the TATE Community – memberships, new merch, and other streaming options.
- First change is the introduction of the TATE Panelists that consists of Chris Gazdik, John-Nelson Pope, Kasie Morgan, and newcomer Victoria Pendergrass.
- Just want to let everyone know that if you are struggling with suicidal tendencies, you can dial 988 from your phone to speak to someone.
- What is EMDR? Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing.
- What do the experts think about this practice?
- What is the consensus from the Panel about EMDR?
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
How to get ahold of the Panelists:
Kasie Morgan
@kasiem2054
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kasie-morgan-ms-lcmhc-qs-9b728b47/
John-Nelson Pope
https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-nelson-pope-a805a214/
Victoria Pendergrass
@thetoripendergrass
https://www.facebook.com/tori.brown1
Intro Music by Reid Ferguson
https://reidtferguson.com/
@reidtferguson
https://www.facebook.com/reidtferguson
https://open.spotify.com/artist/3isWD3wykFcLXPUmBzpJxg
Episode #200 Transcription
Chris Gazdik: [00:00:00] Hello everybody. Welcome back to Through a Therapist’s Eyes. We have taken our little sabbatical, we’ve taken our break, and we have arrived. At episode 200, kind of a bit of a milestone of feeling really good about it. This is a special episode two though, because as we have been putting on the social media platforms and various things that we’ve changed our total format, so we have gone roughly from a a cohost situation where it’s me and one other person to me in a panel.
So I am just a part of the group here and it’s so cool cuz I think you’re really gonna love the way that, that this stuff all goes out. So, as always this is through a therapist eyes, like I said, I like to say, where you get personal insights directly from a therapist now therapists, multiple therapists in your [00:01:00] own home and in personal time in your car.
We still like to see the world through the lens of our therapist, but be aware not to deliver therapy services in any way. As always, we’ve got the five star reviews, the Apple iTunes, all those stuff help us out, so please pay attention to that. We got a lot of cool things happening. Contact@throughatherapistseyes.com.
We’re kind of gearing up. Maybe we are really gearing up for 2023 in the next few months, but contact it through a therapists eyes is the email to get to us, to interact with us. This is still very much gonna be the human emotional experience that we do endeavor to figure out together, which is together with you, together with your friends.
On interactive sites and together with all of us. So Mr. Neil man is still with us behind the scenes. He’s got the mic. We wanted to kind of talk a little bit about, you know, some of the things that we’ve got going on. Neil, I’m gonna turn it over to you because I found out stuff a little bit ago that I think I don’t know about.
So, , what, what do we got, man?
Neil Robinson: Well, we’re ramping [00:02:00] up, like you said, the next three months are gonna be getting more interactive with the community. We have some things lined up for some memberships. Get you more behind the scenes of the show. More interaction. We’re gonna be doing more merchandise. We’re talking about taking some of these quotes that Chris thinks is very important for mental health.
Give you some things that you, And fun by the way. Yeah. And fun. You know, stuff that you can give to your friends, your, your family, you know, for yourself. Like I said, the goal is to really grow this community grow the platform and really help as many people as possible. So we’re gonna have a private Discord server.
We can actually talk to the host and the co-host and all that. We’re gonna have
Chris Gazdik: cohost Casey, co-host cot cohost, Go ahead. I knew you wanted to get outta there. It’s the co-host. Yes. More if you, if you followed the show. She loves to make fun of me people with the way I say cohost.
Neil Robinson: So, yeah, so, so the goal is to just really.
Interact with us, we wanna interact with you. So yeah, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram are the kind of the big platforms. We’re gonna be pushing those next three months and like I said, by the start of 2023, you can become a member. [00:03:00] And we would, we have like unofficial therapist. Would we have graduate student?
Yeah. Therapist and licensed therapist. We gonna have different tiers. Yeah. Yeah. . So we’re gonna have fun with that one. Provisional. Your provisional. The thank you. Yes. So, so yeah, so, so stay tuned for that. And like I said, just
John-Nelson Pope: supervisor.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Ooh, that should be the the highest day top one.
Neil Robinson: Okay. We’ll, we’ll adjust it.
This is why we, this is why it’s not out there. Yeah. We have too many opinions, so, but yeah, we look forward to building this community with you guys.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. It’s gonna be a lot of fun. And I appreciate Neil, your, your effort and energy and oh by the way, he just had a birthday, had happy birthday
Kasie Morgan: to you.
Happy birthday
John-Nelson Pope: to you. Happy, happy birthday
Chris Gazdik: dear.
John-Nelson Pope: Happy, happy
Chris Gazdik: birthday to you. All right, but birthday Mr. Neil. Really do. Appreciate you and all the things that you’ve done, man, guys, you understand, He’s behind the mics, [00:04:00] he’s behind the scenes, but he does a lot to, to get this thing going to to do what we’re able to do and what we’re able to bring to you.
So very much appreciative of him. And I will say publicly, before we really get going, guys, I am so appreciative of your Time effort, energy, and passion because I love mental health. I love substance abuse. This field that we all have endeavored in together, to me it’s a big deal. So I really appreciate you, Victoria, for being willing to.
To engage in, in a, in what is a, a new and weird format with podcasting. Casey, for, for you staying with us. Sticking with us. Being with us, and, and, and adding what you add, which is, I’ll just say unique charisma. There you go. Yeah. And John, for you really in, in being willing to, to take your time with all the different things that you’ve got going on, and we’ll find out more about those in you, but I, I just appreciate all three of you.
Yeah. Happy to be here.
John-Nelson Pope: I’m glad to be here again.
Chris Gazdik: Again, you were here before,
John-Nelson Pope: weren’t you? That’s right. Yep. [00:05:00] When we were back over in Belmont. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And my wife has a mobility animal named Bob the dog, and he’s a collie. And you all interviewed Bob. It was
Chris Gazdik: super cool, man. Oh, you gotta listen to that episode.
Episode 50. I love Dog. Neil’s telling me it was super cool because we, we, we, we did a whole show in service. Dogs got hate mail.
John-Nelson Pope: No, you did not get hate
Chris Gazdik: mail from Bob . But literally we got to see Bob, the dog in action as our show was recording because he began to sense that your wife was, was, what was it?
She was beginning to escalate or,
John-Nelson Pope: Yeah, her pain level goes. And she’ll start rocking. And Bob the dog senses that even before we sense it. And, and so he said that’s enough. And yeah, so we had the, he
Chris Gazdik: stood up and he paid attention and he was like, Okay, well, but, but it’s cooler than that. It’s not that she started [00:06:00] rocking and everything.
Did dog dogs like smell stuff and
John-Nelson Pope: stuff, right? That’s right. Definitely. And even, and he’s been known to And he was trained for this, is that when she starts to get wobbly on her, on her feet, he’ll grab her by her forearm and, and guide her guide. Yeah.
Chris Gazdik: Wow. Wow. So if we get to see it in action guys, that’s cool’s real live action on episode 50.
And guys, if you’re new in finding us here at this new episode 200, like we have so many cool topics with, you know, we have, and we’ll still have some guests, you know, that will join us and it’ll probably be me and the guest one on one, cuz This’s just too many. Things going on for all of us to interview a guest.
There’s a lot of things in here. Yeah, there’s a lot of things.
Kasie Morgan: Wires and things.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. West Virginia, West Yoda. We gotta get the backgrounds together. I, I need, I’m used to being under the. WVU flag, but we’re gonna get those things worked out. But no, we, substance abuse, mental health, depression, anxiety, specific diagnostic [00:07:00] stuff, current events, things that people are worried about, things that people are wondering about, new things on the scene.
We got this guy who’s an academic guy, Mr. Pope. I’m thinking about calling it the Pope. I, I DW does that, Pope, you feel about that? Pope John. Oh my God. He’s also Pope John. Pope John. What
John-Nelson Pope: I was a navy. I was a Navy chaplain and that was a big joke was oh Pope John
Chris Gazdik: here. The Pope. The Pope,
John-Nelson Pope: John Pope.
And I had a Roman Catholic commander and he just loved saying, Well, I, I tell the Pope what to do. .
Kasie Morgan: That’s awesome. I need some Prada shoes though. Cause the Pope wears product, so. Oh,
Chris Gazdik: I did not know that fancy product. Is that what you said? Product. Product. Yeah, that’s brand
John-Nelson Pope: handbags. Very
Kasie Morgan: expensive. A fairy luxury item.
It’s a handbag. It. Whole thing. You should
Chris Gazdik: I Google Clarks? I don’t really do brands. I don’t know you. Although that’s not true. I’m wearing a job. Para pants [00:08:00] and Columbia shirt actually. So, mm-hmm. getting a little better. Anyway, Okay, So what we’re gonna do today is I have a news event, current news event that we’re gonna talk about emdr.
So we’re gonna get to a little bit of clinical stuff today. And I’m really gonna be fascinated as this is a, a super cool example to see like what your clinical minds do with a topic. That is, was in the news. It was actually John on the skeptic out of the universe. Yeah. We share that love for that podcast.
Right. They were skeptical. They were Well, okay, don’t let it out of the bag. You’re totally right. But it, it’s, it’s cool that, that we can get your all’s clinical minds on what this is and how this stuff works. And that’s gonna be a good example. But first we gotta get you guys introduced a little bit to the, through a therapist eyes tribe around the nation.
Victoria, now that we’re up and going, I won’t make you anxious beforehand, but I told you girl, you are around the world now here. Yes, yes, yes. We have. We have downloads
Victoria Pendergrass: all over. I think I’m okay with that. You can
Chris Gazdik: handle that. I think so. . It’s fun. [00:09:00] So let me ask you guys just to go around and, and tell the.
You know what got you into this’s? Usually guys, by the way, they have show notes, so they have no show notes. This is just genuine, real and on the spot, which is one of the things I value is genuine interaction, which is what this show is gonna give to you. So these are all new to them. So I’m, I’m curious, what, what really got you into this stuff?
What, what really had your heart in the beginning of starting your career? Which is a good way to add to, We, we have a unique, and I think very cool spread, right? And, and what I mean by that is we have Victoria who is arguably able, we’re able to say, starting her career, like you’re, It’s very fresh.
Yeah. You’re in the beginning. And, and that, that means just fresh outta academics and learning and all the new new basically Yeah. Stuff. Right. and we got Casey. That’s the first half of your career. I think that’s fair to say too, right? Mm-hmm. , you know, and me in the second half of my career. And, and John is [00:10:00] towards the end of your career.
Sunrise,
John-Nelson Pope: sunset.
Chris Gazdik: I was afraid to say like the end of his career. Cause it sounds so horrible. Sun
Kasie Morgan: we’re the best, John. Oh my God is awesome,
Chris Gazdik: isn’t he? Yes. Yeah. So we had a broad span that I think is gonna give unique As you like to say, Casey, multi-generational impact, right? Yes. Yeah. You still think you’re millennial?
Kasie Morgan: Yeah. I mean, by definition I am.
Victoria Pendergrass: I mean I can look it up for, I’m a cus I’m right now, I’m on a cusp.
Kasie Morgan: You’re
Chris Gazdik: on cu I’m a cusper, the cusper of the millennials. If you’re wondering what we’re doing, we had a show on generational stuff and I just don’t buy that. I, I think she’s totally with us in the millennial or in the Gen X stage.
We’re gonna let that go.
Kasie Morgan: We are not close in age. Chris
John, I’m gonna, I’m gonna need the help. Least 10 years. My senior 10 years, my senior, that’s
Chris Gazdik: kind of close. Sister
John-Nelson Pope: I am on the, the low end are the young end of boomers and [00:11:00] there’s boomers that are pushing 80. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. So
Chris Gazdik: that’s so true. Cause my age is
Kasie Morgan: relative. Right? It’s a mindset. I’m in mine
Victoria Pendergrass: case.
Exactly. I grew with Casey.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. So I think what got me into this for, to start us out is that I really, you know, knew actually I was weird in high school. I knew what I kind of wanted to do. I know.
Kasie Morgan: Right. Oh, I thought you said like I was weird in high school period.
Chris Gazdik: Well, I was weird in high school period.
And I was also weird in that I knew kind of what I wanted to do and just the idea of psychology growing pains and some things like that were some influence. That was a TV show for younger people. And That’s right. He wore sweaters. I’m aware He wore sweaters. He wore sweaters. Yeah. Well, okay, I’ll leave it be so, Kirk.
And, and my substance abuse. I just got lucky. Right? Uhhuh? . Like I, I kind of taught a DUI class early on in my career, which kind of caught me into some of the substance abuse field. So what, what, what got you guys going? I’m curious. Hmm.
Kasie Morgan: So I was a teacher for six years. I don’t know if the world knows that, but I was, first, [00:12:00] the first six years of my career, I was a teacher.
And I taught a class that was termed at that time, positive behavior. Supports always, always taught behavioral disorders. Mm-hmm. and stuff. Back in the day was behavioral and emotional disturbances is what it was called then. Ooh. And so my classroom was always the behavioral kids and I had a class of young men that had come from incarceration or institutionalized settings like psychiatric rehab, treatment facilities, and they were integrating back into regular public school.
And at that time, education took a turn with a program called No Child Left Behind when I was a teacher. Oh, I remember that. And so I was no longer highly qualified to be the teacher of record in this. And I remember telling the administrators of my building, if you get them out of the self-contained environment, they will drop out of school.
And because the first, I didn’t know what I was doing at the time, but the first two hours of the day I was basically holding group and we were talking through like what they experienced the night before, how they had like saw their [00:13:00] brother get shot. Like the things in the rough areas of Pinder County, North Carolina, where this was located and.
They ended up transitioning them out. I wasn’t highly qualified to be the teacher and when the last kid dropped out, like I predicted because we put ’em in regular population. When the last kid dropped out, I went home and said, I, like, I, I’ve gotta do something different to have an effective change.
And so that’s when I looked into graduate school programs and went back to become a therapist. So Cool. That’s how it started
Victoria Pendergrass: for me. That’s cool. Yeah. Victoria, what about you? Mine’s kind of a, a downer I guess, but Towner. Yeah. That’s funny. . Well, I would guess it’s like, Not so great start. I mean in high school my best friend was murdered.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. It was like national news. Her name was Phia Barnes. It was a, a whole thing. It definitely was. Yeah. Yeah. She it happened in Baltimore. And so my, during that time, my school counselor had like a huge impact [00:14:00] on my life. Okay. . So I knew that I wanted, like before that I knew I wanted to help people.
I just kind of like wasn’t sure how that would look. Yeah. Like the path that that would look like. And so then after that happened, I knew I come from generations of teachers, but I knew I didn’t want to be a teacher. . Yeah. So you didn’t
Chris Gazdik: do another field that doesn’t pay you anything.
Kasie Morgan: Exactly.
Welcome to human services.
Victoria Pendergrass: Right. So then I that’s kind of how I got started. And then once I was in college, I kind of realized like that I, I didn’t wanna do kind of the research side of. psychology. I wanted to be more like, yeah, like working with people one on one and like hands on and stuff. So then that’s how I got into like the counseling and so then, you know, I did school based.
They start frame up for you. Yeah. I did school based therapy for the first three years of my career cuz I liked being in a school. [00:15:00] But being able to be in a school and focus on mental health. Yeah. Not have to do all the extra stuff that school counselors do. I mean they do, they do a lot. And so
Chris Gazdik: That’s cool.
You know, we just did a show, I could see a show already popping up in my brain Victoria about, you know, the school based counseling and the, the. Terrible deficiencies that we have with all of that. Oh, yeah. And, but the developing reality, and I know that’s what you’re doing now was we were able to get Casey to help us out when we did that show a little bit, but we need to get back there and kind of talk about what’s needed and all of that.
Because boy, you’ve had a personal experience with that, right? Yeah. And you’ve been providing that. So that’s, that’s like stupid. Cool. Yeah.
Victoria Pendergrass: That’s, So that’s kind of how I kind of end up
Chris Gazdik: here. Love it. Mr. Pope, man, what about you?
John-Nelson Pope: Well, I went to seminary and Columbia Theological Seminary in Decatur, Georgia.
I’m a Presbyterian minister. And we were required back in those days to take a lot of pastoral care [00:16:00] courses, group counseling individual counseling. But we were. There wasn’t licensure in that sense back in those days.
Chris Gazdik: It was on 1922. Yeah. Sorry, Sorry, but sorry, I’m not the, I’m not the oldest person.
I feel so much better. God, we have someone
Kasie Morgan: else to,
John-Nelson Pope: I am a young baby boomer. Yes, I’m young. Yes you are. But, but I ended up, Eventually going into the Navy as a chaplain. My wife and I went to Subic Bay in the Philippines, had our family there. I had people I was a Brigg chaplain. I did the marriages and the marriage counseling, and I was noticing that there was a lot of drug and alcohol problems.
Indeed. Yeah, indeed. A lot of corruption and all of that. And, I had actually had somebody that was having a lot of problems with substance abuse, [00:17:00] alcohol use disorder, and he pulled machete on me and, and a coup and he had a couple of service weapons and I. Yeah. Yeah. Just a few. Just a few.
Yeah. He was really and I basically talked him down not knowing what I was doing at all. Yeah. Kind of natural. Yeah. And I, I remember I left the I, I had actually had, Some short patrol people accompany me cuz I was the chaplain on duty and he had called for me. I didn’t know that he was gonna pull this machete on me or anything like that.
So, and I waved him in to waved the shore patrol to come in and, and help me and helped. And he, because he’s waving this, this machete around and saying, Why didn’t you help me, Doc? Why didn’t you help me Doc? Oh my gosh. And I. I’m Chaplain Pope . I’m not a talk. I’m not a doc. And and you know, I waved them in.
They had [00:18:00] left. And so I had to basically go in and, and what
Chris Gazdik: is it with the security people that leave? I had a similar, not as dramatic, but a similar situation dealing with the crisis guy in a mental health outpatient setting. And like the security guy only went down the hall and on the other side of the building and left me with the.
The person. I’m like, Geez. Okay. Yeah. What is
John-Nelson Pope: that? I, I have no idea because boy, I, You should have heard me say some words and then that sailors
Chris Gazdik: use, I would love to hear you say some words that sailors use. Gosh, I don’t wanna hear them. Okay. Well, .
John-Nelson Pope: But, but anyway, so I, I, you know, I, and then when I was transferred to the Naval Hospital in Jacksonville, Florida, that’s when HIV was going on, and I needed to get more training.
Mm. And we were dealing with a lot of service men and women that had contracted aids, and that’s the downer part of it. So [00:19:00] and I felt like I needed to be more prepared, and that’s when I started more of my education. So I guess around 2009 I had a worked with somebody that was having trouble needed to go into to get some.
Social Security and he had been turned down, he had als and he had been turned down three times. And I kind of worked with the vocation rehabilitation counselor in the town that we, I was living in. And he happened, the counselor happened to be at Texas a and m and Corpus Christi, and he told, The, the program director of the, of the counselor education and supervision about the work that I did.
And the next thing I know, I’m packed up by our stuff and we moved to Corpus Christi and three years later I graduated and I, I was teaching counselor education and supervision.
Chris Gazdik: Wow. Yeah. [00:20:00] So I, I know you’ve had a lot of journey and, and done a lot of things. Yeah. I took most of the
John-Nelson Pope: time here and I didn’t mean to, but I’ve lived longer.
Kasie Morgan: We all is forgiven pop. All given Pop John.
Chris Gazdik: Indeed. Indeed. Well, okay, so what is your therapy jam and what is your experience? You hit a lot of your experience there, Victoria. I’m curious, like from your angle. Yes. You know, being newer nto the career and I know. As a younger l clinician, right? You. . I mean, part of what happens with mental health is we deal with so much.
I mean, you really almost have to have a generalist practice. I, I think people, you know, they like to say, I specialize in this, or I specialize in that. And my thing is, like, a perfect example is like substance abuse. Like there are people that refuse to do anything with substance abuse. Mm-hmm. and I, I’m sorry, that’s gonna come into your office.
You know yeah, you’re gonna see that. Yeah. And so, you know, but that being said, I’m curious what your jam is, what your experiences, What my jam is, what [00:21:00] Your therapy
Victoria Pendergrass: jam. Yeah. I mean, like I mentioned earlier I’ve done school based therapy. This is my fourth year as a clinician. And so I’ve done the first three years as a school based therapist in an elementary school.
So, I mean, if you were to ask, I would say my jam is. Kindergarten through fifth graders, . I didn’t know. So Awesome. Yeah. But yeah, and then now I’m actually in a middle school and a high school, so even like you mentioned, I mean there’s definitely substance abuse even in like, I mean, everything touches everything.
Touches everything. Oh my gosh. And
Chris Gazdik: therapy and stuff. I would imagine you have to know how to deal with families and family working couples, right? Yeah. Like,
Victoria Pendergrass: yeah, exactly. I saw that. I’m just working with, you know, little Johnny, the kindergartner. I’m working with him and. You know, mom and his step, and then his dad and his stepmom and then, you know, So yeah, it’s definitely like a lot of, not just, you’re not just working with kids, you’re working with their, whoever their guardian is, their siblings.
Chris Gazdik: Like I always [00:22:00] enjoyed when I worked with kids, you know, the family dynamics that come along with it. There’s so many family dynamics that you have to begin managing, particularly blended families. Right? Yeah. And I’ve definitely
Victoria Pendergrass: seen like a lot of siblings . Yeah. So then I’m not, I’m getting you. both sides of like a story.
Mm-hmm. , kinda like I’m hearing the same story twice. I’m getting like one side on the other side,
Chris Gazdik: but Absolutely. And the whole family has Yeah. Different angles. Casey, what’s your real jam?
Kasie Morgan: Trauma? Yeah. Yeah. I like really anything that has to do with how. The brain and body are impacted and working with what is,
Chris Gazdik: You can’t wait to hear why you’ve beamed with the emdr, but we’ll get
Kasie Morgan: there.
We’ll get there shortly. Nervous system resiliency. I’ve brought that up several times. I use that now. Yeah, a lot more. So for me it’s, it’s, you know, I think what has happened to you is very important. But’s most important to talk about where you are now and where you wanna be. So posttraumatic growth, post traumatic growth.
That’s, I, that’s a term. Yeah. And I have a really big love. [00:23:00] I love couples. Like, I love to do couples, so
Chris Gazdik: boy, the Pope has a big breathing space there. What’s that?
John-Nelson Pope: No, it’s just couples. So those are challenges. I, I do the, the trauma too, but a lot of people, first responders, military.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. I, I figured that was your jam. Yeah. For just say a little more about that.
John-Nelson Pope: Well I was introduced to it again when I was at Soic Bay in the Philippines. And because it was always 36, you, you would be on, on duty for 36 hours at a time and you did get sleep. And so it’s not just the traumatic events, but it’s not getting sleep, it’s not having Sure.
You know, a a, a sense of rhythm. It was people not getting sufficient rest. And so that’s where I became interested, but particularly, [00:24:00] When the, the Gulf War and then also O E F O I F with Iran and Iraq and,
Kasie Morgan: Victoria wasn’t alive during the Gulf War. No, that’s
Chris Gazdik: not true. That’s absolutely
Kasie Morgan: the truth.
That is the truth. She was not alive during the, the, the first, the first Gulf War Holy
Chris Gazdik: Desert storm. Not alive. Not alive, Doesn’t. I’m definitely cannot
Kasie Morgan: be. She was definitely not alive during the girl whole. She’s, I
Victoria Pendergrass: was born in 1993 and 1993 is the Gulf
Chris Gazdik: War was over. Dang. He was way
Kasie Morgan: done so, So basically she was alive when the Panthers became a franchise in the nfl.
She was born the same year. The
Chris Gazdik: Panthers goodness would be the local
Kasie Morgan: Charlotte the Panthers in Jaguars during the nfl Victoria was.
Chris Gazdik: Dang. That’s
humbling.
Victoria Pendergrass: That’s, that’s why I’m a lifelong Panther fan. Hey. Literally
Kasie Morgan: literal. It was literal Warn their inaugural season. It’s, it’s
Chris Gazdik: was fan. Oh my goodness. You are the Panther fan.
Okay, [00:25:00] so do I have to, I’m not gonna, gonna skip answering that quick. Fine. Because I can’t, No, I won’t skip it, but I will say that it’s, it’s a hard question for me to answer honestly. I don’t, I don’t know what my therapy jam is because I enjoy doing different things. So, and I really believe that it, it’s, it’s kind of meeting the person where they’re at, you know?
And where that is can be so many different places. I mean, you, and, and, and furthermore, you know, I’m a real advocate of long term. And you start out on one thing and you, and you, you totally find other things that are there. Like I’ve had, you know, people in a therapy experience that have been in therapy for, you know, a year, year and a half.
And then they, and then they finally find the ability to share some of the things that they went through with like molestations or, you know, different trauma realities that they’ve never talked about it, you know, with anybody before I had a guy talking about his Vietnam experience mm-hmm. after many months of therapy.
For irritability and depression, and he talked to [00:26:00] me about his Vietnam experience for the very first time. I don’t know what my jam is, marriage and trauma. And, but, and
John-Nelson Pope: that can take years. And that’s why I have sometimes have issues with trauma. I mean, not trauma, but therapy sessions only, like for EAPs and I, Yeah.
Employee assistance programs, you only give them two or three or even six. Right. That’s not enough.
Chris Gazdik: Oftentimes, oftentimes, absolutely couldn’t, couldn’t agree more. Mm. So I think I wanna get to our EMDR thing, Taking an inventory. We had some hard stops and we’re gonna have a shorter show this time.
You, you guess, I guess you got a couple of, of ideas. Maybe we’ll spin these into the next couple shows to kind of further get to know you. But I was gonna ask, what is a moment that you know, you had in your therapy practice? That you just weren’t prepared for in school, right? Like what? Yeah, like, holy cow.
You, you, John, you actually, I think already gave [00:27:00] one, and Victoria, you kind of did one as well. If you guys have another one or
Kasie Morgan: Casey, you do? Yeah. So I was running a intensive outpatient group at a local hospital. She had a quick answer and yeah. And so during the middle of the first, so the way it’s set up is you do basically like three groups, three.
And you’re doing that three to four times weekly. And they come like you have a consistent closed group in those, those meetings and had really good rapport with all the participants. But they all had pretty high, high stress, high trauma backgrounds. And anyway, as I’m doing my first session, I noticed that.
My man in my group had his concealed and carry on his person. Awesome. In his holster basically up at, near his chest as ribcage . You know, and so like I saw it he was not cognizant of it. He was not threatening with a weapon. But during the first break, I let the class go and I was like, Hey, come here.
Like, I was like, We’re gonna need to walk down and put that in your car. That’s gonna need to happen, you know? And so, Luckily we had a really good rapport. He just walked down [00:28:00] freely, obviously with me. But you wanna talk about getting to a fight, flight or free situation real quick, right? Is when you notice that there is an actual live weapon in your group.
So say,
Chris Gazdik: so did, did
John-Nelson Pope: I retraumatize you by telling you my story?
Kasie Morgan: No, I don’t think so. So I think it would just, it really insight like gave me some insight though, because, I, I think it could have gone a plethora of ways, you know? Mm-hmm. , like even at the hospital setting. And that’s just like, well, that’s
Chris Gazdik: the thing sometimes with what we do, right?
Like things can move on the drop. Mm-hmm. of a dime. I mean, somebody just starts crying and you’re like, Whoa, what
Kasie Morgan: happened? Mm-hmm. . Well, and I think to your point, you know, earlier you were talking about like, why does security people leave? And honestly, sometimes, I feel like that adds another layer to the situation.
Mm-hmm. that could actually increase the potential violence. And so you know, and I’m not saying go out here and put yourself in unsafe situations, but I think if you have someone that isn’t familiar with mental health, assessing the safety of a situation with a person who’s experiencing [00:29:00] something mental health related, and they are too aggressive, too forward, or they come in, a lot of times that situ.
Does not end similarly. And so that’s why I really believe in community programming. Cti, which is like the community training programming for policing and things like that. And I, I, I think it’s really important that we start seeing an integration into all public services. Couldn’t interfacing
Chris Gazdik: all the time.
Nine, eight. Yeah. Is that what it is instead? The new number? Nine. Eight. Eight. We need to start talking about that. 9 88.
Kasie Morgan: Yeah, that’s the, I actually gave that to
Victoria Pendergrass: a client the other
John-Nelson Pope: day, but I would, I would say this is that sometimes if you’re not trained and you’re in Public safety, law enforcement, you do your very best and God bless you for doing that.
Absolutely. But sometimes you, what happens is the the person that’s acting out or having difficulties, serious mental illness, they end up getting handcuffed behind their backs. Mm-hmm. , and they are manhandled and I think dangerous, [00:30:00] dangerous. , and I think it’s dangerous for, for, certainly for the public safety officers mm-hmm.
the, the police, but also for the person that is being
Chris Gazdik: detained. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a pretty hot button issue. I, I’m, I’m gonna save time and not answer other than to say I had like a psychiatric. Emergency with a psychotic person in a hospital. That flamed out immediately on me. And then I had like, you know, being into jail for, for the first time as, as just out of school, like, you know, fetal positioned, suicidal, padded room, jail situation.
I’m like, Wow. Supposed to do an evaluation here. Like, Wow. Either of you two, John or Victoria, do you have, do you have anything you wanna add before we, What comes to
Victoria Pendergrass: mind For me in my internship? I did my internship in Morganton, North Carolina for my grad school, and I had this one client. who? He, He’s my oldest client I’ve ever had.
I think he was like 70 something at the time.
Kasie Morgan: I’m John’s gonna, [00:31:00] I’ve had at that point. That’s right. Gary,
Chris Gazdik: on my very last, John, if you didn’t know
Victoria Pendergrass: guys, on my very last session, he. I already kind of like was thinking he might have some attachment related to something. But he told me that he would tra when I told him that I was leaving, that it would like, this was our last session.
I kind of prepped him for that. He told me that he would drive or travel like 300 miles for me to con to continue to be his therapist. And I was like okay. Like, I like didn’t say how to. So I, thankfully that was our very last session, and I like, did not give him any kind of hints of like, where I would be going next.
But as an intern, like I was not prepared for like school. No one tells you like, what, what are you supposed to say when a client is like, I will follow you anywhere.
Chris Gazdik: Right? Don’t think of What about Bob? You know the
Victoria Pendergrass: movie, right? Yeah. Yeah. And like, Oh my God, it was so kind of like, I, I feel like I handled it pretty well.
In the [00:32:00] moment, I was kind of like, it’s
tough.
Chris Gazdik: You know, what the heck? You know, And part of what you get to see with through a therapists eyes is really like what we experience in some ways. And there’s, there’s, it’s such an honor to work with people. And, and to, to walk through a therapy experience with people, oftentimes with, with things.
Just today, somebody was talking about and literally looked at me and was like, I’ve, I’ve never told anybody or talked to anybody about these things. It’s like, Oh my gosh. You know that there’s some incredible moments that you have and, and sometimes you just can’t be prepared. You just have to be genuine in the moment with, with, with someone.
Right? Yeah.
John-Nelson Pope: I think that’s a humbling moment. Very humble because you, they. invited you into their lives and they have made themselves absolutely vulnerable and that you would show the, the, the core condition of being genuine and authentic. Yeah. Transparent.
Kasie Morgan: Absolutely. Forne Brown would say that vulnerability is the most courageous behavior a person can display.
And, and I would agree with that, that vulnerability, like [00:33:00] literally giving of yourself, about yourself to another person, a stranger, even if it’s the first time meeting someone. And letting them in to like the deepest and sincere parts of your life, the scariest parts, that that is a tough venture to go through.
Yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: I think about like someone like that. I mean, think of all the other people they interact with in their life and they choose you. Mm-hmm. . To be the one to like open up to. It’s humbling. It’s incredibly
Chris Gazdik: humbling. Yeah. It’s such an honor. I mean, huge honor to do what, what we do. Let’s get into EMDR a little bit.
So this is a, this is a kind of a current event. I heard a show about it. Casey, I was gonna throw it over to you. You like beamed when EMDR came up. Now, for those of you that don’t know, EMDR is, What does EMDR stand for? Eye
Kasie Morgan: movement is, is sensitive show. I would, could tried. Sorry,
Chris Gazdik: what she said. Yeah, what she.
Yeah, there’s a, That’s what she said. There’s , We won’t go there. There’s a whole theory, a, a modality of operating in therapy. You [00:34:00] may have heard it’s very, very popular now. It’s going around a lot EMDR for, for trauma and, and they claim for, for other things. So I, I’m just curious what you’ve beaming about what you, what do you think Casey, about E M
Kasie Morgan: D R?
Different strokes for different folks. Right. So I think that it can be a very effective. Given the, a consistent population that it’s done with, I’ve seen a lot of success in comorbid populations, which means mental health and like substance abuse or mental health in another condition. Right. I have seen it be very successful with that when there’s an underlying current of trauma.
As far as a trauma based practice only, it is not my favorite to be honest.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Okay. Well, John, I wanna pull you off cause I know, sorry, I know you got a lot here and, and Victoria, have you ever heard of EMDR as far as
Victoria Pendergrass: personally never conducted an EMDR session. Yeah, but I, you know, obviously they teach us about it in school, [00:35:00] so yeah, I kind of have the gist of what it does.
And I’ve seen it on like an episode of Grey’s Anatomy. Who did? Oh, cool. They did emdr. Oh really?
Chris Gazdik: Yeah, but we are getting ingrained into our culture. I think it’s super cool. So it’s on a, a popular TV show that they’re actually doing an EMDR session. That’s pretty cool. I, I think that it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s such an interesting topic cuz Casey.
I, I wonder a lot about neurology. Mm-hmm. and how the brain works and whatnot. And I saw how you lit up with that. And that’s been my experience it at the start or in theory about it. And I went to a conference about it and I was, to use a word, John, skeptical at best at the end of that, that training I was skeptical at, at best to, to repeat that.
And what I mean is it seems really, really cool. But there were some real problems that I had in my mind about how this works and what I was seeing in [00:36:00] this, in this training. And this was about halfway through my career to where I’m at now too. So it’s, it’s been a little while ago. John, I know you’re chomping at the bit and we, we, we heard the same show.
Yes. Right. So I want to bring you into this and ask. Because cuz there’s a lot of controversy I think about this. But again, Casey, I think, I wonder if we’ve been duped. Okay. So if, if you could, I don’t think so. If you can ask this, If I could have
John-Nelson Pope: asked, He’s setting me up to be the bad guy and I’m not.
Well, no.
Kasie Morgan: Right. I love, I I think, Go ahead,
John-Nelson Pope: Shapiro. She’s the one, she was walking through a park one day and she was, her mind was distracted and she was having some issues. Mm-hmm. . And what happens?
Kasie Morgan: I thought she was watching a tennis match. She was watching a tennis match, I thought.
John-Nelson Pope: No, there was another one where, Okay, go ahead.
So just No, no, no. That’s okay.
Kasie Morgan: No, go ahead. I was just listening.
John-Nelson Pope: So she was, she, and so she was distracted. Mm-hmm. . And so she she figured [00:37:00] out that a lot of her issues that she had in that particular area was Was in a sense she was relieved. Mm-hmm. . And so she was able, and she did some studying about this and she connected it with some movements of the eyes.
And that’s what, that was the key of that. And so there’s variety of how that’s accomplished in’t it. By tapping or by
Chris Gazdik: bilateral movement? Bilateral movement. Hemisphere of the brain, then the left hemisphere in various patterns. Yes.
John-Nelson Pope: So, So my skepticism is,
Chris Gazdik: Let me, let me ask, I wanted to try, I fumbled my question be, if I could ask you before you heard their show right, what would you previously have thought?
about EMDR a year ago, or,
John-Nelson Pope: I was skeptical. So you were skeptical? I was, I’ve been skeptical since around 2007, 2008. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. And so, Cause [00:38:00] even then it was starting to, to be used with veterans and
Chris Gazdik: people coming. Oh, you’ve always been tapped into that
John-Nelson Pope: particular process and so, Right. But it’s, it’s being used by BA.
Yeah. And I think there’s the I think it’s evidence based. Mm-hmm. , is there sufficient empirical studies on that? Right. So it’s not just a, a, a qualitative, but a quantitative.
Kasie Morgan: Yeah. I, I, I wholeheartedly believe in bilateral movement being a supplement or a supplant to therapy to talk therapy to be able to assist.
Mm-hmm. , someone shifting their brain from the downstairs survival place of the brain into the frontal lobe. I think that’s, that’s, yeah, that’s a hundred percent accurate. Go from the Olympic system. from the limbic system of the brain where the it, where it literally attaches to your nervous system up to the frontal lo Because what happens when we get dysregulated or when we get kind of distracted and things like that is, [00:39:00] is that our body and brain remember exactly what we went through in a scenario.
And so something that’s really benign or simple can set us off in a trajectory that is harmful to ourselves. Other people. Mm-hmm. can make us re-experience. When we’re like, what in the heck is actually happening? It can be positive or negative, like when I walk through. And I smell Este by Este Lauder.
I’m immediately reminded of my grandmother and memories I have with my grandmother. Mm-hmm. , it’s a very positive experience for me. The same thing can happen at any point in time with maybe smelling blueberry muffins. It reminds me of the person that abused me. And so it it like it. It can go either direction.
So the body and brain remembers. So when the brain goes off, when it flips its lid and you go into the reptilian brain or using the downstairs part, I do believe that doing something in the immediacy, Can be very effective in getting you back to a place of regulation, but it is not long
John-Nelson Pope: term. That’s the, that was back in [00:40:00] 2000 and and seven and 2008.
That’s how it was presented, that this will, this is a panacea. This will take care of it immediately.
Chris Gazdik: Generally, when you come across a panacea, have an. Right. Right, right,
John-Nelson Pope: right. And that was, that was my initial skepticism about that actually, I, I’ve had emdr Sure. Done to me because I have some ptsd Yeah.
That, that I live with. I, I would say that if. If there was a relief for that, it was, it was very temporary. Mm-hmm. . But there was a sense that I could process it later on. I think you have to have some sort of Other type of therapy that will have it stored in long term memory. Those, because that’s a part of the problem with
Chris Gazdik: Exactly.
And, and that’s the key in, in, in my mind. I, I, I think that there’s absolutely some efficacy here with [00:41:00] emdr, I did a special operations uhhuh military personnel that I was working with, and it was super cool and I just did a, a mock EMDR for the immediate benefit. Looking at a spot in this side of the room and then a spot in this side of the room.
And he went back and forth and he got, he went back and forth maybe 15 times and he looked and he stops and he looked like, What was that? Mm-hmm. . I was like, I don’t know. What was that? Pretty cool, huh? And he’s like, Yeah. So there is there. I think what we’re dealing with is we’re dealing with neurology.
Mm-hmm. , we’re dealing with, with, with brain synapsis and what happens with trauma and, and the connections that we can make, we can, we can disconnect them in, in the immediacy. However, like you, I think you landed on John, the key is, And, and the research backs this up, that you have to combine that with the talk therapies because when you have, when you have EMDR tested empirically or with double blinded studies and what all you freaking research people do that I love like [00:42:00] find that there’s no effect.
Yeah. That there’s no
John-Nelson Pope: benefit. Well, you have to, and I think that’s why we we’re, we’re homo sapiens because we are able to process what has our experiences and if we can do that. To to, to get meaning for what
Kasie Morgan: happened. Yeah, I do wanna back up cuz I would disagree that there’s no benefit. Like I think there’s no long term empirical outcome that it helps with long term based relief from traumatic symptoms.
I do believe. That there is some benefit in the immediacy to the person receiving that therapy who has tried everything that has treat and treat. Treat and resistant depression, right? Who has been to every doctor, known man, been on every SSRI there has been benefit for them? To at least have those moments of temporary relief where they are able to like breathe regularly for a little bit of time.
I think you interesting, you have to introduce other [00:43:00] skills that are gonna be long, longer term effective, but I do think that there is some positive outcomes of EMDR for that temporary relief moment. And so I don’t wanna discount it in the fact. It’s not good practice. It is resiliency based. It helps you shift the focus of the brain and the immediacy.
There are really good skills that can come from it, but as the sole purpose of long term trauma based therapy. Not effective. But
Chris Gazdik: yeah, I think we’re, we’re really kind of landing in the same space. Yeah. I did pull off an article that was, that was cool, that, that gave Some skepticism, I guess if you’d use the word John.
So they said, So basically, so does EMDR really work? And the short answer is yes. Dot, dot, dot, right? Yeah. Kind of. Right. And they said, But there was a catch. This is a quote from the article. The psychologists who had experienced with the cognitive behavioral treatment prolonged exposure, recognized many of the components of the new therapy.
The only difference they saw was the addition of the eye movement feature, [00:44:00] emdr defining characteristic. Mm-hmm. . Right. So following the flood of positive research, another wave of EMDR studies was published, but this time, and John. Kind of goes, I think, to what you were talking about, but this time the studies were dismantling analysis experiments that studied which parts of the treatment were most effective.
So despite the fact that EMDR had been found to be very effective treatment for ptsd, when the eye movement portion was omitted from the treatment, the outcomes were exactly the same. Right? And that’s like, yeah. A, a, a big. So further on, and I think we’re all gonna agree with this component, totally. Like the more troubling.
Yet later in this article, it says, In recent years, therapists have claimed that EMDR effectively treats everything from major depression to schizophrenia. Mm-hmm. , which. Mm. Well, I’m, I’m doing a quote so I can’t add my own ad lib, which I already am right now, but Sure. Back to the quote. These claims are not all supported by the research.
The only treatment in which EMDR has been proven to be more [00:45:00] effective than traditional talk therapy is, in fact, ptsd. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So any other claim made by EMDR practitioners is not grounded in any research or any cogniti. Psychological sense for that matter is what they said. Well, I think
it’s,
Kasie Morgan: Oh, sorry,
John-Nelson Pope: John.
I, I was, I was gonna say that I, I use cognitive processing therapy. Yes, me too. Yes. You know, there, there’s some elements, I guess the EMDR in that, but maybe EMDR is like cognitive processing,
Kasie Morgan: what’s all born out C B T, Like cognitive behavioral therapy. Right? Like, but, but I also think that what I think is hopeful about the practices associated with EMDR and knowing that eye movement works is that as a very adaptable practice that you can take and apply to other cognitive strategies that you can use just as easily in the grocery store as you can in your therapy.
By, Yeah, By working with your own biology of your body. Yeah. You can regulate yourself. And I think that’s an important feature in a new
Chris Gazdik: way cases in, [00:46:00] in a new, new way that deals with neurology.
Kasie Morgan: Yeah, it’s true. And so I, what I am hopeful about the practice is that if anybody is listening, and they’re currently in EMDR and.
What I want you to know is that this is a great gateway and you being able to understand your body and brain and how that works. Mm-hmm. Right? And how that bilateral movement and doing something rational can pull you from an emotional space in any environment just by using some type of rational skill.
So eye movement works because it requires one of your five senses to, to perform a rational. That if you did the same kind of practice, like taking an arbitrary number, for example, like 234, and then start subtracting by seven as a rational skill mm-hmm. , it will have the same impact on your nervous system and you can use that.
Outside the therapy office in the real world, in the context of a situation that’s distressing. You would do
John-Nelson Pope: that with being able to, to if you are [00:47:00] having a agoraphobia or, Absolutely. Or like a lot of my, unfortunately, my, my PTSD clients, they can’t go to Walmart. Right. And when it’s crowded, that sort of thing.
Cause they’re always looking for that bag in the, in the middle of the road or, or they’ll swerve or they’ll have some sort of of issue. And perhaps that would be very helpful with Yes.
Chris Gazdik: The distraction. Well, I think that what we’re doing with this is, is beginning to to to refine and understand, like you said, casing spoke eloquently about like our bodies and the way that our bodies operate, such as absolutely being able to make an immediate impact on a panic attack.
Mm-hmm. with using a very similar reality. Three things that you can hear. Mm-hmm. , three things that you could feel, five things that you can see, and you literally go through that. Mm-hmm. , that’s We do. Yeah. It just, it kills a panic attack immediately. Yeah. It’s cool. Cool. Neurology based, right. New stuff.
Because
Kasie Morgan: what we recognize is that what’s happening to the nervous system. Right. And I Please cut me off on, I [00:48:00] need to be, because I could go all night, but Yeah, we’re
Chris Gazdik: gonna cut you off. 37
Kasie Morgan: seconds. Okay, So what happens to the nervous system is that what it is receiving is 34 is input from your senses, right?
It’s accepting sensations that are happening to your body. So something you’re smelling, something you’re seeing, right, something you’re hearing, you’re experiencing those sensations. The counterbalance to that is to do something with one of your sensations to perform a rational task, to retake control.
Because what happens is your nervous system gets hij. Right, and to, to counter that, you reintroduce a different sensation. So either, either using your visual acuity, your hearing ability, tactile, it can be anything of the other, even a mindful tasting exercise. By doing that, you, you are transferring the brain from being focused in that emotional center.
You drain the emotion from the nervous system, and then you reengage the frontal lobe because the brain has no choice. But to then pay attention to what you’re [00:49:00] now focusing on. When you do that with intentionality, you reset the nervous system and you become resilient in that space, and the more often you’re resilient.
The brain builds more pathways around being successful in that environment. But, But
John-Nelson Pope: Alice also did that with R E B T, and then the story for Ellis was he was trying to ask girls out for dates back in the early forties. Sure. And and he would get turned down and turned down and finally he kept doing it.
He got his, his courage up and so he, he learned that process of disputing his, his cognitive core belief. Yeah. Poor belief. Mm-hmm. . And he changed poor beliefs and he changed his
Chris Gazdik: brain. Right? Right. Literally changed again, neurology. Yeah,
Kasie Morgan: because we used, used to think that there wasn’t a lot of neuroplasticity in their brain, but there actually is.
You can actually have. All of this growth. And so yes, it is important about what has happened to
Chris Gazdik: you. And just, just to prove that real quick, and I want to go to her. [00:50:00] Can you change your neurology? Can you change your brain if you simply, This was so simple. Cool. I heard a neurologist on a show talking about it.
If you memorize somebody’s name, you have literally changed your brain. You think about that. You’ve changed the neurology makeup, their neurological makeup of your brain. What are my kids’ names? Chris, as a memory copus and. A ala. Yeah. Case your brain. Layla ala He’s so proud of me. Victoria. A lot of fancy stuff here.
What are you hearing? I want
Victoria Pendergrass: to think. Good kids. No, this is, I mean, you know me. I love hearing Casey talk cuz. Thanks. Yeah. But I mean, I just think that like, I mean, a lot of good points have been made. You know, emdr, it seems. I mean, I obviously I, like I said before, I’ve never used it. Right. But it seems like when you use it in like how it’s supposed to, and you’re not trying to tell people like, Hey, this is a long term thing, or this is something that works, but it needs to be done with talk [00:51:00] therapy.
It seems like it’s something that would be very effective, at least like how Casey was saying that immediate relief, like if they haven’t been able to breathe, and like however long, and it’s giving them that immediate relief. Like, then why, why not at least try it or at least do it? Mm-hmm. , because I mean, if that’s what works for him.
Chris Gazdik: Yeah. Very
John-Nelson Pope: cool. It’s, the training is expensive though,
Chris Gazdik: isnt it? I’m not even going there, John. Yeah. That whole thing that that a, I’m just gonna try to cut us off with that. Yeah. But then yeah,
Victoria Pendergrass: I’ve got issues there. You have Chris saying that, you know, you can do it. Out all this. Mm-hmm. like obvious.
Obviously you want the training, but I mean like you wanna get it to a point where you know, you’re teaching them to do. Things use their senses outside of your therapy office. Right. I mean, the goal, I mean that’s the goal is not to only be able to do it inside a therapy office, but be able to utilize those skills.
I think we’ll incorporate it in your like daily life. I think we’ll have our
Chris Gazdik: challenge with funneling [00:52:00] our conversation. You guys are great. Excellent conversation Will. We’ll have fun going through the next period of time with these conversations. Yeah. That is a little bit of a taste, y’all would think.
Yeah, I liked that. I loved it. Right.
John-Nelson Pope: But I could see the passion that was in Casey’s eye. I know. I know,
Kasie Morgan: right? I’m really inspired about this stuff.
Chris Gazdik: Listen, we got a lot of fun topics, guys. We’re winding down today. We’ve got an awesome panel. I think that you got a good introduction to. These guys and gals, that’s, it’s gonna be a great group and I for one, having done this with you over the last few years and really looking forward to where we’re going.
So welcome aboard mixed Victoria, Casey, you’ve been, and John, welcome aboard. We’re gonna have a lot of fun as we b blaze through this journey, so stick with us. Stay tuned. We got a lot of fun, good things to deliver to you in the coming months and maybe years. Who knows? Let’s get lit. I think. Take care.
John-Nelson Pope: You better get [00:53:00] it while it, while I can still.